White teens accused of brutal racist attack

[MaNuMaNiAc]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/27/texas.attack.ap/index.html

SPRING, Texas (AP) -- Two white teenagers severely beat and sodomized a 16-year-old Hispanic boy who they believed had tried to kiss a 12-year-old white girl at a party, authorities said.

The attackers forced the boy out of the house party, beat him and sodomized him with a metal pipe, shouting epithets "associated with being Hispanic," said Lt. John Martin with the Harris County Sheriff's Department.

They then poured bleach over the boy, apparently to destroy DNA evidence and left him for dead, authorities said. He wasn't discovered until Sunday, a day after the attack.

The victim, who was not identified, suffered severe internal injuries and remained in critical condition Thursday.

Keith Robert Turner, 17, and David Henry Tuck, 18, are charged with aggravated sexual assault, investigators said.

Prosecutors are considering whether to attach hate-crime charges, but unless the victim dies, the possible penalty would be the same. If the boy dies and it is ruled a hate crime, the attackers could face the death penalty, authorities said.

The case has been turned over to the homicide division, Martin said, normal procedure in severe assault cases.

Authorities set bond at $100,000 for Turner and at $20,000 for Tuck.

Spring is a middle-class, largely white suburb of 36,000 residents, located about 10 miles north of the Houston city line.

[Banks91]

whether the guy dies or not, give them the death penalty

[Banks91]

Lol you know what, let them stay in prison for years and years.

They put a pipe in the guys ass, what are the chances they get pipes of different kind put in them? I'd say almost 100%. How ironic.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I say life without parol! Cage their asses for eternity!

[2Blonde]

It's really sad that people in this this day and age still raise their children to think that way about others. :depressed

[MoSpur]

That is sad. All because he tried to makeout with some chick.

[Jekka]

Even if the guy doesn't die they still need to attach hate crime charges - whether the penalty is worse or not the perpetrators deserve to have that charge attached to their names for the rest of their lives.

[desflood]

I'm sure their parents are very proud.

[IX_Equilibrium]

Geez, these kids today with their "Dan Fogelberg" and their "hoola hoops".

[ALVAREZ6]

They should go through the rest of their lives in prison.





Ganging up on someone is the biggest pussy move you can do. What ever happened to fighting 1 on 1?

[ShoogarBear]

Ganging up on someone is the biggest pussy move you can do. What ever happened to fighting 1 on 1?

You're not suggesting that if it had been 1-on-1 that would have been okay?

[ALVAREZ6]

You're not suggesting that if it had been 1-on-1 that would have been okay?
Hell no.



The bottom half of my post had nothing to do with that I think about their punishment, I was just stating that these white kids think they are tough for ganging up on someone, when it is a complete pussy move.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Authorities set bond at $100,000 for Turner and at $20,000 for Tuck.



That makes bail all of $2,000 for Tuck. That's pretty f'ed up for attempted murder.

[Willinsa]

Let them stay in prison, I bet they will be very popular.

[thispego]

poor kid, for no other reason than allegedly trying to kiss a girl

sadly for the 16 year old, all three of these kids' lives are over

[Spurminator]

I wonder if the 12-year old girl was a sister of either of the two attackers.

Not that it would justify anything, but it would be an interesting element. Sounds like the racial aspect is being overplayed here.

[Dre_7]

Did he even try to kiss her? It just says they believed he tried to kiss.

This jerks should spend alot of time in prison for what they did. It is just sick!

[ObiwanGinobili]

whether the guy dies or not, give them the death penalty

A fucking men.
that makes me sick.

[T-Pain]

why are they even thinkin about putting a hate-crime charge on them? its obvious if they were yelling racial slurs as they were attacking him. and if its because of the death penalty, the prosecution doesnt have to push for death, they can throw him in prison for life.

[2Blonde]

I wonder if the 12-year old girl was a sister of either of the two attackers.

Not that it would justify anything, but it would be an interesting element. Sounds like the racial aspect is being overplayed here.

How exactly is the racial aspect being overplayed here?


The attackers forced the boy out of the house party, beat him and sodomized him with a metal pipe, shouting epithets "associated with being Hispanic," said Lt. John Martin with the Harris County Sheriff's Department.

Sounds pretty racially motivated to me. My guess is that they will charge them with the hate crime whether or not the boy survives.

[Vashner]

Wow what a bunch of dickheads. Lock em up the throw away the key.

And like others suggested. Put them in with a real gay prision.

[SpursWoman]

:(

[Spurminator]

How exactly is the racial aspect being overplayed here?

Sounds pretty racially motivated to me. My guess is that they will charge them with the hate crime whether or not the boy survives.

I saw plenty of fights in High School, and it was pretty common to hear racial slurs during the fight. But those fights didn't start because a white guy wanted to beat up a black guy because of his race, or vice versa. It just sort of came with the package... you throw punches and hurl insults. If someone is a certain race, that's an easy insult for the weak-minded.

They should be put away for a very long time. They don't belong in civilized society. But focusing on the racial slurs and the races of the kids involved implies that this is somehow a greater crime because the victim was a particular race.

Anyway, I'm not gonna soapbox this one to death. Suffice it to say I think they should be severely punished for what they've done, regardless of why they did it.

[midgetonadonkey]

I understand beating the shit out of someone but why butt fuck them?

[Vashner]

Yea as a white boy growing up on the south east side. A lot of running like forrest gump :) But at least they gave me normal beat downs. Worst was a slightly cut throat at Connell middle school and once on the way home they threw a shurieken in my back haha I pulled it out and threw it back.

Then one day I made some chucks, got training on them, put them in my steel toes. Walked up to this dude Roland that was the guy that cut me and tore his shit up. They didn't mess with me after that.

On like 15 years later they found that guy Roland dead at Victoria Courts. He tried to rip off some brothers for drugs and they shot him in the back.

[Borosai]

Life in prison is far worse than the death penalty. Git'r done!

[CharlieMac]

God damn, even their names sound like hick trash.

I'm not a fan of attaching the "hate crime" label to charges to make the punishment more severe, but I'm willing to make an exemption here.

[atxrocker]

this is sad. just fucking sad man. these fucking punks deserve to burn in hell for this shit. roughing the dude up woulda been shitty enought, but sticking a pipe in em and pouring the bleach.. whatever punishment these shitheads get is catching a break. i hope they pay for it, severely. hopefully the mexicans in there find out what these punks did..

[Extra Stout]

Those boys deserved to be gangraped each and every day in prison until their intestines stick six inches out of each of their asses, and so they have a fistula into their bladder so that their dick stops up with their own shit.

[timvp]

I wonder if the 12-year old girl was a sister of either of the two attackers.

Not that it would justify anything, but it would be an interesting element. Sounds like the racial aspect is being overplayed here.

:tu

Exactly what I was thinking when I read the article. To me, I could understand someone getting pissed if a 16-year-old tried to kiss their 12-year-old sister. That is just gross. Of course the 16-year-old didn't deserve getting Ray Allened, but trying to kiss a 12-year-old wasn't the brightest move on his part.

Plus, like Spurmintor said, I believe that the racial aspect is overplayed. They didn't attack him because he was "Hispanic", they attacked him because he tried to kiss the 12-year-old (alledgedly, of course). I believe they started throwing some slurs at him, but that shouldn't even register as part of the story. The rest of what they did to the kid was bad enough, calling him a wetback or whatever when they were doing it shouldn't even be part of the story and I don't believe it was a hate crime.

[T Park]

Every crime IMO is a hate crime.

Is there such a thing as a "loving nice crime"?

[SA210]

:tu

Exactly what I was thinking when I read the article. To me, I could understand someone getting pissed if a 16-year-old tried to kiss their 12-year-old sister. That is just gross. Of course the 16-year-old didn't deserve getting Ray Allened, but trying to kiss a 12-year-old wasn't the brightest move on his part.

Plus, like Spurmintor said, I believe that the racial aspect is overplayed. They didn't attack him because he was "Hispanic", they attacked him because he tried to kiss the 12-year-old (alledgedly, of course). I believe they started throwing some slurs at him, but that shouldn't even register as part of the story. The rest of what they did to the kid was bad enough, calling him a wetback or whatever when they were doing it shouldn't even be part of the story and I don't believe it was a hate crime.
They use racial slurs while doing what they did to him and that's not worth mentioning?

Yea, ok.

And they definitely did hate him, obviously.

[timvp]

Some people need an introduction to the meaning of hate crimes.

[Kori Ellis]

Hate crime normally means you commit the crime against someone because of their race (ethnicity, sexual orientation). It doesn't mean that you happen to call them racial slurs while you are beating them up. So unless these two have some sort of history of hating Hispanics, then this probably cannot be categorized as a hate crime. Because it doesn't seem like they did this because of his race.

Anyway, this is horrible. I'd like them to get the stiffest penalty possible if/when convicted.

[SA210]

Some people need an introduction to the meaning of hate crimes.
No, I don't need an introduction to the meaning of hate crimes. It's easy for you to call someone stupid in so many words, but it doesn't really solve anything.

They hated the kid, obviously. Now was it because of race? If so, legally it would be considered a hate crime if he dies, we can only go by the article.

The article states that they beat him because he tried to kiss a "white girl" and they used racial slurs towards him while they beat and sodomized him.

They did some pretty horrible things to him, it's not like they beat his butt and that's it and ran off. They took their time to sodomize the kid while using these racial slurs. That is hate, racial hate.

If the article left out that it was their sister or some other crap like that, that's not our fault to assume what the writer actually wrote.

[T Park]

The article states that they beat him because he tried to kiss a "white girl" and they used racial slurs towards him while they beat and sodomized him.



But did they beat him just because he was hispanic?

If so, thats a hate crime, if they beat him up just because he wanted to kiss a 12 year old, then they are just fucked up kids that took a beating too far.

[atxrocker]

not that it matters now, but i got to wondering who, if anybody, the guy went to the party with and where they were while this was going down. did he show up with other hispanics and was singled out soley because he tried to kiss a girl (btw, though she was only 12 this was hardly illegal. there are bigger offenders then teens attempting to kiss chicks 4 yrs their junior) or did he go solo? you would think if he went with friends they would have taken up for him or had his back. god, this type of shit really fucking pisses me off. fucking trailor trash hicks.

[atxrocker]

But did they beat him just because he was hispanic?

If so, thats a hate crime, if they beat him up just because he wanted to kiss a 12 year old, then they are just fucked up kids that took a beating too far.

thats probably the understament of the year

[SA210]

But did they beat him just because he was hispanic?

If so, thats a hate crime, if they beat him up just because he wanted to kiss a 12 year old, then they are just fucked up kids that took a beating too far.

On News4, Randy Beamer reported, they said the reason they did it was because he was Hispanic and he tried to kiss a "white girl".

So much for people thinking this didn't have anything to do with race and that it was being exaggerated.

[Kori Ellis]

On News4, Randy Beamer reported, they said the reason they did it was because he was Hispanic and he tried to kiss a "white girl".

So much for people not thinking this had anything to do with race and was being exxagerrated.

I don't know how they concluded that it was because of race. Did the victim say that? Was the kissing thing just an excuse/were they going to beat him anyway? Were there witnesses to the crime? If so, why didn't they try to stop it?

[T Park]

On News4, Randy Beamer reported, they said the reason they did it was because he was Hispanic and he tried to kiss a "white girl".

So much for people thinking this didn't have anything to do with race that it was being exaggerated

Because you can believe EVERYTHING that is said on the news.

[SA210]

I don't know how they concluded that it was because of race. Did the victim say that? Was the kissing thing just an excuse/were they going to beat him anyway? Were there witnesses to the crime? If so, why didn't they try to stop it?
I just spoke to Chris at News4 and he said the Police Officers reported, the reason the boys attacked him was because they were angry with the "Hispanic" because he tried to kiss a "white girl".

[SA210]

Because you can believe EVERYTHING that is said on the news.
Nah, I don't believe much on Fox News.

[E20]

Nigga, I'll scrape 'dem.

I hope they go to jail and die.

[timvp]

I just spoke to Chris at News4 and he said the Police Officers reported, the reason the boys attacked him was because they were angry with the "Hispanic" because he tried to kiss a "white girl".

That's not at all how the article read but if that's the case, then yeah it's a hate crime.

Thank your friend Chris for the scoop :rolleyes

[SA210]

That's not at all how the article read but if that's the case, then yeah it's a hate crime.

Thank your friend Chris for the scoop :rolleyes

The article did pretty much say the same thing, they did it because he was Hispanic and tried to kiss a white girl.

[timvp]

I talked to Jose at News4 and he said it was age related.

[T Park]

I talked to Justino at ABC 12, and he said it was cause of age too.

[SA210]

I talked to Jose at News4 and he said it was age related.

Wow, so the officers that were actually there, were lying?

Also, one of the boys has Hitlers birthday tattooed on himself.
Just something to think about.

[Kori Ellis]

Also, one of the boys has Hitlers birthday tattoed on himself.
Just something to think about.

That's interesting. Thanks for the info.

I'll just pray for the victim. Hopefully the justice system comes thru and punishes the criminals rightfully.

[SA210]

That's interesting. Thanks for the info.

I'll just pray for the victim. Hopefully the justice system comes thru and punishes the criminals rightfully.
Your welcome.

The one with the Hitler dob tattoo was in court today.

[Extra Stout]

Attackers are white supremacist skinheads (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3826051.html)

Details of brutal pipe assault emerge
Teenager clings to life as case laced with ethnic undertones grabs national notice


By MIKE GLENN and PEGGY O'HARE
Copyright 2006 Houston Chronicle

The brutalized teen was a popular student and high school football player in Spring once featured in a fashion layout in the school's yearbook.

Two older teens accused of attacking him were described by other youths as troublemakers and "skinheads."

In a case that's garnering national attention, a 16-year-old clings to life at Memorial Hermann Hospital while the other two are in the Harris County Jail — charged with aggravated sexual assault after prosecutors accused them of sodomizing him with a pipe because they think he tried to kiss a 12-year-old girl.

"How do you muster up that much hatred?" asked Carolyn Cook, the mother of one of the victim's friends.

The brutal night began about 11:30 p.m. Saturday when the 16-year-old went to a party at a home in the 21300 block of Glenbranch. Investigators don't know how many people were there but said the group included David Henry Tuck, 18, of the 3400 block of Nutwood, and Keith Robert Turner, 17, of the 21000 block of Star Grass.

Incensed at the teen because of the girl, Tuck and Turner dragged him in the back yard and began beating him, detectives said.

"They stomped his head with their boots," said Harris County Sheriff's Lt. John Denholm. "They stripped him naked and sodomized him with the PVC pipe used to hold up a patio umbrella."

Tuck then kicked the pipe, causing even further damage, prosecutors said at a Thursday morning hearing.

"I don't mean just a little bit," Harris County prosecutor Mike Trent told District Judge Michael McSpadden. "He kicked it in and shoved it so far in that he has caused major internal injuries and organ damage." Tuck wore steel-toed boots when he attacked the teen and kicked him in the head, Trent said.

The attackers slashed his chest with a knife and hurled ethnic slurs at the teen, who is Hispanic. Then they apparently tried to cover up the crime, authorities said. "They poured bleach on his body to destroy any evidence," Denholm said.

He was left for dead in the yard for 10 hours before help was called.

Steven Bullock saw his friend Thursday at Memorial Hermann Hospital. The teen was unconscious, his chest marked from the knife attack.

"I was standing next to his bed. He didn't look good," Bullock said. "It was worse than I expected."

He remains in extremely critical condition, prosecutors said, and may not survive.

The attack stunned students at Klein Collins High School, which the younger teen once attended before transferring.

"Everyone is praying and hoping that he gets better. He's a good friend," said David Cook, a former football teammate. "Nobody is going to be the same after this. It's all going to be different."

A Web profile of the teen on MySpace shows pictures of the smiling student with his friends. It lists his interests — not unlike those of others his age — such as Houston Rockets star Tracy McGrady and favorite musicians. Outraged friends left messages, including one that read: "God is watching over you and he knows as well as i that you are too strong to let this overcome you. I hope to see you real soon."

Cook called his friend "a cool kid" who liked nothing better than cracking jokes with his buddies: "I don't see how that could happen to somebody I knew. He's a good friend of mine."

Cook said he has known Turner for several years and doesn't understand how he could have been involved in such an act.

"He was always one of my best friends. I never thought he could do something like this," Cook said.

Turner's alleged involvement in the attack also baffled Cook's mother.

"David Tuck is more well-known for having a rougher reputation," Carolyn Cook said. "(Turner) has a reputation of being more of a follower."

Bullock said he has heard Tuck use slurs.

The victim probably would not have gone to the party had he known the two also would be there, David Cook said.

"Everybody has heard about David (Tuck)," David Cook said. "Everybody knows him as a skinhead around here."

Cook said he has seen Nazi swastikas painted on the fence at Tuck's house. "It sounds like something you would see in a movie, but it's all real," he said.

Several people who live in Tuck's subdivision portrayed Tuck as a boy who had been violent and troubled since he was young and had long exhibited a fascination with neo-Nazis.

Jason Savage, 17, and Tommy Peterson, both Klein Collins sophomores, said Tuck paraded around the subdivision with a flag of a swastika on Martin Luther King Day.

Richard Rogers, who lives next door to the family, answered his door Thursday night with a .357-caliber Magnum in his hand. He said he was carrying it because he was concerned that Tuck would be out on bail.

"The kid is a white supremacist," Rogers said.

More details about the attack surfaced Thursday as Tuck appeared in court to answer the aggravated sexual assault charge. Although his bail had been set at $20,000, McSpadden ordered him held without bail. Turner, also charged with aggravated sexual assault, is jailed in lieu of $100,000 bail.

Prosecutors revealed that a third person, a juvenile, may have participated in the assault. That boy is being treated only as a witness and will not be charged, prosecutors said.

Prosecutors will not pursue the incident as a hate crime — because that would not enhance the first-degree felony charges or penalty possibilities — but said evidence of an ethnic motivation will be presented to jurors to consider if and when they weigh punishment, Trent said. Tuck and Turner are white.

The suspects admitted involvement in the attack, but "they're pointing fingers at each other as to who did what," Trent told the judge.

Defense attorney Chuck Hinton, appointed to represent Tuck, declined to comment. Trent said the charges will be upgraded to capital murder if the victim dies.

Family members of the teen, Tuck and Turner could not be reached for comment.

Bill Murphy, Zeke Minaya and Kimberly Stauffer contributed to this report

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Vermin like this are crawling all over East Texas.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

:tu

Exactly what I was thinking when I read the article. To me, I could understand someone getting pissed if a 16-year-old tried to kiss their 12-year-old sister. That is just gross. Of course the 16-year-old didn't deserve getting Ray Allened, but trying to kiss a 12-year-old wasn't the brightest move on his part.

Plus, like Spurmintor said, I believe that the racial aspect is overplayed. They didn't attack him because he was "Hispanic", they attacked him because he tried to kiss the 12-year-old (alledgedly, of course). I believe they started throwing some slurs at him, but that shouldn't even register as part of the story. The rest of what they did to the kid was bad enough, calling him a wetback or whatever when they were doing it shouldn't even be part of the story and I don't believe it was a hate crime.
you're telling me they forced a lead pipe up his ass simply because he tried to kiss a 12 year old??? are you joking? There was MOST definately hate on behalf of those two low lives and it sure as hell isn't just about a freaking kiss.

Look, it doesn't say anywhere that the 12 year old was their sister, so I don't know where you get that. You don't think its a hate crime, fine, but don't come up with hypothetical scenarios, stick to the facts.

If you think them calling the guy racial insults while they were ass raping him with a pipe has more to do with a 12 year old girl being kissed than it has with racial hatred I really don't know what you are thinking.


Hate crime normally means you commit the crime against someone because of their race (ethnicity, sexual orientation). It doesn't mean that you happen to call them racial slurs while you are beating them up. So unless these two have some sort of history of hating Hispanics, then this probably cannot be categorized as a hate crime. Because it doesn't seem like they did this because of his race.

Anyway, this is horrible. I'd like them to get the stiffest penalty possible if/when convicted.
are you serious? what else would you say was the reason??

EDIT: in light of Extra Stout's article and other evidence it is certain it was a hate crime, but I don't understand how anyone could think it wasn't right from the get go.

[rustyshackleford]

i've been lurking for a while but finally decided to post cause i had some time to waste. now obviously these kids are pretty messed up and this may or may not be a hate crime based on the definition and the hispanic kid did not deserve any of this, but if you can put that all aside, i don't know if the victim didn't have something going on either. what kind of sixteen year old digs on 12 year olds? isn't that like a sophomore in high school and a sixth grader? there is a 99.99999 percent chance she still looks like a little girl and hasn't finished puberty. i don't know about the rest of the fellas on this forum, but when i was sixteen i was thinking about hitting skins and if i saw one of my classmates trying to kiss on a sixth grader i would've thought it was pretty messed up. now if any of the that is true about him trying to kiss her and not just something they made up, he didn't deserved to get ass raped or beat to an inch of his life, but he did deserve to get his ass whipped like a normal human being. just my thought

[MaNuMaNiAc]

i've been lurking for a while but finally decided to post cause i had some time to waste. now obviously these kids are pretty messed up and this may or may not be a hate crime based on the definition and the hispanic kid did not deserve any of this, but if you can put that all aside, i don't know if the victim didn't have something going on either. what kind of sixteen year old digs on 12 year olds? isn't that like a sophomore in high school and a sixth grader? there is a 99.99999 percent chance she still looks like a little girl and hasn't finished puberty. i don't know about the rest of the fellas on this forum, but when i was sixteen i was thinking about hitting skins and if i saw one of my classmates trying to kiss on a sixth grader i would've thought it was pretty messed up. now if any of the that is true about him trying to kiss her and not just something they made up, he didn't deserved to get ass raped or beat to an inch of his life, but he did deserve to get his ass whipped like a normal human being. just my thought
Dude, when I was 15, I went out with girls that were 14 or 13. What is the big deal?? Do I deserve to get beaten up!?? I think you are full of shit! Its not like we're talking about a 20 year old taking advantage of a little girl. This is a 3 year difference!

Besides I've known 13 year old girls that look like they are 15 or older, its not about the age or how the look. It was just a fucking kiss, and you are advocating the guy deserved getting beat up!??

[rustyshackleford]

i don't know, there is a big difference between a 14 and 12 year old. even a 13 and 12 year old. it's called puberty. people change you know during that time period to look older. 4 years is such a huge difference when you're that young. i worked with kids for the past year and the difference between a sixt grader and 10 grader is astronomical. i'm just saying if i was that young and immature, saw this dude trying to get with the sixth grader, i'm not saying i'd beat him up, but if it happened then i'd understand. to answer your question, i have no problem with a 15 and 13 year old, but there reaches a point where it's not right. all that being said, this is making a crazy judgement on the dude from a little article, and obviously the other kids are definitely sick

[SA210]

Attackers are white supremacist skinheads (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/3826051.html)

Two older teens accused of attacking him were described by other youths as troublemakers and "skinheads."
Hey T Park, I think your's and timvp's theory that it was age related might be true, let's read on.


sodomizing him with a pipe because they think he tried to kiss a 12-year-old girl.

"How do you muster up that much hatred?" asked Carolyn Cook, the mother of one of the victim's friends.

Well, we now know that it wasn't their sister, or maybe we knew that from the 1st article.

I mean since the article states it was racism, why not pull other theories out of nowhere and disregard the facts. Maybe I should claim that maybe they poured bleach on him because the kid needed to be whiter in their opinion?

Since your theories shouldn't be far fetched, then why should that one, right? :rolleyes


.
"They stomped his head with their boots," said Harris County Sheriff's Lt. John Denholm. "They stripped him naked and sodomized him with the PVC pipe used to hold up a patio umbrella."

Tuck then kicked the pipe, causing even further damage, prosecutors said at a Thursday morning hearing.

"I don't mean just a little bit," Harris County prosecutor Mike Trent told District Judge Michael McSpadden. "He kicked it in and shoved it so far in that he has caused major internal injuries and organ damage." Tuck wore steel-toed boots when he attacked the teen and kicked him in the head, Trent said.I really wish I were there. :pctoss


The attackers slashed his chest with a knife and hurled ethnic slurs at the teen, who is Hispanic. Then they apparently tried to cover up the crime, authorities said. "They poured bleach on his body to destroy any evidence," Denholm said. He was left for dead in the yard for 10 hours before help was called.
Steven Bullock saw his friend Thursday at Memorial Hermann Hospital. The teen was unconscious, his chest marked from the knife attack.
"I was standing next to his bed. He didn't look good," Bullock said. "It was worse than I expected."
He remains in extremely critical condition, prosecutors said, and may not survive.
Darn, all cuz of age? All the time they took and hate they had to attack him with a knife, kick the pipe in, pour bleach on him, using racial slurs. That's pretty bad.



"Everybody knows him as a skinhead around here."

Cook said he has seen Nazi swastikas painted on the fence at Tuck's house. "It sounds like something you would see in a movie, but it's all real," he said.

Several people who live in Tuck's subdivision portrayed Tuck as a boy who had been violent and troubled since he was young and had long exhibited a fascination with neo-Nazis.

Jason Savage, 17, and Tommy Peterson, both Klein Collins sophomores, said Tuck paraded around the subdivision with a flag of a swastika on Martin Luther King Day.

Richard Rogers, who lives next door to the family, answered his door Thursday night with a .357-caliber Magnum in his hand. He said he was carrying it because he was concerned that Tuck would be out on bail.

"The kid is a white supremacist," Rogers said.


Hey, you guys were right, it was way overblown, this couldn't be racism at all, as a matter of fact, where would they even come to that conclusion?


What would make them think that to begin with? You're right, like some of you said, it looks like it was not racial at all and was just being exaggerated, and it's not like the 1st article mentioned that is was racial and was because he tried to kiss a "white girl" anyway. :rolleyes

You see, I think that's the ignorance of todays racism. It's here, it's definitely alive today and people are blind to it and maybe sometimes they want to be blind to it. Pretty sad.

My prayers are with the kid. :depressed

[ObiwanGinobili]

When I was 12 1/2 I had a boy friend who was 15.. for the 1st 3 weeks we were together. then he turned 16. He was 16 and I was 12 for another 5 months. :lol

Nothing *gross* about it. We went ot the same school, had the same friends.... and , sadly, I looked the same at 12 1/2 as I do now at 25.... like an almost woman.
We were "togetjer" for close on 3 years. My parents never had a problem with it and noone thought our age difference was weird.

_______________________________________________

That article makes me want to vomit. I dont; think I can finish my breakfast.

They stomped his head with their boots," said Harris County Sheriff's Lt. John Denholm. "They stripped him naked and sodomized him with the PVC pipe used to hold up a patio umbrella."

Tuck then kicked the pipe, causing even further damage, prosecutors said at a Thursday morning hearing.


"I don't mean just a little bit," Harris County prosecutor Mike Trent told District Judge Michael McSpadden. "He kicked it in and shoved it so far in that he has caused major internal injuries and organ damage." Tuck wore steel-toed boots when he attacked the teen and kicked him in the head, Trent said.


Jason Savage, 17, and Tommy Peterson, both Klein Collins sophomores, said Tuck paraded around the subdivision with a flag of a swastika on Martin Luther King Day.


I never travel thru East Texas. My potato-hispanic husband was on the recieving end of some racial hate in East Texas when he traveled there in High School as President of VICA. :(

[ObiwanGinobili]

I think your soposed to italisize the blue.

Good post.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

When I was 12 1/2 I had a boy friend who was 15.. for the 1st 3 weeks we were together. then he turned 16. He was 16 and I was 12 for another 5 months. :lol

Nothing *gross* about it. We went ot the same school, had the same friends.... and , sadly, I looked the same at 12 1/2 as I do now at 25.... like an almost woman.
We were "togetjer" for close on 3 years. My parents never had a problem with it and noone thought our age difference was weird.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies2/smitu.gif see, that's what I'm talking about. It is perfectly normal. To even say the guy deserved a beating for it is moronic!

[SA210]

I think your soposed to italisize the blue.

Good post.
Thanks, edited. :)

[Kori Ellis]

Obviously now that the details are out, everyone can see it was racially motivated. But from the original article, it wasn't that obvious to me just because he was Hispanic and they were white that it was solely BECAUSE of race.

But sorry Obi and ManuMania, a 12-year-old being involved with a 16-year-old isn't normal.

[SA210]

Obviously now that the details are out, everyone can see it was racially motivated. But from the original article, it wasn't that obvious to me just because he was Hispanic and they were white that it was solely BECAUSE of race.

But sorry Obi and ManuMania, a 12-year-old being involved with a 16-year-old isn't normal.
"White teens accused of brutal "racist" attack" <<---- Title of the article by the Associated Press

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/27/te...k.ap/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/27/texas.attack.ap/index.html)

SPRING, Texas (AP) -- Two white teenagers severely beat and sodomized a 16-year-old "Hispanic boy" who they believed had tried to kiss a 12-year-old "white girl" at a party, authorities said.
-----------------------------------------------------------------

The title says it, and the very 1st sentence mentions they sodomized him, the Hispanic, who they believed tried to kiss a "white girl".

That, obviously was the focus of the police.

[Kori Ellis]

Most articles and news stories point out race.

It doesn't mean they are all hate crimes.

"White girl missing.."
"Black teenager shot in gang violence.."

[SA210]

Most articles and news stories point out race.

It doesn't mean they are all hate crimes.

"White girl missing.."
"Black teenager shot in gang violence.."

Only thing is, This article didn't just say Hispanic boy found beaten.

It said the white boys were accused of "brutal racist attack".

[Kori Ellis]

I get your point. But just the title of the article said that. In the original article, there was no real evidence or reasoning of why they were calling it a racial attack other than the racial slurs. So it wasn't an obvious conclusion without more details. A lot of times here in society, things are slanted toward racial issues ... you are a smart person, I'm sure you realize that. So I don't get why you are so angry for people here just wanting to know more details before the race card was thrown. You act like Spurminator or timvp are racist for not agreeing right away. And I resent your insinuations. timvp and I are in an interracial marriage, so we obviously are up on race issues. He (like I) was just waiting for more details before assuming it was racially motivated.

So please back off.

[SA210]

I get your point. But just the title of the article said that. In the original article, there was no real evidence or reasoning of why they were calling it a racial attack other than the racial slurs. So it wasn't an obvious conclusion without more details. A lot of times here in society, things are slanted toward racial issues ... you are a smart person, I'm sure you realize that. So I don't get why you are so angry for people here just wanting to know more details before the race card was thrown. You act like Spurminator or timvp are racist for not agreeing right away. And I resent your insinuations. timvp and I are in an interracial marriage, so we obviously are up on race issues. He (like I) was just waiting for more details before assuming it was racially motivated.

So please back off.
I never acted like they were racists. I insinuated that they were ignorant to the racial aspect of the article.

And this doesn't seem as if timvp was waiting for more details. This is how he saw it.


They didn't attack him because he was "Hispanic", they attacked him because he tried to kiss the 12-year-old (alledgedly, of course). I believe they started throwing some slurs at him, but that shouldn't even register as part of the story. The rest of what they did to the kid was bad enough, calling him a wetback or whatever when they were doing it shouldn't even be part of the story and I don't believe it was a hate crime.
I think maybe you misunderstood why I was still posting. I don't understand the "please back off" statement. I'm just participating in arguement and debate like everyone else on this board. I'm a big fan of yours, I'm just touched by this story.

Sorry.

[Kori Ellis]

You can keep posting all day about it. But your sarcasm and attacking of people who had differing opinions than yours and weren't jumping to the conclusion it was race related just because of the title of the article isn't right.

That was timvp's opinion based on the original article. He ignored the title of the article because of how often things get slanted toward racism when there are not. Obviously spurminator did the same thing (see his post is regarding the sister angle prior to timvp's). I too was waiting for more details because by the text of the original article, I wasn't going to assume that it was race related.


You see, I think that's the ignorance of todays racism. It's here, it's definitely alive today and people are blind to it and maybe sometimes they want to be blind to it. Pretty sad.

You calling us ignorant is where I'm telling you to back off. Obviously we aren't ignorant to the subject of race.

[Spurminator]

Glad to see the details have surfaced. Obviously race played a major role in this attack, but there were not enough details in the original article to make that connection.

My hope for their burning in hell for eternity stands regardless.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

But sorry Obi and ManuMania, a 12-year-old being involved with a 16-year-old isn't normal. really? why? because you say so? just wondering wether you mean it doens't happen often, or wether you mean its wrong.

[SA210]

You can keep posting all day about it. But your sarcasm and attacking of people who had differing opinions than yours and weren't jumping to the conclusion it was race related just because of the title of the article isn't right.

That was timvp's opinion based on the original article. He ignored the title of the article because of how often things get slanted toward racism when there are not. Obviously spurminator did the same thing (see his post is regarding the sister angle prior to timvp's). I too was waiting for more details because by the text of the original article, I wasn't going to assume that it was race related.



You calling us ignorant is where I'm telling you to back off. Obviously we aren't ignorant to the subject of race.

The article said that they were being "ACCUSED" of a racial beating. That says alot.

Now from Not only what the title says , but from the article, he assumed that race had No part in it whatsoever. That's why I said it was ignorance. It's fine to say maybe it could be something else, but to completely disregard the race issue (as timvp did) didn't make sense to me.

Of course there are possibilities that it could be something else, I know all too well of how the race card gets played alot of times, but to disregard the accusations and just assume it was something else? Based on what? That the race card is played out?

I know you may have been waiting for more details, but timvp had his mind made up if you read his staements. Spurminator however, Did leave it open for further details.

You can have differing opinions. My sarcasm was to prove a point and everyone here does it.

timvp was the one that said I need to be introduced to the meaning of hate crimes.

And I didn't only base my thoughts on the racial aspect of the article and the headline alone,

But also how the kids actually took there time to display their hatred on the boy. Like taking the time to not only beat him to where doctors think the boy is going to die at any moment, but also to sodomize the poor kid, and to bleach him, and to leave him for dead in the backyard overnight?

This is important.

I based my opinion on what could drive That kind of hate, and I figured that others wouldn't be blind to that and completely disregard racism as a possible motivation for That kind of hate.

I looked at the meat of the story, not just the headlines.
I have to disagree.

[Kori Ellis]

This isn't the political forum and I'm not going to argue with you. It seems you like to argue just to argue.

Some people chose to wait for more details and some didn't. Apparently prosecutors were waiting for details too, thus the reason they said they hadn't attached hate crime charges yet. As Spurminator said "there were not enough details in the original article to make that connection."

I resent you calling my husband and I ignorant to race issues. That's all I had to say.

[SA210]

. Apparently prosecutors were waiting for details too, thus the reason they said they hadn't attached hate crime charges yet.

Prosecutors will not pursue the incident as a hate crime — because that would not enhance the first-degree felony charges or penalty possibilities — but said evidence of an ethnic motivation will be presented to jurors to consider if and when they weigh punishment, Trent said. Tuck and Turner are white.

[Kori Ellis]

I said "WERE", SA210. I'm aware that they have the details and are still not doing that now. I was saying WERE waiting .. because the first article states they hadn't done it yet.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Thats fine Kori, but seriously... in this case you have a couple of white trash kids beating and ass raping a hispanic boy while calling him racial insults (All facts that were mentioned in the first article). Seriously, how anyone would disregard the racial implications simply because the racial card is played too often is beyond me. However, I understand why you would want more info before making up your mind.

[Kori Ellis]

ManuMania, everytime that someone attacks, beats up, or kills someone of another race and calls them racial names doesn't mean they did it BECAUSE of race. There's hundreds of other reasons why stuff happens ... they stole from them, they are mental cases, they are retaliating against something else, etc. etc.

That's why I was waiting to see the evidence of racial motivation. To me, Spurminator, timvp and I'm sure several other people, the original AP article didn't have enough details in it to make that conclusion soundly.

[pache100]

Sounds like the racial aspect is being overplayed here.

How is that possible when that was their REASON for attacking him in this way?

[Kori Ellis]

As for your question about the 12-year-old/16-year-old, I would argue that it's morally wrong. A 12-year-old is a pre-pubescent child.

I'm not going to get into it though. I have 30 people coming over to my house tonight and I'm trying to get organized :spin

[MaNuMaNiAc]

As for your question about the 12-year-old/16-year-old, I would argue that it's morally wrong. A 12-year-old is a pre-pubescent child.
morally wrong?? pfff... I resent that

[Extra Stout]

I could understand how one living in San Antonio might be cautious about defining an incident as "racially motivated." The political culture regarding Hispanic-white "race" relations in S.A. is textbook self-victimization identity-politics crap.

But East Texas, roughly everything from I-45 eastward, excluding urban Houston, is a different animal. While I've met some salt of the earth people from up that way... there are also many, many people with fangs bared, ready to strike. If you're not white, or you are white but are married to the "wrong" person or have adopted the "wrong" child, or even if you look a little too "big city," you're taking your life into your own hands if you draw attention to yourself once you get off the major highways.

It's every bit as bad as "the ghetto" in the city, maybe even worse, because they're not just coming after you because they think you have something of value to take, but because they simply hate you and want you to die.

A lot of those people, I think somewhere down through the generations, they stopped being truly human.

[T Park]

I love how SA210 is educating TIMVP on racism, when he himself is a minority :lol

[T Park]

morally wrong?? pfff... I resent that




You can resent it all you want, still doesn't make it right.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I could understand how one living in San Antonio might be cautious about defining an incident as "racially motivated." The political culture regarding Hispanic-white "race" relations in S.A. is textbook self-victimization identity-politics crap.

But East Texas, roughly everything from I-45 eastward, excluding urban Houston, is a different animal. While I've met some salt of the earth people from up that way... there are also many, many people with fangs bared, ready to strike. If you're not white, or you are white but are married to the "wrong" person or have adopted the "wrong" child, or even if you look a little too "big city," you're taking your life into your own hands if you draw attention to yourself once you get off the major highways.

It's every bit as bad as "the ghetto" in the city, maybe even worse, because they're not just coming after you because they think you have something of value to take, but because they simply hate you and want you to die.

A lot of those people, I think somewhere down through the generations, they stopped being truly human.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies2/smitu.gif

[MaNuMaNiAc]

You can resent it all you want, still doesn't make it right.
not right? not right for whom? When I was 15 I had a girlfriend that was 13, in fact I believe we were still together when I turned 16. That relationship was beautiful! Who the hell are you to come in here and tell me that it was wrong?? Seriously

We're not talking creepy old man taking advantage of an impressionable kid here. This is 2 kids.

[T Park]

Who the hell are you to come in here and tell me that it was wrong??

Who the hell are you to tell me me and Kori are wrong for thinking that, if we had a 12 year old daughter, wed be wrong in thinking her dating a 16 year old is wrong.


15 to 13 is alot different than 16 to 12.

[Kori Ellis]

Please go to the Political Forum and make another thread to argue about whether it's "right" for a 12-year-old to date a 16-year-old if you want to debate it.

This story isn't about that.

Prayers to the victim.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Who the hell are you to tell me me and Kori are wrong for thinking that, if we had a 12 year old daughter, wed be wrong in thinking her dating a 16 year old is wrong.


15 to 13 is alot different than 16 to 12.
hey I'm not telling you how to raise your kids man, you want to ban your kid from dating 16 year olds, its fine by me, but don't proclaim its "morally wrong" like its a fact. Its an opinion.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Please go to the Political Forum and make another thread to argue about whether it's "right" for a 12-year-old to date a 16-year-old if you want to debate it.

This story isn't about that.

Prayers to the victim.
you're right

[T Park]

but don't proclaim its "morally wrong" like its a fact

Don't proclaim that its right either.

Works both ways.

[SA210]

I love how SA210 is educating TIMVP on racism, when he himself is a minority :lol
So just by being in a minority race gaurantees that you can't possibly be narrow-minded in a any way and blind to certain racial acts and what possibly drives them?

You make alot of sense. :rolleyes

[T Park]

So just by being in a minority race gaurantees that you can't possibly be narrow-minded in a any way and blind to certain racial acts and what possibly drives them?

You make alot of sense


I think you are being racist by saying that.


I demand a press conference announcing how sorry you are, and how much you love other minorities.

(dials number for lawyers)

[SA210]

I think you are being racist by saying that.


I demand a press conference announcing how sorry you are, and how much you love other minorities.

(dials number for lawyers)
You are ridiculous. You haven't said anything that changed any facts.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Don't proclaim that its right either.

Works both ways.
WTF?? I'm not proclaiming its right, I'm saying it doesn't merit a beat down like rustyshackleford (member.php?u=4283) said. Besides, one doesn't proclaim things "right", I'm not trying to force kids into having those kinds of relationships, I'm saying don't judge the kids that do.

[T Park]

I'm saying don't judge the kids that do

Were not "judging" the kids.

This isnt a clothes choice.

This is a 16 year old vs 12 year old, its wrong, theres too much of an age difference.

Period.



I'm saying it doesn't merit a beat down like rustyshackleford said

who?



You are ridiculous. You haven't said anything that changed any facts.

gawd it was a joke....


Your wound up too tight.

[Phenomanul]

Sad story.... angering in certain regards...

Hope the victim can pull through....

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Were not "judging" the kids.

This isnt a clothes choice.

This is a 16 year old vs 12 year old, its wrong, theres too much of an age difference.

Period.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif again, who the hell are you to say "its wrong, period"?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Sad story.... angering in certain regards...

Hope the victim can pull through....
yeah, hope the guy can out live those fuckers!

[Kori Ellis]

Please go to the Political Forum and make another thread to argue about whether it's "right" for a 12-year-old to date a 16-year-old if you want to debate it.

This story isn't about that.

Prayers to the victim.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smiembarassed.gif

[SpursWoman]

Glad to see the details have surfaced. Obviously race played a major role in this attack, but there were not enough details in the original article to make that connection.

My hope for their burning in hell for eternity stands regardless.


:tu

[Phenomanul]

Were not "judging" the kids.

This isnt a clothes choice.

This is a 16 year old vs 12 year old, its wrong, theres too much of an age difference.

Period.




who?



gawd it was a joke....


Your wound up too tight.


A few questions.... When I was in that age group I didn't go around asking all the other girls how old they were... I probably would have gotten slapped. :madrun

First off, I don't know the circumstances of that party, but it seemed like a high-school party... what was a 12 year old girl doing there???... the context implies she might have been flirting around (though it's not a given)... either way, many girls at age 12 have already gone through enough of the physiological changes that transform their bodies to look like that of 14 and 15 year olds.... This trend has been observed and documented over the past few decades (that children, particularly females, are entering puberty far sooner than the generations preceding them)...

Anyway.... we would have to consider that this could be one of those cases.

[Phenomanul]

oops sorry Kori....

I did not see your previous post.

[SpursWoman]

Thats fine Kori, but seriously... in this case you have a couple of white trash kids beating and ass raping a hispanic boy while calling him racial insults (All facts that were mentioned in the first article). Seriously, how anyone would disregard the racial implications simply because the racial card is played too often is beyond me. However, I understand why you would want more info before making up your mind.


I used to call my husband all kinds of shit when we fought ... white-trash, asshole, bastard...whatever. That doesn't automatically mean I hate white-trash, bastards or whatever....just that I was seriously pissed off and would yell out the nastiest things I could think of while I hurled things to hurt him.

That's why, from the original article...I wouldn't jump to conclusions and use that as matter of fact that it was a race issue. It could very easily been the insinuation of the police officer or journalist (who didn't know the boys personally, btw). The second article obviously makes it a lot more clear...when they talked to the kids/neighbors that actually knew the boys.

Making it a cut & dried case of a hate crime based solely on the first article is seriously jumping to conclusions...you have nothing to base anything on but an article title a journalist made up.

I hope those boys rot in hell.

[T Park]

:tu

Great post SW

[SA210]

I used to call my husband all kinds of shit when we fought ... white-trash, asshole, bastard...whatever. That doesn't automatically mean I hate white-trash, bastards or whatever....just that I was seriously pissed off and would yell out the nastiest things I could think of while I hurled things to hurt him.

That's why, from the original article...I wouldn't jump to conclusions and use that as matter of fact that it was a race issue. It could very easily been the insinuation of the police officer or journalist (who didn't know the boys personally, btw). The second article obviously makes it a lot more clear...when they talked to the kids/neighbors that actually knew the boys.

Making it a cut & dried case of a hate crime based solely on the first article is seriously jumping to conclusions...you have nothing to base anything on but an article title a journalist made up.

I hope those boys rot in hell.

If you read my posts and timvp's post, you would realize that timvp completely disregarded the racial aspect, not leaving it open at all.

And I agreed that of course many cases could have other possibilities, but the fact is he disregarded it as racism completely was mind boggling, especially given the extent of their crime and obvious hate and what the article focused on, racism.

[timvp]

I used to call my husband all kinds of shit when we fought ... white-trash, asshole, bastard...whatever. That doesn't automatically mean I hate white-trash, bastards or whatever....just that I was seriously pissed off and would yell out the nastiest things I could think of while I hurled things to hurt him.

That's why, from the original article...I wouldn't jump to conclusions and use that as matter of fact that it was a race issue. It could very easily been the insinuation of the police officer or journalist (who didn't know the boys personally, btw). The second article obviously makes it a lot more clear...when they talked to the kids/neighbors that actually knew the boys.

Making it a cut & dried case of a hate crime based solely on the first article is seriously jumping to conclusions...you have nothing to base anything on but an article title a journalist made up.

I hope those boys rot in hell.

:tu

You can't read the first article and then think it was 100% racially motivated. If you think you can, you have the reading comprehension of a turnip.

But yeah, good to see SA210 celebrating over the fact that these were in fact skin heads. And also, a 10th grader going out with a 6th grader is pretty trailer park in my book ... although that's a thread for the political forum.

[T Park]

And also, a 10th grader going out with a 6th grader is pretty trailer park in my book

Word.

I live in trailers most of the year, and thats trailer to me...



But yeah, good to see SA210 celebrating over the fact that these were in fact skin heads.

I too noticed his joy in these being racists.

Good to know thats how he rolls.



You can't read the first article and then think it was 100% racially motivated. If you think you can, you have the reading comprehension of a turnip

:lmao

[timvp]

If you read my posts and timvp's post, you would realize that timvp completely disregarded the racial aspect, not leaving it open at all.

And I agreed that of course many cases could have other possibilities, but the fact is he disregarded it as racism completely was mind boggling, especially given the extent of their crime and obvious hate and what the article focused on, racism.

:cry

Stop being a little biotch. I disregarded the racial aspect after reading the first article. Since you obviously can't read, this whole conversation is too far over your head.

Just keep celebrating they were nazi's or whatever. Classy poster we got here . . .

[SA210]

:tu

You can't read the first article and then think it was 100% racially motivated. If you think you can, you have the reading comprehension of a turnip.

But yeah, good to see SA210 celebrating over the fact that these were in fact skin heads. And also, a 10th grader going out with a 6th grader is pretty trailer park in my book ... although that's a thread for the political forum.
I'm celebrating? And you claim I have the reading comprehension of a turnip?

It's not about believing it was 100% racially motivated from the initial article. It's that you 100% disregarded it being racially motivated by reading the initial article.

The extent to which these boys would hate someone to beat him to where he might die any minute now, that they hated him so much that they took the time to sodomize him, then to pour bleach on him, then to leave him in the backyard overnight for dead. That is a driven hate. This is a fact that was in the 1st article. What could have driven this kind of hate?

You chose to ignore that the article stated that is was racially motivated and these were your words. There is no way around it.


I believe that the racial aspect is overplayed. They didn't attack him because he was "Hispanic", they attacked him because he tried to kiss the 12-year-old (alledgedly, of course). I believe they started throwing some slurs at him, but that shouldn't even register as part of the story. The rest of what they did to the kid was bad enough, calling him a wetback or whatever when they were doing it shouldn't even be part of the story and I don't believe it was a hate crime.

[T Park]

yay, we found racists!!!!!

[Extra Stout]

I have a preconceived notion of what Spring is like, so it was easier for me to glean the racist motivation without seeing the second article. The first article didn't go quite as much into the details of the beating.

In S.A., it's less obvious, because in S.A. if you yell at a Southsider for peeing on your lawn, he'll call you a racist.

[mookie2001]

I wonder if that STUFF would fly in P.A.T.

[timvp]

I'm celebrating? And you claim I have the reading comprehension of a turnip?

It's not about believing it was 100% racially motivated from the initial article. It's that you 100% disregarded it being racially motivated by reading the initial article.

Again. I disregarded it based on the first article.


The extent to which these boys would hate someone to beat him to where he might die any minute now, that they hated him so much that they took the time to sodomize him, then to pour bleach on him, then to leave him in the backyard overnight for dead. That is a driven hate. This is a fact that was in the 1st article. What could have driven this kind of hate?

Are you really this stupid?

There are horrendous crimes all the time that aren't racially motivated or could be considered "hate crimes". Do you know what a hate crime is? This case turned out to be a hate crime. But take the exact same circumstances and change the motivation to something other than race, then it wouldn't be a hate crime.

Just because it was a horrible crime doesn't automatically make a hate crime.




You chose to ignore that the article stated that is was racially motivated and these were your words. There is no way around it.

Again, there were no facts in the article that it was racially motivated. It only mentioned that as an opinion of the writer.

Got damn you're dumb.

[SA210]

Again. I disregarded it based on the first article.
Are you really this stupid?

There are horrendous crimes all the time that aren't racially motivated or could be considered "hate crimes". Do you know what a hate crime is? This case turned out to be a hate crime. But take the exact same circumstances and change the motivation to something other than race, then it wouldn't be a hate crime.

Just because it was a horrible crime doesn't automatically make a hate crime.
You see I would agree with that, only thing is this little quote from the 1st sentence of that article.

White teens accused of brutal racist attack
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/27/te...k.ap/index.html (http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/04/27/texas.attack.ap/index.html)

SPRING, Texas (AP) -- Two white teenagers severely beat and sodomized a 16-year-old "Hispanic" boy who they believed had tried to kiss a 12-year-old "white girl" at a party, authorities said.
---------------------------------------------------------
Now considering that race has been mentioned, by authorities by the way and that the authorities were considering hate crime charges as well, but the boy had not died yet; it is not that far fetched to believe it being racially motivated as a possibility.

You disregarded it completely.



Again, there were no facts in the article that it was racially motivated. It only mentioned that as an opinion of the writer.

Got damn you're dumb.
Other than the fact that the writer mentions what authories said. And the fact that the kids were using racial slurs, so then after knowing that it could be racially motivated, then the extent to which the boys displayed their hatred toward the boy after this being a possibility, then it does make it pretty possible, especially to the point that one shouldn't ignore it completely.

Yea, someone would be pretty dumb to come to that conclusion. :rolleyes

[T Park]

Damn I haven't seen that kind of pwnage since Sequ holding the booster chair

I dunno Kris,

thats owned about as much as one can be owned.

[SA210]

I dunno Kris,

thats owned about as much as one can be owned.
Read my last post. Ownage denied.
It's pretty obvious who the ones celebrating are.

[Extra Stout]

SA210,

The first article wasn't really all that obvious. If the tagline had said, "SAN ANTONIO, Texas (AP) --" I would have shared L.J.'s and Kori's skepticism.

[batman2883]

is this thing on?

[SA210]

SA210,

The first article wasn't really all that obvious. If the tagline had said, "SAN ANTONIO, Texas (AP) --" I would have shared L.J.'s and Kori's skepticism.
The point is it was mentioned and he ignored it as a posibility completely.

[Extra Stout]

The point is it was mentioned and he ignored it as a posibility completely.
You're blowing it out of proportion. He expressed his opinion based upon what limited facts he had. He's not some freaking politician who has to hedge everything he says.

I know what S.A. is like. I'd had LULAC personally come after me accusing me of being a white supremacist in order to protect a Hispanic kid who had fucked up. They'll tear down anybody's reputation because they and similar organizations make their livelihood as race-baiting victim-pimps stirring up that same-old Northside vs. Southside woe-is-us crap. 90% of the racism accusations in that town are fabricated political bullshit. After a while, one pretty much assumes they -- and the media -- are crying wolf again until more facts come out.

This part of the state is totally different, with real-life violent redneck white supremacists once you get out in the boonies.

[SA210]

You're blowing it out of proportion. He expressed his opinion based upon what limited facts he had. He's not some freaking politician who has to hedge everything he says.

I know what S.A. is like. I'd had LULAC personally come after me accusing me of being a white supremacist in order to protect a Hispanic kid who had fucked up. They'll tear down anybody's reputation because they and similar organizations make their livelihood as race-baiting victim-pimps stirring up that same-old Northside vs. Southside woe-is-us crap. 90% of the racism accusations in that town are fabricated political bullshit.

This part of the state is totally different, with real-life violent redneck white supremacists once you get out in the boonies.
I understand what you are saying, but the article spoke of racism and what the authorities said, then he disregarded that completely as a possibility.

That's the point, and by the way, many others have posted in here agreeing that it was obvious enough to not disregard racism as being a possibility.

[Spurminator]

What is so difficult to understand?

An article can make mention of race and imply racial motivation, but if it doesn't give any support other than the races of the parties involved and racial slurs during a fight, that is NOT enough to conclude 100% that it was "racially motivated".

Details that establish a preponderance of evidence would include skinhead affiliation, Nazi tattoos, previous violent history... none of which were included in the original article.

Fortunately, this is an example of an article that was correct to link race to the story. But you can't blame people for being skeptical in a time where a black girl accusing white athletes of rape becomes a bigger race issue than a rape issue.

[SA210]

What is so difficult to understand?

An article can make mention of race and imply racial motivation, but if it doesn't give any support other than the races of the parties involved and racial slurs during a fight, that is NOT enough to conclude 100% that it was "racially motivated".

Details that establish a preponderance of evidence would include skinhead affiliation, Nazi tattoos, previous violent history... none of which were included in the original article.

Fortunately, this is an example of an article that was correct to link race to the story. But you can't blame people for being skeptical in a time where a black girl accusing white athletes of rape becomes a bigger race issue than a rape issue.
The authorities felt it was important to mention to the the Press that it was because he tried to kiss a "white girl" and they were thinking about whether to file "hate crime" charges, but the boy hadn't died yet. And of course the brutality of what they did after knowing the racial implications and racial slurs helps to give some kind of an idea.

That's what the authorities were focused on, not any of the other crap some of you would like to bring up. It didn't even say they were trying to find out if maybe it was something else.

Nuff said.

[Jekka]

Nuff said.

Then stop talking.

[SA210]

Then stop talking.
:rolleyes Does this post really offer anything?

[Extra Stout]

The authorities felt it was important to mention to the the Press that it was because he tried to kiss a "white girl" and they were thinking about whether to file "hate crime" charges, but the boy hadn't died yet. And of course the brutality of what they did after knowing the racial implications and racial slurs helps to give some kind of an idea.

That's what the authorities were focused on, not any of the other crap some of you would like to bring up. It didn't even say they were trying to find out if maybe it was something else.

Nuff said.
That Duke case is a good example of why people are so skeptical whenever there are cries of "racism."

There is at best scant evidence of any connection between the alleged rape and the members of the lacrosse team. Yet because of the charged racial and town vs. gown atmosphere, the authorities -- for political reasons -- are eager to paint the issue as a racial one, even as a "hate crime." And of course the media jumps right in. The first stories we read were of spoiled privileged white boys who thought they could have their way with a poor black girl and get away with it. The media had the narrative all ready.

Oh, but wait... then the facts came out. Hmm... maybe this isn't such a slam dunk after all. Maybe it didn't happen the way the media reported it.

Here's Kori's first foray into the thread:

Hate crime normally means you commit the crime against someone because of their race (ethnicity, sexual orientation). It doesn't mean that you happen to call them racial slurs while you are beating them up. So unless these two have some sort of history of hating Hispanics, then this probably cannot be categorized as a hate crime. Because it doesn't seem like they did this because of his race.

Emphasis mine. It turned out that the two of a history of hating Hispanics in that they are white supremacists. Therefore it can be categorized as a hate crime. Kori's initial statement was accurate.

[SA210]

That Duke case is a good example of why people are so skeptical whenever there are cries of "racism."

There is at best scant evidence of any connection between the alleged rape and the members of the lacrosse team. Yet because of the charged racial and town vs. gown atmosphere, the authorities -- for political reasons -- are eager to paint the issue as a racial one, even as a "hate crime." And of course the media jumps right in. The first stories we read were of spoiled privileged white boys who thought they could have their way with a poor black girl and get away with it. The media had the narrative all ready.

Oh, but wait... then the facts came out. Hmm... maybe this isn't such a slam dunk after all. Maybe it didn't happen the way the media reported it.

Here's Kori's first foray into the thread:


Emphasis mine. It turned out that the two of a history of hating Hispanics in that they are white supremacists. Therefore it can be categorized as a hate crime. Kori's initial statement was accurate.

Really? What does Kori have to do with it? This is about timvp's comments which were entirely different from Kori's until of course Kori had to support her man, which is very understandable.

But Kori left it open for those possibilities that you quoted her as saying.

timvp did Not and his comments were entirely different than Kori's, and that's who I was talking about, so it's kind of ridiculous for some in here to try and spin what the arguement was to begin with and paint some other picture.

[TOP-CHERRY]

sigh

[Extra Stout]

But Kori left it open for those possibilities that you quoted her as saying.

timvp did Not and his comments were entirely different than Kori's, and that's who I was talking about, so it's kind of ridiculous for some in here to try and spin what the arguement was to begin with and paint some other picture.

So timvp left no opening for those possibilities? Really?

That's not at all how the article read but if that's the case, then yeah it's a hate crime.

[SA210]

^^ Those weren't his initial statements.

[TOP-CHERRY]

What they did was repugnant.

Why can't you guys just let this bickering die already? It's ridiculous.

[Kori Ellis]

What they did was repugnant.

Why can't you guys just let this bickering die already? It's ridiculous.

Agreed

[Extra Stout]

What they did was repugnant.

Why can't you guys just let this bickering die already? It's ridiculous.
Because people like SA210 are the reason people like timvp get skeptical when allegations of racism come out.

[TOP-CHERRY]

I'd also like to point out that there's a lot of butt-kissing going on in this thread and it's pretty damn annoying.

I'm through venting.

[timvp]

Because people like SA210 are the reason people like timvp get skeptical when allegations of racism come out.

Exactly.

This was a hate crime, no doubt. But it won't always be a hate crime when two white guys beat up a Hispanic guy or when two Hispanic guys beat up a white guy. For some reason SA210 can't comprehend this.

[SA210]

Exactly.

This was a hate crime, no doubt. But it won't always be a hate crime when two white guys beat up a Hispanic guy or when two Hispanic guys beat up a white guy. For some reason SA210 can't comprehend this.
You're reaching. But nothing doing.

[SpursWoman]

I'd also like to point out that there's a lot of butt-kissing going on in this thread and it's pretty damn annoying.

I'm through venting.


Then I guess I won't point out that my initial thought to the original article was in line with what timvp had said. Because my daughter is almost 11 and I know how I would react, and I know how her father especially would react....if a 16 year old was messing with her. Her 9 year old little brother gets pretty pissed when people mess with her, too. And race would have nothing to do with it. That kid would be in deep shit if he were white, purple, black or brown.

[Extra Stout]

I'd also like to point out that there's a lot of butt-kissing going on in this thread and it's pretty damn annoying.

I'm through venting.
Every time I kiss timvp's ass he buys me a beer at the next GTG.

[SpursWoman]

You're reaching. But nothing doing.


Every crime committed or that will be committed in the future that involves a minority and a white person isn't going to automatically be racially motivated. WTF? :lol

[TOP-CHERRY]

I think I'll be a little more specific.

*cough*TPark*cough*

[Extra Stout]

I think I'll be a little more specific.

*cough*TPark*cough*
My ass-kissing was far superior to TParks. I posted the article that disproved L.J.'s initial impressions about the initial article, then turned around and started arguing his side. That is some major-league sucking up. I'm thinking I've earned a good two or three beers.

[SA210]

Every crime committed or that will be committed in the future that involves a minority and a white person isn't going to automatically be racially motivated. WTF? :lol
You see, there's the problem with your goup of friends.

You know for a fact that's Not what I mean and is Not what I am saying, but you purposely paint it that way.

So anyway, I have a meeting to go to. I'll just have to reply later to whatever garbage yall say while I'm out. And you might want to wipe that brown off your nose.

Until later...

[timvp]

And you might want to wipe that brown off

Racially Motivated Forum.

[timvp]

You're reaching. But nothing doing.

How am I reaching?

[MannyIsGod]

Hate crime legislation is a waste of tax payer money. If something is illegal, it is illegal. Murder is illegal regardless of the races inolved. But thats not the way elected officials get votes. Its not enough to simply enforce laws.

No, in order to get people like SA210 on your side, you hae to go out and create HATE CRIMES LEGISLATION! All of a sudden, murder is even WORSE! Of course it isn't, but by championing this type of legislation you can earn the votes of people like SA210 and the people that blindly follow with their signs and banners ready to march and wave.

Oh, and being human isn't illegal either.

[SpursWoman]

You see, there's the problem with your goup of friends.

You know for a fact that's Not what I mean and is Not what I am saying, but you purposely paint it that way.


Why? I just repeated exactly what LJ said and you replied that he was "reaching"...or basically disagreeing. It's not my fault if I assume what you actually wrote. According to you, anyway.


that's not our fault to assume what the writer actually wrote.

:lmao

[T Park]

Wow

Me and manny agree 1000%

Manny, are you scared? :lol



I'd also like to point out that there's a lot of butt-kissing going on in this thread and it's pretty damn annoying.

I'm through venting

I think I'll be a little more specific.

*cough*TPark*cough*


Jees

pardon the fuck out of me.....

[MannyIsGod]

I know SA210's type. Its the reason I no longer do shit with the activists in town. This is exactly why.

[SpursWoman]

You see, there's the problem with your goup of friends.

You know for a fact that's Not what I mean and is Not what I am saying, but you purposely paint it that way.

So anyway, I have a meeting to go to. I'll just have to reply later to whatever garbage yall say while I'm out. And you might want to wipe that brown off your nose.

Until later...


And you may want to go wipe the "goup" off of yours. :lol

[LakerHater0823]

I saw plenty of fights in High School, and it was pretty common to hear racial slurs during the fight. But those fights didn't start because a white guy wanted to beat up a black guy because of his race, or vice versa. It just sort of came with the package... you throw punches and hurl insults. If someone is a certain race, that's an easy insult for the weak-minded.

They should be put away for a very long time. They don't belong in civilized society. But focusing on the racial slurs and the races of the kids involved implies that this is somehow a greater crime because the victim was a particular race.

Anyway, I'm not gonna soapbox this one to death. Suffice it to say I think they should be severely punished for what they've done, regardless of why they did it.


Hurling racial slurs at someone while you fight is one thing but sticking a pipe in someones butt and kicking it in further to inflict as much pain and damage as possible is another. That is pure hatred.

[SpursWoman]

Hurling racial slurs at someone while you fight is one thing but sticking a pipe in someones butt and kicking it in further to inflict as much pain and damage as possible is another. That is pure hatred.


The specifics weren't known until after he posted that...but now that we know more, I definitely agree. Those are some very disturbed individuals.

[LakerHater0823]

OH sorry. I wonder if anyone still thinks it wasn't a hate crime?

[Extra Stout]

OH sorry. I wonder if anyone still thinks it wasn't a hate crime?
One would have to be willfully obtuse at this point.

[LakerHater0823]

One would have to be willfully obtuse at this point.


dems big werdz. i dunno dem. hahaha j/k dude

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Then I guess I won't point out that my initial thought to the original article was in line with what timvp had said. Because my daughter is almost 11 and I know how I would react, and I know how her father especially would react....if a 16 year old was messing with her. Her 9 year old little brother gets pretty pissed when people mess with her, too. And race would have nothing to do with it. That kid would be in deep shit if he were white, purple, black or brown.
For me, it NEVER crossed my mind that the whole thing was just about him kissing the 12 year old girl. I really don't see how anyone could see it that way, but that is just me.

[LakerHater0823]

Yeah I dont think that they would really react that way if a 16 year old tried to kiss their 12 year old daughter. Maybe a punch or two and some good shots to the kidneys but not beating a guy to near death and then sodomizing with a steel pipe. I want to reiterate that the dudes KICKED the pipe in.

[2Blonde]

I have a daughter who falls squarely in this age group, so I've been through this. A lot more girls than most of you realize are going out with older boys. Girls go through puberty much younger these days. Saying 12 year olds are prepubescent is probably a not very accurate anymore. My doctor says the average age for the onset of puberty has gone down quite significantly. When my daughter was 12 she didn't look 12. More like 14-15. Now that she's 14 nobody believes she's only in eighth grade. They usually think she's a junior or senior.

She liked a boy earlier this year right before her 14th birthday. He was 15 and was going to be turning 16 in June. So in my mind I kept seeing my then 13 year old daughter with an almost 16 year old boy (YIKES). But in reality they are only 1 year and 9 months apart in age. While I think 12 and 16 are probably a bit far apart, I do believe you have to look at it on a case by case basis. You want to protect your child's innocence as long as possible.

Also someone mentioned something about 12 year olds being in 6th grade. A lot of them are in 7th.

[SpursWoman]

For me, it NEVER crossed my mind that the whole thing was just about him kissing the 12 year old girl. I really don't see how anyone could see it that way, but that is just me.


My whole life is wrapped around things that happen to little girls that age...because I have one. Naturally that's going to be the first thing that captures my attention. I also am not inclined to throw out the race card anytime a minority is involved in anything and everything bad. People have shown over and over that they can be sadistic and twisted for no reason whatsoever...so I'm not going to jump to any conclusions until I hear the whole story. A journalist's speculation or what an officer assumed isn't the whole story. Finding out that they are skin-head, neo-Nazi, white supremists from people that actually know them is a really good part of the whole story...but that wasn't known until later.

And it's not just you that has issues dealing with people that have different thought processes.

[SpursWoman]

Yeah I dont think that they would really react that way if a 16 year old tried to kiss their 12 year old daughter. Maybe a punch or two and some good shots to the kidneys but not beating a guy to near death and then sodomizing with a steel pipe. I want to reiterate that the dudes KICKED the pipe in.


And I'd like to reiterate that that little factoid wasn't known from just the original article.

[atxrocker]

what the fuck? suddenly this tragedy turned into a discussion of whether its 'right' or not for a 11th grader to try to kiss a 7th grader? big fucking deal, 4 fucking years. the guys is about to fucking die. holy shit, you gotta be shitting me. i hope if this were your brother or cousin or family member maybe you wouldnt take getting a pole kicked in their ass so lightly cause of the 4 year age gap. i personally know people in relationships that have 6-8 year differences in age.. big fucking deal. he is a teen, not a 30 year old man feeling up a fucking 10 year old. good fucking lord.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

what the fuck? suddenly this tragedy turned into a discussion of whether its 'right' or not for a 11th grader to try to kiss a 7th grader? big fucking deal, 4 fucking years. the guys is about to fucking die. holy shit, you gotta be shitting me. i hope if this were your brother or cousin or family member maybe you wouldnt take getting a pole kicked in their ass so lightly cause of the 4 year age gap. i personally know people in relationships that have 6-8 year differences in age.. big fucking deal. he is a teen, not a 30 year old man feeling up a fucking 10 year old. good fucking lord.
hmm... you might want to take a chill pill my friend http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

[T Park]

what the fuck? suddenly this tragedy turned into a discussion of whether its 'right' or not for a 11th grader to try to kiss a 7th grader? big fucking deal, 4 fucking years. the guys is about to fucking die. holy shit, you gotta be shitting me. i hope if this were your brother or cousin or family member maybe you wouldnt take getting a pole kicked in their ass so lightly cause of the 4 year age gap. i personally know people in relationships that have 6-8 year differences in age.. big fucking deal. he is a teen, not a 30 year old man feeling up a fucking 10 year old. good fucking lord.


Spoken like a true dumbass.

[atxrocker]

Spoken like a true dumbass.

really, why cause you dont agree? stfu. your overstated wrong opinion makes no sense.

[rustyshackleford]

when i brought up the age difference i was just wondering if it struck anyone else when they read the story. i think it struck me because some of my limited experience with situations like this. it's frustrating seeing pregnant 13 year old girls from high school kids who don't care about them and on top of that to hear other high school guys who talk about getting with younger girls because it is easy to influence them. when i read 12 year old i was picturing a 6th grader because they are often in the 11-12 range or older and a good percentage turn 13 early in 7th grade and i guess it bothered me. i'm glad to hear that a lot of you think that my experiences are not quite the norm, but i do know often times that some of these situations can be immorale and if i was a parent i might be a little concerned. manumania, it seems you freaked on me for a bit, but i wasn't trying to condemn all situations with this age difference (it sounds like you and obi had good experiences) and my bad leading you to believe that all guys need to get their ass whipped for getting with this young of a girl being that age. it's just the guys who i've come across, going through high school and working with kids, that i wouldn't mind if they got roughed up a little based on what they say are their intentions. sorry for turning the topic of this thread a bit away from the sick pigs and i promise i'll get back to lurking. you guys do entertain me when i have five or so minutes to waste. appreciate that.

[SpursWoman]

what the fuck? suddenly this tragedy turned into a discussion of whether its 'right' or not for a 11th grader to try to kiss a 7th grader? big fucking deal, 4 fucking years. the guys is about to fucking die. holy shit, you gotta be shitting me. i hope if this were your brother or cousin or family member maybe you wouldnt take getting a pole kicked in their ass so lightly cause of the 4 year age gap. i personally know people in relationships that have 6-8 year differences in age.. big fucking deal. he is a teen, not a 30 year old man feeling up a fucking 10 year old. good fucking lord.


Where in the world do you get that anyone is trying to justify what those boys did...whatever the reason? You didn't read much of the conversation, did you? Because you totally missed it.

[spursgurl101]

OMG! Those boys shouldn't get the death penalty even though they deserve it. Two wrongs don't make a right plus they won't suffer if they die quickly, leave them in jail the rest of their pathetic ass lives!

[ALVAREZ6]

OMG! Those boys shouldn't get the death penalty even though they deserve it. Two wrongs don't make a right plus they won't suffer if they die quickly, leave them in jail the rest of their pathetic ass lives!
see what happened?



life could be worse.



enjoy.

[spursgurl101]

see what happened?



life could be worse.



enjoy.
OK! I GET THE POINT!!

[ALVAREZ6]

OK! I GET THE POINT!!
chill out.