Changing of the forward? [Archive] - SpursTalk.com Forums

timvp

10-06-2004, 02:45 PM

Though this may seem like it is coming out of left field, I think the Spurs should strongly consider replacing Bruce Bowen in the starting lineup with Devin Brown. I love what Bowen brings to the table but I believe the team would function better with Brown beginning games as the small forward.

And before you think I’m crazy, Pop and his coaching staff have given no indication that Bowen’s starting job is safe. Though this is probably just to promote competitiveness in camp, it’s a rather telling shift from years past. In the past three seasons, it has always been a no-brainer that Bowen will start. This year? Not so much, if I am reading between the lines correctly.

The move not only makes sense, but I believe it would make the team that much better. Brown is a better running mate for Tony Parker and Manu Ginobili in the starting lineup. Those three can slash, create and cause havoc. Surround Tim Duncan with three players who can fly and create their own shot and the Spurs would have no problem scoring points.

Bowen off the bench would still be rather useful. He could come in and solve any matchup problem on the perimeter. Whether it’s a point guard, shooting guard or small forward that catches fire, Bowen can come in and shut them down. He’d still play a lot of minutes, but just in a more specialized role.

This move would also solve some the duplicity issues that face the bench as it stands. Right now, there are a bunch of shooting guards and no experienced small forward on the bench. It would be difficult to find minutes for Brown off the bench as Brent Barry will be playing most of the swing position minutes.

If you start Brown, here is how I think the minutes would stack up between the five involved players:

Brown 28
Manu 32
Parker 35
Bowen 25
Barry 24

Another thing to consider is that the Lakers exposed Bowen’s weakness for guarding the top of the key pick-and-roll. After game two, they went to it and Bowen was rendered useless for the rest of the series. If you bring him off the bench, it would be harder for teams to gameplan that same strategy this season.

Of course this move would take a lot of guts for Popovich to make, but we’ve seen him make similar moves. The replacing of Steve Smith with Stephen Jackson, Danny Ferry with Sean Elliott, Terry Porter with Avery Johnson and Manu Ginobili with Hedo Turkoglu come to mind.

Overall, I think it would be a smart move. And if Brown plays exceedingly well in preseason and Bowen struggles at all, I believe Pop will make the right decision.

bigzak25

10-06-2004, 02:53 PM

i'm in the tank with bowen, but i say why not....after seeing dev last year, the kid deserves the chance....and there's plenty of time to make adjustments and see what works and what doesn't.....

the only thing i don't like is that the spurs historically struggle early, and putting dev in the lineup means instant scapegoat....malik, bowen and barry off the bench sounds real good though.....

great idea.

ps, if this comes to fruition, sig update was just in time.... :smokin

Kori Ellis

10-06-2004, 02:54 PM

http://www.fullsportpress.com/booo.png

ducks

10-06-2004, 02:54 PM

I think you try it in the first 20 games and see how it goes.
you would still have enough games to get him confortable

bowen could always play better d in limited minutes(not as tired)
bowen also could play more mintues when he spurs need him against a superstar

Kori Ellis

10-06-2004, 02:57 PM

Brown played well for glimpses last season. He's not even close to being ready to be an NBA starter. Why do you think they sent him to the summer leagues? He needs to improve in a lot of areas and play consistent night in and night out in whatever minutes he gets. He also needs to prove to the coaching staff that he has the kind of dedication to the game that Bowen does.

I'll go the opposite viewpoint on this subject. I say Bowen stays the starter and LJIII ends up getting more backup minutes at the 3 than Devin does by season's end.

Man In Black

10-06-2004, 02:58 PM

Another thing to consider is that the Lakers exposed Bowen’s weakness for guarding the top of the key pick-and-roll. After game two, they went to it and Bowen was rendered useless for the rest of the series. If you bring him off the bench, it would be harder for teams to gameplan that same strategy this season.
In today's Laker practice, for much of the time on the court, they practiced nothing but hi pick & roll. So much so that Laker Announcers are saying that in the 1st 10 games this year's Lakers will have run more P & R set's than in ALL of last year.

They will be looking to post up Kobe more.

timvp

10-06-2004, 02:59 PM

Brown played well for glimpses last season. He's not even close to being ready to be an NBA starter.

Peeps thought I was crazy when I said Brown was an NBA player. What's new? :hat

He needs to improve in a lot of areas and play consistent night in and night out in whatever minutes he gets.

If the Lakers series is any indication, Brown brings it when it's needed. Bowen, on the other hand, was murdered the last four games.

timvp

10-06-2004, 03:01 PM

In today's Laker practice, for much of the time on the court, they practiced nothing but hi pick & roll.

Exactly. I didn't know that but that fits exactly into my point.

The Lakers know they have to go thru the Spurs and now know the weakness. Bowen can't guard that play.

Kori Ellis

10-06-2004, 03:02 PM

We'll see. I love Devin and think that he should somehow get minutes in the deep swingman rotation. But I don't think that one hot series means he's ready for the primetime. I want to see if he can play at smart and at a high-level consistently. I haven't seen that from him.

Jimcs50

10-06-2004, 03:10 PM

Bruce should start against the teams that have great scorers at the 2 and 3.

Marcus Bryant

10-06-2004, 03:10 PM

Interesting thought. My initial reaction is that it would be less than an optimal defensive arrangement. My impression is that though DBrown is listed at 6'5" that his real height is less. Height, of course, is not everything, but it is significant. If you had DBrown playing the 3 on offense and then guarding the 2 on D with Ginobili defending the 3 I could see it.

jcrod

10-06-2004, 03:56 PM

I don't think Bowen is as effective coming off the bench. Most of the teams high scores are starting and if he gets hot, it would be harder for Bowen to shut him down. I also think Brown (or Manu) is too short to consistently guard opposing SF every night. He might be able in spot minutes, but not all night. I really like Johnson size, but this is why I think we needed to bring in another 3 to compete against them. Hope he pans out, because we'll be in trouble if a team goes big.

BigVee

10-06-2004, 04:06 PM

I think timvp makes an excellent case. I would like to see Bowen fresher in the 4th quarter when it is time to lock down the other team defensively. However, my concern would be whether Brown is ready for the added pressure of starting at his age and experience level. Hopefully there will be some experimentation in the pre-season.

Das Texan

10-06-2004, 04:08 PM

it could be just as interesting starting brent barry with parker and manu as well.

FromWayDowntown

10-06-2004, 04:54 PM

My one bone of contention is that Bowen's "ineffectiveness" in defending the high screen-roll came primarily as a result of his inability to fight over the top of screens set by Shaquille O'Neal and Karl Malone.

I thought the Lakers were trying to either spring Kobe or force switches to create a Bryant-Rasho or a Bryant-Duncan matchup on the floor. They were willing to use Malone and O'Neal as the screener because of the benefit of sprining Kobe from Bowen's defense. Because the screeners were those behemoths, any normal-sized NBA player would have been relegated to going under the screen (assuming that the defense didn't switch the play), and ultimately chasing the ball -- not a good strategy. I'm not sure that most teams: (1) have a monsterous big to set that type of screen; (2) are willing to send whatever bigs they have above the circle to set a screen on Bowen; or (3) have a player (like Kobe Bryant) who is capable of repeatedly exploiting the advantage gained by that tactic.

I'm also not sure that Devin is ready to play as a starter in the NBA. He had a nice couple of games against LA in the playoffs, but he was virtually absent in Games 2 and 4 of that series. I'd like to see a bit more consistency out of the kid before I drink the Kool-Aid on the Devin as a starter idea.

Brodels

10-06-2004, 05:04 PM

Insane. There are several problems with starting Brown:

- He's young and inexperienced. We don't know if he's tough enough. He certainly wouldn't add the toughness and consistency that Bowen brings, and those things are sorely needed in a lineup that includes Tony Parker and Rasho. The Spurs don't need more youth in the starting lineup right now.

- It would be a defensive mess. Do you really want DBrown guarding Vince Carter, Kobe Bryant, and Tracy McGrady? He's done O.K. on the defensive end, but by no means is he big time. And unless you want to reduce Manu's minutes even more and render him less effective on the offensive end, you don't want to stick him those assignments. DBrown as your defensive stopper? Unless you want Manu taking the toughest assignments night in and night out, you're insane.

- Knowing the system. Brown, for all his talent, doesn't know when he's supposed to pass and when he's supposed to shoot. I'd rather have Bowen because he knows the system and knows what he's supposed to be doing. He spreads the floor by hitting threes regularly. Could Brown hit those? We hope so. But who knows?

- It would render Bowen ineffective. Why would you want Bowen playing reserve minutes? He would be more likely to match up with bench players, and having Bruce shut down Eric Piatkowski and Steve Smith is an insult to his skills. You would be taking Bruce's biggest strength and making it insignificant. Bowen is most useful when he gets to defend great players. When he's defending reserves, he doesn't really offer much.

- The second unit could be offensively challenged, and Brown's slashing style and athleticism would allow him to create scoring opportunities when the Spurs will need them most. There isn't a shortage of offense in the starting lineup. There is one the bench.

- Put down the crack pipe.

xcoriate

10-06-2004, 05:07 PM

Surround Tim Duncan with three players who can fly and create their own shot and the Spurs would have no problem scoring points.

Didn't they do that at the olympics... It wasn't that succesful.

I'm not entirely convinced Devin is ready to start either, he needs to recieve some more minutes to judge his ability/consistency then maybe its a viable option.

I like the idea of Barry/Manu/Parker thats three playmakers, and barry runs the break pretty well as well.

picnroll

10-06-2004, 05:11 PM

On defense Devin was struggling with Kobe too. In particular Kobe was taking Brown on the blocks and posting him up.

Nobody else in the NBA comes close to Malone in setting a screen and then catching up the defender and dragging him as he rolls to the basket.

This year Bryant is going to be doubled on the ball and denied off the ball. He'll be the focus of every team's defense. Wear him out, force him to take bad shots which he will. That will be the game plan night in, night out against LA. Lakers are a non-factor for the Spurs.

I'd rather see the Spurs come off the bench with a second unit of Brown, Berry and Udrih initially and start Bowen. Second half and end of game would be situational and whose playing well. If Litton is a good defender he might help on some of the bigger players BB has trouble with like James, Artest, Kirilenko at the 3.

SequSpur

10-06-2004, 05:21 PM

Timvp is high.

timvp

10-06-2004, 05:23 PM

- He's young and inexperienced. We don't know if he's tough enough.

He seemed pretty damn tough when he was the only Spur fighting against the Lakers in the playoffs. Bowen didn't look too tough sitting on the bench after being killed by the high pick-and-roll.

- It would be a defensive mess. Do you really want DBrown guarding Vince Carter, Kobe Bryant, and Tracy McGrady?

He guarded Kobe better than Bowen did in the playoffs. Although he is a couple inches shorter, he's thicker and stronger than Bowen. Of course he's not the same defender at the moment, but he isn't shabby either.

You're worried about Vince Carter? :lmao

- Knowing the system. Brown, for all his talent, doesn't know when he's supposed to pass and when he's supposed to shoot.

Bowen knows to shoot because he is wide ass open most of the time while his man is doubling Tim.

- It would render Bowen ineffective. Why would you want Bowen playing reserve minutes?

As I stated in the original posts, you can still play him against the other team's great perimeter players if there seems to be a matchup problem. If there is no matchup problem, this group of starters is far superior.

- The second unit could be offensively challenged, and Brown's slashing style and athleticism would allow him to create scoring opportunities when the Spurs will need them most.

Barry and Beno are both scorers. However, they are both only average defenders ... which is why Bowen off the bench makes even more sense.

- Put down the crack pipe.

Sincerely,

10-10 Start
10 game winning streak
Waive Ron Mercer
Devin Brown is an NBA player
Linton Johnson III for the long three
etc.
etc.

:smokin

picnroll

10-06-2004, 05:32 PM

Udrih will be a better defensive PG than Parker. Book it.

timvp

10-06-2004, 05:34 PM

Udrih will be a better defensive PG than Parker. Book it.

What are you basing that on? Defense is Udrih's weakness as of now.

picnroll

10-06-2004, 05:52 PM

Where did you hear defense was his weakness? That was one of the things Pop complimented him on I thought.

I'm basing it on one summer league game (granted limited and lesser competition), Pop's comments and reports from Chicago. He is stronger and can't be taken to the basket as easily as Parker. He can't be shot over quite as easily. He moved his feet very well in the game I saw, stayed in front of his man. Set up on D, particularly on screens well. He's a much more active off the ball defender than Parker, reading the passing lanes, droped down to double post players and scrape the ball, got three deflections that ended up in poor shots/turnovers/shot clock violations. While playing off the ball he still got back to his man, showing good defensive court awarenes of when to double.

Time will tell but I'll wager vBucks that he's recognized as the better defender of the two by year end excluding injuries.

timvp

10-06-2004, 05:56 PM

Where did you hear defense was his weakness?

Um, I was courtside.

Time will tell but I'll wager vBucks that he's recognized as the better defender of the two by year end excluding injuries.

So far I've learned that with Beno, you can never exclude injuries.

SPURS21

10-06-2004, 06:02 PM

Didn't they do that at the olympics... It wasn't that succesful.

NBA zone defense and international zone is alot different

I don't think Brown is talented enough to start in the L, I don't think he ever will be.

wildbill2u

10-06-2004, 09:15 PM

bigzak25

10-06-2004, 10:39 PM

let me tell you somethin......Pop will always base his lineup based on matchups.....he's that good a coach...power to him....

Bottomline, this team needs another clutch shooter....

lets give Dev first shot to prove his worth......

whottt

10-07-2004, 06:06 AM

I am 100% behind this move...but not just to get Brown playing time. I've been in favor of moving Bruce to the bench since last season. I do not think his ability has diminished, I do not think what happened against LA was a weakness that was discovered in his game.

I think his age and the brutal task he has night in and night out caught up with him, he is 33-34 years old.

Bruce can be effective off the bench, he is very effective off the bench, he was pretty much a bench player prior to coming to the Spurs.

He can have the same type of impact off the bench that any great bench player can have...but from a defensive perspective. He's done it before. Riley was willing to give him a fairly nice contract to do that off the Heat Bench. Bruce really has nothing left to prove as a starter, he doesn't have the offensive game, stats, or superstar qualities to ever win DPOY...but he has proven he can start for an NBA champion, and he has proven he is 1st team All NBA D.

I think it's a good move, I think Devin Brown will flourish with the minutes, I think Bowen will be much more effective(offensively and defensively) at playoff time.

And I don't think Devin's size will be anymore of a problem than Bruce's size was..Bruce is only an inch taller right? Devin will probably be able to match up against guys like Artest a lot better than Bowen. You need to hold the threat of Bowen over Devin's head though...if he lets up on D you don't hesitate to yank him for Bruce, or even start Bruce over him every once in a while.

We'll be much stronger team come playoff time with this move. And I don't think Manu and Barry should start together...We need a proven offensive spark off the bench or else we repeat the Hedo issue from last season and have to fuck around with confidence issues when we are trying to win an NBA title, it has to either be Manu or Barry, since we know they can do it and not flake out over it. Manu deserves to start for this team...he just kicked Pop and Duncan's butts to prove it. I do think Manu and Barry should see a lot of minutes on the floor together though, and I think they will, I think we'll see them running the 1 and 2 together often this season.

Kaster

10-07-2004, 06:14 AM

Brown's weakness is not defense, he's actually a solid on the ball defender and OK help defender. His main weakness is dribbling and passing, not especially good at either. Pretty good shooter, somewhat streaky. Overall, simply not ready to take over Bowen's position, since Bowen is arguably the best perimeter defender in the NBA and still a good shot at the corner three.

But more minutes this year? Absolutely.

polandprzem

10-07-2004, 08:07 AM

If Bruce can be effective of the bench...so can Brown.

Ther is no doubt, we'we got pluses and minuses.
But I'd rather have Brown and Barry destroing the second squad of the others team.
Leave Bowen in what he does best. Slowing down the other teams superstars on guard and small forward positions :)

spurster

10-07-2004, 08:59 AM

Guarding the pick-and-roll was not the major reason for the Spurs downfall. It was because the Spurs couldn't hit an outside shot when they needed to. Of course, that could be viewed as another reason to play Brown more.

I don't see Pop starting Brown over Bowen. Bowen helps set the defensive tone early in the game. Also, it's already a big jump for Brown to be in the main rotation (so we project).

Marcus Bryant

10-07-2004, 09:05 AM

The Spurs lost to the Lakers in no small part because of insufficient frontcourt help for Tim Duncan. And yes, freeing up Bryant with screen rolls was successful for the Lakers as well. As we saw in the 2003 playoffs the Spurs could be successful against the O'Neal-Bryant Lakers whenever Bowen could stay on Bryant for most Laker offensive possessions. The Lakers made a good adjustment in 2004, but that was due to their addition of Evil and of course the Spurs' replacement of DRob and Rose with Radosoft and Horry.

wildbill2u

10-07-2004, 12:16 PM

I keep seeing a lot of posts about how Brown is too inexperienced. May I remind you that this was the same rap against Manu and Parker when they were inserted into the lineup?

You gain experience from playing. I think you can see a lot of good development in Brown and by the end of the season, especially in the playoffs, I thought he was a good contributor.

Whether Brown starts is up to Pop and I believe he will make the right decision. I think we will see a lot of interchanging these players in the 2& 3 slots (Manu, Barry and Brown) when we need shooting.

Spurminator

10-07-2004, 12:49 PM

I'd be open to this as a midseason adjustment, but right now I don't think there's any reason to make a drastic move. I am intrigued by the idea of limiting Bowen's first half minutes to keep him fresh for the fourth quarter.

timvp

10-07-2004, 04:37 PM

Another reason this makes sense is Devin is a much better rebounder than Bowen. Devin, if he starts, can probably go out there and get you six boards a game. With the loss of the 6'10 Hedo from the starting lineup, rebounding will be the one thing they miss. Devin can make that up.

SpursFanInAustin

10-07-2004, 04:38 PM

I don't think Brown is ready to start. Like another poster said, I like Brown's energy off the bench to destroy 2nd teamers. We need another young sparkplug off the bench, since Manu is starting this year. Brown fills that role perfectly. As for his fearlessness vs LA in the playoffs last year, I remember a similar performance by Antonio Daniels in the 2001 playoffs, and he tried to start a few games the next year and flaked out.

wildbill2u

10-08-2004, 01:45 PM

Playoff Stats
G Min 2pt 3 pt FT Rebounds PPG
Brown 9 14.4 18-37 .486 6-10 .600 10-17 .588 2.00 5.8

Bowen:10 29.8 23-63 .365 11-29 .379 3-13 .231 2.90 6.0

There are a lot of things these stats don't tell (defensive stops for example) but I thought they might keep the interest up in this debate. For Brown, the first playoff series was almost nothing because he only averaged 3 minutes and had almost no stats. You can also argue that Bowen's 3 pt stats are more relevant because they are based on a much larger base number of attempts.

timvp

10-08-2004, 04:03 PM

One thing I don't like that Bowen has turned to is trying to have an all-around offensive game. I would love it if he would JUST shoot threes or pass. I hate seeing him dribble the ball or try to create off of a drive. That isn't his game and it doesn't really help anything.

If Bowen plays like he did during the 2003 championship run, meaning just hit threes and play good D ... then I'd be all for him keeping his starting job. But I think he hurts the team when he goes into games looking to score off the dribble.

BigVee

10-08-2004, 05:09 PM

Yes, keep some people in the game who can dribble...along with free throw shooting the Spurs of the past couple of years have had some of the worst ball handlers/scoring off the dribble players in the league...I mean who doesn't say "oh no" when you see Bowen, Rose, Jackson, Horry, Willis, Hedo, Rasho, even TD take off on a dribbling turnover fantasy trip?

T Park

10-08-2004, 06:32 PM

Brown Parker Ginobili would be an interesting starting 5.

IMO, this would be good a good move if things arent going well.

BUT, I would still put the position up for competition.

I share TIMVP's dislike of Bowen trying to become a 10 point a game player.

Shoot threes. Play D. get your 6 9 points a game, shut down the best shooter or wing player on the other team, and youll be alright.

xcoriate

10-08-2004, 07:11 PM

I don't have a problem with bowen improving on the offensive end, he probably isn't going to get better defensively.

However he should be selective about what he works on, he doesn't need to work on driving it should just be jumpshot after jumpshot.

Extend his range to the full way around the perimetre. Work on a midranger and get those free throws happening.

If he can accomplish that he will be a prefect compliment to tims game.

grjr

10-08-2004, 08:46 PM

One thing I don't like that Bowen has turned to is trying to have an all-around offensive game. I would love it if he would JUST shoot threes or pass. I hate seeing him dribble the ball or try to create off of a drive. That isn't his game and it doesn't really help anything.

Yeah, towards the end of last season Bruce tended to pass up his open corner threes so he could upfake and drive baseline where he would then throw the ball away. I'll take the chance on the three, thanks.

jr

timvp

10-08-2004, 10:56 PM

Yeah, towards the end of last season Bruce tended to pass up his open corner threes so he could upfake and drive baseline where he would then throw the ball away. I'll take the chance on the three, thanks.

jr

Exactly. I want him shooting that three. I've never seen him make a good pass off of a penetrating move, so what he's doing off the dribble can't really be called "creating". It's more like getting in the way.

Hit threes and D up.

ChumpDumper

10-10-2004, 01:15 PM

Someone will replace Bowen eventually, but they'll have to be as consistent or better on defense first.

Haven't seen that from Devin yet.

Kobe just shot over Devin a la Antonio Daniels, so pick your poison.

timvp

10-27-2004, 02:47 PM

Brodels

10-27-2004, 03:13 PM

Just a little update ...

So far in preseason, Brown is averaging 11.6 points, 6.8 rebounds, and 2.0 assists in 24.6 minutes per game.

If you put a player next to Rasho and Tim that can go out and get you seven boards a game, that would be a huge plus. The Spurs would be the best rebounding team in the league by far, especially considering you have Ginobili getting 4-5 boards a game himself.

This move is making more and more sense.

Sure, if you want a tired and ineffective Manu.

Brown has played well, but he still hasn't refined his defensive skills to the point where he can successfully guard great swingmen for long stretches at a time. Manu can stay in front of those players, but since he's played constantly for two years and many feel he performs best at 28-30 minutes per game (and that's not guarding the opponents best), you're taking a chance. Manu has enough to think about. He's at his best when he can roam some and play the passing lanes. He expends a lot of energy out there. He doesn't need a greater workload.

The job can be Devin's when he becomes a great defender. He's going to have to be better at guarding the league's best swingmen. When that happens, I'll consider him the best choice. His offense and rebounding is simply superior to Bowen's, but Bruce's defense is still needed.

Bowen is going to be more effective as a starter, and there are still going to be plenty of minutes for Brown.

Kori Ellis

10-27-2004, 03:17 PM

Brown has played well, but he still hasn't refined his defensive skills to the point where he can successfully guard great swingmen for long stretches at a time.

How did you conclude that?

there are still going to be plenty of minutes for Brown.

How do you figure? Pop says he doesn't want to use Barry/Manu at the point.

Swingspots = 96 minutes

With conservatives estimates of 28 minutes per game for Manu, Barry and Bowen, that leaves only 12 more minutes.

timvp

10-27-2004, 03:20 PM

Brown guarded Kobe better than Bowen did. What more evidence do you need? Of course he's not on Bowen's level, but he's still classified as a "good" defender.

And starting Brown wouldn't change anything Manu does. Brown would take the more difficult defensive assignment just like Bowen would. In fact, starting Brown would only help Manu. The offense would be much smoother and much faster, which makes Manu even more effective.

Brodels

10-27-2004, 03:28 PM

How did you conclude that?

How do you figure? Pop says he doesn't want to use Barry/Manu at the point.

Swingspots = 96 minutes

With conservatives estimates of 28 minutes per game for Manu, Barry and Bowen, that leaves only 12 more minutes.

1. Somebody is going to get hurt. It always happens, and other players get more minutes because it always happens. If Beno doesn't miss some time this season it will be big surprise. When that happens, Barry will get more minutes at the point and that will free up time for Brown.

2. Pop has options if he needs to inject some offense into the lineup. If Bowen starts off slow and the opponent's best swing player sucks, Brown could certainly see some more minutes.

3. I simply can't imagine that Barry will get 28 minutes per game unless he's forced to play backup point. I can see him getting 22-24 minutes. But again, you would probably have a better idea of what Pop is going to do than I do. But I still think Barry will play less than 28 minutes.

4. 12 minutes a game seems significant to me. I think he'll get at least that.

5. If Brown plays well, Pop will find a way to get him minutes even if he doesn't start. As we've seen in the past, Pop isn't afraid to give younger players minutes over proven veterans if those younger players perform well.

How did you conclude that?

By watching him last season. Unless he's improved significantly over the summer, I'll stick by that.

I think he's a solid defender with the potential to become a very good defender, but last season he often got beat one-on-one. It has nothing to do with his athleticism and everything to do with his ability to anticipate. He'll become a better defender with time. He just needs some more seasoning.

Again, you see the team almost every day so you know what's going on. But based upon what I've seen, I'll stick with Bowen as the starter for now. By the end of the season, Devin could be the starter if he makes big strides.

Kori Ellis

10-27-2004, 03:30 PM

By watching him last season. Unless he's improved significantly over the summer, I'll stick by that.

You should probably wait to watch him this season before concluding anything then. He worked hard this summer on defense and perimeter shooting. I'm not in favor of replacing Bowen with him in the starting lineup. I just was checking to see if you were assuming things just because of last season.

Brodels

10-27-2004, 03:33 PM

Brown guarded Kobe better than Bowen did. What more evidence do you need? Of course he's not on Bowen's level, but he's still classified as a "good" defender.

Bowen was screened off all game. It's not really fair to criticize him for that. The Lakers did what they needed to do to get Kobe involved. I think he's a good defender, but he need to be a better defender.

And starting Brown wouldn't change anything Manu does. Brown would take the more difficult defensive assignment just like Bowen would. In fact, starting Brown would only help Manu. The offense would be much smoother and much faster, which makes Manu even more effective.

I disagree. If Brown starts, I can see Manu getting the tougher assignments. He's more proven as a defender. I just can't imagine Devin being thrown in there are being asked to shut down Vince Carter (O.K., maybe that's a bad example), Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, etc.

I agree that the offense as a whole would work better with Brown in there, and Manu would benefit the most. Brown could very well be the starting small forward of the future for the Spurs, but I just don't think it is his time yet.

timvp

10-27-2004, 03:35 PM

Brodels

10-27-2004, 03:37 PM

You should probably wait to watch him this season before concluding anything then. He worked hard this summer on defense and perimeter shooting. I'm not in favor of replacing Bowen with him in the starting lineup. I just was checking to see if you were assuming things just because of last season.

I am basing my opinions on what he did last season because that's all I have to go by. If you can tell me that he made significant progress over the summer on his defense, I'll reconsider. Nobody seems to be making that claim though.

I might change my mind during the season. But unless he's made significant strides, it just isn't time yet. He needs to play more minutes before he gets a starting position. If he can play well for the first half of the season off the bench and show that he can defend at a high level, I would certainly be in favor of him moving into the starting five. The offense would be much better.

Brodels

10-27-2004, 03:39 PM

To get Brown minutes, you might have to go with:

Manu: 30 minutes
Bowen: 25 minutes
Barry: 22 minutes
Brown: 19 minutes

I think that is unreasonable since it's going to be hard to limit Manu's minutes, especially if he's playing well. Barry will also probably start deserving more minutes. And still, 19 minutes really isn't enough to get the most out of Brown.

It's a good problem to have, but it could be a problem. It could come down to either Bowen, Barry or Brown getting limited minutes. I'm not sure any of the three could handle getting 5-10 minutes per game.

It might not happen, but I certainly think that your minute breakdown is reasonable. Many have argued that Manu is more effective when he gets less minutes, and although I don't know if I really believe that, it's worth considering. And I still believe that Barry is going to average 20-24 minutes per game this season.

And while 19 minutes isn't enough to get the most out of Devin, it is enough for him to keep improving and show what he can do. 19 minutes will get him some shots.

FromWayDowntown

10-27-2004, 03:42 PM

Even if Brown outplays Bowen during this season, I expect that Devin will be in that second unit for reasons similar to those that sent Manu to the bench last year. As it stands, the Spurs have very little to offer, offensively, in the second unit. It's pretty much Barry and a bunch of guys who need others to create for them. If you put Bowen in that group, the second unit will be offensively abysmal. Meanwhile, with Brown in the first unit, you might be wasting his relative offensive skill by limiting his opportunities, since he'll have to find shots from what's left over after Duncan, Ginobili, and Parker get done (not to mention the shots that are allocated to Rasho to "get him involved" or "keep him involved"). Bowen can be effective with 4-6 shots per night and his corner 3's are an effective compliment to teams that double Tim, crash on Parker and Ginobili when they penetrate, or heavily zone the strong side of the floor.

Coming off the bench, Devin can probably get a couple more shots than that, and probably deserves a few more looks. I'm coming around on Devin, but I'd think on this team, his skills are best utilized in the second unit.

Marcus Bryant

10-27-2004, 04:11 PM

With Barry, Brown, Rose, and Udrih coming off the bench you should have a good dose of energy and aggressiveness. If Udrih pans out, Brown continues to improve, and the other two bring what they have in the past then the Spurs should have a pretty solid bench. Horry and Mass are savvy enough to fit in as needed. Johnson (well, along with Udrih) is the wild card. If he pans out then the Spurs should be set.

I'm feeling a little better about the bench than a couple of months ago.

BigVee

10-27-2004, 04:30 PM

I for one wouldn't mind sacrificing a little defense to get more offense. I am sick and tired of sweating out leads in the second half when the offense goes in the tank. It puts way too much stress on the defensive end to continually need one stop after another. Plus, who cares about Vince Carter?...you see him twice a year and never in the playoffs, Ray Allen? Seattle stinks. Kobe and McGrady will take a team scheme anyhow. But, with Pop's defensive mentality, you can bet Bowen will be in the starting line-up for a long time, this year for sure.