--- Digital Camcorder ---

[Mr Dio]

I'm buying a digital camcorder for Cabo part II & to finally enter the human race. Have never owned one. I have set a budget of no more than $750 w/tax.


What are the best types/brands/models in your opinions & experiences?

What should I look out for?

What should I not go without?

What is a 12x Optical Zoom comparable to in mm on a 35mm camera lens? For example, is a 10x Op Zoom like having a 35mm-75mm zoom or better?

[scott]

I would recommend Sony's HD camcorder... but for $750 you'll have to find one that fell off the back of a truck...

[Mr Dio]

Is that the new one w/a 30GB HD?

[scott]

It's this bad boy:

http://www.jr.com/JRProductPage.process?Product=4049088

[Mr Dio]

How easy is it to transfer onto a DVD & do you need to format/reformat for it to be played on a DVD player (home or computer)?

[scott]

I actually have no clue... I just want one... sorry I'm not any real help.

[slayermin]

That is a sweet camcorder. I am sure it wouldn't be very difficult at all to transfer on to DVD. Sony usually designs the most user friendly products on the market.

[Slomo]

How easy is it to transfer onto a DVD & do you need to format/reformat for it to be played on a DVD player (home or computer)?HDV (the format of that camcorder) is the newest consumer format and it record quasi HD on a regular DV tape at 25Mbps. Although the image is great the format itself is not compatible with any of the other non-HDV devices which means that you'll have to watch the video played back on your TV from the camcorder itself.

If you want to burn the recording on a DVD you can do it either via your computer or via a DVD recorder with an i-Link (IEEE1394 / FireWire) input. The process involves re-encoding the video to MPEG-2 (the DVD compression format) and thus requires your PC to be equipped with the proper software (google for it), the HDV and MPEG-2 video codecs and an OHCI IEEE1394/firewire/iLink Input/Output card (probabyl costs less than 50$). It's a little work but it is not that different from burning a regular DV tape to DVD.

If you have a DVD recorder with i-Link then I believe the camcorder is capable of outputing a downgraded DV version of the video which you should have no problem recording to the DVD.

[leemajors]

i have this one, got it around a year ago for $450 because i had ordered an old model from a place that was out of stock - was given this one at the old model price for compensation:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00008RHA3/sr=8-2/qid=1144768991/ref=sr_1_2/103-6947726-4155048?%5Fencoding=UTF8

i am very happy with it, use it to film my daughter walking and running around. there are several good suites for windows where you can basically import directly to dvd. i bought a firewire cord for it at discount electronics here in austin for $8 - with either ulead dvd software or pinnacle studio pro you can import directly to dvd or import into the software for editing - very very easy. this one also has a 3.5" viewfinder. i stayed away from sony because the touchscreen viewfinder sucks - my fingers are too big to hit the buttons they like to hide up near the top.

[Slomo]

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=367970&is=REG&addedTroughType=categoryNavigation

On a budget this is a great camcorder.
True!

And B&H is a great reseller (I use them quite often).

[Mr Dio]

True!

And B&H is a great reseller (I use them quite often).


That leads to my next question.

Which outlet/store/site might have the best deals & customer service after the sell?

[Mr Dio]

HDV (the format of that camcorder) is the newest consumer format and it record quasi HD on a regular DV tape at 25Mbps. Although the image is great the format itself is not compatible with any of the other non-HDV devices which means that you'll have to watch the video played back on your TV from the camcorder itself.

If you want to burn the recording on a DVD you can do it either via your computer or via a DVD recorder with an i-Link (IEEE1394 / FireWire) input. The process involves re-encoding the video to MPEG-2 (the DVD compression format) and thus requires your PC to be equipped with the proper software (google for it), the HDV and MPEG-2 video codecs and an OHCI IEEE1394/firewire/iLink Input/Output card (probabyl costs less than 50$). It's a little work but it is not that different from burning a regular DV tape to DVD.

If you have a DVD recorder with i-Link then I believe the camcorder is capable of outputing a downgraded DV version of the video which you should have no problem recording to the DVD.

Would it not be worth it to get a 2GB memory card and just burn onto a DVD?

[Slomo]

Would it not be worth it to get a 2GB memory card and just burn onto a DVD?It doesn't really matter where you burn the DVD from. The issue is that the compression format used by the (DV or HDV) camcorder is not the same as the compression video DVDs use.

Camcorders record video at a rate of 25Mb/s, if I remeber correctly full size uncompressed video is 259 Mb/s which is roughly 20 times more, in order to achieve this they use data compression (like Zip for data files). Unfortunately since the compression ratio is greater than 1 to 2 the compressions introduce errors in the pictures which reflects on its quality. Different methods produce different results depending on what the final purpose of the video is - and device that can play back (or extract) video from one format can not do it for a different one.

So if you want to create a video DVD that plays back in DVD players (not a data DVD like a CD-ROM) you have not only to record the video on the disk in the proper format (transcoding from the camcorders format) but also to record it in a pre-defined manner - this is called authoring. Many software do it in the background for you. But if you want to influence how your DVD will look (menus and stuff) then you have to do it yourself.

One of the solutions that is emerging are camcorders that record video in a format that is compatible with DVDs - in that case you could actually just copy the data to a blank disk and be done with it. I'm not too familiar with consumer equipment so I can't recomend any and I haven't reall heard any praise about those.

[Mr Dio]

So if I give you a list of say (3) models I'm looking at would you be able to tell me if they'd be good for getting video AND bunring it onto a DVD that plays in a standard home unit?

What websites would you suggest that are totally primo to go to & learn this stuff?

[Slomo]

If you give me 3 models I can give you the pros and cons based on my opinion.

http://www.dvforum.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi

http://www.dvformat.com/

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/

http://www.dv.com/

http://www.videohelp.com/forum/userguides/179038.php

The last link talks about creating DVDs from DV. Now this is NOT the only way of doing it - actually there are probably a lot of easier ways. But it gives a good overview of what the process is. Also some of the software used in that example are expensive and not very good but again as an iluustration of what it takes it's OK.

[leemajors]

i used ulead dvd software, it was pretty limited imo. i like pinnacle hollywood studio pro better. then again i am just using the pinnacle software because it's really easy to use, and all i really need to do is add transitions to my videos, then burn them.

[Slomo]

i used ulead dvd software, it was pretty limited imo. i like pinnacle hollywood studio pro better. then again i am just using the pinnacle software because it's really easy to use, and all i really need to do is add transitions to my videos, then burn them.That's exactly what I'm talking about. If you want full control over the editing and DVD authoring process you need to invest in some serious software - the problem is that serious software requires alot of time to master and to use.

Most people need a decent software that allows them to capture the video from the tape to their disk, do some simple editing (trim the bad bits off, maybe some transitions) and burn the whole thing to a DVD.

[leemajors]

agreed, and pinnacle studio pro was the best way for me to go. it is very expensive software, but i have a giganews account ;o
i wish windows had decent video software like imovie for macs. windows movie maker blows.

[Mr Dio]

If you give me 3 models I can give you the pros and cons based on my opinion.

1) Sony Handycam DCR-DVD405 DVD Digital Camcorder
**
2) SONY DCR-DVD203 DVD Handycam® Camcorder
**
3) Sony 1.0MP Handycam DVD Camcorder with 2.7" SwivelScreen Color Touch-Panel LCD Model: DCR-DVD205
**
4) JVC GZ-MG21 Everio Digital Hard Drive Camcorder
**
5) Sony DCR-DVD7 DVD Handycam Camcorder
**
6) Sony DCR-HC96 Mini-DV DV Camcorder


Any other suggestions UNDER $750?

[Mr Dio]

HDV (the format of that camcorder) is the newest consumer format and it record quasi HD on a regular DV tape at 25Mbps. Although the image is great the format itself is not compatible with any of the other non-HDV devices which means that you'll have to watch the video played back on your TV from the camcorder itself.



MiniDV or DVD?
I know neither is as good as HDV or Hard Disk but which is better?

[Mr Dio]

1) Sony Handycam DCR-DVD405 DVD Digital Camcorder
**
2) SONY DCR-DVD203 DVD Handycam® Camcorder
**
3) Sony 1.0MP Handycam DVD Camcorder with 2.7" SwivelScreen Color Touch-Panel LCD Model: DCR-DVD205
**
4) JVC GZ-MG21 Everio Digital Hard Drive Camcorder
**
5) Sony DCR-DVD7 DVD Handycam Camcorder
**
6) Sony DCR-HC96 Mini-DV DV Camcorder


Any other suggestions UNDER $750?


Slomo, what do you think?

I'm really looking @ the JVC(#4).
JVC's HD camcorders are well under Sony's prices. Any idea if quality is why?

[Slomo]

Slomo, what do you think?

I'm really looking @ the JVC(#4).
JVC's HD camcorders are well under Sony's prices. Any idea if quality is why?I missed you initial post sorry!!!!!


I'm going to go check the out right now, give me an hour!

Sorry again!

[Slomo]

1) Sony Handycam DCR-DVD405 DVD Digital Camcorder
**
2) SONY DCR-DVD203 DVD Handycam® Camcorder
**
3) Sony 1.0MP Handycam DVD Camcorder with 2.7" SwivelScreen Color Touch-Panel LCD Model: DCR-DVD205
**
4) JVC GZ-MG21 Everio Digital Hard Drive Camcorder
**
5) Sony DCR-DVD7 DVD Handycam Camcorder
**
6) Sony DCR-HC96 Mini-DV DV Camcorder


Any other suggestions UNDER $750?A few disclaimers: My experience with consumer video is quite limited, but I've been involved with professional video hardware for the past 25+ years, so I'm quite capable of understanding what different specs actually mean. What follows is based on my personal opinion and on what I like or dislike - you'll still have to make up your mind if you agree with me.

First the easy stuff:
DCR-DVD7 - There is not much that I like about this camcorder. I guess it was OK when it cam out but compared to the others... Forget it!

DCR-DVD405
DCR-DVD203
DCR-DVD205
are all quite similar. Basically the higher price also means better picture quality and more functions. What I like is that you can record both video and stills in high quality, and that the 16:9 recording is also good (this was/is a problem for many conventional camcorder). The media is mini DVD-R/RW which you can record approx. 20 min of HQ video (SP and LP settings allow for longer rec. time but if you own a TV set with a pic size of 33" or more, you'll want to use HQ). A neat feature is that you can record video also on the memory stick (how much depends on its size).
It uses MPEG-2 video compression which is the DVD standard compression, so you basically pop the disc in your player and play it back. You can also copy it to 12cm DVD discs, which is a fast process since you're only copying data (the video is already in the right format - no processing), same thing goes for the video on the memory stick. The 10x optical zoom is nice (digital zoom is often useless since it degrades the picture quality).

The bad news: it's MPEG-2 recording, any editing other than trimming the ends off and fadeing in at beginning + fading out at the end will influence the picture quality (and not in a good way). Recording time of 20 mins per disc is not great (you'll need to evaluate how many disc you need to carry around with you (something that becomes easier the more experience you gather). It's SR (no HD - but then there are no HD camcorder available for that sort of $$$).

I personally would go for the DCR-DVD405, because of the picture quality and good all round performance. It's a very nice "family" camcorder for people who just want to shot and watch (are not bothered with post-production). If I couldn't afford this one I would just travel down the price ladder until I found something suitable. Every step down is mainly reflected in the picture sharpness and colour reproduction.

DCR-HC96
Is more or less the mini DV version of the DCR-DVD405. What is better about it is: DV compression which brings you a better picture quality. Editing DV footage is way less damaging than MPEG-2 with a multitude of software available for it. Recording time in SP mode (LP sux) is 60 minutes. I would also check the price of the mini DVD discs as opposed to the mini DV cassettes, just to have a better impression of the operating cost.

The bad: You have to watch your video from the camcorder itself since stationery DV VTR are way too expensive to make sense. You can record the video to DVDs, but'you'll need the proper software and a PC with some additional hardware. It is also more time consuming since you have to re-encode the video to make it compatible with DVD. It's not that difficult, but it is an additional process/chore.


GZ-MG21
This is just a low spec camcorder that's why it's so much cheaper, there are loads of Panasonic and Sony camcorders between this one and the most expensive one on your list, so it doesn't really make sense. The most obvious difference is a big difference in the picture quality of the video and the stills.

JVC is generally cheaper because I think they are targeted at a different market segments than Sony and Panasonic (which becomes more logical if you know that JVC and Panasonic are both brand names of one big corporation - Matsushita). So I suspect that less money goes into product developement at JVC than it does at its sibbling Panasonic. I know for a fact that some Pro JVC camcorders use older Sony CCD chips to save manufacturing and developement cost. Sony does its own R&D on CCD and video processors, which is its strongest selling point - but also kills their profit margin, so we'll see how much longer they can keep up the same quality.


If you have more specific questions, I promise I'll check this thread more often :)

[Vashner]

I wish... one with underwater housing. :)

[Slomo]

Let me refer you to a company I've done business with in the past...

http://www.uwimaging.com/products/products.htm

:)

[Mr Dio]

Thanks Slomo.
I really appreciate the input.
Hope you know that my decision will probably be 99% based on your info. :lol


Let me look @ a couple of others tonight & I'll post again.

[Mr Dio]

OK, so I got the JVC Everio GZ-MG77

I can get the still pics to transfer from camcorder to PC but not the video.
Anyone have any serious tips or advice?
Paging Mr Slomo, paging Mr Slomo...

[leemajors]

if you have the right software, you should be able to import it over firewire straight onto your hard drive. i use pinnacle studio 10, it works pretty well for what i use it for - taping my daughter's easter egg hunt and stuff, and making a dvd out of the stuff i record. but slomo knows way more about other ways to do that than me.

[SA Gunslinger]

If you have a Mac, you need to connect your camera via firewire. If you have a PC, I believe it's called an i-link connection.

You do need software to capture the video to your computer.

If you just want to burn your footage on to a DVD with basic editing, you should be able to accomplish that task using a dvr.

There is a wealth of information on the site below.

2-Pop (http://www.2-pop.com/)

[leemajors]

IEEE 1394 port adapter. i think they still mark the cable as a firewire cable. incredibly fast data transfer.

[Slomo]

I'm not familiar with this model, but a quick google says it has only analogue AV outputs and a USB connector.

I'll look into it with more details but at this point I would guess that:
You recorded your still pictures on the SD card, while you recorded your video on the internal Hard disk of the camcorder. So to get the video to your computer there should bbe one of two logical solutions:
1. You got a special software with the camcorder that allows you to do that

2. When you connect your camcorder via USB to the computer it appears as an external hard disk. You should be able to browse that disk and to find video files on it that you then simply copy to your computer's hard drive.


Tell me what computer are you using? (operating system?).

[leemajors]

ouch, usb for hard drive to hard drive transfer? usb 2.0 is ok, but firewire is still faster.

[Slomo]

Well if it's USB 2.0, it's actually faster than regular IEEE1394 (FireWire).

If it's not then yes - Ouch!

[leemajors]

Well if it's USB 2.0, it's actually faster than regular IEEE1394 (FireWire).

If it's not then yes - Ouch!

firewire is still a bit faster than USB 2.0. USB 2.0 is faster theoretically, but still doesn't match up in performance tests.

http://www.usb-ware.com/firewire-vs-usb.htm

[Slomo]

OK I've looked at it on jvc.com, and it seems it has a lot of built in "inteligence" (like being able to creates DVDs directly without a PC - you do need an external USB DVD unit though). Also it says that its delivered with a lot of software and utilities, so my advice would be to try the external HDD trick from my previous post (itm.2) for raw data transfer, and then to sit down and learn how to use the included software, since because of the built in software ("inteligence") there are probably some non standard features that you probably want to make use of.

Keep us posted of your progress (or better yet - post your masterpieces online for everybody to see :) )

PS: In order for the computer to recognize it as an external HDD you may have to install some special drivers first (they should be included in the package though).

[Mr Dio]

Thanks you all!
I will try this weekend & update.
I want to upload some shots from my Cabo trip.