Bruce VS AJ whose number would you rather see retired?

[whottt]

A little background info on this topic:

Bruce Bowen:

When Bruce Bowen came the Spurs he originally signed for $700,000 for 1 year and an opportunity to compete for a starting role, which he then won fair and square. Bruce turned down a much larger contract from the Miami Heat for this opportunity.

Bruce was signed for one main reason and one main reason only...

Because the prior season the Avery Johnson lead(don't want to piss off the AJ fans by witholding credit for his leadership) Spurs suffered the most humiliating loss in Western Conference Finals history...Getting swept with HCA by the largest average margin of defeat of any team in Western Conference History by the LA Lakers. The major culprits in this humiliation were Kobe Bryant who averaged @ 35PPG against us and Derek Fisher(who set an NBA record for 3pt PCT in a WCF against us).

During Bruce's first year with the team Bruce broke his finger and the Spurs, who were 25-8 at the time, proceeded to drop 12 of their next 23 games.

The Spurs went on to again win 58 games and meet the Lakers in the semi finals. Even though the Spurs again lost that series due to a lack of slashing guards and outside shooting...Kobe Bryant was not near as dominant, the Spurs won a game on the Lakers home court and held a double digit lead entering the 4th quarter of every game.

Bruce was resigned the following year at a fair market value that still left the Spurs flexibility. The Spurs promoted Stephen Jackson to the starting lineup, traded to get Steve Kerr back and added a crazy Argentine by the name of Manu. Bruce went on to make second team all NBA defense and have a virtuoso defensive performance against Kobe Bryant(including one game where he matched Kobe's scoring) and the Spurs went onto win the NBA championship beating the defending champion Lakers in the process.

Since that time Bruce has become an integral part of the soul of the team, routinely guarding the opponents' most dominant perimeter player, regardless of size. And has continued to racked up All NBA defensive awards.

Prior to last years title run, Bruce opted out of his contract at the benefit of the Spurs, taking essnetially a paycut for longer years, and freeing up much needed money to resign Manu and additional players like Brent Barry.



Avery Johnson:

Avery was a fucking scrub who couldn't even hold down a 3rd string role on any team...he was passed around the NBA like a 2 dollar whore, including a season playing for the Rockets which was the only season of Hakeem's career that he was healthy and did not make the playoffs.

No one was trying to sign Avery Johnson and he was lucky to have a freaking job....


The Spurs PG position was in the absolute toilet and basically the Spurs were forced to either resign AJ, or else continue using Vinny Del Negro at point...

David Robinson was able to cover up AJ's total lack of any semblance of an NBA game and AJ finally found a job in the NBA far exceeding his actual ability.

The Spurs gave AJ the best contract he ever had and were the only team to ever consider him for an oncourt job other than ballboy.

AJ never made any ALL NBA teams of any kind and routinely got fucking worked by which PG he was guaurding.

He did however lead the David Robinsonless Gregg Popovich coached 96-97 Spurs to the worst record in team history. And Tim Duncan.

But as a player...

About the only guys AJ intimidated were rookies in the shower...

Avery eventually sucked so bad the Spurs had to pulls his worthless butt out of the starting lineup which then lead to one of the whiniest cenceriest incidents in Spurs history...


At the end of that season AJ was again given an important role against the LA Lakers and Avery responded with a buttload of scorless and assistless games and making Derek Fisher look like a Hall of Famer.


AJ then took his worthless ass to ride the bench in Denver leading them to thew worst record in the NBA...many felt he was now holding the Spurs responsible for his total lack of NBA game and ability.

Tim Duncan and David Robinson were seen helping AJ pack his bags and hodling the door open for him as he left town.


After a superb lottery year in Denver...

AJ hit the bigtime again as chief nutrider for the Mavericks before they too realiaed he had absolutely no freaking game and traded his worthless azz.

Since then AJ took the highest paying job he could get against one of the Spurs most notorious enemies and is insidiously now trying use his knowledge gained a trusted member of the team, to fuck his old team out of winning another title in their golden age.


He whines in the media, runs up the score and tries to capitalize on the bad repution Bruce has gained in winning US titles, so that he can get that over rated piece of crap Mark Cuban an NBA title.



That's the breakdown given to you as objectively as I possibly can...

You decide...whose jersey would you rather see hanging up there in the rafters.

[timvp]

This needed a new thread why?

[Kori Ellis]

This needed a new thread why?

Because Whottt's mom didn't give him enough attention as a child.

By the way, to answer the poll ...

BRUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCE!

[T Park]

Bruce Bowen.


Cause if he was the opposing coach, he would NOT run up the score :flipoff

[timvp]

Steve Javie should have his jersey retired.

[T Park]

Because Whottt's mom didn't give him enough attention as a child.



So when he walks by, are you gonna pull a Raja Bell's mom, and say "Need a hug?" :lol

[samikeyp]

Billy Paultz.

[ShoogarBear]

You forgot to add the part about Avery making Bruce stay and scrub the floors while he went off to the ball.

[mookie2001]

avery has changed, he used to be a fun guy who smiled all the time, now he just seems like a pompus asshole
shit i bet he votes republican too
alot of that probably has to do with him being a head coach, but as of now, he deserves it more than bowen

[Gummi]

I put Bruce even though his number won't be retired. He's not in Gervin's, Elliott's, Robinson's, Silas', Gilmore's, and Moore's class.

[J.T.]

Bruce, mosdef. Fuck Avery.

[A-Train]

Both.

Both AJ and Bruce Bowen set the tone for their respective teams, both typify their eras in Spurs Basketball and championship teams. No, neither was (or will be) an All-Star, but both were crucial in winning championships, and for that they should see their jersey #'s retired.

[timvp]

whottt* gets owned in one poll thread so he has to start another.

Weak.

[Nbadan]

Avery. Let Bruce start coaching and succeed and we'll poll again.

[whottt]

This poll is to see where Bruce rates VS another fan favorite....


I personally do think Bowen's jersey should be retired. Bruce is in some elite company with his consecutive All NBA Team Awards...

[whottt]

whottt should get his jersey retired for stirring Nbadan out of the political forum to make his annual NBA related post.

[ShoogarBear]

No, this is therapeutic. The next poll in the whottt's demons series will have to involve the Coyote.

[FromWayDowntown]

Frankly, I don't think either of them should have a number retired; in most cities, they wouldn't even be remotely considered for that sort of honor, given their resumes.

But, since the Spurs have significantly reduced the credentials necessary for having a number retired and both seem to have credentials that resemble those of the players already honored, precedent makes it hard to argue against either.

[CosmicCowboy]

A little background info on this topic:

Bruce Bowen:

When Bruce Bowen came the Spurs he originally signed for $700,000 for 1 year and an opportunity to compete for a starting role, which he then won fair and square. Bruce turned down a much larger contract from the Miami Heat for this opportunity.

Bruce was signed for one main reason and one main reason only...

Because the prior season the Avery Johnson lead(don't want to piss off the AJ fans by witholding credit for his leadership) Spurs suffered the most humiliating loss in Western Conference Finals history...Getting swept with HCA by the largest average margin of defeat of any team in Western Conference History by the LA Lakers. The major culprits in this humiliation were Kobe Bryant who averaged @ 35PPG against us and Derek Fisher(who set an NBA record for 3pt PCT in a WCF against us).

During Bruce's first year with the team Bruce broke his finger and the Spurs, who were 25-8 at the time, proceeded to drop 12 of their next 23 games.

The Spurs went on to again win 58 games and meet the Lakers in the semi finals. Even though the Spurs again lost that series due to a lack of slashing guards and outside shooting...Kobe Bryant was not near as dominant, the Spurs won a game on the Lakers home court and held a double digit lead entering the 4th quarter of every game.

Bruce was resigned the following year at a fair market value that still left the Spurs flexibility. The Spurs promoted Stephen Jackson to the starting lineup, traded to get Steve Kerr back and added a crazy Argentine by the name of Manu. Bruce went on to make second team all NBA defense and have a virtuoso defensive performance against Kobe Bryant(including one game where he matched Kobe's scoring) and the Spurs went onto win the NBA championship beating the defending champion Lakers in the process.

Since that time Bruce has become an integral part of the soul of the team, routinely guarding the opponents' most dominant perimeter player, regardless of size. And has continued to racked up All NBA defensive awards.

Prior to last years title run, Bruce opted out of his contract at the benefit of the Spurs, taking essnetially a paycut for longer years, and freeing up much needed money to resign Manu and additional players like Brent Barry.



Avery Johnson:

Avery was a fucking scrub who couldn't even hold down a 3rd string role on any team...he was passed around the NBA like a 2 dollar whore, including a season playing for the Rockets which was the only season of Hakeem's career that he was healthy and did not make the playoffs.

No one was trying to sign Avery Johnson and he was lucky to have a freaking job....


The Spurs PG position was in the absolute toilet and basically the Spurs were forced to either resign AJ, or else continue using Vinny Del Negro at point...

David Robinson was able to cover up AJ's total lack of any semblance of an NBA game and AJ finally found a job in the NBA far exceeding his actual ability.

The Spurs gave AJ the best contract he ever had and were the only team to ever consider him for an oncourt job other than ballboy.

AJ never made any ALL NBA teams of any kind and routinely got fucking worked by which PG he was guaurding.

He did however lead the David Robinsonless Gregg Popovich coached 96-97 Spurs to the worst record in team history. And Tim Duncan.

But as a player...

About the only guys AJ intimidated were rookies in the shower...

Avery eventually sucked so bad the Spurs had to pulls his worthless butt out of the starting lineup which then lead to one of the whiniest cenceriest incidents in Spurs history...


At the end of that season AJ was again given an important role against the LA Lakers and Avery responded with a buttload of scorless and assistless games and making Derek Fisher look like a Hall of Famer.


AJ then took his worthless ass to ride the bench in Denver leading them to thew worst record in the NBA...many felt he was now holding the Spurs responsible for his total lack of NBA game and ability.

Tim Duncan and David Robinson were seen helping AJ pack his bags and hodling the door open for him as he left town.


After a superb lottery year in Denver...

AJ hit the bigtime again as chief nutrider for the Mavericks before they too realiaed he had absolutely no freaking game and traded his worthless azz.

Since then AJ took the highest paying job he could get against one of the Spurs most notorious enemies and is insidiously now trying use his knowledge gained a trusted member of the team, to fuck his old team out of winning another title in their golden age.


He whines in the media, runs up the score and tries to capitalize on the bad repution Bruce has gained in winning US titles, so that he can get that over rated piece of crap Mark Cuban an NBA title.



That's the breakdown given to you as objectively as I possibly can...

You decide...whose jersey would you rather see hanging up there in the rafters.

:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao;lmao

Sorry TimVP but that was some funny shit there...

[whottt]

I'd just like to remind everyone that Bruce Bowen probably reads this forum....I personally think Bruce got hurt feelings at the absolute lack of support from Spursfans when AJ punked him in the media...

Now is your chance to atone for deserting Bruce if you were one of the ones that didn't speak up when the incident initially occurred and left Bruce all alone to get savaged brutally in the media...didi you get Bruce's back? or did you tut tut the incident away?

Or to put it another way...a vote for Bruce is a vote for victory. :fro

It'll be interesting to see who wants an NBA title...and remember...Bruce just might be watching.

Avery? Well he's probably not concerned too much with San Antonio...he's got bigger fish to fry you know.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

whottttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttttt's vbookie?

[BruceBowen12]

:madrun

[FromWayDowntown]

Hey Bruce: YOU'RE THE MAN!!

F' AJ!

Keep showing them your hands, baby!

[BruceBowen12]

thanks

[CosmicCowboy]

I'd just like to remind everyone that Bruce Bowen probably reads this forum....I personally think Bruce got hurt feelings at the absolute lack of support from Spursfans when AJ punked him in the media...

Now is your chance to atone for deserting Bruce if you were one of the ones that didn't speak up when the incident initially occurred and left Bruce all alone to get savaged brutally in the media...didi you get Bruce's back? or did you tut tut the incident away?

Or to put it another way...a vote for Bruce is a vote for victory. :fro

It'll be interesting to see who wants an NBA title...and remember...Bruce just might be watching.

Avery? Well he's probably not concerned too much with San Antonio...he's got bigger fish to fry you know.


Jeez Whottt...the first post was funny but you just cyber-sucked Bruce's dick on that one...

I really don't think he could give a rats ass what posters in here think...

[FromWayDowntown]

thanks

:tu

[ponky]

neither, i'd rather see AJ's number retired as a maverick...i guess some spurs fans don't remember the 99 championship and how it was won

[BruceBowen12]

neither, i'd rather see AJ's number retired as a maverick...i guess some spurs fans don't remember the 99 championship and how it was won
Golden State Warrior!

[FromWayDowntown]

neither, i'd rather see AJ's number retired as a maverick...i guess some spurs fans don't remember the 99 championship and how it was won

Tim Duncan, right?

I'll agree with whottt to this extent: I think that one could argue that at least 3 or 4 Spurs played bigger roles in the 1999 run than Avery Johnson.

Tim Duncan and David Robinson are givens. David played Shaq well in Round 2 that year and held the fort at times against Portland when Tim was ineffective because of Rasheed Wallace. David also intensified that team a bit with his melee in Minnesota that year.

Sean Elliott was a monsterous part of that run with his defense on Kobe in Round 2 and Sprewell in the Finals, to say nothing of his Memorial Day Miracle.

Mario Elie gave a relatively soft team a very, very hard edge in mid-March and that team never looked back from a bad loss to Utah.

And, Jaren Jackson hit 3's like they were going out of style in LA and Portland to help put those series to bed early and advance the Spurs past any real strife.

AJ was steady and he hit the last shot of the Finals, but it's hardly as if he did it with time running down on the game clock. What sealed the Finals wasn't so much that shot as it was the Spurs' defense. And I think one would be hard-pressed to say that AJ was ever the face of that effort.

AJ will always be a key part of the Spurs first title team and I will always hold him in high regard for the manner in which he comported himself publicly and the way in which he worked to become the player who was a key part of that title team. Those were fun days to be a Spurs fan. As are these.

[picnroll]

Neither, i'd rather see AJ's number retired as a maverick...i guess some spurs fans don't remember the 99 championship and how it was won
I remember. The toughest foe talentwise by far the Spurs faced that year was Portland. We were about to lose homecourt advantage in the second game when Sean hit the Memorial Day Miracle. Avery hit a baseline chippy, true an accomplishment for him, in a series where the NY Knicks were deadmen walking.

[ponky]

Golden State Warrior!

don't forget to include NVE!

[timvp]

I remember. The toughest foe talentwise by far the Spurs faced that year was Portland. We were about to lose homecourt advantage in the second game when Sean hit the Memorial Day Miracle. Avery hit a baseline chippy, true an accomplishment for him, in a series where the NY Knicks were deadmen walking.

Who hit the jumpers to bring the Spurs back? Without AJ scoring in the fourth, there would have been no MDM.

:smokin :drunk

[A-Train]

If you're going to make the argument that BB should have his # retired, then it's rather difficult to exclude AJ.

[tlongII]

I would rather see Bruce Bowen retire.

[FromWayDowntown]

Who hit the jumpers to bring the Spurs back? Without AJ scoring in the fourth, there would have been no MDM.

:smokin :drunk

If Stoudemire hadn't shot 7-15 that day, there might not have been an MDM, either.

[tlongII]

Would you people SHUT THE FUCK UP about the Memorial Day Miracle already! Sheesh.

[ShoogarBear]

Frankly, I don't think either of them should have a number retired; in most cities, they wouldn't even be remotely considered for that sort of honor, given their resumes.

But, since the Spurs have significantly reduced the credentials necessary for having a number retired and both seem to have credentials that resemble those of the players already honored, precedent makes it hard to argue against either.
Actually, in many cities the resumes don't have to be very thick at all. And there are more than a few flat-out jokes amongst the retired numbers.

Here is a list of the retired numbers (or otherwise retired memorabilia) for NBA teams. I have annoted the ones I personally consider as questionable with *, and the flat-out jokes with **.

One way to get your number retired if you're not great is to just play a long time with a sucky team. Another appears to be dying while still an active player.


Hawks: Lou Hudson, Bob Pettit, Dominique Wilkins

Celtics: Robert Parish, Walter Brown (owner), Red Auerbach (coach), Dennis Johnson, Bill Russell, Jo Jo White, Bob Cousy, Tom Heinsohn, Tom Sanders*, John Havlicek, Dave Cowens, Jim Loscutoff**, Don Nelson*, Bill Sharman, Ed Macaley, Frank Ramsey, Sam Jones, K.C. Jones*, Cedric Maxwell*, Kevin McHale, Larry Bird, Reggie Lewis**

Bobcats: none

Bulls: Jerry Sloan, Bob Love, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen

Cavaliers: Bingo Smith, Larry Nance, Mark Price, Austin Carr, Nate Thurmond**[played with Cleveland 114 games!], Brad Daugherty

Mavericks: Brad Davis, Rolando Blackman

Nuggets: Alex English, David Thompson, Bryon Beck**, Dan Issel, Doug Moe

Pistons: Chuck Daly, Joe Dumars, Isiah Thomas, Vinnie Johnson, Bob Lanier, Dave Bing, Bill Laimbeer

Warriors: Wilt Chamberlain, Tom Meschery**, Al Attles*, Rich Barry, Nate Thurmond

Rockets: Clyde Drexler**, Calvin Murphy, Moses Malone, Hakeem Olajuwon, Rudy Tomjanovich

Pacers: George McGinnis, Mel Daniels, Roger Brown, Slick Leonard

Clippers: none

Lakers: Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy, Jerry West, Chick Hearn

Grizzlies: none

Heat: Michael Jordan******** [single biggest joke of all-time, and maybe the single most embarrassing moment in sports history]

Bucks: Oscar Robertson, Junior Bridgeman*, Sidney Moncrief, Jon McGlocklin*, Bob Lanier, Brian Winters, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Timberwolves: Malik Sealy* [died after 113 games with Twolves]

Nets: Drazen Petorvic, Wendell Ladner** [died after 25 games with Nets], John Williamson, Bill Melchionni*, Julius Erving, Buck Williams

Hornets: Pete Maravich********* [another joke, he never played for them, they retired the number after they moved to N.O.], Bobby Phills*

Knicks: Walt Frazier, Dick Barnett, Earl Monroe, Dick McGuire*, Willis Reed, Dave DeBusschere, Bill Bradley, Patrick Ewing, Red Holzman

Magic: Fans******** [second biggest all-time joke]

76ers: Julius Erving, Maurice Cheeks, Wilt Chamberlain, Hal Greer, Bobby Jones, Billy Cunningham, Charles Barkley, Dave Zinkoff

Suns: Dick van Arsdale, Walter Davis, Kevin Johnson, Dan Majerle, Tom Chambers, Alvan Adams, Charles Barkley, Connie Hawkins, Pual Westphal

Trail Blazers: Larry Weinberg, Dave Twardzik*, Larry Steele, Maurice Lucas, Clyde Drexler, Bill Walton, Lloyd Neal*, Geoff Petrie, Jack Ramsay

Kings: Nate Archibald, Mitch Richmond, Sixth Man (fan)*******, Bob Davies, Maurice Stokes, Oscar Robertson, Jack Twyman, Sam Lacey

Spurs: Johnny Moore*, James Silas, George Gervin, David Robinson, Sean Elliotttt

SuperSonics: Gus Williams, Nate McMillan, Lenny Wilkens, Fred Brown, Jack Sikma, Bob Blackburn (broadcaster)

Raptors: none

Jazz: Frank Layden, Pete Maravich, John Stockton, Jeff Hornacek, Darrell Griffith, Mark Eaton

Wizards: Elvin Hayes, Gus Johnson, Wes Unseld

[tlongII]

Actually, in many cities the resumes don't have to be very thick at all. And there are more than a few flat-out jokes amongst the retired numbers.

Here is a list of the retired numbers (or otherwise retired memorabilia) for NBA teams. I have annoted the ones I personally consider as questionable with *, and the flat-out jokes with **.

One way to get your number retired if you're not great is to just play a long time with a sucky team. Another appears to be dying while still an active player.


Hawks: Lou Hudson, Bob Pettit, Dominique Wilkins

Celtics: Robert Parish, Walter Brown (owner), Red Auerbach (coach), Dennis Johnson, Bill Russell, Jo Jo White, Bob Cousy, Tom Heinsohn, Tom Sanders*, John Havlicek, Dave Cowens, Jim Loscutoff**, Don Nelson*, Bill Sharman, Ed Macaley, Frank Ramsey, Sam Jones, K.C. Jones*, Cedric Maxwell*, Kevin McHale, Larry Bird, Reggie Lewis**

Bobcats: none

Bulls: Jerry Sloan, Bob Love, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen

Cavaliers: Bingo Smith, Larry Nance, Mark Price, Austin Carr, Nate Thurmond**[played with Cleveland 114 games!], Brad Daugherty

Mavericks: Brad Davis, Rolando Blackman

Nuggets: Alex English, David Thompson, Bryon Beck**, Dan Issel, Doug Moe

Pistons: Chuck Daly, Joe Dumars, Isiah Thomas, Vinnie Johnson, Bob Lanier, Dave Bing, Bill Laimbeer

Warriors: Wilt Chamberlain, Tom Meschery**, Al Attles*, Rich Barry, Nate Thurmond

Rockets: Clyde Drexler**, Calvin Murphy, Moses Malone, Hakeem Olajuwon, Rudy Tomjanovich

Pacers: George McGinnis, Mel Daniels, Roger Brown, Slick Leonard

Clippers: none

Lakers: Wilt Chamberlain, Elgin Baylor, Gail Goodrich, Magic Johnson, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, James Worthy, Jerry West, Chick Hearn

Grizzlies: none

Heat: Michael Jordan******** [single biggest joke of all-time, and maybe the single most embarrassing moment in sports history]

Bucks: Oscar Robertson, Junior Bridgeman*, Sidney Moncrief, Jon McGlocklin*, Bob Lanier, Brian Winters, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar

Timberwolves: Malik Sealy* [died after 113 games with Twolves]

Nets: Drazen Petorvic, Wendell Ladner** [died after 25 games with Nets], John Williamson, Bill Melchionni*, Julius Erving, Buck Williams

Hornets: Pete Maravich********* [another joke, he never played for them, they retired the number after they moved to N.O.], Bobby Phills*

Knicks: Walt Frazier, Dick Barnett, Earl Monroe, Dick McGuire*, Willis Reed, Dave DeBusschere, Bill Bradley, Patrick Ewing, Red Holzman

Magic: Fans******** [second biggest all-time joke]

76ers: Julius Erving, Maurice Cheeks, Wilt Chamberlain, Hal Greer, Bobby Jones, Billy Cunningham, Charles Barkley, Dave Zinkoff

Suns: Dick van Arsdale, Walter Davis, Kevin Johnson, Dan Majerle, Tom Chambers, Alvan Adams, Charles Barkley, Connie Hawkins, Pual Westphal

Trail Blazers: Larry Weinberg, Dave Twardzik*, Larry Steele, Maurice Lucas, Clyde Drexler, Bill Walton, Lloyd Neal*, Geoff Petrie, Jack Ramsay

Kings: Nate Archibald, Mitch Richmond, Sixth Man (fan)*******, Bob Davies, Maurice Stokes, Oscar Robertson, Jack Twyman, Sam Lacey

Spurs: Johnny Moore*, James Silas, George Gervin, David Robinson, Sean Elliotttt

SuperSonics: Gus Williams, Nate McMillan, Lenny Wilkens, Fred Brown, Jack Sikma, Bob Blackburn (broadcaster)

Raptors: none

Jazz: Frank Layden, Pete Maravich, John Stockton, Jeff Hornacek, Darrell Griffith, Mark Eaton

Wizards: Elvin Hayes, Gus Johnson, Wes Unseld

Twardzik, Steele, and Neal should all have two stars (**) for the Blazers.

[ponky]

The Magic retired the FANS?!?!?! Maybe that's why they keep losing. I didn't know that about the Heat/Jordan, hilarious.

[whottt]

Bulls: Jerry Sloan, Bob Love, Michael Jordan, Scottie Pippen


The Bulls get it...



The Lakers don't really have that many considering the success they've had...I think they should set the example for the Spurs.

[whottt]

Oh and Shoogar you are kind of a hardass on the death, life altering illness thing...


Is it really hard to understand why teams do that? Reggie Lewis having his jersey retired his not a joke at all.


It is funny that the Heat retired Jordan's jersey...while the Wizards haven't.

[ShoogarBear]

Twardzik, Steele, and Neal should all have two stars (**) for the Blazers.
I figured anyone who contributed to an NBA championship couldn't really get two stars. Steele also qualifies under the "played a long time with a sucky team" criterion.

[ShoogarBear]

Oh and Shoogar you are kind of a hardass on the death, life altering illness thing...


Is it really hard to understand why teams do that? Reggie Lewis having his jersey retired his not a joke at all.


It is funny that the Heat retired Jordan's jersey...while the Wizards haven't.
Yeah, in retrospect I was harsh on the Reggie Lewis one, probably because I had some proximity to that whole situation. But would the Celtics have retired his number if they had known at the time his death was due to cocaine use?

[Uncle Donnie]

:tu Great thread.

LMAO, the fact that this can even be debated shows how f'd up it would be for Avery to have his number retired.

[mookie2001]

I dont think either should have their numbers hanging
shit bruce has been here for 4 years
avery won and started a lot of games, hit a title winning shot and holds club records

avery is more deserving.

[milkyway21]

About the only guys AJ intimidated were rookies in the shower...:lmao
It never occurred to me you're so funny whott.

BRUCE BOWEN !!! :madrun

[Spurs rock]

neither, i'd rather see AJ's number retired as a maverick...i guess some spurs fans don't remember the 99 championship and how it was won

Who cares? Spurs would've still won the Championship with or without Avery's shot.

[Dunc]

AJ baby! Yeah! You guys know that one day Bowen will lead the Nuggets or Sonics into San Antonio as their coach and own your asses :lmao

[ShoogarBear]

AJ baby! Yeah! You guys know that one day Bowen will lead the Nuggets or Sonics into San Antonio as their coach and own your asses :lmaoAnd when he does we'll do the appropriate revisionist history.

Everyone will be saying they never liked Bruce while he was here anyway, and we'll point out how he only had one career playoff dunk, and then say that Kevin Willis and Tony Massenburg were the real keys to our defense.

[picnroll]

Bowen will tutor under Pop and become the Spurs head coach when Pop steps aside.

[Bloodline666]

If Stoudemire hadn't shot 7-15 that day, there might not have been an MDM, either.
Something tells me the Spurs' defense wasn't the ONLY factor in Stoudamire's bad shooting that night. Must have been Isaiah Rider's dimebag, too. :lol Or was it Rasheed's?

[NZHayden]

why did the heat retire jordans number?

[FromWayDowntown]

Something tells me the Spurs' defense wasn't the ONLY factor in Stoudamire's bad shooting that night. Must have been Isaiah Rider's dimebag, too. :lol Or was it Rasheed's?

The point was actually that Stoudemire shot the ball relatively well (nearly 50%), given the way the game was played in 1999.

[whottt]

why did the heat retire jordans number?


Stupidity...


I believe they did it as a tribute to Jordan during Jordan's final final final season.

[Reggie Miller]

Actually, in many cities the resumes don't have to be very thick at all. And there are more than a few flat-out jokes amongst the retired numbers.

Here is a list of the retired numbers (or otherwise retired memorabilia) for NBA teams. I have annoted the ones I personally consider as questionable with *, and the flat-out jokes with **.


Pacers: George McGinnis, Mel Daniels, Roger Brown, Slick Leonard




I myself would at least consider giving Leonard a * as a coach. At least two of their ABA championship teams were good enough to have won the NBA championsip (see the first three names on that list). Obviously, it takes a good coach to win any championship, but I don't think you can make an argument that Leonard is a Grade A-1 coach. That said, I have been active in the "Free Slick" movement from time to time. He's been out of coaching too long now.

As a broadcaster, he's an older version of Barkley, so I'll be pleasantly surprised if he gets in the Hall as a broadcaster. He's earned it. Many announcers call their team out; Leonard is the only one I've actually seen try to call plays from the booth when the team is imploding. It always saves me from tearing out my hair, so I gotta love the guy.

EDIT: Apparently, no one else is going to mention it so...
Reggie's 31 has also been retired and he's dating Vivica A. Fox. Now that last part may rate a few asterisks...

[Bloodline666]

Stupidity...


I believe they did it as a tribute to Jordan during Jordan's final final final season.
I'd say you're exactly right. It was also for Jordan's contributions to the league, despite Jordan never having played for the Heat.

I heard the Heat also retired Dan Marino's number for his contribution to Miami, despite the fact that he was in the NFL and not the NBA. :lol

[Reggie Miller]

I'd say you're exactly right. It was also for Jordan's contributions to the league, despite Jordan never having played for the Heat.

I heard the Heat also retired Dan Marino's number for his contribution to Miami, despite the fact that he was in the NFL and not the NBA. :lol

No that's just a rumor...

The truth is...Miami is going to assign Al Pacino a number and retire him for his role in Scarface.

[Darrin]

It would seem to me that there are a few criteria for a retired number:

- Contribution: were they around for unique times in the franchise history like Championships?
- Individual Talent: Is this a first-ballot Hall of Famer? Are they the best player in franchise history? Did they win big awards?
- Tenure: Did they spend a significant amount of time with the franchise (10 years+)
- Statistics: Are they all over the stats for the franchise history?
- Nortorious: Does the fanbase refer to them on a first-name basis?

I think Avery meets more of those criteria than Bruce Bowen.

[Darrin]

A little background info on this topic:

Bruce Bowen:

When Bruce Bowen came the Spurs he originally signed for $700,000 for 1 year and an opportunity to compete for a starting role, which he then won fair and square. Bruce turned down a much larger contract from the Miami Heat for this opportunity.

Bruce was signed for one main reason and one main reason only...

Because the prior season the Avery Johnson lead(don't want to piss off the AJ fans by witholding credit for his leadership) Spurs suffered the most humiliating loss in Western Conference Finals history...Getting swept with HCA by the largest average margin of defeat of any team in Western Conference History by the LA Lakers. The major culprits in this humiliation were Kobe Bryant who averaged @ 35PPG against us and Derek Fisher(who set an NBA record for 3pt PCT in a WCF against us).

During Bruce's first year with the team Bruce broke his finger and the Spurs, who were 25-8 at the time, proceeded to drop 12 of their next 23 games.

The Spurs went on to again win 58 games and meet the Lakers in the semi finals. Even though the Spurs again lost that series due to a lack of slashing guards and outside shooting...Kobe Bryant was not near as dominant, the Spurs won a game on the Lakers home court and held a double digit lead entering the 4th quarter of every game.

Bruce was resigned the following year at a fair market value that still left the Spurs flexibility. The Spurs promoted Stephen Jackson to the starting lineup, traded to get Steve Kerr back and added a crazy Argentine by the name of Manu. Bruce went on to make second team all NBA defense and have a virtuoso defensive performance against Kobe Bryant(including one game where he matched Kobe's scoring) and the Spurs went onto win the NBA championship beating the defending champion Lakers in the process.

Since that time Bruce has become an integral part of the soul of the team, routinely guarding the opponents' most dominant perimeter player, regardless of size. And has continued to racked up All NBA defensive awards.

Prior to last years title run, Bruce opted out of his contract at the benefit of the Spurs, taking essnetially a paycut for longer years, and freeing up much needed money to resign Manu and additional players like Brent Barry.



Avery Johnson:

Avery was a fucking scrub who couldn't even hold down a 3rd string role on any team...he was passed around the NBA like a 2 dollar whore, including a season playing for the Rockets which was the only season of Hakeem's career that he was healthy and did not make the playoffs.

No one was trying to sign Avery Johnson and he was lucky to have a freaking job....


The Spurs PG position was in the absolute toilet and basically the Spurs were forced to either resign AJ, or else continue using Vinny Del Negro at point...

David Robinson was able to cover up AJ's total lack of any semblance of an NBA game and AJ finally found a job in the NBA far exceeding his actual ability.

The Spurs gave AJ the best contract he ever had and were the only team to ever consider him for an oncourt job other than ballboy.

AJ never made any ALL NBA teams of any kind and routinely got fucking worked by which PG he was guaurding.

He did however lead the David Robinsonless Gregg Popovich coached 96-97 Spurs to the worst record in team history. And Tim Duncan.

But as a player...

About the only guys AJ intimidated were rookies in the shower...

Avery eventually sucked so bad the Spurs had to pulls his worthless butt out of the starting lineup which then lead to one of the whiniest cenceriest incidents in Spurs history...


At the end of that season AJ was again given an important role against the LA Lakers and Avery responded with a buttload of scorless and assistless games and making Derek Fisher look like a Hall of Famer.


AJ then took his worthless ass to ride the bench in Denver leading them to thew worst record in the NBA...many felt he was now holding the Spurs responsible for his total lack of NBA game and ability.

Tim Duncan and David Robinson were seen helping AJ pack his bags and hodling the door open for him as he left town.


After a superb lottery year in Denver...

AJ hit the bigtime again as chief nutrider for the Mavericks before they too realiaed he had absolutely no freaking game and traded his worthless azz.

Since then AJ took the highest paying job he could get against one of the Spurs most notorious enemies and is insidiously now trying use his knowledge gained a trusted member of the team, to fuck his old team out of winning another title in their golden age.


He whines in the media, runs up the score and tries to capitalize on the bad repution Bruce has gained in winning US titles, so that he can get that over rated piece of crap Mark Cuban an NBA title.



That's the breakdown given to you as objectively as I possibly can...

You decide...whose jersey would you rather see hanging up there in the rafters.

Did Damon Stoudamire write this?

[Reggie Miller]

It would seem to me that there are a few criteria for a retired number:

- Contribution: were they around for unique times in the franchise history like Championships?
- Individual Talent: Is this a first-ballot Hall of Famer? Are they the best player in franchise history? Did they win big awards?
- Tenure: Did they spend a significant amount of time with the franchise (10 years+)
- Statistics: Are they all over the stats for the franchise history?
- Nortorious: Does the fanbase refer to them on a first-name basis?


Those are very good criteria for any sport. The only one I might possibly add is "Multiple Roles." Some players don't quite get there as players but deserve it for player/coach, player/broadcaster, or whatever. Slick is a good example. 3 ABA Championships alone might be questionable, but that and a couple of decades in other roles merits having a # retired, no question.

[Darrin]

Those are very good criteria for any sport. The only one I might possibly add is "Multiple Roles." Some players don't quite get there as players but deserve it for player/coach, player/broadcaster, or whatever. Slick is a good example. 3 ABA Championships alone might be questionable, but that and a couple of decades in other roles merits having a # retired, no question.

I think that can be folded into tenure. Obviously guys like Chick Hearn, Red Auerbach, Cotton Fitzsimmons, Geoff Petrie, etc. get honored because they spend a lot of years in the organization.

[whottt]

It would seem to me that there are a few criteria for a retired number:

- Contribution: were they around for unique times in the franchise history like Championships?

Yes...to both, but so was Steve Smith. Bruce was part of 2 in 5 years, playing only 2 years with Duncan and Robinson.

AJ was part of 1 in 9+years, playing 4 years with Duncan and Robinson.



- Individual Talent: Is this a first-ballot Hall of Famer? Are they the best player in franchise history? Did they win big awards?

AJ: No, no, and no.
Bruce: No, no, and yes.


- Tenure: Did they spend a significant amount of time with the franchise (10 years+)

No to both....AJ was on the Spurs roster in 10 different seasons...but he was sighned late one of those years and another he was cut later in the season....



- Statistics: Are they all over the stats for the franchise history?

AJ's got the career assist mark...but that's about it. Tony'll have that in about 2 or 3 more years...around the time he is 27 or so. Meanwhile...Bruce is a year and a half away from having the career 3 point mark locked up.





- Nortorious: Does the fanbase refer to them on a first-name basis?

Yes to both...but we also refer to Shaq, Kobe, Dirk and Hakeem on a first name basis...


I think Avery meets more of those criteria than Bruce Bowen.

He's got about 1 thing that Bowen doesn't....a career mark...But Bowen's got mutiple All NBA Defensive teams.

Oh and one other thing...being the best in the league at something...

Avery was never that...Bruce has been, 3 point champ...and he's here for his D.


Wait a second...Bruce was the starting SF on the ALL NBA D Team last year...he's been the best in the league at something on both sides of the ball.

[Phenomanul]

:madrun


Be very curteous with with clubalien.... and always give him (or his 12 year old brother) an autograph at their request... he may end up holding a grudge against you if you don't. :lol :lol

[Darrin]

Yes...to both, but so was Steve Smith. Bruce was part of 2 in 5 years, playing only 2 years with Duncan and Robinson.

AJ was part of 1 in 9+years, playing 4 years with Duncan and Robinson.

Name me another player who was with Robinson longer than Avery Johnson. Steve Smith is a cheap shot at Avery. Johnson played 644 games with the Spurs. Every Player who's played that many games with the Pistons has their number retired (Joe Dumars - 1,018, Isiah Thomas - 979, Bill Laimbeer - 937, Vinnie Johnson - 798, Bob Lanier - 681, and Dave Bing - 675).



No to both....AJ was on the Spurs roster in 10 different seasons...but he was sighned late one of those years and another he was cut later in the season....

So what? He played 644 games with the Spurs.

Here's his stat line: 644 games, 6,486 points (10.1 PPG), 4,474 assists (6.9 APG), 1,222 rebounds (1.9 RPG), and 799 steals (1.24 SPG).

The Pistons have five players with that many steals - three of the five have their numbers retired (Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson). One is currently playing (Lindsey Hunter) and the other didn't do much else besides steal the ball (Chris Ford).

Only Isiah Thomas (9,061) and Joe Dumars (4,612) have more assists as Pistons, than Johnson has a Spur.



AJ's got the career assist mark...but that's about it. Tony'll have that in about 2 or 3 more years...around the time he is 27 or so. Meanwhile...Bruce is a year and a half away from having the career 3 point mark locked up.

So Avery Johnson sits at number two, and that's not worth some consideration?

1992-93: 561
1994-95: 670
1995-96: 789
1996-97: 513
1997-98: 591
1999-00: 491

That's how many seasons Avery Johnson topped Tony Parker's career high of 491 assists in a single season...as a Spur.


Yes to both...but we also refer to Shaq, Kobe, Dirk and Hakeem on a first name basis...

I don't refer to AJ, Little General, Avery with the same affection and nostalgia as I refer to Zeke, the Microwave, Worm, Dennis, Vinnie, Billy, Joe D, Big Ben, Body, the Dobber, Rip, etc. There are memories attached to that. I hear Joe DUUUUUUUUMARS as he spots up for a three when I say Joe D. I don't feel the same thing for Shaq, Kobe, Dirk, and Hakeem.

So, is Johnson affectionately referred to in San Antonio? I don't think you've addressed that question.


He's got about 1 thing that Bowen doesn't....a career mark...But Bowen's got mutiple All NBA Defensive teams.

He's also got five years on Bruce Bowen and a hellava lot more blood, sweat, and tears poored into the franchise. I don't know, maybe I'm different. But I have more respect for guys who took a chance with the organization, stuck around until they finally got it right, then a free agent who signs with a team already established as one of the premiere franchises in the league.

It's like saying, at least in my eyes, that Rasho Nesterovic had as much to do with the Spurs as David Robinson. And I'm not talking about their talent.

Or for a Pistons analogy - Rasheed Wallace had as much to do with the Pistons rise as Bill Laimbeer.


Oh and one other thing...being the best in the league at something...

Avery was never that...Bruce has been, 3 point champ...and he's here for his D.

Are you kidding? Avery Johnson is 28th all-time in assists (5,846). That means a hellava lot more to me than being able to spot shoot from the wings. That's more than Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Dennis Johnson, Dave Bing, Kenny Anderson, Walt Frazier, Steve Nash, Damon Stoudamire, Joe Dumars, Doc Rivers, Mark Price, Gus Williams, Terrell Brandon, Rick Barry, Alvin Robertson...

"Be good at one thing" They didn't call him the "Little General" for nothing.

[Texas_Ranger]

Bruce Bowen, he`s better

[whottt]

Name me another player who was with Robinson longer than Avery Johnson.

Sean Elliot



Steve Smith is a cheap shot at Avery.

There is nothing cheap about Steve Smith's shot when being compared to Avery's.




Johnson played 644 games with the Spurs. Every Player who's played that many games with the Pistons has their number retired (Joe Dumars - 1,018, Isiah Thomas - 979, Bill Laimbeer - 937, Vinnie Johnson - 798, Bob Lanier - 681, and Dave Bing - 675).

Spurs>Pistons





So what? He played 644 games with the Spurs.

And? Someone had to start at PG. If we could have changed the rules to eliminate the PG position during that era...we would have. And we were setting a good example of why the position should have been eliminated.


Here's his stat line: 644 games, 6,486 points (10.1 PPG), 4,474 assists (6.9 APG), 1,222 rebounds (1.9 RPG), and 799 steals (1.24 SPG).

The Pistons have five players with that many steals - three of the five have their numbers retired (Isiah Thomas, Joe Dumars, and Vinnie Johnson). One is currently playing (Lindsey Hunter) and the other didn't do much else besides steal the ball (Chris Ford).



That's really not that many steals...case in point...David Robinson had more and averaged more per game. The fact that our starting C averaged more SPG than our PG tells you exactly what the state of the franchise was.





Only Isiah Thomas (9,061) and Joe Dumars (4,612) have more assists as Pistons, than Johnson has a Spur.


Geezuz H...I know you aren't seriously attempting a comparison of Avery Johnson to Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars, I don't give a flying f what their assist totals are...You fellow Pistons fans are likely to run you for that one.









So Avery Johnson sits at number two, and that's not worth some consideration?


Not when you consider the fact that the guy who held the mark before
AJ had his career cut short due to a lifethreatening illness and set the mark in about 8 years.


1992-93: 561
1994-95: 670
1995-96: 789
1996-97: 513
1997-98: 591
1999-00: 491

That's how many seasons Avery Johnson topped Tony Parker's career high of 491 assists in a single season...as a Spur.


Tony Parker is also only 22 years old...Avery Johnson wasn't even in the NBA at the age of 22.

Tony Paker, in 6 more playoff games, will have started more playoff games than any PG in Spurs history...and he'll be 23 years old.




I don't refer to AJ, Little General, Avery with the same affection and nostalgia as I refer to Zeke, the Microwave, Worm, Dennis, Vinnie, Billy, Joe D, Big Ben, Body, the Dobber, Rip, etc. There are memories attached to that. I hear Joe DUUUUUUUUMARS as he spots up for a three when I say Joe D. I don't feel the same thing for Shaq, Kobe, Dirk, and Hakeem.

I refer to former Spur Rodman by one name...I call him cocksucker...that doesn't mean I want his jersey retired.


so, is Johnson affectionately referred to in San Antonio? I don't think you've addressed that question.


By some....so is Bruce.




He's also got five years on Bruce Bowen and a hellava lot more blood, sweat, and tears poored into the franchise. I don't know, maybe I'm different. But I have more respect for guys who took a chance with the organization, stuck around until they finally got it right, then a free agent who signs with a team already established as one of the premiere franchises in the league.

Um...the Spurs were a premiere franchise the day David Robinson stepped on the court...they were that way before AJ signed here, they were that way when AJ signed here, they were that way when he was replaced with a 19 year old. They became more premiere after AJ left and Bowen signed.


AJ did not take a chance with the Spurs...AJ was cut and waived and could barely hold onto a back up spot...the Spurs took a chance on AJ.

And you have your priorities...

But guys that are willing to take a paycut in order to win impress me more than any athlete doing anything else...

And Bruce didn't take the paycut to nutride...he took it for a chance to start and turned down a hell of a lot of money to do it...AJ never turned down any money.


It's like saying, at least in my eyes, that Rasho Nesterovic had as much to do with the Spurs as David Robinson. And I'm not talking about their talent.

I think you've got something in your eyes.


Or for a Pistons analogy - Rasheed Wallace had as much to do with the Pistons rise as Bill Laimbeer.

Bill Lambeir > Avery Johnson....Rasheed Wallace > Avery Johnson....Bruce Bowen > Avery Johnson...David Robinson > Avery Johnson

Rasho Neterovich > ahhhh fuck it...even I can't do that. Congrats...you are the first person to ever reach my AJ limit.








Are you kidding? Avery Johnson is 28th all-time in assists (5,846). That means a hellava lot more to me than being able to spot shoot from the wings. That's more than Larry Bird, Michael Jordan, Dennis Johnson, Dave Bing, Kenny Anderson, Walt Frazier, Steve Nash, Damon Stoudamire, Joe Dumars, Doc Rivers, Mark Price, Gus Williams, Terrell Brandon, Rick Barry, Alvin Robertson...

What was AJ's career APG outside of the Spurs...IE when he wasn't tossing it into a Center who won a scoring championship with no point guard.


"Be good at one thing" They didn't call him the "Little General" for nothing.

They called him that because he was short and bossy.


Shit...I can do that. Retire my jersey.

[Kori Ellis]

Tony Parker is also only 22 years old...Avery Johnson wasn't even in the NBA at the age of 22.

Tony Paker, in 6 more playoff games, will have started more playoff games than any PG in Spurs history...and he'll be 23 years old.

Irrelevant Note: He's 23, almost 24.

[timvp]

Rasho Neterovich > ahhhh fuck it...even I can't do that. Congrats...you are the first person to ever reach my AJ limit.

Baby steps. Slowly but surely you'll see the light.

Once upon a time you idolized Rafael Palmiero. You saw the error of your ways after a while and you will the see your errors again day you are sitting in the AT&T Center the day AJ's numbers 6 and 15 go into the rafters.

:smokin

[SpursChampsIII]

Neither

[NoMoneyDown]

Steve Javie should have his jersey retired.

In the NBA Hall of Shame :lol

[pache100]

If I have to choose between the two (WFT?)...Bruce.

[degenerate_gambler]

Neither one. Both good players within the system but hardly difference makers or types you build your team around.

I'd hate to see the exclusiveness of jerseys hanging from the rafters watered down. Johnny Moore's is debatable.

[MoSpur]

Just got here. I would much rather see Bruce's number retired. The guy has been awesome for the Spurs. His numbers will never be outstanding in the box score, but none of that matters with Bruce. Not only that. He is a great community guy.

[MadDog73]

OK, here's a legitimate question:

If we retire AJs number, what current starter's jersey shouldn't be retired as well?

Tim.
Manu.
Parker.
Horry.
Bruce.
AJ?

what's next? Rasho and Nazr?

[themvp]

Absolutely Bruce.

[ShoogarBear]

I am waiting with baited breath for the day when whottt mans up and posts his David Robinson vs. Coyote poll.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

Since Parker, Gino, and Bowen are critical parts of the Spurs success, but individually may not warrant retiring their numbers, could the Spurs retire #41 (9+12+20) with the name Brarkobili?

[Darrin]

Sean Elliot

Sean Elliott - 669
Avery Johnson - 644

Yeah, there's a huge difference there.



There is nothing cheap about Steve Smith's shot when being compared to Avery's.

It is when Steve Smith spends 2 years with the Spurs and Johnson spent 10 years.


Spurs>Pistons

In this case, no. In this case, the Pistons have retired the numbers of contributors to a Championship run. Chuck Daly - 2, Joe Dumars - 4, Isiah Thomas - 11, Vinnie Johnson - 15, and Bill Laimbeer - 40 were all retired. All spent at least 9 years with the team and were leaders on the court. We're talking about 3 Hall-of-Famers and two guys that were around for a very long time.

Vinnie Johnson - 798 games, 10,146 points (12.7 PPG), 2,661 assists (3.3 APG), 2491 rebounds (3.1 RPG), 708 steals (.89 SPG)
- Hit game-winning shot in 1990 NBA Finals on the road.

Avery Johnson - 644 games, 6,468 points (10.1 PPG), 4,474 assists (6.9 APG), 1,222 rebounds (1.9 RPG), and 799 steals (1.24 SPG).
- Hit game-winning shot in 1999 NBA Finals on the road.


Someone had to start at PG. If we could have changed the rules to eliminate the PG position during that era...we would have. And we were setting a good example of why the position should have been eliminated.

The Pistons had a guy like that - Chucky Atkins. They had mild success with him as a starter (50 wins, Central Division title). But guess what? The Pistons went out and got Chauncey Billups to replace him when Atkins became a liability. In the time that Johnson was in San Antonio, Tim Hardaway was traded from Golden State to Miami. Mark Jackson was traded from Indiana to Denver and back. Damon Stoudamire demanded top dollar in Portland.

Most of all, the Pistons never brought Chucky Atkins back after he was traded. And they had a chance to when Washington waived him earlier this year.

If San Antonio was a premiere franchise, as you claim, as soon as David Robinson arrived, then why couldn't they draw a better free agent point guard? Why would they hang onto him?


That's really not that many steals...case in point...David Robinson had more and averaged more per game. The fact that our starting C averaged more SPG than our PG tells you exactly what the state of the franchise was.

David Robinson is 140th on the all-time list for steals in the NBA. Ben Wallace has averaged more steals than any other player his entire Pistons career. That's not a sad state of affairs. That's a Hall-of-Fame defender you're comparing a "scrub" Avery Johnson to.


Geezuz H...I know you aren't seriously attempting a comparison of Avery Johnson to Isiah Thomas and Joe Dumars, I don't give a flying f what their assist totals are...You fellow Pistons fans are likely to run you for that one.

Numbers without perspective mean nothing. In terms of being a floor general, Johnson was better than Dumars. He amassed about 100 less assists in 5 more years. My fellow Pistons brethren are smart enough to realize that I was simply trying to lend some perspective to the numbers, not making Avery Johnson into a Hall-of-Famer.


Not when you consider the fact that the guy who held the mark before
AJ had his career cut short due to a lifethreatening illness and set the mark in about 8 years.

Man, you can make an excuse better than anyone else I know. He's got the mark. He did it in 10 years, as opposed to 8. Johnson played two partial seasons with the Spurs, and was handicapped by 32 games because of the lockout in 1999, or the mark would be higher. So if you want to compare and make excuses to number two, there's a good argument for AJ, too.




Tony Parker is also only 22 years old...Avery Johnson wasn't even in the NBA at the age of 22.

That actually works against Tony Parker, not AJ. When he breaks the mark, if he breaks the mark, he will have had more time to do it. The fact remains:

1st Five seasons with Spurs:
Tony Parker - 2,182 assists (394 games)
Avery Johnson - 2,273 assists (306 games)


Tony Paker, in 6 more playoff games, will have started more playoff games than any PG in Spurs history...and he'll be 23 years old.

First 5 years with Pistons:
Isiah Thomas (1982-1986) - 18 playoff games
John Salley (1987-1991) - 90 playoff games

Does that mean John Salley is better than Isiah Thomas? No, it means he played on a better team. Salley was one of the last pieces added to the Pistons before they became elite.


Um...the Spurs were a premiere franchise the day David Robinson stepped on the court...they were that way before AJ signed here, they were that way when AJ signed here, they were that way when he was replaced with a 19 year old. They became more premiere after AJ left and Bowen signed.

You are selling guys like Sean Elliott, David Robinson, and Avery Johnson short.I didn't respect the franchise. I thought they were a joke, and couldn't win a playoff series. I remember the Spurs playing in the smallest arena in the NBA and then a football stadium. I remember people waiting for David Robinson to leave them like they waited for Vince Carter to leave Toronto, Lebron James to leave Cleveland.



But guys that are willing to take a paycut in order to win impress me more than any athlete doing anything else...

That is admirable. But he realized that he was apart of something special. When guys of Michael Finley and Nick Van Exel's ilk sign for minimum salary, they aren't doing it because they feel that's all they could get. Van Exel could've gone to the hawks, for instance, for the full mid-level exception. They go there to be a part of a special team, to win an NBA title. And when I say "elite" that's what I mean. The Spurs are treated the same way the Lakers are, and that's saying something. AJ was there for that. He held on as the other pieces dropped off.


Bill Lambeir > Avery Johnson....

Bill Lambeir, sure. Bill Laimbeer on the other hand...


Rasho Neterovich > ahhhh fuck it...even I can't do that. Congrats...you are the first person to ever reach my AJ limit.

Sweeet.



What was AJ's career APG outside of the Spurs...IF when he wasn't tossing it into a Center who won a scoring championship with no point guard.

Well, there goes all the assist totals for John Stockton and Magic Johnson.


They called him that because he was short and bossy.

Shit...I can do that. Retire my jersey.

Okay, you become an extension of the coach's system, lay into anyone who doesn't conform, demand the best from your teammates, play 10 years with the Spurs, win an NBA Championship, maintain a high level of play as everyone tells you that you suck, become the 130th most proficient passer in the NBA, then, we'll discuss it.

[veronicamae]

Well your little poll doesn't sound at ALL biased, talking about AJ being a "fucking scrub" lol.

But I'd pick Bruce, because I was not a Spurs fan when AJ was playing, and I think Bruce will deserve it when he retires. :)