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Marcus Bryant
10-07-2004, 11:44 AM
http://www.economist.com/agenda/displayStory.cfm?story_id=3261606

Draw your own conclusions

Oct 7th 2004
The Economist

Critics of the Iraq war will feel vindicated by a new report, concluding that Saddam Hussein had no illicit weapons. But the war’s backers will feel equally vindicated by its findings that he was readying to restart his weapons programmes at the first opportunity

YES, the weapons stocks that America, Britain and indeed most governments expected to find in Iraq after last year’s invasion are still not there. But no, that is not proof, as critics claim, that United Nations sanctions were working. On the contrary, Saddam Hussein was trying to play the UN and everyone else for fools; left to his own devices, he would have been quickly back to his chemical, biological, nuclear and missile tricks. If America’s intelligence services and others were victims of too much certainty about Iraq’s weapons, Saddam fell victim to his own deceit.

That is the gist of the latest, 1,200-or-so-page report from the American-led Iraq Survey Group (ISG), published on Wednesday October 6th. Since Charles Duelfer, the chief inspector, last reported in March, his team have ploughed through millions of pages of documents and watched thousands of videos. They have interviewed scores of Iraqis, including the man himself and many of his inner circle. In the ISG’s most exhaustive report so far, Mr Duelfer tries to pin down not just what was going on in Iraq, but why.

Yet it is the what that still dominates the headlines. For if there were no militarily significant weapons stockpiles, surely there was no threat? Iraq’s covert programmes, especially its nuclear programme, were in disarray. Yet Saddam never abandoned his intent to produce such weapons. Concealment of plans, and of illicit imports, though many with possible civilian uses too, put him in multiple breach of UN resolutions.

Some of what he had been up to appeared in the earlier reports. Mr Duelfer lists: improved production methods in the chemicals industry; a covert network of laboratories run by the intelligence services for testing chemicals and poisons, and other evidence of tests on humans; plans for ballistic missiles of ranges from 400-1,000km, well beyond the 150km allowed by the UN, and including efforts to buy missile technology from North Korea and from Russian firms. None of the missiles, however, was in production.

Building the missile systems was what Iraq had found hardest. Once it had developed these, it already had the knowledge to produce, within months or weeks, chemical or biological warheads to put on them. And interviews show that Saddam’s weapons scientists assumed they would be back in business once the heat was off. Mahdi Obeidi, who used to run Iraq’s covert uranium enrichment programme and had been famously ordered to hide the plans under a tree in his garden, concurs. Iraq’s nuclear programme could have been restarted “at the snap of Saddam Hussein’s fingers”, he wrote recently in the New York Times.

But how to get the heat off? By using some of his $11 billion of illicit income from sanctions-busting schemes to try to buy off politicians and companies in various countries, including Russia, France and China—each of which has a veto on the UN Security Council (and each of which ended up opposing the American-led invasion). The report says that, of Saddam's total illicit earnings, $2 billion came from corrupting the UN’s oil-for-food programme, under which Iraq had been allowed to export a limited amount of oil in return for using the proceeds to feed its impoverished people. To finance his illicit imports as well as buying influence, Saddam issued oil vouchers, which could be re-sold at a profit under the oil-for-food scheme, to those who were prepared, it seems, to take a slice of money that ought to have gone to malnourished Iraqis.

Mr Duelfer’s report gives a long list of those believed to have received vouchers, including the Russian president’s office and foreign ministry, Indonesia’s outgoing president, Megawati Sukarnoputri, and Charles Pasqua, a former French interior minister. However, some of those named may have received vouchers legitimately and some may not have cashed in their vouchers. The report stresses that it is not seeking to judge those named. The allegations of fraud in the oil-for-food programme are being investigated separately by a commission headed by Paul Volcker, a former head of America’s Federal Reserve.

The ISG’s conclusion that Saddam no longer had illegal weaponry is bound to strengthen the conviction of those who think President George Bush and his allies launched a war on false premises. However, the war’s backers will feel vindicated by the inspectors’ revelations about Saddam’s apparent intent to use bribery to get sanctions lifted and then get back to work on his weapons programmes (as well as his continuing quest for long-range missile technology). Mike McCurry, an adviser to Mr Bush’s Democratic contender, John Kerry, said the report “is a very significant commentary on the mistaken case for war presented by this administration”. Mr Bush, in contrast, insisted on Wednesday that there had been “a real risk” that Saddam could have passed weapons, materials or information on weapons-making to terrorist networks, and that this “was a risk we could not afford to take.”

By 2002, Saddam was convinced that sanctions had all but collapsed. But if he no longer had any militarily useful weapons to speak of (reports that he spirited some into Syria before the war remain unproven), why did he not do more to show this? The answer seems to be that his wish to get inspectors off his back, by ceasing to produce illicit arms, conflicted with his conviction that being thought to possess such weapons had preserved his regime—in his disastrous war with Iran during the 1980s, in keeping the Americans from toppling him in 1991 after they had pushed the Iraqis out of Kuwait, and in terrorising internal foes, especially Shias and Kurds. So if the world got it wrong, Saddam got it wronger: his bluffing over what have turned out to be nonexistent weapons has left him out of power and in jail.

Nbadan
10-07-2004, 11:49 AM
OK, but this article really doesn't add anything new to the rational already in Duck's article.

Marcus Bryant
10-07-2004, 11:53 AM
So you have no response. This article doesn't exactly come from something like "NewsMax."

Nbadan
10-07-2004, 11:58 AM
See here (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4015)

Marcus Bryant
10-07-2004, 11:59 AM
No, I won't see there, for you are responding to a NewsMax article. Now respond to this one.

exstatic
10-07-2004, 12:07 PM
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Saddam Hussein was obsessed with his status in the Arab world, dreaming of weapons of mass destruction to pump up his prestige. And even as the United States fixated on him, he was fixated on his neighboring enemy, Iran.CNN story from yesterday (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/06/saddam.says.ap/index.html)

His interrogation was handled by the CIA. I'm sure they used all the right drugs to squeeze out the information. The irony is, if we had just waited, we probably could have seen Iran/Iraq war, part deux, solving two of our problems at zero cost to us.

Aggie Hoopsfan
10-07-2004, 12:12 PM
I just wonder how gullible people are to think Saddam didn't have any WMD when he was flinging around 10 BILLION dollars to do so.

He paid the French 1.78 billion, that explains their lack of interest. Even if he paid Russia and Germany the same, that still leaves 4 billion to play with.

You've gotta be completely naive to think he wasn't getting what he wanted.

exstatic
10-07-2004, 12:17 PM
Where are they? Syria? He wanted WMDs. That's not up for argument, but according to his CIA interrogation, he wanted them for Middle East regional prestige. Is he going to give that prestige to Syria? They've almost gone to war before over water rights to rivers that flow from Syria into Iraq.

whottt
10-07-2004, 12:25 PM
Yeah the only the thing Arabs and Muslims hate more than each other are us and Israel. They never have a problem uniting against Israel and us.

You forget Saddam willingly moved his entire airforce to Iran in the Persian Gulf War...while Iran was part of the coalition that declared war upon him.

You seem to think Syria is a bastion of honesty instead of a corrupt country with limited resources...we gave Saddam nearly 2 years to move the WMD/materials...those WMD/materials could buy him anything he wanted in the middle east in theory, including safe passage to Syria should Iraq fall.

Then again...those guys constantly betray each other...Iran never gave his airforce back .

How hard is it to see how this region of the world works? You think it's a coincidence that Iran all of a sudden has a very advanced Nuke program a year after Iraq falls?

You don't think Russia and China have given any countries in Asia nuclear weapons?

How did Pakistan get their nukes again? How did India suddenly develop a nuke program on par with ours? And how is North Korea able to get nuclear materials when they are basically bankrupt...

China and Russia, two of the countries Saddam was buying off...do yout hink those countries wanted us to increase our influence in the middle east? You don't think Iraq and Iran having nukes serves their interests in the middle east? And really Europes interests as well.

Take a look around...at who is opposing us in Europe, look at who was benefitting from the sanctions...look at who the nuclear proliferators are. Look at how fast these countries are developing nuclear programs after years of nothing.

And just what were those Russian diplomats doing in Iraq at that stage of our invasion?

exstatic
10-07-2004, 12:33 PM
Then again...those guys constantly betray each other...Iran never gave his airforce back .
You just made my point for me. He'd never see them again, and he knew it, so WHY would he give them away? He's a megalomaniac.

whottt
10-07-2004, 12:41 PM
He may be a megalomaniac but he still hates Israel and us more than he does any Arab nation. Besides...if he got the materials once he could get them again from the same sources. A lot easier probably. What was he supposed to do? Keep them there so we could justify our war?

What would you do if you were Saddam? And if you were Saddam why would you ever stop developing WMD when you had bought off the UN and nukes were the key to keeping your soverignity?

Aggie Hoopsfan
10-07-2004, 12:52 PM
I guess he figured if he was going down, was it better to give the man and family he hates (Bush) credibility by leaving his WMD out there for us to find, or to have the "last laugh" by sending his weapons to Syria and/or Iran and watching the media sharks shred Bush over no weapons being found.

Yonivore
10-07-2004, 02:37 PM
Bottom line...he had them, he used them, he wanted more, it's good he's gone.

JoeChalupa
10-07-2004, 04:57 PM
woulda, coulda, shoulda, dubya

spurster
10-07-2004, 09:56 PM
The main rationale for war was that Iraq had stockpiles of WMDs now and nuclear weapons soon. You can harp on Saddam wanting the moon, but Saddam wanting something is only good enough for the hard core Bush followers.

Yonivore
10-07-2004, 10:02 PM
There was no reason not to believe he had them.

I suggest you read Duelfer's report -- all 450 pages, but particularly the introduction -- before you see it as some condemnation of the President's decision.

In fact, it pretty much legitimizes the decision to topple the regime. It also is pretty damning to the U.N., France, Russia, and Germany. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Marcus Bryant
10-07-2004, 10:06 PM
Well was not Saddam the man a part of that equation? It was a bit more than just "Iraq" being in possession of WMDs. It was certainly the fact that he had showed himself to have no problem using such weapons which was vital for Iraq to even be a problem in the first place.

And again, the intelligence at the time had Iraq in possession of WMDs, something which every other major intel agency in the world believed and it was what the Clinton administration believed for years.

Going by your standard, this nation could never act until everything was fully justified. How long would that take? It was not the Bush administration which adopted a policy of regime change with respect to Hussein it was the Clinton administration.

Lest we forget that our "allies" were being bribed by Hussein in order to thwart our efforts to verify with 100% accuracy what he had.

What you are advocating sounds great as far as an academic study, but in this case a decision had to be made and without full verification.

Marcus Bryant
10-07-2004, 10:16 PM
Basically, the US did not know with full verification what Hussein had because he had been less than cooperative for well over a decade with the weapons inspections. He had been in violation of a multitude of UN resolutions.

Hussein had bought himself some votes on the UN Security Council to thwart those efforts, largely in part through the UN Oil for Food program.

So you as US president, what exactly do you do? Do you allow it to continue, knowing full well that the UN sanctions are being circumvented and becoming worthless? Do you wait, here at a time when 18 months prior your nation suffered the worst terrorist attack in its history with close to 3,000 murdered on your soil by a fanatical enemy, one who has demonstrated that they will stop at nothing, including suicide missions, to attack you? Do you wait to continue to play the UN game with Hussein's lackeys while perhaps he possesses WMDs and yes, nukes or is in the process of creating them? You, again, do not know because he has not been in compliance and getting him in compliance again, runs into the influence he has bought at the UN.

Again, you don't know with omnipotent accuracy the situation because that is the way it is, not the way we can sit back with 20/20 hindsight and critique because it's a presidential election year and we don't necessarily agree with the president's domestic politics.

The president's opponents in this election both agreed with the president's assessment that the Hussein regime was indeed a serious threat to this nation and they had access to the same information that the president had. Now if they are not able to make a right decision given imperfect information perhaps they should not be elected either. But of course they had to please the extremist elements in their party so they switched from supporting the invasion to opposing it. Both clearly understood that if the president did not get UN approval the United States would invade.

Bush made the right call, given the less than perfect information, a situation he was in due to the efforts of Hussein and Hussein's friends in the UN.

The subject matter of Powell's speech to the UN (http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/02/20030205-1.html) dealt with more than just the alleged "stockpiles". It covered Hussein's years of uncooperation with the weapons inspections. To say that the main justification for the war was solely the "stockpiles" is a tad bit misleading.



POWELL: This council placed the burden on Iraq to comply and disarm and not on the inspectors to find that which Iraq has gone out of its way to conceal for so long. Inspectors are inspectors; they are not detectives.

I asked for this session today for two purposes: First, to support the core assessments made by Dr. Blix and Dr. ElBaradei. As Dr. Blix reported to this council on January 27th, quote, ``Iraq appears not to have come to a genuine acceptance, not even today, of the disarmament which was demanded of it,'' unquote.

And as Dr. ElBaradei reported, Iraq's declaration of December 7, quote, ``did not provide any new information relevant to certain questions that have been outstanding since 1998.''

POWELL: My second purpose today is to provide you with additional information, to share with you what the United States knows about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction as well as Iraq's involvement in terrorism, which is also the subject of Resolution 1441 and other earlier resolutions.

Nbadan
10-08-2004, 02:54 AM
You seem to think Syria is a bastion of honesty instead of a corrupt country with limited resources...we gave Saddam nearly 2 years to move the WMD/materials...those WMD/materials could buy him anything he wanted in the middle east in theory, including safe passage to Syria should Iraq fall.

Woah...talk about conspiracy theories....we are in full tin-hat area here.

Nbadan
10-08-2004, 03:00 AM
How hard is it to see how this region of the world works? You think it's a coincidence that Iran all of a sudden has a very advanced Nuke program a year after Iraq falls?

Um...actually, Iran has supposedly had a clandestine advanced Nuclear program the whole time according to sources in the administration. The only reason Iran is getting any attention on the nuclear front now is because they are a year away from completing their first operational Nuclear complex.

Politics could also be a play here given the both the Lukids in Israel and the Neocons in America are in danger of being voted out of office.

Nbadan
10-08-2004, 03:11 AM
China and Russia, two of the countries Saddam was buying off...do yout hink those countries wanted us to increase our influence in the middle east? You don't think Iraq and Iran having nukes serves their interests in the middle east? And really Europes interests as well.

Last I checked, Russia and China are a lot closer to the Middle East and Iran than the U.S. is. We pretty much know that a U.S. allied in the war on terrorism, Pakistan, helped North Korea develop some of its advanced nuclear weapons programs.

Nbadan
10-08-2004, 03:17 AM
I guess he figured if he was going down, was it better to give the man and family he hates (Bush) credibility by leaving his WMD out there for us to find, or to have the "last laugh" by sending his weapons to Syria and/or Iran and watching the media sharks shred Bush over no weapons being found

:lol

Yeah, Saddam stuck his neck out by sending his WMD's to Syria or Iran to get back at Bush.

Nbadan
10-08-2004, 03:24 AM
There was no reason not to believe he had them.

Do you have A.D.D. or something?


...CNN reports today, the Duelfer Report found "no evidence that Iraq produced any weapons of mass destruction after 1991" and that "Saddam did not have chemical and biological stockpiles when the war began and his nuclear capabilities were deteriorating, not advancing." (and that latter reference is only to the capability to initiate a nuclear weapons program; this capability was diminishing, and there was nothing close to a nuclear weapon in Iraq)

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/10/06/iraq.wmd.repo)

Of course, it's not FAUX News so, what do they know right?

Nbadan
10-08-2004, 04:51 AM
What we are really seeing is another evolution in the administrations ever changing rational for attacking Iraq in the first place


If it weren't so sad (and tragic), it would truly be funny to watch the White House scrounge around for even the most ridiculous retrospective rationales for war as the original ones collapse around them.

Today we have this line from the Associated

Press: "This week marks the first time that the Bush administration has listed abuses in the oil-for-fuel program as an Iraq war rationale."

That's the new casus belli -- corruption in the oil-for-food program.

You can't make this stuff up.

Or, rather, I guess you can make this stuff. Since they are making it up.

In post-9/11 world, we can't stand idly by while third-world politicians take bribes and kickbacks!

The whole thing makes me feel not only sorry for my country but also sorry for the Kerry campaign's strategists and opposition researchers because what sort of supple and outside-box mind can possibly predict what arguments the president and his advisors will come up with next?

War was justified because not enough schools and hospitals were open before the invasion.

War was justified by back taxes owed to Kuwait by Iraqi occupation soldiers stationed in Kuwait during the second half of 1990.

War was justified by Iraqi mendacity in fooling Americans into thinking that they had WMD.

War was justified because the UN had to be freed up to work on East Timor and Sudan.

War was justified because Kuwait is still called Iraq's "19th province" in the Encyclopedia Iraqiana.

War was justified because Saddam was discriminating against faith-based organizations in handing out government contracts ...

-- Josh Marshall

Talking Points Memo (http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/week_2004_10_03.php#003612)

Truer words have rarely been spoken.

Marcus Bryant
10-08-2004, 08:25 AM
...CNN reports today, the Duelfer Report found "no evidence that Iraq produced any weapons of mass destruction after 1991" and that "Saddam did not have chemical and biological stockpiles when the war began and his nuclear capabilities were deteriorating, not advancing." (and that latter reference is only to the capability to initiate a nuclear weapons program; this capability was diminishing, and there was nothing close to a nuclear weapon in Iraq)


What part of that quote indicates that it was fully known what Hussein had in the way of WMDs back in early 2003?

Perhaps you have ADD.

Marcus Bryant
10-08-2004, 08:32 AM
In post-9/11 world, we can't stand idly by while third-world politicians take bribes and kickbacks!


Not when they are preventing a full accounting of what a certain regime had in the way of WMDs. A regime that for over a decade had failed to account for what it had done with its weapons systems, a responsibility which it agreed to when hostilities ceased at the end of the original Gulf War. Not when they have a vested interest in keeping that regime in power, a regime which had made it abundantly clear that it had no problem with using WMDs which it developed or procured.

It's no surprise that original quote comes from a man who hasn't had to make a professional decision based upon imperfect information in his life. Far easier to kick back and second guess politicians he doesn't like.