More than 180 million former

[whottt]

and practicing terrorists and leaders of terrorist countries that endorse terrorism, endorse John Kerry.

An unprecedented show of support for an American presidential candidate.

Allahwipeasswithhandi, former chief beheader for Ansar al-Islam had this to say about John Kerry: If he wins, we win. America needs to do the right thing.

[Marcus Bryant]

Nice. :lol

[Nbadan]

"Recruitment for suicide bombings and the terror war has never been better under Bush" said Al-Zawari before planting another road-side bomb which any runny-nose private can disarm but the whole U.S. military can't seem to do. "Before Bush it was hard to find support for islamic causes in a secular state, but since the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq, recruitment numbers are at record levels. So much so that my small group of insurgents is now being regarded as insignificant by much larger and more radical groups. This must stop."

[Yonivore]

Poll after Poll, with the same results...

100% of America's enemies would vote for John Forbes Kerry.

[whottt]

Nice. :lol


Thanks MB, it's good to see you and I have finally found something we can agree on after the past few years...John Kerry - The Great Uniter.

[Nbadan]

Poll after poll confirms that attacking a secular country and turning it into a Islamitic bastion is bad policy.

[Yonivore]

Poll after poll confirms that attacking a secular country and turning it into a Islamitic bastion is bad policy.
No, I believe the polls still show most Americans believed Saddam Hussein needed his ass whooped.

[SpursWoman]

No, I believe the polls still show most Americans believed Saddam Hussein needed his ass whooped.


:lol :lol :lol

[whottt]

"Recruitment for suicide bombings and the terror war has never been better under Bush" said Al-Zawari before planting another road-side bomb which any runny-nose private can disarm but the whole U.S. military can't seem to do. "Before Bush it was hard to find support for islamic causes in a secular state, but since the illegal invasion and occupation of Iraq, recruitment numbers are at record levels. So much so that my small group of insurgents is now being regarded as insignificant by much larger and more radical groups. This must stop."

To which America, replied: That's funny, they didn't seem to have any problems finding people willing to commit suicide, murder athletes, behead their enemies, and target civillians, prior to the War on Terror either...Must have been Clinton's habit of shooting random cruise missles into countries every time he got caught getting blown in the Oval office.


America went on to say: Nothing a few well placed nukes and a few hundred million civillian casualties, followed by some excessive, brutal and atrocious war crimes, won't fix, if push comes to shove. We'll feel guilty for a while, but we'll get over it eventually. Like, the next time we see a replay of September 11th.

[Nbadan]

So does George Bush, and I'm sure 75% of the families of GI's who have perised in Iraq would be more than happy to accommodate.

[Nbadan]

To which America, replied: That's funny, they didn't seem to have any problems finding people willing to commit suicide, murder athletes, behead their enemies, and target civillians, prior to the War on Terror either...Must have been Clinton's habit of shooting random cruise missles into countries every time he got caught getting blown in the Oval office.

Oh yeah, beheading and suicide bombings were out of control in the U.S. before W invaded Iraq, but now, now they occur in a much more reasonable number.

[Yonivore]

So does George Bush, and I'm sure 75% of the families of GI's who have perised in Iraq would be more than happy to accommodate.
I think you'd be surprised at how many families of KIA's actually support the war effort, are proud of their lost loved one, and believe in the cause for which they died.

I don't know the percentage but, I'd wager it's closer to be the exact opposite of the number you pulled out of your ass.

[Nbadan]

America went on to say: Nothing a few well placed nukes and a few hundred million civillian casualties, followed by some excessive, brutal and atrocious war crimes, won't fix, if push comes to shove. We'll feel guilty for a while, but we'll get over it eventually. Like, the next time we see a replay of September 11th.


Why am I not surprised? Another war-mongerer with no sense of reality.

[Yonivore]

Oh yeah, beheading and suicide bombings were out of control in the U.S. before W invaded Iraq, but now, now they occur in a much more reasonable number.
Actually, I know of no terrorist perpetrated beheadings in the U.S., either before or after the beginning of the war on terror. I am, however, aware of a certain 3,000 fatality suicide bombing that occurred, prior to the war, on September 11, 2001.

Obversely, I'm not aware of any suicide bombings in the U.S. after we started pounding the shit out of Islamo-extremists in their own backyard.

[Nbadan]

I think you'd be surprised at how many families of KIA's actually support the war effort, are proud of their lost loved one, and believe in the cause for which they died.

Just wait till the U.S. has to pull out of Iraq and the nation turns into one big Al-Queda recruitment ground, and then we'll ask the families about the sacrafice of their loved ones.

[Nbadan]

Actually, I know of no terrorist perpetrated beheadings in the U.S., either before or after the beginning of the war on terror. I am, however, aware of a certain 3,000 fatality suicide bombing that occurred, prior to the war, on September 11, 2001.

Yeah, and none of the 911 perpatrators were from Iraq. Using your logic, maybe France should be next on W's wish list instead of Iran and North Korea?

[whottt]

Dan, if you think it's easy for them to recruit now, just imagine how easy it'll be for them if they actually win, which Kerry will allow them to do...he sure as hell helped the Viet Namese, they were counting on Americans like him to make us lose our will...just like the terrorists are now. Just ask any Viet Namese immigrant(they are easy to tell...they are the ones who had their land taken from them and most of their family murdered after we pulled out of Viet Nam and it became an unlivable shithole).

I will say that their constant airing of the beheadings of bound men makes it much easier to recruit me to the idea of nuking their entire culture off the face of the planet.

They can recruit all they want...in the end they will lose because they are backwards ass movement based on opression, ignorance and lies...and we can be some homicidal mofo's ourselves when so inclined...they blew up the wrong motherfucking country's buildings. I predict people will really be feeling sorry for these beheading scum by the time we are done with them.

[Nbadan]

Dan, if you think it's easy for them to recruit now, just imagine how easy it'll be for them if they actually win, which Kerry will allow them to do...he sure as hell helped the Viet Namese, they were counting on Americans like him to make us lose our will...just like the terrorists are now.

What the hell are you smoking? Abu Gharib was the poster-child for Al-Queda recruiting. Al-Queda and Osama Bin Laden are still planning and plotting attacks against the West and the U.S. has zero troops to do anything about it thanks to the Iraq cluster-fuck.

[whottt]

Just wait till the U.S. has to pull out of Iraq and the nation turns into one big Al-Queda recruitment ground, and then we'll ask the families about the sacrafice of their loved ones.


If you get that part of it...why would you elect Kerry? That's exactly what will happen to Iraq if he is elected. He's the one that going to pull out of Iraq and fuck all the Iraqis there who do support us...which is most of them.

I know it's most of them support us because we are fighting terrorist who hide amongst women and children...not a force of 20 million people, who if so inclined, could obliterate the small force we have there and could drive us out on the ground in a matter of moments.

[Nbadan]

If you get that part of it...why would you elect Kerry? That's exactly what will happen to Iraq if he is elected. He's the one that going to pull out of Iraq and fuck all the Iraqis there who do support us...which is most of them.

I know it's most of them support us because we are fighting terrorist who hide amongst women and children...not a force of 20 million people, who if so inclined, could obliterate the small force we have there and could drive us out on the ground in a matter of moments.

The U.S. has lost the moral-authority to rebuild Iraq. The sooner you realize this the better for all of us. It is your kind of thinking why the U.S. had to lose 50,000 troops in Vietman before the U.S. pulled out, and what was gonna happened there inevitably happened anyway.

[whottt]

The U.S. has lost the moral-authority to rebuild Iraq. The sooner you realize this the better for all of us. It is your kind of thinking why the U.S. had to lose 50,000 troops in Vietman before the U.S. pulled out, and what was gonna happened there inevitably happened anyway.

No, it was antiwar sentiment back home that caused us to lose that war. It was also antiwar sentiment that lead to slow methodical approach in which their civillians were valued more than the lives of men that were defending this country, costing us tons of lives. You idea that it was what was going to happen there anyway is fatalistic.

It didin't happen anywhere else we stayed and killed all the bad guys.

You assume everyone there is against us...and that just simply isn't true.

Much like our anti-war protesters here give the appearance of the entire country being violently opposed to the war, and again, that just isn't true...the protesting voice is often the smallest in number, that is why it screams the loudest.


And everytime you or the press make this huge ordeal about civillians dying, you cost American troops their lives. But that's ok, without that voice in our country we would be truly fascist and brutal. I respect that voice, but it has no business leading the country at this time. Right now, we need an asshole running the country.



If I have to watch our guys dying in the process of fighting for this country and liberating their countr,y so they can turn on us in 50 years like Europe has.... you can damn sure bet I am willing to watch some of their civillians die in the process...and you cannot tell me that any of our real wars have been unjust and that the country hasn't been better, both in terms of humanitarian rights and quality of life, for us winning.


And you are right I am a war monger....being unjustly declared war upon has that effect on me. You could say I've been radicalized.

[whottt]

Keep telling yourself that Abu Gareib and Bush were the cause of Radical Islam....

If anything caused it it was the UN, Britain and France forming Israel, while having probmised all that land to the Arabs. This problem existed prior to 2001...and the terrorists have no right to dicate which countries we support..if they are going to declare war on us...the countries that protect them will either cooperate with us...or they are going to feel the efffects of this war as well.

[Marcus Bryant]

Dan, if you think it's easy for them to recruit now, just imagine how easy it'll be for them if they actually win,

Exactly. Funny how the Islamic terrorists had no recruiting problems throughout the 1990s. Remember Somalia? The US turned tail and ran once the battle began. Bin Laden has been reported again and again as being emboldened by that response.

Either we get serious about dealing with the Islamic fascists or else we are sucking terrorist cock in the back of our Land Rovers, no matter how many "No War for Oil" or "No One Died When Clinton Lied" bumper stickers we have plastered on the back.

Figure it out.

[Nbadan]

No, it was antiwar sentiment back home that caused us to lose that war. It was also antiwar sentiment that lead to slow methodical approach in which their civillians were valued more than the lives of men that were defending this country, costing us tons of lives. You idea that it was what was going to happen there anyway is fatalistic.

:rolleyes

Yeah, Killing millions of North Vietnamese and South Vietnamese in the process of liberating them had nothing to do with us losing that war. It didn't matter how many troops we sent to die in Vietnam because China was sending 10x the number we were sending. Up to the very end the U.S. kept up the facade that there was a chance to negotiate a peace to the war. So we sent in more and more of our brave soldiers to die needlessly.

[Nbadan]

And everytime you or the press make this huge ordeal about civillians dying, you cost American troops their lives.

Everytime we kill civilians the snowball effect takes hold in Iraq and we inflame even more moderate Muslims. This is what contributes to more road-side bombs and suicide bombings, and more coalition troops dieing.

[Nbadan]

If I have to watch our guys dying in the process of fighting for this country and liberating their countr,y so they can turn on us in 50 years like Europe has.... you can damn sure bet I am willing to watch some of their civillians die in the process...

By supporting this immoral war (not my words the Pope's words), not only are you supporting the cold-blooded murder of innocent civilians. You support torture, humiliation, and degradation of prisoners. Many of whom have subsequently been released without ever being charged.

[Nbadan]

If anything caused it it was the UN, Britain and France forming Israel, while having probmised all that land to the Arabs. This problem existed prior to 2001...and the terrorists have no right to dicate which countries we support..if they are going to declare war on us...the countries that protect them will either cooperate with us...or they are going to feel the efffects of this war as well.

The Palestinian problem has nothing to do with our illegal war in Iraq. If anything, the U.S. has set up its own little Gaza strip and West Bank in Iraq,

[Nbadan]

Exactly. Funny how the Islamic terrorists had no recruiting problems throughout the 1990s. Remember Somalia? The US turned tail and ran once the battle began. Bin Laden has been reported again and again as being emboldened by that response.

It couldn't have anything to do with the West providing support for repressive regimes in those respective countries, right? What did you want us to do in Somolia, nuke it?

[Marcus Bryant]

You mean like when the US led a coalition to extricate Hussein from Kuwait and reduce his threat to the Saudis? When it provided aid to bin Laden and mujhadeen to fight the Soviets in the 80s?

The hatred for the West comes from what those regimes spew more than anything else.

Again, the United States did not respond to multiple terrorist attacks in the 1990s, just as it hadn't in the decades prior. Successful attacks bred more recruits and that rather spectacular attack 3 years ago certainly didn't hurt them.

It's not a matter of being too strong, it's a matter of being perceived as weak. That's the message the withdrawal from Somalia sent.

[Nbadan]

You mean like when the US led a coalition to extricate Hussein from Kuwait and reduce his threat to the Saudis? When it provided aid to bin Laden and mujhadeen to fight the Soviets in the 80s?

:rolleyes

The U.S. wasn't supporting the Saudi people, they were supporting the Saudi royalty and the oil. America was serving its own interests in the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

[Nbadan]

The hatred for the West comes from what those regimes spew more than anything else.

So why do we keep handing them petro dollars that they in turn hand to terrorists supporters? Its a never-ending cycle of terrorism support we got going here. Get rid of these repressive regimes.

[Marcus Bryant]

The U.S. wasn't supporting the Saudi people, they were supporting the Saudi royalty and the oil. America was serving its own interests in the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

The complaint from 'the people' about the Saudi Royals is that they aren't repressive enough.

As for the US did I say that we were not pursuing our own interests? How does that change the fact that we were supporting the efforts to resist a repressive regime's invasion of Afghanistan?



So why do we keep handing them petro dollars that they in turn hand to terrorists supporters?

Gee, why do we have a demand for oil? Aw shucks it would be so easy to change that.




Its a never-ending cycle of terrorism support we got going here.

Terrorism was not created by those governments. It is sponsored by some, certainly. So what do we do? Do we sit back and wait to be attacked again and again? Perhaps with something a little greater than 4 hijacked planes? Come on.

You know what feeds that cycle of terrorism? Islamic fundamentalism. To the extent that there is an impact on regimes over there, it is a push for Islamic fascism. Now we can turn a blind eye to it and hope it goes away, or perhaps we can actually deal with it.



Get rid of these repressive regimes.

Is that not what the US has done in Iraq and Afghanistan? Oh wait, a Republican is in the White House, so it's bad.

[Yonivore]

"Just wait till the U.S. has to pull out of Iraq and the nation turns into one big Al-Queda recruitment ground, and then we'll ask the families about the sacrafice of their loved ones."

Wow, nice rosy outlook there, Nbadanallah. I think I'll advise you to just wait until Iraq has free and fair elections, no longer under the thumb of a ruthless dictator and his torture chambers.

What I don't understand is that nearly everyone agrees the war should be fought to a conclusion...that we can't afford to lose...that we shouldn't pull out, yet, there are people like you that keep predicting the worst and that never give the hopeful outcome the light of day.

Over 75,000 Americans died in the final days of World War II --- just before VE Day, including such killing fields as the Battle of the Bulge. If you'd been around then, you'd of been whining about how they were dying for nothing.

Then, for over a year after VE Day, there were Americans dying at the hands of "insurgent" Germans in the streets of Dresden, Berlin, etc...in greater numbers than are now being experienced in Iraq. Again, if you'd been around then, you'd of been whining about how we were losing the peace in the Quagmire of Europe.


"Yeah, and none of the 911 perpatrators were from Iraq. Using your logic, maybe France should be next on W's wish list instead of Iran and North Korea?"
None of them were from Afghanistan, either. And, I'm not opposed to leveling France. They've been useless surrender monkeys for as long as anyone can remember anyway.


"What the hell are you smoking? Abu Gharib was the poster-child for Al-Queda recruiting. Al-Queda and Osama Bin Laden are still planning and plotting attacks against the West and the U.S. has zero troops to do anything about it thanks to the Iraq cluster-fuck."

I believe September 11 was a much better recruitment tool for al Qaeda's enemies than Abu Ghraib was for it's cause. I still recall the interview with the Iraqi citizen, when the Abu Ghraib story was at its peak, who glibly recalled the atrocities of Saddam Hussein and shrugged off the "humiliation" of Abu Ghraib as nonsense.

And, if it recruits terrorists, so be it; we'll just kill them too.


"The U.S. has lost the moral-authority to rebuild Iraq. The sooner you realize this the better for all of us. It is your kind of thinking why the U.S. had to lose 50,000 troops in Vietman before the U.S. pulled out, and what was gonna happened there inevitably happened anyway."
Just out of curiosity -- and for entertainment purposes only -- how would now proceed on the Iraq question if you were the President, Nbadanallah?


"Everytime we kill civilians the snowball effect takes hold in Iraq and we inflame even more moderate Muslims. This is what contributes to more road-side bombs and suicide bombings, and more coalition troops dieing."
Where are the Japanese and German terrorists created during WWII? We killed exponentially more civilians in those two theaters than in Iraq.


"By supporting this immoral war (not my words the Pope's words), not only are you supporting the cold-blooded murder of innocent civilians. You support torture, humiliation, and degradation of prisoners. Many of whom have subsequently been released without ever being charged."
Sorry, the Pope lost his moral authority at the end of a few hundred priest's penises. And, we are prosecuting the abuses of Abu Ghraib. Four soldiers are now facing murder charges for killing an Iraqi officer. I doubt due process was ever a concern of the prior regime.


"The Palestinian problem has nothing to do with our illegal war in Iraq. If anything, the U.S. has set up its own little Gaza strip and West Bank in Iraq,"
Other than in the context of the former Ba'athist regime providing financial support to "Palestinian" terrorists, I agree to a great extent. However, I'd like to focus on the word "illegal."

Under what body of law are our actions illegal?

And you resigning yourself to a grim outcome is really short-sighted considering this conflict is less than 10 years old and the "Palestinian"-Israeli conflict is nearly a century in the making. We ousted the dictatorial Ba'athist regime in 21 days..."Palestinians" have had no such success with the Israeli government. We've been battling "insurgents" in Iraq just over a year...and you're ready to throw in the towel.

If that reflects the Kerry mentality, who needs him as President? Not me.

Nbadanallah, you're a fucking idiot.

[exstatic]

What I don't understand is that nearly everyone agrees the war should be fought to a conclusion...that we can't afford to lose...that we shouldn't pull out, yet, there are people like you that keep predicting the worst and that never give the hopeful outcome the light of day.


Just curious, Yoni. At what point is the war fought "to a conclusion"?

[Yonivore]

Just curious, Yoni. At what point is the war fought "to a conclusion"?
In Iraq?

When the Iraqi government is able to provide for its own security.

[Yonivore]

Just curious, Yoni. At what point is the war fought "to a conclusion"?
I'll ask you the same question I asked Nbadanallah. If you were President, how would resolve the Iraq issue?

[Marcus Bryant]

Here's a better question: if you were president, how would you resolve the 'crazy fucker Islamist terrorists who want to kill us' issue?

[SpursWoman]

And, I'm not opposed to leveling France.



Sorry, ungrateful bastards.... :flipoff

[whottt]

:rolleyes

The U.S. wasn't supporting the Saudi people, they were supporting the Saudi royalty and the oil. America was serving its own interests in the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan.

How so? What interests were we serving other than to stop the spread of communism, a flawed, corrupt form of government?

Ditto Viet Nam, ditto Korea.

You know you really don't give a shit about those people over there...you could care less what shitty life they are born into over there...it's their fault for being born there right Dan? Fuck em.

Viet Nam was doomed to fail...so we should just say fuckem...even if it eventually migth have affected us...

Hey we finally did that in Afghanistan, we finally stopped meddling in other countries affairs and forcing our fascist form of freedom on countries...it worked so well we started using that practice in South America as well...why did we do this? Because it got the fucking antiwar protesters to shut the fuck up...well not really...then they started bitching about how we propped up dictators...

So basically we fuckheads no matter what we do, especially republicans...inspite the fact that a democrat was in office in every major war of the 20th century...


We should just sit back, and let every group of assholes that want to impose their fucked up will upon us do so...right Dan?

Because then we'll really have a justified reason to bitch.

[exstatic]

Hold the elections and then declare victory and GTFO. There are too many factions, and eventually, it will crumble into civil war anyway. Why spend more American lives propping up a regime that will fall? Let them get back to killing each other instead of Americans.

Alternatively, split Iraq into three extremely semi-autonomous regions: Sunni, Shi'ite, and Kurd. They'll still fight each other, but maybe not on a daily basis.

We're fighting not only the insurgents, but almost 1500 years of Middle Eastern culture and history, none of which deals with freedom or democracy. It's not going to happen in a day, a year, or a decade, folks. How much do you want to pay, in terms of lives and capital?

[Yonivore]

Hold the elections and then declare victory and GTFO. There are too many factions, and eventually, it will crumble into civil war anyway. Why spend more American lives propping up a regime that will fall? Let them get back to killing each other instead of Americans.

Alternatively, split Iraq into three extremely semi-autonomous regions: Sunni, Shi'ite, and Kurd. They'll still fight each other, but maybe not on a daily basis.

We're fighting not only the insurgents, but almost 1500 years of Middle Eastern culture and history, none of which deals with freedom or democracy. It's not going to happen in a day, a year, or a decade, folks. How much do you want to pay, in terms of lives and capital?
You're cut from the same cloth as those who said Japan would never be democratized or, that Germany would never be peaceful.

So, you favor just "calling" the peace and leaving.

Nice tribute to the already fallen. :rolleyes

[Marcus Bryant]

We're fighting not only the insurgents, but almost 1500 years of Middle Eastern culture and history, none of which deals with freedom or democracy. It's not going to happen in a day, a year, or a decade, folks. How much do you want to pay, in terms of lives and capital?

So we're back to ignoring the threat and wishing it away.

[whottt]

Hold the elections and then declare victory and GTFO. There are too many factions, and eventually, it will crumble into civil war anyway. Why spend more American lives propping up a regime that will fall? Let them get back to killing each other instead of Americans.

Alternatively, split Iraq into three extremely semi-autonomous regions: Sunni, Shi'ite, and Kurd. They'll still fight each other, but maybe not on a daily basis.

We're fighting not only the insurgents, but almost 1500 years of Middle Eastern culture and history, none of which deals with freedom or democracy. It's not going to happen in a day, a year, or a decade, folks. How much do you want to pay, in terms of lives and capital?


Congrats, that's the exact same philosophy that the last architects of the middle east used...

They are too fucking savage to ever be civilized...that is what Europe said...That is what Great Britan and France said...and they fully expected the equally undesirable Jews of Israel to be exterminated.

So who is truly more cynical here...the one who thinks these people can't join the modern era and we shouldn't even try(anti war POV)...or the one who thinks they can(Greedy asshole George Bush)..

The truth is...no one has ever tried because no one has ever stood up to their brutal methods and culture and challenged it.

One beheading was enough for Great Britain to say...let's get the fuck out of here...I don't give a fuck what we promised the jews..did you see what those Arabs just did to that guy?

80 years later a terrorist act was enough for Spain to say...let's the get the fuck out of here and capitulate.

The simple fact is...that in your view...you think you are better than the people born in the middle east, I agree we are, our society is, our way of life is......but the difference is...you don't think they're capable of joining modern civilization, just like Europe has always thought...and why should we die trying to make them...

I know we're better but I am willing to give them a fighting chance, even if some of them have to die to do it, before my second choice of nuking them off the planet.


911 is why. Because when we leave this country to a bunch of opressive fucks, they have a nasty habit of blaming the suffering they inflict on their people, on us...which results in individuals that hate our freedom and civilization so much..that they are willing to commit suicide if it hurts us.


What you advocate is apathy...What's the expression? Hate isn't opposite of love..it's apathy...

Well we can try to forget about them, but 911 shows they have ways of getting our attention and letting us know they are still there suffering in the living hell that is that portion of the world.

We can no longer forget about them...either they get modernized or they become extinct.

No one has ever had the guts or fortitude to show them how badly their culture is failing...once it fails them, they'll either change it, or they will pass into history to more advanced cultures and society.

An unspoken aspect of this war is that the most terroristic people in that part of the world are now fighting and dying against our millitary. That's natural selection at work right there...let the violent ones come to fight the USA...they won't live to pass on their genes.

[exstatic]

How much do you want to pay, in terms of lives and capital?

No one addressed this one. How much?

And whottt...folks have been trying for the best part of this century to westernize the ME. It hasn't happened, and is showing no signs OF happening. Do we stay for 100 years in Iraq?

Yes, I think the ME is fucked up, and undemocratizable in our lifetime. The mistake that most make is thinking of them as "mostly like us". They're not. The culture is violently Patriarchal and misogynistic. There is no place for differing opinions. They don't care if they die for their beliefs, in fact preferring to do so. To combat that kind of fanaticism, you have to become as oppressive as Saddam. If you don't, you're seen as weak and ineffective, leading to increased fanaticism and aQ recruiting. If you do, you're the Christian Crusader oppressor and it leads to increased fanaticism and aQ recruiting. It's a no win scenario.

[Marcus Bryant]

Ergo, we should adopt the Claytie Williams approach?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Dan-

Go read Osama's writings. He's got a lengthy wax exstatic on how Clitton turning tale and running Somalia gave his cause streed cred, and how he felt the US would never fight them toe to toe due for fear of bloodshed. It's the whole "boots on the ground" thing that Bush talked about back in the day.


that's the exact same philosophy that the last architects of the middle east used...

Actually the last architects, England and France, carved it up hoping to set up some rather weak nations that they could take advantage of for *gasp* favorable oil interests.

I tend to come down on ex's side of things, the best way to deal with Iraq would be to split it up according to religious affiliation. Tribalism is rampant in that part of the world, why not just admit it and get it over with...

People talk about how we can't break up Iraq like it's been around for two thousand years or something stupid like that. Fact is present day Iraq's borders were drawn in the aftermath of WWI by Britain and France, vis a vis the League of Nations.

I don't even know if breaking up Iraq will work, as we'd probably see Turkey make a grab for the Kurdish lands in the north, Syria for the Sunni lands in the west, and Iran for the Shi'ite lands in the east.

Savagery and tribalism has been the hallmark of the Middle East, don't see it changing anytime soon.

[exstatic]

Ergo, we should adopt the Claytie Williams approach?

Nope. The war on terrorism has no chance to be won over there. It has to be won over here. Those 19 hijackers didn't board planes in the ME, they boarded in Portland Maine.

"Boots on the ground" obviously isn't working. I think you identify hostile and potentially hostile regimes, and allow them their wish to live in the 6th century. Bomb the crap out of anything that looks like WMD infrastructure, and keep doing it. Keep vigilant at home.

[Marcus Bryant]

But what if you aren't certain it is "WMD infrastructure"?

[exstatic]

Bomb it anyway. No more invasions or nation-building, though. Let them have their 6th century Caliphate, but they can't join the big kids club for now.

[Marcus Bryant]

What's gotten into you? You seem to be feeling rather preemptive this afternoon.

[exstatic]

We won the cold war playing poker, not with "boots on the ground". The two places where we did place "boots on the ground" were Korea and Vietnam. Korea was a conventional war, and we got a tie. Vietnam was a guerilla war, and we couldn't nail the fuckers in 15 years. It was a loss, or at best a withdrawal to save face, followed by an over throw of the government. Nation-building doesn't work with cultures extremely different from our own.

[Marcus Bryant]

So the Israeli position. Not that I disagree with the emotion, but it's to the right of anything currently acceptable in American politics.

[Jimcs50]

Are you guys going to watch debate tonight?

The dumbass American public will once again be impressed by style over substance and the slick trial lawyer will make Dick look like a dick. As long as the candidate looks composed like he is on Prozac, he wins the debate, according to the polls.

[Marcus Bryant]

I suspect it will be 'Uncle Dick' or 'Grandpa Cheney' in effect tonight. He'll get in his digs, but he'll be affable enough. Mayberry will probably reference Halliburton about every 15 seconds.

[exstatic]

....but too "soft" or "left" for Bushco, MB. They still think we can pacify the insurgancy. I think to even get a face saving withdrawal at this point will have a huge cost in US lives. I also don't see it happening any time soon.

I would definitely adopt the Israeli approach, vis a vis Iran. All we need is another NK, an immature, radical nation with nukes.

[Marcus Bryant]

In the case of Hussein, if you don't know precisely what he has but given his demonstrated use of such weapons in the past, the assessment of his capability and desires from the world's leading intelligence agencies, and his demonstrated intransigence when it comes to cooperation with the weapons inspections, wouldn't he himself be a target?

What I'm thinking is that in the case of Hussein, he indeed was what needed to be removed. Taking him out and letting the country go to hell is something to the right of anything the current administration has advocated.

[Jimcs50]

I suspect it will be 'Uncle Dick' or 'Grandpa Cheney' in effect tonight. He'll get in his digs, but he'll be affable enough. Mayberry will probably reference Halliburton about every 15 seconds.


One thing about Dick, he has a wry sense of humor and he can get in some zingers that will bring a chuckle to the viewers. Also that every 15 secs reference, you mean like Kerry mentioning his Viet Nam experience every 15 secs in the first debate??? :rollin

[Jimcs50]

Has anyone ever thought that maybe Husssein did not have weapons of mass destruction anymore because he had already sold them to terrorists? Perhaps?

[exstatic]

No Jim, I hadn't. It makes no sense. He was a megalomaniac, and they don't cede or share power. Weapons are power.

[Jimcs50]

Well, where did they go? He had them, he used them on the Kurds, he refused to comply with the inspectors...why would we think he no longer had them, otherwise? What choice did we have? The weapons are somewhere, they did not just evaporate into thin air.

[Nbadan]

Has anyone ever thought that maybe Husssein did not have weapons of mass destruction anymore because he had already sold them to terrorists? Perhaps?

The righties in the forum have been trying to pass off the Saddam sent his WMD's to Syria for months. However, the weakness in their theories is that Syria already possessed most of the same weapons, including the deadly VX, in their inventories, and the fact that chemical and biological weapons have a very limited shelf life.

[whottt]

Well AHF, you and Ex are wrong...I think Democracy and Westernization can succeed over there for one major reason...

Because they fucking invented it. These words we type, this language we speak, our written code of law, our music, our schools, our libraries...our democracy, our art..All were born right fucking there where our soliders now fight suicide bombers and beheaders. That desert is the biblical garden of eden, that desert was the first irrigated land in the world. They are not so savage they don't grasp these concepts...these concepts came from their minds in the first place. That religion they practice was once the most enlightened religion in the world and the one you embraced if you valued science, art and learning. No wonder they call us arrogant.

Fanatacism does not go hand in hand with being an Arab or a Muslim, anymore than it goes hand in hand with being a Christian, Jew or a decendant of the Viking barbarians...or the decendant of the Aztecs and their love of human sacrifice.

Fanatacism goes hand in hand with ignorance, opression and poverty...attack those problems in the middle east(which we cannot do with despots running those countries) and you solve the fanatic problem...

Fanatacism goes hand in hand with distrust of foreigners who have come there to rape their lands...we wear this tag...but the truth is we are not the ones who have ever done that. We have never tried to conquer the middle east, we have never tried to loot it's riches for our own. We pay for our Oil. We pay more than anyone, we buy more than anyone. We are the source of their wealth, such as it is, now.

And Aggie I know it was France and Great Britain that were the last architects of the middle east...and I also know that they thought the Arabs were too savage to be Westernized... they were wrong...They(Europe) were arrogant aristocrats then and they still are to this day. They were not willing to get their hands dirty with these savages. We have succeeded at this before...they never have...because all the accusations you hear leveled at the US by these Muslim leaders...they were all true when Europe was involved in the middle east.

Europe to this day doesn't have a grasp of just how our Democracy works, they still have an aristocracy masquerading as a Democracy in most of the European countries...our Democracy is the most successful one in history..it's also the most real.

When we talk about freedom and equality, we mean it..we know what it is because we live it. European leaders don't have a clue...that's why they don't have the record of success that we do. That's why we don't need to be listenting to them about what's in our best interest. Europe has a disdain for our form of government, and the fact that the common people truly elect our leaders here is appaling to the leaders of Europe...that's really why they look down on us..They can't tell us how to do this because they have never done it themselves...We have.

The trick is to gain the trust of those you have beaten...We are trustworthy in this situation, there is a sincere desire here to end terrorism... we just have to get them to realize it...but fat hypocritical fucks like Michael Moore don't make it any easier.

Anyway, the Arabs are pussies compared to the Japanese who were the most feudal, determined, and disciplined society the world has ever seen. They were also patriarchial and misogynist...they were also willing to commit suidice to kill their enemies...they were willing to kill their women and children too(and not because they were trying to gain political sympathy) they were also much more advanced.


I've never met an Iranian, a Pakistani, an Arab...I've never met one I thought was too savage to join society. They are people just like us...they've just had wars being fought in their land since time began...and European influence and disregard for who was appointed rulers in their lands has made them more savage and fanatical than at any other time in their history.

Give real Democracy(the fascist American kind that forces freedom on people according to Dan) a chance in the middle east..and it will succeed.

[ididnotnothat]

Give peace a chance. :fro

[exstatic]

I think Democracy and Westernization can succeed over there for one major reason...

Because they fucking invented it.

Actually, the Greeks did.

The Tigris and Euphrates valley has been called the cradle of civilization, and for good reason. A lot of good things were invented there, writing, architecture, etc. Then came Islam. The Middle East went from being intellectually forward (inventing the concept of zero, without which computers would not exist) to behind the times in about five hundred years, and they've never caught up. Coincidence? I think not.

As for the Japanese, pulling them into the present took about 100 years, from Commodore Perry steaming into Edo (Tokyo) harbor in 1854, until post WWII reconstruction, with two Nukes thrown in for good measure. There were also no jetliners to drive into buildings back then, or we may have been talking about September 11, 1901.

[ididnotnothat]

I thought the Aztecs or the Maya civilization were the first to recognize the value of "absolute zero"?

But I don't know.

[exstatic]

I thought the Aztecs or the Maya civilization were the first to recognize the value of "absolute zero"?

But I don't know.

I'd always heard that it was the Arabs, but maybe they did it simultaniously in two hemispheres.

[exstatic]

The "invention" of zero (http://www.mediatinker.com/whirl/zero/zero.html)

[whottt]

Actually, the Greeks did.

The Tigris and Euphrates valley has been called the cradle of civilization, and for good reason. A lot of good things were invented there, writing, architecture, etc. Then came Islam. The Middle East went from being intellectually forward (inventing the concept of zero, without which computers would not exist) to behind the times in about five hundred years, and they've never caught up. Coincidence? I think not.

Actually it's been established since around 1980 that the earliest forms of democracy occured in Mesopotamia and predated even the kings of Mesopotamia. Theirs was a lot like ours originally...all free adult males were allowed to participate in governance. The Greeks did give it the name and added certain concepts like trial by jury...but the Mesopotamians beat the Greeks by a thousand years or so.

And Islam was a tool to unite the Arabs...it fucking worked and then some. The Muslims and Islam were the most progressive culture on earth for many years...yeah it ran out of gas but it's still a younger religion(In it's current form, it's pagan form of being the worship of the moon god predates christianity and judaism, but Mohammed tweaked it and no one really connects it with paganism anymore) than either Christianity or Judaism and it's just now undergoing it's modernization like those religions had to do in the past.




As for the Japanese, pulling them into the present took about 100 years, from Commodore Perry steaming into Edo (Tokyo) harbor in 1854, until post WWII reconstruction, with two Nukes thrown in for good measure. There were also no jetliners to drive into buildings back then, or we may have been talking about September 11, 1901.

Well it's not like we just discovered Muslims and the Middle East...this conflict has been going on for a few hundred years now. Like WW11 and the Japanese, this zit is now ready to pop.

[LnGrrrR]

Digging through old threads and wow, NBADan was pretty much on target. And given his current posting, I never would have expected Marcus Bryant to be for the war in Iraq.

[admiralsnackbar]

Reading through this, I can only say I'm grateful that the 00's are done with. Gotta say, though: it's a testament to the effectiveness of political advertising that Whott, Yoni, and others were actually serious about the idea that Kerry was the terrorist's choice and that electing him would bring about... the apocalypse?

We'll all laugh about Obama being a socialist and Palin being an American one day, but as contentious as the left/right bullshit is now, it has nothing on those paranoiac days.

[boutons_deux]

"the 00's are done with"

They absolutely aren't done with.

The shit that Whott's people visited on the world is worse than ever with no sign of relenting.

What American "terrorist" would support re-electing a Mexican president who had invaded and occupied America over a opposition candidate?

Whott's American supremacist one-way-street exceptionalism was the odor that stunk up all his positions.

[LnGrrrR]

Some people were very wrong in this thread.

[Nbadan]

Digging through old threads and wow, NBADan was pretty much on target. And given his current posting, I never would have expected Marcus Bryant to be for the war in Iraq.

Whenever I'm wrong, our the perception is that I am wrong, It's usually because the truth just hasn't come around yet. In 2005, I predicted devastating Hurricanes would strike New Orleans and Galveston (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8491)...more amazingly, almost all my predictions came true that year...

...One day, my suspicions on 9/11 will come true too, just wait...

[The Reckoning]

lol conscription in 05

[LnGrrrR]

Whenever I'm wrong, our the perception is that I am wrong, It's usually because the truth just hasn't come around yet. In 2005, I predicted devastating Hurricanes would strike New Orleans and Galveston (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8491)...more amazingly, almost all my predictions came true that year...

...One day, my suspicions on 9/11 will come true too, just wait...

Disagree there NBADan, but you called this one.

[The Reckoning]

ok here's my prediction...


i predict theres going to be a terrible natural occurence that will cost lives in the US in 2011.


wasn't too hard was it?