Rummy P3ownd!!

[Nbadan]

http://thinkprogress.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/rumsfeldspeech.jpg
doah!!


Speaking in Atlanta today, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was sharply questioned about his pre-war claims about WMD in Iraq. An audience member confronted Rumsfeld with his 2003 claim about WMD, “We know where they are.” Rumsfeld falsely claimed he never said it. The audience member then read Rumsfeld’s quote back to him, leaving the defense secretary speechless.

Of course, Rumsfeld did say he knew where the WMD were. From ABC’s This Week, 5/4/03:


STEPHANOPOULOS: And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven’t found any weapons of mass destruction?

SEC. RUMSFELD: …We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.

Read the full transcript HERE.Think Progress (http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/04/rumsfeld-called-out)

[Oh, Gee!!]

Jerry, just remember. It's not a lie... if you believe it.

[Oh, Gee!!]

Weapons of Mass DestructiOwN3d

[SA210]

video link

I love how Rummy was at a loss of words. :lol

http://www.cnn.com/video/player/player.html?url=/video/politics/2006/05/04/rumsfeld.protests.mxf.cnn


::crickets::

[boutons_]

rummy = war criminal for starting a phony war

[Nbadan]

Shit, on the local news blimps they stopped reporting this story after mentioning that Rummy said, "I did not lie", so most people in South Texas don't even know the full story of what took place after.

[SA210]

Shit, on the local news blimps they stopped reporting this story after mentioning that Rummy said, "I did not lie", so most people in South Texas don't even know the full story of what took place after.
"I did not lie" was a lie.

:lol

[JoeChalupa]

I watched the clip for some reason I kept switching to FauxNews but didn't see it being reported? That damn liberal media!!!!

[Yonivore]

I just watched their footage at the FoxNews Website. I can't imagine they'd post footage they didn't air.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/images/50_vid_050406_sr_rumsfield.jpg (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194248,00.html)
Follow the "VIDEO" Link (far right selection in the red banner across the top) and look for this picture. Two minutes long. I wonder how much of the exchange was shown on the other networks and how it might have been edited.

[SA210]

I just watched their footage at the FoxNews Website. I can't imagine they'd post footage they didn't air.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/images/50_vid_050406_sr_rumsfield.jpg (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194248,00.html)
Follow the "VIDEO" Link (far right selection in the red banner across the top) and look for this picture. Two minutes long. I wonder how much of the exchange was shown on the other networks and how it might have been edited.

Nice try Yoni,

but that Faux video link for some reason is edited. It doesn't show when Rummy was at a loss for words for that long period of time when the gentleman quoted Rummy stating they knew where the WMD's were after Rummy told him he hasn't lied and those were not his words.

Strange.

[JoeChalupa]

Well, there you go again. It was NOT edited and showed the entire exchange between Rummy and the retired CIA dude, sorry can't recall his name. No editing was necessary at all.
Why can't you just admit that Rummy got pwned? It really isn't hard to do and nobody will accuse of abandoning your loyal support for Rummy and Bush.

[SA210]

Transcript

QUESTION: So I would like to ask you to be up front with the American people, why did you lie to get us into a war that was not necessary, that has caused these kinds of casualties? why?

RUMSFELD: Well, first of all, I haven’t lied. I did not lie then. Colin Powell didn’t lie. He spent weeks and weeks with the Central Intelligence Agency people and prepared a presentation that I know he believed was accurate, and he presented that to the United Nations. the president spent weeks and weeks with the central intelligence people and he went to the american people and made a presentation. i’m not in the intelligence business. they gave the world their honest opinion. it appears that there were not weapons of mass destruction there.

QUESTION: You said you knew where they were.

RUMSFELD: I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were and –

QUESTION: You said you knew where they were Tikrit, Baghdad, northeast, south, west of there. Those are your words.

RUMSFELD: My words — my words were that — no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let him stay one second. Just a second.

de..de..de.......d...d.dd..d.........

::crickets::

OWNED!!

[Ocotillo]

Time for the old man to go. Maybe if we can get him out before the election Bush will appoint Lieberman and we can replace Lieberman with a real Democrat.

[xrayzebra]

"I did not lie" was a lie.

:lol

Takes one to know one. Oh, am I am a Native American, I was borned in
Texas and raised in Texas and still live in Texas. Are you?

[FromWayDowntown]

Transcript

QUESTION: So I would like to ask you to be up front with the American people, why did you lie to get us into a war that was not necessary, that has caused these kinds of casualties? why?

RUMSFELD: Well, first of all, I haven’t lied. I did not lie then. Colin Powell didn’t lie. He spent weeks and weeks with the Central Intelligence Agency people and prepared a presentation that I know he believed was accurate, and he presented that to the United Nations. the president spent weeks and weeks with the central intelligence people and he went to the american people and made a presentation. i’m not in the intelligence business. they gave the world their honest opinion. it appears that there were not weapons of mass destruction there.

QUESTION: You said you knew where they were.

RUMSFELD: I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were and –

QUESTION: You said you knew where they were Tikrit, Baghdad, northeast, south, west of there. Those are your words.

RUMSFELD: My words — my words were that — no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let him stay one second. Just a second.

de..de..de.......d...d.dd..d.........

::crickets::

OWNED!!

The exchange was interesting. What was more interesting was the coverage that showed Rumsfeld saying, verbatim, all of the things the questioner pounded him about. It was pretty damning to see Rumsfeld denying he ever said such things, only to see visual proof that he had. I don't see how that can be anything other than embarassing to the administration; I can also see why some would choose to deduce from that exchange that the Administration has been less-than-forthcoming in a variety of ways.

Rumsfeld either lied or he has an extremely short memory.

[FromWayDowntown]

I just watched their footage at the FoxNews Website. I can't imagine they'd post footage they didn't air.

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/images/50_vid_050406_sr_rumsfield.jpg (http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,194248,00.html)
Follow the "VIDEO" Link (far right selection in the red banner across the top) and look for this picture. Two minutes long. I wonder how much of the exchange was shown on the other networks and how it might have been edited.

I saw the entire 2 minute exchange on CNN last night.

I also saw that the questioner stopped asking questions when asked to and that he sat down and civilly listened to the remainder of Rumsfeld's talk. To Rumsfeld's credit, he had an out when the guy was apparently going to be escorted out of the hall; the Secretary, however, asked that the questioner be permitted to stay.

He's a former CIA analyst -- what could he possibly know? Now he's a traitor too. Questioning the Secretary about such things -- riduculous!

[Ocotillo]

He's a former CIA analyst -- what could he possibly know? Now he's a traitor too. Questioning the Secretary about such things -- riduculous!

He joins a long list of people who all of sudden hate America.

Richard Clarke
Joe Wilson
the first Secretary of Treasury under 43
Lawerence Wilkerson
the list goes on.......

[Yonivore]

Liberal Blogger Andrew Sullivan (http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/05/the_man_who_hec.html) says the man who heckled Rummy (http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/05/the_man_who_hec.html) was...


...not some crazed lefty. The man who demanded that Rumsfeld answer the questions we all want to have answered turns out to be the man who gave former president George H. W. Bush his daily intelligence briefing. And he was right in the exchange; and Rummy was factually wrong. Yep: Rumsfeld lied. Quelle surprise.
No not some crazed lefty. The man was Ray McGovern, who Conservative Blogger Sweetness and Light (http://www.sweetness-light.com/archive/mary-mccarthys-peculiar-defenders/) noticed awhile back was part of Daniel Ellsberg's Truth Telling Project. At the time, Sweetness & Light was commenting that the press had quoted two former counterterrorism experts in defense of Mary McCarthy but omitted one interesting detail, which may or may not be relevant. Here's ABC News (http://abcnews.go.com/WNT/Politics/story?id=1878286&page=1) report quoting the first expert, Ray McGovern to the effect that McCarthy had a higher duty to "defend the constitution".


To supporters, McCarthy is a woman of conviction who exposed actions she believed were against the law.

"This a matter of principle," said Ray McGovern, a former fellow CIA analyst, "where she said my oath, my promise not to reveal secrets is superceded by my oath to defend the constitution of the U.S." ...
Then Sweetness and Light notices that both Ray McGovern and Larry Johnson are associated with Daniel Ellsberg's The Truth-Telling Project (http://www.ellsberg.net/truthtellingproject.html). For those who are unfamiliar with the name Daniel Ellsberg, here's the Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Ellsberg).


Daniel Ellsberg (born April 7, 1931) is a former American military analyst who precipitated a national uproar in 1971 when he released the Pentagon Papers, the US military's account of activities during the Vietnam War, to The New York Times. His release of the Pentagon Papers succeeded in substantially eroding public support for the war.
Ray McGovern's role is described on this Truth-Telling Project (http://www.ellsberg.net/truthtellingproject/activities.html) web page.


The Truth-Telling Coalition, comprised of high-level national security truth-tellers, as well as non-profit whistleblower organizations, provides a personal and legal support network for each other and for government insiders considering becoming truth-tellers. Current coalition members include Sibel Edmonds, Daniel Ellsberg, Frank Grevil, Katharine Gun, Ray McGovern, Coleen Rowley, the Project on Government Oversight, and the ACLU. (Bios and info on members will be available on the Truth-Telling Coalition Website, currently under construction.) To see press coverage of the Truth-Telling Coalition, see the Press Coverage page.
While watching the video (http://images1.americanprogress.org/il80web20037/ThinkProgress/2006/rum.320.240.mov) I fully expected Rummy to be massacred inside McGovern's kill-zone since McGovern had the ability to choose the very specific ground on which to challenge Rumsfeld. The verbatim transcript of the exchange is below.


Ray McGovern: "So I would like to ask you to be up front with the American people, why did you lie to get us into a war that was not necessary, that has caused these kinds of casualties? why?"

Secretary Rumsfeld: "Well, first of all, I haven’t lied. I did not lie then. Colin Powell didn’t lie. He spent weeks and weeks with the Central Intelligence Agency people and prepared a presentation that I know he believed was accurate, and he presented that to the United Nations. the president spent weeks and weeks with the central intelligence people and he went to the american people and made a presentation. i’m not in the intelligence business. they gave the world their honest opinion. it appears that there were not weapons of mass destruction there."

Ray McGovern: "You said you knew where they were."

Secretary Rumsfeld: "I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were and –"

Ray McGovern: "You said you knew where they were Tikrit, Baghdad, northeast, south, west of there. Those are your words.

Secretary Rumsfeld: "My words — my words were that — no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let him stay one second. Just a second."

Ray McGovern: "This is America."

Secretary Rumsfeld: "You’re getting plenty of play, sir."

Ray McGovern: "I’d just like an honest answer."

Secretary Rumsfeld: "I’m giving it to you."

Ray McGovern: "Well we’re talking about lies and your allegation there was bulletproof evidence of ties between al Qaeda and Iraq."

Secretary Rumsfeld: "Zarqawi was in Baghdad during the prewar period. That is a fact."

Ray McGovern: "Zarqawi? He was in the north of Iraq in a place where Saddam Hussein had no rule. That’s also…"

Secretary Rumsfeld: "He was also in Baghdad."

Ray McGovern: "Yes, when he needed to go to the hospital.

"Come on, these people aren’t idiots. They know the story."

(PROTESTER INTERRUPTS)

Secretary Rumsfeld: "Let me give you an example.

"It’s easy for you to make a charge, but why do you think that the men and women in uniform every day, when they came out of Kuwait and went into Iraq, put on chemical weapon protective suits? Because they liked the style?"

(LAUGHTER)

"They honestly believed that there were chemical weapons."

(APPLAUSE)

"Saddam Hussein had used chemical weapons on his own people previously. He’d used them on his neighbor (AUDIO GAP) the Iranians, and they believed he had those weapons."

"We believed he had those weapons."

Ray McGovern: "That’s what we call a non sequitur. It doesn’t matter what the troops believe; it matters what you believe."

The Moderator: "I think, Mr. Secretary, the debate is over. We have other questions, courtesy to the audience."

The counterfactual which proves Rumsfeld "lied" is this cited exchange (http://www.defenselink.mil/transcripts/2003/t03302003_t0330sdabcsteph.html) from a DOD briefing:


George Stephanopouos: "And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven’t found any weapons of mass destruction?"

Secretary Rumsfeld: " …We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."
But the citation is not complete. If you read the full exchange, which took place at a briefing on March 30,2003 it will be abundantly clear Rumsfeld made these statements when neither Tikrit and Baghdad were in Coalition hands. Baghdad fell on April 8, 2003, more than a week after this exchange between Rumsfeld and Stephanopoulos. Tikrit fell even later. The verbatim exchange is given below..


Secretary Rumsfeld: "Yeah. Do it. His circumstance is not a happy one. We're within 49 miles of Baghdad. He's being closed on from the north, south, and there's so many people running around hyper-ventilating that things aren't going well. This plan is working."

George Stephanopoulos: "Finally, weapons of mass destruction. Key goal of the military campaign is finding those weapons of mass destruction. None have been found yet. There was a raid on the Answar Al-Islam Camp up in the north last night. A lot of people expected to find ricin there. None was found. How big of a problem is that? And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven't found any weapons of mass destruction?"

Secretary Rumsfeld: "Not at all. If you think -- let me take that, both pieces -- the area in the south and the west and the north that coalition forces control is substantial. It happens not to be the area where weapons of mass destruction were dispersed. We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."
And, now, for the rest of the story:


Secretary Rumsfeld (continued): "Second, the [audio glitch] facilities, there are dozens of them, it's a large geographic area. It is the -- Answar Al-Islam group has killed a lot of Kurds. They are tough. And our forces are currently in there with the Kurdish forces, cleaning the area out, tracking them down, killing them or capturing them and they will then begin the site exploitation. The idea, from your question, that you can attack that place and exploit it and find out what's there in fifteen minutes."
And now for the money quote -- stated way back on March 30, 2003 and immediately after the line McGovern used in his attempt to prove Secretary Rumsfeld lied:


Secretary Rumsfeld (continued): "I would also add, we saw from the air that there were dozens of trucks that went into that facility after the existence of it became public in the press and they moved things out. They dispersed them and took them away. So there may be nothing left. I don't know that. But it's way too soon to know. The exploitation is just starting."
Ray McGovern had plenty of time to do what I just did, to examine the transcript above. Go ahead, do it yourself...follow the links.

It's abundantly clear from the transcript that Rumsfeld had only intelligence indications that the WMD were "in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat". It was clearly a statement of belief that the WMDs would be found there. He also categorically warned Stephanopoulous the WMDs might not be found at all. "I would also add, we saw from the air that there were dozens of trucks that went into that facility after the existence of it became public in the press and they moved things out. They dispersed them and took them away. So there may be nothing left. I don't know that. But it's way too soon to know. The exploitation is just starting."

None of this means the points which Ray McGovern raised were invalid. But it is not obviously the case that Rumsfeld knew for a fact the WMDs would not be found in Tikrit, Baghdad, etc ... and lied about it. Rumsfield may have lied at some other time on some other subject, although I doubt it, but the proof is not to be found in the exchange above -- which is the "proof" McGovern used in his exchange.

What would be more convincing is some kind of document which indicated intelligence believed they would not be found in Tikrit, Baghdad and other suspect places and that Rumsfeld maintained the contrary. But the exchange above actually supports Rumsfeld's assertion that he maintained they were "suspect sites" rather than sites in which he had definite knowledge of their location. I think the assertion that McGovern "proved" that Rumsfeld lied is simply an assertion. And no, Ray McGovern was not some "crazed lefty". He was the best the Left had to prove that Rumsfeld lied fighting on his chosen ground. And he didn't prove anything.

[Vashner]

Don't fuck with the Rummy bitches.

[Nbadan]

Secretary Rumsfeld (continued): "I would also add, we saw from the air that there were dozens of trucks that went into that facility after the existence of it became public in the press and they moved things out. They dispersed them and took them away. So there may be nothing left. I don't know that. But it's way too soon to know. The exploitation is just starting."

Oh god, not this again. Yeah, it was in the press alright. Worldnetdaily, FAUX News, and Newsmax

:lmao

[Nbadan]

So according to Yoni, the Iraqi's moved, dare I say, destroyed, the suspected WMD's "around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat." Just to embarrass Rummy.

Could happen.

[Nbadan]

Current coalition members include Sibel Edmonds, Daniel Ellsberg, Frank Grevil, Katharine Gun, Ray McGovern, Coleen Rowley, the Project on Government Oversight, and the ACLU

Yoni should have spent some time googling Sibel Edmonds.

[George W Bush]

Rummy shoulda only spoke in front of troops like I do.
That's how I roll.



I'm George W Bush and I approve this message:tu

[Mr. Peabody]

Liberal Blogger Andrew Sullivan (http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/05/the_man_who_hec.html) says the man who heckled Rummy (http://time.blogs.com/daily_dish/2006/05/the_man_who_hec.html) was...



Did you just cut and paste this guy's entire blog entry? Is one word of that entire post actually your original thought?

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Yoniwhore hasn't had an original thought in years.

[xrayzebra]

Gee, dan, love posting to himself and his minions all love to join
in. Or should we just: All together now. Remember follow the
leader.

[SA210]

Gee, dan, love posting to himself and his minions all love to join
in. Or should we just: All together now. Remember follow the
leader.


Transcript

QUESTION: So I would like to ask you to be up front with the American people, why did you lie to get us into a war that was not necessary, that has caused these kinds of casualties? why?

RUMSFELD: Well, first of all, I haven’t lied. I did not lie then. Colin Powell didn’t lie. He spent weeks and weeks with the Central Intelligence Agency people and prepared a presentation that I know he believed was accurate, and he presented that to the United Nations. the president spent weeks and weeks with the central intelligence people and he went to the american people and made a presentation. i’m not in the intelligence business. they gave the world their honest opinion. it appears that there were not weapons of mass destruction there.

QUESTION: You said you knew where they were.

RUMSFELD: I did not. I said I knew where suspect sites were and –

QUESTION: You said you knew where they were Tikrit, Baghdad, northeast, south, west of there. Those are your words.

RUMSFELD: My words — my words were that — no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let him stay one second. Just a second.

de..de..de.......d...d.dd..d.........

::crickets::

OWNED!!
:lmao

[xrayzebra]

Oh, you were included. Don't feel "left" out. I knew "all" of you have to get in
on the act.....

[Yonivore]

Did you just cut and paste this guy's entire blog entry? Is one word of that entire post actually your original thought?
What guy's entire blog?

[LittleGeneral]

Damn Canadians.

[xrayzebra]

:lmao

It takes so little to amuse the small, pea pickin minds of some who post
here. But they always do the expected.

[SA210]

It takes so little to amuse the small, pea pickin minds of some who post
here. But they always do the expected.
I don't know, but I 'd like to know how your post changed the fact that Rummy got "P3owned".

[xrayzebra]

I don't think he did. But I would expect that you would. Truth seems to always
allude people like you.

[Mr. Peabody]

What guy's entire blog?

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/

Unless you are "wretchard" (aka Richard Fernandez) a blogger at "The Belmont Club" who posted an identical post and if you are, my sincerest apologies for the accusation.

If you are not "wretchard," either he copied your post word-for-word on his blog or you copied his blog word-for-word in this forum.

[DarkReign]

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/

Unless you are "wretchard" (aka Richard Fernandez) a blogger at "The Belmont Club" who posted an identical post and if you are, my sincerest apologies for the accusation.

If you are not "wretchard," either he copied your post word-for-word on his blog or you copied his blog word-for-word in this forum.

pwnd

[Oh, Gee!!]

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/

Unless you are "wretchard" (aka Richard Fernandez) a blogger at "The Belmont Club" who posted an identical post and if you are, my sincerest apologies for the accusation.

If you are not "wretchard," either he copied your post word-for-word on his blog or you copied his blog word-for-word in this forum.


I think we've seen the last of Yonivore.

[Yonivore]

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/

Unless you are "wretchard" (aka Richard Fernandez) a blogger at "The Belmont Club" who posted an identical post and if you are, my sincerest apologies for the accusation.

If you are not "wretchard," either he copied your post word-for-word on his blog or you copied his blog word-for-word in this forum.
Now that we know the source -- as if that matters in an anonymous forum -- your response to the post is?

[LittleGeneral]

Now that we know the source -- as if that matters in an anonymous forum -- your response to the post is?

Damn Canadians.

[DarkReign]

I remember a thread where Yoni said something to the effect of...

"Yeah, I straight steal other peoples material and dont link to it, doesnt change the message."

Yes, you are correct. But it does damage the messenger.

[xrayzebra]

I remember a thread where Yoni said something to the effect of...

"Yeah, I straight steal other peoples material and dont link to it, doesnt change the message."

Yes, you are correct. But it does damage the messenger.


You are very correct. Nothing wrong with quoting someone, just give them
the credit they deserve. And they do deserve it if you are going to
quote them. Otherwise it is theft of someone's thoughts.

[Oh, Gee!!]

You are very correct. Nothing wrong with quoting someone, just give them
the credit they deserve. And they do deserve it if you are going to
quote them. Otherwise it is theft of someone's thoughts.


Bingo, and theft is a serious crime.

[George W Bush]

I remember a thread where Yoni said something to the effect of...

"Yeah, I straight steal other peoples material and dont link to it, doesnt change the message."

Yes, you are correct. But it does damage the messenger.

You see,
It's like one of my favorite great political philosophers once wrote,

"Yes I do like green eggs and ham."

You see, someone else wrote it,
but I think it helps me connect with the American
people when I quote him in my speeches.

And plus ham is good for you, I think.

We first used it in my speech to some 1st graders
and it really worked,
so I've used it every since.

By the way, I got a speech in front of some troops
right now, gotta go.


I'm George W Bush and I approve this message :tu

[Yonivore]

I remember a thread where Yoni said something to the effect of...

"Yeah, I straight steal other peoples material and dont link to it, doesnt change the message."

Yes, you are correct. But it does damage the messenger.
As long as the message is intact, I can handle the damage to my reputation. Particularly since you don't know who the fuck I am.

[Oh, Gee!!]

As long as the message is intact, I can handle the damage to my reputation. Particularly since you don't know who the fuck I am.


I do. You're the guy in the security guard suit driving the golf cart around the Target parking lot.

[Yonivore]

Bingo, and theft is a serious crime.
File a complaint. But please, in the mean time, would you respond to the valid points posted?

[Yonivore]

I do. You're the guy in the security guard suit driving the golf cart around the Target parking lot.
Wow, that golf cart is pretty wired, eh?

[Oh, Gee!!]

File a complaint. But please, in the mean time, would you respond to the valid points posted?


Present some valid points first. PWNT

[Yonivore]

How 'bout the valid points raised in my original post.

1) That Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld didn't lie about knowing exactly where WMD's were located in Iraq;

2) That McGovern intentionally misrepresented the quote he used to try and prove that Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld lied;

3) That if this is the strongest "proof" that could be used to prove that Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld lied about knowing exactly where WMD's were located in Iraq then it's a vindication and not condemnation.

How 'bout you start with those.

[Oh, Gee!!]

1. yes he did

2. no he didn't

3. no it isn't


game. set. match. NEXT!!

[Yonivore]

1. yes he did

2. no he didn't

3. no it isn't


game. set. match. NEXT!!
Care to support those assertions? Because my post specifically rebuts -- with supporting evidence -- all three.

Look, if you don't want (or can't) keep up with the debate...just say so. We'll all understand.

[gtownspur]

But yoni... uh huh huh ....you're a security guard...duh....

[Oh, Gee!!]

Care to support those assertions? Because my post specifically rebuts -- with supporting evidence -- all three.

Look, if you don't want (or can't) keep up with the debate...just say so. We'll all understand.


your post? or the one you stole, thief?

[Yonivore]

your post? or the one you stole, thief?
It's my post and the information is thoroughly linked and supported.

Like I said, if you can't...

[Oh, Gee!!]

It's my post and the information is thoroughly linked and supported.

Like I said, if you can't...


The WH (includes Rummy) told us that we needed to go to war with Iraq because they were a threat to us because they had WMDs. We went over there, blew some shit up, but never found WMDs. Then we were told by the WH that Saddam, the evil genius, moved the WMDs before we arrived, and documents containing communications with "high-level" officers in Saddam's regime supported this theory. When asked about where they were moved to, the WH avoids the question and feeds us the line that what we are really doing is deposing an evil empire. If we know that they moved them, and we know where they were moved to, why can't we go find them to vindicate our original reason for going to Iraq? The answer is simple, we never knew for sure Iraq had WMDs. The WH just used it as an excuse.

Furthermore, it is not my job to prove the WH lied, it is the WH's job to prove to us that they were telling the truth. Like I said before, the truth will come out.

[SA210]

The WH (includes Rummy) told us that we needed to go to war with Iraq because they were a threat to us because they had WMDs. We went over there, blew some shit up, but never found WMDs. Then we were told by the WH that Saddam, the evil genius, moved the WMDs before we arrived, and documents containing communications with "high-level" officers in Saddam's regime supported this theory. When asked about where they were moved to, the WH avoids the question and feeds us the line that what we are really doing is deposing an evil empire. If we know that they moved them, and we know where they were moved to, why can't we go find them to vindicate our original reason for going to Iraq? The answer is simple, we never knew for sure Iraq had WMDs. The WH just used it as an excuse.

Furthermore, it is not my job to prove the WH lied, it is the WH's job to prove to us that they were telling the truth. Like I said before, the truth will come out.
duh....dd.d.duh .....d..duh

but they didn't lie...... :lol

Oh Gee, you forgot to mention the 9/11 connection.

[xrayzebra]

duh....dd.d.duh .....d..duh

but they didn't lie...... :lol

Oh Gee, you forgot to mention the 9/11 connection.

Well the first sentence kinda shows what you really do must of the time.

and the second is exactly what say in every post.

and the third shows your real ignorance.

[George W Bush]

Hey there xrayhorsy,

Nice to see my supporters,
at least what I have left of them,
still here defendin' my lies for me.

Thanks fellas.





God Bless America :tu

[Yonivore]

The WH (includes Rummy) told us that we needed to go to war with Iraq because they were a threat to us because they had WMDs. We went over there, blew some shit up, but never found WMDs. Then we were told by the WH that Saddam, the evil genius, moved the WMDs before we arrived, and documents containing communications with "high-level" officers in Saddam's regime supported this theory. When asked about where they were moved to, the WH avoids the question and feeds us the line that what we are really doing is deposing an evil empire. If we know that they moved them, and we know where they were moved to, why can't we go find them to vindicate our original reason for going to Iraq? The answer is simple, we never knew for sure Iraq had WMDs. The WH just used it as an excuse.

Furthermore, it is not my job to prove the WH lied, it is the WH's job to prove to us that they were telling the truth. Like I said before, the truth will come out.
Now who's deflecting?

My post addressed a specific point. That being that Secretary Rumsfeld lied when he said: "We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

This quote is the "proof" Mr. McGovern offered when he accused Secretary Rumsfeld of lying.

Unfortunately for Mr. McGovern, he failed to read the quote in the context of the entire interview between Secretary Rumsfeld and George Stephanopolous.

The rest of your rant above is largely based on similar mischaracterizations. But, I'd be happy if you'd address them one at a time. Did Secretary Rumsfeld lie in his statement to George Stephanopolous?

Once we've established that, we'll move on to the rest of your rambling.

[George W Bush]

I think I have come to the conclusion that I should admit
that I am a liar.

Hell, I'd be the most successful liar in American Presidential history.
And noone could take that away from me.
I knew I could do somethin' right.

Mission Accomplished :tu

[Oh, Gee!!]

Now who's deflecting?

My post addressed a specific point. That being that Secretary Rumsfeld lied when he said: "We know where they are. They're in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."

This quote is the "proof" Mr. McGovern offered when he accused Secretary Rumsfeld of lying.

Unfortunately for Mr. McGovern, he failed to read the quote in the context of the entire interview between Secretary Rumsfeld and George Stephanopolous.

The rest of your rant above is largely based on similar mischaracterizations. But, I'd be happy if you'd address them one at a time. Did Secretary Rumsfeld lie in his statement to George Stephanopolous?

Once we've established that, we'll move on to the rest of your rambling.


SO you think Rummy's not lying because instead of saying "I know exactly where they are," he used language that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the US government had good intel that WMDs were in a certain geographical area, and that we should act on that intel? What's the difference?

[Yonivore]

SO you think Rummy's not lying because instead of saying "I know exactly where they are," he used language that would lead a reasonable person to believe that the US government had good intel that WMDs were in a certain geographical area, and that we should act on that intel? What's the difference?
The difference is that's not what my post said and you apparently didn't read.

The rest of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld's response to Stephonopolous' question was: "I would also add, we saw from the air that there were dozens of trucks that went into that facility after the existence of it became public in the press and they moved things out. They dispersed them and took them away. So there may be nothing left. I don't know that. But it's way too soon to know. The exploitation is just starting."

That's the part of the quote everyone calling him a liar keeps leaving off.

[Oh, Gee!!]

The difference is that's not what my post said and you apparently didn't read.

The rest of Secretary of Defense Rumsfeld's response to Stephonopolous' question was: "I would also add, we saw from the air that there were dozens of trucks that went into that facility after the existence of it became public in the press and they moved things out. They dispersed them and took them away. So there may be nothing left. I don't know that. But it's way too soon to know. The exploitation is just starting."

That's the part of the quote everyone calling him a liar keeps leaving off.

That's what he said to give himself some wiggle-room when (oops) we find no WMDs. Talk about luck.

[Oh, Gee!!]

I know I said that there was WMDs, but I also said they might be gone when we arrived. Either way, I was right.

[Yonivore]

I know I said that there was WMDs, but I also said they might be gone when we arrived. Either way, I was right.
But he said it in the same breath.

Whether you think he was hedging his answer is a debatable point but, saying that Rumsfeld lied because said he knew where the WMD's were when he didn't, isn't consistent with the facts.

[Oh, Gee!!]

But he said it in the same breath.

Whether you think he was hedging his answer is a debatable point but, saying that Rumsfeld lied because said he knew where the WMD's were when he didn't, isn't consistent with the facts.

But he did say he knew were they were. You give more credit to his "out" than to his assertion of where they were.

[Yonivore]

But he did say he were they were.
Right before, and in the same response, he said they may have been dispersed and may be gone when we get there based on satellite images of truck traffic at the sites.

What's your point?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Right before, and in the same response, he said they may have been dispersed and may be gone when we get there based on satellite images of truck traffic at the sites.

What's your point?


The point is we went to war because we "knew" they had WMDs and we "knew" where they were. Rummy was just covering the WH's ass with his "but, they've probably all been moved by now" bullshit. It's more of the same ad hoc crap we've been hearing for 3 years now.

[Yonivore]

The point is we went to war because we "knew" they had WMDs and we "knew" where they were. Rummy was just covering the WH's ass with his "but, they've probably all been moved by now" bullshit. It's more of the same ad hoc crap we've been hearing for 3 years now.
But see, if there were proof of that -- beyond the regular "it's-that-way-because-I-think-the-worst-of-this-administration" -- McGovern would have offered that instead of the lie that wasn't a lie.

The facts are that the entire planet "KNEW" Saddam Hussein had WMD's. The administration believed that had them located but also knew it was possible they had been moved.

Unless you can counter that assertion with some fact to the contrary, your position the administration lied is just the biased characterization of someone who wants to believe the administration lied.

[Oh, Gee!!]

But see, if there were proof of that -- beyond the regular "it's-that-way-because-I-think-the-worst-of-this-administration" -- McGovern would have offered that instead of the lie that wasn't a lie.

The facts are that the entire planet "KNEW" Saddam Hussein had WMD's. The administration believed that had them located but also knew it was possible they had been moved.

Unless you can counter that assertion with some fact to the contrary, your position the administration lied is just the biased characterization of someone who wants to believe the administration lied.

Fact: No WMDs have been found, but we have heard several excuses from BushCo.

[Yonivore]

Fact: No WMDs have been found, but we have heard several excuses from BushCo.
But the subject of this thread was whether or not Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld lied about it.

I believe the facts show he didn't. You've yet to present facts that demonstrate otherwise.

[DarkReign]

In terms of debate, this thread fails.

Moderators in a real debate do not allow circular arguments.

I need only point to this 3rd page.

There are very easy ways to be upfront with the American people. Please, dont pretend the WH tries in the least to be anywhere near honest or objective.

"But, how could they show us without telling Al-Queda, dumbass! N00b...sux0r!"

Youre right there. Seems to be another convenient catch-22, much along the lines of "We know where the WMDs are, but then we took pics of some trucks, they may not be there anymore"

Thats a classic, ultra-over-used circular statement. It can neither be proved or disproved. Same could be said for God. Soooooo, does that mean the WH is asking us to take this matter on faith?

Im not very religious.

[Oh, Gee!!]

But the subject of this thread was whether or not Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld lied about it.

I believe the facts show he didn't. You've yet to present facts that demonstrate otherwise.

He said we know they have WMD and we know where they are [THE REASON FOR GOING TO WAR!!], but let me add this excuse at the end of my assertion in support of invading Iraq in case we show up and we're wrong. If that's not a lie, it's at least insufficient justification for going to war. Either way, your heroes in the WH are fucking idiots.

[Nbadan]

Using a metaphor, this is like if a bankrobber was released because there was no money in the safe. Rummy told everyone that the WMD's would be there, Condi, Dubya, Cheney, and Powell all publicly concurred. When the WMD's weren't there Powell resigned, the rest of the NeoCons should have followed suit.

[Yonivore]

He said we know they have WMD...
As did everyone else on the face of the planet.


...and we know where they are [THE REASON FOR GOING TO WAR!!],...
I suggest you revisit the President's State of the Union Address from 2003 and his address to the nation on the invasion of Iraq that same year.


...but let me add this excuse at the end of my assertion in support of invading Iraq in case we show up and we're wrong. If that's not a lie, it's at least insufficient justification for going to war. Either way, your heroes in the WH are fucking idiots.
Well, it wasn't the only justification and if they were idiots for not knowing Iraq didn't have WMD's then so was everyone else.

[xrayzebra]

I know I said that there was WMDs, but I also said they might be gone when we arrived. Either way, I was right.

Spoken like a true Clinton fan!
:lol

[xrayzebra]

Using a metaphor, this is like if a bankrobber was released because there was no money in the safe. Rummy told everyone that the WMD's would be there, Condi, Dubya, Cheney, and Powell all publicly concurred. When the WMD's weren't there Powell resigned, the rest of the NeoCons should have followed suit.

And so did every country in the world, so did everyone in the Clinton
administration and every damn congressperson. So get off this stuff.

[Nbadan]

And so did every country in the world, so did everyone in the Clinton
administration and every damn congressperson. So get off this stuff.

Hans Blix didn't, and neither did Scott Ritter, the Russians, the Germans, the Chinese, the French didn't either, Oh but they were in it for the money right?

:rolleyes

[Yonivore]

Hans Blix didn't, and neither did Scott Ritter, the Russians, the Germans, the Chinese, the French didn't either, Oh but they were in it for the money right?

:rolleyes
Yes, they did. Well, until it became obvious President Bush meant what he said. It was only when it became apparent the United States was determined to disarm and dethrone Saddam Hussein that they started backpeddling on their previous statements.

And, yep, it was because of the money.

[Mr. Peabody]

I know I said that there was WMDs, but I also said they might be gone when we arrived. Either way, I was right.


Spoken like a true Clinton fan!
:lol

I think you misunderstood the post...

He was speaking as Rumsfeld!

kapwnt!!!