Lawmaker says Marines killed Iraqis 'in cold blood'

[MaNuMaNiAc]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/18/murtha.marines/index.html


WASHINGTON (CNN) -- A decorated Marine colonel turned anti-war congressman said Wednesday that Marines killed at least 30 innocent Iraqi civilians "in cold blood" in Haditha in November, suggesting the attack is twice as bad as originally reported.

Rep. John Murtha, D-Pennsylvania, told reporters Wednesday that he got his information from U.S. commanders, who said the investigation will show that the Marines deliberately killed the civilians.

The U.S. Marine Corps has declined to comment on the report, which initially stated that 15 were killed.

"There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood," Murtha said. (Watch Murtha level accusations against the Marines -- 1:58 (javascript:cnnVideo('play','/video/world/2006/05/18/mcintyre.haditha.update.cnn','2006/05/25');))

Murtha, who was decorated for his service in Vietnam, said the death toll may be more than twice as high as originally reported.

"They actually went into the houses and killed women and children," the congressman said.

Citing an ongoing investigation, the Marine Corps said, "Any comment at this time would be inappropriate and could undermine the investigatory and possible legal process."

The Iraqi civilians were killed while troops from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines were looking for insurgents who planted a roadside bomb that killed a member of their unit.

At first, the Marines said the civilians were killed by a roadside bomb. Later, they suggested the victims may have been caught in a firefight.

An Iraqi human rights group, Hammurabi Human Rights Association, caught the scene on video, which was obtained by Time magazine. A criminal investigation ensued.

Time Warner is the parent company of Time magazine and CNN.

Last month, the battalion commander and two company commanders were relieved of their commands and reassigned to staff jobs at Camp Pendleton in California.

Sources close to the investigation said it is too soon to say whether anyone will face criminal charges, but key aspects of the original Marine account have not checked out.

Murtha supported the invasion of Iraq in 2003, but last November, he distanced himself from the Bush administration and called for the withdrawal of U.S. troops because of what he called "a flawed policy wrapped in illusion."


...

[Yonivore]

There is the possibility that the Marines did gun down innocent civilians as local Iraqis claim. But it is equally as possible that one or more people inside the house opened fire upon the Marines in an ambush after the IED went off. It has happened that way frequently, and that exact scenario left ABC anchor Bob Woodruff and cameraman Doug Vogt seriously wounded, when the IED attack that wounded them was followed by small arms fire from nearby buildings. The attack was broken when coalition forces counterattacked.

Someone who truly supports the troops, even if they do not support the war, would want this incident fully investigated to uncover the truth. They would want to know the facts.

They would want to know if the Marines fired out of blind rage at the loss of their friends, and they would be equally interested in finding out if the Marines assaulted that location because someone inside fired upon them, as they claimed. Was it a slaughter of innocents, or were insurgents firing from within civilian homes? Were those that triggered the IED among the dead?

We do not yet know, and some are already passing judgment.

Congressman John Murtha has now gone so far as to accuse American Marines of cold-blooded murder before an investigation has been completed, and roughly doubled the number of dead without any support for his charges, with the sole apparent goal of inflaming outrage at the expense of our military's safety.

It would seem appropriate that the United States House of Representatives should at the very least censure Congressman Murtha, who has gone so far out of his way to initiate such inflammatory and potentially dangerous rhetoric. He has dishonored his seat, the military criminal justice system, the Marine Corps and the United States of America.

How a man can make such vicious, unsupported claims and still claim to love the Marine Corps and America is beyond my understanding.

Sempre Fidelis, eh?

[Nbadan]

Here's a news report of the incident in Haditha courtesy of The Times


THE villagers of Abu Sifa near the Iraqi town of Balad had become used to the sound of explosions at night as American forces searched the area for suspected insurgents. But one night two weeks ago Issa Harat Khalaf heard a different sound that chilled him to the bone.

Khalaf, a 33-year-old security officer guarding oil pipelines, saw a US helicopter land near his home. American soldiers stormed out of the Chinook and advanced on a house owned by Khalaf’s brother Fayez, firing as they went.

Khalaf ran from his own house and hid in a nearby grove of trees. He saw the soldiers enter his brother’s home and then heard the sound of women and children screaming.

“Then there was a lot of machinegun fire,” he said last week. After that there was the most frightening sound of all — silence, followed by explosions as the soldiers left the house.

Once the troops were gone, Khalaf and his fellow villagers began a frantic search through the ruins of his brother’s home. Abu Sifa was about to join a lengthening list of Iraqi communities claiming to have suffered from American atrocities.

According to Iraqi police, 11 bodies were pulled from the wreckage of the house, among them four women and five children aged between six months and five years. An official police report obtained by a US reporter for Knight Ridder newspapers said: “The American forces gathered the family members in one room and executed 11 people.”

THE TIMES ONLINE (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2089-2103695,00.html)

From the Times


"The available evidence does not provide conclusive proof that the Marines deliberately killed innocents in Haditha. But the accounts of human-rights groups that investigated the incident and survivors and local officials who spoke to Time do raise questions about whether the extent of force used by the Marines was justified—and whether the Marines were initially candid about what took place. Dr. Wahid, director of the local hospital in Haditha, who asked that his family name be withheld because, he says, he fears reprisals by U.S. troops, says the Marines brought 24 bodies to his hospital around midnight on Nov. 19. Wahid says the Marines claimed the victims had been killed by shrapnel from the roadside bomb. "But it was obvious to us that there were no organs slashed by shrapnel," Wahid says. "The bullet wounds were very apparent. Most of the victims were shot in the chest and the head--from close range."

A day after the incident, a Haditha journalism student videotaped the scene at the local morgue and at the homes where the killings had occurred. The video was obtained by the Hammurabi Human Rights Group, which cooperates with the internationally respected Human Rights Watch, and has been shared with Time. The tape makes for grisly viewing. It shows that many of the victims, especially the women and children, were still in their nightclothes when they died. The scenes from inside the houses show that the walls and ceilings are pockmarked with shrapnel and bullet holes as well as the telltale spray of blood. But the video does not reveal the presence of any bullet holes on the outside of the houses, which may cast doubt on the Marines' contention that after the ied exploded, the Marines and the insurgents engaged in a fierce gunfight.

There are also questions about why the military took so long to investigate the details of the Haditha incident. Soon after the killings, the mayor of Haditha, Emad Jawad Hamza, led an angry delegation of elders up to the Marine camp beside a dam on the Euphrates River. Hamza says, "The captain admitted that his men had made a mistake. He said that his men thought there were terrorists near the houses, and he didn't give any other reason."

But the military stood by its initial contention—that the Iraqis had been killed by an insurgent bomb—until January when Time gave a copy of the video and witnesses' testimony to Colonel Barry Johnson, a U.S. military spokesman in Baghdad. After reviewing the evidence, Johnson passed it on to the military command, suggesting that the events of Haditha be given "a full and formal investigation." In February an infantry colonel went to Haditha for a weeklong probe in which he interviewed Marines, survivors and doctors at the morgue, according to military officials close to the investigation. The probe concluded that the civilians were in fact killed by Marines and not by an insurgent's bomb and that no insurgents appeared to be in the first two houses raided by the Marines. The probe found, however, that the deaths were the result of "collateral damage" rather than malicious intent by the Marines, investigators say."

The U.S. has paid relatives of the victims $2,500 for each of the 15 dead civilians, plus smaller payments for the injured. But nothing can bring back all that was taken from 9-year-old Eman Waleed on that fateful day last November. She still does not comprehend how, when her father went in to pray with the Koran for the family's safety, his prayers were not answered, as they had been so many times in the past. "He always prayed before, and the Americans left us alone," she says. Leaving, she grabs a handful of candy. "It's for my little brother," she says. "I have to take care of my brother. Nobody else is left."

TIME (http://www.time.com/time/world/printout/0,8816,1174649,00.html)

[Vashner]

Murtha...... what a joke..

Even if some Marines did wrong military will investigate this and deal with it.

But to try to paint all Marines serving in Iraq as mindless babykillers is sad.

[xrayzebra]

In wartime or anytime, is there any other way people are killed other than
cold blood. Excluding accidental death. It is really, really, really nice to be able
to sit in a nice quite place and second guess someone who has hot lead
whizzing around their head.

[Vashner]

Marines FIGHT FOR the Babies in Iraq.. not against...

Murtha and his twisted friends on the left not only paint the Modern Marine as a dumb fool that was too poor to go to college and to dumb not to join. Forced to join because of the "Bush" economy lack of jobs.

They go thru training and all the way to Iraq to seek OUT innocent people and kill them.

Murtha and his buddies are now full blown Al Queda sympathizers.

[xrayzebra]

Yep, agree completely Vashner. Some of these people who call
our fighting men dumb and stupid ought to try and operate/repair/
do a little PM on some the equipment and then come talk to me
about them being dumb and stupid, unable to do anything else but
kill people.

[John Doe]

You know most people with this mentality are ones who've never had the misfortune of experiencing war and it's effects. I'm active duty and I have yet to be deployed but it's a scary thought of what I would/could do in those types of situations. I can't place blame (not fully anyway) on them for such incidents when they have no clue who the enemy is. Not to mention the emotional ups and downs one goes through when it's "them or me".

[velik_m]

In wartime or anytime, is there any other way people are killed other than
cold blood. Excluding accidental death. It is really, really, really nice to be able
to sit in a nice quite place and second guess someone who has hot lead
whizzing around their head.

yes, but killing civilians in cold blood is a war crime.

the whole mess in Iraq right now, should be handled by police - they are trained for dealing with criminals in urban enviroment - not by army. sadly international police units are not strong enough in numbers to be considered for this operation as countries cannot spare enough policemen. Also the Iraq police is not trained/equiped enough for this either.

[chode_regulator]

someone who was in vietnam questioning marines ethics? right, bc in vietnam no innocent people got killed :rolleyes
its war, shit happens. no one here knows whathappened, especially not some old decrepit ass man who has no evidence otherthan what he says. i could make some shit up and hold a press conference on it.
why dont you ask some of the grunts who go into a building and get popped in the head by an ak47 bc they hesitated what its like?oh wait, you cant. you fucking hesitate, you die.
and again, how come none of the good stories get told. the war heroes that are there and the good things the soldiers do accomplish?
do i want to go to iraq? no. am i going? yes. would i hesitate to shoot if i thought i was in danger, no. kinda funny how people judge who have no idea hwat even happened bc anytime theres a military investigation that shit is wrapped up under lock and key til its all done and a report has been released.

[xrayzebra]

yes, but killing civilians in cold blood is a war crime.

the whole mess in Iraq right now, should be handled by police - they are trained for dealing with criminals in urban enviroment - not by army. sadly international police units are not strong enough in numbers to be considered for this operation as countries cannot spare enough policemen. Also the Iraq police is not trained/equiped enough for this either.

Not in all cases, dummy. Hell you would condemn anyone that is in this
war in Iraq. I would like to hear your definition of civilian. You mean like
14 year old kids and women blowing themselves up. If they can convince
them to do that, don't think they would have much trouble finding someone
to hold an AK-47 and shooting at some nice Christians. Get policemen to
handle the problem, my Aunt Maude, you need some common sense. You
need to go over there and figure out which are the bad guys while being
shot at. And then let us know, okay?

[chode_regulator]

You
need to go over there and figure out which are the bad guys while being
shot at. And then let us know, okay?
agreed
i was watching black hawk down the other day and it reminded me of the same situatino as iraq, no one wears uniforms, no one sticks out, anyone could have a gun. and youre expected to go into houses and clear them and not make mistakes? :rolleyes

[mookie2001]

cant they just blog us the info?

[velik_m]

Not in all cases, dummy. Hell you would condemn anyone that is in this
war in Iraq. I would like to hear your definition of civilian. You mean like
14 year old kids and women blowing themselves up. If they can convince
them to do that, don't think they would have much trouble finding someone
to hold an AK-47 and shooting at some nice Christians. Get policemen to
handle the problem, my Aunt Maude, you need some common sense. You
need to go over there and figure out which are the bad guys while being
shot at. And then let us know, okay?

In times of armed conflict a civilian is any person who is not a combatant.

Cold blooded murder of civilians in a war is a war crime in all cases, dummy.

Crimes Against Humanity as defined by London Charter of the International Military Tribunal (Nuremberg trials): namely, murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war; or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated.

(read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_humanity)

The sitiuation in Somalia was much worse than in Iraq (and i'm not even going to comment on using a movie as a source by chode). I believe enough trained police troops could handle the situation better, you are free to your own opinion.

[xrayzebra]

^^so how do we figure out who is a "combatant" and who isn't, since they are
not in any uniform. By the way, our neighbors to the South, Mexico, seems to
be having a small problem with their police force controlling the country. And
they are a "peaceful" country. Want to run down to Neuva Laredo for a drink and
dinner? The police will protect you, so long as they aren't in there eating and
getting shot.

[chode_regulator]

In times of armed conflict a civilian is any person who is not a combatant.

Cold blooded murder of civilians in a war is a war crime in all cases, dummy.

Crimes Against Humanity as defined by London Charter of the International Military Tribunal (Nuremberg trials): namely, murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation, and other inhumane acts committed against any civilian population, before or during the war; or persecutions on political, racial or religious grounds in execution of or in connection with any crime within the jurisdiction of the Tribunal, whether or not in violation of the domestic law of the country where perpetrated.

(read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_against_humanity)

The sitiuation in Somalia was much worse than in Iraq (and i'm not even going to comment on using a movie as a source by chode). I believe enough trained police troops could handle the situation better, you are free to your own opinion.
ok aparently you completely missed the point. im nto using a fucking movie as a source. but if youre going to sit there and tell me that the situatin is not similar then, well i wont call you an idiot. but, youre an idiot. ive talked to pepole who have been to both places and they say iraq is actually worse in alot of ways.

[Vashner]

Somalia was just 1 company of rangers without air support.

That will NEVER HAPPEN under GW BUSH..

If Marines want a building blown up or are pinned down THEY GONN BLOW SOME SHIT THE FUCK UP.. they don't have to call Clinton's little side office while he's getting &&&&,,, armor and air support.

Iraq is no Somalia. It was a UN food operation.

Iraq is to attack a stronghold of radical islam. We are at war with ALL of radical islam.

And NO CNN Can't have the full battle fucking plan.. that would be stupid ..

EDIT ADD: BTW... In case you didn't know we had a Marine expeditionary group there.. You think the Somalies took them on? Hell no they waited till they left and just a small army detachment was there.

[velik_m]

^^so how do we figure out who is a "combatant" and who isn't, since they are
not in any uniform. By the way, our neighbors to the South, Mexico, seems to
be having a small problem with their police force controlling the country. And
they are a "peaceful" country. Want to run down to Neuva Laredo for a drink and
dinner? The police will protect you, so long as they aren't in there eating and
getting shot.

Shooting first and asking later is not the right way. Yes i know it's hard, but nobody said being the good guy was easy.

[Harry Reid]

Shooting first and asking later is not the right way. Yes i know it's hard, but nobody said being the good guy was easy.

That's what I have always said. I support the troops, just not the war.

[Nbadan]

A dozen Marines may face courts-martial for alleged Iraq massacre


A key member of Congress said he “wouldn’t be surprised” if a dozen Marines faced courts-martial for allegedly killing Iraqi civilians Nov. 19.

Rep. John Murtha, D-Pa., told Marine Corps Times that the number of dead Iraqis, first reported to be 15, was actually 24. He based that number on a briefing from Marine Corps Commandant Gen. Mike Hagee on Wednesday.

Hagee visited Capitol Hill in anticipation of the release of two investigation reports, which are expected to show that among the 24 dead civilians, five of the alleged victims, all unarmed, were shot in a car with no warning, Murtha said. The killings took place in Hadithah, 125 miles northwest of Baghdad.

At least seven of the victims were women and three were children.

“If the allegations are substantiated, the Marine Corps will pursue appropriate legal and administrative actions against those responsible,” said Col. David Lapan, a spokesman at Marine Corps headquarters.

Marine Times (http://marinetimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1823925.php)

[DFW Spurs]

I have served in the Marines and have friends and family in Iraq right now. My brother-in-law had a buddy of his killed by a 10 yr old boy with an RPG in January while they were protecting a convoy. Don't be so naive to think anyone is innocent. The same rules of engagement we use to engage the enemy is not the same rules they follow. They have none. So before anyone is quick to judge these men lets get all the facts straight. This is all speculative.

[xrayzebra]

^^Just another way they "support" the troops. Murtha needs to
get a life and turn in his Marine credentials, he is a turncoat to
the service he so proudly claims to be a part of. All he is now is
a cheap politician like many in Washington.

[JoeChalupa]

The Casualties of War.


Semper Fi!!!!!

[DFW Spurs]

"The Casualties of War." I think that was a movie about the Army. Didn't Murtha direct it? :blah

[CommanderMcBragg]

I thought it starred Alex Keaton.

[Yonivore]

I'm really surprised this thread didn't turn into a discussion about Jesse MacBeth, the 21st Century John Kerry "winter soldier."

[Oh, Gee!!]

Aren't we all. *rolls eyes*

[JoeChalupa]

Semper Fi!

[boutons_]

May 26, 2006

The Investigation

Military Expected to Report Marines Killed Iraqi Civilians

By THOM SHANKER, ERIC SCHMITT and RICHARD A. OPPEL JR.

This article is by Thom Shanker, Eric Schmitt and Richard A. Oppel Jr.

WASHINGTON, May 25 — A military investigation into the deaths of two dozen Iraqis last November is expected to find that a small number of marines in western Iraq carried out extensive, unprovoked killings of civilians, Congressional, military and Pentagon officials said Thursday.

Two lawyers involved in discussions about individual marines' defenses said they thought the investigation could result in charges of murder, a capital offense. That possibility and the emerging details of the killings have raised fears that the incident could be the gravest case involving misconduct by American ground forces in Iraq.

Officials briefed on preliminary results of the inquiry said the civilians killed at Haditha, a lawless, insurgent-plagued city deep in Sunni-dominated Anbar Province, did not die from a makeshift bomb, as the military first reported, or in cross-fire between marines and attackers, as was later announced. A separate inquiry has begun to find whether the events were deliberately covered up.

Evidence indicates that the civilians were killed during a sustained sweep by a small group of marines that lasted three to five hours and included shootings of five men standing near a taxi at a checkpoint, and killings inside at least two homes that included women and children, officials said.

That evidence, described by Congressional, Pentagon and military officials briefed on the inquiry, suggested to one Congressional official that the killings were "methodical in nature."

Congressional and military officials say the Naval Criminal Investigative Service inquiry is focusing on the actions of a Marine Corps staff sergeant serving as squad leader at the time, but that Marine officials have told members of Congress that up to a dozen other marines in the unit are also under investigation. Officials briefed on the inquiry said that most of the bullets that killed the civilians were now thought to have been "fired by a couple of rifles," as one of them put it.

The killings were first reported by Time magazine in March, based on accounts from survivors and human rights groups, and members of Congress have spoken publicly about the episode in recent days. But the new accounts from Congressional, military and Pentagon officials added significant new details to the picture. All of those who discussed the case had to be granted anonymity before they would talk about the findings emerging from the investigation.

A second, parallel inquiry was ordered by the second-ranking general in Iraq to examine whether any marines on the ground at Haditha, or any of their superior officers, tried to cover up the killings by filing false reports up the chain of command. That inquiry, conducted by an Army officer assigned to the Multinational Corps headquarters in Iraq, is expected to report its findings in coming days.

In an unusual sign of high-level concern, the commandant of the Marine Corps, Gen. Michael W. Hagee, flew from Washington to Iraq on Thursday to give a series of speeches to his forces re-emphasizing compliance with international laws of armed conflict, the Geneva Conventions and the American military's own rules of engagement.

( the good General should next fly to the WH/DOJ/CIA give the same speech )

"Recent serious allegations concerning actions of marines in combat have caused me concern," General Hagee said in a statement issued upon his departure. The statement did not mention any specific incident.

The first official report from the military, issued on Nov. 20, said that "a U.S. marine and 15 Iraqi civilians were killed yesterday from the blast of a roadside bomb" and that "immediately following the bombing, gunmen attacked the convoy with small-arms fire."

Military investigators have since uncovered a far different set of facts from what was first reported, partly aided by marines who are cooperating with the inquiry and partly guided by reports filed by a separate unit that arrived to gather intelligence and document the attack; those reports contradicted the original version of the marines, Pentagon officials said.

One senior Defense Department official who has been briefed on the initial findings, when asked how many of the 24 dead Iraqis were killed by the improvised bomb as initially reported, paused and said, "Zero."

While Haditha was rife with violence and gunfire that day, the marines, who were assigned to the Third Battalion, First Marines, and are now back at Camp Pendleton, Calif., "never took what would constitute hostile fire of a seriously threatening nature," one Pentagon official said.

Women and children were among those killed, as well as five men who had been traveling in a taxi near the bomb, which killed Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas of El Paso.

Although investigators are still piecing together the string of deaths, Congressional and Pentagon officials said the five men in the taxi either were pulled out or got out at a Marine checkpoint and were shot.

The deaths of those in the taxi, and inside two nearby houses, were not the result of a quick and violent firefight, according to officials who had been briefed on the inquiry.

"This was not a burst of fire, but a sustained operation over several hours, maybe five hours," one official said. Forensic evidence gathered from the houses where Iraqi civilians died is also said to contradict reports that the marines had to overcome hostile fire to storm the homes.

Members of the House and Senate briefed on the Haditha shootings by senior Marine officers, including General Hagee and Brig. Gen. John F. Kelly, the Marine legislative liaison, voiced concerns Thursday about the seriousness of the accusations.

Representative John Kline, a Minnesota Republican who is a retired Marine colonel, said that the allegations indicated that "this was not an accident. This was direct fire by marines at civilians." He added, "This was not an immediate response to an attack. This would be an atrocity."

The deaths, and the role of the marines in those deaths, is being viewed with such alarm that senior Marine Corps officers briefed members of Congress last week and again on Wednesday and Thursday.

The briefings were in part an effort to prevent the kind of angry explosion from Capitol Hill that followed news of detainee abuse by American military jailers at Abu Ghraib prison, which had been quietly under investigation for months before the details of the abuse were leaked to the news media. "If the accounts as they have been alleged are true, the Haditha incident is likely the most serious war crime that has been reported in Iraq since the beginning of the war," said John Sifton, of Human Rights Watch. "Here we have two dozen civilians being killed — apparently intentionally. This isn't a gray area. This is a massacre."

Three Marine officers — the battalion commander and two company commanders in Haditha at the time — have been relieved of duty, although official statements have declined to link that action to the investigation.

Senator John W. Warner, a Virginia Republican who heads the Armed Services Committee, said he expected senators would review investigators' evidence, including photographs by military photographers that Mr. Warner said were "taken as a matter of routine in Iraq on operations of this nature when there's loss of life."

Lawyers who have been in conversations with the marines under investigation stressed the chaotic situation in Haditha at the time of the killings. And they expect that the defense will stress that insurgents often hide among civilians, that Haditha on the day of the shootings was suffering a wave of fluid insurgent attacks and that the marines responded to high levels of hostile action aimed at them.

Much of the area around Haditha is controlled by Sunni Arab insurgents who have made the city one of the deadliest in Iraq for American troops. On Aug. 1, three months before the massacre, insurgents ambushed and killed six Marine snipers moving through Haditha on foot. Insurgents released a video after the ambush that appeared to show the attack, and the mangled and burned body of a dead serviceman. Then, two days later, 14 marines were killed when their armored vehicle was destroyed by a roadside bomb near the southern edge of the city.

The Marines also disclosed this week that a preliminary inquiry had found "sufficient information" to recommend a criminal probe into the killing of an Iraqi civilian on April 26 near Hamandiyah, a village west of Baghdad.

Thom Shanker and Eric Schmitt reported from Washington for this article, and Richard A. Oppel Jr. from Baghdad, Iraq.

Copyright 2006 (http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html) The New York Times Company (http://www.nytco.com/)

============================

Extremely sad situation for Marines and the US image in the world. But, as the right-wingers here love to signal: "boys will be boys", and "they are our boys (and our dubya), right or wrong"

Can't wait to hear how rummy will handle this one with his usual fog of hair-splitting inanities.

In the week where the WH is trying fog over the dickhead/scooter shit by violating the spirit of the separation of powers (only respected when the Congressman is a Repug) by sending the Exec branch raiding the Legislative offices (a Dem congressman, naturally), they have the Marines shoot the WH fulll of holes, and further turn the US people against the WH, Repugs, and the phony Iraq war.

[xrayzebra]

^^boutons, I thought would you have posted the NYT story that was in
in the "Express-News" this morning. They have already tried,
convicted and almost sentenced these troops and some of the
folks in Washington is feeding this "information" to the NYT. There
may be some troops who have done something wrong, but it would
be nice if we waited until we got the whole story. I am not going
to hang them till I know the complete story. There are two
paragraphs in the story you posted that tells a whole lot of what
these troops faced:

"Lawyers who have been in conversations with the marines under investigation stressed the chaotic situation in Haditha at the time of the killings. And they expect that the defense will stress that insurgents often hide among civilians, that Haditha on the day of the shootings was suffering a wave of fluid insurgent attacks and that the marines responded to high levels of hostile action aimed at them.

Much of the area around Haditha is controlled by Sunni Arab insurgents who have made the city one of the deadliest in Iraq for American troops. On Aug. 1, three months before the massacre, insurgents ambushed and killed six Marine snipers moving through Haditha on foot. Insurgents released a video after the ambush that appeared to show the attack, and the mangled and burned body of a dead serviceman. Then, two days later, 14 marines were killed when their armored vehicle was destroyed by a roadside bomb near the southern edge of the city."

Until you have walked in their shoes don't be so quick to judge.
Until you have hot lead buzzing around you head, don't be so
quick to judge.

As far as Rummy, I don't think he will cover anything up. There is
no point.

[JoeChalupa]

This stuff happens in every war.

[boutons_]

"This stuff happens in every war."

Exactly. Inevitability is no excuse. That's one of the reasons starting a fucking war is such a crushing responsbility, with repercussions beyond anybody's imagination.

The shrub-in-chief put his own men in a horrible, apparently no-win situation by starting this phony Repug war for bullshit lies.

dubya/dickhead/rummy/wolfie/condi/colin should be impeached and serve prison time along with any Marines that are dishonorably discharged and/or imprisoned.

[smeagol]

That's one of the reasons starting a fucking war is such a crushing responsbility, with repercussions beyond anybody's imagination.

The shrub-in-chief put his own men in a horrible, apparently no-win situation by starting this phony Repug war for bullshit lies.
Although I hardly ever agree with Buttons, I think he has a point.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

This stuff happens in every war.
amazing... I suppose that makes it alright, doesn't it? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Here is another article about the incident from CNN

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/05/26/marines.haditha/index.html



Pentagon sources: Civilians likely killed without provocation

Photos from scene said to be 'inconsistent' with Marine account

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- An ongoing military investigation supports allegations that U.S. Marines in November killed 24 innocent Iraqi civilians without being provoked, senior Pentagon sources said Friday. Charges, including murder, could soon be filed against Marines allegedly involved, the sources said.

The killings reportedly occurred while troops from the 3rd Battalion, 1st Marines were searching for insurgents who planted a roadside bomb that killed a member of the unit.

The Marines originally had reported that 15 civilians were killed by a roadside bomb in Haditha, a city along the Euphrates River in western Iraq. The Marines later suggested the civilians may have been caught in a firefight.

However, photographs being reviewed by investigators "are inconsistent with how the Marines claim the Iraqis died," according to a military source familiar with the investigation.

An Iraqi human rights group, Hammurabi Human Rights Association, caught the scene on video, which was obtained by Time magazine. A criminal investigation ensued. Time Warner is the parent company of Time magazine and CNN.

Last week, Rep. John Murtha, D-Pennsylvania, a decorated retired Marine colonel who is opposed to the war in Iraq, said the investigation of the Haditha deaths would show that the civilian toll was higher than 15 and that the Marines killed them "in cold blood." He said he received his information from U.S. commanders.

"There was no firefight. There was no IED that killed these innocent people. Our troops overreacted because of the pressure on them, and they killed innocent civilians in cold blood," Murtha said. "They actually went into the houses and killed women and children."

The Marine battalion commander and two company commanders have been relieved of their commands and reassigned to staff posts at Camp Pendleton, California.

Separate accusations surfaced earlier this month that Marines from the 3rd Battalion, 5th Marine Regiment killed a civilian near Hamandiya, west of Baghdad, on April 26.

Several Marines from the regiment were sent back to the United States, and Maj. Gen. Richard Zilmer, commander of 1st Marines Expeditionary Force, asked that the Naval Criminal Investigative Service look into allegations made by Iraqis to Marine commanders at a May 1 meeting.

Sen. John Warner, R-Virginia, said Thursday that he would rank both incidents as "very, very serious allegations." There is no timeline set for either investigation, but he expects both to be completed quickly, said Warner, who chairs the Senate Armed Forces Committee.

The two incidents prompted Gen. Michael Hagee, commandant of the Marine Corps, to fly to Iraq on Thursday and speak to Marines about the use of force in a speech titled "On Marine Virtue."

"We do not employ force just for the sake of employing force. We use lethal force only when justified, proportional and, most importantly, lawful," Hagee said, according to a copy of his speech released by the Marine Corps. "This is the American way of war. We must regulate force and violence, we only damage property that must be damaged and we protect the non-combatants we find on the battlefield."

[Nbadan]

Another Haditha massacre witness has come forward:


BAGHDAD, Iraq--Witnesses to the slaying of 24 Iraqi civilians by U.S. Marines in the western town of Haditha say the Americans shot men, women and children at close range in retaliation for the death of a Marine lance corporal in a roadside bombing.

Aws Fahmi, a Haditha resident who said he watched and listened from his home as Marines went from house to house killing members of three families, recalled hearing his neighbor across the street, Younis Salim Khafif, plead in English for the lives of himself and his family. ``I heard Younis speaking to the Americans, saying: 'I am a friend. I am good,' '' said Fahmi. ``But they killed him, and his wife and daughters.''

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/26/AR2006052602069.html)

With flimsy evidence like eyewitnesses and video ANYTHING could have happened. We learned that lesson at the Ramadi wedding where guests suddenly whipped out AK's and started shooting Americans! Those crafty insurgents will do anything to cover their tracks. And we're only six months into that "investigation". Time will tell. Time will...z-z-z-z. :sleep

[smeagol]

It's amazing to me the marines would get prosecuted for this. In an army of any other country, the public would never hear of these incidents.

[boutons_]

Unamazingly, there will be a whitewash of the supposed killers and the higher ups who covered up.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

It's amazing to me the marines would get prosecuted for this. In an army of any other country, the public would never hear of these incidents.
whats your point? should the United States army feel justified to commit atrocities like this simply because in other corrupt countries people don't find out about it?

I think I probably missunderstood your point though, what did you mean?

[chode_regulator]

whats your point? should the United States army feel justified to commit atrocities like this simply because in other corrupt countries people don't find out about it?

I think I probably missunderstood your point though, what did you mean?
first off, we're not talking abnout the army, we're talking about the marine corps. dont ever throw us in the same mix as the army, whether its good news or bad news.
secondly i believe th point being made is the poster was amazed that news like this gets out for the public to even form an opinion about.

[JoeChalupa]

amazing... I suppose that makes it alright, doesn't it? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

Did I say it made it right? :rolleyes :rolleyes

Those guilty need and should be punished by the full extent of the law, serve time in the brig, be dishonorably discharged and NOT what represents the Marine Corps.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

first off, we're not talking abnout the army, we're talking about the marine corps. dont ever throw us in the same mix as the army, whether its good news or bad news.
secondly i believe th point being made is the poster was amazed that news like this gets out for the public to even form an opinion about.
my bad, United States Marines then

I find the fact that the US is willing to admit and inform about its wrong doings (be it Marines or Army) very admirable. I think the US is far ahead of almost every country in that regard. It still, however, does not make the incident excusable (I know nobody was excusing it, I'm just saying).

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Did I say it made it right? :rolleyes :rolleyes

Those guilty need and should be punished by the full extent of the law, serve time in the brig, be dishonorably discharged and NOT what represents the Marine Corps.
no, you're right you didn't. However, when you said "This stuff happens in every war" it did seem as though you were trying to dismiss the incident as unimportant byproduct of the war.

[JoeChalupa]

Every branch of military service has undesirables serving.

[JoeChalupa]

no, you're right you didn't. However, when you said "This stuff happens in every war" it did seem as though you were trying to dismiss the incident as unimportant byproduct of the war.

My point was that WAR in itself is an atrocity, although a necessary one at times, and innocent people die. That is why I get so :cuss when I hear shit like "bring 'em on!", from someone who has no idea what war is like. I wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy.

There is so much more to it. The thousands of men and women who are pemanently scarred for life by what they've seen and experienced. Nobody comes home the same..nobody.

I know I didn't.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

My point was that WAR in itself is an atrocity, although a necessary one at times, and innocent people die. That is why I get so :cuss when I hear shit like "bring 'em on!", from someone who has no idea what war is like. I wouldn't wish it on my worse enemy.

There is so much more to it. The thousands of men and women who are pemanently scarred for life by what they've seen and experienced. Nobody comes home the same..nobody.

I know I didn't.
I really don't know much about war, other than what I read in books, which is to say, practically nothing. I do believe however, that as atrocious as a war can be, the military should at the very least hold itself up to the values of the society its fighting to defend, don't you think? I mean, this kind of incident cannot and must not be considered trivial.

I expect, if and when the guilty are found, they recieve the maximum punishment available (barring some extenuating circumstance).

[JoeChalupa]

I really don't know much about war, other than what I read in books, which is to say, practically nothing. I do believe however, that as atrocious as a war can be, the military should at the very least hold itself up to the values of the society its fighting to defend, don't you think? I mean, this kind of incident cannot and must not be considered trivial.

I expect, if and when the guilty are found, they recieve the maximum punishment available (barring some extenuating circumstance).

I concur. This incident should NOT ever be considered trivial. Marines live by a code of honor and those accused, if guilty, did NOT uphold that honor.

[smeagol]

whats your point? should the United States army feel justified to commit atrocities like this simply because in other corrupt countries people don't find out about it?

I think I probably missunderstood your point though, what did you mean?

I meant what I said. I guess you are saying something similar here:


I find the fact that the US is willing to admit and inform about its wrong doings (be it Marines or Army) very admirable. I think the US is far ahead of almost every country in that regard. It still, however, does not make the incident excusable (I know nobody was excusing it, I'm just saying).

[boutons_]

I'm sure the US military would love to cover this up if they could have kept it purely within the military since there is already an investigation into a coverup, but were forced into owning up after info come from the Iraqis, journalists, etc.

Exactly the same with Abu Ghraib-ass,
the NSA domestic spying crimes contravening FISA,
the extraordinary rendition to foreign countries,
the secret use of foreign prisons.

NONE of these exposes hurt the anything Repugs politically. Of course, the US, thanks to the Repugs, has abandoned the moral highground that much of the world, including US citizens, expects the US to occupy. The Repugs are truly repugnant motherfuckers fucking up everthing they touch.

The sooner they are out of power, starting this November, the better for the world.

[chode_regulator]

for those of you questioning what happened, i suggest you watch, if you get a chnace, the documentary on the A&E channel
its called combat diary/lima company, or something along those lines. its about a reserve marine unit that went to iraq for 7 months in 05. it helps let civilians understand where this rage comes from. im not saying that just bc youre mad its ok to kill innocents, but this documentary shows just how hard it is over htere and how if you hesitate, even for a second, youre dead.
alot of you get to sit back here and debate shit and second guess shit. but you dont have a chance of dying. yeah you could get ran over by a bus or some other happy bullshit like that but i mean you dont ever have to bust down a door and wonder whats on the other side. until you do, shut the fuck up. im sure ill get flamed for this but i dont care. bc of me and others like me, you have this right. if you dont like it, move to fucking russia, canada, cuba or fuck for all i care move to goddamn iraq.

[chode_regulator]

I'm sure the US military would love to cover this up if they could have kept it purely within the military since there is already an investigation into a coverup, but were forced into owning up after info come from the Iraqis, journalists, etc.

Exactly the same with Abu Ghraib-ass,
the NSA domestic spying crimes contravening FISA,
the extraordinary rendition to foreign countries,
the secret use of foreign prisons.

NONE of these exposes hurt the anything Repugs politically. Of course, the US, thanks to the Repugs, has abandoned the moral highground that much of the world, including US citizens, expects the US to occupy. The Repugs are truly repugnant motherfuckers fucking up everthing they touch.

The sooner they are out of power, starting this November, the better for the world.
youre an idiot. and so is anyone else who likes to think democraps are beter than repugs. theyre all the fucking same, they dont care about us. all they want is their job and the fucking perks. the fact that people think any politician actually cares about its constiuents blows my mind.

[JoeChalupa]

for those of you questioning what happened, i suggest you watch, if you get a chnace, the documentary on the A&E channel
its called combat diary/lima company, or something along those lines. its about a reserve marine unit that went to iraq for 7 months in 05. it helps let civilians understand where this rage comes from. im not saying that just bc youre mad its ok to kill innocents, but this documentary shows just how hard it is over htere and how if you hesitate, even for a second, youre dead.
alot of you get to sit back here and debate shit and second guess shit. but you dont have a chance of dying. yeah you could get ran over by a bus or some other happy bullshit like that but i mean you dont ever have to bust down a door and wonder whats on the other side. until you do, shut the fuck up. im sure ill get flamed for this but i dont care. bc of me and others like me, you have this right. if you dont like it, move to fucking russia, canada, cuba or fuck for all i care move to goddamn iraq.

I served for the right for EVERYONE to speak out, not just for those who agree with my point of view. Sorry, but I don't agree with the "if you don't like it leave" rhetoric some like to spew.
Semper Fi!
From what I've read there was no justification for the killings, but I could be wrong. The majority of our military handle the pressure without breaking the code of honor.
But that is just my take.

[chode_regulator]

dude you totally missed my point. thats what im saying. if you look, i say im sure ill get flamed for MY OPINION, but if you dont like the fact that i say what i want,GET THE FUCK OUT.

[JoeChalupa]

I don't think anybody is telling anyone to get the fuck out.

And I agree, that is a good show on A&E. Also watch Jarheads.

[chode_regulator]

I don't think anybody is telling anyone to get the fuck out.
oh jesus...never mind
youre just as closeminded as the rest

havent seen jarhead...not sure why

[chode_regulator]

I don't think anybody is telling anyone to get the fuck out.


actually now that i think about it, what are you talking about?

[JoeChalupa]

oh jesus...never mind
youre just as closeminded as the rest

havent seen jarhead...not sure why

I'm not Jesus and I'm as open minded as they come. Perhaps you are just not getting my point?

[chode_regulator]

probably not
:drunk

[JoeChalupa]

Maybe I FUBAR. :smokin

[chode_regulator]

no i def am...memorial weekend...got the next two days off
im pretty excited/ :drunk

[Nbadan]

From the original Time magazine article:


More than two months after the incident Time magazine asked the military to respond to allegations of the killings.

The magazine says a Marine spokesman responded with an e-mail stating, "I cannot believe you're buying any of this. This falls into the same category of Al-Qaeda in Iraq propaganda."

It was only after Time magazine showed a video in February to another military spokesman in Baghdad that an investigation was begun.

"Something broke down here in the sense that no investigation was conducted immediately," said Gen. Jack Keane. "Therefore, people most likely in the chain of command who had knowledge and should have taken action appropriately did not and they will be under investigation for the failure to do that.

[Nbadan]

What makes anyone who condones this type of behavior any different from those who would condone bombing crowded school buses and trains?


"in my last week's column, I highlighted the massacre of innocent men, women and children, carried out by up to a dozen Marines in the Iraqi town of Haditha. In it, I quoted Representative John Murtha, a highly decorated ex-Marine, who is distressed at the unprovoked attack.

---

"In the meantime, my column had been posted on a well-known right-wing American website (Free Republic), where it attracted 119 comments. Oddly, none of them displayed any hint of disquiet over the behaviour of the Marines under investigation. Rather, their outrage was reserved for John Murtha and yours truly. One poster's reaction was to "nuke the Middle East" adding "thank you very much Dishonourable Rep. Jack Murtha". He was later to write "if you can't stand behind our troops, stand in front of them"
---

If the public, as represented by the 119 posters on the Free Republic website, condones such behaviour or seeks to excuse it, then not only is its members giving their country's soldiers a license to kill arbitrarily, they are altering the fundamental psyche of their nation. To quote a well-known rationalist intellectual Felix Adler "Love of country is like love of women - he loves her best who seeks to bestow on her the highest good."

The "Freepers" - as members of the Free Republic website have come to be known - may also like to contemplate the words of theologian Howard Thurman who said "During times of war, hatred becomes quite respectable, even though it has to masquerade often under the guise of patriotism." In short, people who glorify soldiers who purposefully assassinate women and small children are as misguided as those who glorify the blowing up of crowded buses, trains and marketplaces."

Gulf News (http://www.gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/region/10043346.html)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

:tu

[xrayzebra]

And then you have this little jewel from the Korean war. Our most wonderful press
likes to keep bringing stuff up from 50 years ago. I wonder why?

washingtonpost.com




Letter on Korean War Massacre Reveals Plan to Shoot Refugees
Historian Discovers U.S. Envoy's Writings Relating to No Gun Ri

By Charles J. Hanley and Martha Mendoza
Associated Press
Tuesday, May 30, 2006; A04

More than a half-century after hostilities ended in Korea, a document from the war's chaotic early days has come to light -- a letter from the U.S. ambassador to Seoul, informing the State Department that U.S. soldiers would shoot refugees approaching their lines.

The letter -- dated the day of the Army's mass killing of South Korean refugees at No Gun Ri in 1950 -- is the strongest indication yet that such a policy existed for all U.S. forces in Korea, and the first evidence that that policy was known to upper ranks of the U.S. government.

"If refugees do appear from north of US lines they will receive warning shots, and if they then persist in advancing they will be shot," wrote Ambassador John J. Muccio, in his message to Assistant Secretary of State Dean Rusk.

The letter reported on decisions made at a high-level meeting in South Korea on July 25, 1950, the night before the 7th U.S. Cavalry Regiment shot the refugees at No Gun Ri.

Estimates vary on the number of dead at No Gun Ri. U.S. soldiers' estimates ranged from fewer than 100 to "hundreds" dead; Korean survivors say about 400, mostly women and children, were killed at the village 100 miles southeast of Seoul, the South Korean capital. Hundreds more refugees were killed in later, similar episodes, survivors say.

The No Gun Ri killings were documented in a Pulitzer Prize-winning story by the Associated Press in 1999, which prompted a 16-month Pentagon inquiry.

The Pentagon concluded that the No Gun Ri shootings, which lasted three days, were "an unfortunate tragedy" -- "not a deliberate killing." It suggested panicky soldiers, acting without orders, opened fire because they feared that an approaching line of families, baggage and farm animals concealed enemy troops.

But Muccio's letter indicates the actions of the 7th Cavalry were consistent with policy, adopted because of concern that North Koreans would infiltrate via refugee columns. And in subsequent months, U.S. commanders repeatedly ordered refugees shot, documents show.

The Muccio letter, declassified in 1982, is discussed in a new book by American historian Sahr Conway-Lanz, who discovered the document at the National Archives, where the AP also has obtained a copy.

Conway-Lanz, a former Harvard historian and now an archivist of the National Archives' Nixon collection, was awarded the Stuart L. Bernath Award of the Society for Historians of American Foreign Relations for the article on which the book is based.

"With this additional piece of evidence, the Pentagon report's interpretation [of No Gun Ri] becomes difficult to sustain," Conway-Lanz argues in his book, "Collateral Damage," published this spring by Routledge.

The Army report's own list of sources for the 1999-2001 investigation shows its researchers reviewed the microfilm containing the Muccio letter. But the 300-page report did not mention it.

Asked about this, Pentagon spokeswoman Betsy Weiner would say only that the Army inspector general's report was "an accurate and objective portrayal of the available facts based on 13 months of work."

Said Louis Caldera, who was Army secretary in 2001 and is now University of New Mexico president, "Millions of pages of files were reviewed, and it is certainly possible they may have simply missed it."

Former Washington Post diplomatic correspondent Don Oberdorfer, a historian of Korea who served on a team of outside experts who reviewed the investigation, said he did not recall seeing the Muccio message. "I don't know why, since the military claimed to have combed all records from any source."

Muccio noted in his 1950 letter that U.S. commanders feared disguised North Korean soldiers were infiltrating American lines via refugee columns.

As a result, those meeting on the night of July 25, 1950 -- top staff officers of the U.S. 8th Army, Muccio's representative Harold J. Noble and South Korean officials -- decided on a policy of air-dropping leaflets telling South Korean civilians not to head south toward U.S. defense lines and of shooting them if they did approach U.S. lines despite warning shots, the ambassador wrote to Rusk.

Rusk, Muccio and Noble, who was embassy first secretary, are all dead. It is not known what action, if any, Rusk and others in Washington may have taken as a result of the letter.

Muccio told Rusk, who was secretary of state during the Vietnam War, that he was writing him "in view of the possibility of repercussions in the United States" from such deadly U.S. tactics.

But the No Gun Ri killings -- as well as others in the ensuing months -- remained hidden from history until the AP report of 1999, in which soldiers who were at No Gun Ri corroborated the Korean survivors' accounts.

Survivors said U.S. soldiers first forced them from nearby villages on July 25, 1950, and then stopped them in front of U.S. lines the next day, when they were attacked without warning by aircraft as hundreds sat atop a railroad embankment. Troops of the 7th Cavalry followed with ground fire as survivors took shelter under a railroad bridge.

The late Army Col. Robert M. Carroll, a lieutenant at No Gun Ri, said in a 1998 interview that he remembered the order radioed across the warfront on the morning of July 26 to stop refugees from crossing battle lines. "What do you do when you're told nobody comes through? . . . We had to shoot them to hold them back."

Other soldier witnesses attested to radioed orders to open fire at No Gun Ri.

Since that episode was confirmed in 1999, South Koreans have lodged complaints with the Seoul government about more than 60 other alleged large-scale killings of refugees by the U.S. military in the 1950-53 war.

The Army report of 2001 acknowledged that investigators learned of other, unspecified civilian killings, but said these would not be investigated.

AP research uncovered at least 19 declassified U.S. military documents showing commanders ordered or authorized such killings in 1950-51.

In a statement issued Monday in Seoul, a No Gun Ri survivors group called that episode "a clear war crime," demanded an apology and compensation from the U.S. government, and said Congress and the United Nations should conduct investigations. The survivors also said they would file a lawsuit against the Pentagon for alleged manipulation of the earlier probe.

Gary Solis, a West Point expert on war crimes, said the policy described by Muccio clearly "deviates from typical wartime procedures. It's an obvious violation of the bedrock core principle of the law of armed conflict -- distinction."

Solis said soldiers always have the right to defend themselves. But "noncombatants are not to be purposely targeted."

But William Eckhardt, lead Army prosecutor in the My Lai atrocities case in Vietnam, sensed "angst, great angst" in the letter because officials worried about what might happen. "If a mob doesn't stop when they're coming at you, you fire over their heads. And if they still don't stop, you fire at them. Standard procedure," he said.
© 2006 The Washington Post Company
Ads by Google

[boutons_]

May 31, 2006

Investigation

Files Contradict Account of Raid in Iraq

By ERIC SCHMITT and DAVID S. CLOUD

WASHINGTON, May 30 — A military investigator uncovered evidence in February and March that contradicted repeated claims by marines that Iraqi civilians killed in Haditha last November were victims of a roadside bomb, according to a senior military official in Iraq.

Among the pieces of evidence that conflicted with the marines' story were death certificates that showed all the Iraqi victims had gunshot wounds, mostly to the head and chest, the official said.

The investigation, which was led by Col. Gregory Watt, an Army officer in Baghdad, also raised questions about whether the marines followed established rules for identifying hostile threats when they assaulted houses near the site of a bomb attack, which killed a fellow marine.

The three-week inquiry was the first official investigation into an episode that was first uncovered by Time magazine in January and that American military officials now say appears to have been an unprovoked attack by the marines that killed 24 Iraqi civilians. The results of Colonel Watt's investigation, which began on Feb. 14, have not previously been disclosed.

"There were enough inconsistencies that things didn't add up," said the senior official, who was briefed on the conclusions of Colonel Watt's preliminary investigation.

The official agreed to discuss the findings only after being promised anonymity. The findings have not been made public, and the Pentagon and the Marines have refused to discuss the details of inquiries now underway, saying that to do so could compromise the investigation.

When Colonel Watt described the findings to Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, the senior ground commander in Iraq, on March 9, they raised enough questions about the marines' veracity that General Chiarelli referred the matter to the senior Marine commander in Iraq, who ordered a criminal investigation that officials say could result in murder charges being brought against members of the unit.

Colonel Watt's findings also prompted General Chiarelli to order a parallel investigation into whether senior Marine officers and enlisted personnel had attempted to cover up what happened.

Colonel Watt's inquiry included interviews with marines believed to have been involved in the killings, as well as with senior officers in the unit, the Third Battalion of the First Marine Regiment.

Among them were Staff Sgt. Frank Wuterich, whom officials had said was one of the senior noncommissioned officers on the patrol, and Lt. Col. Jeffrey R. Chessani, the battalion commander, the senior official said. Colonel Chessani was relieved of his command in April, after the unit returned from Iraq.

In their accounts to Colonel Watt, the marines said they took gunfire from the first of five residences they entered near the bomb site, according to the senior military official.

The official said the marines had recalled hearing "a weapon being prepared to be used against them."

Colonel Watt also reviewed payments totaling $38,000 in cash made within weeks of the shootings to families of victims.

In an interview Tuesday, Maj. Dana Hyatt, the officer who made the payments, said he was told by superiors to compensate the relatives of 15 victims, but was told that rest of those killed had been deemed to have committed hostile acts, leaving their families ineligible for compensation.

After the initial payments were made, however, those families demanded similar payments, insisting their relatives had not attacked the marines, Major Hyatt said.

Major Hyatt said he was authorized by Colonel Chessani and more senior officers at the marines' regimental headquarters to make the payments to relatives of 15 victims.

Colonel Chessani "was part of the chain of command that gives the approval," Major Hyatt said.

"Even when he signs off on it," the major added, "it still has to go up to" the unit's regimental headquarters.

Colonel Chessani declined to comment on Tuesday when visited at his home at Camp Pendleton, Calif.

The list of 15 victims deemed to be noncombatants was put together by intelligence personnel attached to the battalion, Major Hyatt said. Those victims were related to a Haditha city council member, he said. The American military sometimes pays compensation to relatives of civilian victims.

The relatives of each victim were paid a total of $2,500, the maximum allowed under Marine rules, along with $250 payments for two children who were wounded. Major Hyatt said he also compensated the families for damage to two houses.

"I didn't say we had made a mistake," Major Hyatt said, describing what he had told the city council member who was representing the victims. "I said I'm being told I can make payments for these 15 because they were deemed not to be involved in combat."

The military began its examination of the killings only after Time magazine presented the full findings of its investigation to a military spokesman in Baghdad in early February.

(... this is exactly why the WH/Repugs want the US press muzzled and intimidated and imprisoned, why the WH/Repugs want increased maximum secrecy in govt operations, so the WH/Repugs can commit their crimes without having to deal with the press snooping around. With the Time investigation, the military would probably never have made their own invesigation public.

... is exactly why dickhead went after Joe Wilson who didn't go along with the WH lies "justifying" the Iraq invasion. )

General Chiarelli, an Army officer who took command of American ground forces in Iraq in January, learned soon after the spokesman was notified that the Marines had not investigated the incident, according to the senior military official.

On Tuesday, the White House spokesman, Tony Snow, said President Bush first became aware of the episode after the Time magazine inquiry, when he was briefed by Stephen Hadley, the national security adviser. "When this comes out, all the details will be made available to the public, so we'll have a picture of what happened," Mr. Snow said.

===============

The details may come out ONLY because of Time magazine, not because of some mythical Marine/military honor code.

[xrayzebra]

^^You know boutons, you more than likely have me on ignore, but
the military was investigating this before Time heard about it. And
the honor code is no myth. I now you support the troops, cause you
have said so. But please go crawl back under your rock. If we need
you, we will flush to toilet. Okay!

[Chief]

let's put away Politics aside for a second, let's put away wether or not it was cold murder or innocent mistakes.

There isn't more of a situation of Hell on Earth to see your dead loved ones. It feels as if your heart has been ripped out of your chest. As if your life is draining away inch by painful inch, that's just a small measure of what the victims of war must feel. Those of you with little cousins, little brothers, little sisters, grandchildren, young sons or daughters, imagine one night asleep, being woken up in the middle of it, having people storm into your house, FOR WHATEVER REASON, and shoot down those same little cousins, little brothers, little sisters, grandchildren, young sons or daughters, right in front of you.

All I ask , is that you put everything aside, and before you go to sleep tonight, Pray for those that are suffering around the world, no matter what race, religion, ethnicity. We should all share Humanity.

[boutons_]

One can't put the politics aside in the case for Iraq because the phony Iraq war was a purely Repug-political decision to assure victory in the 2004 prez election, for a string of illegit objectives, all supported by outright lies.

You're preaching "humanithy" to the wrong people.

I didn't start this war, nor did I vote for the people who did.

The suffering you cite is horrendous, and in the case of Iraq, 100% unnecessary and useless.

Impeach dubya/dickhead/condi/powell/wolfie/rummy.
The Band of Murderous Mothefuckers.

http://images.ucomics.com/comics/ta/2006/ta060601.gif

[JoeChalupa]

let's put away Politics aside for a second, let's put away wether or not it was cold murder or innocent mistakes.

There isn't more of a situation of Hell on Earth to see your dead loved ones. It feels as if your heart has been ripped out of your chest. As if your life is draining away inch by painful inch, that's just a small measure of what the victims of war must feel. Those of you with little cousins, little brothers, little sisters, grandchildren, young sons or daughters, imagine one night asleep, being woken up in the middle of it, having people storm into your house, FOR WHATEVER REASON, and shoot down those same little cousins, little brothers, little sisters, grandchildren, young sons or daughters, right in front of you.

All I ask , is that you put everything aside, and before you go to sleep tonight, Pray for those that are suffering around the world, no matter what race, religion, ethnicity. We should all share Humanity.

Excellent post. I concur.

[xrayzebra]

let's put away Politics aside for a second, let's put away wether or not it was cold murder or innocent mistakes.

There isn't more of a situation of Hell on Earth to see your dead loved ones. It feels as if your heart has been ripped out of your chest. As if your life is draining away inch by painful inch, that's just a small measure of what the victims of war must feel. Those of you with little cousins, little brothers, little sisters, grandchildren, young sons or daughters, imagine one night asleep, being woken up in the middle of it, having people storm into your house, FOR WHATEVER REASON, and shoot down those same little cousins, little brothers, little sisters, grandchildren, young sons or daughters, right in front of you.

All I ask , is that you put everything aside, and before you go to sleep tonight, Pray for those that are suffering around the world, no matter what race, religion, ethnicity. We should all share Humanity.

Well lets really put this in perspective. How bout when
you are walking down the street and someone blows up
the whole family. Or how bout when you place a tire
around someone neck, fill it with gasoline and ignite it.
Where the hell where you when things like that were
happening. You only feel compassion for the "innocent"
when our troops are involved. How bout feeling a little
compassion when the "innocents" are having the heads
chopped off or blown off. You sir, are a hypocrite.
And do you feel that way when Al Qaeda does this to the
little cousins, brothers, mothers and fathers. Or beats the
crap out of someone because they don't conform to their
religious standards. You have some very strange standards.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Well lets really put this in perspective. How bout when
you are walking down the street and someone blows up
the whole family. Or how bout when you place a tire
around someone neck, fill it with gasoline and ignite it.
Where the hell where you when things like that were
happening. You only feel compassion for the "innocent"
when our troops are involved. How bout feeling a little
compassion when the "innocents" are having the heads
chopped off or blown off. You sir, are a hypocrite.
And do you feel that way when Al Qaeda does this to the
little cousins, brothers, mothers and fathers. Or beats the
crap out of someone because they don't conform to their
religious standards. You have some very strange standards.
WTF?? you are the one with the fucked up standards. Nobody here is apologizing for the actions of terrorist, but that doesn't mean what those soldiers did is excusable! It seems to me you are still dwelling on this pro war vs anti war crap! this is not about that! a crime was commited and should be punished accordingly.

and what the hell do terrorist has to do with this scenario? these were innocent civilians, not terrorist, and you seem to want to excuse your soldiers for commiting as atrocious a deed as any terrorist. So who here is the one with the double standards?

[xrayzebra]

WTF?? you are the one with the fucked up standards. Nobody here is apologizing for the actions of terrorist, but that doesn't mean what those soldiers did is excusable! It seems to me you are still dwelling on this pro war vs anti war crap! this is not about that! a crime was commited and should be punished accordingly.

and what the hell do terrorist has to do with this scenario? these were innocent civilians, not terrorist, and you seem to want to excuse your soldiers for commiting as atrocious a deed as any terrorist. So who here is the one with the double standards?

I'll tell you what this has to do with it. First, a crime has been
alledged. It has not been proven. Second, I never hear
all the whaling and crying when innocents are killed
by the terrorist. Only when the military does something
that appears out of line. No you have your sense of
morality all screwed up. I want to hear you condemn the
other side when they blow the hell out of innocents walking
down the street shopping. When they blow the back of
someones head off because they are joining a police force.
Where he hell is you outrage, mister goody two shoes.
I have no double standards. But the one thing I do know
if someone did something wrong.......they will be punished
by our side, and punished severely. Possibly by death. I
ask you. Will the other side do the same? Hell no they
want. They will be praised, by some here on this forum.
So get off my butt and get a friggin life.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I'll tell you what this has to do with it. First, a crime has been
alledged. It has not been proven. Second, I never hear
all the whaling and crying when innocents are killed
by the terrorist. Only when the military does something
that appears out of line. No you have your sense of
morality all screwed up. I want to hear you condemn the
other side when they blow the hell out of innocents walking
down the street shopping. When they blow the back of
someones head off because they are joining a police force.
Where he hell is you outrage, mister goody two shoes.
I have no double standards. But the one thing I do know
if someone did something wrong.......they will be punished
by our side, and punished severely. Possibly by death. I
ask you. Will the other side do the same? Hell no they
want. They will be praised, by some here on this forum.
So get off my butt and get a friggin life.
would you stop making shit up! nobody here supports what terrorist do and you fucking know it! There is not one person here that wouldn't be outraged and dissgusted if American civilians were murdered by Iraqui soldiers. I was shoked and deeply disturbed when those americans were kidnapped and murdered by the Iraqui insurgents, I truly could not understand how people were capable of such cold blooded murder. Furthermore I resent you claiming that I would not be outraged by such a thing, you don't know shit about me and yet you're intent in spewing out BULLSHIT to prove your point, regardless of wether its true, or makes any sense.

It really seems that you are so caught up in your pro-Bush, anti liberal crusade that you will say any fucking thing without giving it another thought, correction, without ANY thought.

By the way, who is this "other side" you're talking about?? All Iraquis? terrorists?? who?? Seems to me YOU really can't tell the difference. Just a thought you might want to take into account, these people were INNOCENT CIVILIANS, not terrorists. These are not the people you hold so much contempt for... or are they now? I have a feeling you wouldn't lose a night's sleep if Iraq and all its people were blown off the map, would you?

[clambake]

Do you think this didn't happen? Are you saying it is impossible? Didn't you expect something like this to happen? Are you that far to the right? Your leader has already said "Mission accomplished".

[xrayzebra]

would you stop making shit up! nobody here supports what terrorist do and you fucking know it! There is not one person here that wouldn't be outraged and dissgusted if American civilians were murdered by Iraqui soldiers. I was shoked and deeply disturbed when those americans were kidnapped and murdered by the Iraqui insurgents, I truly could not understand how people were capable of such cold blooded murder. Furthermore I resent you claiming that I would not be outraged by such a thing, you don't know shit about me and yet you're intent in spewing out BULLSHIT to prove your point, regardless of wether its true, or makes any sense.

It really seems that you are so caught up in your pro-Bush, anti liberal crusade that you will say any fucking thing without giving it another thought, correction, without ANY thought.

By the way, who is this "other side" you're talking about?? All Iraquis? terrorists?? who?? Seems to me YOU really can't tell the difference. Just a thought you might want to take into account, these people were INNOCENT CIVILIANS, not terrorists. These are not the people you hold so much contempt for... or are they now? I have a feeling you wouldn't lose a night's sleep if Iraq and all its people were blown off the map, would you?

Mister, you are the one that made the accusations. Not me.
You are the one that said our troops were guilty before
the investigation has been completed. I never heard from
you before about anyone being beheaded. And how do
you know they were INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Haven't they
used women and children to carry their bombs? How bout
we wait until the results of the investigation are completed.
We damn sure know one thing, don't we, those that are
guilty of any crime will be punished. Now we do know that
don't we. Who the hell started the investigation, damn
sure wasn't Time magazine or some other damn media
group. It was the military themselves and our government.
I am just sick and tired of everyone wanting to jump on
our troops ass about something that may or not be true.
If it is true, someone will pay and everyone damn sure
knows that. You are most of the time willing to trash
our government and troops. Well I am not. I wont
protect the guilty but I am damn sure going to sure they
are guilty. And I don't hear all of you holy than thou types
putting anything on the site about those mean old
terrorist killed another 30 civilians today. Now do you.

[xrayzebra]

Do you think this didn't happen? Are you saying it is impossible? Didn't you expect something like this to happen? Are you that far to the right? Your leader has already said "Mission accomplished".


I am saying nothing has been proven one way or the other.
But you are saying it has been alleged so it must be true.
It could happen. I never expect nor do I hope anything can happen that
will put this country, our fighting personnel or even you in a
bad light. Things do happen, but I will tell you one damn
thing, until you have been placed in a situation where you
are being shot at and have the fear and apprehension that
they are facing don't you be so damn quick to judge. You
have no idea how you would respond or react.

One other thing. I have no leader. I have a President that
was duly elected. He is President until such time as THE
PEOPLE of this country elect a new President. Unfortunately
there are some like you that have politics so far out in
left field that you cant see the forest for the trees. You
may have a leader, but I don't. I am quite capable of
thinking for myself and making my own decisions.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Mister, you are the one that made the accusations. Not me.
You are the one that said our troops were guilty before
the investigation has been completed. I never heard from
you before about anyone being beheaded. And how do
you know they were INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Haven't they
used women and children to carry their bombs? How bout
we wait until the results of the investigation are completed.
We damn sure know one thing, don't we, those that are
guilty of any crime will be punished. Now we do know that
don't we. Who the hell started the investigation, damn
sure wasn't Time magazine or some other damn media
group. It was the military themselves and our government.
I am just sick and tired of everyone wanting to jump on
our troops ass about something that may or not be true.
If it is true, someone will pay and everyone damn sure
knows that. You are most of the time willing to trash
our government and troops. Well I am not. I wont
protect the guilty but I am damn sure going to sure they
are guilty. And I don't hear all of you holy than thou types
putting anything on the site about those mean old
terrorist killed another 30 civilians today. Now do you.
damn, its like talking to a wall... It doesn't matter who started the investigation, and this isn't about the military! This is about those few soldiers that commited this crime. I don't care if Time magazine or the Pentagon performed the investigation! http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

and again WHO THE FUCK IS TRASHING YOUR TROOPS!!?? Granted people in this forum criticise Bush's government, and I for one think he is doing a lousy job at it, but that has nothing to do with this case, and this is certainly not a knock on "your troops".

oh and by the way, the reason I'm not in here complaining about the people killed by terrorism is because it has become something I've come to expect from people like that. Would you rather I hold your American troops to those same standards as I do terrorists?

[JoeChalupa]

I run into the "if you don't support Bush and the war you are with the terrorists" bullshit all the time. I hate terrorism with a passion and realize it must be dealt with but call it what it is and don't use WMD or some other bullshit reason to fight it.
I hate it when I hear about another terrorists attack and the innocent victims that are slaughtered.
But I will not excuse my fellow Marines for crimes (alledgedly) committed during war but we need to know ALL the facts.
I think the initial cover up, if indeed it was a cover up, makes things look worse. Just like the Pat Tillman issue when the military tries to change the facts of what really happened it almost always comes back to bite them in the ass.
Semper Fi! I support our troops 1000%. A few bad men should not tarnish the reputation of the finest fighting men and women in the world.

[Burly_Man]

Mister, you are the one that made the accusations. Not me.
You are the one that said our troops were guilty before
the investigation has been completed. I never heard from
you before about anyone being beheaded. And how do
you know they were INNOCENT CIVILIANS. Haven't they
used women and children to carry their bombs? How bout
we wait until the results of the investigation are completed.
We damn sure know one thing, don't we, those that are
guilty of any crime will be punished. Now we do know that
don't we. Who the hell started the investigation, damn
sure wasn't Time magazine or some other damn media
group. It was the military themselves and our government.
I am just sick and tired of everyone wanting to jump on
our troops ass about something that may or not be true.
If it is true, someone will pay and everyone damn sure
knows that. You are most of the time willing to trash
our government and troops. Well I am not. I wont
protect the guilty but I am damn sure going to sure they
are guilty. And I don't hear all of you holy than thou types
putting anything on the site about those mean old
terrorist killed another 30 civilians today. Now do you.

It's not the crime, it's the coverup.

From Reuters:

Defense officials previously have said a preliminary military probe conducted in February and March found evidence that the Marines involved in the incident gave a false account of what happened.

The initial military statement on the incident said 15 civilians were killed in the explosion of a roadside bomb that also claimed the life of Marine Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas. But the preliminary investigation included forensic data showing the civilians died from bullet wounds.

The defense official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Bargewell was looking at whether higher ranking officers looked aggressively enough into what actually happened in Haditha. The official said any incident in which a U.S. Marine is killed normally "gets looked at pretty carefully."

[xrayzebra]

I run into the "if you don't support Bush and the war you are with the terrorists" bullshit all the time. I hate terrorism with a passion and realize it must be dealt with but call it what it is and don't use WMD or some other bullshit reason to fight it.
I hate it when I hear about another terrorists attack and the innocent victims that are slaughtered.
But I will not excuse my fellow Marines for crimes (alledgedly) committed during war but we need to know ALL the facts.
I think the initial cover up, if indeed it was a cover up, makes things look worse. Just like the Pat Tillman issue when the military tries to change the facts of what really happened it almost always comes back to bite them in the ass.
Semper Fi! I support our troops 1000%. A few bad men should not tarnish the reputation of the finest fighting men and women in the world.

I agree. A few bad men will not tarnish the reputation of the
finest fighting men and women in the world. The military
is made up of our society. There are people in there that
do bad things. But I would just hope that everyone hangs
fire until the facts are known. The solace is that we know
justice will be done if someone has committed a crime.
And terrible crime it will be if innocent people were killed,
be they men, women or children.

I have no desire to rehash the WMD crap any more. We
are in the war, right, wrong or indifferent. In my opinion
it is one we didn't really ask for. And I repeat in my
opinion. We were attacked and had many killed by the
same terrorist we are fighting now. And again I don't ask
anyone to agree with me. But again I don't have to agree
with you either if you disagree with me. But anyhow. I
guess I have made my point several times over....

[xrayzebra]

It's not the crime, it's the coverup.

From Reuters:

Defense officials previously have said a preliminary military probe conducted in February and March found evidence that the Marines involved in the incident gave a false account of what happened.

The initial military statement on the incident said 15 civilians were killed in the explosion of a roadside bomb that also claimed the life of Marine Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas. But the preliminary investigation included forensic data showing the civilians died from bullet wounds.

The defense official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said Bargewell was looking at whether higher ranking officers looked aggressively enough into what actually happened in Haditha. The official said any incident in which a U.S. Marine is killed normally "gets looked at pretty carefully."


What coverup, by the initial report or by our government?
Someone does a bad thing, they lie. Our military found
the lie and started a complete investigation. Is that a
coverup? Don't confuse lying with coverup. Most people
consider "coverup" something government does to
coverup a misdeed. They didn't. The people on the scene
may have screwed up badly and lied to protect their butt.
But obviously someone within the chain of command didn't
buy the story. Or just maybe someone who witnessed the
deed reported them, just as it should have been reported.

[ChumpDumper]

What a fucking mess.

[Nbadan]

What coverup, by the initial report or by our government?
Someone does a bad thing, they lie. Our military found
the lie and started a complete investigation. Is that a
coverup? Don't confuse lying with coverup. Most people
consider "coverup" something government does to
coverup a misdeed. They didn't. The people on the scene
may have screwed up badly and lied to protect their butt.
But obviously someone within the chain of command didn't
buy the story. Or just maybe someone who witnessed the
deed reported them, just as it should have been reported.

Let's be honest, the Marines didn't start a serious investigation until after TIME mag showed them the story that they were about to run about the incident in Haditha. According to sources, there were many Army brass there the day after the incident happened investigating the shootings. Put one and one together and you get a cover-up. It's really not that complicated.

[velik_m]

I'll tell you what this has to do with it. First, a crime has been
alledged. It has not been proven. Second, I never hear
all the whaling and crying when innocents are killed
by the terrorist. Only when the military does something
that appears out of line. No you have your sense of
morality all screwed up. I want to hear you condemn the
other side when they blow the hell out of innocents walking
down the street shopping. When they blow the back of
someones head off because they are joining a police force.
Where he hell is you outrage, mister goody two shoes.
I have no double standards. But the one thing I do know
if someone did something wrong.......they will be punished
by our side, and punished severely. Possibly by death. I
ask you. Will the other side do the same? Hell no they
want. They will be praised, by some here on this forum.
So get off my butt and get a friggin life.

On second:
Double standard? yes, but terrorist didn't swear to follow the laws, soldiers have. It similar when a policeman breaks the law - it's much worse if the ones that should be protecting and enforcing the laws are the ones that break them.
we already know terrorist are scumbags, i would like to think US army is better than that.

[chode_regulator]

;)

damn straight motherfucker

to be honest, its a fucked up situation. no one here knows what happens. no one knows why it happened. all i know is its easy as shit for you people to sit back and speculate and question why marines/soldiers do shit and arm chair quarterback their actions.

to the person who posted the question about what if it was your friend/cousin/brother who got killed in the house. well what if it was your friend/cousin/brother/fellow marine who got killed by a roadside bomb fighting for a country you dont give a shit about and are trying to protect, and they try to kill you? what then? do you think you dont feel the same heart ripping feeling? theres several people in my squadron who have been shot down and also a couple who have landed and gone to save those who got shot down. in my profession, though in some ways not as dangerous as grunts, in others is more so. i dont know what i would do/will do when the first person i know dies in a crash bc some raghead shot down the helicopter that was trying to bring supplies to some random outpost iraqi city to try and bring help/relief. its a fucked up situation for all involved.
was it wrong yes. should we hold ourselved to higher standards, yes? but how come yall arent on here bithcing and comlaining everytime you read about a murder that someon commited in the heat of the moment? why is war different?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

;)

damn straight motherfucker

to be honest, its a fucked up situation. no one here knows what happens. no one knows why it happened. all i know is its easy as shit for you people to sit back and speculate and question why marines/soldiers do shit and arm chair quarterback their actions.

to the person who posted the question about what if it was your friend/cousin/brother who got killed in the house. well what if it was your friend/cousin/brother/fellow marine who got killed by a roadside bomb fighting for a country you dont give a shit about and are trying to protect, and they try to kill you? what then? do you think you dont feel the same heart ripping feeling? theres several people in my squadron who have been shot down and also a couple who have landed and gone to save those who got shot down. in my profession, though in some ways not as dangerous as grunts, in others is more so. i dont know what i would do/will do when the first person i know dies in a crash bc some raghead shot down the helicopter that was trying to bring supplies to some random outpost iraqi city to try and bring help/relief. its a fucked up situation for all involved.
was it wrong yes. should we hold ourselved to higher standards, yes? but how come yall arent on here bithcing and comlaining everytime you read about a murder that someon commited in the heat of the moment? why is war different?
this is supposedly the senseless murder of 24 people! I seriously don't get where you're coming from. Your argument is a double edge sword buddy. Its true, people aren't in here complaining about every day murders, however, you wouldn't be defending an average every day murder either would you? The only reason you're advocating for these people is because they are american marines. I think that is bullshit.

Its all good and well to wait for the results of the investigation, but to try and make sense out of such a thing... to try and lessen its severity and importance by compairing it to everyday crimes... thats just stupid.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

manumania

they are not soldiers they are marines
http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif there changed it

[chode_regulator]

thats just stupid.
youre stupid


but seriously, im nto trying to downplay it. but just bc its war makes it different from a normal crime? who gets to make that decision?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

youre stupid


but seriously, im nto trying to downplay it. but just bc its war makes it different from a normal crime? who gets to make that decision?
its stupid to compare to a normal crime because ITS NOT A NORMAL CRIME!! its the slaughter of 24 innocent civilians! why is it so hard for you to understand that? or is it that you don't want to understand?

[Nbadan]

Great take elpimpo. The relatives of the slain Iraqis agree with you, and are asking for blood for blood. $2500/victim was not enough to make this problem go away...


A lawyer who had several relatives among 24 Iraqis allegedly slain by U.S. Marines last fall and is representing kin of other victims complained in a videotape Saturday that American compensation paid to the families was inadequate.
Khaled Salem Rsayef also said U.S. officers accused him and other relatives of lying when they recounted the shootings in their first meeting with the military after the Nov. 19 deaths in the western town of Haditha. He did not say when they met.

In interviews taped Friday by an AP Television News cameraman, 9-year-old survivor Iman Walid Abdul-Hameed demanded that those responsible be executed. "Because they hurt us, we want the Americans to be executed," Iman said, wearing a violet-colored striped shirt, matching pants and headband while sitting on a couch at a relative's home. She was reluctant to speak at first, but was eventually persuaded by her relatives.

The girl lost her parents, a brother, grandparents and two uncles in the incident. Another brother, Abdul-Rahman, who was 6 at the time, and a sister, Asia, who was 5 months old, survived. Iman and Abdul-Rahman were slightly
injured. "We did not do anything to them," Iman said of the Marines who allegedly killed unarmed civilians after becoming enraged when a comrade died in a roadside bombing.

Despite blaming insurgents for the killings, the U.S. military gave the families $2,500 for each person killed in the incident about a month later, except for four brothers, all of fighting age, he said. "When I received the compensation money, I found out that it was $2,500 for each victim," Rsayef said. "I told them that it's a small sum that does not match the magnitude of the disaster." He noted that Libya's government paid millions of dollars in compensation to the families of the Lockerbie airline bombing victims. "Is American blood worth more than Iraqi blood?" he asked.

AP (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_HADITHA?SITE=1010WINS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Great take elpimpo. The relatives of the slain Iraqis agree with you, and are asking for blood for blood. $2500/victim was not enough to make this problem go away...


A lawyer who had several relatives among 24 Iraqis allegedly slain by U.S. Marines last fall and is representing kin of other victims complained in a videotape Saturday that American compensation paid to the families was inadequate.
Khaled Salem Rsayef also said U.S. officers accused him and other relatives of lying when they recounted the shootings in their first meeting with the military after the Nov. 19 deaths in the western town of Haditha. He did not say when they met.

In interviews taped Friday by an AP Television News cameraman, 9-year-old survivor Iman Walid Abdul-Hameed demanded that those responsible be executed. "Because they hurt us, we want the Americans to be executed," Iman said, wearing a violet-colored striped shirt, matching pants and headband while sitting on a couch at a relative's home. She was reluctant to speak at first, but was eventually persuaded by her relatives.

The girl lost her parents, a brother, grandparents and two uncles in the incident. Another brother, Abdul-Rahman, who was 6 at the time, and a sister, Asia, who was 5 months old, survived. Iman and Abdul-Rahman were slightly
injured. "We did not do anything to them," Iman said of the Marines who allegedly killed unarmed civilians after becoming enraged when a comrade died in a roadside bombing.

Despite blaming insurgents for the killings, the U.S. military gave the families $2,500 for each person killed in the incident about a month later, except for four brothers, all of fighting age, he said. "When I received the compensation money, I found out that it was $2,500 for each victim," Rsayef said. "I told them that it's a small sum that does not match the magnitude of the disaster." He noted that Libya's government paid millions of dollars in compensation to the families of the Lockerbie airline bombing victims. "Is American blood worth more than Iraqi blood?" he asked.
AP (http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/I/IRAQ_HADITHA?SITE=1010WINS&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT)
WTF!! fuck them! this isn't supposed to be about money! sounds to me like they are more interested in getting paid than seeing justice be done.

[jochhejaam]

Here's a good take from Jack Kelly, columnist for my Toledo Blade and the Pittsburg Gazette.

Smearing our troops


JESSE Macbeth, a self-styled "special forces ranger," regaled liberal moonbat audiences with tales of the atrocities he committed in Iraq:

"Fallujah is where we slaughtered people in mosques," he said. "We would dig holes and leave mass graves of children, women, and old men."

Unfortunately for Mr. Macbeth, he made a video that was seen by actual veterans. In it, he is wearing his beret improperly ("like a pastry chef," said an Army spokesman). He's wearing a Ranger beret, but it has a Special Forces flash. The sleeves on his military jacket are rolled up the way the Marines do it; not the Army.

In short, Mr. Macbeth was a fraud so obvious even the moonbats should have seen through him, but they didn't because they wanted so badly to believe the terrible things he was saying about U.S. forces in Iraq.

In every war America has ever fought, a few soldiers have committed war crimes. In no war has their behavior been representative of our soldiers as a whole, or been sanctioned at high levels. But the moonbats think smearing our servicemen and women discredits the war effort.

To his everlasting shame, Rep. John Murtha, a Democrat from Pennsylvania and a retired Marine reserve colonel, is playing to the same crowd. He's accused Marines of having committed "cold-blooded murder," and their superiors of covering it up.

"It goes right up the chain of command right up to General [Peter] Pace [chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff]," Mr. Murtha said on ABC's This Week program last Sunday.

Something horrible did happen in Haditha on the morning of Nov. 19, 2005. A powerful roadside bomb destroyed a Marine Humvee, killing Lance Cpl. Miguel Terrazas, 20, and injuring two other Marines.

The incident report filed by Corporal Terrazas' unit said the bomb was accompanied by small arms fire, which the Marines returned, killing eight insurgents and wounding another. The report said 15 Iraqi civilians were killed in the blast.

That wasn't true. Autopsies indicated the 15 civilians - four of them women and four of them children - had all suffered gunshot wounds.

The civilians were killed inside two houses near the blast site. An Iraqi journalism student videotaped the bodies in the morgue and the scene in the two houses. It was shown to reporters for Time in Baghdad.

Time gave a copy of the tape to a military spokesman in January, triggering an investigation which is now nearing completion.

Residents of Haditha told Time they were pleased with the thoroughness of the investigation.

"They asked detailed questions, examined each bullet hole and burn mark," a relative of the victims told Time's Aparism Ghosh. "It was a very professional investigation."

Criminal charges are likely to be filed against the 13 Marines in the squad involved in the shootings.

But in our system, it is customary to hear the evidence before rendering a verdict. The Marines have yet to be charged, let alone convicted.

"Cold-blooded" implies emotionless premeditation. From what little we know of the case, it seems the Marines were guilty of a hot-blooded over-reaction. Perhaps some Marines committed murder. But perhaps it was manslaughter, or criminally negligent homicide.

And maybe they're innocent. Haditha's a hotbed of insurgent activity. Perhaps the Marines were receiving fire from the houses, as they claimed.

If the Marines under suspicion are found guilty of murder or manslaughter, they should be punished severely. But they deserve the presumption of innocence until then.

Mr. Murtha's accusation of a cover-up clearly is false. The Marines under investigation apparently lied in their report of the incident, but as soon as their superiors were made aware of the discrepancies in their story, they ordered an investigation which the Iraqis say is thorough, and which is about to result in criminal charges.

But if there is no cover up, it is harder to turn the incident into a broad indictment of U.S. policy in Iraq.

News media that haven't reported much on the heroism of U.S. troops in Iraq have been playing this incident up, as they did the appalling conduct of a few guards at Abu Ghraib prison.

The incident routinely is described as a "massacre," a term journalists don't use when insurgents bomb a mosque or a marketplace. <what a surprise>!!
Smearing our troops gives our enemies a propaganda victory. But whatever happened at Haditha on Nov. 19, 2005, has nothing to do with the wisdom or justness (or the lack of it) of the war in Iraq.

Jack Kelly is a member of The Blade’s national bureau. http://toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060603/COLUMNIST14/606030333/-1/COLUMNIST

[JoeChalupa]

The Toledo-Blade rocks!! Good article.

But Murtha has my respect even though I don't agree with everything he says.

[xrayzebra]

Murtha is a politician, just like McCain. Both have lost any credibility with me.
They served, have been rewarded, but to start some of the crap they have,
forget it.

[JoeChalupa]

I'd follow either man into battle any day of the week.

[chode_regulator]

If the Marines under suspicion are found guilty of murder or manslaughter, they should be punished severely. But they deserve the presumption of innocence until then.

well said. everyone here is quick to judge these marines off of what a few foreigners have said. regardless of any evidence they have against these marines, even the most obscene crimes commited in the u.s. the criminal gets the tag line "alleged" before a description, yet these marines are automatically guilty.




News media that haven't reported much on the heroism of U.S. troops in Iraq have been playing this incident up, as they did the appalling conduct of a few guards at Abu Ghraib prison.
again true. good news doesnt sell. only negative.



The incident routinely is described as a "massacre," a term journalists don't use when insurgents bomb a mosque or a marketplace. <what a surprise>!!
again, the media picks and chooses what it wants to reports on.



its stupid to compare to a normal crime because ITS NOT A NORMAL CRIME!! its the slaughter of 24 innocent civilians! why is it so hard for you to understand that? or is it that you don't want to understand?
so punishment should be worse bc it wasnt civilians killing civilians? it wasnt gang related? or a car bombing? or someone randomly shooting people at gas stations? or kids walking into school loaded with guns? those are somehow better? or they should automatically be guilty bc of the same reasons?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

so punishment should be worse bc it wasnt civilians killing civilians? it wasnt gang related? or a car bombing? or someone randomly shooting people at gas stations? or kids walking into school loaded with guns? those are somehow better? or they should automatically be guilty bc of the same reasons?
WTF?? who said anything about punishment being more severe? you're the one downplaying the whole thing like it was no big deal 24 civilans were murdered. All those crimes you are talking about are NOT normal crimes, and I NEVER said one was worse than another. If a guy kills 24 people in the US in cold blood, what do you think the sentence would be?? I'm advocating the same punishment they would get if they did this in the States and the victims were American, but seems like you think its a lesser crime because they are American soldiers and the victims are foreigners.

[chode_regulator]

ill be thinking of your semantics and idiosyncracies manumania as im haning off the tail gun out the ramp


btw im not downplaying it, just saying everyone here has already judged, convicted and sentenced these marines. calling for blood barely even a couple weeks after this story really blew up. its ridiculous.
im not saying that if they killedthose peple its not wrong, just wondering why is it more wrong?

[velik_m]

ill be thinking of your semantics and idiosyncracies manumania as im haning off the tail gun out the ramp


btw im not downplaying it, just saying everyone here has already judged, convicted and sentenced these marines. calling for blood barely even a couple weeks after this story really blew up. its ridiculous.
im not saying that if they killedthose peple its not wrong, just wondering why is it more wrong?


Double standard? yes, but terrorist didn't swear to follow the laws, soldiers have. It similar when a policeman breaks the law - it's much worse if the ones that should be protecting and enforcing the laws are the ones that break them.

we already know terrorist are scumbags, i would like to think US army is better than that.

[xrayzebra]

WTF?? who said anything about punishment being more severe? you're the one downplaying the whole thing like it was no big deal 24 civilans were murdered. All those crimes you are talking about are NOT normal crimes, and I NEVER said one was worse than another. If a guy kills 24 people in the US in cold blood, what do you think the sentence would be?? I'm advocating the same punishment they would get if they did this in the States and the victims were American, but seems like you think its a lesser crime because they are American soldiers and the victims are foreigners.


How many times can you execute a guilty person? Once should do it. Oh,
I guess you could do like them, after hanging, shooting or whatever, drag
them through the street, burn the corpse and display it from a bridge. For
what purpose I don't know. But people who say punishment should be more
severe. Dead is dead.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

How many times can you execute a guilty person? Once should do it. Oh,
I guess you could do like them, after hanging, shooting or whatever, drag
them through the street, burn the corpse and display it from a bridge. For
what purpose I don't know. But people who say punishment should be more
severe. Dead is dead.
are you addressing me? 'cause if you are, your post makes no sense