Bruce Bowen earns sixth consecutive All-Defensive Team honors

[kolko]

NEW YORK, May 11, 2006 – Four-time Defensive Player of the Year Ben Wallace of the Detroit Pistons highlights the 2005-06 NBA All-Defensive Teams, the NBA announced today. Making his fifth consecutive appearance on the All-Defensive First Team, Wallace is joined by leading vote-getter Bruce Bowen of the San Antonio Spurs, named to the All-Defensive Team for the sixth consecutive season.

Also selected to the First Team are forwards Andrei Kirilenko of the Utah Jazz, making his third All-Defensive Team appearance, and 2003-04 Defensive Player of the Year Ron Artest of the Sacramento Kings, named to the All-Defensive Team for the second time. Tying in votes received and rounding out the First Team are guards Kobe Bryant of the Los Angeles Lakers and Jason Kidd of the New Jersey Nets, receiving their sixth and seventh All-Defensive honors, respectively.

Wallace was the only player in the league to finish in the Top 10 in rebounding (11.3 rpg, fourth), blocks (2.2 bpg, ninth) and steals (1.8 spg, 10th). Usually assigned to the opposing team’s biggest offensive threat, Bowen’s stellar one-on-one defense helped the Spurs hold opponents to 88.8 points per game, second in the league. Kirilenko tallied an NBA-best 220 blocks this season and finished second in blocks per game (3.2). Since joining the Kings on Jan. 25, Artest posted three or more steals in 14 outings and led the squad to a 25-14 run to capture their eighth straight playoff berth. Bryant ranked ninth in the NBA in steals with 1.8 per game, while Kidd finished eighth with 1.9 steals per game while averaging 7.3 rebounds.

The NBA All-Defensive Second Team consists of Denver’s Marcus Camby, Detroit’s Chauncey Billupsand Tayshaun Prince, Minnesota’s Kevin Garnett and San Antonio’s Tim Duncan.

The voting panel consisted of the NBA’s 30 head coaches, who were asked to select NBA All-Defensive First and Second Teams by position. Coaches were not permitted to vote for players from their own team. Two points were awarded for a First Team vote and one point was awarded for a Second Team vote.

Attached are the results for the 2005-06 NBA All-Defensive Teams:

2005-06 NBA ALL-DEFENSIVE FIRST TEAM:

Bruce Bowen, San Antonio
Ben Wallace, Detroit
Andrei Kirilenko, Utah
Ron Artest, Sacramento
Kobe Bryant, L.A. Lakers
Jason Kidd, New Jersey

2005-06 NBA ALL-DEFENSIVE SECOND TEAM

Tim Duncan, San Antonio
Chauncey Billups, Detroit
Kevin Garnett, Minnesota
Marcus Camby, Denver
Tayshaun Prince, Detroit

Other players receiving votes, with point totals (First Team votes in parentheses): Rasheed Wallace, Detroit, 12 (3); Gerald Wallace, Charlotte, 11 (3); Shawn Marion, Phoenix, 11 (1); Raja Bell, Phoenix, 9 (2); Dwyane Wade, Miami, 8 (3); Kirk Hinrich, Chicago, 7 (3); Alonzo Mourning, Miami, 7 (1); Shane Battier, Memphis, 6 (1); Gilbert Arenas, Washington, 4 (1); Andre Iguodala, Philadelphia, 4; P.J. Brown, New Orleans/Okla. City, 3; Manu Ginobili, San Antonio, 3; Dwight Howard, Orlando, 3; Josh Howard, Dallas, 3 (1); Brevin Knight, Charlotte, 3; Shaquille O’Neal, Miami, 3 (1); Elton Brand, L.A. Clippers, 2 (1); LeBron James, Cleveland, 2 (1); Tony Parker, San Antonio, 2 (1); Quinton Ross, L.A. Clippers, 2 (1); Allen Iverson, Philadelphia, 2; Eddie Jones, Memphis, 2; Jason Collins, New Jersey, 1; Boris Diaw, Phoenix, 1; Pau Gasol, Memphis, 1; Trenton Hassel, Minnesota, 1; Mike James, Toronto, 1; Richard Jefferson, New Jersey, 1; Ruben Patterson, Denver, 1; Chris Paul, New Orleans/Okla. City, 1; Jason Terry, Dallas, 1; Yao Ming, Houston, 1.

http://www.nba.com/news/alldefensive_060511.html (http://www.nba.com/news/alldefensive_060511.html)

[Jimcs50]

TD on 2nd team???

That is just wrong.

[greywheel]

:lol Bruce got more points then Ben Wallace.

[picnroll]

Somebody voted Parker on the first team?

[ashbeeigh]

Bruce still owns ben Wallace, imho.

[NoMoneyDown]

:lol Bruce got more points then Ben Wallace.

Ouch!

[Texas_Ranger]

TD on 2nd team???

That is just wrong.


Perhaps, because Kirilenko got more wotes than TD

[Texas_Ranger]

Great for Bowen :spin :spin

[MoSpur]

Congrats to Bruce. He was robbed of the DPOY.

[Trainwreck2100]

TD on 2nd team???

That is just wrong.


He prob will make all NBA 2nd team too.

[SpursWoman]

:elephant @ Bowen! :)

[Winnipeg_Spur]

So there are six players on the first team, and 3 forwards, 1 guard and 1 center on the second? WTF? :wtf

What's Kidd doing on the first team, after he just got done being lit up by Anthony Johnson, anyway? Kobe's an overrated defender too, he's pretty good when he tries, but that's not often enough. Did he make any defensive impact at all against the Suns? Finally, shouldn't Rasheed be on one of those teams? Even though the stats probably don't show it, I'd take him defensively over Garnett any day of the week.

[rayray2k8]

NEW YORK, May 11, 2006 – Four-time Defensive Player of the Year Ben Wallace of the Detroit Pistons highlights the 2005-06 NBA All-Defensive Teams, the NBA announced today. Making his fifth consecutive appearance on the All-Defensive First Team, Wallace is joined by leading vote-getter Bruce Bowen of the San Antonio Spurs, named to the All-Defensive Team for the sixth consecutive season.

That sounds just about right..
But I dont get it.
If everyone picked Ben as the DPOY, why isnt he the top "vote-getter".
It just doesnt make a lick of sense, though in my opinion, this was bruces last
chance at earning DPOY award.
But I guess everyone will just keep voting for Ben. :rolleyes

[boutons_]

Congrats, Bruce. Good hustling for an old man! :)

[pache100]

Congratulations, Bruce and Timmy! I'm proud of ya'll!

http://i3.tinypic.com/xprbk1.gif http://i3.tinypic.com/xprbs4.gif http://i2.tinypic.com/xprc5w.gif

[Trainwreck2100]

That sounds just about right..
But I dont get it.
If everyone picked Ben as the DPOY, why isnt he the top "vote-getter".
It just doesnt make a lick of sense, though in my opinion, this was bruces last
chance at earning DPOY award.
But I guess everyone will just keep voting for Ben. :rolleyes


Coaches voted for this one not the media

[greywheel]

I am guessing the tie in points between Kobe and Kidd is what allowed six players on the first team.

[Slomo]

Coaches voted for this one not the mediaThis deserves to be repeated!

Congrats Bruce!

[themvp]

Congrats Bruce!

Something at least!

[TDMVPDPOY]

ron artest only plays half the season

ak47 is just a stat machine, his stats have no relation with his team record

td playin on one leg leads spurs to many team defensive stats #1

[FromWayDowntown]

Duncan's 9th straight all-defense selection.

If he's named to an All-NBA team, it will be 9 straight doubles.

[KingsFanWithoutName]

ron artest only plays half the season

ak47 is just a stat machine, his stats have no relation with his team record

td playin on one leg leads spurs to many team defensive stats #1LOL. You just took what I told you and used it in your own post. Get your own material, I have copyrights to that. :lol

[greywheel]

To be devil's advocate for a moment, Bruce had the better odds to get more points since Coaches could vote for four guards but could only vote for two centers.

[anthologyct]

That sounds just about right..
But I dont get it.
If everyone picked Ben as the DPOY, why isnt he the top "vote-getter".
It just doesnt make a lick of sense, though in my opinion, this was bruces last
chance at earning DPOY award.
But I guess everyone will just keep voting for Ben. :rolleyes


Let me take a stab at that question .......... "If everyone picked Ben as the DPOY, why isnt he the top "vote-getter".

Some may have thought that Camby, or Zo was a better defender than Ben at Center .......... remember, you have to pick by position here ........... not overall. But at guard, its clear that Bowen is the best defensive guard in the league.

Bowen has more votes than the 2 next highest ranking guards combined.

[TDMVPDPOY]

and why are there 6 guys on a team? seriously who cares if there is a tie, one of them should be regulated to 2nd team. looks like td might end up with 2nd all nba team this season.

[ShoogarBear]

How did anyone miss this gem?


Gilbert Arenas, Washington, 4 (1)

All I can say is there is one extremely stupid coach in the NBA.

[Jimcs50]

How did anyone miss this gem?



All I can say is there is one extremely stupid coach in the NBA.

Eddie Jordan....more than likely.

:)

[Crookshanks]

This just goes to show that the coaches are well aware of the defensive threat Bruce poses, night in and night out - while the sportscasters are morons who only look at stat sheets and probably see less than a dozen Spurs games all year!

Way to go Bruce!!! :elephant

[SlasherX]

lol wtf who the hell is voting this shit Gilbert arenas got votes? Diaw? lmao

[shelshor]

:elephant :elephant

:lol Bruce got more points then Ben Wallace.
:elephant :elephant

[JamStone]

Eddie Jordan....more than likely.

:)


I don't think coaches are allowed to vote for their own player.

By the way, where the heck is Andre Iguodala or Gerald Wallace or Raja Bell? Chauncey should not be on the second team ahead of those guys ... unless it's only because he's a point guard.

[CubanMustGo]

Ron "I didn't play half the season because I was pouting in Indiana" Artest? GMAFB. If he plays a full season, yes.

[FreshPrince22]

Bruce still owns ben Wallace, imho.

Tell that to Ben's 4 DPOY awards.

And the reason he got more votes is because there are many less defensive minded perimeter players than there are defensive minded big men.

[anthologyct]

This just goes to show that the coaches are well aware of the defensive threat Bruce poses, night in and night out - while the sportscasters are morons who only look at stat sheets and probably see less than a dozen Spurs games all year!

Way to go Bruce!!! :elephant


Hey, these great coaches that you speak of also voted for Arenas ............ that shows you just how valid the voting is . . . .

[FromWayDowntown]

I think it's ridiculous to say that the vote somehow means Bruce is the better defensive player. They are each great defenders and each does things that the other cannot do. It shows that the coaches agree with the media this year in naming those two the top defenders in the league, in some order. Ben was #1 in one poll, Bruce was #1 in the other. That's all.

[leemajors]

oh if those awards could talk. ben and bruce are both great defenders. some of the greatest scorers in the game acknowledge bruce's skills, and that is the utmost compliment a defender can receive.

[CubanMustGo]

Since the VOTING WAS DONE BY POSITION all this says is that Bruce was #1 at F, Wallace the #1 C. You can't compare positions by # of votes received.

[FromWayDowntown]

All I can say is there is one extremely stupid coach in the NBA.

One could draw the same conclusion from the fact that Ben Wallace was left off of the ballot submitted by one coach. He got 26 first team votes and 2 second team votes (A player can get votes on only 29 ballots because his own coach cannot vote for him; Bowen was the only player named on every ballot -- 26 firsts and 3 seconds).

[JamStone]

One could draw the same conclusion from the fact that Ben Wallace was left off of the ballot submitted by one coach. He got 26 first team votes and 2 second team votes (A player can get votes on only 29 ballots because his own coach cannot vote for him; Bowen was the only player named on every ballot -- 26 firsts and 3 seconds).


Larry Brown's revenge.

[ShoogarBear]

LMAO, somebody voted for Gilbert Arenas in place of Ben Wallace.

[Das Texan]

Just proves how stupid the media is.


Congrats to both Bruce and Timmy.


Bruce should in all honestly be holding the Defensive Player of the Year trophy but *shrugs* what are you gonna do with the idiotic media.

[picnroll]

Tell that to Ben's 4 DPOY awards.

And the reason he got more votes is because there are many less defensive minded perimeter players than there are defensive minded big men.
There's only two decent defensive centers in the league today, Wallace and Camby. If Ben lived in the era of Robinson, Hakeem, Dikembe and Mourning he wouldn't get a whiff of first, second or third team all-NBA.

[JamStone]

That's like saying if Tim Duncan was drafted in 1983, he would not never even get within sniffing distance of an NBA championship.

It's all conjecture.

[picnroll]

That's like saying if Tim Duncan was drafted in 1983, he would not never even get within sniffing distance of an NBA championship.

It's all conjecture.
Who's Wallace going to beat out? Hakeem? DRob? Mourning? Dikembe?

[strangeweather]

Who's Wallace going to beat out? Hakeem? DRob? Mourning? Dikembe?

In that era, he might have played PF, and been one of the most suffocating defenders ever at the position.

Comparing eras is a bitch.

[JamStone]

picnroll,

I didn't say you were necessarily wrong. I'm just saying it's conjecture. And, if Ben Wallace put up the same rebounding, blocked shots, and steals numbers as he has over the last few seasons and his team was an elite team, contending for championships, there would be arguments that he would be better or as good as Alonzo Mourning. And, Dikembe didn't do much more than what Ben does, so he'd probably be considered better than Deke ... IF his team was going to the NBA Finals a lot like his current team is. I mean Yao Ming and Brad Miller and Zydrunas Ilgauskas put up better overall numbers than Ben but a lot of people think Ben is the better center.

Like I said, it's conjecture. And, it's hard to theorize. Take my example too. If Tim Duncan was drafted in 1983, and had to face the Larry Bird Celtics, the showtime Lakers, the Bad Boy Pistons and then the Bulls dynasty, likely Tim Duncan doesn't get any championships. And, then he's not considered the best power forward in the history of the league. Might still be one of the greats like Barkley or Malone, but not THE BEST.

We can play "what if" all you want.

[1Parker1]

I haven't really followed that many Nets games this season....was Kidd's defense really that good? I watched the two games against SA and the 4 games against Philly, and AI and Parker torched Kidd in those games.

[picnroll]

If Duncan was drafted in 1983 he'd still be the best PF in the league and all NBA 1st team.

[mabber]

Jason Terry got a vote - LOL LOL LOL

[picnroll]

Surprised Chris Paul didn't get any love.

[JamStone]

If Duncan was drafted in 1983 he'd still be the best PF in the league and all NBA 1st team.


Wrong. He would be perennially an all NBA 3rd teamer after Karl Malone and Charles Barkley. Maybe he gets a first team bid once or twice. But, you underestimate what Malone and Barkley did. And, especially since Duncan wouldn't have won championships, he wouldn't have been better than either Malone or Barkley.

[DarkReign]

If Duncan was drafted in 1983 he'd still be the best PF in the league and all NBA 1st team.

Ahhh...no. Everyone in this era plays pussy-ball compared to those days.

[picnroll]

Wrong. He would be perennially an all NBA 3rd teamer after Karl Malone and Charles Barkley. Maybe he gets a first team bid once or twice. But, you underestimate what Malone and Barkley did. And, especially since Duncan wouldn't have won championships, he wouldn't have been better than either Malone or Barkley.
LMFAO.

When they held a poll of sportswriter Duncan was considered the greatest PF of all time. Where would Ben be on the C list? Top 20? On the defensive C list? Top 10?

[timvp]

Somebody voted Parker on the first team?

Kinda blows your theory that Beno Udrih is a better defender than Tony Parker, eh?

[Darrin]

LMFAO.

When they held a poll of sportswriter Duncan was considered the greatest PF of all time. Where would Ben be on the C list? Top 20? On the defensive C list? Top 10?


On the Center list? He's down there pretty far. But considering the state of centers and what is expected of them, he is an All-NBA Center in today's league.

As for defense, I think he's top-3. Olajuwaon, Russell, and Big Ben. I'm sure D-Rob fans are about to rip me apart for that so go ahead. But in the words of Dumars: "I haven't seen anyone better (than Wallace)."

[picnroll]

Kinda blows your theory that Beno Udrih is a better defender than Tony Parker, eh?
Actually, kind of blows my theory that all coaches watch the game. I'll back off on Beno;'s defense though I think he handles physically stronger but slower guards better then Parker. But if you think that Parker vote has any legitmacy, well ..... :drunk

[rayray2k8]

Coaches voted for this one not the media
It SHOULD be up to the coaches deciding on who gets what award.

[Kori Ellis]

Coaches>Media

:)

Good job, Bruuuuuuuce!

[timvp]

Actually, kind of blows my theory that all coaches watch the game. I'll back off on Beno;'s defense though I think he handles physically stronger but slower guards better then Parker.

Like who?

You did watch when Sam Cassell scored 12 straight points on Beno and the Spurs lost, right?


But if you think that Parker vote has any legitmacy, well ..... :drunk

Granted, Parker wasn't playing defense as well as he could during the regular season, but in the playoffs he's been the team's best defender. He's held Mike Bibby and Jason Terry to a combined 15 points per game on 35% shooting.

And really, a good amount of those points were scored when Beno or NVX were in the game.

[George W Bush]

That award was stolen from Bruce.
I know a thing or two about stealin', by the way..

2000, 2004 :smokin


God Bless America :tu

[RON ARTEST]

that shows Artest is a better defender then bowen. ron only played half a season and still made the defensive team. :lol plus bonmzi owned bowen. thats probably why he wasnt dpoy. :lol what a great day.

[Tanya]

Billups on second team? He doesn't deserve it. I'd rather take Rasheed Wallace.

[picnroll]

On the Center list? He's down there pretty far. But considering the state of centers and what is expected of them, he is an All-NBA Center in today's league.

As for defense, I think he's top-3. Olajuwaon, Russell, and Big Ben. I'm sure D-Rob fans are about to rip me apart for that so go ahead. But in the words of Dumars: "I haven't seen anyone better (than Wallace)."
Be thankful Ben didn't live in the era where he had to match up agianst a young Shaq, DRob, Hakeem, Ewing, Mourning, Dougherty, even Rik Smits night in and night out. Particularly if he was the one who'd actually sack up agianst them rather than Rasheed.

[picnroll]

Like who?

You did watch when Sam Cassell scored 12 straight points on Beno and the Spurs lost, right?


You're kidding. I've NEVER seen Parker do well against Cassell. They bring the help D almost when Cassell gets the ball across mid-court.

[Kori Ellis]

Don't ruin this Bruce thread with ridiculous Tony vs Beno arguments.

Thanks.

[timvp]

Why is Bowen still voted on as a guard? Is Manu a small forward and I missed the memo? I could understand when Hedo was here but not now.

[tlongII]

I don't know what Bowen plays, but it ain't basketball.

[picnroll]

I don't know what Portland plays, but it ain't basketball.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

LMFAO.

When they held a poll of sportswriter Duncan was considered the greatest PF of all time. Where would Ben be on the C list? Top 20? On the defensive C list? Top 10?


When they held a poll of sportswriter Ben Wallace won the DPOY award....

GOAT talk is pure conjecture. How many of those sportwriters saw Pettit play?

[greywheel]

Why is Bowen still voted on as a guard? Is Manu a small forward and I missed the memo? I could understand when Hedo was here but not now.

Thanks, I thought it was me for a sec, I editted an earlier post because I referred to him as a forward, when he was voted in as a guard.

Since Bowen guards forwards and guards either might be considered a valid defensive position for him.

[FreshPrince22]

Be thankful Ben didn't live in the era where he had to match up agianst a young Shaq, DRob, Hakeem, Ewing, Mourning, Dougherty, even Rik Smits night in and night out. Particularly if he was the one who'd actually sack up agianst them rather than Rasheed.

As someone already said, he would have been a Power Forward (ala Rodman).

[picnroll]

As someone already said, he would have been a Power Forward (ala Rodman).

So basically you're saying he would have had to dummy down to get away from the dominant post players?

[LittleGeneral]

Hinrich got three first team votes? What the hell?

[FreshPrince22]

So basically you're aying he would have had to dummy down to get away from the dominant post players?
The reason he can get away with being 6-7 and playing Center is because there aren't that many dominant post players at that position (or at all). He plays that position because it allows him to roam. His ability to disrupt the entire offense (not just one guy) is what makes him great. You have to adapt to the situation. In that situation he would play more like Rodman.

[FreshPrince22]

Hinrich got three first team votes? What the hell?

Hinrich is a flat out beast on defense. Don't let stereotypes get in the way of what really happens on the court.

My 1st team would have been...

PG- Hinrich
SG- Bowen
SF- Artest
PF- Duncan
C- Wallace

[leemajors]

Hinrich is a flat out beast on defense. Don't let stereotypes get in the way of what really happens on the court.

My 1st team would have been...

PG- Hinrich
SG- Bowen
SF- Artest
PF- Duncan
C- Wallace

i still can't believe what a pro hinrich has become. he was super athletic in college but he has developed one hell of a jumpshot, as well as playing solid d. his length definitely helps out on the defensive end.

[Spurologist]

Congrats to Bowen.


LMAO, somebody voted for Gilbert Arenas in place of Ben Wallace.

:lol It must be because of his steals. Even that shows his lack of defense because he gambles on almost every play = easy baskets.

[RON ARTEST]

Congrats to Bowen.



:lol It must be because of his steals. Even that shows his lack of defense because he gambles on almost every play = easy baskets.
washington and seattle are even worse then the suns on defense. now thats saying something.

[Spurologist]

washington and seattle are even worse then the suns on defense. now thats saying something.

I think you are mistaken. The suns practically roll out the carpet for you to score so they can get their uptempo style going. That is the worst defensive team in the nba over last 10 years.





nah my bad. I forgot about the knicks.

[RON ARTEST]

nah my bad. I forgot about the knicks.yup :lol i guess larry brown didnt get them to "play the right way" huh?

[bigzak25]

Ben Wallace is a bad mutha fucka.

But props to Bruuuuuce. Nobody hustles like he can.

[picnroll]

On the Center list? He's down there pretty far. But considering the state of centers and what is expected of them, he is an All-NBA Center in today's league.

As for defense, I think he's top-3. Olajuwaon, Russell, and Big Ben. I'm sure D-Rob fans are about to rip me apart for that so go ahead. But in the words of Dumars: "I haven't seen anyone better (than Wallace)."


As someone already said, he would have been a Power Forward (ala Rodman).
So which is it Darrin and FreshPrince22? Is he the third best defensive center all-time or would he have to hide out as Rodman-lite if he were in the land of the real giants?

btw Pistons' fans who's is/was better Rodman or Wallace?

[spurs=bling]

congrats to Bruce. he atleast deserved that.

[4001 STEREO SPUR]

:elephant Bruce is no. 1!! :tu

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

So which is it Darrin and FreshPrince22? Is he the third best defensive center all-time or would he have to hide out as Rodman-lite if he were in the land of the real giants?

btw Pistons' fans who's is/was better Rodman or Wallace?

I was told there would be no math...

[hatam90]

TD on 2nd team???

That is just wrong.

I Agree, he should have been on the first team, give the guy a break, he played the whole season on one foot and ended up with 11.1 Rpg and 2 BLKS PER GAME. Thats just messed up.

[anthologyct]

LMFAO.

When they held a poll of sportswriter Duncan was considered the greatest PF of all time. Where would Ben be on the C list? Top 20? On the defensive C list? Top 10?


So, now suddenly, these sport writers who didn't vote Bowen as DPOY, now suddenly have credibility because of what they say about Tim Duncan?

I happen to believe that Duncan is the best PF ever ............. but, you can't start using that argument ............ If they're smart enough to say that Tim Duncan is the best PF of all times, then they're smart enough to vote Ben Wallace over Bowen.

Does that not make sense?

[picnroll]

So, now suddenly, these sport writers who didn't vote Bowen as DPOY, now suddenly have credibility because of what they say about Tim Duncan?

I happen to believe that Duncan is the best PF ever ............. but, you can't start using that argument ............ If they're smart enough to say that Tim Duncan is the best PF of all times, then they're smart enough to vote Ben Wallace over Bowen.

Does that not make sense?

The way I see it in terms of opinions it's:

Coaches and GMS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> collective group of sportswiters >>> your average fan

That would put Bruce as DPOY by the coaches and given a choice of JamStone or NBA writers opinion on Duncan, Malone, Barkley I'd say writers>>>>> JamStone.

[SA210]

Bruce "The real 2006 DPOY"

[JamStone]

picnroll,

Why did you bring me back into the argument? You are confusing logics.

I never said that Tim Duncan WAS NOT the best power forward ever to play the game. In fact, I believe he is the best ever at the position.

My argument was that if he played in the era of Charles Barkley and Karl Malone, then he would not have been a perennial first team all NBA selection, and he would most of his career be a third all NBA selection after Barkley and Malone. And, being that as it would be, along with the fact he would not have won any NBA titles playing in that era, he would not be considered the best power forward ever. And, that is not contrary to sportswriters saying Tim Duncan is the best ever, since those are two different arguments.

You were the one who introduced this line of arguments with your "if Ben Wallace played during the David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwan era" crap. Well, since I flipped the same type of thinking on Duncan, all of a sudden you use contemporary opinions of sportswriters to refute that? Those sportswriters weren't posed the same scenerio, you idiot. Sportswriters contending that Duncan is the best power forward does not rebut what I'm saying.

Learn how to follow logic and form arguments.

[picnroll]

You're assuming Duncan wouldn't have been on a competitive team so he would have been stranded on an island by himself. Let's role back the clock and bring him into the league with the Spurs in the DRob era of Barkley and Malone.

Duncan comes into the league in 1989 with the Spurs joining a DRob drafted in 1987 DRob and Sean Elliott drafted that year as well. And since they had TD Spurs have no need to trade Alvin Robertson for Terry Cummings. So you have:

Center - DRob
PF - TD
SF - Sean Elliott
SG - Alvin Robertson
PG, let's say they make that trade for Rod Strickland. they made that year

Spurs now would have a shitload of titles and MJ would be short a few. And TD would be the greatest PF of all time and DRob would be up there in the rarified air of Chamberlain and Russell.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

That team still wouldn't beat the Pistons or Bulls of that era...

[picnroll]

That team still wouldn't beat the Pistons or Bulls of that era...
LMFAO.

On and by '91 Pistons were starting to suck ass.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

LMFAO

LMFAO that you think they would. BTW, I like how you just inserted TD and Elliott in the same draft year considering they were both top 3 selections.

[jcrod]

picnroll,

Why did you bring me back into the argument? You are confusing logics.

I never said that Tim Duncan WAS NOT the best power forward ever to play the game. In fact, I believe he is the best ever at the position.

My argument was that if he played in the era of Charles Barkley and Karl Malone, then he would not have been a perennial first team all NBA selection, and he would most of his career be a third all NBA selection after Barkley and Malone. And, being that as it would be, along with the fact he would not have won any NBA titles playing in that era, he would not be considered the best power forward ever. And, that is not contrary to sportswriters saying Tim Duncan is the best ever, since those are two different arguments.

You were the one who introduced this line of arguments with your "if Ben Wallace played during the David Robinson and Hakeem Olajuwan era" crap. Well, since I flipped the same type of thinking on Duncan, all of a sudden you use contemporary opinions of sportswriters to refute that? Those sportswriters weren't posed the same scenerio, you idiot. Sportswriters contending that Duncan is the best power forward does not rebut what I'm saying.

Learn how to follow logic and form arguments.

Well that argument is stupid, especially when you consider Barkley himself has said TD is the best PF to ever play the game.

I don't think TD would've been 1st teamer every yr, but it's easy to say at least half the time he would've and more times than those two.

[jcrod]

That team still wouldn't beat the Pistons or Bulls of that era...


I'm not saying the would've, but to say the wouldn't is wrong also.

If you put TD on that team with a yound DRob and prime Alvin and young Sean. That probably would've been one of the top 3 best defensive teams to ever play the game. They would've given any team a run for their money.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

The argument is retarded. It's pure conjecture which was the heart of Jam's point.


Would TD be the same player in an era where defense/physical play were 10x stronger than it is today? Maybe, maybe not...

[polandprzem]

Wrong. He would be perennially an all NBA 3rd teamer after Karl Malone and Charles Barkley. Maybe he gets a first team bid once or twice. But, you underestimate what Malone and Barkley did. And, especially since Duncan wouldn't have won championships, he wouldn't have been better than either Malone or Barkley.

Ohh boy. I would like to see Timmy in eighties :smokin

[picnroll]

Kind of amusing, when this is known as the era of the power forward and Duncan is dominating, yet JamStone says he'd be a 3rd teamer in the past. :lol

Original point was Ben is playing inwhat may be the weakest era ever for centers, particularly now that Shaq is pretty much done. I mean Yao is no better than Rik Smits and he's considered the best center today.

[JamStone]

Thank you, DisgruntledLionsFan, for being one of the few posters to actually get what I'm saying.

At the heart of this line of theorizing is that all of it is CONJECTURE.

And, that's what my original point was from the beginning after picnroll was the FIRST to throw in the "what if" argument about Ben playing in the era of Hakeem and D-Rob and Mourning. All of it is unproveable.

And, fine, Charles Barkley said Tim is the best PF ever. Would he feel the same if Tim Duncan didn't win three championships or played in his era? That was the premise of picnroll's argument of putting Ben in a different era. Do you get it yet?

And, Disgruntled also found the other flaw in your "Put Tim on the 1989 squad" when in fact if he was, Sean Elliot would not have been a Spur.

Again, a lot of different direct and indirect consequenses would have resulted from putting a player in a different era.

Go ahead and put Ben in the era of Mourning and Hakeem of the early 1990s. What the Grant Hill-Allan Houston Pistons team really lacked was a true rebounder and interior defender. They didn't lack for scoring. In fact, put Ben on that team with not much help in the frontcourt, and he averages 15 rebounds a game like he did in 2002-03. Plus there was no offensive foul half circle under the basket. No more foul calls for standing in the half circle. Another advantage for Ben.

You see, the point is you can make plenty of arguments for whatever your contention is when you put a player back in the past. It's still all CONJECTURE. And, that's my point by putting Tim Duncan back in the 1980s. Convenient how you wanted to change it from 1983 (as I first argued) to 1989 just so you could make a stronger argument for Tim. Your 1989 argument only supports the idea that Tim Duncan became as good as he was because of David Robinson.

[picnroll]

JamStone speaking of flaws you're saying Duncan wouldn't have been considered as great, saying it's likely he could have been surpassed in the history books by Malone and Barkley becuase he might not have won any titles. Remind me, exactly how many titles did Malone and Barkley rack up? Talk about flawed logic. Now if you were using this logic and talking about McHale at least you wouldn't be totally off the wall.

You want to put Duncan on some scrub team? Okay put Joprdan on the Clips of the 90's. Would he still be considered GOAT? Does that mean he was not as good?

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Pot meet kettle...

[DarkReign]

I'm not saying the would've, but to say the wouldn't is wrong also.

If you put TD on that team with a yound DRob and prime Alvin and young Sean. That probably would've been one of the top 3 best defensive teams to ever play the game. They would've given any team a run for their money.

Right after Lambieer hit all 3 of them with an elbow in the mouth?

Different eras is my point. Mahorn, Rodman, Budha, Lambier wouldnt allow guards in the trees. So, you take Alvin and Sean right out of the equation.

youre left with Duncan vs Rodman.

Rodman > Rasheed Wallace. See the point?

[DarkReign]

JamStone speaking of flaws you're saying Duncan wouldn't have been considered as great, saying it's likely he could have been surpassed in the history books by Malone and Barkley becuase he might not have won any titles. Remind me, exactly how many titles did Malone and Barkley rack up? Talk about flawed logic. Now if you were using this logic and talking about McHale at least you wouldn't be totally off the wall.

You want to put Duncan on some scrub team? Okay put Joprdan on the Clips of the 90's. Would he still be considered GOAT? Does that mean he was not as good?

Youre an asshole. Thats definative. Its called natural progression. Jordan learned from the Pistons. Remember that.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

Here's some good conjecture for ya: If Bowen was listed at the position he actually plays, SF, he would not have led in the coaches voting...

[picnroll]

You think Lambier would intimidate Robertson. Alvin was a badass mother. Lambier would be spitting blood. On O Alvin would neutralize Dumars. Mahorn and Rodman would shutdown themselves. Lambier would be covered on the outside by Elliott. That leaves Thomas to get shots from the outside and go into the paint agaisnt Duncan and DRob. Pistons would be struggling to keep up with a potent Spurs offense.

[picnroll]

Here's some good conjecture for ya: If Bowen was listed at the position he actually plays, SF, he would not have led in the coaches voting...
Here's some conjecture for you. On defense Bowen takes whatever perimeter player is likely to hurt or is hurting the Spurs the worst, PG, SG, SF, even guys like Dirk, Bosh, Randolph. And not just on a switch like Ben Wallace but for entire quarters or more. He is simply the most versatile defender in the league.

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

You think Lambier would intimidate Robertson. Alvin was a badass mother. Lambier would be spitting blood. On O Alvin would neutralize Dumars. Mahorn and Rodman would shutdown themselves. Lambier would be covered on the outside by Elliott. That leaves Thomas to get shots from the outside and go into the paint agaisnt Duncan and DRob. Pistons would be struggling to keep up with a potent Spurs offense.


First, Elliott wouldn't even be on the team. Second, Rodman came off the bench for Aguirre...

[picnroll]

First, Elliott wouldn't even be on the team.
It's my fantasy so fuck off. :lol

[DisgruntledLionFan#54,927]

It's my fantasy so fuck off. :lol

Exactly.

[picnroll]

Besides if I don't get Elliott I'm making the trade the Spurs passed on which would have landed the Spurs Barkley form Philly. You want apiece of that team? DRob, TD, Barkley, Robertson and Strickland?

[JamStone]

JamStone speaking of flaws you're saying Duncan wouldn't have been considered as great, saying it's likely he could have been surpassed in the history books by Malone and Barkley becuase he might not have won any titles. Remind me, exactly how many titles did Malone and Barkley rack up? Talk about flawed logic. Now if you were using this logic and talking about McHale at least you wouldn't be totally off the wall.

You want to put Duncan on some scrub team? Okay put Joprdan on the Clips of the 90's. Would he still be considered GOAT? Does that mean he was not as good?


EXACTLY my point.

Yeah, put Jordan on the Clippers. Perfect example. And, NO, Jordan would ABSOLUTELY NOT have been considered GOAT UNLESS he won all those championships with the Clippers.

THAT IS MY POINT.

You are assuming Ben Wallace's defense would not be recognized as much as it is today in the day of better centers such as Zo, Dikembe (arguable anyway), Dream, and D-Rob. Well, I'm assuming Tim Duncan would not have been considered as good a power forward when compared to Barkley and Malone in their day. My assumption is as credible and probable as yours.

Understand yet?

[JamStone]

You think Lambier would intimidate Robertson. Alvin was a badass mother. Lambier would be spitting blood. On O Alvin would neutralize Dumars. Mahorn and Rodman would shutdown themselves. Lambier would be covered on the outside by Elliott. That leaves Thomas to get shots from the outside and go into the paint agaisnt Duncan and DRob. Pistons would be struggling to keep up with a potent Spurs offense.


So now the Bad Boy Pistons wouldn't be able to keep up with the mighty D-Rob-Elliot-Alvin Robertson Spurs??? My gosh, how rose colored your glasses are.

You mean the same Pistons team dismantled the SHOWTIME LAKERS, arguably the most potent offense in the history of the game??? The one with Magic, Kareem, and Worthy? But, those Pistons couldn't touch ALVIN ROBERTSON????

Riiiiiiiight.

:drunk
:smokin

[JamStone]

Here's some conjecture for you. On defense Bowen takes whatever perimeter player is likely to hurt or is hurting the Spurs the worst, PG, SG, SF, even guys like Dirk, Bosh, Randolph. And not just on a switch like Ben Wallace but for entire quarters or more. He is simply the most versatile defender in the league.


Bruce is an awesome defender. But, he's not God. Stop worshipping him like Snoop Dogg groupie backstage.

http://www.nba.com/games/20060306/SASLAL/boxscore.html

Kobe 43 points on 53% shooting, defended mostly by Bruce.

http://www.nba.com/games/20060326/SASSEA/boxscore.html

Ray Allen 33 points including 8-13 after being kicked by Bowen.


Bruce is great. He's amazing. But, get off his nutsack. And, Andrei Kirilenko, Kevin Garnett, and Ron Artest are more versatile defenders than either Ben or Bruce.

[strangeweather]

EXACTLY my point.

Not that you're wrong at all, but I think the horse is not only dead but in small pieces at this point.

[JamStone]

Corso,

If you weren't a diehard Spurs homer, you would likely agree that KG, AK47, and Artest are more versatile defenders than Ben or Bruce. Better? Probably not. More "VERSATILE"? Sorry, but they are.

[JamStone]

:lmao :lmao :lmao

I'm sorry I only watch playoff basketball!


Perfect.

So you did watch what Bonzi Wells did to Bruce Bowen in the first round.

I'm glad we agree.