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nbascribe
05-15-2006, 02:59 PM
An NBA Ref Helps This Writer Educate The Fans On What Refs Go Through
By Gregory Moore Blackathlete.net columnist

SAN ANTONIO – “Dang refs done cost the Spurs the game.”

That’s what I heard the other night at a local establishment while watching the Dallas Mavericks beat the San Antonio Spurs 104-103. It had been going on like this for most of the game. When I got there, I had printed out a homemade game running score sheet, printed out some game notes and grabbed my NBA Officials Media Guide that had the rules in it. Normally I don’t do such drastic measures but I wanted to prepare myself for some heavy analysis of why the Spurs won/loss the game. But it was during one heated exchange of this individual and a few others constantly saying the referees were against the Spurs that I had had enough of that talk.

“Look,” I said, “the Spurs are playing like crap. Plain and simple. The referees aren’t controlling the outcome. You guys don’t know what the heck you’re looking at.”

“Greg you’re supposed to be this great sports writer,” the individual who had first said the refs were jobbing the Spurs said. “I could do a better job than what all three of them are doing out there.”

Now we had a spirited debate on the matter for about thirty minutes but I knew that I wasn’t going to get anywhere with any of them. We’re talking apples and oranges in this conversation but when the assertion that the referees should be fined for making bad calls and costing players their careers, I knew I needed to talk to someone who would help me educate these folk and others on the art of being an NBA referee. So who do I call for such a job? None other than Ken Hudson himself.

I’ve often referred to having some really good connections in the sports world but one of my most cherished amongst many is the budding friendship that I have with the NBA’s second African American referee and even though I have a couple of other acquaintances who did a stint as an NBA referee, Ken’s knowledge of the game even during this time is unparalleled in my eyes and he has definitely been able to shed some light on some calls when I had questions on them. So I didn’t hesitate to get a hold of him on that eventful night. Fortunately for all involved, Ken called me back on Mother’s Day but we definitely had a good conversation on what today’s referee had to do on the job. So he was definitely the person I needed to talk to about trying to educate so many fans who think the could blow the whistle and make the right call.

“Today’s referees are highly scrutinized,” Hudson told me from his home in Georgia. “Today’s fans have no idea just how much pressure there is for these guys to get it right.”

What fans don’t realize is that it is tough becoming a NBA referee these days. The 65 referees that are currently in rotation have an average of ten years in the league and they have a job that is as stressful as any high profile job could be. Here is what a three-man crew goes through when assigned to work a basketball game:

• On game days, the officiating crew goes over game summaries, reports and specific cases from previous games involving the teams that are playing. They also break down video and analyze case studies as they prepare for the match up tonight.

• At halftime, the crew reviews calls made during the first half to ensure accuracy.

• After the game, the crew will submit a video breakdown to the league explaining the rulings used to make the calls they did during a game.

Doesn’t sound so easy now does it? Hudson went on to explain to me in our short conversation the whole process during the season.

“What fans don’t realize is that there is one guy at the game who is actually watching the referees,” Hudson said. “That guy’s only job is to make his own assessment of the calls made by the officiating crew and then he will talk with them after the game.”

“These refs are heavily scrutinized and they have to answer to a lot of people in order for this game to be as smooth as it is.”

Now I can understand where he is coming from because my viewing of the game is so totally different now than other individuals. I’ve mentioned this before but it is the truth when it comes to watching a basketball game. What I’ve also come to understand are many of the rules of the NBA and many of the ‘case studies’ that are a part of the games. Does this mean I’m sympathetic to the refs when the make a bad call? Yeah I am because I can see how the call could be made. May not make it right but at least I know that the call should have been “A” but they chose “B” because of a case study judgment made in mere nanoseconds.

UNDERSTANDING THE RULES IS IMPORTANT TO ENJOYMENT

I have always implored fans of the NBA to study the rulebook and become familiar with what is going on during the game. There are several rules that fans misconstrue and that in itself makes for pretty contentious debates and disagreements amongst fans. There are several rules that fans don’t understand. For instance, the biggest misconception is the block/charge call. According to the NBA rulebook, blocking is called when a defensive player does not get into a legal defensive posture and contact is made with the offensive player headed in that direction, blocking will be called. However if the defensive player establishes position before the offensive player reaches that position, a charging foul will be called. What’s a legal position? Usually the defensive player has to be at the designated point about two and a half seconds before the offensive man gets there.

Okay here’s another misconception call that gets fans upset when the whistle blows. What’s traveling in basketball? Most of us say it’s when a player takes a step before he bounces the ball or when he shuffles his feet, right? Well here is the exact definition of what traveling is in the NBA: to start a dribble, the ball must be released from a player’s hand before his pivot foot leaves the floor or he has committed a traveling violation. A player receives the ball while in motion, or upon completing his dribble, is allowed a one-two count after gathering the ball and preparing to stop, pass or shot. A player who falls to the floor while holding the ball or while coming to a stop may not gain an advantage by sliding on the floor. A player who attempts a shot may not be the first to touch the ball if it fails to touch the backboard, rim or another player. A player who receives the ball while moving or ending his dribble may use a two county rhythm in coming to a stop, passing or shooting. If a player comes to a stop on the count of one when both feet are on the floor or touch the floor simultaneously, he may pivot using either foot as his pivot. If he alights with both feet he must release the ball before either foot touches the floor. If a player has one foot on the floor or lands with one foot first to the floor, he may only pivot with that foot. Once that foot is lifted from the floor it may not return until the ball is released. If a player jumps off one foot on the count of one he may land with both feet simultaneously for count two. In this situation, the player may not pivot with either foot and if one or both feet leave the floor the ball must be released before either return to the floor.

Okay now that was lengthy but that is probably the biggest call misinterpretation by fans if not the second most behind the blocking/charging call. As Hudson told me over the phone, educating the fans is something that needs to be done because this game is more complicated than ever. Things were much simpler when Hudson donned on the stripe shirt and gave a technical to Oscar Robertson. Hudson was the league’s first African American referee and did three seasons in the NBA before moving on to pursue other interests. Many may say that while Hudson is definitely someone who understands the history of the league, for me to tap his resources on the current referees is a big stretch. Well that’s simply not the case. Even in his limited capacity, Ken is very much on top of what the referees must go through because he is still a part of that elite fraternity in some consulting capacities. But more importantly what Ken’s knowledge does for this article is to actually dispel so many of the misnomers that fans like to come out with when their favorite team.

“Fans have to realize that these guys are human and the make mistakes,” Hudson said. “They have their games evaluated by so many eyes in the league that it would be very hard for a crew to decide the outcome of a game.”

Maybe one of the reasons why fans think that can happen is because two seasons ago it did happen in San Antonio. There was an officiating crew during one game that was whistle happy and a lot of the calls did go against the Spurs. Yet the calls were so out of character that the league had the lead referee explain what was going on at halftime during the game. Coincidentally that game was being broadcasted by TNT. The calls were indeed atrocious and the following game, Ronnie Nunn showed up to observe for himself and make sure the crews were doing their job.

But folks that was an anomaly and rarely does that happen in this league. As I explained to so many at this eatery that night, you’d have to be almost smoking crack to believe that referees would have it in for one team or the other. For the record, the one point loss by the Spurs proves that it didn’t come down to the refs but more on bad defense and poor execution.

The bottom line on this referee story is that it’s really a non-story if you simply educate yourself on what are the rules in the NBA. The calls look different because the game is different than the lower levels of play. And thanks to a former referee, maybe there can be some education on this game so that the playoffs can be enjoyed just a little bit more than usual. And that’s thanks to the league’s second African American who became an NBA ref sharing some knowledge with a sports writer covering the game.

Gregory Moore is the Managing Editor of the San Antonio Informer, a weekly African American newspaper located in San Antonio, Texas and is an NBA analyst for Fox Sports Radio where he can be heard on the national and affiliate programming. Gregory has also appeared on Sporting News Radio, ESPN’s “Outside the Lines Nightly”, “Hot List” and “4 Quarters” programming as well as appearing on local sports talk radio programming in the Atlanta, Hollywood, Florida and Highpoint, North Carolina markets on a weekly basis.

Oh, Gee!!
05-15-2006, 03:00 PM
tldr

LEONARD
05-15-2006, 03:05 PM
Please provide Cliffs Notes for Spurs fans...

T Park
05-15-2006, 03:06 PM
Please leave up for Mavs fans after the next loss.

timvp
05-15-2006, 03:07 PM
However if the defensive player establishes position before the offensive player reaches that position, a charging foul will be called. What’s a legal position? Usually the defensive player has to be at the designated point about 25 to 30 seconds before the offensive man gets there.

Good idea. Stop going back on defense and setup for a charge on the next possession. This'll stop the Mavs.

:smokin

T Park
05-15-2006, 03:09 PM
Usually the defensive player has to be at the designated point about 25 to 30 seconds before the offensive man gets there

Then how come Devn Harris wasn't called for an offensive foul in the 4th quarter, and Parker got an blocking foul.


Also, whats up with the missed trip on Parker by Howard that resulted in a turnover ?

FromWayDowntown
05-15-2006, 03:09 PM
What’s a legal position? Usually the defensive player has to be at the designated point about 25 to 30 seconds before the offensive man gets there.

G -- I'm down with your analysis and agree with your point, but the quoted language can't be right. If it were, a player would have to be set in position for a longer period of time than the shot clock's duration. For a player to draw a charge by being in position 25-30 seconds early, he'd have to be set on the defensive end while his team was attacking the opposing basket. That's obviously not the rule.

JohnMcClane
05-15-2006, 03:11 PM
Rashaud (las Vegas): Ok.....John was Duncan's 6th foul in game 3 really a foul or did Dallas get saved on that play?

John Hollinger: (3:40 PM ET ) That's such a tough call to make, but I probably would have blown the whistle there, just because Duncan's leg was stretched outside the plane of his body. Especially as tightly as that game was officiated.

pache100
05-15-2006, 03:13 PM
G -- I'm down with your analysis and agree with your point, but the quoted language can't be right. If it were, a player would have to be set in position for a longer period of time than the shot clock's duration. For a player to draw a charge by being in position 25-30 seconds early, he'd have to be set on the defensive end while his team was attacking the opposing basket. That's obviously not the rule.

Yes, all that, but...who's timing it anyway? If the referees are watching play around the ball, who is timing this guy standing there on the defensive end?

Do they really think we are this stupid?

samikeyp
05-15-2006, 03:14 PM
Please provide Cliffs Notes for Spurs fans...

and the generalizations continue.

picnroll
05-15-2006, 03:15 PM
25 to 30 seconds is the reason they called that 6th foul on Duncan. No other explanation works.

strangeweather
05-15-2006, 03:16 PM
However if the defensive player establishes position before the offensive player reaches that position, a charging foul will be called. What’s a legal position? Usually the defensive player has to be at the designated point about 25 to 30 seconds before the offensive man gets there.

Uh, that's a typo, right? :huh

FromWayDowntown
05-15-2006, 03:21 PM
I don't think the argument works even if it were 2.5 to 3.0 seconds. That's an eternity in terms of an NBA game or possession. The post makes it sound as though a player must be statute-like in order to draw a charge; obviously, it's enough if the player slides over and sets himself, so long as he is set and outside of the semicircle before the offensive player takes off. Of course, the semicircle doesn't even control, because according to Ronnie Nunn (who, as the director of officiating, should know such things) there are circumstances in which a defensive player can be set and insider of the semicircle and still draw a charge.

nbascribe
05-15-2006, 03:26 PM
okay the quoted rules are from the NBA's rule book not mine.

Strange...yeah it's 2 to 3 seconds tops. Changed in the posted story by copy editor but not in ORIGINAL writing; which this is.

Bottom line though is that if the refs just call the game and the players just play, bad calls won't matter. Spurs lost by one point because they did bone head fouls that put them in the penalty situation WAY to early in quarters.

1Parker1
05-15-2006, 03:29 PM
As I explained to so many at this eatery that night, you’d have to be almost smoking crack to believe that referees would have it in for one team or the other.

:lol Guess there's a lot of people on the forum smoking crack.

FromWayDowntown
05-15-2006, 03:30 PM
okay the quoted rules are from the NBA's rule book not mine.

Strange...yeah it's 2 to 3 seconds tops. Changed in the posted story by copy editor but not in ORIGINAL writing; which this is.

Bottom line though is that if the refs just call the game and the players just play, bad calls won't matter. Spurs lost by one point because they did bone head fouls that put them in the penalty situation WAY to early in quarters.

Even the 2-3 seconds doesn't work -- it's certainly not the way the game is called in the NBA right now. A player in a defensive position for 2-3 seconds doesn't always get that call; the call is based more on who beats who to the spot that contact is initiated and whether the defensive player moves, if he manages to beat the offensive player to that spot. If that's establishing defensive position, it certainly doesn't have a 2-3 second window. I'm not sure anyone could effectively play defense in the NBA if required to hold a position for 2-3 seconds in order to draw a charge.

Nbadan
05-15-2006, 03:42 PM
I have finished my analysis of game 3, the bad calls went against the Spurs 3-1, the call for Dirk (tripping by Barry), and the (non-call) Tony Parker trip by Howard near the end of the game were particular disturbing. Tim Duncan fouled Dirk if only because it was a consistant foul (they had been calling it all night when Dirk took the ball to the rim and was lightly touched).

picnroll
05-15-2006, 03:49 PM
When Duncan "took it to the rim and was lightly touched" did he get the call?

FromWayDowntown
05-15-2006, 03:49 PM
I remain convinced that even bad calls didn't cost the Spurs the game -- it didn't help the Spurs chances, but it didn't decide the outcome. Bad calls happen, but you play through them and hope that things even out. If they don't, they don't; but that doesn't excuse poor efforts and lousy execution.

Had the Spurs played with more fire and aggression in the first half of that game -- had they not allowed the Mavs to beat them to loose balls and not allowed them to drive the lane freely -- none of the 4th quarter officiating would have been a problem. I'm not saying the officials called the game correctly, just that you can't say that the officials cost the Spurs the game without, at the same time, trying to cop-out for the Spurs' performance in the first half. Don't allow the game to be close enough that officials can make a difference and the officiating problems go away.

In this series, it's all about defense. The Spurs haven't shown much -- even without the FT's the Mavs shot 50% in the 4th Quarter, which is too high.

texbumTHElife
05-15-2006, 03:56 PM
Not to be a total prick or anything but had over to www.blackathlete.net and its easy to see that 90% of the posters on this forum could put together a more well written, presentable and accurate media source.

The rule book is the rule book but this writer isnt much of a writer. FTR I am calling BS on the whole story.

Sasha
05-15-2006, 03:59 PM
Don't allow the game to be close enough that officials can make a difference and the officiating problems go away.

In this series, it's all about defense. The Spurs haven't shown much -- even without the FT's the Mavs shot 50% in the 4th Quarter, which is too high.


Exactly.

The upside of this is that the Spurs know it, too. The other upside is that there's no way the Spurs are going to just give that trophy away - especially not to Dallas.

I think we're going to see a game tonight!

Nbadan
05-15-2006, 04:03 PM
Had the Spurs played with more fire and aggression in the first half of that game -- had they not allowed the Mavs to beat them to loose balls and not allowed them to drive the lane freely -- none of the 4th quarter officiating would have been a problem. I'm not saying the officials called the game correctly, just that you can't say that the officials cost the Spurs the game without, at the same time, trying to cop-out for the Spurs' performance in the first half. Don't allow the game to be close enough that officials can make a difference and the officiating problems go away.

The Spurs need to start Tim, Tony, Barry, Finley (on Dirk), and Bowen and get off to a fast start to demoralize Dallas. The fist sub should be Manu, not Oberto.

Nbadan
05-15-2006, 04:31 PM
NBADAN POSTING IN A BASKETBALL THREAD OH SHIT......is it snowing outside??????

The Spurs need me.

:hat

Phenomanul
05-15-2006, 05:00 PM
I remain convinced that even bad calls didn't cost the Spurs the game -- it didn't help the Spurs chances, but it didn't decide the outcome. Bad calls happen, but you play through them and hope that things even out. If they don't, they don't; but that doesn't excuse poor efforts and lousy execution.

Had the Spurs played with more fire and aggression in the first half of that game -- had they not allowed the Mavs to beat them to loose balls and not allowed them to drive the lane freely -- none of the 4th quarter officiating would have been a problem. I'm not saying the officials called the game correctly, just that you can't say that the officials cost the Spurs the game without, at the same time, trying to cop-out for the Spurs' performance in the first half. Don't allow the game to be close enough that officials can make a difference and the officiating problems go away.

In this series, it's all about defense. The Spurs haven't shown much -- even without the FT's the Mavs shot 50% in the 4th Quarter, which is too high.


I would agree with what you said except I would probably add that there is another factor to consider: whenever the other team is going to the line posession after posession... I would imagine that the tone set by the refs then limits the Spurs' defensive agression on ensuing plays... The dynamics are a bit more complicated than can be told by the FG%s...

One big number stands out however.... If both teams played with simillar agressiveness... how is it that the Mavs ended up at the line 17 more times??? I typically don't hold margins less than 10 as relevant. But margins greater than 10 when both teams are playing with similar agressiveness is troubling...

Here's something else to consider that hasn't really been highlighted at all and it demonstrates the Spurs' said agressiveness: The Spurs lost the scoring battle only in the 1st Quarter.... they outscored the Mavs in the 3 remaining Quarters.....

FromWayDowntown
05-15-2006, 05:13 PM
I would agree with what you said except I would probably add that there is another factor to consider: whenever the other team is going to the line posession after posession... I would imagine that the tone set by the refs then limits the Spurs' defensive agression on ensuing plays... The dynamics are a bit more complicated than can be told by the FG%s...

I'm not sure it completely modified the Spurs' defensive aggression -- nor should it. If they're going to call it, they call it. You still have to defend and you still have to be able to hold an opponent to less than 50% shooting in the 4th quarter of a playoff game.


One big number stands out however.... If both teams played with simillar agressiveness... how is it that the Mavs ended up at the line 17 more times??? I typically don't hold margins less than 10 as relevant. But margins greater than 10 when both teams are playing with similar agressiveness is troubling...

Two things -- (1) I don't think the Spurs played as aggressively as the Mavericks in the first 24 minutes and particularly not in the 1st quarter; (2) the Spurs committed some dumb fouls early in quarters that permitted the Mavericks to get into the penalty early, which inflated their FTA number. There were 3 relatively soft fouls early in the 4th quarter that accelerated the Mavs into the penalty very early in that quarter, meaning that they shot FT regardless of the nature of the contact thereafter. I'm not sure that the Spurs managed to get the Mavs into that kind of foul trouble in any quarter other than one.


Here's something else to consider that hasn't really been highlighted at all and it demonstrates the Spurs' said agressiveness: The Spurs lost the scoring battle only in the 1st Quarter.... they outscored the Mavs in the 3 remaining Quarters.....

I think that's a testament to the fact that this team is certainly capable of beating the Mavericks on any floor. I'm not sure that winning the scoring battle in a quarter means that a team played more aggressively (or even equally aggressivley) than the opponent.

Nbadan
05-15-2006, 05:18 PM
Two things -- (1) I don't think the Spurs played as aggressively as the Mavericks in the first 24 minutes and particularly not in the 1st quarter;

No they didn't. In fact, only many plays Tony passed the ball to Horry or Barry and then proceeded to stand on the left-side 3 point line. Is this where one of your best dribble penetrators should be? What? Is POP saving Tony?

Phenomanul
05-15-2006, 05:21 PM
I'm not sure it completely modified the Spurs' defensive aggression -- nor should it. If they're going to call it, they call it. You still have to defend and you still have to be able to hold an opponent to less than 50% shooting in the 4th quarter of a playoff game.



Two things -- (1) I don't think the Spurs played as aggressively as the Mavericks in the first 24 minutes and particularly not in the 1st quarter; (2) the Spurs committed some dumb fouls early in quarters that permitted the Mavericks to get into the penalty early, which inflated their FTA number. There were 3 relatively soft fouls early in the 4th quarter that accelerated the Mavs into the penalty very early in that quarter, meaning that they shot FT regardless of the nature of the contact thereafter. I'm not sure that the Spurs managed to get the Mavs into that kind of foul trouble in any quarter other than one.



I think that's a testament to the fact that this team is certainly capable of beating the Mavericks on any floor. I'm not sure that winning the scoring battle in a quarter means that a team played more aggressively (or even equally aggressivley) than the opponent.

While that may be true... the scoring edge is indicative of agressiveness when a bulk of your points are coming from the paint... as opposed to settling for jumpers.

FromWayDowntown
05-15-2006, 05:27 PM
While that may be true... the scoring edge is indicative of agressiveness when a bulk of your points are coming from the paint... as opposed to settling for jumpers.

That might be true, too. But I'd argue that points in the paint as a sheer number might not always indicate aggressiveness. If Team A is scoring in the paint and Team B is taking the ball to the rack and getting fouled without getting and-1's, Team A will have more points in the paint (likely), but might not have been as aggressive as Team B.

I thought there was a kernel of that in Game 3 -- the Mavs didn't have as many points in the paint as the Spurs, but that was (in part) because they were drawing fouls and getting to the line. Those points aren't credited as points in the paint, but they are points of aggression.

v2freak
05-15-2006, 05:35 PM
I don't use this phrase very often, but cry me a river Gregory Moore and co...

Phenomanul
05-15-2006, 05:39 PM
That might be true, too. But I'd argue that points in the paint as a sheer number might not always indicate aggressiveness. If Team A is scoring in the paint and Team B is taking the ball to the rack and getting fouled without getting and-1's, Team A will have more points in the paint (likely), but might not have been as aggressive as Team B.

I thought there was a kernel of that in Game 3 -- the Mavs didn't have as many points in the paint as the Spurs, but that was (in part) because they were drawing fouls and getting to the line. Those points aren't credited as points in the paint, but they are points of aggression.


All I know is we can outscore them... we just need to stop them without the Refs going "ticky tack" on us...

FromWayDowntown
05-15-2006, 05:42 PM
All I know is we can outscore them... we just need to stop them without the Refs going "ticky tack"...

I agree with you on both ideas, but mostly, I think it comes down to the Spurs actually getting stops. They can do it -- particularly if they play with aggression do the little things.

It would help that cause if they'd quit complaining about calls and non-calls (regardless of how frustrating the whistles might be) and just play the freakin' game.

I remain convinced that the most important number for the Spurs is defensive rebounds -- you don't get a stop until you grab one of those suckers and the Spurs achillies heel in these playoffs has been conceding offensive boards and second-chance points.

Phenomanul
05-15-2006, 05:46 PM
I agree with you on both ideas, but mostly, I think it comes down to the Spurs actually getting stops. They can do it -- particularly if they play with aggression do the little things.

It would help that cause if they'd quit complaining about calls and non-calls (regardless of how frustrating the whistles might be) and just play the freakin' game.

I remain convinced that the most important number for the Spurs is defensive rebounds -- you don't get a stop until you grab one of those suckers and the Spurs achillies heel in these playoffs has been conceding offensive boards and second-chance points.

Sadly.... very true...

GoSpurs21
05-15-2006, 08:45 PM
Maybe one of the reasons why fans think that can happen is because two seasons ago it did happen in San Antonio. There was an officiating crew during one game that was whistle happy and a lot of the calls did go against the Spurs. Yet the calls were so out of character that the league had the lead referee explain what was going on at halftime during the game. Coincidentally that game was being broadcasted by TNT. The calls were indeed atrocious and the following game, Ronnie Nunn showed up to observe for himself and make sure the crews were doing their job.

wasnt that the other time the Mavs shot 50 free throws in a playoff game?

Tek_XX
05-15-2006, 08:48 PM
The NBA's problem is consistancy. If their going to call it tight, it needs to be tight the whole game, and vice versa.

MissAllThat
05-16-2006, 02:14 AM
I'm thinking I'm calling BS on this article now. After this game, the only trials and tribulations I can see an NBA ref facing are the ones they'll get when they die and have to explain to their conscience after making such blatantly horrible calls.

Nero
05-16-2006, 02:27 AM
"On the other hand, Dirk has been fucking awesome against pretty much everyone else, and brilliant at driving and creating contact."

I don't think the series is being called unfairly. It is being called tight which favors the Mavs, but that's just because of the personal of each team.
1) Spurs are worse freethrow shooters
2) TD gets into foul trouble
If the league wants to decrease physical play then the Spurs just have to adjust to that. Especially Bowen is playing way too aggressive.

But the calls on Dirk are out of hand. There is no way a jumpshooter gets that many freethrow attempts without ref help. I've noticed that so many of his trips to the line are off the ball calls when the Spurs are over the limit or when he's 21 feet out. Players make an effort not to foul jump shooters especially ones that shoot 90% at the line. Yet he is consitently fouled. Are the leagues defenders stupid? No, it's mostly star call syndrome. You say he's brilliant at driving to the basket and creating contact? Yes, but that's all he does is create contact. When was the last time Dirk finished a drive with a 2 point basket? I can't remember. He's not a finisher that deserves the benefit of the doubt when he drives like AI, Kobe, Nash, Parker, Manu, LeBron, Harris!, etc do. Please let's see him finish around the rim before we give him a call every time he barrels into the lane out of control and throws up a prayer.