Rolling Stone: "The Worst Pres. In History?"

[Nbadan]

http://i.realone.com/assets/rn/img/7/8/6/1/9961687-9961690-slarge.jpg


The Worst President in History?


One of America's leading historians assesses George W. Bush George W. Bush's presidency appears headed for colossal historical disgrace. Barring a cataclysmic event on the order of the terrorist attacks of September 11th, after which the public might rally around the White House once again, there seems to be little the administration can do to avoid being ranked on the lowest tier of U.S. presidents. And that may be the best-case scenario. Many historians are now wondering whether Bush, in fact, will be remembered as the very worst president in all of American history.

..........

Calamitous presidents, faced with enormous difficulties -- Buchanan, Andrew Johnson, Hoover and now Bush -- have divided the nation, governed erratically and left the nation worse off. In each case, different factors contributed to the failure: disastrous domestic policies, foreign-policy blunders and military setbacks, executive misconduct, crises of credibility and public trust. Bush, however, is one of the rarities in presidential history: He has not only stumbled badly in every one of these key areas, he has also displayed a weakness common among the greatest presidential failures -- an unswerving adherence to a simplistic ideology that abjures deviation from dogma as heresy, thus preventing any pragmatic adjustment to changing realities. Repeatedly, Bush has undone himself, a failing revealed in each major area of presidential performance.

Rolling Stone (http://www.rollingstone.com/news/profile/story/9961300/the_worst_president_in_history?rnd=1145468541266&has-player=true&version=6.0.8.1024)

[valluco]

The worst in history? He is definatley the WORST president in my lifetime and papa Bush is in second place.

[mookie2001]

this just shows how liberal biweekly music magazines are

[Oh, Gee!!]

this just shows how liberal biweekly music magazines are

it is actually good news for republicans

[Extra Stout]

this just shows how liberal biweekly music magazines are
Rolling Stone actually is extremely left-wing when it opines on politics.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Rolling Stone actually is extremely left-wing when it opines on politics.

yet quite conservative when it comes to rock and/or roll. Go figure

[Extra Stout]

Bush is not a good President. But worst ever? Hardly.

Carter, Ford, Nixon, Hoover, Harding, Wilson, Grant, A. Johnson, and Buchanan were worse. I rank Bush 34th.

[Yonivore]

History will make this determination.

Just as we're finding out what a sorry-assed excuse for a President FDR was, future generations will learn how GWB freed two nations (probably more by the time this is over) and, in doing so, stopped a cancerous ideology that threatened the security of the entire planet...all while fostering an economic recovery and weathering the most partisan hack job of any Commander in Chief in history.

I'm tellin' ya, he's Rushmore bound.

[Oh, Gee!!]

History will make this determination.

Just as we're finding out what a sorry-assed excuse for a President FDR was, future generations will learn how GWB freed two nations (probably more by the time this is over) and, in doing so, stopped a cancerous ideology that threatened the security of the entire planet...all while fostering an economic recovery and weathering the most partisan hack job of any Commander in Chief in history.

I'm tellin' ya, he's Rushmore bound.


wishful think redux

[Mr. Peabody]

History will make this determination.

....

future generations will learn how GWB freed two nations (probably more by the time this is over) and, in doing so, stopped a cancerous ideology that threatened the security of the entire planet...all while fostering an economic recovery and weathering the most partisan hack job of any Commander in Chief in history.

I'm tellin' ya, he's Rushmore bound.

I guess it all depends on the story-teller, doesn't it?

[boutons_]

The US Embasssy just got blown up in Kabul, in "dubya liberated" Afghanistan.

The bogus Repug Iraq war is an unqualified disaster, outside of the WHIG and the generals sucking off Rummy for brownie/career points.

No country liberated, the Muslim radicals are more inflamed and supported than ever.

The Federal govt spent into historic debts by tax cuts for the rich + corps the interest which, never mind the capital, will cripple federal govt for decades.

"you're doing a heckuva job, shrubbie"

[xrayzebra]

yet quite conservative when it comes to rock and/or roll. Go figure

Who really cares what they think about anything? :lol

[mookie2001]

The US Embasssy just got blown up in Kabul, in "dubya liberated" Afghanistan.

The bogus Repug Iraq war is an unqualified disaster, outside of the WHIG and the generals sucking off Rummy for brownie/career points.


No country liberated, the Muslim radicals are more inflamed and supported than ever.

The Federal govt spent into historic debts by tax cuts for the rich + corps the interest which, never mind the capital, will cripple federal govt for decades.

"you're doing a heckuva job, shrubbie"

^listen to this dude Rufus
he knows what hes talking about

[Vashner]

So a liberal rag cuts down Bush...

What's fucking new about this??

[Yonivore]

Okay, does anyone remember this Sean Wilentz? He's the Princeton historian who made his last national appearance in November 2000, when he organized something called the Emergency Committee of Concerned Citizens 2000, which spent more than $125,000 buying ads in the New York Times urging a "revote" in heavily Democratic Palm Beach County, Fla., in the hope of installing Al Gore in the White House.

As it turned out, several of the "signatories" of the ad said that they never saw the final text and that they disagreed with it. And of course, the "revote" idea was preposterous. No one, not even the Florida Supreme Court, considered it seriously.

So in the current issue of a prestigious academic journal, Wilentz, described by the journal as "one of America's leading historians," takes the measure of President Bush. According to the Drudge Report, Wilentz's article declares that "George W. Bush's presidency appears headed for colossal historical disgrace." The journal's cover carries the blurb "The Worst President in History?" and has a caricature of the president sitting in a corner wearing a dunce cap.

Oh wait a second. Rolling Stone isn't exactly an academic journal, is it? Wilentz, however, is a historian, and he has strong ideas about historians weighing in on current politics, as he explains on Princeton's Web site (http://his.princeton.edu/people/e55/sean_wilentz_intervi.html):


I do think that historians must always be careful that their history writing doesn't become infected by their politics. The minute you start with a political idea and try to find a version of history that affirms it, you're a bad historian. A good propagandist, maybe, but a lousy historian.
Now, one might argue that speculation about where the Bush presidency "appears headed" isn't history writing at all, and thus it is a completely extracurricular activity that has no bearing on Wilentz's reputation as a historian. But the magazine is trading on that reputation to peddle his piece of partisan punditry.

One would think that professional pride would restrain Wilentz from participating in such an exercise. But perhaps the academy is so politicized these days that such foolishness will only end up enhancing his reputation among his colleagues.

[xrayzebra]

^listen to this dude Rufus
he knows what hes talking about


I'm listening.......I'm listening. What did he say that was different from
all his other postings. Have I missed something.

[Vashner]

Generals are not in charge. Civilians are dumbass. Go back and get a GED.

[JoeChalupa]

I'm tellin' ya, he's Rushmore bound.

Just 'cause he's dumb as a rock doesn't mean he belongs on Rushmore.

[Sec24Row7]

Bush went to Yale Chalupa.

This is not the same thing as "Jail" with a spanish accent.

[boutons_]

"went to Yale"

He wasn't a "merit" acceptee at Yale or Harvard, he was a legacy student (family history), aka "affirmative action"

[JoeChalupa]

Bush went to Yale Chalupa.

This is not the same thing as "Jail" with a spanish accent.

Brahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!! :lmao Whoooooooo!!!! Yeeeehhaaaawww!!

[Ocotillo]

Just 'cause he's dumb as a rock doesn't mean he belongs on Rushmore.
:lol :lol :lol :lol

[gameFACE]

Of course he'll be at Rushmore. They need someone to run concession.

[Soundbyte]

Bush and First Lady (http://drewmike.file-place.com/1/bushes.mp3)

[DarkReign]

Worst ever? I have absolutely no-fucking-idea.

Worst in my lifetime? No-fucking doubt.

Liberated countries....youre such a jackass...how liberated are they going to be when America finally pulls out? It will be a Civil War the likes of which the world has never seen (new killing technologies for the heathens to wipe themselves from the world more efficiently).

Ever seen.

Blood. Body parts. Be-headings. Kidnappings. Total and utter genocide. Daily.

That is the future of Iraq and Afghanistan. You dont need to be a geo-sociologist to see that.

Fucking book it, man. Book it. Sounds reeeeeeeal liberated and awfully Democratic to me.

My God, when in our puny, insignificant lives will be FINALLY agree that EVERY leader of people SHALL BE scrutinized and questioned EVERY day of EVERY year for as long as they hold court?

This blind loyalty by neo-cons is fucking scary. You are all so easily led and unabashed in your cult-like worship!

Dont you realize some of your stances and opinions and adamant defense of even the most obvious abuses of power, when viewed objectively, could be more likened to a cult than a political party?

But I am sure you dont care. Youre a drone. A fucking spoke in a giant wheel. You belong. Youre accepted. You have other sheeple like yourself to espouse concurrence and approval. Youre content in the knowledge that your blind loyalty is what is asked and you shall give it without question.

Youre a danger. Democrat / Republican / Green Party or otherwise. The herd being led by a Sheppard.

You people make any free-thinking individual disgusted in humanity. No voice, no thought, just more rhetoric readily prepared by (gasp*) people like yourselves.

Im not one for conspiracies, but this is ridiculously coincidental. You make me ill with fear of November. More like you will come and reproduce to create even more sheep waiting for instruction from “what-the-fuck-ever-party/church/ideology” seems to align most closely with your narrow view of the world where violence is an answer and questions are unpatriotic.
Im a pretty level-headed person (if I do say so myself). I want to wipe these fuckers off the face of the earth as much as anyone else.

But that DOES NOT mean I support Bush. Conversely, if someone doesn’t agree with me on the whole “extinction of the middle east”, I dont immediately start attacking them as liberals or Clinton-ites.

The two are NOT linked…in any way shape or form. Some people, unlike you neo-cons, take issues as they come, one at a time.

Amazing. Simply amazing. The worst part?

You may very well be setting in motion the demise of this country, the greatest country to ever exist, by refusing to question ALL those men in power.

Sheeple are beginning to outnumber Normals. I fear this, but I find great interest in the direction you sheeple choose for us. At least I will be around to see the demise and maybe even die defending my position.

I long for that day. The day when there is Us and there is Them. May the best man win.

[valluco]

You may very well be setting in motion the demise of this country, the greatest country to ever exist, by refusing to question ALL those men in power.
Fucking scary isn't it?

[Vashner]

It's the same people that hated Bush before 2000.. they still and forever will.

If there house turned into a gold palace and Bush hand delivered it they would still hate his guts.

There is NOTHING new... same Bush bashing shit.. day after day after day.

Of course some liberal nutless fuckwads that work for Time are going to call him the worst. It's there best fantasy for things to go wrong.

[RandomGuy]

Bush is not a good President. But worst ever? Hardly.

Carter, Ford, Nixon, Hoover, Harding, Wilson, Grant, A. Johnson, and Buchanan were worse. I rank Bush 34th.

Far from being the conservative he said he was, Bush has blazed a radical new path as the first American president in history who is outwardly hostile to science -- dedicated, as a distinguished, bipartisan panel of educators and scientists (including forty-nine Nobel laureates) has declared, to "the distortion of scientific knowledge for partisan political ends."

[RandomGuy]

It's the same people that hated Bush before 2000.. they still and forever will.

If there house turned into a gold palace and Bush hand delivered it they would still hate his guts.

There is NOTHING new... same Bush bashing shit.. day after day after day.

Of course some liberal nutless fuckwads that work for Time are going to call him the worst. It's there best fantasy for things to go wrong.

Virtually every presidential administration dating back to George Washington's has faced charges of misconduct and threats of impeachment against the president or his civil officers. The alleged offenses have usually involved matters of personal misbehavior and corruption, notably the payoff scandals that plagued Cabinet officials who served presidents Harding and Ulysses S. Grant. But the charges have also included alleged usurpation of power by the president and serious criminal conduct that threatens constitutional government and the rule of law -- most notoriously, the charges that led to the impeachments of Andrew Johnson and Bill Clinton, and to Richard Nixon's resignation.

[RandomGuy]

By contrast, the most scandal-ridden administration in the modern era, apart from Nixon's, was Ronald Reagan's, now widely remembered through a haze of nostalgia as a paragon of virtue. A total of twenty-nine Reagan officials, including White House national security adviser Robert McFarlane and deputy chief of staff Michael Deaver, were convicted on charges stemming from the Iran-Contra affair, illegal lobbying and a looting scandal inside the Department of Housing and Urban Development. Three Cabinet officers -- HUD Secretary Samuel Pierce, Attorney General Edwin Meese and Secretary of Defense Caspar Weinberger -- left their posts under clouds of scandal. In contrast, not a single official in the Clinton administration was even indicted over his or her White House duties, despite repeated high-profile investigations and a successful, highly partisan impeachment drive.

[RandomGuy]

Bush went to Yale Chalupa.

This is not the same thing as "Jail" with a spanish accent.

Bush officials have censored and suppressed research findings they don't like by the Environmental Protection Agency, the Fish and Wildlife Service and the Department of Agriculture. Far from being the conservative he said he was, Bush has blazed a radical new path as the first American president in history who is outwardly hostile to science -- dedicated, as a distinguished, bipartisan panel of educators and scientists (including forty-nine Nobel laureates) has declared, to "the distortion of scientific knowledge for partisan political ends."

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Other than random guy--Has anyone actually read this article? Agree with it or not it is phenomenal in how thorough it is. He goes through every policy Bush has and thoroughly documents their successes and failures.

Even for a Bush supporter I would recomend reading this, I mean at the very least you will see the opposing line of view. Im not sure how Vashner (my new synonym for below clinical competence) you all are, as many do not wish to even think about civil discourse and this idea of other views seems sacrilidge, but I wouldnt mind reading your opinions even if they just end up as ad hominen attacks.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Worst ever? I have absolutely no-fucking-idea.

Worst in my lifetime? No-fucking doubt.

Liberated countries....youre such a jackass...how liberated are they going to be when America finally pulls out? It will be a Civil War the likes of which the world has never seen (new killing technologies for the heathens to wipe themselves from the world more efficiently).

Ever seen.

Blood. Body parts. Be-headings. Kidnappings. Total and utter genocide. Daily.

That is the future of Iraq and Afghanistan. You dont need to be a geo-sociologist to see that.

Fucking book it, man. Book it. Sounds reeeeeeeal liberated and awfully Democratic to me.

My God, when in our puny, insignificant lives will be FINALLY agree that EVERY leader of people SHALL BE scrutinized and questioned EVERY day of EVERY year for as long as they hold court?

This blind loyalty by neo-cons is fucking scary. You are all so easily led and unabashed in your cult-like worship!

Dont you realize some of your stances and opinions and adamant defense of even the most obvious abuses of power, when viewed objectively, could be more likened to a cult than a political party?

But I am sure you dont care. Youre a drone. A fucking spoke in a giant wheel. You belong. Youre accepted. You have other sheeple like yourself to espouse concurrence and approval. Youre content in the knowledge that your blind loyalty is what is asked and you shall give it without question.

Youre a danger. Democrat / Republican / Green Party or otherwise. The herd being led by a Sheppard.

You people make any free-thinking individual disgusted in humanity. No voice, no thought, just more rhetoric readily prepared by (gasp*) people like yourselves.

Im not one for conspiracies, but this is ridiculously coincidental. You make me ill with fear of November. More like you will come and reproduce to create even more sheep waiting for instruction from “what-the-fuck-ever-party/church/ideology” seems to align most closely with your narrow view of the world where violence is an answer and questions are unpatriotic.
Im a pretty level-headed person (if I do say so myself). I want to wipe these fuckers off the face of the earth as much as anyone else.

But that DOES NOT mean I support Bush. Conversely, if someone doesn’t agree with me on the whole “extinction of the middle east”, I dont immediately start attacking them as liberals or Clinton-ites.

The two are NOT linked…in any way shape or form. Some people, unlike you neo-cons, take issues as they come, one at a time.

Amazing. Simply amazing. The worst part?

You may very well be setting in motion the demise of this country, the greatest country to ever exist, by refusing to question ALL those men in power.

Sheeple are beginning to outnumber Normals. I fear this, but I find great interest in the direction you sheeple choose for us. At least I will be around to see the demise and maybe even die defending my position.

I long for that day. The day when there is Us and there is Them. May the best man win.



This post has my vote for Ownage of the Month; I agree 99%.
Sheeple...I like that.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

This article is decent.


The monster deficits, caused by increased federal spending combined with the reduction of revenue resulting from the tax cuts, have also placed Bush's administration in a historic class of its own with respect to government borrowing. According to the Treasury Department, the forty-two presidents who held office between 1789 and 2000 borrowed a combined total of $1.01 trillion from foreign governments and financial institutions. But between 2001 and 2005 alone, the Bush White House borrowed $1.05 trillion, more than all of the previous presidencies combined. Having inherited the largest federal surplus in American history in 2001, he has turned it into the largest deficit ever -- with an even higher deficit, $423 billion, forecast for fiscal year 2006. Yet Bush -- sounding much like Herbert Hoover in 1930 predicting that "prosperity is just around the corner" -- insists that he will cut federal deficits in half by 2009, and that the best way to guarantee this would be to make permanent his tax cuts, which helped cause the deficit in the first place!

I find it humorous that when we take the facts out of this snip of the article, and combine that with DarkReign's view of the neocon public, we get an accurate, concrete idea of just how much those neocons really ARE sheeple.

[Trainwreck2100]

Def. not the worst in history, but he's up there.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Yeah at least he didn't oversee the slaughtering of an entire race of people in the united states mainland.

[Guru of Nothing]

Even for a Bush supporter I would recomend reading this, I mean at the very least you will see the opposing line of view. Im not sure how Vashner (my new synonym for below clinical competence) you all are, as many do not wish to even think about civil discourse and this idea of other views seems sacrilidge, but I wouldnt mind reading your opinions even if they just end up as ad hominen attacks.

You are (ALLEGEDLY) an unabashed, Democratic apologist - who happens to be an attorney.... Yes??

Does your written word determine the fate of individuals?

Your use of atrocious grammar is disheartening, to say the least.

You sir, are probably part of the PROBLEM, whether you recognize it or not.

I reserve the right to be wrong.

[gtownspur]

Worst ever? I have absolutely no-fucking-idea.

Worst in my lifetime? No-fucking doubt.

Liberated countries....youre such a jackass...how liberated are they going to be when America finally pulls out? It will be a Civil War the likes of which the world has never seen (new killing technologies for the heathens to wipe themselves from the world more efficiently).

Ever seen.

Blood. Body parts. Be-headings. Kidnappings. Total and utter genocide. Daily.

That is the future of Iraq and Afghanistan. You dont need to be a geo-sociologist to see that.

Fucking book it, man. Book it. Sounds reeeeeeeal liberated and awfully Democratic to me.

My God, when in our puny, insignificant lives will be FINALLY agree that EVERY leader of people SHALL BE scrutinized and questioned EVERY day of EVERY year for as long as they hold court?

This blind loyalty by neo-cons is fucking scary. You are all so easily led and unabashed in your cult-like worship!

Dont you realize some of your stances and opinions and adamant defense of even the most obvious abuses of power, when viewed objectively, could be more likened to a cult than a political party?

But I am sure you dont care. Youre a drone. A fucking spoke in a giant wheel. You belong. Youre accepted. You have other sheeple like yourself to espouse concurrence and approval. Youre content in the knowledge that your blind loyalty is what is asked and you shall give it without question.

Youre a danger. Democrat / Republican / Green Party or otherwise. The herd being led by a Sheppard.

You people make any free-thinking individual disgusted in humanity. No voice, no thought, just more rhetoric readily prepared by (gasp*) people like yourselves.

Im not one for conspiracies, but this is ridiculously coincidental. You make me ill with fear of November. More like you will come and reproduce to create even more sheep waiting for instruction from “what-the-fuck-ever-party/church/ideology” seems to align most closely with your narrow view of the world where violence is an answer and questions are unpatriotic.
Im a pretty level-headed person (if I do say so myself). I want to wipe these fuckers off the face of the earth as much as anyone else.

But that DOES NOT mean I support Bush. Conversely, if someone doesn’t agree with me on the whole “extinction of the middle east”, I dont immediately start attacking them as liberals or Clinton-ites.

The two are NOT linked…in any way shape or form. Some people, unlike you neo-cons, take issues as they come, one at a time.

Amazing. Simply amazing. The worst part?

You may very well be setting in motion the demise of this country, the greatest country to ever exist, by refusing to question ALL those men in power.

Sheeple are beginning to outnumber Normals. I fear this, but I find great interest in the direction you sheeple choose for us. At least I will be around to see the demise and maybe even die defending my position.

I long for that day. The day when there is Us and there is Them. May the best man win.


Lay aside the fact that you're solution of wiping out the MidEAst would be far more costly and disastorous for america, than any measley Republican NEocon blunder, okay. Focus on the fact that you're entire post is utter and complete caca.

ANd before you go on lampooning me and say that i'm a neocon, and that i have a narrow view of the world, and i'm part of the right wing conspiracy advocating the torture of anyone who supports the "sponge bob square pants gay agenda", I'm gonna lay out why you are the sheep.

First of all, you're assumption that all conservatives defending Bush think the way they do because they like to feel accepted and fit in like a bunch of sheep is the exact opposite.

When was the last time a conservative went to the film theatre and was reinforced with positive images about the president, and was free from subtle attacks at his ideology?

When was the last time conservatives held a protest in college campuses sponsored by the student press and the faculty?

When was the last time you were at work and you noticed all the other conservatives huddled in masse agreeing together..."Wow bush is a great leader"... "The war IN IRaq is going splendid"?

WHere the fuck do you get the idea that all of the forum conservatives are united here, and have each others backs and we appear simultaneously together to attack a free thinker like you.

Its actually the exact opposite. It's the liberals on this board who are quick to defend each other and take a bullet for each other. It's the liberals, followed by spineless conservatives who feel the need to get accepted, who harp on people like xrayzebra and vashner and anyone else.

When was the last time you went downtown and you had a conservative just shout at you that you are unpatriotic.?

Infact when has anyone on this board called you unpatriotic? I want names.
But i guess it's all bs, unless there is this fictitional conservative boogey man labeling you anti-american all across this forum, and he happened to be on everyone elses ignore list. :rolleyes


but lets get back to the meat of you're post.

THere has been fighting between sunni and shiite since the beggining of the IRaq war. NOw that battle fatalities for troops have declined, the media has now focused on the fatalities of the iraqis and have now told you that there is a civil war where there has been none, and nothing much has changed. The same small extremist from both sides have been at it since the begining, but the people and the govt are still cooperating.

And what about you're assertion that afghanistan is going to hell in a handbasket?

Where are the afghani news stories of their civil war,.......THat's right. There's none.

ANd it is you who has drunken the koolaid from the democrats on this forum and from whatever you have heard. If you were actually a free thinker, you would have dismissed the whole civil war template because nothing has changed or escalated much.

[RandomGuy]

THere has been fighting between sunni and shiite since the beggining of the IRaq war. NOw that battle fatalities for troops have declined, the media has now focused on the fatalities of the iraqis and have now told you that there is a civil war where there has been none, and nothing much has changed. The same small extremist from both sides have been at it since the begining, but the people and the govt are still cooperating.



http://icasualties.org/oif_a/CasualtyTrends_files/image001.gif


I don't see it much changed from the beginning of the whole conflict.

This graph also completely ignores the number of iraqi security/army forces being killed, and that number is MUCH MUCH higher.

[RandomGuy]

and if nothing much has changed in Iraq, reports of mass executions of groups of Iraqis must have been around since the fall of Baghdad, yes?

[Sec24Row7]

We took over a population of 50 million people and have lost less than 2,000 soldiers.

What the fuck is good enough for you people?

In WWII we lost more people than that taking over 300 acre islands in the Pacific.

The Soviets Lost that many people LOSING a CITY BLOCK in Stalingrad.

The Union lost that many people defending a HEDGE ROW in the Civil War.

Thank God you didn't have a voice THEN.

[xrayzebra]

^^We also, along with the British, killed over 50,000 in one nights raid in Hamburg
Germany. Most of them civilians. It comes as a great surprise to many on this
board that war is Hell. And it is all about killing people and breaking things. You
don't win wars by saying "pretty please, may I".

[boutons_]

"took over a population of 50 million people"

Iraq ain't taken over. There is no public security. There are Bagdad neighborhoods that aren't even pacified. The US military has been/is too small to pacify the entire country and seal the borders. Reconstruction funds have been seriously diverted into defense of the reconstructors and paying protection/extortion rackets.

Iraq is moving faster in the direction of civil war and religious/ethnic militias than it is in the direction of peace and democracy. "took over"? GMAFB

As in the Gulf War, the Iraqi Army didn't even fight in the phony Repug war. The US has lost more lives and bodies to the unpredicted, unplanned-for, and unpacified insurgency than to the Iraqi Army. heckuva job, rummy.

So losing "only" 2000+ (not 2000-) lives in a phony war with NO POSITIVE RESULTS for the USA is your point? Comparing the shitty no-show Iraq Army to other enemy armies is major wars is all you have left?

Fucking asshole joker.

[xrayzebra]

^^It's all Harry Reid's fault along with Pelosi. I heard it through the grapevine.
Bush wanted to do more, but they were against it.

(Hey it works for dimm-o-craps, so I am going to try it)

[Sec24Row7]

I could care less what you think boutons. You and dan have made it blatantly obvious that you are going to feel the way you feel in spite of facts.

That is what makes you tick.

You are ruled by emotion rather than logic.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

You are (ALLEGEDLY) an unabashed, Democratic apologist - who happens to be an attorney.... Yes??

Does your written word determine the fate of individuals?

Your use of atrocious grammar is disheartening, to say the least.

You sir, are probably part of the PROBLEM, whether you recognize it or not.

I reserve the right to be wrong.

If you chose to think that, that's fine by me. Although I dont think I have ever claimed to be a democratic apologist--I’m a liberal not necessarily a democrat. And if my grammar is really that bad (slight hyperbole no?) I'm sorry for offending your sensibilities, It just so happens I seldom edit my posts, a fault of mine no doubt, but this has more to do with time restraints than apathy. I hardly think I compete with Ducks in this regard. (Now spelling-- Admittedly is not a strong suit, a wonder that I ever got on at all without word processors.)

Does my written word do anything? As far as the historical perspective in which an individual is viewed, no, I only have a BA in history. That doesn't mean I cant find this article to be good, and it doesn't mean I can't wish the neo-cons on this forum to have to defend the ideals they so frequently espouse, now does it?

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I could care less what you think boutons. You and dan have made it blatantly obvious that you are going to feel the way you feel in spite of facts.

That is what makes you tick.

You are ruled by emotion rather than logic.


Oh come now, you can’t be serious. We liberals are the ones ignoring the facts? Chasing some ideologically bankrupt philosophy? We're the ones that can't face reality, despite the constant reminders that we're wrong? We're the ones that the entire planet views as war mongering idiots right? Liberals like dan and boutons are the ones that rely on ad hominen attack supplemented with large doses of every other logical fallacies know to man, as their only articulation of a defense as to their policy beliefs correct?

Name one policy Bush has ever had that isn't going to fuck over this country royally.... please.

[Sec24Row7]

Oh come now, you can’t be serious. We liberals are the ones ignoring the facts? Chasing some ideologically bankrupt philosophy? We're the ones that can't face reality, despite the constant reminders that we're wrong? We're the ones that the entire planet views as war mongering idiots right? Liberals like dan and boutons are the ones that rely on ad hominen attack supplemented with large doses of every other logical fallacies know to man, as their only articulation of a defense as to their policy beliefs correct?

Name one policy Bush has ever had that isn't going to fuck over this country royally.... please.


I think you just made my point.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Sec24, this president has the worst approval rating since Nixon, he has 2 and a half years left and no policies left on the docket with any realistic chance at success.

Social Security?
Tax Cuts huh? (So glad I could leave such a mess for my grandchildren to clean up)
2 more wars? With what military? We are the definition of overstretched right now.

I mean all that is left for this president to hope for is John Paul Stevens passing away.

There was just a whole fucking article on how President Bush may be the worst president in history. A majority of the posters on this thread have implied he may have been the worst president of their life times.

I think it is more than reasonable to question his policies, has there been one that hasn’t fucked us over?

You name an area from the environment to the economy to foreign policy... go on... make my day you old vashner.

[valluco]

Sec24, this president has the worst approval rating since Nixon, he has 2 and a half years left and no policies left on the docket with any realistic chance at success.

Social Security?
Tax Cuts huh? (So glad I could leave such a mess for my grandchildren to clean up)
2 more wars? With what military? We are the definition of overstretched right now.

I mean all that is left for this president to hope for is John Paul Stevens passing away.

There was just a whole fucking article on how President Bush may be the worst president in history. A majority of the posters on this thread have implied he may have been the worst president of their life times.

I think it is more than reasonable to question his policies, has there been one that hasn’t fucked us over?

You name an area from the environment to the economy to foreign policy... go on... make my day you old vashner.
a-fucking-men.

[Trainwreck2100]

Hey, we are kicking iraqi terrorist ass, but Bush still sucks.

[valluco]

http://i11.photobucket.com/albums/a185/valluco/thefrycook.gif

[DarkReign]

Lay aside the fact that you're solution of wiping out the MidEAst would be far more costly and disastorous for america, than any measley Republican NEocon blunder, okay. Focus on the fact that you're entire post is utter and complete caca.

[snip]

ANd it is you who has drunken the koolaid from the democrats on this forum and from whatever you have heard. If you were actually a free thinker, you would have dismissed the whole civil war template because nothing has changed or escalated much.

First off, and I know for a fact you could care less about my opinion, congratulations on at least toning down the usual shit you USED to spew. Youre still opinionated, but at least its constructive in a gtown sort of way.

Onwards and upwards...

I think you labeled me a liberal somewhere in there by "...[drinking] the koolaid from the democrats".

Far from it. Maybe its me, maybe its my opinions on certain issues. Hell, I dont know what would make someone jump to conclusions like that. Doesnt make any sense to me. Fuck it.

My disgust stems not from my political stance (whether it be Demo, Repub, etc). It stems from my EYES. My agreement or disagreement with the actions of my country and its leaders, on a case-by-case basis.

I dont frequent CNN.com or FoxNews.com....I could get more unbiased opinions on the news from a hobo with a fifth of MD 20/20 than those two slanted, shabby piece o shit organizations.

Secondly, I dont buy all the boutons and Dan's of the world either. Both sides of any argument are just as guilty as the other. They cite some leftist news outlet, only to be counter-pointed by some rightist outlet.

Sometimes, actual constructive discourse happens when (gasp*) they have to think for themselves on an issue and dont have X number of opinionated articles to somehow further their agendas.

Back on topic,

No, I dont have to read accounts of a strategy I never agreed with in the first place. I dont have to corroborate my views with other like-minded individuals to feel assured that I fall on the “right” side of the issue.

What I think is never predicated on what other people think. But, sometimes my opinion happens to fall in line with the Demo / Repub agenda. Not by design or intention, but by pure coincidence.

I have hated the Middle East looooooong before 9/11. I knew that shit-stain of the world would sooner or later become a worldwide conflict.

I just didn’t agree with our reason for entry. I could list so many different ways we could have entered the region with a full-out assault of Biblical proportions if we had only been patient. Sweeping changes, with the backing of the Western world and some of the East, if only we hadn’t entered on such flimsy evidence and trumped up charges.

This Lone Ranger attitude of this administration bothers the living hell out of me. This administration’s arrogance and aloof mannerisms in the face of the people that question them makes me fucking sick. I couldn’t care fucking less if they were Demo / Repub / Green / etc. They answer to the people, yet they regularly spit on the faces of Congress, all with a smile and a snicker.

I cant stand arrogance, even from Americans. Yes, on this forum (and American forum) I would yell to the high heavens that America is the greatest country the world has ever seen. Any members here who are not American would most likely understand the sentiment because they chose to register on an American forum.

But I would tone that shit down BIG TIME if I were on an Argentine forum or a Mexican forum. Unless I wanted to be troll, which I don’t think I could ever do.

Anyway, Iraq is a fucking mess. Don’t mince words or play Spin Room with me. It’s a fucking disaster. Looking at it from a numbers standpoint, sure it looks great! Only 2,000 soldiers killed with an entire country out from under the foot of a gruesome dictator.

But there is a vacuum of power in that country. A country populated with a people who value their religion FAAAAAAR above logic and reason. America will setup a democracy as best as we possibly can (about 2 more years, then we will pull a majority of our men out). That government will last on its own…shit, my best guess….maybe a year (if that). Then one of a thousand of religious morons these idiots pin their hopes to, who promises prosperity for his people under the guidance of Ala, with a promise of revenge against [insert person/people to blame for their situation here] will lead a coup and overthrow everything we tried to accomplish overnight. Maybe not even a coup…has it ever been considered that the Iraqi people may democratically elect a known terrorist group much like Palestine did?

As long as Ala’s name is attached to an agenda / political, those people line up in droves.

Its disgusting. Same thing in Afghanistan. Everyone heard the story of that dude that converted to Christianity as was going to be killed for his faith. That’s a fucking law there. This is the kind of “people” we are trying to change. To me, its impossible to change them. They don’t want to be! Its that simple. Lead a horse to water and all that shit.

So maybe I overreacted with the civil war bit. Youre right, its hard to tell one way or the other. With regime change, anything is possible. But don’t say these people wouldn’t elect a known enemy in a heartbeat if their priests (whatever they call em) told them to.

This is getting too long. Sorry about that. Point is, I am not blinded by any side. The “sides” in this country are just machinations of feeble minds unwilling to think for themselves. Thinking for yourself carries a large risk…sometimes, youre alone and wrong. But I can admit when I am wrong. I do almost everyday of my life.

I have always said, and I cant express how much I find it to be a truth.

History will remember Bush as a horrible domestic president. Nothing he can do will change that.

Where he has a chance to be revered is this Middle East situation. I don’t believe he can control what happens, but the events he has unilaterally set into motion can go two ways.

a) these people wake up and think for themselves and Democracy reigns supreme. This would be….world-changing to say the very least. For all his faults, Bush would at least have this GREAT accomplishment. He changed the mindset of the Middle East. That would be….HUGE. Absolutely amazing and worthy of all the praise that could be heaped. Ends always justify the means, imo.

b) this entire agenda is a complete failure, furthering the hatred to record levels of America in the region spawning a whole new generation of people that hate with a fervency not seen since the Russians went back to Berlin. A total and utter failure that would taint his Presidency as one of, if not the worst, in the history of this country.

That’s the way I see it. Blind loyalty is reserved for the military and ONLY the military. Everything else in life should be questioned at ALL times, especially leadership. Yes, I get the impression Vashner, Yoni and yourself are all very lockstep in everything this administration does, no matter how seedy or unconstitutional. You see it as necessary, I will never see it that way.

But the ends always justify the means. Maybe youre right. I have my serious doubts. Time will tell. I think a whole lot sooner than anyone cares to admit.

[JoeChalupa]

^RACK

[xrayzebra]

Sec24, this president has the worst approval rating since Nixon, he has 2 and a half years left and no policies left on the docket with any realistic chance at success.

Really, no policies. I don't know what one has to do with the other,
but, his approval ratings are not that bad when considered against all other
Presidents. As for policies, he has plenty, and expounds on them almost
only a daily basis. One near and dear to most liberals heart, AMENESTY
for illegals.

Social Security?
Tax Cuts huh? (So glad I could leave such a mess for my grandchildren to clean up)
2 more wars? With what military? We are the definition of overstretched right now.

Once again I don't know what one subject has to do with the other,
but, he has been harping on social security from the beginning. But the
members of congress are in no way going to touch it with a ten foot poll.



I mean all that is left for this president to hope for is John Paul Stevens passing away.
hmmm, have no idea what in the world you mean by this statement

There was just a whole fucking article on how President Bush may be the worst president in history. A majority of the posters on this thread have implied he may have been the worst president of their life times.

This again, is you estimate of things, I don't agree with it. I think,
considering all things he has done one heck of a job. I would love to
see you function under as much pressure, in your job. If you have one.

I think it is more than reasonable to question his policies, has there been one that hasn’t fucked us over?

Question all you like, one of the freedoms of this country, but doesn't
make you right or correct. I agree with some of his policies, some I don't.
But again that is my privilege. I say again, he has done a very good
job, in most cases.

You name an area from the environment to the economy to foreign policy... go on... make my day you old vashner.

Your sorry butt is still functioning, on all cylinders, because he
has done what he has done in all areas. I would like to see some of your
"so called" environmentalist start walking to wherever they are going
on a daily basis to prove how sincere they are. But never mind, they
have good intentions.

[xrayzebra]

^RACK

Gee joe, you really agree with all he said? I doubt it.

[RandomGuy]

Your sorry butt is still functioning, on all cylinders, because he
has done what he has done in all areas. I would like to see some of your
"so called" environmentalist start walking to wherever they are going
on a daily basis to prove how sincere they are. But never mind, they
have good intentions.

So because environmentalists might be hypocrites, Bush is a good president?


:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

Har, let me try some similar logic.

Because some cars might be painted green, I can run out in front of a semi-truck and not get hurt.

Both your statement and the above sentence have the same (il)logical structure.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Random, you dont expect him to make a logical argument now do you

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I sure as hell don't.
Paint chips. As a kid.


Dark Reign is regulating this forum now, lol.

[gtownspur]

I think Dark Reign can go on with out your cheerleading endorsement.

[ChumpDumper]

There is no such thing as a props mod.

[xrayzebra]

So because environmentalists might be hypocrites, Bush is a good president?


:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

Har, let me try some similar logic.

Because some cars might be painted green, I can run out in front of a semi-truck and not get hurt.

Both your statement and the above sentence have the same (il)logical structure.

Yep, you got it okay. And it was/is logical. Your statement may need
a little work however. But that is normal for folks from your side. I have
no idea where you get your sense of logic. Bush has done a very
good job of taking care of all of us, including your sorry butt. :lol

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Xray, did you teach a class on logical fallacies?

[boutons_]

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/tt/2006/tt060421.gif

[greyforest]

the US media is absolutely atrocious. there are no unbiased sources anywhere here.

for instance:

More than half the country now considers Bush dishonest and untrustworthy, and a decisive plurality consider him less trustworthy than his predecessor, Bill Clinton -- a figure still attacked by conservative zealots as "Slick Willie."

i like the use of statistical evidence presented in the rolling stone article, but they discredit themselves with the use of bias.


i suggest watching/reading from the bbc instead. politics is sheathed in so much double talk that its almost impossible to tell what the fuck is going on...bbc is the best ive found that just delivers facts, and no agenda.

[RandomGuy]

We took over a population of 50 million people and have lost less than 2,000 soldiers.

What the fuck is good enough for you people?

In WWII we lost more people than that taking over 300 acre islands in the Pacific.

The Soviets Lost that many people LOSING a CITY BLOCK in Stalingrad.

The Union lost that many people defending a HEDGE ROW in the Civil War.

Thank God you didn't have a voice THEN.

I am not saying that casualties should have been higher, dipweed.

I AM saying that Iraq is far from the nirvana that the administration would have us believe, AND that claims that things are "getting better" would imply that the rolling average in the graph should go down and stay down.

I AM saying, and have always said, that even the 2000 number is higher than it should have been, had the post war planning been done by anyone halfway competant, instead of the political hacks that did the planning.

This adminstration has taken a page out of the Hoover administration: "prosperity is just around the corner". I was hollow bullshit then and it's hollow bullshit now.

[RandomGuy]

Yep, you got it okay. And it was/is logical. Your statement may need
a little work however. But that is normal for folks from your side. I have
no idea where you get your sense of logic. Bush has done a very
good job of taking care of all of us, including your sorry butt. :lol


Your statement didn't have any basis in logic or fact.

I really wish I could just beam a little bit of education into your brain, so that you could see that for yourself, but as it is, you are too lazy to try and improve your critical thinking skills at this late juncture of your life.

It is easier for you to think that *I* don't know what I am talking about than to actually (GASP) READ and learn something new. Lazy.

[DarkReign]

I really wish I could just beam a little bit of education into your brain, so that you could see that for yourself, but as it is, you are too lazy to try and improve your critical thinking skills at this late juncture of your life.

Sometimes, it just cant be put better than anyone else. Thus, the quoting feature.

[gtownspur]

Random didnt say anything profound. When the administration says all the good stuff about iraq, it's because his opponents are saying the extreme opposite. Bush only reacts.

[smeagol]

^^We also, along with the British, killed over 50,000 in one nights raid in Hamburg
Germany. Most of them civilians. It comes as a great surprise to many on this
board that war is Hell. And it is all about killing people and breaking things. You
don't win wars by saying "pretty please, may I".
Please stop comparing this war to WWII. It makes you look ignorant.

[smeagol]

DR, I have a new level of respect for you. A pitty we cannot see eye to eye on religion. :spin


I think you labeled me a liberal somewhere in there by

Don't worry, he has said the same to me. Whoever does not agree with gtown's narrow view of life, is a liberal.

And although I'm pro-business, pro-life, against legalizing hard drugs, etc, he has also labeled me a liberal.

[xrayzebra]

Xray, did you teach a class on logical fallacies?

No, but guess I may have to teach one on logical thinking on this forum. It is just really hard talking
to a bunch of pseudo intellects like you and others who have no idea of what is going on in
this world. But I shall continue to try.

[Extra Stout]

No, but guess I may have to teach one on logical thinking on this forum. It is just really hard talking
to a bunch of pseudo intellects like you and others who have no idea of what is going on in
this world. But I shall continue to try.

Warning: Retiree--knows it all and has plenty of time to tell you about it.

[boutons_]

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ta/2006/ta060423.gif


http://images.ucomics.com/comics/bs/2006/bs060421.gif

[DarkReign]

Random didnt say anything profound. When the administration says all the good stuff about iraq, it's because his opponents are saying the extreme opposite. Bush only reacts.

I do agree with you about one side REACTING to the other in this case.

I also understand the President would put his party in serious jeopardy this November if for some reason he (how to put this?)....backtracked a little on his adamant posturing on Iraq.

I never doubted GWB's resolve. He has that in spades (tell me I wasnt the only one who thought Gore would have looked like an idiot on 9/11). But his 'swagger' is his greatest asset and liability, a rare occurence.

His 'swagger' (and political clout and party majority) earned him the power to have Congress vote on entering Iraq based on (how to put this?)...circumstantial evidence.

His 'swagger' and grandstanding on the Iraq situation at that time has also more or less backed him into a corner on being rational about expectations and accomplishments.

Like I said, there are 2 very vague possible outcomes with a third outcome I dont find to be reasonable. Our unwavering occupation of Iraq, which cant happen if the Republican party wishes to carry seats in November and beyond. 2000 deaths isnt much, I can admit that. But the reality is that number will never go down, it will continue to grow, the public's view of the situation is only getting worse, there arent any forseeable goals to 'boost' popularity in believable timeframes (capture Sadaam, quell insurgency, etc). All of these things add up to problems for this Administration and even more resounding damage to the Republican Party's majority seats in Congress which the President has used to his advantage since he entered office.

If the Republican party loses its majority this November, I dont know if the President could execute any plan on any situation for the remainder of his term. He would be disarmed. He knows it, thus this psuedo-shuffling of his cabinet in the hopes of showing his willingness to change.

These Democrats are chomping at the bit for revenge. They want redemption for being stepped on and over for 6 years. If they get majority seats, every Bill, every action, every misconduct will be scrutinzed to the fullest extent of Congress' power.

Do I like that? Fuck no. It doesnt accomplish anything except some petty agenda of "I told ya so". One would think the federal government is above such things, but alas, it isnt.

Of course, Republicans could win November and everything stays to the status quo. I dont think that is going to happen, but I didnt think Bush won in 2002 either. So much for prognostication.

Either way, its still a serious problem for this country. I didnt even touch on domestic issues. If they lose a majority, every Democrat in both Houses will be in lock-step, can the Republicans say the same? Already some moderate conservatives are flip-flopping on whether to support or not. Heck, its no secret some Republicans dont even want the President on their campaign trail.

Time will tell as usual.

[xrayzebra]

I do agree with you about one side REACTING to the other in this case.

I also understand the President would put his party in serious jeopardy this November if for some reason he (how to put this?)....backtracked a little on his adamant posturing on Iraq.

Posturing? How is he posturing. He has been upfront with everyone
on what he hopes to accomplish. And has done much considering all the
obstacle that have been thrown in his path.

================================================== ======



I never doubted GWB's resolve. He has that in spades (tell me I wasnt the only one who thought Gore would have looked like an idiot on 9/11). But his 'swagger' is his greatest asset and liability, a rare occurence.

His 'swagger' (and political clout and party majority) earned him the power to have Congress vote on entering Iraq based on (how to put this?)...circumstantial evidence.

Once again, circumstantial evidence. Every nation on God's green earth,
and the opposition Democrats were saying Iraq had WMD. Only after the
fact did anyone start questioning that fact.
Swagger/resolve: are you confusing the two. Obstinate, may be a
better word. He obviously doesn't follow the polls much or he would
have made much different decisions to suit the public. Hell the news
media, to listen to them, have him incapable of putting on his shoes.
---------------------------------------------------------------------



His 'swagger' and grandstanding on the Iraq situation at that time has also more or less backed him into a corner on being rational about expectations and accomplishments.

Like I said, there are 2 very vague possible outcomes with a third outcome I dont find to be reasonable. Our unwavering occupation of Iraq, which cant happen if the Republican party wishes to carry seats in November and beyond. 2000 deaths isnt much, I can admit that. But the reality is that number will never go down, it will continue to grow, the public's view of the situation is only getting worse, there arent any forseeable goals to 'boost' popularity in believable timeframes (capture Sadaam, quell insurgency, etc). All of these things add up to problems for this Administration and even more resounding damage to the Republican Party's majority seats in Congress which the President has used to his advantage since he entered office.

I think the media has done themselves a disservice, that is also run down
the public's view of Congress. The latest figures on Bush are low but
what about Congress. 23 percent. Not very good. And the public's
view on media is very low also. Hell NYT has financial problems because
of their stupid stand on things.

================================================== =====



If the Republican party loses its majority this November, I dont know if the President could execute any plan on any situation for the remainder of his term. He would be disarmed. He knows it, thus this psuedo-shuffling of his cabinet in the hopes of showing his willingness to change.

His shuffling is the norm in any administration, he is not trying to fool
anyone about anything in my estimation. He has not even mentioned
a willingness to change. He has stated his agenda and stuck with it.

================================================== ======



These Democrats are chomping at the bit for revenge. They want redemption for being stepped on and over for 6 years. If they get majority seats, every Bill, every action, every misconduct will be scrutinzed to the fullest extent of Congress' power.

The dimm-o-craps have opposed Bush on everything, and I mean
everything. His policies, his appointments, his legislative proposals,
you name it and they have fought him on it. Not one thing have they
stood by him on. With one exception. They did vote on his invasion of
Iraq after 9/11 because they insisted he come back to Congress for their
approval and they wanted to be on record as supporting it.

================================================== =====



Do I like that? Fuck no. It doesnt accomplish anything except some petty agenda of "I told ya so". One would think the federal government is above such things, but alas, it isnt.

Of course, Republicans could win November and everything stays to the status quo. I dont think that is going to happen, but I didnt think Bush won in 2002 either. So much for prognostication.

Either way, its still a serious problem for this country. I didnt even touch on domestic issues. If they lose a majority, every Democrat in both Houses will be in lock-step, can the Republicans say the same? Already some moderate conservatives are flip-flopping on whether to support or not. Heck, its no secret some Republicans dont even want the President on their campaign trail.

Time will tell as usual.

I am like you in the sense, I have no idea on what is going to happen in
November. I suspect that everyone is going to be surprised. I see no
great support for the Democrats. I do see much distrust for all of
Government by many. I see all many crying for the blood of Bush, for
what reason I have yet to figure out, other than the fact the dimm-o-craps
lust for power. We are witnessing something I thought I would never
see. Members of our Government performing acts that would be
considered treason in former times.

[DarkReign]

Of course, Republicans could win November and everything stays to the status quo. I dont think that is going to happen, but I didnt think Bush won in 2002 either. So much for prognostication.

Heres a game...pick out the error in this sentence.

LOL

<---idiota

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Warning: Retiree--knows it all and has plenty of time to tell you about it.

You referring to me or xray? I’m not retired or claim to know it all, but judging by recent comments i suppose you have little respect for my posts so....