A little lesson from the Phoenix Suns...

[zocool16]

No, the Suns are not the defending World Champions, they may not be the best team in the league...but are they showing something or what? This team has faced a lot of adversity all year long, specially in the playoffs...and look at them. I just hope we can say that the Spurs were able to do something the Suns could...fight to the end and win.

I know the Spurs are fighting hard, but this is the time when they need to fight even harder... GO SPURS GO!!!!!

[Darrin]

Yeah, they are a great team. Why is everyone so far up the ass of this team?

[zocool16]

Yeah, they are a great team. Why is everyone so far up the ass of this team?

up whose ass? the suns? well if the suns was the team ur talking about then i guess i can say i have respect cuz they came back from down 3-1...i dont consider that being up someone's ass

[Darrin]

up whose ass? the suns? well if the suns was the team ur talking about then i guess i can say i have respect cuz they came back from down 3-1...i dont consider that being up someone's ass

Outside of Lakers fans, I have yet to have a single person believe the Suns are an average team. I see no difference between this team and the Bucks of 2001.

[Josh810]

Outside of Lakers fans, I have yet to have a single person believe the Suns are an average team. I see no difference between this team and the Bucks of 2001.
The fact that they're winning? Look, it annoys me too, that with their style, they seem to be heading to the WCF, but trust me, they won't get further. And if they somehow did, they'd be even more screwed against Detroit.

[Darrin]

The fact that they're winning? Look, it annoys me too, that with their style, they seem to be heading to the WCF, but trust me, they won't get further. And if they somehow did, they'd be even more screwed against Detroit.

Considering the 2001 Bucks, The difference is that Sam Cassell wasn't a 2-time MVP, Tim Thomas wasn't Most Improved Player, and George Karl wasn't Coach of the Year. They were a nice little team that took advantage of the lack of size in the East. No one tried to make them more than that.

[JMarkJohns]

Outside of Lakers fans, I have yet to have a single person believe the Suns are an average team. I see no difference between this team and the Bucks of 2001.

The difference is sitting in streetclothes on their bench.

I'll take that Bucks team. Game seven of the Conference Finals?

Without Amare, that's a HUGE success and considering they'd have to go through teams that give them fits to get there, I really couldn't complain.

This team is the worst rebounding team I've ever seen. Without Thomas, they have no box-out rebounders and almost every rebound they get is from luck, not positioning.

They are flawed, but they can beat every team in the League not from Detroit or San Antonio.

[Pandaemonaeon]

I think they're above average but they can beat elite teams because of the mismatches they create and that makes them dangerous. That's why I would rather have the Mavs face the Clippers than them. I don't think we could keep up with their running game and we're not in the level yet that we could control tempo like the Spurs do.

[JMarkJohns]

Considering the 2001 Bucks, The difference is that Sam Cassell wasn't a 2-time MVP, Tim Thomas wasn't Most Improved Player, and George Karl wasn't Coach of the Year. They were a nice little team that took advantage of the lack of size in the East. No one tried to make them more than that.

Yeah, but this team will advance having to go through several tough to very good to great post players.

Logic says they should be out by now, what, with their shot not falling and all... but they show heart, the scrap, they battle and they make others teams beat them.

Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

For a team with no inside post presense, no post depth and no rebounding, they aren't doing bad...

[Darrin]

Yeah, but this team will advance having to go through several tough to very good to great post players.

Elton Brand in his first postseason - that's the only guy the Suns have gone through. The Lakers were playing an equally-small Lamar Odom on Shawn Marion.


Logic says they should be out by now, what, with their shot not falling and all... but they show heart, the scrap, they battle and they make others teams beat them.

That's why pisses me off the most. They aren't winning on the merits of their team and the opportunity of a broken playoff system the way that the Clippers and Lakers would admit. They are winning because they are the rope-a-dope, never-say-die, feel-good sports story. The Rudy of the NBA with the 2-time MVP and the MIP.



For a team with no inside post presense, no post depth and no rebounding, they aren't doing bad...

Their opponents averaged 46 wins this season. The Spurs are doing the heaving lifting for them. When that was the case in the East 5 years ago, we called a duck a duck. Instead, the Suns "persevere." They "strive." They "show heart." As if the Lakers and Clippers are vastly superior athletes.

[zocool16]

gosh so i guess no one admires the fact of that they keep coming back? lol

[Darrin]

gosh so i guess no one admires the fact of that they keep coming back? lol

Not when judging their competition. Trust me, if this team were as good as advertised, they would be sitting at home, enjoying a good brew, wondering when the Spurs and Mavs would be done with their series.

Would you accept if the Spurs went 13 of 14 playoff games, fell down 3-1 to the Lakers, and needed overtime and last-second shots to beat the Clippers?

[RonMexico]

That's why pisses me off the most. They aren't winning on the merits of their team and the opportunity of a broken playoff system the way that the Clippers and Lakers would admit. They are winning because they are the rope-a-dope, never-say-die, feel-good sports story. The Rudy of the NBA with the 2-time MVP and the MIP.

What pisses you off the most? That your team shows no heart, no scrap and only attitudes and 'guaran-Sheed's'? That would piss me off too, since the Pistons' first two opponents only averaged 45 wins this season. But I guess Miami got the easy road...

[RonMexico]

Not when judging their competition. Trust me, if this team were as good as advertised, they would be sitting at home, enjoying a good brew, wondering when the Spurs and Mavs would be done with their series.

Just like the Pistons should be right? To quote you and most of your fans, your team has 64 wins, the "real MVP" (based on your "applying the same logic as Nash" diatribe), and the best team-based basketball in the playoffs. I guess they shouldn't be "witnessing" a 2-2 second-round series....

[RonMexico]

Elton Brand in his first postseason - that's the only guy the Suns have gone through. The Lakers were playing an equally-small Lamar Odom on Shawn Marion.


I guess Elton Brand at 6'8", 254 lbs. is considerably "smaller" than the 6'9", 240 lbs. Ben Wallace... or "equally-small" as the 6'10", 230 lbs. Lamar Odom... I think he also was saying that to get anywhere in these playoffs (i.e. past the WCF), they will have to go through either Tim Duncan or Dirk Nowitzki... both of whom are considered to be "very good" to "great" big men.

[RonMexico]

The Pistons worked their ass off to win 64 games this season. They've taken the hard road and WON A FREAKING CHAMPIONSHIP DOING IT! If they make the Conference Finals, IT WILL BE THE FIRST TIME THEY HAVE HAD HOMECOURT ADVANTAGE SINCE 2002-03. THEY HAVEN'T HAD HOMECOURT IN THE FINALS SINCE 1989-90!

They've won ELIMINATION GAMES ON the road against teams that won 59 games. The Clippers and Lakers aren't the Spurs and Heat. THE 61 WIN INDIANA PACERS WITH AN 8-GAME HOME WINNING STREAK IN THE PLAYOFFS - WON THEIR TWICE!

You're being an idiot!!! We're not talking about 2003, or even 1990!! We're talking about now!!! Wow, the 1993 Suns won twice in Chicago during the Finals!!!! YAY!!!!! Who cares about what Detroit did back then, just like you don't care what the Suns have done either! We're talking about NOW (by that, I mean, "now" - which according to dictionary.com means "At the present time")... Last year's Suns won on the road at Dallas in Game 6... should that mean anything now? No, it shouldn't.

What does mean something is that they shouldn't have been in that situation against the Lakers in the first place, but they fought back from 3-1 down and have continued to make a lot of adjustments in this entire post-season - without either of their two big men and a guy who was sent home by the Chicago Bulls. Likewise, can I bring up that in the past 3 years, the Pistons haven't swept a single playoff series, even against lowly opponents such as Milwaukee? Sure I can, because it's relevant to what is happening now. NOW, they are in a 2-2 series against media darling LeBron and they have been making a lot of mental mistakes and running their mouths off. You're trying to say the Suns were "advertised" as being "so good" when many people counted both the Lakers and the Clippers to beat them, and your team is not "sitting at home sipping on brew" so I'm trying to find where you possibly have a leg to stand on... especially since your 64-win team is "advertised" as being "great."

[RonMexico]

You think I'm happy with the Pistons performance in these playoffs? Did I say that? You should read outside Steve Nash MVP threads.

No one said you were happy - but you're acting like it, by saying that the Suns continue to win games despite not being the most talented, healthy, or strong team on the floor pisses you off. You should wish that your more talented team showed as much heart as the Suns do (or even as much as they did in those "hard-fought" years). I do read outside Nash MVP threads, and you're as big an idiot wherever you write.

[RonMexico]

Ok, Darrin - you're talking about two different things: the "marketing" of a team (which to you, means how many times they show up on national TV and/or on NBATV), and how the analysts "advertise" a team. Sure, the Suns are marketed a lot because they have friendly players and an energetic up-tempo style of basketball that can garner viewers and fans for the league, which is in the business to make money. However, this year's Suns was "advertised" as being softer, less talented and possibly staying around .500 for the season. Now, they are 1 win away from the WCF (after playing teams with higher "average" records than your Pistons have) and have won at least 2 games on the road thus far in Staples Center (including one game in OT facing elimation). On the other hand, your Pistons have been "advertised" as the leaders to win the championship this year. Therefore, because the Suns haven't gone as far as the 2004 Pistons did in the playoffs, don't discredit the road games they have won, by looking just at the total number of road games won. Therefore, if by some miracle, the Suns did win this year's championship, they would also have had only 2 homecourt series (of 4 - the other two being Mavs/Spurs and then Pistons - assumming your boys can get there).

Also, individual post-season awards don't define the entire nature of a team or how good that team is. Remember, you also voted for Kobe or LeBron to win the MVP, but would that change the players around them? No, so don't give that same treatment to Nash and the Suns. Everyone agrees that the Mavs, Pistons, and Spurs are the top 3 in the league, so stop bitching about mistreatment. Also, maybe if the Pistons protected their home floor better by not allowing opposing teams to shoot 53%, then they wouldn't be forced to win so many clutch games on the road...

[Darrin]

They are not different. The empty suits that determine the schedule are the same empty suits that hire analysts.

Preseason predictions soon went to the wayside, if you listened closely. During the All-Star Game all Doug Collins could talk about is Steve Nash's next MVP. Everyone has commented how great the Phoenix Suns have been. The pre-season predictions were actually better for the team because while the 2005 season (62-20) was compared to 2004 (29-53), the 2006 season (54-28) was compared to pre-season predictions (40-45 games).

Phoenix, even after Amare Stoudemire went down, didn't have games taken off their schedule. In the first 10 days of the season I saw them lose in overtime to the Mavs and to the Pistons in the 4th. Those are 2 of 30 games on national television (http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/printDS/87857) I had a chance to see 37% of thier schedule from Suburban Detroit. And in each and every broadcast, those adjectives I have grown tired of have been used over and over again.

That meant, for the NBA simply to justify that many games, they had to beef up the Suns. Believe me, they were sold. They weren't considered title contenders, but they were the most talked about team (maybe the Knicks) of the season. More than the Pistons, more than the Spurs, and more than the Mavericks. Don't tell me this team wasn't marketed.

As for the endless comparisons to the Pistons, the Pistons won 10 more games than the Suns. They are supposed to have an easy road to the Finals - that's the reward for winning regular season games. Check this out:

(seed) 2nd-round teams (opponents record)

West:
(3) Phoenix - 54-28 (46-36)
(6) LA Clippers - 47-35 (49-33)
(1) San Antono - 63-19 (52-30)
(4)Dallas - 60-22 (56-26)

East:
(1) Detroit - 64-18 (45-37)
(2) Miami - 52-30 (45-37)
(3) New Jersey - 49-33 (46.5-35.5)
(4) Cleveland - 50-32 (53-29)

Absent a huge upset (like an 8 upsetting a 1), the win-loss record usually reflects the seed (as it does in the East). That reward system isn't working out too well. It would've been better for the Spurs to let the Suns have the number one seed - tank games - in order to get an easier path to the Finals.

Playoff records:

West:
(4) Dallas - 7-1 (.875) - 8 games.
(6) Clippers - 6-4 (.600) - 10 games.
(3) Phoenix - 7-5 (.583) - 12 games.
(1) San Antonio - 5-5 (.500) - 10 games.

East:
(2) Miami - 8-3 (.730) - 11 games.
(1) Detroit - 6-3 (.667) - 9 games.
(4) Cleveland - 6-4 (.600) - 10 games.
(3) New Jersey - 5-6 (.455) - 11 games.

The easiest schedule and they have needed more playoff games than anyone else in the Conference to advance. If any team has "persevered," it's Dallas.

Individual Awards do define how a team is sold. And I am tired of the over-exposed Phoenix Suns.

Tell me, what have they accomplished besides winning 3 playoff series against the Memphis Grizzlies, Dallas Mavericks, and LA Lakers? What have they done? 30 games is outrageous. People constantly talking about this is outrageous. They are treated like the Chicago Bulls of 10 years ago. And you are crazy to believe otherwise.

53% is the OFG% on the road. The Pistons have protected homecourt:

5-0 in 2006 playoffs
Scoring: 106.6 PPG,
Allowed: 88.4 PPG
Margin: +18.2 (closest margin was +8)

I don't expect you to know that; only two of those games were on ABC or TNT.

Since 2002-03, when 4 of the 5 Pistons starters were contributing in the playoffs, the Pistons have played in 12 playoff series.

Pistons:
Orlando (2003) - Pistons win 4-3 (surrendered homecourt advantage in game 1).
Philadelphia (2003) - Pistons win 4-2.
New Jersey (2003) - Nets win 4-0 (surrendered homecourt advantage in games 1 and 2).
Milwaukee (2004) - Pistons win 4-1 (surrendered homecourt advantage in game 2).
New Jersey (2004) - Pistons win 4-3 (surrendered homecourt advantage in game 5 - 3OT).
Indiana (2004) - Pistons win 4-2 (did not have homecourt advantage).
LA Lakers (2004) - Pistons win 4-1 (did not have homecourt advantage).
Philadelphia (2005) - Pistons win 4-1.
Indiana (2005) - Pistons win 4-2 (surrendered homecourt advantage in game 2).
Miami (2005) - Pistons win 4-3 (did not have homecourt advantage).
San Antonio (2005) - Spurs win 4-3 (did not have homecourt advantage).
Milwaukee (2006) - Pistons win 4-1.

That's 12 completed playoff series. The Pistons have had homecourt, and lost at home in 5 of 8 playoff series.


The Suns (since you seemed determined to compare the two franchises):
Memphis (2005) - Suns win 4-0.
Dallas (2005) - Suns win 4-2 (surrendered homecourt in game 2)
San Antonio (2005) - Spurs win 4-1 (surrendered homecourt in games 1, 2, and 5).
LA Lakers (2006) - Suns win 4-3 (surrendered homecourt in game 2).
LA Clippers (2006) - Suns lead 3-2 (surrended homecourt in game 2).

In 5 playoff series, having homecourt in all of them, the Suns have surrendered homecourt (4 times) almost as many times as the Pistons (5) in 3 less playoff series. The only team they didn't surrender to? They haven't won a playoff game in 3 postseason appearances. They surrendered more games to the Spurs than the '03 Nets (2 games) did in the Finals with the leader-less Jason Kidd at the helm.

Before throwing stones, make sure you're not in a glass house.

[RonMexico]

Wow - that's a lot of numbers there... nice research... too bad it doesn't really back up your assertions like you'd hoped it would... I like how you change what I've said to make your argument better... unfortunately for you, the facts are right above your post and I'll quote line by line to make it easier for you:


They are not different. The empty suits that determine the schedule are the same empty suits that hire analysts.

I didn't know that Jack McCallum, Steve Kerr, Marc Stein, Bill Simmons, and worked for the NBA and/or where hired by the league front-office. I thought they were hired independently by Sports Illustrated, ESPN, and Yahoo! Sports. Whew! Good thing you people in Detroit have more information than we do down in Texas. Here I was thinking ESPN was a global company dedicated to 24-hr sports coverage, and this entire time it's just been an extension of David Stern's influence...


Preseason predictions soon went to the wayside, if you listened closely. During the All-Star Game all Doug Collins could talk about is Steve Nash's next MVP. Everyone has commented how great the Phoenix Suns have been. The pre-season predictions were actually better for the team because while the 2005 season (62-20) was compared to 2004 (29-53), the 2006 season (54-28) was compared to pre-season predictions (40-45 games).

I did listen closely - that's why I said (and I quote myself): "However, this year's Suns were 'advertised' as being softer, less talented and possibly staying around .500 for the season." I used this shift in perceptions to explain why people are still cheering for them being one win away from a second straight WCF appearence. Everyone expects Detroit to make it to the Finals for the third straight year, because, like you've said, they have the same starting 5 and 7 of 9 in the bench rotation. If they don't live up to these expectations, then it's Chauncey's (11 pt performances in Cleveland - a team that really doesn't play defense all that well) and Flip's faults. Likewise, it was Steve Nash's "fault" (and by "fault" I mean winning the MVP) that the Suns didn't end up .500 this season.


Phoenix, even after Amare Stoudemire went down, didn't have games taken off their schedule. In the first 10 days of the season I saw them lose in overtime to the Mavs and to the Pistons in the 4th. Those are 2 of 30 games on national television (http://www.azstarnet.com/sn/printDS/87857) I had a chance to see 37% of thier schedule from Suburban Detroit. And in each and every broadcast, those adjectives I have grown tired of have been used over and over again.

I was really happy that 30 games were nationally televised (a good chunk of those were on NBATV, too, which you failed to mention - or your in-depth research failed to reveal). I'd say about 10 of them were on NBATV this year and I know, because I live in Texas and don't get to see every Suns local broadcast, and I can't afford NBA League Pass so I'm not stuck in Suburban Phoenix enjoy all these games, but rather Rural College Station and relishing the opportunity to see a measly "37% of their schedule." I'm sure if you lived elsewhere, you would prefer more than a couple nationally televised Detroit games. No one is saying that I haven't grown tired of the adjectives as well. I think there are multiple phrases that are part of every sports broadcast (Dale dying at Daytona, Tiger winning the "grand slam", Chris Walker of the Texas A&M basketball team is a walk-on, the list goes on) that continually annoy me. I was not applauding the (in my opinion) terrible TV basketball coverage (and I think Doug Collins is an idiot - there's another one to look for: see how many times Doug mentions that he used to coach, or coached a certain player, or played with someone who is now coaching... maybe if he was any good at those, he'd still be doing it instead of making me rip my hair out during every Suns' broadcast).


Don't tell me this team wasn't marketed.

Ok, I won't - I'll quote myself from 10 hours ago:


Sure, the Suns are marketed a lot because they have friendly players and an energetic up-tempo style of basketball that can garner viewers and fans for the league, which is in the business to make money.

I guess that's settled.

Up next, you have a long list of seeding and other things that show how biased the seeding process is, which I don't want to quote because it's way too long. You have two distinct errors: #1, the Suns are the #2 seed, not the 3-seed as you have them listed. And #2, we're not talking about whether the currently-flawed seeding system rewards the correct teams - everybody knows that it doesn't! And the Suns walked into a great situation this year by getting the #2 seed. That's all obvious!!! Your argument was that the Suns "haven't done anything" because the teams they've played in the playoffs "averaged" 46 wins. Well, it's difficult for me to find merit in that argument because the dynastic Pistons haven't swept either of their series with teams that averaged only 45 wins, which I guess they should do since they do have the easy road to the Finals and won *gasp* 10 more games (in the low-talent Eastern Conference) than the Suns.


Individual Awards [i]do define how a team is sold. And I am tired of the over-exposed Phoenix Suns.

Sigh, I'll quote myself again:


Also, individual post-season awards don't define the entire nature of a team or how good that team is.

Again, I don't mention anything that remotely resembles the main point of your argument (which is that indvidual awards define how a team is sold). I do agree that individual awards define how a team is sold (or, in this case, "marketed"). I can't go back to your original and conflicting statement on this topic, because you deleted it. I hope you see how difficult and time-consuming it is to argue with someone as dumb as you and mikedetroit because even when we spell it out for you, you'll still come back with some kind of numbers game or links to Arizona newspaper articles.

I don't control what the media says about this team or how much they "over-expose" them, but I think a lot of this is because you're jaded that more post-season awards did not go to the Pistons. Yes, the Suns haven't done anything "real" in the playoffs the past 2 years because they haven't beaten SA or Detroit. But should I go back to when Grant Hill couldn't get out of the first round against the Hawks to describe when your team was under-achieving? No, I don't have to, because they are doing it right now by being locked in a 2-2 series with the Cavs. To quote you, "If they were as good as advertised, then they would be at home sipping a brew and waiting for [Miami] to finish its series."


53% is the OFG% on the road. The Pistons have protected homecourt:

I'm sorry I misunderstood. Now that you've deleted that post, I can't go back and describe how your poor diction confused me. (I think you said something like "the Pistons are letting opponents shoot 53% in their own gym" - you never defined who "their" was in that sentence, so I just assummed it was the Pistons.)

You continue on, against my wishes, to compare the two teams' recent playoff records (since the Suns didn't make the playoffs in 2004, when Detroit won the championship - there's already a discrepancy in the numbers). So the Pistons have lost on their home floor in 62.5% of their series and the Suns have lost in 80%. That's the extent of your argument... wow, awesome - I'm glad a team that has made the Finals 2 straight years and had the best record in the league this year protects its home floor very well. Once again, you deleted the post where you constantly claimed that winning quality games on the road was the key to post-season success (also mentioning the "franchise-record" Piston road wins this year). Based on your numbers, that would mean that the Suns have had to win a lot on the road in order to keep moving along in the playoffs (which is what I said), while Detroit probably has had a lot of home victories to help them out. So I guess you've made my point for me. It's easy to seem really cool and smart when you delete your previous posts and then come up with a whole new argument, so congratulations.


They surrendered more games to the Spurs than the '03 Nets (2 games) did in the Finals with the leader-less Jason Kidd at the helm.

This is the same Jason Kidd you said should have won the MVP that year, "based on the same logic applied to Steve Nash." Funny how he goes from MVP to "leader-less" in a week.


Before throwing stones, make sure you're not in a glass house.

You're actually right about this one. I do live in a glass house... how'd you know?!?

[CosmicCowboy]

Yeah, they are a great team. Why is everyone so far up the ass of this team?

uhhh...if Tim Duncan took the 2006 season off would the Spurs be in the second round of the playoffs? Amare is to the Suns what Duncan is to the Spurs. Suns deserve the props they are getting.

[RonMexico]

uhhh...if Tim Duncan took the 2006 season off would the Spurs be in the second round of the playoffs? Amare is to the Suns what Duncan is to the Spurs. Suns deserve the props they are getting.

Uh oh, Darrin is going to come back with all kinds of mad stats about Duncan and the Spurs to get you!! Watch out!!

[RonMexico]

Maybe I should start a national poll over which team is more fun to watch - Suns or Pistons... will that shut you up?

[mrpach]

the impressive bout the suns is that their best or second best player was out all year and they managed to get to semis, they dont play scrappy bball cuz they want to, next year they will have a monster season

[zocool16]

uhhh...if Tim Duncan took the 2006 season off would the Spurs be in the second round of the playoffs? Amare is to the Suns what Duncan is to the Spurs. Suns deserve the props they are getting.

not to take anything away from the suns...but amare is not to the suns what tim is to the spurs... if any suns player should get such a credit, that would be steve nash.

[RonMexico]

I guess the Pistons showed a lot of heart by losing on their home floor tonight...