Defending Artest and Wells

[timvp]

Has Pop forgotten that Robert Horry is on the team? He needs to be playing in the fourth quarters no matter what kind of lineup the Kings go to.

What doesn't make sense to me is that Pop goes small against the Kings even though Artest and Wells are still on the court. Those guys aren't small and they absolutely destroy Finley, Barry, Bowen, Ginobili or whatever other "small ball" players Pop puts on the floor.

I actually like Duncan and Horry guarding Artest and Wells. If you can turn those two guys into jump shooters, it's a lot better than what they are now. They are scoring easy basket after easy basket. Pop can't go small when Adelman puts Artest at power forward.

I think Pop actually needs to go big against this team to stop their inside play.

How I'd match it up:

Miller/Thomas/SARS -- Rasho
Artest -- Duncan
Wells -- Horry
Martin -- Manu
Bibby -- Parker

Enough of this going super small crap when Sac takes out a big. Artest and Wells are power forwards that look like small forwards. There is a reason that Wells is averaging like 12 boards a game this season verus the Spurs -- they just aren't respecting his game. Put a big on him and he is neutralized.

Does Pop remember what he used to do? He used to put Danny Ferry on Wells and Ferry would own him. Robert Horry can do the same thing.

Time to take Game 4.

Believe.

[Kori Ellis]

Yeah I don't really get it either. Ferry used to be really effective on Bonzi (even before the spitting incident). So I don't get why he doesn't stick Horry on him. And if Pop doesn't want to have Duncan/Rasho/Horry on the floor at the same time, then do this ..

Miller guarded by Bowen (Bruce can guard him on the perimeter and front him in the post)
Artest guarded by Duncan
Wells guarded by Horry
Martin guarded by Manu
Bibby guarded by Tony

Artest and Wells need to be guarded by guys that are bigger than them.

[timvp]

Plus Artest is shooting like 25% on jumpers since he hurt his thumb. In the playoffs, all he's done is bully smaller players to the rim.

Time to adjust.

[Nikos]

Imagine if the team had Hedo Turkoglu.

[Obstructed_View]

I guess I've been watching a different series, because Duncan has not been able to stop Artest or Wells with any regularity, and I would consider Duncan a "big". Artest is as quick as Bowen, and stronger than Duncan. If you put Horry and Duncan on Artest and Wells, they don't become jump shooters, they become guys who dribble around their defenders and score.

[ducks]

pop needs to study film
kori needs to ask pop this question

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

The only thing is if you put Duncan on Artest then he's got to play off of him. All Artest is doing against the Spurs is putting his head down and going to the rack.

I agree about Horry on Wells, it pisses me off to no end watching Pop trying to do this whole small ball shit on them. Small ball didn't work in the regular season, not sure why he thinks it's going to start working now.

[spurster]

I've been wondering where Horry's been hiding, too. I like Kori's idea.

[timvp]

I guess I've been watching a different series, because Duncan has not been able to stop Artest or Wells with any regularity, and I would consider Duncan a "big". Artest is as quick as Bowen, and stronger than Duncan. If you put Horry and Duncan on Bibby and Wells, they don't become jump shooters, they become guys who dribble around their defenders and score.

You mean Artest and Wells, I assume.

Do you remember the Spurs guarding Wells with Ferry? Ferry was slower than Duncan or Artest.

Duncan just needs to give them some room and make them shoot jumpers with a hand in their face. I'd take Artest and Wells shooting over Duncan all day compared to laying it up over Finley/Manu/Barry/Bowen.

[ducks]

small ball worked some but not against the kings

[timvp]

The only thing is if you put Duncan on Artest then he's got to play off of him. All Artest is doing against the Spurs is putting his head down and going to the rack.

I agree about Horry on Wells, it pisses me off to no end watching Pop trying to do this whole small ball shit on them. Small ball didn't work in the regular season, not sure why he thinks it's going to start working now.

I like small ball ... when the other team goes small. Miller, Artest, Wells, Martin and Bibby aren't small.

That's three power forwards on the court.

[ShoogarBear]

The only problem with this is I haven't seen that Duncan is able to stop any bigs off the dribble, so if he picked up Artest too far away from the basket I doubt he could stop him, nad maybe just get into foul trouble.

The positive of this is that the Kings would probable stop their offense just to run isos of Artest against Tim, and that could screw them up.

[whottt]

I did see Horry pulling some minutes on Artest last night. They were limited minutes and Horry didn't stay in the game long but it seemed to work. He looked pretty effective but slow. Not as slow as Ferry...but Artest is pretty fast.

Horry hasn't been getting many minutes and I am trying to figure out why...it's not just because Sac is playing small...because Nazr and Rasho are getting some healthy minutes. Horry should be getting some of their minutes when Sac is playing small, not having his own minutes cut . My guess is that Pop wants rebounding and maybe he feels Nazr and Rasho are better options for that.

Anyway, something definitely needs to be done...I think, with Bonzi, it was kind of a case of the Spurs hoping he was the Memphis Bonzi and not the Portland Bonzi...our worst fears are realized because he's turned the clock back and is playing like Portland Bonzi now...I figure Pop will have this figured out by the next game, and I think Horry will be getting more minutes on either Bonzi or Artest.

At the very least Horry needs to be on the court because he can erase stupid plays by other players and doesn't make any himself...

And his rebounding is a clutch as the rest of his game...when he needs to be a bigtime rebounder he can do it...so I hope the Spurs do realize that.

[CosmicCowboy]

Has Pop forgotten that Robert Horry is on the team? He needs to be playing in the fourth quarters no matter what kind of lineup the Kings go to.

What doesn't make sense to me is that Pop goes small against the Kings even though Artest and Wells are still on the court. Those guys aren't small and they absolutely destroy Finley, Barry, Bowen, Ginobili or whatever other "small ball" players Pop puts on the floor.

I actually like Duncan and Horry guarding Artest and Wells. If you can turn those two guys into jump shooters, it's a lot better than what they are now. They are scoring easy basket after easy basket. Pop can't go small when Adelman puts Artest at power forward.

I think Pop actually needs to go big against this team to stop their inside play.

How I'd match it up:

Miller/Thomas/SARS -- Rasho
Artest -- Duncan
Wells -- Horry
Martin -- Manu
Bibby -- Parker

Enough of this going super small crap when Sac takes out a big. Artest and Wells are power forwards that look like small forwards. There is a reason that Wells is averaging like 12 boards a game this season verus the Spurs -- they just aren't respecting his game. Put a big on him and he is neutralized.

Does Pop remember what he used to do? He used to put Danny Ferry on Wells and Ferry would own him. Robert Horry can do the same thing.

Time to take Game 4.

Believe.

nice post. Bonzi may be a punkassbitch but he is definitely playing ball this series and Spurs haven't found an answer yet. After game 2 when someone asked the question "when did you know the Spurs would win" I still stick by my answer of "when Bonzi fouled out"...

[Dre_7]

I have said it in countless game blog threads this year, and I will say it again, I HATE THE SMALL LINEUP!!!!!!!!!

[Kori Ellis]

The small lineup is actually effective in the right situation. But it's not effective when the Artest/Wells bulls are on the floor.

[E20]

The small lineup is actually effective in the right situation. But it's not effective when the Artest/Wells bulls are on the floor.
That's only for a limited time. Ron Artest and Bonzi Wells are averaging 40 Minutes per Game. Pop should stick to the regular lineup of:
C
PF
SF
SG
G

Throughout the whole game.

[Obstructed_View]

You mean Artest and Wells, I assume.

Do you remember the Spurs guarding Wells with Ferry? Ferry was slower than Duncan or Artest.

Duncan just needs to give them some room and make them shoot jumpers with a hand in their face. I'd take Artest and Wells shooting over Duncan all day compared to laying it up over Finley/Manu/Barry/Bowen.
You must have read my post the same time I did, because I fixed it as soon as I posted it.

Ferry may have been slower than Duncan or Artest, but he's quicker than Horry. Any success Ferry might have had in a regular season game has little bearing now. The reason Bonzi moves from team to team is because when he's not interested he's not a good player. He's interested. It'll take a hell of a lot more from the Spurs than just putting a big guy on him and hoping he stands there and jacks up shots from the perimeter.

What the Spurs probably ought to do is keep their centers in the game and make the Finley/Manu/Barry/Bowen defenders funnel them to the shot blockers. Shocking, I know, but it was a good defensive strategy at one time. I certainly wouldn't take my centers out and put my two power forwards outside the paint guarding smaller, quicker guys.

[whottt]

You must have read my post the same time I did, because I fixed it as soon as I posted it.

Ferry may have been slower than Duncan or Artest, but he's quicker than Horry. .

Uh no...on Horry's slowest day in the NBA he is faster than Ferry was on his fastest...His hands are faster, his feet are faster, he moves faster and his reflexes are faster...But what Ferry was that Horry isn't was physical. Ferry would get into his opponents body and annoy the living crap out of them(he also used to do this to Horry by the way, does anyone remember Horry swiping at Ferry in 02?). Horry is not that physical...and that's probably the only thing Ferry did better than Horry.

No matter what, Horry and his 6 rings need to be on the court when it's winning time.

[CosmicCowboy]

The reason Bonzi moves from team to team is because when he's not interested he's not a good player. He's interested. It'll take a hell of a lot more from the Spurs than just putting a big guy on him and hoping he stands there and jacks up shots from the perimeter.

That was very fucking profound. I have watched Bonzi since he was at Portland and he can be a hell of a player when he wants to be. You are right. He's interested this series.

[Obstructed_View]

Uh no...on Horry's slowest day in the NBA he is faster than Ferry was on his fastest...His hands are faster, his feet are faster, he moves faster and his reflexes are faster...But what Ferry was that Horry isn't was physical. Ferry would get into his opponents body and annoy the living crap out of them(he also used to do this to Horry by the way, does anyone remember Horry swiping at Ferry in 02?). Horry is not that physical...and that's probably the only thing Ferry did better than Horry.

No matter what, Horry and his 6 rings need to be on the court when it's winning time.

I agree with almost all of that post. We'll leave the part about Ferry guarding Jordan in the playoffs for another day. The thing to remember is that right now is Horry's slowest day. He might be quick in stretches but he has very bad knees. Also, the first round is not winning time. If you grind a commodity like Horry down in the first round you aren't going to beat the Mavs, let alone win a championship.

The Spurs lost the game on a bad turnover and a lucky layup at the buzzer. Horry would not have changed any of that one bit, and Wells wouldn't have had any problem abusing Horry straight up. If the Spurs aren't going to play their base defense against the Kings, they are going to do things to try to confuse Bonzi. I agree that if you had Ferry you could probably just get him to throw a punch and get ejected. That's not going to happen here.

[timvp]

Horry in the game to guard Artest or Wells is such a no-brainer. This is the playoffs. He is Robert Horry. For those who haven't been paying attention, that is a good match.

I bet if Horry was in the game he would have blocked Kevin Martin and the Spurs would be going for the sweep on Sunday. Horry is a basketball genius and one of the clutchest shooters ever.

Play him.

[timvp]

I agree with almost all of that post. The thing to remember is that right now is Horry's slowest day. He might be quick in stretches but he has very bad knees.

Now he's just making stuff up :lol

[CosmicCowboy]

Horry in the game to guard Artest or Wells is such a no-brainer. This is the playoffs. He is Robert Horry. For those who haven't been paying attention, that is a good match.

I bet if Horry was in the game he would have blocked Kevin Martin and the Spurs would be going for the sweep on Sunday. Horry is a basketball genius and one of the clutchest shooters ever.

Play him.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

LJ...

Tim Fucking Duncan was all over LitlKMarts ass and the shot still went in.

I know you are just trolling but BigShotRob wouldn't have changed the ending on game 3.

[Obstructed_View]

Now he's just making stuff up :lol
Horry doesn't have bad knees? You are the one that made him a shot blocker.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't know if Horry would have mattered at the end of Game 3. But I do know that he's the most logical matchup on Bonzi.

[Kori Ellis]

Horry doesn't have bad knees? You are the one that made him a shot blocker.

He has bad knees??

His only health problems have been abdomen and hip this season, right?

[timvp]

Horry makes big plays at the end of games to win. That's what he does.

Horry somehow would have saved Manu on that play.

[T Park]

Horry can actually jump higher than duncan.

Thats a freakin fact.

[Obstructed_View]

He has bad knees??

His only health problems have been abdomen and hip this season, right?
Are you guys kidding me here? His only injuries might be his abdomen and hip, but he's a six foot ten inch 35 year old professional athlete. Don't you wonder why he doesn't jump out of the building like he did when he was with the Rockets? He can still do it, but just not as much. Robert Horry has had bad knees for years. So do most 35 year old NBA players. Using him up in the first round is almost as stupid as saying he's a better defender than Duncan.

[T Park]

he wouldve gotten the ball from Manu made the three and be fouled on top of it.

Does pop forget this guy beat the Kings single handidly many a times too>

[Kori Ellis]

Are you guys kidding me here? His only injuries might be his abdomen and hip, but he's a six foot ten inch 35 year old professional athlete. Don't you wonder why he doesn't jump out of the building like he did when he was with the Rockets? Robert Horry has had bad knees for years. So do most 35 year old NBA players. Using him up in the first round is almost as stupid as saying he's a better defender than Duncan.

No one is advocating using him up. We are talking about using him more often (particularly in 4th quarters).

Does Bruce Bowen have bad knees too?

(I never/very, very rarely see Bruce or Robert icing their knees after games -- while many of the younger players plus NVE do every game)

[Obstructed_View]

No one is advocating using him up. We are talking about using him more often (particularly in 4th quarters).
At least one person in here seems to be advocating Horry being in instead of Duncan at the end of the game, and that will use him up. My point was simply if you are going to have Horry chasing smaller, quicker guys during the 4th quarter starting in the first round, that asset will not be available to you against better teams, when you might actually need him.

[whottt]

Are you guys kidding me here? His only injuries might be his abdomen and hip, but he's a six foot ten inch 35 year old professional athlete. Don't you wonder why he doesn't jump out of the building like he did when he was with the Rockets? He can still do it, but just not as much.

Actually he didn't do it that much with the Rockets either...

Horry doesn't do much of anything until it's the final 5 minutes of an important game...then he puts on his cape and turns into one of the best players to ever step foot on a basketball court...This is the essense of Robert Horry, this has always been the essence of Robert Horry...

This is why he alway gets forgotten about in crucial moments...this is why he gets traded and let go(to the title ending misfortune of his past teams).


Horry = Deception

He always looks like he's not paying attention, or like he's not moving well, and often like he doesn't care...And he has always looked like he's in pain when he walks...


Robert Horry has had bad knees for years. So do most 35 year old NBA players. Using him up in the first round is almost as stupid as saying he's a better defender than Duncan.


I've never heard of Horry having any kind of knee problems...he's had that stifflegged gimp in his walk/run since he was a rookie...it's just the way he moves. I remember him coming out of nowhere and jumping out of the gym last year in a double OT game against the Clips for the winning block, I think on Shaun Livingston or maybe Kayman...that's probably what TimVP is remembering...

[T Park]

game 5 of last year's finals is an excellent example of what whottt says

[Kori Ellis]

At least one person in here seems to be advocating Horry being in instead of Duncan at the end of the game, and that will use him up. My point was simply if you are going to have Horry chasing smaller, quicker guys during the 4th quarter starting in the first round, that asset will not be available to you against better teams, when you might actually need him.

Well last year, Horry played ~25mpg in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs and then 28-30mpg in the last two rounds. So far in these 3 games against the Kings, he's averaging about 16mpg.

So I think using him a little more often right now isn't going to hurt.

(By the way, who said to use him in the game instead of Duncan?)

[timvp]

At least one person in here seems to be advocating Horry being in instead of Duncan at the end of the game, and that will use him up.

Wha?

[Obstructed_View]

Wha?

I bet if Horry was in the game he would have blocked Kevin Martin and the Spurs would be going for the sweep on Sunday. Horry is a basketball genius and one of the clutchest shooters ever.

You didn't write the above?

[Obstructed_View]

Well last year, Horry played ~25mpg in the first 2 rounds of the playoffs and then 28-30mpg in the last two rounds. So far in these 3 games against the Kings, he's averaging about 16mpg.

So I think using him a little more often right now isn't going to hurt.

(By the way, who said to use him in the game instead of Duncan?)
Putting Horry in the game and saying, "Here Rob. Stand on the three point line and shoot it in" vs. putting him in and saying "Here Rob. Guard a guy five inches shorter and five years younger for the fourth quarter. There's nobody behind you to block shots, so chase him around." are not the same kind of minutes, although they might look the same on a box score.

[timvp]

He always looks like he's not paying attention, or like he's not moving well, and often like he doesn't care...And he has always looked like he's in pain when he walks...

Yep.

Horry likes to look hurt ... then he'll rip your heart out.

Just like Jim Brown used to do :smokin


I remember him coming out of nowhere and jumping out of the gym last year in a double OT game against the Clips for the winning block, I think on Shaun Livingston or maybe Kayman...that's probably what TimVP is remembering...

It was Mikki Moore. Horry had no business blocking that shot.

Horry just knows how to win games. He'll make the play to help you win, whether it's scoring, rebounding, drawing a charge, blocking a shot or whatever is needed.

[T Park]

nowhere does it say there Id rather have him in there than Duncan.

Dude you been drinkin?

[timvp]

You didn't write the above?

Did you miss the part where I said I wanted Rasho, Duncan and Horry in the game?

[spurster]

But what Ferry was that Horry isn't was physical. Ferry would get into his opponents body and annoy the living crap out of them(he also used to do this to Horry by the way, does anyone remember Horry swiping at Ferry in 02?). Horry is not that physical...and that's probably the only thing Ferry did better than Horry.

My dream matchup is Ferry on Artest.

[Obstructed_View]

Did you miss the part where I said I wanted Rasho, Duncan and Horry in the game?
But Duncan and Parker were the only ones in any position to make a play on Martin at the end. How would Horry have blocked the shot if he hadn't been in Duncan's spot? Is he the fastest guy in the NBA now too, in addition to being this defensive juggernaut?

[timvp]

But Duncan and Parker were the only ones in any position to make a play on Martin at the end. How would Horry have blocked the shot if he hadn't been in Duncan's spot? Is he the fastest guy in the NBA now too, in addition to being this defensive juggernaut?

Horry would have been in Parker's spot on the perimeter.

You don't think Horry makes plays to win games?

[Obstructed_View]

Horry would have been in Parker's spot on the perimeter.

You don't think Horry makes plays to win games?
Are you saying that you don't think Duncan does?

[timvp]

Are you saying that you don't think Duncan does?

:bang

[Fabbs]

Plus Artest is shooting like 25% on jumpers since he hurt his thumb. In the playoffs, all he's done is bully smaller players to the rim.

Time to adjust.

:worthy:
Also the idea to get Horry in on D.

[Obstructed_View]

:bang
Actually, forget it. The lineup you suggested in your first post didn't have Finley. No Finley three, the Spurs lose the game anyway. You can "what if" about Horry to your heart's content. Maybe Mavsfan will join you to compare him to Devin Harris. The only games greater than the ones they are actually in are the ones they miss.

[ploto]

I recall Horry covering Wells a little in this series and not being particularly any more effective.

As for minutes, seems to me Pop has really decided each game to play those players whom he believes are playing the best- as clearly evidenced by Beno's play last game.

The person taking those fourth quarter minutes from Horry is actually Brent Barry a lot of the time.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Are you saying that you don't think Duncan does?

Duncan does, but as far as blocking shots go, Horry gets up about six inches higher than TD. Damn you're a fucking idiot.

[T Park]

God Obstructed, you wouldn't want the clutchest shooter in basketball history in there? Who can JUMP higher than Duncan?!?!

Hell David Robinson with an enflicted back could freakin jump higher.

[MannyIsGod]

Timvp understands the game better than most could ever dream of.

One thing of note that was touched on but not really talked about was the job Rasho did on defense in the game last night. He absolutely shut down SAR when he was on him. He didn't allow him into the paint and was actually moving his feet well enough to keep him out of the lane as well.

Unless Nazr comes out on fire, I think Rasho has earned himself some playing time because of these matchups. Nazr hasnt' been able to do a damn thing and Rasho is even outworking him on the glass at the moment. And when Rasho has an edge on the glass, it is debateable whether or not Nazr deserves ANY playing time because Rasho has the edge on defense and its a wash at best on offense.

The Spurs need rebounding a great deal at the moment. Bonzi is killing them on the offensive glass and that was a HUGE reason why they have been able to compete in the past 2 games. If you keep him off the glass the games aren't even close. I think thats the biggest key to the game. And while Horry may not be a good rebounder in most situations, I think if his assignment was to keep Bonzi off the glass he has the stength and quickness to do it.

It isn't so much keeping Bonzi from scoring off isolations, its keeping him from getting second chance points.

[cs100]

We had a better FG% shooting than the Kings. The biggest difference is that both Artest and Wells grabbed 26 rebounds and the entire Spurs team grabbed 39. We need to be able to box them out and win the rebounding battle. It doesn't matter who guards them if we can get the rebound advantage.

and we should really really keep those turnovers down. :rolleyes

[jcrod]

:wtf

I don't think putting Horry at the three would work. I agree on not going small, but going too big is just as much a mistake. Horry makes clutch shots, but he sucks on defense and boards.

I would rather see Rasho/Horry, TD, Bowen/Fin, Manu and Tony. Depending on the score. Manu, Fin and Bowen just need to box out.

People act like the Spurs are down on this series. They'll win without having to put gimick lineups out there.

[J.T.]

Horry got some sweet blocks last season when Duncan was out with the ankle injury. To say Horry is not a good shot blocker is just fucking retarded. If he was in the game he would've mosdef blocked that shit. Or at least taken a bite out of Martin's elbow on his way to the hoop, altering the shot.

And yeah, force Artest to take jumpers. I play street ball all the time and fractured a finger once. I couldn't hit anything but layups.

[timvp]

Horry makes clutch shots, but he sucks on defense and boards.

Hopefully this is a joke. Horry averaged the third most rebounds per minute on this team in the regular season and is a very good post defender. Other than a healthy Tim, nobody guards the block better. He's also a masterful help defender and even an average perimeter defender. All around, I'd rank him just behind Duncan and Bowen as the best defender on the team.

[RON ARTEST]

i dont agree about putting bigs on bonzi and Artest. when horry or duncan were guarding Artest he was just going right by them and getting three point plays. they are to strong for finley,bowen and manu and to quick for rasho nazr horry and duncan.

[timvp]

Put bigs on them and play off of them. Make Artest and Wells beat you with jumpers.

They can't.

[Kori Ellis]

i dont agree about putting bigs on bonzi and Artest. when horry or duncan were guarding Artest he was just going right by them and getting three point plays. they are to strong for finley,bowen and manu and to quick for rasho nazr horry and duncan.

So who should guard them, the point guards? :)

[jcrod]

No joke he use to be, but not anymore. He always getting beat when someone posts him up. He still an ok weak side defender, but he's a shell of himself on defense.

Per 48 min he's ranked 6. Fabio and Marks pull more rebs per 48 than Horry

[Kori Ellis]

No joke he use to be, but not anymore. He always getting beat when someone posts him up. He still an ok weak side defender, but he's a shell of himself on defense.

Per 48 min he's ranked 6. Fabio and Marks pull more rebs per 48 than Horry


:lol You can't count Fabio and Marks for anything. They don't play enough minutes to make per 48 mean anything.

When did Horry become a shell of himself anyway?
He just started playing last week or so. :lol He doesn't play hard during the regular season.

[timvp]

Duncan
Mohammed
Fabio
Marks
Sanders
Horry

Horry is third out of the NBA players :)

[jcrod]

Yeah its funny, he's not a good rebounder. We all know Rasho sucks and they both avg the same per 48. Is that better?

[timvp]

No joke he use to be, but not anymore.

Since when? Last playoffs? This season?

Enlighten me.

[polandprzem]

Put bigs on them and play off of them. Make Artest and Wells beat you with jumpers.

They can't.

They can. But it's a matter how much can they be consistent on them. (plus you've got Bibby.)

[timvp]

Yeah its funny, he's not a good rebounder. We all know Rasho sucks and they both avg the same per 48. Is that better?

Rasho is a center. Horry is a power forward. If Horry averages the same, that's a good clip.

[Kori Ellis]

Horry averaged 5 and half boards per game last post season. I don't understand how that's a bad rebounder.

[jcrod]

Shit just watch, he's not what he use to be. Show me a good defense game this playoffs from Horry, and we'll wait till the playoffs finish.

[Kori Ellis]

Shit just watch, he's not what he use to be. Show me a good defense game this playoffs from Horry, and we'll wait till the playoffs finish.

So basically you are saying that he lost it some time between last postseason and this postseason, right?

[jcrod]

Look I agree he should be out there more, just not at the three. He's just savy and makes plays when it counts, but to say he can guard 3's is funny.

[Kori Ellis]

Look I agree he should be out there more, just not at the three. He's just savy and makes plays when it counts, but to say he can guard 3's is funny.

We aren't saying he can guard all 3's. We are saying he can guard Bonzi Wells better than anyone else on the team can (or has been).

[timvp]

They can. But it's a matter how much can they be consistent on them. (plus you've got Bibby.)

Artest hasn't been able to shoot since he hurt his thumb against the Suns near the end of the season. For Spurs fans who don't notice, he's sporting a huge brace on his shooting thumb.

He's shooting 33% from the field, less than 30% from beyond the arc and 45% from the free-throw line since hurting his thumb. Let him shoot and make him handle the ball. The only way he's effective right now is driving in on smaller defenders.

[jcrod]

So basically you are saying that he lost it some time between last postseason and this postseason, right?


I guess, but even last playoffs I can't remember a strong defense performance from him. Show me one. When we think of Horry, all you think of is his clutch shot(s). He's not in there for his defense.

[RON ARTEST]

So who should guard them, the point guards? :)
no the point is when they are on their game nobody can guard them. just like nobody can guard duncan. you can make all the adjustments in the world but if you cant stop them you cant stop them. simple as that.

[timvp]

Shit just watch, he's not what he use to be. Show me a good defense game this playoffs from Horry, and we'll wait till the playoffs finish.

Horry has played 50 minutes this playoffs and you are giving up on him?

Nice, I'll be sure to bump this thread.

:smokin

[Kori Ellis]

no the point is when they are on their game nobody can guard them. just like nobody can guard duncan. you can make all the adjustments in the world but if you cant stop them you cant stop them. simple as that.

You can't stop them but you can slow them down a lot more. Bonzi doesn't average 20 and 11 and shoot over 53% in the regular season -- which is what the Spurs are giving up right now.

[jcrod]

Horry has played 50 minutes this playoffs and you are giving up on him?

Nice, I'll be sure to bump this thread.

:smokin


Show me where I said I'm giving up on him? I said he's a shell of himself on defense and don't put him at the 3. If you read several post up, you'll see that I said he should play more.

[ploto]

"The Spurs' guards also are going to have to refocus their efforts on keeping Bonzi Wells and Ron Artest off the boards. Thanks largely to Duncan's help-side defense, the Spurs did a better job of double-teaming Wells and Artest on Friday, but the two still combined for 26 rebounds."

When the Spurs perimeter players focus more effort on rebounding, that is usually the big difference. I expect to see lots of work for rebounds from Bowen, Finley, Manu, and Barry tonight. It is something the team has talked about all season.

[td4mvp21]

All Pop needs to do is have two big men at least out on the floor.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I agree with timvp i saiddd except i think we should also not play manu at the end of the game

[boutons_]

"two big men"

.... which excludes Nazr, who's tall but plays defense so badly, he plays like he was 5'10".

I bet Fabricio would relish the challenge of getting in Bonzi's way.

Robert, Fabricio, Rasho, Sean, but no Nazr.

[picnroll]

Nocioni putting up another nice game against the Heat. He sure would have come in handy against Bonzi and Artest. The Spurs' scout that screwed up on his birthday should be hunted down and shot. :depressed

[timvp]

Nocioni putting up another nice game against the Heat. He sure would have come in handy against Bonzi and Artest. The Spurs' scout that screwed up on his birthday should be hunted down and shot. :depressed

:tu

It's also another example of why this team desperately needs a long three. In today's NBA, you are going to run into horrible matchup like these if you don't have a 6'8-6'10 small forward.

[T Park]

Too bad there are none that are worth a crap that are available.

[MannyIsGod]

What I don't get about what Juan is saying is that we don't need Horry to go out there and play like Bowen. We don't need a smothering defense all over Bonzi in order to keep him from lighting us up. We don't need Horry to be some grand defensive stopper that he obviously can't be right now.

What we need him to do is provide long arms and height. Guess what, Horry still has that. As long as he can focus to keep Bonzi out of the paint then we'll be set with that matchup. Bonzi isn't outquicking people, he's out muscling people. Thats always been the hardest part of his game to stop because Wells is so damn strong for a 2/3.

I don't understand how anyone can say he's a shell of anything. What you would base that on is beyond me, but either way he just needs to be long and tall so that he can box out and provide a bigger hurdle for Wells.

KEEP WELLS OFF THE GLASS.

[spurster]

The Spurs needs to have some form of a matchup zone. There's no need to have a big guarding Miller on the perimeter.

[MannyIsGod]

The Spurs needs to have some form of a matchup zone. There's no need to have a big guarding Miller on the perimeter.No way. Zones - even matchup zones - lead to horrible defensive rebounding. Thats whats killing them at the moment!

[spurster]

Well, having Tim Duncan defend Miller on the perimeter doesn't help the rebounding much either.

Whoever you assign the bigs to, the Kings can put those players on the perimeter and isolate on bad matchups in the post. A matchup zone is one way to avoid this.

[FromWayDowntown]

"The Spurs' guards also are going to have to refocus their efforts on keeping Bonzi Wells and Ron Artest off the boards. Thanks largely to Duncan's help-side defense, the Spurs did a better job of double-teaming Wells and Artest on Friday, but the two still combined for 26 rebounds."

When the Spurs perimeter players focus more effort on rebounding, that is usually the big difference. I expect to see lots of work for rebounds from Bowen, Finley, Manu, and Barry tonight. It is something the team has talked about all season.

It's not just rebounding -- 26 rebounds is a lot, sure, but 13 offensive rebounds (including 10 offensive boards for Wells) by those two is ridiculous. Those two didn't shoot the ball very well in Game 3, and sitting there live, I thought the Spurs did a good job (largely) playing defense. Where they got hammered was the second chances that Wells and Artest created.

Actually, I thought Mike Finley did a great job on Artest for the most part -- except on Artest's last two baskets. Finley stayed in front and denied penetration until those two possessions. Then, for whatever reason, he gave Artest the inside (perhaps expecting help?) and Artest beat the Spurs to the rim for easy shots. Finley has the speed and bulk to hang with Artest if he can keep his head and play good positional defense.

I noted the few possessions when Pop played Horry and Duncan on Artest and that certainly did seem to be a promising matchup as well. I'd have a concern about doing that too often with Duncan, because Adelman's easy fix would be to lift Artest and post Wells without the threat of a double by a shot blocker. If you're going to play Artest with a player bigger than Finley, Horry is the much better choice.

Pop also used Barry on Wells at points and gave him double-team help; the double, along with Barry's length, seemed to give Bonzi some problems.

Bruce Bowen's lack of physical strength seems to be turning him into a non-factor in the series.

[NASpurs]

Small lineup is not working right now!

[Cant_Be_Faded]

So much for that idea. Genius Pop does it again.

[texbumTHElife]

I was thinking maybe a 2-1-2 zone? Keep our bigs down low to defend the post and our guards on the wings and quit getting murdered by the pick and roll.

[leemajors]

zone periodically may help, it's not like our rebounding could be any worse!

[LilMissSPURfect]

We need that Real SPURS to show the hell up!.
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..
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.
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and less of BONZI ;-)!

[4001 STEREO SPUR]

I was thinking maybe a 2-1-2 zone? Keep our bigs down low to defend the post and our guards on the wings and quit getting murdered by the pick and roll.

Yeah. Do you think that could stop Bonzi?........ and maybe we could get some rebounds then?

[polandprzem]

Yeah. Do you think that could stop Bonzi?........ and maybe we could get some rebounds then?

If you are playing Euopean zone - yes

[E20]

Well, Pop put in Horry for a lot this game, he was energitic and looked ready to play, but today's problem was that every Spur sucked major balls and looked like they didn't know the fundamentals of rebounding.

[SA Gunslinger]

Kenny Smith brought up an interesting point. He said normally the Spurs don't double team. Everytime Wells or Artest would begin to post up, the Spurs would send the double team. When the ball is rotated to the open shooter, it seemed like two Spur defenders would be closing out on the shooter as if they were confused about their responsibility. The defensive rotation was terrible.

Also, I can't remember seeing so many double teams by the Spurs since the Laker/Shaq days. They didn't double Shaq everytime but that seemed like a lot compared to how the Spurs normally play defense up until last night.

[timvp]

What pisses me off is Pop went to Horry on Wells for a stretch in the second quarter ... and then we never saw it again. With Horry on Wells, Wells went out of the paint and camped in the corner. He didn't get any offensive rebounds. He didn't muscle around a smaller Spurs player in the paint. He didn't do anything.

Then Pop takes out Horry to play "small ball" and the freaking dam explodes in his face and the Spurs are down a dozen at halftime. WTF is Pop thinking? The Spurs were actually ahead with Horry guarding Wells.

Then Pop decided to put Brent Barry at power forward :pctoss :pctoss

[lakersfan]

there is no spur player to stop wells or artest they r too good for the spurs the only good player in the spurs is horry.

[Que Gee]

Tim will guard Bonzi next game, Rasho on Miller...

[tlongII]

What pisses me off is Pop went to Horry on Wells for a stretch in the second quarter ... and then we never saw it again. With Horry on Wells, Wells went out of the paint and camped in the corner. He didn't get any offensive rebounds. He didn't muscle around a smaller Spurs player in the paint. He didn't do anything.

Then Pop takes out Horry to play "small ball" and the freaking dam explodes in his face and the Spurs are down a dozen at halftime. WTF is Pop thinking? The Spurs were actually ahead with Horry guarding Wells.

Then Pop decided to put Brent Barry at power forward :pctoss :pctoss

This is the answer. The Spurs need to sit Bowen on his ass as he provides nothing against the Kings. I don't know if Horry can handle the minutes, but you need him in there for the majority of the game.

[timvp]

Tim will guard Bonzi next game, Rasho on Miller...

That's a better idea than what is happening now. Tim could guard Bonzi better than anyone on the team outside of Horry.

[spur219]

Horry would be a nice solution for Wells. But only for a short period of time. Simply for the fact that Horry does not have the legs and the lateral quickness to keep up with Wells. Wells has a very quick first step. And as for as Duncan on Artest. That matchup might cause Duncan to be in early foul trouble. Artest loves to play agressive and drive in the lane.

I really see no solution but hope Bowen, Manu, and Finley find a solution to guarding them. My problem is that they are letting Wells get the ball to easy and I see no denying the ball defense on him nor Artest. They need to move Wells and make him get the ball where he does not feel comfortable and make him get in awkward positions he is not used to. Also will someone box him out. The guy gets so many offensive rebounds it's unbelievable.

[jcrod]

What pisses me off is Pop went to Horry on Wells for a stretch in the second quarter ... and then we never saw it again. With Horry on Wells, Wells went out of the paint and camped in the corner. He didn't get any offensive rebounds. He didn't muscle around a smaller Spurs player in the paint. He didn't do anything.

Then Pop takes out Horry to play "small ball" and the freaking dam explodes in his face and the Spurs are down a dozen at halftime. WTF is Pop thinking? The Spurs were actually ahead with Horry guarding Wells.

Then Pop decided to put Brent Barry at power forward :pctoss :pctoss


In that time frame I remember Bonzi scoring twice on Horry and blowing pass him for an easy layup. He also grabbed an offense rebound on him. But it was limited and I can't base that on how well he would do on him.

I do think he needs to stick with Horry or even freaking Fabio at the 4 when they go small. We should be dominating with our bigs and its sad to see this shit.

[MoSpur]

Pop has been outcoached since game two. Face it. If not for Barry's bounce, the Spurs would be facing elimination. He needs to counter Adelman's lineup. Plain and simple. The Spurs have been predictable as of late. I hate saying things like this because I love this team, but its true.

[spur219]

Pop has to read up on Nash's Equilibrium. That might help him. It talks about how he needs to strategize but realizing that the opponent is also strategizing. So Pop needs to strategize and adjust to Adelman's strategy.

[MoSpur]

Adelman is doing a good job on trying to figure out how to expose the Spurs' weaknesses. Pop needs to understand how to counter attack. He did go to the Air Force didn't he?

[timvp]

In that time frame I remember Bonzi scoring twice on Horry and blowing pass him for an easy layup. He also grabbed an offense rebound on him.

That wasn't when Horry was guarding Wells. The play you are thinking about was when Finley was guarding Wells and Horry came over for help but it was too late.

[redman]

Well, I don't think anyone knows what to do about the Kings! They are such a surprise this year, and have lots of hidden talent. Look, the Spurs are getting old and it's showing. No one ever dreamed they (Kings) would win 2 in a row, and almost won the 2nd game. Wells and Artest are out doing everyone POP puts on the floor. Look at the STATS!!!

[Que Gee]

That's a better idea than what is happening now. Tim could guard Bonzi better than anyone on the team outside of Horry.

It was supposed to happen last night....for whatever reason it didn't.

[redman]

Look, Artest was shooting fine last night, look again. 3 pointer, lots of jump shots, some lay-ins. The dude is crazed! How can anyone play against that?

[wildbill2u]

Yeah I don't really get it either. Ferry used to be really effective on Bonzi (even before the spitting incident). So I don't get why he doesn't stick Horry on him. And if Pop doesn't want to have Duncan/Rasho/Horry on the floor at the same time, then do this ..

Miller guarded by Bowen (Bruce can guard him on the perimeter and front him in the post)
Artest guarded by Duncan
Wells guarded by Horry
Martin guarded by Manu
Bibby guarded by Tony

Artest and Wells need to be guarded by guys that are bigger than them.

I'm not convinced that Horry is fast enough to guard Bonzi and he's never been a physical player anyway. Any thoughts on Oberto taking a shot on Bonzi? At the worst, he's got 6 fouls to give.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

I agree that the Spurs need to play their bigs against Sacramento.

Pack the lane and make the Kings beat us from the outside.

Oberto is a good choice to see some action.

I'd play Oberto/Rasho, Nazr/Horry and Duncan at the same time and see how Sacramento counters.

I've lurked the Kings fan forums since they got Artest, and the one thing Sacto fans complain about is how weak their front line is. Instead of playing down to this small-ball Sacto lineup, Pop needs to go big. . .as big as he can and overpower these guys. Bonzi won't get seventeen rebounds on a Nazr/Duncan/Oberto front line or a Rasho/Duncan/Horry front line.

Let's make Sacto beat us with their jump shooters and deny them the offensive glass.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Then Pop takes out Horry to play "small ball" and the freaking dam explodes in his face and the Spurs are down a dozen at halftime. WTF is Pop thinking? The Spurs were actually ahead with Horry guarding Wells.

Then Pop decided to put Brent Barry at power forward

What? :wow Criticism of Pop by LJ? Holy crap, the world is ending!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

BTW, I agree with you LJ. I've been critical of Pop before (understatement, I know) but this small ball shit when Sacramento is trotting out Bonzi and Artest is one of the all-time stupid coaching moves in Pop's career.

Sadly he probably won't adjust, we'll lose this series, and he'll trade some guys who 'didn't step up.'

[Slinkyman]

The playoffs are about match ups, you hear that all the time and it's true. Pop is playing right into the kings hands by going small when he needs to exploit that advantage by staying big.

If the kings put bonzi wells at PF, who guards Tim? bonzi wells? If thats the case throw it to Tim every time, look what kwame brown is doing against PHX's small line up and imagine what Tim could do!

[E20]

I got it!

Lineup:
PG: Tim Duncan
SG: Rasho
SF: Nazr
PF: Horry
C: Marks/Oberto

Game Over. :smokin

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Spurs are treading dangerous ground..

[vsnba]

why spurs not playing Zone defence once in while

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Zone defense is exactly what we need to do if we want to lose 4 straight games

[vsnba]

last games Duncan was playing good they should have given more touches to Duncan

[Cant_Be_Faded]

we can give duncan all the touches in the world, but if we keep giving up Offensive Rebounds to bonzi fucking wells and let Artest get layups, they're a lost cause


the issue here is defense

Bonzi and Artest both hit their outside shots last game too. Not looking good.