Bowen Vs. Ben for DPOY

[PistonsNation]

These two undrafteds make their living as defenders in the league and the two seem to be at the top of most peoples DPOY ballots. So, here's how they shape up in some of the major defensive catagories.

btw - both have played in 81 games.

Bruce Bowen
http://www.nba.com/media/spurs/bowen_140_050619.jpg

Off. Reb. : 35, 0.4pg
Def. Reb. : 284, 3.5pg
Tot. Reb. : 319, 3.9pg

Stls. : 79, 0.98pg

Blks. : 30, 0.37pg

PF: 191, 2.4pg

Ben Wallace
http://www.nba.com/media/pistons/bwallace_140_050619.jpg

Off. Reb. : 300, 3.7pg (#1 in the league)
Def. Reb. : 618, 7.6pg (#5 in the league, #6 drpg)
Tot. Reb. : 918, 11.3 ( #4 in the league, #4 rpg)

Stls. : 145, 1.79 (#7 in the league, #10 spg)
*also, #1 in steals per turnover

Blks. : 178, 2.2pg (#5 in the league, #9 bpg)

PF : 160, 2pg

[Sense]

Wow you're ignorant...


You do know that what Bowen does on the court..... The HUGE impact he creates on the floor is never on stats?

[ReppinTheD]

wutup zeke11!

[nkdlunch]

So, here's how they shape up in some of the major defensive catagories.

too bad the most important defensive categories cannot be summed up in numbers.

[PistonsNation]

Same with Ben. Ben covers so much ground. He changes the game on D like Chauncey does with his offensive prowess. Why the harsh words so quick.

I thought this would be good debate, with out the name calling...

[PistonsNation]

I see ya Reppin. Go Pistons!

[Bruno]

I thought this would be good debate, with out the name calling...

No, it's not. You can't compare stats between a C and a SG/SF, plain and simple.

[cheguevara]

^ Exactly.


On the other hand you CAN compare the fact that Bowen does very well against bigger offensive players, where Ben is usually Shaq's ragdoll.

[FromWayDowntown]

I think the truth is that if voters rely on numbers to decide the DPOY, Bruce Bowen has absolutely no chance to win. If voters rely, instead, on the credit that coaches and players give to intangibles and immeasurables, Bowen has a great chance. The quality of a player's individual defense is remarkably difficult to judge because there are too many variables to account for. I'd like to see Bowen win, if for no other reason than the man deserves that award for at least one season, given that he has been one of the two best perimeter defenders in basketball for the last 5-6 years. It's almost a lifetime achievement award at this point.

Numbers don't tell the whole story, and I think it's foolish to suggest that they might.

[PistonsNation]

^ Exactly.


On the other hand you CAN compare the fact that Bowen does very well against bigger offensive players, where Ben is usually Shaq's ragdoll.

Who isn't?? Bowen does do well on a dynamic group on perimeter players. No question. Both players have loads of intangibles.

I know you can't grade everything off numbers, but those stats don't like, Numbers are a perfect science.

[Sense]

I see ya Reppin. Go Pistons!

Ben covers the easiest part of the game.....

He guards slow players who can't shoot.

Bowen guards Kobe, Lebron, Allen, T-Mac, Artest, Peja, etc..

He gives all of them off-nights with defense....

Defense is not summed up by numbers, and even though Ben gets those...he does not amount to the impact bowen makes for this team, because the Spurs depend ALOT on his defense as well as on their own.

Bowen should get it, but since there are MANY ignorant people like you in this world, he'll get robbed off it again.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

It can still be a good debate, and it has been a good debate all year. But the impression left from your first post appears to be that Ben should win it on basis of his stats.

From all we had to go on it looked like you were resting your argument on a stat comparison between guys who play completely different positions and styles, as well as throwing dirt on Bruce's chances when anyone who has ever talked about Bowen's defense says that it's impossible to quantify. That may not have been your intention but it come across as a weak take to start a thread on, and that will get you flamed around here.

[nkdlunch]

Who isn't??


IMO if the DPOY is a Center he should be able to decently guard Shaq. Ben sucks at it, Rasho defends Shaq better than Ben.

On the other hand Bowen can succesfully defend, Kobe, Lebron, etc.

[Brutalis]

Ben covers the easiest part of the game.....

He guards slow players who can't shoot.

Bowen guards Kobe, Lebron, Allen, T-Mac, Artest, Peja, etc..

He gives all of them off-nights with defense....

Defense is not summed up by numbers, and even though Ben gets those...he does not amount to the impact bowen makes for this team, because the Spurs depend ALOT on his defense as well as on their own.

Bowen should get it, but since there are MANY ignorant people like you in this world, he'll get robbed off it again.
Owned.

Now he must take his bag of candy and get up'd somewhere else.

[Sense]

IMO if the DPOY is a Center he should be able to decently guard Shaq. Ben sucks at it, Rasho defends Shaq better than Ben.

On the other hand Bowen can succesfully defend, Kobe, Lebron, etc.


Did you forget Chauncey and RIP?


I remember when RIP joined the whining club.

[Sec24Row7]

If you want to go my numbers and PER... Duncan should have won the last two years instead of Wallace so I would be careful how much weight you put on numbers.

[PistonsNation]

Defense is not summed up by numbers, and even though Ben gets those...he does not amount to the impact bowen makes for this team, because the Spurs depend ALOT on his defense as well as on their own.



Stop. Ben is just as valuable for the Pistons as Bowen is for the Spurs.

Also it is unfair to say Ben covers the easiest part of the court considering he's undersized for the position. He also covers quicker players. More than any front court player in the league Ben is able to play like a free safety in football. He isn't just some claude who stands in the paint. He even gets some of his blocks off the perimeter on guards and alot of his steals in the backcourt pertering guys up the court.

Stick up for your guy but don't kill your arguement by discounting Big Ben's defensive effectiveness.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Hell, I think it's the games that Bruce played against Dirk that will get him the award. He's giving up how much size to a major MVP candidate and he managed to slow him down considerably.

I wouldn't consider it highway robbery if Wallace won it again, but I think Bruce is the more deserving one.

[nkdlunch]

Stop. Ben is just as valuable for the Pistons as Bowen is for the Spurs.

Also it is unfair to say Ben covers the easiest part of the court considering he's undersized for the position. He also covers quicker players. More than any front court player in the league Ben is able to play like a free safety in football. He isn't just some claude who stands in the paint. He even gets some of his blocks off the perimeter on guards and alot of his steals in the backcourt pertering guys up the court.

Stick up for your guy but don't kill your arguement by discounting Big Ben's defensive effectiveness.


I agree Ben and Bowen are equaly valuable. Let's face it, Ben will win it ONLY because of these reasons:
- Pistons have best record
- He plays more flashy
- He is bigger and has an afro

[Sense]

Stop. Ben is just as valuable for the Pistons as Bowen is for the Spurs.

Also it is unfair to say Ben covers the easiest part of the court considering he's undersized for the position. He also covers quicker players. More than any front court player in the league Ben is able to play like a free safety in football. He isn't just some claude who stands in the paint. He even gets some of his blocks off the perimeter on guards and alot of his steals in the backcourt pertering guys up the court.

Stick up for your guy but don't kill your arguement by discounting Big Ben's defensive effectiveness.

First of all, I'm not AS ignorant as some people.......


Ben is not as valuable as Bowen is for the Spurs, he's the best center in your team.... Bowen is not our best SF, yet he starts for our team... doesn't that tell you something? Ben covers the easiest part and if he's undersized, then the whole NBA is undersized. He never covers quicker players unless it's on a pick and he can't help it. Ben doesn't cover the guards, he intimidates them.... that part I admit works. The Pistons were not as good as a defensive team this year as the past years. I'm not claiming that should be the reason Wallace shouldn't win it, but that just means they didn't really need him as much. The Spurs wins come off defense, all season and since Duncan came into the team.... but since Bowen helped with the SG-Streaky Guards... Let's just say it's been easier.

Killing an argument?

You're not even arguing, you claim with your first post that Bowen has no chance.

[PistonsNation]

I agree Ben and Bowen are equaly valuable. Let's face it, Ben will win it ONLY because of these reasons:
- Pistons have best record
- He plays more flashy
- He is bigger and has an afro

So true. You never even seen his named mentioned for the award when he played with the Bullets.

http://ctchoops.com/ben_wallace_hoops_rc.jpg

[PistonsNation]

First of all, I'm not AS ignorant as some people.......


Ben is not as valuable as Bowen is for the Spurs, he's the best center in your team.... Bowen is not our best SF, yet he starts for our team... doesn't that tell you something? Ben covers the easiest part and if he's undersized, then the whole NBA is undersized. He never covers quicker players unless it's on a pick and he can't help it. Ben doesn't cover the guards, he intimidates them.... that part I admit works. The Pistons were not as good as a defensive team this year as the past years. I'm not claiming that should be the reason Wallace shouldn't win it, but that just means they didn't really need him as much. The Spurs wins come off defense, all season and since Duncan came into the team.... but since Bowen helped with the SG-Streaky Guards... Let's just say it's been easier.

Killing an argument?

You're not even arguing, you claim with your first post that Bowen has no chance.

No I didn't say that, I just posted some relevent numbers. I know numbers aren't everything, but they're not made up. The NBA is not undersized. What are you talking about? I'm stating that at 6'8-9 (questionable) that most of Ben Wallace's nightly assignments are 7' and up.

We're still a great defensive squad. The difference is we have an offense now. The D didn't go anywhere, and Ben is still the back bone of it.

[spur219]

I hope Bowen wins it. I think he is long overdue the award.

[vanvannen]

Wow! How come we didn't see it before. Stats don't lie, Ben Wallace is the best defender the world has ever known. :rolleyes

[PistonsNation]

Wow! How come we didn't see it before. Stats don't lie, Ben Wallace is the best defender the world has ever known. :rolleyes

:rolleyes

[infinite styles]

Bowen guards Kobe, Lebron, Allen, T-Mac, Artest, Peja, etc..


You forgot about Chris Bosh and Dirk.

If you ask me you have to give it to Bowen for being able to put the clamps on at least 2 of the top MVP candidates this season in Dirk and Kobe.

Vs. Kobe
FGM-FGA 3PM-3PA AST TO
Nov. 29 9-33 0-6 0 3
Mar. 6 17-32 3-8 3 2
Mar. 10 11-29 1-5 4 2
Mar. 30 9-26 0-6 2 6

Vs. Dirk
FGM-FGA 3PM-3PA AST TO
Nov. 5 12-20 4-5 2 0
Dec. 1 3-13 1-1 3 2
Mar. 2 6-15 1-5 1 2
April 7 11-24 1-3 2 0

Bowen had a great year against these two and for the most part was a lockdown defender in key situations. Melo had a tough time against him and so did the rest of the leagues top scorers. When Bowen was shutting people down 9 times out of 10 the Spurs won. Having Duncan behind him should not be a knock against him as Ben has had Billups, Prince, Rip and Rasheed surrounding him. Defense is not the most statistically engaged part of the game. To get a true sense of a players defensive ability you must actually watch the games to see what he does and we all know that the Spurs are too "boring" to watch. :rolleyes And if you are the type that lives and dies on stats that try looking at the players offensive stats that go up against Bowen instead of looking at his.

[bdubya]

So, let's resume the whole thread, in two lines:

PistonsNation: " :fro ### "

SpursTalk: " :madrun :madrun :madrun "

(PistonsNation, looks like you found a raw nerve.... :lol )

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

So, let's resume the whole thread, in two lines:

PistonsNation: " :fro ### "

SpursTalk: " :madrun :madrun :madrun "

(PistonsNation, looks like you found a raw nerve.... :lol )

:lol

[Kori Ellis]

There's only about five other threads of the same subject.

You can't really write down the "defensive stats" and say here's the comparison.

Bowen doesn't do anything that comes up in a stat sheet, but he's the best perimeter defender in the game.

I think the voting will be very close for this award.

[PistonsNation]

Voting will not be close for you avatar Kori. That's a winner!

[SenorSpur]

Bruce's contributions and his impact on the game cannot be measured in sheer head-to-head stats.

Unless, of course, you take the time to look at the top 25 scorers in the NBA. Compare their season scoring averages against the rest of the league versus what they scored against Bowen.

Bowen and Artest shuts down the opposing scorer better than anyone in the league. Artest didn't play in enough games to warrant consideration.

Bowen will win it this year - book it!

[picnroll]

Doesn't Rasheed usually matchup against the tougher big man? I know Ben usually wants nothing to do with guys like Duncan and KG.

Bowen great on and off the ball. Ben doesn't rate so great when it comes to on the ball. Sheed's a much better on the ball defender and imo he's the best big man defender on the Pistons.

[PistonsNation]

Sheed does play Duncan very well. Sheed plays KG better in the post, where Ben really does a good job on him outised the paint. Ben isn't the best man defender. I admit that, but by the same accord he's not a slouch. He's more a help defender, which has never detered him from getting the DPOY in years past.

[SenorSpur]

Doesn't Rasheed usually matchup against the tougher big man? I know Ben usually wants nothing to do with guys like Duncan and KG.

Bowen great on and off the ball. Ben doesn't rate so great when it comes to on the ball. Sheed's a much better on the ball defender and imo he's the best big man defender on the Pistons.

I believe that true. If so, that would allow Ben the opportunity to roam, block shots from the weak side and protect the paint. Perhaps the Pistons faithful can confirm this.

One thing it true, mo other big man in the league gives Duncan the headaches that Rasheed does.

[Pistons < Spurs]

I thought we'd already had this argument.

Both players are deserving. I will not be upset or suprised if either if then win it. However my vote goes to Bowen.

It is unimaginable that in 2 or 3 or 4 years when Bowen retires that he will not have recevied at least one DPOY. Plain madness.

Ben had a statistically down year. It wasn't a bad year, but it was not up to the standards that he has set. Yes, he still ranks top ten in Boards, Blocks and Steals but his numbers have definetly taken a hit.

I will not even attempt to argue which of the 2 is more important to their respective teams. It's a dumb argument to have. Their is no way to ascertain a definable winner in that discussion. It'd all be opinion. Whats important is that both make a trememdous impact for their teams.

Where Bowen gets screwed is obviously in the stats. There are no numbers that indicate the impact he has. Where are the stats that show how many times Bruce denied his man the ball? Where is the stat that shows how late into the shot clock Bowen makes his man hold onto the ball w/ no shot. Where is the stat that shows how many poor shots were taken due to his defense? Where does it show how his scrappiness mentally effects some of the best players in the L?

Nothing that he does shows up on a boxscore. But in todays world of interent stat tracking, all people look at is the boxscore, and they ignore what his presence does to an opponent.

Yes much of what Ben does is also not displayed in a stat sheet, but in comparisn to Bowen, much, much more of his work and effort is tabulated.

Also sooo many of the so called sports 'experts' including writers, analysts, tv personalities, radio talent. etc etc watch very few of the games played in a season. Not to mention the east coast guys typically watch more east coast games. Half of these clowns rely on SportsCenter to get thier information. And that is another instance where Bowen is negatively impacted.

You will often see Ben on a weekly or nightly high light w/ a big block, or you'll see a 20 rebound game showcased. But you won't see ESPN scroll through 20 plays where Bowen simply shut down his man.

And because of that, these 'experts' do not see much of Bowen. They remember all the Ben high lights and assume he is far and away the leader for the DPOY.

I'd love for Ben to get his 4th. It would be awesome. But IMO he did not have same caliber of performance that he has in the past. He was not as consistent game in and game out. Also our game is more reliant upon offense than recent years. In past seasons we had many more close games where he HAD to be awesome for us to win. Whereas this year as long as he showed up, we had a very good chance at a victory. Sure, Ben won a few games this year w/ some timely blocks....but it was very little when compared to what we used to require of him.

Bowen on the otherhand, had to be consistent all year for the Spurs to aquire many of the wins they got. Especially with Duncan hobbled. IMO he had to be better this year than ever to makeup for injuries to teamates.

Good luck to both of them. Like I said in the beginning, I won't be mad no matter which of them gets it. But if the award is mine to give, I hand it over to Bruce.

[Jimcs50]

If there is any doubt, look at my sig. Kobe is the best scoring threat in the league and if he says Bruce is the best defender, then you should take heed.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

http://mud.mm-a5.yimg.com/image/2027207428

"It'll be a good contest. Both guys play hard."

[conqueso]

No I didn't say that, I just posted some relevent numbers. I know numbers aren't everything, but they're not made up. The NBA is not undersized. What are you talking about? I'm stating that at 6'8-9 (questionable) that most of Ben Wallace's nightly assignments are 7' and up.

We're still a great defensive squad. The difference is we have an offense now. The D didn't go anywhere, and Ben is still the back bone of it.

I guess I'm kinda paraphrasing what some other posters have written, but the numbers you posted aren't relevant. It's apples and oranges. You can't expect a guy who guards perimeter jump shooters to have high rebounding or block totals...that's just not a fair measuring stick. If those were the important qualifications, no perimeter player would EVER win the award. But it's the only thing that we keep stats on, so it's seductive to try to use those numbers as if they actually mean something.

Meaningful defensive statistics that could be used to compare players playing different positions would take the following form. First, you would have to figure the points scored and field goal percentage per 48 minutes for each player in the league. Then you would have to calculate how many minutes Bruce or Ben spent guarding a particular player. Then (and this is the hard part), you would have to determine the points scored and field goal percentage of that player during the time either Bruce or Ben was guarding them. You take that player's averages for the same period of time without being guarded by Bruce or Ben and compare them to the averages for the period of time when they were guarded by them. The difference between the two numbers would give you a rough "Defensive Effectiveness" calculation, which could be compared among different players playing different positions on the floor. The same could be done for the disparity in opponent's rebounding. Blocks shouldn't be weighted very heavily though, since it's obviously easier to get blocks when you play around the rim than when you're defending a quick guard shooting long-range jumpers.

Incidentally, this was the same method that Carlisle's staff purportedly used when they "independently" determined that Ron Artest was the best defender in the league the year he won DPOY.

Unfortunately, no one (not even 82games) keeps track of that kind of shit. Well, maybe Darrin does, but no one else.

[JamStone]

Bruce's contributions and his impact on the game cannot be measured in sheer head-to-head stats.

Unless, of course, you take the time to look at the top 25 scorers in the NBA. Compare their season scoring averages against the rest of the league versus what they scored against Bowen.


I think Bruce Bowen is very deserving of the DPOY this year whether he gets it or not, but I thought I'd do what just you said anyway with a few premier wing players. Mind you, I don't know if Bruce Bowen was always the primary guy defending each player, as I did not watch most of those games, so "against Bruce" really is "against the Spurs." But, at any rate:


DWYANE WADE

Against Bruce: 33.5 ppg, 45% FG
Season stats: 27.2 ppg, 49.5% FG

CARMELO ANTHONY

Against Bruce: 25.0 ppg, 43.2% FG
Season stats: 26.5 ppg, 48.1% FG

KOBE BRYANT

Against Bruce: 30.0 ppg, 38.3% FG
Season stats: 35.4 ppg, 44.9% FG

VINCE CARTER

Against Bruce: 27.5 ppg, 37.5% FG
Season stats: 24.2 ppg, 43.0% FG

LeBRON JAMES

Against Bruce: 32.0 ppg, 53.1% FG
Season stats: 31.4 ppg, 48.0% FG

RAY ALLEN

Against Bruce: 22.3 ppg, 48.0% FG
Season stats: 25.0 ppg, 45.3% FG

MICHAEL REDD

Against Bruce: 23 ppg, 47.3% FG
Season stats: 25.4 ppg, 45.0% FG


Seems like Bruce does a really good job at guys like Vince Carter and Kobe Bryant and forces them to shoot a lot of jumpers to bring down their FG% but they still get their points. Pure shooters like Redd or Allen, Bruce occasionally does well, but also will give up some good shooting nights to them. And, Bruce does not do to well against bigger, stronger guys like LeBron or strong slashers like Wade.

I know those stats are not completely accurate again since Bruce did not always defend those guys throughout the entire games, but I don't have the access to game footage to go through every possession only Bruce defended those guys in each game. At any rate, Bruce generally does a better job on those players than most of the league, but I'm not so sure it's overwhelmingly better.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Bruce deserves at least one DPOY just for stuffing Billups' shot in the closing minutes of game 7. :hat

[Kori Ellis]

It's not really even about those kind of stats for Bruce Bowen.

It's about games like .. when Zach Randolph or Chris Bosh were going off on the Spurs this season, Bowen was switched onto them and rendered them useless (I don't think either one of them scored when he was on them). It's about going into the playoffs and being ready to guard anyone and everyone. From shutting down Shawn Marion and making him look like a 7th grader to chasing Rip through screens all day and then switching over to Chauncey in the 4th and getting a game sealing block. (Sorry, but it had to be mentioned).

There is absolutely nothing anyone can learn about Bruce Bowen by sitting and compiling stats. But if you watch this guy 82 games a year and see this ~6'6, under 200 pound guy doing whatever it takes and whatever you ask of him, night in and night out, you'll really appreciate him. He watches so much game tape it's ridiculous. He comes early to practice almost everyday. In the offseason, he was there almost every day at 6:30am getting a 3 hour workout in early so he could go home and be with his newborn son.

I don't expect anyone other than true Spurs fans to really appreciate Bowen. And I almost don't expect him to win the award. But after not missing a game in 4 1/2 plus seasons and being the absolute best perimeter defender in the game at almost age 35, the guy deserves it.

[Pistons < Spurs]

CARMELO ANTHONY

Against Bruce: 25.0 ppg, 43.2% FG
Season stats: 26.5 ppg, 48.1% FG


That one kinda impresses me. I guess I always thought that Bowen struggled against Melo's size and athleticism.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Marc Stein ESPN:


DEFENSIVE PLAYER


Bruce Bowen

Throw out Bowen's undeniable (Cal State Fullerton) advantage with this voter and you'll still reach my conclusion. Or at least you should.

Perimeter defenders have never been more limited by the rules in how much they can use their hands on D, yet Bowen's legend -- and ability to frustrate scorers like Ray Allen -- only grows. He's also having perhaps his best stopper season, judging by all the complaints about him, at a time when the true legend at the rim behind him is not nearly as mobile as we're used to seeing because of Duncan's season-long bout with plantar fasciitis.

Ron Artest missed half the season after forcing his way out of Indiana. Two other natural contenders (Marcus Camby and Mourning) didn't quite play enough (games or minutes) to bid for the top slot. Duncan, Minnesota's Kevin Garnett and Detroit's Ben Wallace are always contenders here as well, as are Utah's Andrei Kirilenko and Marion and two of my up-and-coming faves: Gerald Wallace and Atlanta's Josh Smith.

But I have to take someone from one of the two most feared defenses in the league, so it's Bowen or Big Ben. And I'm going with the guy who probably guards more players of different sizes than anyone.

Stein's ballot:

1. Bruce Bowen, San Antonio Spurs

2. Ben Wallace, Detroit Pistons

3. Andrei Kirilenko, Utah Jazz

October prediction: Wallace

[nkdlunch]

Stein knows his shit. He also hasn't changed his pick for Spurs to win it all.

[rayray2k8]

It's not really even about those kind of stats for Bruce Bowen.

It's about games like .. when Zach Randolph or Chris Bosh were going off on the Spurs this season, Bowen was switched onto them and rendered them useless (I don't think either one of them scored when he was on them). It's about going into the playoffs and being ready to guard anyone and everyone. From shutting down Shawn Marion and making him look like a 7th grader to chasing Rip through screens all day and then switching over to Chauncey in the 4th and getting a game sealing block. (Sorry, but it had to be mentioned).

There is absolutely nothing anyone can learn about Bruce Bowen by sitting and compiling stats. But if you watch this guy 82 games a year and see this ~6'6, under 200 pound guy doing whatever it takes and whatever you ask of him, night in and night out, you'll really appreciate him. He watches so much game tape it's ridiculous. He comes early to practice almost everyday. In the offseason, he was there almost every day at 6:30am getting a 3 hour workout in early so he could go home and be with his newborn son.

I don't expect anyone other than true Spurs fans to really appreciate Bowen. And I almost don't expect him to win the award. But after not missing a game in 4 1/2 plus seasons and being the absolute best perimeter defender in the game at almost age 35, the guy deserves it.

Sooooo true..
He does deserves it but more than likely he wont win it.
The voters honestly dont care about DPOY so they go with the lazy pick, and rely on stats, so Big ben usually wins it.
Im not bashing Ben, I would love to have him on my squad,(ooh baby would I :lol) but it would'nt upset me if Ben won it again.

But I agree with "Pistons < Spurs", why even debate on who wins it, if your agruement is based on stats? That would make Ben the clear cut winner if you go with numbers.

Is that what you're looking for? Approval from Spurs fans? :lol then you came knocking on the wrong door my friend. Nice try though.
(Nice Sean Elliot pic by the way) :fro

[JamStone]

It's not really even about those kind of stats for Bruce Bowen.

It's about games like .. when Zach Randolph or Chris Bosh were going off on the Spurs this season, Bowen was switched onto them and rendered them useless (I don't think either one of them scored when he was on them). It's about going into the playoffs and being ready to guard anyone and everyone. From shutting down Shawn Marion and making him look like a 7th grader to chasing Rip through screens all day and then switching over to Chauncey in the 4th and getting a game sealing block. (Sorry, but it had to be mentioned).

There is absolutely nothing anyone can learn about Bruce Bowen by sitting and compiling stats. But if you watch this guy 82 games a year and see this ~6'6, under 200 pound guy doing whatever it takes and whatever you ask of him, night in and night out, you'll really appreciate him. He watches so much game tape it's ridiculous. He comes early to practice almost everyday. In the offseason, he was there almost every day at 6:30am getting a 3 hour workout in early so he could go home and be with his newborn son.

I don't expect anyone other than true Spurs fans to really appreciate Bowen. And I almost don't expect him to win the award. But after not missing a game in 4 1/2 plus seasons and being the absolute best perimeter defender in the game at almost age 35, the guy deserves it.


Kori, I absolutely appreciate what Bruce Bowen does on defense. I just responded to SenorSpur's suggestion to llok at some of those top scorers in the league and see how they do against the Spurs. I said it wasn't very accurate for a number of reasons.

And, the way you describe Bruce Bowen, I'm sure there are many Pistons fans and proponents could say similar things on behalf of Ben Wallace. People will look mainly at his rebounds and blocks, but Ben does so many other things that also don't show up on the stat sheet. Ben is one of the few centers in the league that will man-up without double-teams on EVERY SINGLE center the Pistons face. Shaq plays well on him, but he does as good a job on Shaq by himself as anyone in the league. The poster who suggested Rasho does a better job on Shaq has not seen enough times Ben has played Shaq. Single covering Shaq alone allows defenders to stay home and prevents Shaq teams from having a third competent scorer, and has, as history showed us, resulted in more wins for the Pistons against Shaq-led teams than most other teams.

If there was a stat on "DEFLECTIONS," I would bet Ben Wallace would be at or near the top of that category. Ben is one of the best--probably not the best, but one of them--big men at switching on pick-and-rolls and covering the perimeter player. Just as you list the times Bruce has covered big guys like Bosh or Randolph, Ben has switched on point guards and other perimeter players at game-deciding possessions and has also prospered. I've seen Ben switch on Allen Iverson and stay in front of him.

In closing minutes of games, Ben has blocked or shut down the likes of Shaquille O'Neal, Kevin Garnett, Pau Gasol, Dirk Nowitzki, Andrei Kirilenko, Allen Iverson, Kobe Bryant, and Tim Duncan (that was last year in one of the regular season games).

I could go on, but my point is as much as Spurs fans dote on the wonders Bruce does on defense, Pistons fans have similar feelings on about all the little things Ben does besides rebounding and blocked shots. Oh, and Ben is a top 10 player in STEALS. At the center position. These examples don't even really scratch the surface on what Ben does on defense from a TEAM DEFENSE standpoint.

Take nothing away from Bruce Bowen. I think he's an amazing defender. And, I think he deserves a DPOY. But, I just wanted to say that Ben has statistical quantifiable support with respect to his defense AND he has those intangibles that Spurs fans talk about with respect to Bruce.

[nkdlunch]

I think Bruce Bowen is very deserving of the DPOY this year whether he gets it or not, but I thought I'd do what just you said anyway with a few premier wing players. Mind you, I don't know if Bruce Bowen was always the primary guy defending each player, as I did not watch most of those games, so "against Bruce" really is "against the Spurs." But, at any rate:


DWYANE WADE

Against Bruce: 33.5 ppg, 45% FG
Season stats: 27.2 ppg, 49.5% FG

CARMELO ANTHONY

Against Bruce: 25.0 ppg, 43.2% FG
Season stats: 26.5 ppg, 48.1% FG

KOBE BRYANT

Against Bruce: 30.0 ppg, 38.3% FG
Season stats: 35.4 ppg, 44.9% FG

VINCE CARTER

Against Bruce: 27.5 ppg, 37.5% FG
Season stats: 24.2 ppg, 43.0% FG

LeBRON JAMES

Against Bruce: 32.0 ppg, 53.1% FG
Season stats: 31.4 ppg, 48.0% FG

RAY ALLEN

Against Bruce: 22.3 ppg, 48.0% FG
Season stats: 25.0 ppg, 45.3% FG

MICHAEL REDD

Against Bruce: 23 ppg, 47.3% FG
Season stats: 25.4 ppg, 45.0% FG


Seems like Bruce does a really good job at guys like Vince Carter and Kobe Bryant and forces them to shoot a lot of jumpers to bring down their FG% but they still get their points. Pure shooters like Redd or Allen, Bruce occasionally does well, but also will give up some good shooting nights to them. And, Bruce does not do to well against bigger, stronger guys like LeBron or strong slashers like Wade.

I know those stats are not completely accurate again since Bruce did not always defend those guys throughout the entire games, but I don't have the access to game footage to go through every possession only Bruce defended those guys in each game. At any rate, Bruce generally does a better job on those players than most of the league, but I'm not so sure it's overwhelmingly better.

they still get their points cause A) Bowen doesn't guard them EVERY minute they play, and B) Bowen's great defense shines brighter when it matters(4th quarter or big plays) so those numbers don't paint the picture

[PistonsNation]

Stein knows his shit. He also hasn't changed his pick for Spurs to win it all.

In that same article Stein picks Boris Diaw for most improved (not bad), but his runners up are off. Tny Parker and Carmelo??? What about David West and Mike James?

[nkdlunch]

And another thing, if we hold those superstars to their average, that is a great accomplishment. Mainly because those superstars always bring their A game vs. Spurs.

[JamStone]

nkdlunch,

I qualified everything you said in my post. Did you read anything but those stats?

[nkdlunch]

yup

[Kori Ellis]

If you want to see some stats that matter on Bowen, here you go ...

Playoffs 2005

Carmelo Anthony
Against Spurs, 19.2 ppg on 42%.

Ray Allen
Against Spurs, 21.5 ppg on 43%. (In the first round he had averaged 32ppg)

Shawn Marion
Against Spurs, 7.8 ppg on 39%. (Over the first two rounds he had averaged over 22ppg on over 50% shooting)

Rip Hamilton
Against Spurs, 16.7 ppg on 39%. (Over the first three rounds he had averaged over 20ppg on nearly 50% shooting)

[JamStone]

Great stats Kori.

But, just to play devil's advocate ... the DPOY is a regular season award, not a previous playoffs included award.

[Kori Ellis]

Great stats Kori.

But, just to play devil's advocate ... the DPOY is a regular season award, not a previous playoffs included award.

:angel
I wasn't pointing out why he should get the award. Just pointing out why he's the best defender in the league :)

[JamStone]

Fair enough.

Just making a point.

[theMUHMEshow]

I am sick of the piston fans using their blinders when they validate Ben as a better defender than Bowen.

Bowen gets my vote...

[JamStone]

Not that many Pistons fans have blinders when it comes to Ben. I've seen a lot of Pistons fans on this site and the pistons.com site say Bruce Bowen deserves the DPOY this year.

[SpursWoman]

If you want to go my numbers and PER... Duncan should have won the last two years instead of Wallace so I would be careful how much weight you put on numbers.


For DPoY, though?


http://www.boomspeed.com/sweetc/duncan.JPG


He'd definitely beat him out for the OPoY award. :)

[PistonsNation]

I am sick of the piston fans using their blinders when they validate Ben as a better defender than Bowen.

Bowen gets my vote...

Not surprising. You've got a rep for being an anti-Detroit Detroit fan if that makes much sense. Objectionality doen't mean you picking against the homers. It's more to do with giving each guy his due. While both our legitimate top contenders I think our guy should take home the trophy again. His numbers are down from past campaigns, but I wouldn't say he's done anything not to deserve it.

I wouldn't be disappointed if Bowen won. But Ben derserves it every bit as much.

[DDS4]

As Kori mentioned before, the thing that impresses me most about Bowen is that he guards all positions other than centers. And he does it effectively.

That's the thing that sets him apart from Ben.

[Sec24Row7]

For DPoY, though?


http://www.boomspeed.com/sweetc/duncan.JPG


He'd definitely beat him out for the OPoY award. :)


Buh I'm just going by what number guy Hollinger has said for years now. I don't agree with the numbers assesment. Timmy and Ben are really close in the numbers dept, but Timmy is a more valuable defender for the Spurs than Ben for the pistons.

[ChumpDumper]

Guys, this debate is useless.

Ray Allen called Stu Jackson and had Bruce taken off the ballot.

[polandprzem]

Guys, this debate is useless.

Ray Allen called Stu Jackson and had Bruce taken off the ballot.
:pctoss



------------
Well we can argue which one is better defender. It's almost impossible because oif the positions and styles of play.
Now we have two great defenders and we have one vote. Who to pick? The more valuable to his team or the guy who is doing the best job shutting down opponents.
Another thing - best defender - best defender in this season.
To me Bowen is the best this year. As Pistons fans said (well for sure P<S said that) Ben is not having a monster year. And Bowen is doing his job every night. I'm amazed what he did this season cause as I said last year if not this year (2005) then never. Now it is a possibility to get the DPOTY 2006 award.

Ben is strong, but he is mobile. He can go on the permiter and guard in "mismatches", he can rotate fast and Detroit having him out there is a realy blessing to them. cause he makes from those mismatches an adventage for his team.
In other hand we know what value have Bruce.
Tough choice who is a better defender
But easy to me taht this year's DPOTY is BB

[SpursWoman]

Guys, this debate is useless.

Ray Allen called Stu Jackson and had Bruce taken off the ballot.



:lmao :lmao :lmao

[pache100]

Did you forget Chauncey and RIP?


I remember when RIP joined the whining club.

And that nancy-boy, Ray Allen.

[Sense]

Guys, this debate is useless.

Ray Allen called Stu Jackson and had Bruce taken off the ballot.
:lmao

[GC FROM THE D]

While Ben and Bruce are the two likely winners this season, both benefit from playing alongside the top two collectively great defensive units in the L. Wallace and Bowen provide intangibles that cannot be reviewed through statistics. Bruce is the premier individual defender while Ben dominates the paint. Big Ben is that one symbol and presence that defines the Pistons yet Bruce is that player that can deflate potential matchup problems from the big time perimeter stars. At the least Bruce should get a DPOY before his career ends and it seems that this will be the year as there have been no clearcut front runners for the award. Artest, AK47, Josh Smith and Gerald Wallace will have their opportunities in the forthcoming seasons- this year goes to one of the veterans that are drifting to the downside of their careers.

[bdubya]

Eh, it's close, but I guess this year I'd lean towards Bowen. Ever so slightly.

[theMUHMEshow]

Not surprising. You've got a rep for being an anti-Detroit Detroit fan if that makes much sense. Objectionality doen't mean you picking against the homers. It's more to do with giving each guy his due. While both our legitimate top contenders I think our guy should take home the trophy again. His numbers are down from past campaigns, but I wouldn't say he's done anything not to deserve it.

I wouldn't be disappointed if Bowen won. But Ben derserves it every bit as much.

Say what you wish Zeke...

[texasgirl09]

bowen is a way better defender period

[nkdlunch]

Not surprising. You've got a rep for being an anti-Detroit Detroit fan if that makes much sense. Objectionality doen't mean you picking against the homers. It's more to do with giving each guy his due. While both our legitimate top contenders I think our guy should take home the trophy again. His numbers are down from past campaigns, but I wouldn't say he's done anything not to deserve it.

I wouldn't be disappointed if Bowen won. But Ben derserves it every bit as much.


If you can please, tell me in 1 sentence why Ben should win it over Bowen. Forget the stats. thanks

[JamStone]

bowen is a way better defender period

why?

[polandprzem]

Here we go again :rolleyes

[JamStone]

If you can please, tell me in 1 sentence why Ben should win it over Bowen. Forget the stats. thanks



1 sentence, huh? Let's see ...

Ben has more of an impact on more possessions defensively because he blocks and alters shots with help-defense, switches on pick-and-rolls, denies and defends the post when the ball is delivered inside, and when perimeter players shoots, he is rebounding missed shots, while Bruce's primary objective is to deny the best perimeter scorer or make their shots more difficult.


That would be my one sentence without using stats to support the answer. Bruce is very deserving. But, even with his stats down this year from previous years, Ben is also very deserving should he win it over Bruce.

[Manu20]

http://sports.espn.go.com/media/nba/2003/0507/photo/a_bowen_vi.jpg

I want my DPOY award!

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Allow me to settle this once and for all as to why Bowen should win. Bruce Bowen plays for the Spurs. Therefore he is a beacon of all that is right and good in the NBA, if not the world, who rose to the top of his defensive game through tireless effort. Ben Wallace does not play for the Spurs. As a result he is most likely a minion of Satan and achieved his defensive prowess through an unholy pact with Lucifer. So in the end you really have to give Bruce the award, because Ben is really just cheating.

And now this thread and this entire debate can be closed once and for all. You're welcome everybody.

[nkdlunch]

1 sentence, huh? Let's see ...

Ben has more of an impact on more possessions defensively because he blocks and alters shots with help-defense, switches on pick-and-rolls, denies and defends the post when the ball is delivered inside, and when perimeter players shoots, he is rebounding missed shots, while Bruce's primary objective is to deny the best perimeter scorer or make their shots more difficult.


That would be my one sentence without using stats to support the answer. Bruce is very deserving. But, even with his stats down this year from previous years, Ben is also very deserving should he win it over Bruce.

WTF?? I said a sentence not the definition of defender off the NBA dictionary.

anyway I'd like pistonnation to answer since he's the one who brought up the stats

[JamStone]

Allow me to settle this once and for all as to why Bowen should win. Bruce Bowen plays for the Spurs. Therefore he is a beacon of all that is right and good in the NBA, if not the world, who rose to the top of his defensive game through tireless effort. Ben Wallace does not play for the Spurs. As a result he is most likely a minion of Satan and achieved his defensive prowess through an unholy pact with Lucifer. So in the end you really have to give Bruce the award, because Ben is really just cheating.

And now this thread and this entire debate can be closed once and for all. You're welcome everybody.


Even if Bruce is a beacon of all that is right and good in the NBA ...

though shalt not kick thy neighbor in the back out of malicious anger, even if that neighbor is a bitch.

[FromWayDowntown]

1 sentence, huh? Let's see ...

Ben has more of an impact on more possessions defensively because he blocks and alters shots with help-defense, switches on pick-and-rolls, denies and defends the post when the ball is delivered inside, and when perimeter players shoots, he is rebounding missed shots, while Bruce's primary objective is to deny the best perimeter scorer or make their shots more difficult.


That would be my one sentence without using stats to support the answer. Bruce is very deserving. But, even with his stats down this year from previous years, Ben is also very deserving should he win it over Bruce.

By your logic, though, no wing or guard should ever be in position to win DPOY, since those guys will never block shots and rebound the way that defensive-minded bigs do. I've yet to see Ben Wallace spend more than an isolated possession on a guard; I've seen Bruce Bowen spend entire games on 7 footers. Why is Bowen's ability to do that somehow not worth crediting and Ben's ability to defend down a difference maker? That's ridiculously inconsistent -- besides, if Ben is a marvel as a post defender because he's undersized, doesn't that cut against the argument that he impresses by playing well enough against guards? While I absolutely accord Ben Wallace the respect he's due as one of the premier defenders in NBA history, I'm not sure how you can have it both ways.

My point lies in paraphrasing your statement:

Bruce has a significant impact on every possession defensively because he denies the ball to the other team's best wing or guard, contests and denies shots with man-defense, switches onto teams hottest scorers and most dangerous penetrators, and does that without the aid of double-teams while fighting through screens specifically aimed at picking him off.

The difference is rebounding and shot blocking, but, again, that's to be expected with the difference between a wing and a center. It's precisely why numbers don't work to make the point -- and that inherent statistical difference is precisely why the head-up-its-ass media vote routinely for bigs.

[ShoogarBear]

Bruce didn't instigate The Brawl.

[cheguevara]

thanks shooga, my eyes hurt

[polandprzem]

Bruce didn't instigate The Brawl.

Rolleyes ;)

[ShoogarBear]

I think I have a new favorite font color.

[SpursWoman]

I think I have a new favorite font color.



You should try white.

;)

[polandprzem]

SW :lol

[JamStone]

By your logic, though, no wing or guard should ever be in position to win DPOY, since those guys will never block shots and rebound the way that defensive-minded bigs do.

Shawn Marion. Check out his rebounding and blocked shot stats even before these last two years when he's played out of position as a power forward. Even before the 2004-05 season, Marion was close to double digit rebounds every season and over 1.0 blocked shot a game every season AS A WING.

Andrei Kirilenko. Check out his blocked shots and rebounding.

Gerald Wallace. Same thing.


I've yet to see Ben Wallace spend more than an isolated possession on a guard; I've seen Bruce Bowen spend entire games on 7 footers.

ENTIRE games??? ENTIRE? I've read about him playing Dirk and Bosh at the end of fourth quarters. But, the entire game? Can I get confirmation on that?



Why is Bowen's ability to do that somehow not worth crediting and Ben's ability to defend down a difference maker? That's ridiculously inconsistent -- besides, if Ben is a marvel as a post defender because he's undersized, doesn't that cut against the argument that he impresses by playing well enough against guards?

I see and have read about Bruce covering 7-footers that are perimeter oriented. Dirk, Bosh. I don't read much about Bruce defending these bigger players who consistently stay in the post. I just read about Zach and Brand. Did Bruce really defend those two for long stretches and were they in the post when he defended them? That could sway my opinion. And, Ben being a good post defender because he is undersized does NOT contradict the notion of being impressive by playing well against guards because Ben is undersized to play the post because of his HEIGHT. His BULK and STRENGTH is still that of a post player. The way he has sculpted and put mass on his body in order to play the post at this level inherently takes away some of his quickness and agility, so it still is impressive when he switches out on guards.





My point lies in paraphrasing your statement:

Bruce has a significant impact on every possession defensively because he denies the ball to the other team's best wing or guard, contests and denies shots with man-defense, switches onto teams hottest scorers and most dangerous penetrators, and does that without the aid of double-teams while fighting through screens specifically aimed at picking him off.

The difference is rebounding and shot blocking, but, again, that's to be expected with the difference between a wing and a center. It's precisely why numbers don't work to make the point -- and that inherent statistical difference is precisely why the head-up-its-ass media vote routinely for bigs.


If Bruce is denying the best perimeter scorer on the other team and that team is pounding the ball inside to the post and scoring effectively, does Bruce still have that much of an impact on defense?

If Ben is holding his own on his post, he still has to be wary of slasher and dribble drive penetrations to help and he also has to clear the missed shot rebounds.

And, yes, inherently, the big men will have more of an impact because of that difference. And, you will find that traditionally, DPOY winners have been center shot-blockers and rebounders. But again, it doesn't stop guys like Andrei Kirilenko, Shawn Marion, or Gerald Wallace from mixing it up enough on defense to help out in those areas. In fact, look what a 6-foot-7, 215 pound Dennis Rodman did at the small forward position.

[JamStone]

Bruce didn't instigate The Brawl.


Neither did Ben Wallace.

[Darrin]

Here's Ben Wallace's affect on the Pistons success:

Without Wallace (22 games):
Overall Record: 9-13 (.409)
Points For: 94.6
Points Against: 96.3
Point Margin: -1.7
Field Goal Pecentage For: .449 (739-1,646)
Field Goal Percentage Against: .467 (814-1,742)
Shot Attempt Margin: -96 (in 22 games)
Field Goal Margin: -.018
Rebounds For: 39.4
Rebounds Against: 41.8
Rebound Margin: - 2.4

With Wallace (469 games):
Overall Record: 295-174 (.629)
Points For: 93.6
Points Against: 89.9
Point Margin: +3.7
Field Goal Pecentage For: .440 (16,275-37,027)
Field Goal Percentage Against: .434 (16,134-37,156)
Shot Attempt Margin: -126 (in 469 games)
Field Goal Margin: +.006
Rebounds For: 42.0
Rebounds Against: 41.6
Rebound Margin: +.4

I remind you, my vote is for Bruce Bowen because I don't want him to be the next Vinnie Johnson (he never won the Sixth Man of the Year). But Big Ben is a giant eraser of Pistons' mistakes on both ends of the court.

[polandprzem]

All I want to say that there are differens styles of defense.

You can't compare marion or gerald stats to bruce and claim that thay are better because of the numbers. This is not a game of stats allthough you can get many of those. Vut you can't look at like it is what defines the player
Anybody chhecked Mitch Richmond stats? Stephon marbury stats? Where are they in the history? What about great Kevin garnett? Superb stats no ring, great indywidual without great impact to the game...

[JamStone]

I can absolutely compare Marion and Gerald to Bruce because FromWayDowntown stated that wing players, "will never block shots and rebound the way that defensive-minded bigs do." The belief that wing players cannot put up numbers in those categories was false, in my opinion. Small forwards can be great all around defenders that also rebound well and block shots. That's why I also mentioned Dennis Rodman. I could also add Shane Battier, Josh Smith, Richard Jefferson to the list of wing players who will not only defend the best perimeter defender, but will also rebound and block shots. I'm just challenging the notion that wing players will never rebound and block shots the way defensive minded bigs will. My examples offer evidence to the contrary.

[Tanya]

Bowen is great. But to say the pistons doesn't need Big Ben like they used to is just silly. Big Ben is our hope to the champ. Bowen guards the best player of the opposite team, but Ben is everywhere on the floor when he plays detroit basketball. He blocks, steals, rebounds, he does every little thing on defense for us. Without him I doubt our chance to pass second round.

Both of them deserve this award. Spurs fans don't need to lower Ben's value if they think Bowen should get this award, and Pistons fans shouldn't do the same thing too.

[Darrin]

Bowen is great. But to say the pistons doesn't need Big Ben like they used to is just silly. Big Ben is our hope to the champ. Bowen guards the best player of the opposite team, but Ben is everywhere on the floor when he plays detroit basketball. He blocks, steals, rebounds, he does every little thing on defense for us. Without him I doubt our chance to pass second round.

Both of them deserve this award. Spurs fans don't need to lower Ben's value if they think Bowen should get this award, and Pistons fans shouldn't do the same thing too.

I agree with everything you have said. They are like comparing apples and radio satellite towers. And to recognize one shouldn't be a slight to the other.

The Pistons still need Ben Wallace. He hasn't missed a game this season, and the result has been a 10-game improvement over last season. The Pistons were 3-5 without Wallace last season - that's with Antonio McDyess and Rasheed Wallace starting.

They still need him.

[FromWayDowntown]

Shawn Marion. Check out his rebounding and blocked shot stats even before these last two years when he's played out of position as a power forward. Even before the 2004-05 season, Marion was close to double digit rebounds every season and over 1.0 blocked shot a game every season AS A WING.

Andrei Kirilenko. Check out his blocked shots and rebounding.

Gerald Wallace. Same thing.

Fair enough. I concede that the statistical disparity might not always be as great as I had claimed. I nevertheless think you're overstating the importance of blocked shots and rebounding as illustrative of a player's defensive quality. Is a guy who rotates from the weakside to block shots a great defensive player? I'm not so sure. Is a guy who gets torched off the dribble but happens to clean up the mess with defensive rebounds a great defensive player? I wouldn't say that he was. (and, for the sake of clarity, I'm not contending that those traits are true for any of the examples you give -- I'm just trying to show that blocked shots and rebounds, as statistical measures, don't necessarily say much about a defender). There's a great deal more to playing great defense than ever shows up in pure numbers.


ENTIRE games??? ENTIRE? I've read about him playing Dirk and Bosh at the end of fourth quarters. But, the entire game? Can I get confirmation on that?

I see and have read about Bruce covering 7-footers that are perimeter oriented. Dirk, Bosh. I don't read much about Bruce defending these bigger players who consistently stay in the post. I just read about Zach and Brand. Did Bruce really defend those two for long stretches and were they in the post when he defended them? That could sway my opinion.

Yes, Bruce spends entire evenings with Dirk, and despite that size difference and Dirk's awesome offensive ability, held him in check. The Bosh game was a crucial chunk of a 4th Quarter and OT -- more than just a few possessions. Same with Randolph.



If Bruce is denying the best perimeter scorer on the other team and that team is pounding the ball inside to the post and scoring effectively, does Bruce still have that much of an impact on defense?

Sure, if the best perimeter scorer is the opponent's biggest threat. I'll ask the question differently: if Bruce is denying the best perimeter scorer on the other team and that team is left to ineffectively move the ball into the post, does Bruce have that much of an impact on defense? My answer would be yes, unequivocally. And in this era, I think the ability of a wing player to have that sort of effect on perimeter scorers cannot be undervalued.


And, yes, inherently, the big men will have more of an impact because of that difference. And, you will find that traditionally, DPOY winners have been center shot-blockers and rebounders. But again, it doesn't stop guys like Andrei Kirilenko, Shawn Marion, or Gerald Wallace from mixing it up enough on defense to help out in those areas. In fact, look what a 6-foot-7, 215 pound Dennis Rodman did at the small forward position.

Now is that true because big men have more of an impact or is it true because big men have stats that make it appear that they have more of an impact on games? I'm not denying that a great defensive big can anchor a defense. For crissakes, I think the single most underrated defender in basketball is Tim Duncan -- it's flat-out robbery that Timmy doesn't already have a DPOY award. But there are wings who can have an effect defensively that is different only in kind but not in degree to the effect that bigs have.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

Melo had a tough time against him

Nov 1 - Melo 10 from 17, 23pts, 8boards, 4assists, 1 block

Dec 31 - Melo 8 - 22, 25pts, 8boards, 3 assists - tough night

January 22nd - Melo 4 from 19, 20pts, 8boards, 1 assist, 1 steal - tough night


March 22nd - 13 from 23, 32pts, 3 boards, 3 assists


so id say melo has had his way with Bowen twice this season and Bowen has slowed down Melo twice this season as well, id say its pretty even. Bowen isnt in Melo's head as much as his first 2 seasons in the league.......

Interestingly enough, Melo's toughest night against Bowen was the Nuggets first win vs the Spurs this season.

[JamStone]

Yes, Bruce spends entire evenings with Dirk, and despite that size difference and Dirk's awesome offensive ability, held him in check. The Bosh game was a crucial chunk of a 4th Quarter and OT -- more than just a few possessions. Same with Randolph.

Impressive. But, Dirk is not a "big man" in the traditional sense because he is perimeter-oriented. I would like to watch the game Bruce defended Randolph. That sounds extremely impressive.





Now is that true because big men have more of an impact or is it true because big men have stats that make it appear that they have more of an impact on games?


I'm not saying it's fair. But, over the course of the history of the NBA, big men were the best defenders by nature of the game. With rule changes, some perimeter wing defenders became more notably recognized, such as Michael Cooper and Mike and Gary Payton and now Bruce.

But, again, not that it's fair, but by the nature of how the game is played, big men will be afforded more opportunities to affect the game defensively and that's why more often than not, those big men get more recognition than wing players.



I'll say it again, I think Bruce Bowen deserves the DPOY this year. I got into this discussion when some people mentioned that Bruce was a "way better defender" or that he deserved it MORE than Ben.

[rayray2k8]

oh christ.
I think only spurs fans and piston fans are allowed to speak. :rolleyes

[rayray2k8]

Im referring to nuggets fan by the way.

[Darrin]

Is a guy who rotates from the weakside to block shots a great defensive player? I'm not so sure.

I think this is good defense at the rim. If a player is defended one-on-one, and he finally gets around his man, and there's a weak-side shot-blocker taking his shot, that's intimidating the rim. That offensive player, after two or three times of that happening, is looking for Ben more than focusing on his shot once he blows by Rip or Chauncey or Tayshaun. That's altering a shot, even if Ben isn't there. I can remember a Keith Van Horn blowing a wide-open at-the-rim lay-in in Game 3 against the Bucks in 2004 because he was looking for Big Ben That's the art of shot-blocking.

Another thing about Big Ben's blocked shots, he keeps most of them in-bounds. The only time he throws one out, that I have seen, is if a player is going off on the Pistons (D-Wade in late 2004 comes to mind) or if the game is well in-hand and he's playing a little to the crowd. His blocks stay in-bounds, and turn into outlet passes that create a high-percentage shot.

Those stats alone - blocking shots and rebounds - aren't enough. But when a smart player gathers them for the sake of the team and not his individual accolades, they are just as important as keeping a perimeter scorer from their sweet spot.



There's a great deal more to playing great defense than ever shows up in pure numbers.

Amen. We are so far behind being able to statistically quantify defensive impact because it's a more inexact science and people don't usually put up posters of Kareem Abdul-Jabbar because he averaged 4 blocks in a season. They put up his poster because he's a 6-Time Champion and the NBA's All-Time Leading scorer.


Yes, Bruce spends entire evenings with Dirk, and despite that size difference and Dirk's awesome offensive ability, held him in check. The Bosh game was a crucial chunk of a 4th Quarter and OT -- more than just a few possessions. Same with Randolph.

Bowen is probably the best on-the-ground defender in the NBA. The Pistons long arms and athletic ability allow them to play mindgames with the opposing players by thinking they have their shot, and being able to block it once it's in the air. Most of the Pistons perimeter defenders do their work before the ball is thrown to that player by denying the ball and pushing players out of their comfort zone. Bowen is good at that, but he's probably just as good at pursuing and staying infront of that player after they have the ball and before they take a shot than any other player in the league, including Ron Artest. Artest's style is to play the ball, not the man. And that's a completely different mentality in Bowen.



Sure, if the best perimeter scorer is the opponent's biggest threat. I'll ask the question differently: if Bruce is denying the best perimeter scorer on the other team and that team is left to ineffectively move the ball into the post, does Bruce have that much of an impact on defense? My answer would be yes, unequivocally. And in this era, I think the ability of a wing player to have that sort of effect on perimeter scorers cannot be undervalued.

I don't accept that Gerald Wallace and Shawn Marion are perimeter players. Wallace is playing with Sean May and Emeka Okafor shut down for the season, and the Suns have been without a serious post player for a very, very long time.


I'm not denying that a great defensive big can anchor a defense.

You better not. Ben denies cutter into the lanes, forces baseline screeners out of bounds so they are not a scoring threat, is able to stay with perimeter players if they switch a screen-and-roll, pressures the ball by himself in the backcourt, and acts as the security blanket for all of the Pistons perimeter players, even game-planning to run talented wings into the shot-blockers of the Pistons. He's all over the place. And so was Dikembe Mutombo, Alonzo Mourning, and Dennis Rodman, and all of these other players. Defense is played 94 feet if you're good, but Big Ben is the first and last line of defense.

A team can play lock-down defense for 24 seconds on the Pistons, he'll crash the offensive boards off a bad shot, get it out to a wing player as the defense scrambles to find the ball, and there's Chauncey making a 3. How infuriating and deflating that is for teams.

Ben's greatness isn't in his stats. It's just that people who don't watch what he does rely on them to justify the 3 DPOYs in 4 Years. He's not a stat hog.

[JamStone]

Gerald Wallace was blocking shots like crazy last year at the small forward position. His rebounding numbers might be up because he's played some power forward. But, he's also playing 4 more minutes a game.

Shawn Marion has primarily played small forward before the last two seasons and he's always been an elite rebounder and very good shot blocker. Regardless if the Suns power forward and centers were not strong, Marion was still playing the small forward spot for four years and putting up crazy rebounding and blocked shot stats.

[Darrin]

Gerald Wallace was blocking shots like crazy last year at the small forward position. His rebounding numbers might be up because he's played some power forward. But, he's also playing 4 more minutes a game.

Shawn Marion has primarily played small forward before the last two seasons and he's always been an elite rebounder and very good shot blocker. Regardless if the Suns power forward and centers were not strong, Marion was still playing the small forward spot for four years and putting up crazy rebounding and blocked shot stats.

But you cannot deny that the teams didn't have any even servicable players at the power positions, and that has led them to take on those roles, no matter their listed position.

[JamStone]

Rashard Lewis hasn't become a premier rebounder or shotblocker in the absence of serviceable big men in Seattle.

Ryan Bowen did not explode into a defensive superstar with all of the injuries to Tracy and Yao.

Al Harrington is bigger and stronger than both Marion and Gerald Wallace and he does't have better rebounding or blocked shot numbers than either, despite the lack of quality big men in Atlanta.

Carmelo Anthony didn't all of a sudden become a great rebounder and/or shotblocker with all of the games Kenyon Martin and Marcus Camby missed.


At some point, you have to give credit to players like Shawn Marion, Gerald Wallace, and Kirilenko for putting forth the effort and energy to do those things no matter who is missing from the line-up.

[Darrin]

Rashard Lewis hasn't become a premier rebounder or shotblocker in the absence of serviceable big men in Seattle.

Ryan Bowen did not explode into a defensive superstar with all of the injuries to Tracy and Yao.

Al Harrington is bigger and stronger than both Marion and Gerald Wallace and he does't have better rebounding or blocked shot numbers than either, despite the lack of quality big men in Atlanta.

Carmelo Anthony didn't all of a sudden become a great rebounder and/or shotblocker with all of the games Kenyon Martin and Marcus Camby missed.


At some point, you have to give credit to players like Shawn Marion, Gerald Wallace, and Kirilenko for putting forth the effort and energy to do those things no matter who is missing from the line-up.

I actually respect Kirilenko and Marion for their all-around games, and will have to see Gerald Wallace on a winning team to think he has something (Ben Wallace had 13.2 rebounds, 2.3 blocks, and 1.3 steals in 2000-01 and got as many DPOY votes as I did).

Rashard Lewis has the opportunity at any time to step up, whether he chooses to or not, whether he can or not. All I am asking you to do is to stop thinking about Shawn Marion and Gerald Wallace as perimeter players. I wouldn't call them great defensive players, more like all-around players who do what is asked of them.

I respect their games as jacks of all trades. I wouldn't consider them a master of the defensive skills.

[SenorSpur]

On yesterday, I was listening to our local Sports Talk radio here in Dallas. One of the local NBA Beat writers (Dwain Price - Fort Worth Star Telegram) was on discussing post season awards. During the discussion, he claimed he would cast his vote for Bowen.

In fact, he stated he polled about 1/3 of the writers with whom he is acquainted with. Most of them have claimed they cast their vote for Bowen.

On the Dan Patrick show today, Dan claims he has cast his vote for DPOY to Tim Duncan.

Bowen will win the award - book it!

[JamStone]

Who called them masters of defensive skills? I certainly did not.

I mentioned them in the first place to give examples of wing players who can rebound and block shots as well as many defensive minded big men, in response to FromWayDowntown's notion that there aren't any.

And, they are perimeter players. Shawn Marion cannot post down low. Gerald Wallace cannot post down low. Neither is very good at post defense either. They are both 6-7. Marion bulked up this season, but his playing weight had been traditionally around 220. Same for Gerald. They are wing players.

But, just because they have spent time playing power forward for their respective teams, that doesn't take anything away from the fact that they excelled at doing what was asked of them.

Go up to Desmond Mason and tell him to get 9-10 rebounds a game and block two shots a game. Think he will?

Ask that of Bobby Simmons, Hedo Turkoglu, Caron Butler, Peja Stojakovic, Mike Dunleavy, Kyle Korver. Could any of those guys consistently get 9-10 rebounds and 2 blocks over the course of a regular season?

And, about Rashard Lewis ... that's exactly what I mean. He's had the opportunity to get more rebounds and be more of a shotblocker. But, he hasn't. That's the point. He either can't or doesn't have the desire and mentality to do so.

That's why you should appreciate what Kirilenko and Marion and Wallace and Jefferson do even more. Just because they're been asked to do it, doesn't mean it's easy to do so. Just because there is more of an opportunity to do it with no serviceable big men on their respective teams, doesn't mean it should come easy. They still got to go out there and do it.

You could tell Rasheed to play the point, it doesn't mean he'll be effective doing it. Just because Marion and Wallace were asked to play out of position doesn't take away how impressive they've performed under those conditions.

[Darrin]

Okay, you have a point.