Pistons v. Bucks...

[Darrin]

Dale Davis and Mo Evans starting tonight. Rasheed and Rip Hamilton inactive for Alex Acker and Amir Johnson.

[Darrin]

Pistons 39, Bucks 54 at the half. Charlie Bell leads all scorers with 12 points. Carlos Delfino is leading the Pistons with 7. Mo Evans is leading the Pistons in minutes with 24. No one else has played more than 12.

[DETROIT_PISTONS]

Amir Johnson !! wow !!! great game for him :elephant

[T.F. Storm]

Amir and Jason were great. I know it's only one game, but even for one game, considering where Joe D picked those guys at in the Draft....Good picks. Maxiell can dunk! He got his first NBA double double too. :elephant

Delfino was solid too. Career high 18 for him, too bad he didnt complete that four point play. :lol

[Darrin]

When LB said that he was "looking forward to coaching that young guy, Amir" I thought it was just posturing. This guy is going to challenge Mo Evans for minutes next season. Wow. I mean, just wow. He was agressive and accurate - that's good. But for a 19-year-old athlete that's been in the NBDL for 18 games and on the Pistons bench for 5 months, he played with smarts. His first three-pointer he started to pass to Delfino and realized his man was fronting Maxiell. He just raised up for the shot and bang! Recognition basketball this early? This kid is going to be good.

That's his 2nd game in the league: 18 points, 2 rebounds, and 2 assists in 18 minutes.

Jason Maxiell: 11 points, 12 rebounds, 2 blocks.
Carlos Delfino: 18 points, 5 rebounds, 2 assists, 2 steals.
Kelvin Cato: 6 points, 4 rebounds, and 1 block.


Watching Maxiell (sans his struggles at the line) and Amir was like watching Memo and Tayshaun in that Philly series three years ago.

[mikejones99]

You will need them all to win this year. Even Dale Davis and Cato.

[Darrin]

You will need them all to win this year. Even Dale Davis and Cato.

That's what they are there for. :)

[mikejones99]

You could have some rusty deep reserves unless Flip plays them more in the easy first round. Unless you play Indiana or Washington. :lol

[JamStone]

Amir Johnson challenging Mo Evans for minutes next year??? Huh???

The kid has horrible shooting mechanics. He has a very low release, and it's almost like he shoots with his elbow from the hips. And, at 6-9, he's also like 150 lbs, or at least looks like it. This isn't a skinny Tayshaun like body frame. He looks much more frail. He looks awkward dribbling the basketball and even has weird posture.

Now, the kid is athletic as hell. But, this kid will be lucky if he plays in as many regular season games next year as he did this year (2). The Pistons will still be one of the best teams in the league. And, this kid is going to challenge for minutes???

Ummmm ... no.

[Vinnie_Johnson]

Amir Johnson challenging Mo Evans for minutes next year??? Huh???

The kid has horrible shooting mechanics. He has a very low release, and it's almost like he shoots with his elbow from the hips. And, at 6-9, he's also like 150 lbs, or at least looks like it. This isn't a skinny Tayshaun like body frame. He looks much more frail. He looks awkward dribbling the basketball and even has weird posture.

Now, the kid is athletic as hell. But, this kid will be lucky if he plays in as many regular season games next year as he did this year (2). The Pistons will still be one of the best teams in the league. And, this kid is going to challenge for minutes???

Ummmm ... no.


You must have missed the game horrible shooting mechanics?? He looked silky smooth draining two threes and hitting all of his shots. He will get some time next year you can bank on it.

[FreshPrince22]

Amir Johnson challenging Mo Evans for minutes next year??? Huh???

The kid has horrible shooting mechanics. He has a very low release, and it's almost like he shoots with his elbow from the hips. And, at 6-9, he's also like 150 lbs, or at least looks like it. This isn't a skinny Tayshaun like body frame. He looks much more frail. He looks awkward dribbling the basketball and even has weird posture.

Now, the kid is athletic as hell. But, this kid will be lucky if he plays in as many regular season games next year as he did this year (2). The Pistons will still be one of the best teams in the league. And, this kid is going to challenge for minutes???

Ummmm ... no.

at the rate he's going I wouldn't be suprised to see him play next year. His jumpers looks a LOT better than they did during pre-season (still a little low, but MUCH better). I mean, as it is Mo needs to be wide open to hit them anyways, so whats the difference? Amir is about 6-10, so he can still get his shot off easily. And sorry, but he's not skinnier than Tayshaun (well, it's close, but Amir is freaking 18!!). He will gain size/strength and I wouldn't be suprised to see him convert back to a Power Forward in the Chris Bosh type mold. Jumper, athletic. Not the first step or handles, but he'll still be able to outquick most PFs. Most importantly, he's got a good touch on the ball around the rim that comes natural to him.

I still don't see how he's worse than Mo Evans. All Mo does is jump and occassional hit threes anyways. He can't dribble or defend, so what's the difference? Might as well play the guy that's about 10 years younger.

Also, this game proved to me that Carlos needs to be handling the ball in the offense for the bench next year. He got to the rim at will, and pretty much every time something good happend. He had a real nice drive and no-look dish for an Amir Dunk, and he had a sweet baseline hesitation then reverse dunk. Even if he missed a layup, he drew so many defenders that Amir/Max were right there for tip-ins. He just looks so much more comfortable playing that role than he does the "camp in the corner" guy. Which comes in handy, because Tony Delk likes to be the "shoot" guy.

[JamStone]

Yes, I watched the game today. Just because someone makes his shots doesn't mean he has good shooting mechanics. It's a function of routine. Amir is used to shooting a certain way and he's somewhat effective out of the rote, perfunctory practice. But, in the long-run, if Amir doesn't improve his shooting mechanics, he will be an average shooter at best. He did not look silky shooting the ball. He made his shots. There's a difference.

Take for example ... I watched a game in which Shaquille O'Neal went 9-10 from the free throw line. That does not mean he has good shooting mechanics.

Amir Johnson has a low release and a slow release.

Amir will probably get stronger and he might convert to a power forward, but not by next season.

Amir is worse than Mo Evans because he's even worse at defense and can dribble even less effectively than Mo Evans. Three of Amir's first five possessions on defense were Bobby Simmons or Michael Redd 3-pointers over him. He doesn't understand how to recover off a hedge by his teammates. He doesn't stay on the balls of his feet to keep square balance as a defender.

His running hook in the lane was really awkward looking. He's obviously extremely athletic and can jump. But, he has miles and miles to go. And, unless you think the Pistons aren't going to be championship contenders next year, Amir will not get meaningful minutes next season.

[Darrin]

I think too much has been made about Amir's size. He looked bigger to me tonight than at the beginning of the season. In training camp, I didn't know if I was supposed to watch him play or sponsor him through "Save the Children."

I'll be disappointed if he's not invited to the dunk contest next season. He made some rookie mistakes, but he looked a lot less confused than any rookie the Pistons have had in the Dumars era with exception to maybe Memo. I emphasize again, this is his second game.

Draftees first game over 15 minutes (since 2000-01):
Mateen Cleaves (11/4/00 vs. Milwaukee): 19 points (7-14 shooting), 2 assists, 1 rebound in 22 minutes.
Amir Johnson (4/18/06 vs. Milwaukee): 18 points (6-6 shooting), 2 rebounds, 2 assists, in 18 minutes.
Brian Cardinal (4/11/01 vs. Toronto): 9 points, 4 rebounds, 3 steals, 1 assist in 18 minutes.
Carlos Delfino (11/6/04 vs. Philadelphia): 6 points, 2 assists, 2 steals, and 1 rebound in 23 minutes.
Rodney White (11/24/01 vs.Memphis): 6 points, 2 rebounds, 2 assists in 18 minutes.
Mehmet Okur (11/6/02 vs. Utah): 5 points, 4 rebounds, and 1 block in 16 minutes.
Tayshaun Prince (11/9/02 vs. Dallas): 5 points, 1 rebound, 1 assist in 17 minutes.
Darko Milicic (12/10/04 vs. Atlanta): 4 points, 6 rebounds, 1 block in 24 minutes.
Jason Maxiell (4/14/06 vs. Toronto): 4 points, 1 rebound in 16 minutes.

[JamStone]

Darrin,

I can appreciate the work and time you put into that, but how can you really compare?

Only Amir, Maxiell, and Cardinal had their first games over 15 minutes in April at the end of the season when games didn't matter.

How many of those other guys when they played those games were playing in garbage minutes? How many were playing against second and third string players?

Even if that were the case, those other players were playing those games in November and December, where nothing was decided for the post season. Second and third string players were still trying to earn more playing time. Those games likely were not pre-season free-for-all types of games like the Milwaukee game was. Milwaukee's players were not only not playing defense, but they had nothing to play for because the third string guys weren't going to earn playing time, and the second string guys didn't want to get hurt for the playoffs. I suspect that even garbage minutes in November and December are fairly competitive.

That is a completely warped statistical comparison.

Amir Johnson won't be invited to the slam dunk contest next year because he won't get any playing time in the regular season. Next to Josh Smith and Andre Iguodala, probably the best athlete and dunker from the 2004 draft class is Dorell Wright. He went to a championship contender in Miami. He tore it up in the summer league, and I suspect he tears it up in the D-League as well, if he was sent down there. He still hasn't earned playing time, even though the Heat need help at the small forward spot. And, he will not be invited to the slam dunk contest.

Amir Johnson will not fight for meaningful minutes next year on the Pistons team.

He's not like Dwight Howard or Amare Stoudemire. And, even if he was anything close to that readiness, the Pistons are not a lottery team, nor do they have the desperate need at any position for him to get regular minutes. He's not better than either Delfino or Evans. He's not.

[Darrin]

Darrin,

I can appreciate the work and time you put into that, but how can you really compare?

Only Amir, Maxiell, and Cardinal had their first games over 15 minutes in April at the end of the season when games didn't matter.

How many of those other guys when they played those games were playing in garbage minutes?

Mateen Cleaves was playing in garbage time. The Pistons were down 80-59 entering the fourth quarter. This was the first game for Detroit against Lindsey Hunter and this was on a back-to-back. The Pistons dropped to 1-3 on the season. Comparatively, I would say this was a very close situation to Johnson's. The difference being that one was considered the primary backup behind Chucky Atkins as a 4-year senior and 2000 NCAA Tournament MVP. The other is Mr. California basketball who's been spending his time in the NBDL.

Brian Cardinal was playing in a very tight game on the road that went into overtime. He earned those minutes in a win vs. the Raptors earlier in the month of April when he sparked a huge Pistons comeback. Vince Carter had a runner along the baseline for the winning shot, 94-92.

Rodney White was playing in a blowout win to the Memphis Grizzlies, but he helped it be a blowout. Stackhouse was out with that groin strain and Corliss Williamson was out with a hip flexor. He was asked to take some of Corliss' minutes, and did well. The Pistons went into the 4th with a 71-66 deficit and ran off 10 straight points to crack open the game. Mehmet Okur was in a tight game comeback victory where he logged most of his minutes in the first half. Zelly Rebraca had, once again, gotten into foul trouble early.

Tayshaun was playing on one of the worst Pistons losses of all-time the 75-114 whupping by the Dallas Mavericks. Darko's game was in that horrific 88-72 flooring that the Hawks laid on the Pistons. Carlos Delfino was involved in a game the Pistons led by 83-67 heading into the fourth quarter.


How many were playing against second and third string players?

So the answer is that six of the nine players on that list played in blowouts.

Even if that were the case, those other players were playing those games in November and December, where nothing was decided for the post season. Second and third string players were still trying to earn more playing time. Those games likely were not pre-season free-for-all types of games like the Milwaukee game was.[/quote]

You're average NBA blowout degenerates into a "pre-season" type atmosphere.


That is a completely warped statistical comparison.

I have a feeling there's not a thing I could say that would make you appreciate a 19-year-old rookie in his second game being agressive, poised, and smart FOR A ROOKIE. By the logic you presented in the argument about the Bucks "playing for nothing" the Pistons should've been able to close the gap.

This late in the season is not about this year. Third-stringers usually are free agents that aren't pursued; second-round picks like Amir Johnson and Alex Acker. When front offices start shopping the bargain bin, there are usually a couple of "feature" games for the guys that don't play. This is such a game. I'm sure the Magic scouted the Pistons-Hawks game from last April when he had 16 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists, and 3 blocks in 30 minutes. If you think there weren't some 3rd stringers on Milwaukee trying to play for a roster spot next season, Jiri Welsh and Jermaine Jackson especially.


Amir Johnson won't be invited to the slam dunk contest next year because he won't get any playing time in the regular season.

Why can't he be the Mo Evans or Carlos Delfino next season? He's raw, but not as raw as I saw in training camp. It's more the intangibles that impress me because what I see is a player that will improve the more he plays.


He's not like Dwight Howard or Amare Stoudemire. And, even if he was anything close to that readiness, the Pistons are not a lottery team, nor do they have the desperate need at any position for him to get regular minutes. He's not better than either Delfino or Evans. He's not.

I didn't say he was better than him; he has more potential. I want him to fill the roles they have this season. I'm not asking him to do more than average 8-15 minutes a night. I don't expect him to go for 18 points a night; I'd be suprised if he reached that total at all next season.

Hopefully there is enough growth in Delfino's offensive game that he can play Delk's role as seventh man behind McDyess. Because of the contract extension for Billups and the outright re-signing of Ben Wallace, I think the Pistons will be very quiet this offseason in terms of trades and outside free agents. I think that's why they traded out of a weak draft. Internal growth will be more important than ever. I'm not sure how Delk comes back. He may come back for half or the full MLE, he may come back for the veteran's exception. But his future with this team is in question, despite the Pistons needing that role filled.

[Marklar MM]

I guess Marion has pretty good shooting mechanics also.

[DarkReign]

I guess Marion has pretty good shooting mechanics also.

Through out this whooooole thread, thats the name that kept coming to mind.

By JamStone's definition, the Matrix shouldnt be in the league because his shot is so damn ugly.

Way to go.... :drunk

[JamStone]

Shawn Marion ... so you guys can think of ONE player out of about 200 guards and small forwards who has terrible shooting mechanics but shoots well.

1 out of 200. 0.5%.

Shawn Marion is the exception, not the norm.

And, Marion has an awkward and low release, but it's quick. Amir Johnson's form is low and slow. The combination has a different effect.

[JamStone]

Darrin,

You didn't address the fact that most of those players played against reserve players fighting for playing time in November and December, except for saying, "You're average NBA blowout degenerates into a "pre-season" type atmosphere." That may be true, but not for as much as 18 minutes of the second half. Maybe the last 2-3 minutes, but not 18.

The difference between November and April blowout games completely changes the dynamics of how those players played the games. A tenth or 11th man on the bench can still perhaps earn regular meaningful minutes during the course of the regular season in garbage minutes of a November regular season game. Rotations, especially playoff rotations, are essentially set by the 80th game of the regular season. So, garbage minutes in April is more like a pick-up game. The last three possessions of the game last night, Alex Acker hadn't scored yet and he knew Maxiell and Amir had had big games, so three straight times he dribbled up the court and shot long jumpers. Kelvin Cato threw a 90 mph heater to a cutting Amir Johnson about 4 feet away who had two defenders on him. There were about ten 2-on-ones or three-on-two fast breaks in that last quarter.

You might see four an entire real, COMPETITIVE regular season NBA game. You see some of that kind of stuff in any blowout, but not for an entire quarter. Not for nearly an entire half. If it had been November, both teams' scrubs would have run sets and played better defense. Last night's second half was played like the final two minutes of a 30 pt blowout for 18 minutes. That's the biggest difference.

And, I'm sorry, but Amir Johnson does not look anywhere close to ready. He hit all his shots. He made all his free throws. That's impressive in its own right. But, he did not look smooth, even when he swished his jumpers. He looked extremely awkward on defense. And, I counted three times on offense that he ran into spots where his teammates were at. I can forgive that because they hadn't practiced with the team very much, but his instincts were not good. 18 minutes and only 2 rebounds for a hungry 6-9 rookie looking to prove something? I counted at least 6 3-pointers being shot and made over Amir Johnson, by three different Bucks.

What intangiblesdid you see from Amir Johnson last night? I know it wasn't anything on defense. His lateral footspeed was slow. His recovery off pick-and-rolls was abysmal. He didn't know how to work under the hedge. He played on the heels of his feet instead of the balls of his feet. One time he went to recover to challenge a 3-point make by Toni Kukoc, he flew up and looked like he was about to have a seizure in the air. Amir's offensive stat line looks impressive. And, I don't criticize him for making his shots. But, he doesn't make that driving hook-shot against first or second string NBA players who are actually trying. He doesn't make that Alex Acker alley-oop tip in against first or second string NBA players who would have challenged him and knocked him on his ass. He may have still made the two handed dunk from Delfino's no-look pass, but only because it was that good of an assist by Delfino. And, he would not have been as open as he was on either 3-pt make against first or second string NBA players who would have been at least a foot closer to challenge those jumpers.

Amir does not look smooth out there. The thing you can say is that he is long and athletic. He's not smooth. He's not necessarily agile. And, he was not smart on the court, contrary to what you say. He did not make one play that demonstrated he is "smart" on the basketball court.

Now, Amir may yet be a very good player in the NBA. But, it will not be as soon as next year. And, he won't be challenging for any quality playing time next season. He won't. He won't. He won't.

[bdubya]

........

How many of those other guys when they played those games were playing in garbage minutes? How many were playing against second and third string players? ....
......... Milwaukee's players were not only not playing defense, but they had nothing to play for because the third string guys weren't going to earn playing time, and the second string guys didn't want to get hurt for the playoffs. I suspect that even garbage minutes in November and December are fairly competitive......




Am I missing something here, or are you saying that Johnson was playing scrubs when Simmons and Redd were raining threes on him? And that a team that could land anywhere from 5th to 8th seed isn't playing for anything? Maybe I need more coffee.....

IMHO it's a little early to pencil Johnson in for the second unit, but from what he did last night, he could well challenge Evans for minutes next year with a little more experience.

[JamStone]

Am I missing something here, or are you saying that Johnson was playing scrubs when Simmons and Redd were raining threes on him? And that a team that could land anywhere from 5th to 8th seed isn't playing for anything? Maybe I need more coffee.....


No, I wasn't saying Amir was playing against scrubs the entire time he was in there. But, he was playing in garbage minutes, even when Redd and Simmons were still in there. The lead was around 25 points when Amir got in the game. And, it remained around 20 pts or more for most of the rest of the game. I think it got down to 17 pts at one point, maybe.

Anyway, a 25 pt lead in the second half against a team that was resting its starters and even many of its main reserves does result in GARBAGE time, even if that team leading is fighting for playoff positioning. The Bucks knew the Pistons weren't going to put Billups, Ben, or Tayshaun back in. They didn't have to worry about a furious rally. It was garbage minutes as soon as Amir first got into the game. And, the Bucks proceeded to pad their stats for a few minutes on the scrubs to make the lead more comfortable.

[Darrin]

Through out this whooooole thread, thats the name that kept coming to mind.

By JamStone's definition, the Matrix shouldnt be in the league because his shot is so damn ugly.

Way to go.... :drunk

Hubie Brown will still tell you that Tayshaun needs to pull in that elbow.

[Darrin]

Darrin,

You didn't address the fact that most of those players played against reserve players fighting for playing time in November and December, except for saying, "You're average NBA blowout degenerates into a "pre-season" type atmosphere." That may be true, but not for as much as 18 minutes of the second half. Maybe the last 2-3 minutes, but not 18.

The difference between November and April blowout games completely changes the dynamics of how those players played the games. A tenth or 11th man on the bench can still perhaps earn regular meaningful minutes during the course of the regular season in garbage minutes of a November regular season game. Rotations, especially playoff rotations, are essentially set by the 80th game of the regular season. So, garbage minutes in April is more like a pick-up game.

I wrote above:

This late in the season is not about this year. Third-stringers usually are free agents that aren't pursued; second-round picks like Amir Johnson and Alex Acker. When front offices start shopping the bargain bin, there are usually a couple of "feature" games for the guys that don't play. This is such a game. I'm sure the Magic scouted the Pistons-Hawks game from last April when he had 16 points, 5 rebounds, 3 assists, and 3 blocks in 30 minutes. If you think there weren't some 3rd stringers on Milwaukee trying to play for a roster spot next season, Jiri Welsh and Jermaine Jackson especially, think again.