Poker fans fight online gambling ban

[Pistons < Spurs]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/pcworld/20060405/tc_pcworld/125316

Poker Fans Push Online Gambling



WASHINGTON-- Three professional poker players raised the stakes in a debate over Internet gambling Tuesday, calling on Congress to reject three bills that attempt to stop U.S. residents from playing online poker.

Poker players Howard Lederer, Chris Ferguson, and Greg Raymer, joining the Poker Players Alliance at a press conference, criticized the three bills for requiring banks to monitor their customers' transactions in an attempt to stop them from using overseas gambling sites. The players questioned why poker, legal in U.S. casinos, should be illegal online.

In addition, a bill sponsored by Representative Bob Goodlatte (news, bio, voting record), a Virginia Republican, would "censor" the Internet by allowing courts to order ISPs to shut down access to offshore gambling sites, said Michael Bolcerek, president of the Poker Players Alliance. Bolcerek compared Goodlatte's bill to the Chinese government's attempts to block Internet content it doesn't like.

"Monitoring what American citizens do in their own homes, with their own money and in their own time just isn't the federal government's responsibility," added Radley Balko, policy analyst for the libertarian think tank the Cato Institute. "The government is not our babysitter."

Raymer, who won the
World Series of Poker in 2004 after qualifying for the tournament online, said Goodlatte's bill would require banks and ISPs to intrude on U.S. residents' privacy. "I don't want my ISP to be monitoring where I go on the Internet," he said.
Proposal Defended

Goodlatte disputed that his bill would allow censorship, saying it would simply give states more tools to enforce existing laws against most forms of online gambling. So far, lawmakers have had little success stopping U.S. residents from playing poker and other games at offshore sites. Online gambling is estimated to be a $12 billion business, about half coming from U.S. residents.

"This is in no way censorship," Goodlatte said. "Gambling has always been a matter that's been regulated by the states."

At a Wednesday hearing, the House of Representatives Judiciary Committee will debate Goodlatte's Internet Gambling Prohibition Act. An Internet gambling bill sponsored by Representative Jim Leach (news, bio, voting record), an Iowa Republican, was approved by the House Financial Services Committee March 15. The third bill is sponsored by Senator Jon Kyl, an Arizona Republican.

The Poker Players Alliance called on Congress to legalize online poker, saying that would allow the government to regulate and tax the game. It criticized the bills for allowing some forms of online gambling, such as horse racing bets and state lottery sales, while banning games such as poker. The bills are "blatantly hypocritical," Balko said.

But Goodlatte's bill doesn't provide any "carve outs" for horse racing or other gambling, the lawmaker said. There's some disagreement over existing federal laws governing horse racing bets, but "every other form of gambling is treated the same way" in his bill, Goodlatte said.
Poll Finds Support

The Poker Players Alliance, which represents 20,000 players, found that 74 percent of respondents in a recent survey said they disagreed with government efforts to prevent U.S. residents from playing poker online. The survey polled more than 950 U.S. residents.

The three poker players, made famous by recent television coverage of tournaments, called poker an American game that requires more skill that most forms of gambling.

"[Poker] brings incredibly diverse groups of people together," said Ferguson, wearing his trademark black cowboy hat. "Once you sit down at that table, you're all equal."

[MannyIsGod]

Its complete bullshit and its not going to pass. They have no jurisdiction offshore where these places are located and they can't stop me from performing actions on those computers that are not on US soil.

The federal government won't be happy untill they control every godamn thing I do.

[Melmart1]

The common thought is that due to the whole Abramoff thing, politicians will want to prove that they were not in his or the online gambling industry's pockets. So there is fear that it may pass.

But online gambling, particularly Poker, have just grown too much. People want it, there is a huge demand for it. And everytime they say the bubble is gonna burst, they get proven wrong. If the government passes this, look for an incredible amount of backlash.

[SequSpur]

Do you realize that some financial institutions already disclose that they do not approve transactions on their debit/credit cards that are categorized as "online gambling merchants"?

It's not just about "big brother" syndrome and censorship. It's about whiney irresponsible consumers who provide sensitive account information to websites they think are secure and/or don't read the full terms of use section because they're in such a big hurry to join the gambling craze, then call their banks/credit unions demanding their money back because they were charged more than they thought they would be. Then when hundreds or thousands of dollars disappear from your account, you suddenly want to hold someone else accountable.....

That's what it's about...

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

"Monitoring what American citizens do in their own homes, with their own money and in their own time just isn't the federal government's responsibility," added Radley Balko, policy analyst for the libertarian think tank the Cato Institute. "The government is not our babysitter."

Looks like it's time to go libertarian. Total joke.

[SequSpur]

Get a real job.

[MannyIsGod]

Get a real job.Fuck off, Kevin. Just because you have to get your ass up and go to work each day to make less, don't knock it. You're always making snide comments about this, well fuck you.

And now this proposed legislatino is about "whiney irresponsible customers"? Get a fucking clue, its about senators trying to look as though they're doing something and people like you falling for it hook line and sinker. It is just like a smoking ban, the lawsuits against cigarettes, the legislation against strip clubs, mandatory health care, and all the other pieces of useless legislation that make it look as though your elected official is solving a problem that wouldn't be a problem if "solving it" didn't earn them votes.

If people are irresponsible with their money, then that is THEIR problem and has nothing to do with the government. Its a double fucking standard because I guarntee you the IRS isn't going to return the money I'm going to pay in taxes at the end of the year. Sure, the government doesn't want you to gamble UNLESS you're buying their lottery tickets.

I'm flat out sick and tired of being told by the government what I can do and what I should do. They need to worry about shit that is actually in their purview which they constantly fuck up and let people live their own lives.

[MannyIsGod]

Looks like it's time to go libertarian. Total joke.I'm telling you dude, the Cato think tank is a smart group of people.

[T Park]

aboslutely pathetic.

America needs to start waking up to this government.


This is getting pathetic.

[T Park]

Get a real job.

You know Kevin, I usually tell you fuck you in a joking matter.

But what is it your business, or anyone elses what Manny does for a living.

As long as hes not bothering anyone else, WTF is the problem?

God damn.

[SoCalSpursFan]

I'm all in.

[AFE7FATMAN]

You want to know what gambling does for a town.

Look at Tunica, Mississippi

5 years ago not more than a run down indian casino

Run tunica on goggle now.
It is better than Vegas, less people, and you can always watch the griz and spurs play.
The growth in Tunica has also spread to Memphis and the surrouning metro plex,even into "God forbid Arkansas"

I go to Shreveport and Lake Charles quite often and 90% of the cars and Rv's in the parking lot are from TEXAS

I don't gamble on line but it should be allowed.

[Jimcs50]

The Govt is just pissed that they are not making any money off of this. You know that the mob and the casinos right here is the USA are lobbying for this legislation, and the politicans are getting money from these wise guys...it is all about money with this govt. From this unlawful war for oil, to the laws against marajuana(lobbied against by the pharmaceutical companies), this country is as corrupt as any govt in our history.

I am sick of it. But I will not do a damn thing about it, as no one will...so it continues.

[GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI]

The Gov't is actually making some money off of Online Poker, most online pro's who put in substantial wins pay taxes on their winnings.

[katyon6th]

I'm all in.

Damnit, that's what I was going to say!

[samikeyp]

It's not just about "big brother" syndrome and censorship. It's about whiney irresponsible consumers who provide sensitive account information to websites they think are secure and/or don't read the full terms of use section because they're in such a big hurry to join the gambling craze, then call their banks/credit unions demanding their money back because they were charged more than they thought they would be. Then when hundreds or thousands of dollars disappear from your account, you suddenly want to hold someone else accountable.....

People have the God-given right to be dumbasses. If they blow their money on internet gambling, so be it. They know the risks and if they still decide to take those risks, then they have that right. If they refuse to know the risks then they get what they deserve.

[Jimcs50]

The Gov't is actually making some money off of Online Poker, most online pro's who put in substantial wins pay taxes on their winnings.

The US Govt is not making any money at all on this. Do you think the house or the players make the money? The players make money, but the rake makes more money than any player. Since this is run in other countries, the US makes no money at all on the income of these gambling businesses. What poker player declares any winnings??? None, because over all he is a loser, and the losses make up for the winnings, so there is no reporting of any income neccessary.

[GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI]

People who make a living DO pay taxes on their winnings. Of course the Govt is not making as much as they would if they could tax the online casinos. But if that was the case, why not just legalize online gambling instead of making it illegal??

[Jimcs50]

People who make a living DO pay taxes on their winnings. Of course the Govt is not making as much as they would if they could tax the online casinos. But if that was the case, why not just legalize online gambling instead of making it illegal??

Do you know the percentage of people who play online who make a living on poker, who pay taxes???

Probably 1 in 100,000 people, max.

That would not be enough money to buy lunch for a Senator for a year.

[GINNNNNNNNNNNNOBILI]

Do you know the percentage of people who play online who make a living on poker, who pay taxes???

Probably 1 in 100,000 people, max.

That would not be enough money to buy lunch for a Senator for a year.

Are you saying that 1 - 100,000 people who make a living in online poker pay taxes on their winnings?? Cuz if you are, that number is way off base.

If someone didn't have a job yet still showed 50k+ income a year, I'm guessing that raise some red flags with the IRS.

[MannyIsGod]

It is pretty safe to say that a large percentage of the people who are making money online are reporting it as income. The actual percentage of people who are winning money online is something I haven't a clue about and it is probably far smaller than the percentage of people who are overall losers in the long run.

But people who play professionaly do for the most part pay taxes just like everyone else. Its just not worth the risk of having large sums of money noticed by the IRS. There are discussion forums on the internet where there are entire forums dedicated to tax questions.

Part of it is about money. If the government was taxing the revenue generated by some of these companies it would be a substantial influence on them wanting to make it illegal or not. But they have no one to blame but themselves in regards to pushing these companies offshore. The justice department and its moral crusade against online gambling has forced it.

There's simply no reason the government should be telling grown adults what they can and can't do with their money. Thats the bottom line.

[Jimcs50]

Are you saying that 1 - 100,000 people who make a living in online poker pay taxes on their winnings?? Cuz if you are, that number is way off base.

If someone didn't have a job yet still showed 50k+ income a year, I'm guessing that raise some red flags with the IRS.

No, I am saying that 1/100,000 people online, are playing poker for a living. The other 99,999 of us do it for fun.

99% of people do not win enough over what they lose to declare any income off the winnings.

The US makes no money off these gamblers

[T Park]

The people that make money off of it, HAVE to report it.

I mean, that 100 grand or 50 grand a year is hard to explain sitting at home looking at porn all day

[Jimcs50]

The people that make money off of it, HAVE to report it.

I mean, that 100 grand or 50 grand a year is hard to explain sitting at home looking at porn all day

1 in 1,000,000 make 50K a year in online poker, I assure you.

[SequSpur]

Blow me. Get a job.

[T Park]

Yeah Jim, whatever you say.

Those are "unlawful" numbers.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

If the government were smart, they'd legalize it and tax it, and get money from the casinos.

But like someone said, the players behind the major casinos here in this country have their money in the pockets of a lot of folks up in DC (on both sides of the aisle).

[SequSpur]

I don't like the fact that the govt is kind've trying to regulate it either. But what do you expect? I believe most online poker casinos are "offshore". or maybe all of them. I don't know and I don't care. So doesn't that make it look kind've shady.... oh smart one.

I play every now and then... big deal...

but be prepared for the day that Manny Ivey has to fill out an application...

Why did you leave your last job?

Because I went all in with AK and some punk ass with a 3 6 called me and the flop came and dropped a 3 on me and I lost the WSOP. :lmao

Poker is Gambling. Gambling is luck. Less than .01% can make a living doing it.

Good luck to you.

All in!

[T Park]

But like someone said, the players behind the major casinos here in this country have their money in the pockets of a lot of folks up in DC (on both sides of the aisle).


Lobbyists are a powerfull thing...

[Mark in Austin]

Interesting...

When a big corporation uses a loophole in the law to perform an activity (tax shelter) offshore that is regulated in the states, it's a slimy, offensive practice and the government should close the loophole.

When an individual uses a loophole in the law to perform an activity (gambling) offshore that is regulated in the states, the government should back the fuck off and not close the loophole.

_______________________________

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but it seems to me that gambling should either be legalized, or the offshore ban should be put in place. To keep things like they are now just doesn't make any sense.

[MannyIsGod]

I don't like the fact that the govt is kind've trying to regulate it either. But what do you expect? I believe most online poker casinos are "offshore". or maybe all of them. I don't know and I don't care. So doesn't that make it look kind've shady.... oh smart one.

I play every now and then... big deal...

but be prepared for the day that Manny Ivey has to fill out an application...

Why did you leave your last job?

Because I went all in with AK and some punk ass with a 3 6 called me and the flop came and dropped a 3 on me and I lost the WSOP. :lmao

Poker is Gambling. Gambling is luck. Less than .01% can make a living doing it.

Good luck to you.

All in!Everygame in a casino is gambling yet somehow the house never goes broke. I wonder why that is?

I don't understand what your deal is. Its as if you're hoping for me to fail just so you can say "I told you so". Well, whatever dude. If I fall flat on my face doing this then I'll post on here so that you can get on top of your high chair and scream out loud that you were right and I was wrong.

Whatever dude, but I don't think you should come up to me as if everything is OK next time I see you at a GTG.

[MannyIsGod]

Interesting...

When a big corporation uses a loophole in the law to perform an activity (tax shelter) offshore that is regulated in the states, it's a slimy, offensive practice and the government should close the loophole.

When an individual uses a loophole in the law to perform an activity (gambling) offshore that is regulated in the states, the government should back the fuck off and not close the loophole.

_______________________________

I don't really have a dog in this fight, but it seems to me that gambling should either be legalized, or the offshore ban should be put in place. To keep things like they are now just doesn't make any sense.I think it is way different than your analogy put it, Mark. When corporations use loopholes, they do so on laws that are put into place for the benefit of society IE environmental concerns. However, gambling legislation is just another example of the government legislating morality.

[SequSpur]

This message is hidden because MannyIsGod is on your ignore list.

There you go. Now you can go play in your corner and I can go play in mine. Now I won't be tempted to be critical of anyone taking up Texas holdem as a career.

Good Luck.

[T Park]

god Sequ, what are you, 5??

Im in your corner Manny.

Grow the fuck up Sequ.

[SequSpur]

Yeah, I guess so. I guess I went a little to far with Mr. Sensitive. It's okay. Life goes on. Maybe one day I'll see him on ESPN.

[T Park]

with Mr. Sensitive


Hes not sensitive.

Your mocking his way of life.


In fact, you do the same to me, and I dont apreciate it either.

I applaud Manny for how he makes his living, in fact, I hope he IS on ESPN one day so I can say I know that guy.


Youve honestly crossed from forum clown to asshat extrodinare.


I think you should apologize immediately and lay off.
In fact, its the same thing you do to me and I honestly don't apreciate it.

[kris]

Hes not sensitive.

Your mocking his way of life.


In fact, you do the same to me, and I dont apreciate it either.

I applaud Manny for how he makes his living, in fact, I hope he IS on ESPN one day so I can say I know that guy.


Youve honestly crossed from forum clown to asshat extrodinare.


I think you should apologize immediately and lay off.
In fact, its the same thing you do to me and I honestly don't apreciate it.

*BLUE BLUE BLUE*

Alright sir, what's the problem today?

[midgetonadonkey]

I heard an advertisement on Howard Stern that WSEX.COM, it's not a sex site it's World Sports Exchange, has no rake poker. I have no idea what that means but they made it seem like it was pretty badass.

I know nothing of poker or online poker, I just wanted to let you poker people know.

[MannyIsGod]

Yeah, I guess so. I guess I went a little to far with Mr. Sensitive. It's okay. Life goes on. Maybe one day I'll see him on ESPN.Mr. Sensitive my ass. I guess since I'm ignore you won't read this (http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif
) but I just don't understand why you've been such a dick about this over and over again.

If its your money I took online, I'm sorry. :lol

[T Park]

*BLUE BLUE BLUE*

Alright sir, what's the problem today?

Uhhhh

I don't understand.

[kris]

Nobody does.

[Mark in Austin]

I think it is way different than your analogy put it, Mark. When corporations use loopholes, they do so on laws that are put into place for the benefit of society IE environmental concerns. However, gambling legislation is just another example of the government legislating morality.


I specifically used the tax loophole example to keep it in the monetary benefit category. I'm not talking about Carnival Cruises registering their ships in BFE or Zaire to avoid environmental and safety regulations. I was talking about when Haliburton uses a dummy subsidiary registered in the Caymans to report billions in earnings that then don't have to be taxed.

All I'm saying is either legalize gambling across the board and regulate it, or ban it. But it is silly to argue in favor of what in reality is a techinal loophole when the intent of the law is clearly to limit gambling by people in the US.

[MannyIsGod]

Well, I think its pretty clear I stand for the legalization of gambling along with a lot of other things. If its a loophole its a loophole in a law that shouldn't be on the books to begin with.

I still think there is a huge difference when talking about the actions of an individual in a home and a corporation actively seeking to defraud the government.