switch pop and flip

[theroc5]

what type of seasons would the pistons and spurs be having, what would be the results come playoff time?

[ShoogarBear]

Rasho would be back to his glory days of averaging 11 points a game.

Spurs would be headed for a first-round playoff exit.

[tim_duncan_fan]

The offense would be 100000000000000000000000000000000000000 times better.
We'd have the best record in the league.

[ChumpDumper]

You can bet your ass Ben would've gone into that game.

[T Park]

The offense would be 100000000000000000000000000000000000000 times better.
We'd have the best record in the league.

Youd also flop out in the first round to the low seed.


Get a clue.

[ShoogarBear]

You can bet your ass Ben would've gone into that game.
Or he would have not seen another game for a couple of weeks.

[rayray2k8]

Rasho would be back to his glory days of averaging 11 points a game.

Spurs would be headed for a first-round playoff exit.

So true. :lol

[TDMVPDPOY]

if pop was coachin the pistons, most of them would be in his doghouse with their prima donna attitudes.

[101A]

If Flip coached the Spurs - Spurs would have the best record in the league (because that's very important to Flip).

If Pop coached the Pistons? They would set the record for the lowest points allowed and FG% against in history. Probably 78 & 37.5% respectively. Completely SICK defense that would be.

[pache100]

Or he would have not seen another game for a couple of weeks.

Or he would have found himself playing for someone worse than the Knicks (even Malik didn't pull that shit).

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Pop would have made Ben Wallace cry after he refused to get back in the game.

[DarkReign]

Keep talking shit about Ben all you want. Queens.

[DET]

You want to switch a coach that has won championships for one that hasn't? What kind of crack are these people smoking? Duncan makes any coach look good but I will give Pop credit. He is hell bent on his team playing good defense. He is truly dedicated to defense. He is not Don Nelson preaching defense but not forcing players to defend. He has taught Avery and now we will be a defensive team. So all the other offensive coaches will go home every year without a trophy.

[101A]

You want to switch a coach that has won championships for one that hasn't? What kind of crack are these people smoking? Duncan makes any coach look good but I will give Pop credit. He is hell bent on his team playing good defense. He is truly dedicated to defense. He is not Don Nelson preaching defense but not forcing players to defend. He has taught Avery and now we will be a defensive team. So all the other offensive coaches will go home every year without a trophy.

Who said anyone wanted to switch?

It's a "What If" pointless thread, not an "if only" pointless thread.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Keep talking shit about Ben all you want. Queens.

I don't think the shit is directed at Ben as much as it is Flip. No one (at least in this thread) has said that Ben is a terrible human being for doing what he did, just that what he did wouldn't have flown with a guy like Pop.

[theroc5]

If Flip coached the Spurs - Spurs would have the best record in the league (because that's very important to Flip).

If Pop coached the Pistons? They would set the record for the lowest points allowed and FG% against in history. Probably 78 & 37.5% respectively. Completely SICK defense that would be.
thats what i was trying to point out, the spurs then would be over hyped as well just b/c of there record. kinda like the pistons are right now

[pache100]

Keep talking shit about Ben all you want. Queens.

I love Ben. Besides Tayshaun, he's my favorite Piston. But, this is wrong. He screwed up.

You wait and see. The other players in the league will be laughing at him and making jokes at his expense. Even Tim Duncan made fun of AI when he did the same thing.

[1Parker1]

If Pop coached the Pistons, their offense may not be as great, but their defense would be absolultely amazing.

[1Parker1]

Oh and Sheed would constantly be in the doghouse....

[Obstructed_View]

Oh and Sheed would constantly be in the doghouse....
Yeah. Larry Brown's doghouse.

[JamStone]

Wait, Pop would have made sure Ben got back in the game or he would have made Ben cry???

Is this the same CIA Pop who had to put his hand on a pouting and sulking Tim Duncan's leg to console and comfort him after a blowout loss in the Finals?

As hard and tough a S.O.B as Pop is, and as hardcore as Spurs fans and the media make him out to be, Pop coddles Tim Duncan, his franchise star. He can put Malik Rose and Rasho Nesterovic in the doghouse because they aren't the star players of the team.

Ben is the Pistons franchise player. I'm sorry if you don't believe this, but Ben has owned every coach he's played for since Rick Carlisle. That's why Carlisle was fired. Ben didn't like him. Larry Brown started off many games with a post-up to Ben Wallace just to appease him. Now, Ben refuses to go into a game, and not so much as a fine or a slap on the wrist by the team.

Pop would get fired if he said shit to Ben Wallace.

I don't agree with it. I don't think it's right. But, that's the truth.

You Spurs fans can claim all you want about how Pop is just as hard on Tim as he is on any other player. Why the fuck do you need to console Tim Duncan, the greatest power forward of all time and multiple MVP winner and NBA champ, during an NBA Finals game?? If anything, the way Pop is made out, he should have got in his face and challenged his pussy ass after playing soft in that game. No, he had to put his arm around his shoulders and his other hand on his leg to tell him everything will be all right. And, if there is no favoritism, why the fuck does Eva Longoria fly on the team plane sometimes???

Yeah, Pop would have made Ben cry ... yeah, ok.

[leemajors]

he wouldn't have made him cry, but he wouldn't have let that situation come to a head like that during a game. sounds like something that should have been hashed out in practice or the locker room. if what JamStone is saying about Wallace being in control of the team like that, i have just lost a lot of respect for Joe Dumars. players don't need to have that sort of influence.

[JamStone]

I agree it shouldn't be that way, but that's reality. Why the heck would Dumars fire Rick Carlisle after two 50-win seasons? Chauncey and Rip liked Carlisle. Carlisle drew up all the offensive sets for them to shoot the ball. It was Ben who had gotten pissed off at Carlisle. Ben is the reason Carlisle was sent packing.

With Larry Brown, it was more of the drama Brown brought to the team, but make no mistake, Ben Wallace had grown tired of him as well. And, I'm sorry, even as a Pistons fan, I don't see any point of Ben Wallace getting any plays drawn up for him on offense other than to appease him. It makes no sense otherwise.

Not much Joe Dumars can do about it though when you think about it. Ben Wallace is the player that turned this franchise around. There's no ifs, ands, or buts about it. He is the reason and the foundation of how the Pistons became such a great team.

The incident in Orlando told me that Ben Wallace thinks he's bigger than the team. And, yes, that's upsetting in itself. Flip does not run this team. The players do. And, that includes Chauncey. The thing is, it's hard to argue with the results right now.

My fear is that in 3-4 years, when Ben's athleticism starts to really show a decided decline, he will make an uproar about diminishing minutes. I can very well see that happening.

The good thing for now and probably over the following season or two, this core team is so good, something like this won't be much of a problem. Hopefully, it will be enough to keem them title contenders for the next 2-3 years ... hopefully, at least 2 more after this one.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Sorry, I forget that sarcasm doesn't show through as clearly as I would like on the internet. I don't honestly believe that Ben Wallace would be reduced to tears by anyone yelling at him. All I meant was that Pop has blistered guys for botching routine defensive rotations I can only imagine how badly he would go off on a guy refusing to go into a game. I actually would like to see those fireworks.

So, in conclusion: Pop would yell at Ben if he were in Flip Saunders position. He would NOT make Ben Wallace cry. Sorry if I offended anyone here. I just want to put the past behind me and keep on rolling.

[JamStone]

I caught the sarcasm. I even disagreed with the actual notion.

Pop would NOT have yelled at Ben. That's my point.

[pache100]

I caught the sarcasm. I even disagreed with the actual notion.

Pop would NOT have yelled at Ben. That's my point.

Maybe not in your organization. Down here, Pop runs things on the court and on the bench. But, you're probably right about the yelling anyway. Pop has myriad ways of getting his point across. He really doesn't yell that much outside the locker room (at least not at his players). I've heard more than one of them say it's not Pop's yelling that you have to worry about...it's when he gets really quiet and quits talking to you at all...then, be very afraid. The first to say this was David Robinson. I heard Malik say it, too.

[CubanMustGo]

I caught the sarcasm. I even disagreed with the actual notion.

Pop would NOT have yelled at Ben. That's my point.

Hell, Pop yells at EVERYONE.

[bdubya]

Sorry, I forget that sarcasm doesn't show through as clearly as I would like on the internet. I don't honestly believe that Ben Wallace would be reduced to tears by anyone yelling at him. All I meant was that Pop has blistered guys for botching routine defensive rotations I can only imagine how badly he would go off on a guy refusing to go into a game. I actually would like to see those fireworks.

So, in conclusion: Pop would yell at Ben if he were in Flip Saunders position. He would NOT make Ben Wallace cry. Sorry if I offended anyone here. I just want to put the past behind me and keep on rolling.

If Popavein were coaching, Ben would never have refused to re-enter the game, because Pop would already have gone ballistic over the same lackadaisical effort that had Ben so pissed off.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Wow, it's hard to picture Pop in an environment where he couldn't yell at everyone. I'm sorry if I'm coming across as obnoxious Jamstone, I honestly wasn't aware that Big Ben had that kind of pull with management.

Still, knowing what I know of Pop I'm not convinced he wouldn't have hit Ben with every curse word in the Serbian language even if it did mean the unemployment line.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

If Popavein were coaching, Ben would never have refused to re-enter the game, because Pop would already have gone ballistic over the same lackadaisical effort that had Ben so pissed off. :tu

[bdubya]

....I honestly wasn't aware that Big Ben had that kind of pull with management.

He doesn't. I don't know where JamStone is getting this stuff, but Ben's power is exactly what you'd expect from the team leader and co-captain, no more and no less. IOW, people listen to him, but he does NOT call the shots; Davidson and Dumars do.

[JamStone]

Wow, it's hard to picture Pop in an environment where he couldn't yell at everyone. I'm sorry if I'm coming across as obnoxious Jamstone, I honestly wasn't aware that Big Ben had that kind of pull with management.

Still, knowing what I know of Pop I'm not convinced he wouldn't have hit Ben with every curse word in the Serbian language even if it did mean the unemployment line.


Pop yells at his players who don't give maximum effort. When Ben is on the court, he gives maximum effort. Ben was pissed at Flip for pulling him out of the game when he did and for calling sets where he never touches the ball on the offensive end.

And, bdubya is right that Ben would likely not refuse to go back into the game for a coach like Pop.

But, that also shows you why Pop would not yell at Ben Wallace. Ben won't NOT play hard. That's when Pop gets mad.

Ben gets upset when his teammates don't play hard on defense, when his team doesn't share the basketball. That's why Ben was pissed off in the Orlando game. And, that's why Pop and Ben would not be in that position.

And, back to my earlier point, Pop coddles his star players. And, my earlier examples (comforting Tim Duncan in an NBA finals game and letting Eva Longoria fly on the team plane) demonstrate that as much.

And, I'm sorry, but Ben Wallace does have a lot of pull with his team. And, he is one of the main reasons Rick Carlisle got fired. Not the only reason, but certainly one of the main reasons. Joe Dumars even intimated in interviews that it wasn't his idea to fire Rick Carlisle when he did. Carlisle somehow ticked off Bill Davidson. But, Carlisle also lost the respect of his players, most specifically Ben Wallace.

And, if 90% of any other player in the NBA refused to go back into the game, that player would be fined, suspended, or otherwise reprimanded by the team. Ben Wallace was not and will not be. That is more pull than just a team leader and captain.

[kskonn]

Pop does allow a lot for all the players not just the stars. I believe he is very laxed when it comes to allowing family to travel on road trips, not just eva. I have also been at games where Tim, tony, and Manu have not come out showing great effort and Pop benches them. However I have also been at games where Tim, or more usually Manu or Tony get benched for missing a rotation or going under a screen when they were instructed to go over.

I will also back jamstone on his other point about star power. If Tim wanted something it would happen. Just like when malik and AD got shipped out you will never convince me that tim did not allow that to happen. Or Tony getting re-signed, both Pop and Tim went and spoke with Holt about that situation. The stars have power like it or not.

I can understand Bens frustration this team became successfull by preaching and playing defense. Now for the first time he has a coach that does not stress defense first. That is a frustrating situation even for a class act like Ben.

[pache100]

Pop does allow a lot for all the players not just the stars. I believe he is very laxed when it comes to allowing family to travel on road trips, not just eva. I have also been at games where Tim, tony, and Manu have not come out showing great effort and Pop benches them. However I have also been at games where Tim, or more usually Manu or Tony get benched for missing a rotation or going under a screen when they were instructed to go over.

I will also back jamstone on his other point about star power. If Tim wanted something it would happen. Just like when malik and AD got shipped out you will never convince me that tim did not allow that to happen. Or Tony getting re-signed, both Pop and Tim went and spoke with Holt about that situation. The stars have power like it or not.

I can understand Bens frustration this team became successfull by preaching and playing defense. Now for the first time he has a coach that does not stress defense first. That is a frustrating situation even for a class act like Ben.

Not contesting any of that. But, you will never see Tim Duncan refusing to go into a game (except when he was imitating AI and he was kidding). That is the epitomy of unprofessional behavior on the basketball court and outside Tim's (or Pop's) realm. If you do see it, I'll eat my hat.

[anthologyct]

I don't think the shit is directed at Ben as much as it is Flip. No one (at least in this thread) has said that Ben is a terrible human being for doing what he did, just that what he did wouldn't have flown with a guy like Pop.

Look guys, there's nothin' wrong with Flip, nothin' wrong with Ben, nothin' wrong with the Pistons as a team.

Just a couple comments ..........

If Duncan had done the same thing Ben did ............ Pop would have been powerless to do anything about it. What are you gonna do, sit Duncan and suspend him for the Playoffs? "Oh yeah, I'm real powerful, My name is Coach Pop ........ I'll lose home court advantage in the playoffs, and possibly a 1st round series because I have to prove that I'm in charge!" Whatever, get real y'all!

He could have yelled and screamed, like he does at Tony Parker, it wouldn't have mattered. So everybody get off Pop's d*ck, OK!? Y'all act like Pop would have slapped Michael Jordan or somethin' if he'd done the same.

............................................

Also, somebody said, ................. if you guys had Flip Saunders, you'd lose in the first round. Is that person actually suggesting that Detroit is going to lose to Philly or Chicago?

............................................

Lastly, about coaching and leadership ......... it starts from the top. Nobody here doubts how good Joe Dumars is. He's a man's man. And we in Detroit feel equally about Coach Pop .

Detroit and San Antonio are the 2 best run organizations in basketball, probably in all of professional sports. Yet, each has a different style of leadership. In San Antonio, I see you guys have having very mild-mannered players. That's why you have to have a very hard-nosed coach like Pop. And for the very same reason, you couldn't maintain guys like Steven Jackson on your team.

In Detroit, he have very hard-nosed, and hard-head players, who for the most part police themselves. That's why LB didn't work out. We needed a guy like Flip. And that's why a guy like Darko who wasn't self motivating couldn't work out.

In the end, you still have 2 very good teams, and whatever is needed to get the job done, the organizations do. And that's all that matters in the end.

[x0xbillupsx0x]

what type of seasons would the pistons and spurs be having, what would be the results come playoff time?
larry brown was a new coach for the pistons so having a nerw coach does not make much of a diffrence to pistons they actually want it more now to prove to every1 it wasn't just larry brown who won them the title it was also them!

[bdubya]

I agree that for a player to refuse to go back into the game ain't right; but this was a case of somebody doing the wrong thing for the right reasons. Ben has already admitted it was a mistake, and adding any punishment on top of that would be pointless. Yeah, most coaches probably would, just to say "RESPECT MY AUTHORI-TAH!!", but I credit Flip for knowing that's not necessary in this case. He's not an ass-kicking kind of coach, and with this team, he doesn't NEED to be. There's ZERO danger of this becoming a pattern, or a problem, or anything other than a single loss at a time the team can afford one. Maybe 90% of the players in the league would have been fined or suspended for such a move, but Ben's not in that 90%, and there's no need for Flip to pretend otherwise.

[Obstructed_View]

Maybe I don't know the whole story, but Pop would never coddle a player that even tried to refuse to enter a game. Period. He might get fired, but he's not going to be too intimidated by the prospect of losing his job to tell Ben Wallace to get into the game. Ben Wallace may be a captain, but he's a role player, and carries a FRACTION of the clout Tim Duncan does, so comparing the two in a similar situation is stupid. Duncan would never refuse to enter a game, which is another reason why Wallace is nowhere near his peer.

[pache100]

Maybe I don't know the whole story, but Pop would never coddle a player that even tried to refuse to enter a game. Period. He might get fired, but he's not going to be too intimidated by the prospect of losing his job to tell Ben Wallace to get into the game. Ben Wallace may be a captain, but he's a role player, and carries a FRACTION of the clout Tim Duncan does, so comparing the two in a similar situation is stupid. Duncan would never refuse to enter a game, which is another reason why Wallace is nowhere near his peer.

Now, THAT I agree with. 100%.

[JamStone]

The argument was never that Tim Duncan would not have refused to go back into the game.

The argument was that if Ben Wallace refused to go in the game with Pop as head coach, Pop wouldn't be able to do anything, just like Flip couldn't do anything.

No there are all sorts of variables involved with the hypothetical. First, as mentioned, if Pop was the coach, Ben probably would not ever likely refuse to go back into a game. Ben refusing to go back into the game is more of an indictment of Flip's control over the team than it says anything about Pop. Also, as I mentioned, Pop gets upset when his players don't play hard during the game. It doesn't matter that Pop has pulled Tim or Manu or Tony out of a game when they haven't played hard. That's not analagous to Ben refusing to go back into the game. Ben plays hard when he's in the game. That's not the issue.

I agree that it was unprofessional and disrespectful for Ben not to go back into the game.

The arguments being made that Tim Duncan would never do that has nothing to do with what the reaction Pop would have if he were Detroit's coach. It doesn't. I just said that if Ben refused to go back in the game, Pop wouldn't have been able to do anything either. And, I don't think Pop would have yelled at him.


And, I read somewhere that wives generally don't get to fly on the Spurs team plane. Eva has been an exception, not a rule. And, let's remember Eva is not a "wife." She's a girlfriend. I'd be surprised if any other wife other than maybe Amy has been allowed to fly with the team. Again, showing how Pop coddles his stars.

Taking a player out doesn't show Pop is hard or tough on his stars. Now, if Pop ever got in Duncan's face and started cursing him out during a game, then maybe I could see Pop yelling at Ben. Has Pop ever singled out Tim during the game and started cursing him out? And, then explain why Pop had to put his arms around Duncan and on his leg when Duncan was sulking and pouting on the bench with his head down in the NBA finals late in a blowout game. If any other Spurs player pouted like that or was sulken, hunched down on the bench, I doubt Pop would go over there for a pep talk and a shoulder to cry on. Pop understand what Tim Duncan is to the Spurs team. He handled that situation very delicately because Duncan is the star of the team. Neither Flip or Pop could really get into Ben's face over an act of insubordination.

[Obstructed_View]

The argument was never that Tim Duncan would not have refused to go back into the game.
Then stop comparing any situation with Wallace to any situation with Duncan. Don't mistake the fact that Wallace is in a contract year for actual leadership clout, because if Wallace were under contract for the next five years, his ass would be a few grand lighter today. Perhaps there's a Dumars Dictum that states that Ben is to be softballed until they can get his signature, in which case any coach would have been unable to get Ben off the bench.

Since, however, we are speaking in hypotheticals, based upon personality, Pop would have gotten Ben on the floor or sent him to the locker room in that situation. It doesn't help Flip's reputation that the situation happened at all.

[JamStone]

Why not compare Duncan to Ben??? I'm not comparing their skills or abilities. I'm comparing the fact that each is their respective team's franchise player and star. And, the point of the argument is how a difference coach would react to their star franchise player refusing to go back into the game. There's a justifiable comparison in why I brought up Tim Duncan. Don't get all offended by a comparison. I didn't say Ben is as good as Duncan. Some Spurs fans get all offended just by Duncan's name being brought up. Chill out.

Tim Duncan neither has the personality or the balls to defy Pop. It would never happen. Everyone knows that.

And, sure Ben's contract situation probably played a role why Flip didn't do anything and why the Pistons didn't fine or suspend Ben. But, it's still my opinion that Pop wouldn't have done anything either, regardless of Ben's contract situation. He wouldn't have got in Ben's face. He wouldn't have yelled at him or cursed him out. He wouldn't have sent Ben to the lockers. No matter how you view Ben Wallace, he is the Detroit Pistons. I'll reiterate that I don't like the fact Ben holds as much pull as he does and can pull a stunt like that. I already said what Ben did was unprofessional and disrespectful. But, Pop would not have been able to do anything differently than Flip did in how he handled it.

[leemajors]

i think it is more that Tim Duncan has no reason to defy Pop, they get along great. Pop knows his star rises and sets with Duncan.

[JamStone]

i think it is more that Tim Duncan has no reason to defy Pop, they get along great. Pop knows his star rises and sets with Duncan.


Exactly why Flip didn't do anything to Ben when Ben refused to enter the game. The Pistons' success is heavily reliant on Ben Wallace's performance on the court.

[bdubya]

The argument was that if Ben Wallace refused to go in the game with Pop as head coach, Pop wouldn't be able to do anything, just like Flip couldn't do anything.

I disagree; I don't for a minute think Flip was powerless to do anything about it; I think he CHOSE to let it slide (I doubt Pop would have). Big difference. I don't doubt that if Flip wanted to bench Ben for a game, or fine him, that Joe D would have backed him up, and I SURE AS HELL don't think Ben would have fought against whatever Flip decided.

[anthologyct]

Maybe I don't know the whole story, but Pop would never coddle a player that even tried to refuse to enter a game. Period. He might get fired, but he's not going to be too intimidated by the prospect of losing his job to tell Ben Wallace to get into the game. Ben Wallace may be a captain, but he's a role player, and carries a FRACTION of the clout Tim Duncan does, so comparing the two in a similar situation is stupid. Duncan would never refuse to enter a game, which is another reason why Wallace is nowhere near his peer.

That's downright disrespectful, don't you think?

Sure, Duncan is a better player than Ben Wallace. But Ben Wallace is no less important to the Pistons than Duncan is to the Spurs.

In fact, I would go as far as to say, (at least on the surface), it appears that Duncan could be replaced by another top notch player, ala Kevin Garnett, and the Spurs would still roll along fine due to the strong influence of Pop. I don't see Duncan as a strong charismatic leader. It doesn't mean he's a bad person, or bad player, or anything like that. Pop is the Leader of the Spurs, and the only irreplaceable piece is Pop under the current formula for success.

Detroit doesn't have a coach that needs to do that ........... Ben Wallace polices the locker room, and holds everyone accountable.

The point that I was tryin' to make is that in San Antonio some things work ......... In Detroit, it's handled another way. If Pop were the coach of the Pistons, he wouldn't bench Ben Wallace, because he knows that he wouldn't need to. He might bench Rasheed Wallace, or Rip Hamilton, because they don't have the credibility that Ben does.

Pop is in my opinion a better coach than Flip. But to suggest that Pop is a better coach solely because he screams at players and is a hard-ass, is speculative to say that least.

[SequSpur]

Swith this topic to the recycle bin.