Ludden: Spurs fans finally get long look at Barry

[Kori Ellis]

Spurs fans finally get long look at Barry
Web Posted: 10/11/2004 12:00 AM CDT

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/stories/MYSA101104.1C.BKNspurs.108fed7a5.html

Johnny Ludden
Express-News Staff Writer

With their first exhibition game still six days away, the Spurs welcomed the opportunity to scrimmage each other Sunday afternoon.

They were even more happy when a few thousand fans showed up at the SBC Center to watch.

"It was nice," guard Brent Barry said, "to hear somebody yelling in a gym besides Pop."

Barry gave the crowd plenty of reason to cheer. He made five 3-pointers during the hour-long open scrimmage, showing off the range and quick release that led the Spurs to sign him in July.

"He's a quick study and understands what we're trying to do," coach Gregg Popovich said. "He'll have to form some new habits defensively, but he's such a team player and so skilled at the offensive end that the motion and movement we're using is going to just fit him perfectly.

"He's going to make the rest of us better because he's so skilled."

After taking Saturday off, the Spurs were glad to go through their first extended five-on-five scrimmage of training camp. While most teams begin their preseason schedule early this week, the Spurs won't play their first exhibition game until Sunday in New York.

The Spurs blocked off the first two weeks of the preseason because the NBA was considering sending them to Moscow to play Utah. Those plans were scrapped after it was determined the security costs for two teams would have been too great. League officials later ended up canceling the Jazz' trip altogether because of security concerns.

As a result, the Spurs will play seven exhibition games this season instead of their usual eight.

"We've been focusing on the things we think are important for down the road rather than concerning our ourselves with having things in for the first preseason game," Popovich said. "We've been a lot more basic this year and a lot more fundamental than we ever have been, actually.

"I'm sure the guys were happy to get out of drill mode and go at each other on the court."

Popovich pitted his projected starters (Tony Parker, Manu Ginobili, Bruce Bowen, Tim Duncan and Rasho Nesterovic) against the Spurs' possible second unit (Barry, Beno Udrih, Devin Brown, Malik Rose and Sean Marks) with the other reserves split among the two squads. The teams split the first two halves before Duncan opened the six-minute overtime period with a pair of dunks and a turnaround jumper that lifted the starters to a one-point victory.

Linton Johnson III, still bothered by a left ankle injury he suffered before the start of training camp, was the only player who did not scrimmage. He probably will undergo tests on his ankle today, Popovich said.

"He's not doing very well," Popovich said. "He's recovering very slow. He's worked very hard to get back on the court, but we may have to consider sitting him for a long period of time."

Barry, meanwhile, doesn't appear to have had much trouble getting acclimated to his new team.

"I've played nine years in the NBA, so I kind of know some things that are going to work — just maybe necessarily not against the Spurs," he said. "But I do feel comfortable. Tim and Manu are taking some time to make sure their bodies are OK, but when we get in the preseason and have a chance to play together with some other combinations on the floor, that's when I'll really get excited."

In addition to his 3-point shooting, Barry also showed he still has some spring in his legs, throwing down a reverse dunk.

"I hope somebody took a picture of that," said Barry, who won the 1996 All-Star dunk contest at the Alamodome. "I'll get a few this year, but it won't be many. It will be less than Tim, but more than Tony."

Notebook: The Spurs ended the week without making any progress on a contract extension for Parker. The two sides are not close on a deal, and team officials had told Parker's agent, Marc Fleisher, they wanted talks completed by Sunday.

Though teams have until Oct. 31 to extend rookie contracts, Popovich said last week he does not want negotiations to distract from training camp. If his contract is not extended, Parker will be a restricted free agent at the end of the season. Despite the passing of the team's deadline, Fleisher said Sunday he hasn't completely given up hope that negotiations may resume.

Said Fleisher: "I never say never."

[Kori Ellis]

He made five 3-pointers during the hour-long open scrimmage

By my tally, he made four 3-pointers and three 2-pointers for 18 points total on the day. But there was no real scorekeeper, so who knows.

I knew Barry was going to be a good shooter, but he has a lot more than that to offer the Spurs. He made a lot of great passes. He ran the floor well. Had a couple dunks. And he carries himself with a lot of confidence.

I still miss Stephen Jackson. But I think Barry is going to be a very, very nice pickup for the Spurs.

[timvp]

Barry might shoot 70% from the three-point line this year. If he can can be automatic in Seattle, imagine with the Spurs.






P.S.

Hopefully the playoffs too.

[Kaster]

Barry was such a stellar pickup for the Spurs. I was pissed when the Spurs (instead of the Lakers) signed him, I knew the title was in the bag after that.

Basically, the only thing the Spurs need to worry about is his defense. He's 34 and has never been more than an average defender (actually, he was pretty good in his prime). But he's long and athletic, so he'll be just fine me thinks.

[TheWriter]

He doesn't need to be Bruce on D, not when you have Bruce and not to mention Duncan and Rasho in the paint swatting ball after ball.

Team defense is the key with Brent and I don't see him having a problem with that.

[xcoriate]

I heard from a sonics fan that he an average 1 on 1 defender, but a good help and team defender. So thats something. He should be compateable to parker in terms of D.

[whottt]

I read a post by a Sonics Fan that alleviated any doubts I have about Barry's D or his clutchness. He's going to be fine, excellent in others, and should challenge for 6thman of the year.

[picnroll]

I think Barry may be this years Sam Cassell, a vet who finally gets on a good team, gets a chance and some notice and ends up with an all-star berth. Gonna be a fun year.

[xcoriate]

Probably same post whottt

[exstatic]

xcoriate sez:

I heard from a sonics fan that he an average 1 on 1 defender, but a good help and team defender. So thats something. He should be compateable to parker in terms of D.

whottt sez:

I read a post by a Sonics Fan that alleviated any doubts I have about Barry's D or his clutchness. He's going to be fine, excellent in others, and should challenge for 6thman of the year.


Imagine that. whottt in love with an Aussie guard. :lmao It is a perfect alternative handle, though.

BTW, whottt, you can delete a post on edit. There is a radio button for it.

[Ginofan]

I was really impressed with Barry and how he performed in the scrimmage. He looks to be exactly what we needed. He's got his shot of course, but also his speed and court vision are huge. This has to be one of the best signings the Spurs have ever done.

[xcoriate]

Aussie guard

Ok I'll bite. :)

I'm going to assume the fore mentioned is Shane Heal, then I'm going to ask what he has to do with Brent Barry?

[Kori Ellis]

Basically, the only thing the Spurs need to worry about is his defense. He's 34 and has never been more than an average defender

Just for the record. Barry is 32.

[whottt]

xcoriate, don't drag excstatic out of his fantasy world, he's more entertaining this way.

Let him think he's clever...it's essential to his ID that he feel he's smart. Though as you can see from that post, sadly, he is a total idiot.

BTW, did you read the post by the Sonics fan that I did? At SR? Was a very well written post. I wanted to repost it here but lost track of it.

[ChumpDumper]

Barry was the best thing about the scrimmage by far. He looks completely excited about being a Spur. He could be a catalyst for big things this season.

[timvp]

I've had Barry down for about 24 minutes per game but after watching how much better he made the rest of the team, that might have to be raised to 28-30 minutes. You don't want to be tired for the playoffs but he might be a player that will be hard to keep off the court.

How many minutes per game would you play him?

[T Park]

28 regular season.

32 playoffs.

minutes taken away from Bowen of course.

[ChumpDumper]

April of last season was one of his best months statistically after playing 30mpg all year, so I'm not all that concerned about overplaying him.

Of course, he was out all February....

[timvp]

Bowen 27
Ginobili 30
Parker 34
Barry 28
Brown 15

I think those minutes would work out pretty well. If you can hold Ginobili's minutes around 30, that would keep him fresh for the playoffs. The only problem is that includes Barry running the backup point. If Beno breaks into the rotation, that is another 10-12 minutes you have to account for.

[ChumpDumper]

I think minutes could vary wildy according to matchups early -- especially if we're going against some tall swingmen. It's going to be interesting to see how the rotation finally settles.

[picnroll]

Unless Beno pulls a Charlie Ward and busts I can't see him not getting minutes. Spurs need to see what they have and have to have him gain some experience if for no other reason than protection should Parker go down.

[Marcus Bryant]

If Udrih's skills are as good as advertised then I think he breaks in during the season. His style of play would seem to fit in with that of Parker, Ginobili, and Barry. But I don't see Pop going with a 6 man perimeter rotation.

Maybe this is the season that Bowen's minutes go down drastically, more than just 5 minutes per game.

[timvp]

The Spurs are going to be stacked in the backcourt (I think that is the first time that has ever been said about a Spurs team :) ).

There is Bowen, Ginobili, Parker, Barry, Udrih and Brown. Then the coaching staff has plans for Linton Johnson III. It's going to be interesting to see who gets the minutes. There is going to be an odd man out at some point ... especially as they get closer to the playoffs.

[picnroll]

Wonder if they might trade Brown before the deadline for a draft pick or some need. Going to be hard to keep him next year anyway and hard to find minutes that he needs in a contract year.

[ChumpDumper]

Well, your closing lineup is going to be

Parker
Manu
Barry
Duncan
Rose/Horry (whoever is fucking up less)

with the distinct likelihood of switching out Barry for Bowen on defense often.

Should be ok.

[ChumpDumper]

Wonder if they might trade Brown before the deadline for a draft pick or some need. Going to be hard to keep him next year anyway and hard to find minutes that he needs in a contract year.Have you guys watched much Spurs basketball the past three years?

Unless Lint or Brown get to be as good as Bowen on D, Bruce stays.

[picnroll]

Have you guys watched much Spurs basketball the past three years?

Unless Lint or Brown get to be as good as Bowen on D, Bruce stays.

?

[ChumpDumper]

lol

Maybe I should take my own advice about reading -- thought you wrote Bowen.

Intersting thought about Brown, though I don't know who he'd be traded for. We need SFs and he's a short SF. Maybe if someone taller was available.

Maybe a throw-in on a Malik trade.

[Marcus Bryant]

Bowen will continue to have a significant role, but I definitely anticipate that his minutes will decrease. Spurs Basketball begins with defense, but the Spurs have the best contingent of perimeter talent they've had in quite some time. This is going to be a fun offensive team to watch.

[ChumpDumper]

If Barry or Manu were taller or guys like Odom and Peja were shorter....

[picnroll]

Denver could use a good 2 but I don't know that we'd want to help them out. Remeber they had him end of 2002 and wanted him to sign a contract with them for 2003 but he came home. If the Spurs showcased him maybe move up in the draft?

[ChumpDumper]

The only things the Spurs need are tall SFs and to get rid of Malik if he's not going to play ~25mpg.

If moving Brown achieves either, he could be moved.

[Marcus Bryant]

This season Horry's role will probably be to play spot minutes at the 3 against big 3s as needed. Other than Odom and Nowitzki, I'm not too concerned about Barry, Bowen and Ginobili being undersized whenever they play the 3. And there is the flip side, which is that while the Spurs may be a little shorter on the perimeter, their talent is a little bit better than last season.

[picnroll]

Ideal kill two birds, move Malik with Brown as the sweetner for a tall 3 with an ending contract. Make it easier to sign TP and pick-up Scola.

[Marcus Bryant]

Why would you want a player who you could lose and have to move two solid role players for? I'm well aware the Spurs have been recently interested in moving out Rose but I'm not sure that leads to a desire to give up a bunch of talent just to do so.

If Pop and Malik can smoke the peace pipe then barring a good deal coming along I think Rose will stay. Last summer's free agent market ended any notion of Malik's contract being a horrible one.

[ChumpDumper]

It's horrible if he doesn't play the minutes to justify it.

Play him or trade him.

[Marcus Bryant]

Sure. But giving him up for nothing is not too appealing either. Losing talent is never a great proposition.

[ChumpDumper]

If it means being able to keep Parker long term and sign Scola it's a fine proposition.

[Marcus Bryant]

Sure, if ownership wants to be cheap.

[ChumpDumper]

If you're willing to pay the luxury tax yourself, step up.

Otherwise....

[Marcus Bryant]

Assuming that will be around much longer.

[wildbill2u]

I knew Barry was going to be a good shooter, but he has a lot more than that to offer the Spurs. He made a lot of great passes. He ran the floor well. Had a couple dunks. And he carries himself with a lot of confidence.

I still miss Stephen Jackson. But I think Barry is going to be a very, very nice pickup for the Spurs.

Something that many people have either overlooked or short-changed about Barry in my opinion is his veteran presence ON COURT. In the past, the Spurs have relied on veterans like Willis, Kerr, Ferry etc. to provide the newbies with their experience. But those players all had one drawback: They weren't really in the rotation and had to preface their teaching with: "Back when I was a top player, we did it this way..."

Barry is going to be an integral piece of the puzzle with lots of quality playing time, not just a bench presence. When a second unit of younger players is on the court with him, he will steady them with his performance and command presence. I'm very high on this aspect of what he brings to the team.

[ChumpDumper]

Assuming that will be around much longer.San Antonio's status as a small market team and the fact that paying a guy ~$7 million year after year to play less than 20mpg is insane will be around much longer.

Play him or trade him.

[Marcus Bryant]

The SBC Center deal shouldn't be hurting ownership too much, as well as their cut of league revenues. If they can't afford to pay a significant role player the league average then they should sell the franchise to a group who can.

[ChumpDumper]

If they can't afford to pay a significant role player the league averageIf Malik reaches that level of significance again, then keep him.

Otherwise trade him.

No one can justify his salary for the minutes he played last year.

No one.

Play him or trade him.

[Marcus Bryant]

Why not apply that rule to other Spur players? Surely the Spurs could find players to fill other roles on the team for much less than the current roster.

No more excuses for ownership.

[picnroll]

Malik is a nice guy but he's death to a passing/motion offense.

[ChumpDumper]

Why not apply that rule to other Spur players?They pass that test.

Corliss Williamson played more minutes than Malik on a championship team.

Where is he now?

I suppose Detroit needs new ownership too....

[Marcus Bryant]

He's also death to the PT of a soft ass starting center.

[ChumpDumper]

He's also death to the PT of a soft ass starting center.You should probably deal with reality instead of what you want.

[Marcus Bryant]

They don't pass that test because the test is simply finding someone to fill a role more cheaply.

[Marcus Bryant]

If Pop and Rose have ended their feud, then it won't be long before Malik is finishing games. That's reality.

[ChumpDumper]

If Pop and Rose have ended their feudThat's a big if.

What part of "play him or trade him" do you not understand.
They don't pass that test because the test is simply finding someone to fill a role more cheaply.Nope.

The test is playing enough minutes to justify the maount of cap you are eating up.

[Marcus Bryant]

Which is a test based on player cost.

[ChumpDumper]

Which is a test based on player cost.Which Malik failed las year using any reasonable threshold.

So did Mercer but he's gone.

So did Horry but he's back for 1/10 the price.

I'd take a 17mpg Malik for 1/10 the price.

Play him or trade him.

[Nikos]

If Pop and Rose have ended their feud, then it won't be long before Malik is finishing games. That's reality.

In the playoffs? Isn't Horry pretty much on everyones list to finishing games as long as he is healthy and its crunchtime? His defense and clutch shot factor always will probably make Pop itchy to put him in, even if Malik returns to 0203 form. Doesn't mean Malik won't see similiar minutes to 0203, but should it ever come to the point where Malik is a designated finisher along with Duncan underneath?

[Marcus Bryant]

Rose's contract was a determining factor in his playing time. As you pointed out earlier, his contract, not his performance, was the motivation behind the front office's attempts to move him last season.

Thus, ownership is looking to replace him with a cheaper alternative, and not necessarily one of like quality.

[ChumpDumper]

Rose's contract was a determining factor in his playing time.Bullshit.

Rose was signed with the idea he was going to play 24+ mpg.

He's not.

His contract isn't worth it if he isn't playing that much.


Period.

Play him or trade him.

[Marcus Bryant]

Again, the contract determined the playing time last season. You explained above precisely why that is so: because he doesn't fit in the ownership's budget.

[ChumpDumper]

Again, the contract determined the playing time last season.Again, bullshit. If he hadn't been beaten out by Horry and Willis earlier, he would've played those minutes.

Malik got beat out. You have to get over your denial of this.

[Kori Ellis]

Even if he didn't get beat out fairly, Rose himself admits that he did stuff to Pop (which he regrets) that caused him to get benched.

Watch the story.

http://www.woai.com/spurs/story.aspx?content_id=CE1C1F8F-3C76-4CB9-B99A-FFB01AFF2D75

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, he was "beat out" because management and ownership decided he didn't fit in their budget.

Oh, the Spurs could never be so calculating. Right.

[1Parker1]

How was Tony Parker's game at the scrimmage? I saw that he scored only like 4 points, but how did his overall game look?

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, he was "beat out" because management and ownership decided he didn't fit in their budget.

Oh, the Spurs could never be so calculating. Right.Sorry, if your little conspiracy theory was true, Malik never would've played the regular 24mpg this past season BEFORE HE GOT BEAT OUT.

[boutons]

"How was Tony Parker's game at the scrimmage?"

I thought he had a slow first quarter, but I think I saw some fire in the second quarter.
He did push a few breaks pretty hard and finished one break layup with a shoulder stand.

I can't say there was much intensity anywhere, in damn scrimmage. Brent, obviously trying to make a good first impression, succeeded. Having him do the monologue was a nice touch, since he's pretty good as stand-up comic. He's gonna help a lot and be fun to watch.

[Marcus Bryant]

Oh, it's more than just a "conspiracy", it's quite obvious to anyone who has followed this team. Ownership decides he doesn't fit in their budget. Then Rose all of a sudden becomes a troublemaker. No, the Spurs have never made a player out to be greedy or unworthy before. What a naive notion.

A primary driver behind the Spurs' problems with Rose's contract were the future contracts of Ginobili and Parker. Ginobili clearly cost less than the Spurs thought he would. That, along with the fact that the Spurs saw what 5 years and $32 mil would have got them in last summer's free agent market has suddenly turned Rose into the model team player again. Go figure.

[picnroll]

If Malik's play is fine and his contract is such a bargain now why are the Spurs finding it impossible to move him?

[Marcus Bryant]

Perhaps because the Spurs have decided to keep him.

[ChumpDumper]

Gee Marcus, is it easier to trade Malik to the Knicks or Celts at last years' salary if he's playing 24mpg or 14mpg?

Spin away.

A primary driver behind the Spurs' problems with Rose's contract were the future contracts of Ginobili and Parker. Yet, that completely fails to explain Malik's playing time the first two months of the season. You have done nothing to address this.

Nothing.

He got BEAT OUT by Horry last, just like Willis the year before.

If he plays ~24mpg as planned, he's worth it.

If he gets BEAT OUT again like the last two years, he's on the block.

Scola (if this summer's price is an indicator) is going to be cheaper than Rose or Brian Cardinal, so your argument about this summer doesn't fly.

[Marcus Bryant]

They've had opportunities to move him if they wanted to recently. They didn't.

Go figure.

[ChumpDumper]

There are a million reasons trades don't go through.

I completely believe Malik has been given another chance, especially since no trade materialized in time to sign Scola and the pickings for minimum-contract bigs was slim.

If he gets BEAT OUT and plays less than 20mpg again, he's on the block.

Simple.

He'll be played or traded.

Like I've said dozens of times.

[T Park]

I also notice Marcus convieniently ignores Malik admitting doing shit to Pop his ownself to get even.


But, lets focus on that "soft" center.

[Marcus Bryant]

The Spurs were willing to make David Robinson out to be a greedy bastard a few years back. Some here seem to forget that.

Rose did that after the Spurs decided that they wanted to move his contract. Much like the Spurs decided that Rose couldn't play anymore after they decided his contract was too much.

Yes, Radosoft is a soft bastard.

[ChumpDumper]

Ladies and gentlemen, the Marcus Bryant method to make your trade bait more attractive.

1) Cut his playing time by at least a third after playing him his normal minutes for the first two months of the season.

2) Circulate stories in the press about his being a troublemaker.

3) Somehow force him to shoot a career low from the field when he actually does play.

God, how could the Knicks have possibly turned us down?

Tell us about the rabbits, Marcus.

[ducks]

kori has said she thought rose looked in shape
and has regained his hop
I thought he lost his hop last year
he atleast is trying this year seems

[Marcus Bryant]

Rose's contract was what clearly motivated the Spurs desire to move him. It's no secret, well at least to anyone who has been paying attention over the last couple of years. The Spurs were concerned about what it would cost to retain Ginobili and Parker.

All the Spurs were doing was setting up Rose's departure from SA. It never fails, all of a sudden a Spur is greedy or what not and then he's out of SA. That is Pop's fucking modus operandi. As for moving him out of the rotation, why not? The Spurs had decided they were going to move him. I've yet to see any evidence that the impression around the league was that Rose could not do his job. Rose had proven he was one of the best 6th men in the league and he was a playoff performer. He had just done that in the previous season.

Of course I am sure you believed the Spurs really were determined to re-sign David Robinson the entire time back in 2001.

Rose's contract was an issue ever before 'issues' about his play arose.

[picnroll]

I've yet to see any evidence that the impression around the league was that Rose could not do his job.
Rose was left exposed in the expansion draft. Charlotte could have had him for nothing. Hell the Spurs were even willing to throw in $3 million so that Charlotte would just act as a conduit for a team that wanted to pick Rose up so the Spurs could unload him. No takers.

[Marcus Bryant]

Just because Charlotte didn't pick him up does not mean that there was not interest. NY was clearly interested in him. The Spurs didn't offer the $3 mil.

You think after last summer that Rose's 5 years and $32 million looks bad?

Perhaps that is why teams are calling and the Spurs aren't biting. Well, that and the fact that Ginobili's contract ended up being significantly less than anticipated.

[picnroll]

Do you know for a fact teams are calling?

[Marcus Bryant]

Yes.

[ChumpDumper]

Teams are calling now.

Link.

[Marcus Bryant]

http://www.fullsportpress.com

[picnroll]

http://www.dealexpert.net/upload3/untitled_copy7.jpg

Don't give me your shit Bryant




Credits to Karl Mundt for the picture

[Marcus Bryant]

Oh, it's not "shit". And I'll give you whatever I feel like.

[bigzak25]

Now THATS the Rasho I'm talkin bout!!!! :lol

[Marcus Bryant]

Body art and a chia pot aren't going to help him.

[bigzak25]

don't hate the chia, hate the game.....

[ChumpDumper]

That was the weakest link.

Goodbye.

[Marcus Bryant]

You think it's a 'weak link'? I thought you read this forum.

Duh.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, and nothing in this forum has said teams are calling right now.

Duh indeed.

[Marcus Bryant]

That source has proven to be quite reliable.

Actually, there was something in this forum in the past week saying just that. Rather shocking that you don't recall, considering that you employed your patented 'argue incessantly to prove what a hard up bitch I am' strategy in that thread.

Good day.

[ChumpDumper]

Then link it.

I was in Vegas most of last week, so I didn't read everything.

Sue me.

If it's Ainge or Zeke, it's old news and can't be pawned off as current.

[T Park]

Im still waiting for that link as well.


Also still waiting for Marcu's comments on Malik HIMSELF saying he did shit to get himself benched last year.


tick tock.....

[Marcus Bryant]

You apparently had time before or during your desert sojourn to read and participate in that thread.

Here it is. (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3867&page=2)

Seems pretty current to me. No doubt you will argue for 20 more pages that it is isn't what it is. Too bad you couldn't have left your menstrual cycle in Sin City.

Oh, and Stay Puff, suck it. Rose apparently did some shit after he got benched for daring to sign a contract.

[ChumpDumper]

Before the trip.

As I said, old news.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yeah, week old.

[picnroll]

I have no doubt Malik can be traded. Celtics might trade him for the two years they owe on Vin Baker's contract or for Ricky "headcase" Davis and his longterm contract. Cuban would probably even pony up Wahad or Booth and their contracts. Question is can the Spurs get something they need for him like an ending contract for him?

Maybe Malik is going to get another chance although with Scola on the horizon I don't see where he fits longterm. There are probably only about 30 GMs that think Rasho and his contract is a better deal than Malik and his. Other than that Malik > Rasho is real sound thinking.

[bigzak25]

malik better not go anywhere this year....he will be sorely needed to get past the other contenders....

[ChumpDumper]

I saw no dates for the offer in that post.

Or what the offer was.

[Marcus Bryant]

Question is can the Spurs get something they need for him like an ending contract for him?


For less than 5 years and $32 mil? That wouldn't have gotten you a Cardinal or a piece of Foyle last summer.

Radosoft can't seem to give what Rose can inside and Radosoft has half a foot on him.

[Marcus Bryant]

Then send an email.

[picnroll]

Radosoft can't seem to give what Rose can inside and Radosoft has half a foot on him.
We've been through this. Radosoft has a higher per 48 minute rebouding average, a muuuuch higher per 48 minute block shot average. He is a faaaar more disciplined and effective post defender. He shoots for a better average even in an off year and doesn't take dumb shots especially in critical situations, make dumb fouls especially in critical situations, make bad turnovers especially in critical situations. You're too caught up in Rasho looks and demeanor and not what he contributes, particularly against certain players.

I hope Malik has a great year. He is what he is and even if he's not playing the blackhole he's not going to be the high IQ Manu, Barry or believe it or not Radosoft player. He's going to have his defensive limtations on the blocks. But if he does reverts to the blackhole I expect his ass to be on the bench and Massenburg getting his minutes.

[Marcus Bryant]

Sure, Radosoft was a regular member of the rotation. The sad thing is that even given that and his size his per 48 minute stats were only a few hundredth points better than Rose.

I don't see anyone else pretending that Radosoft is a physical interior player like Rose.

I guess Pop was caught up with Radosoft's demeanor and looks when he said that Radosoft needed to 'find his aggressiveness' at the end of last season.

[Karl Mundt]

Sure, Radosoft was a regular member of the rotation. The sad thing is that even given that and his size his per 48 minute stats were only a few hundredth points better than Rose.

I don't see anyone else pretending that Radosoft is a physical interior player like Rose.

You seem to fail to understand what stats per 48 minutes mean. They are designed for one sole purpose and that is to compare stats between players with different playing times. It's not like someone is trying to compare Rasho's 7.7 rebounds to Malik's 4.8 and use that information as a base to favour one over the other. With stats per minutes you get a clear picture of how much (statistically anyway) a player does per every minute he is on the court.
I'm sure your rationale for bringing up the fact that Malik wasn't part of the rotation will be that when a player doesn't get regular minutes, he doesn't have the time to warm up and get into the right rhythm in the few minutes he gets. But i could just as seriously argue that a player with less playing time has an easier job for performing better (per minute) because he is playing relatively fresh for the entire time he stays on the court instead of having to battle for every rebound for much longer stretches of time. In my opinion it is harder to get the same kind of numbers per minute when you have to play for 40 minutes instead of 5 for example.

[picnroll]

Mundt don't forget Malik's also playing against the other teams second line and scrubs a lot.

[Marcus Bryant]

You seem to fail to understand what stats per 48 minutes mean. They are designed for one sole purpose and that is to compare stats between players with different playing times.

How have I failed to understand that? The point is that when you compare the two players by that metric the difference is small and in the case of Nesterovic it isn't good considering that he has a distinct size advantage over Rose as well as a regular spot in the rotation.



I'm sure your rationale for bringing up the fact that Malik wasn't part of the rotation will be that when a player doesn't get regular minutes, he doesn't have the time to warm up and get into the right rhythm in the few minutes he gets.

Now you are getting it.

[ChumpDumper]

Nevermind the fact that when Malik had 24mpg early in the season before he was BEAT OUT he was shooting about 32%.

What's the excuse for those 17 games?

[ChumpDumper]

I'll grant you Horry's numbers weren't much better, but at least he could hit the three.

[Marcus Bryant]

Rose got the bulk of his minutes when TD was out in that stretch, which included the double OT game against the Lakers.

[Marcus Bryant]

And Malik has a tad bit more strength down low.

[ChumpDumper]

Rose got the bulk of his minutes when TD was out in that stretch, which included the double OT game against the Lakers.So that makes it even worse.

32%fg

17 games

Tell me how that's good.

[Marcus Bryant]

Oh please. For starters, how many shots does he take a game?

That's not his role. The Spurs weren't going to trade him for that. Again, why did they want to move him? His contract. It begins and ends with that contract.

[ChumpDumper]

Oh please. For starters, how many shots does he take a game?Seven in that stretch.
That's not his role.So power forwards no longer have to shoot over 33%?

Circulate that memo.

[Marcus Bryant]

If you want to hold those 1st 17 games over his head, then you can't ignore his 20 point, 22 performance against the Mavs with TD out, or his 14 pts 11 rebs versus Miami, 23 & 8 against the Wiz, 26 & 11 against the Clips, and so on.

[Kori Ellis]

If you are going to judge Malik on those 17 games, then I guess you should bench Bowen and a few other Spurs. A lot of players suck over a small sample size of games.

[Marcus Bryant]

A cold shooting streak for a few games is not a reason to run a player out of town. Especially when he performed as well as he had in a number of games in that stretch.

Apparently you missed that part of the 'memo'.

[ChumpDumper]

I will judge Malik over those 17 games because it's after those 17 games that he was benched in favor of Horry.

It's what actually happened.

[Karl Mundt]

How have I failed to understand that? The point is that when you compare the two players by that metric the difference is small and in the case of Nesterovic it isn't good considering that he has a distinct size advantage over Rose as well as a regular spot in the rotation.

This is beating a dead horse but your second sentence tells you how you failed to understand that.

This is going nowhere and will go nowhere. I'm done

[ChumpDumper]

If a player gets beat out year after year by whatever old fart you happen to sign and you end up paying him $6 million to play 15mpg, you'd be an idiot to not consider moving him.

Here's hoping he doesn't get beat out this year.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yes, it is going nowhere because you have no point. I haven't failed to grasp anything O wise one.

[Marcus Bryant]

Perhaps, just perhaps, the Spurs decided to go with Horry because, again, they committed themselves to moving Rose? And why might they be so inclined? Again, his contract.

Ok, if you are going to judge him over those 1st 17 games then how many boards per game did he have? How do you ignore him stepping up when TD was out?

[CosmicCowboy]

Malik is very entertaining to watch play...hustle, hustle, hustle, hustle, rebound, pump fake, pump fake, pump fake, pump fake, rejection...kick and reset the offense has simply never been in his offensive repetoire...which is why he was sitting on the bench last year...

If Pop and Malik got that little flaw in his game worked out he could be very valuable to the Spurs this year...

[ChumpDumper]

Perhaps, just perhaps, the Spurs decided to go with Horry because, again, they committed themselves to moving Rose? And why might they be so inclined? Again, his contract.Perhaps it was his play was subpar.

You've done nothing to prove there was some great changed in the cap or contract situations at the time Malik was benched. I, on the other hand, have cited substandard play and a ready replacement.

The ball is in your court.

Prove it.

[Marcus Bryant]

It was rather clear the Spurs wanted to move Rose because his contract did not fit into their long term plans. Even Ludden managed to point that out. Given that Ginobili was a free agent this summer and that Parker's new deal would start in 05-06 it is clear they would be adding some rather significant salary in the next couple of years.

Perhaps, just perhaps they wanted to see if Horry had anything left before they made the effort to move Rose and his contract?


If a player gets beat out year after year by whatever old fart you happen to sign and you end up paying him $6 million to play 15mpg, you'd be an idiot to not consider moving him.

And you'd be an "idiot" to run a frontcourt player out of town who performed so well in last season's title run, prior playoff runs, and in general over the last 5 years over some cold shooting in a few early season games, especially when he had turned in some rather strong performances otherwise.

After the season Ginobili was signed for less than anticipated and the Spurs perhaps realized that a decent replacement for Rose might cost more than 5 years and $32 mil, if the contracts received by certain players last summer were any guide. Funny how after a couple of those deals were signed as well as Ginobili's that Malik suddenly turned into a team player who the Spurs wanted to keep. Go figure.

[Marcus Bryant]

The Spurs wanted to move Rose for KThomas at the trade deadline last season. Why? Because KThomas had an expiring contract. Why is that significant? Because they wanted to reduce their future payroll with Ginobili and Parker up for new deals soon.

This wasn't a new concept. Ginobili had performed quite well in the 2003 playoffs and had raised his stock considerably. Going into the 2003-04 season it certainly looked like keeping Ginobili was going to be quite expensive in the summer of 2004.

The decision to move Rose was not based on his shooting percentage over a few games. It was made whenever the Spurs determined that Rose did not fit into their long term budget, a decision primarily tied to Parker and Ginobili's impending free agency.

[ducks]

also because rose lost his hops last year because he was out of shape

[Marcus Bryant]

If Pop is capable of flying to DRob's Hawaii home in the summer of 2001, telling DRob that he was done and making him a crap offer how exactly is it farfetched that Pop entered the season with the goal of moving Rose (and his contract) out of the rotation and eventually out of town in a trade? Pop has shown that he has no problem doing Holt's bidding.

The Spurs treated DRob like crap and were prepared to run him out of town but it is inconceivable that they would do the same to Malik Rose? Come on.

Who decided to bench Malik? Pop. Isn't that rather convenient?

Just look at what the Spurs wanted back for Rose. An expiring contract (or in the case of Charlotte, none at all). Now why would that be? Perhaps, just perhaps, because they wanted to get rid of long term payroll. It is this fact which makes the motivation of the Spurs rather clear.

It was always about the contract.

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, let's overlook the fact he wasn't playing the way he did before the contract. Easy for a homer to do.

You bet your ass it was about the contract -- you have done nothing to convince anyone that a 15mpg, $6 million per year, get-beat-out-by-Kevin-Willis-one-year-and-Rob-Horry-the-next guy is worth keeping around.

Of course Malik gets the nod in the rotation this season because he looks like the best option after the Spurs couldn't get rid of him for nothing to make room for Scola. If he gets beat again out by Horry or even Thomas, do you think he'll be worth his contract playing 15 mpg AGAIN?

Yes or no?

[Nikos]

Wasn't this thread originally about Brent Barry?

The problem is Malik tried to do too much, and didn't play his best basketball within the team concept. He disobeyed Pop and that made is easy to bench him for the safe, and once clutch/intagible filled Robert Horry, who could defend and hit threes.

Yeah they tried to move Malik for contract/basketball reasons, but the guy has a chance to redeem himself this season. If he doesn't bring himself out of the doghouse, and play like he did in 0203, he will be benched.

It's all up to Malik really. His offense and energy are needed, but I still doubt he finishes many games unless Horry really is on the decline from last year. Nonetheless he is a valuable piece to the team and needs to regain his old form. Malik can't force the issue too much, and he must be be active/aggressive and less of a black hole on offense.

[Marcus Bryant]

Yes, let's overlook the fact he wasn't playing the way he did before the contract.

All you've provided was his FG% in a few games. You rather conveniently forget a number of his single game performances in that limited number of games which were rather significant.



Easy for a homer to do.

Nanny nanny poo poo.




You bet your ass it was about the contract -- you have done nothing to convince anyone that a 15mpg, $6 million per year, get-beat-out-by-Kevin-Willis-one-year-and-Rob-Horry-the-next guy is worth keeping around.

I suppose I was imagining things when I saw Rose be a vital part of yet another Spurs' championship season in 2003. It was quite convenient for Pop to decide that Rose was out of the rotation, given that it was always about the contract. Notice how the Spurs were dead set on not getting anything but an expiring contract back? Now if it wasn't about moving the contract in the first place why was that?

And moving a younger big with a proven record of performance just because of some cold shooting over a few games at the start of the season is fucking stupid. That's the stuff of fans who believe everything the team says. Some might call them a "homer", I just know them as Chump Humper.



Of course Malik gets the nod in the rotation this season because he looks like the best option after the Spurs couldn't get rid of him for nothing

Actually they could move him if they wanted and pretty much get what they want now. But they haven't. Hmmm.



to make room for Scola. If he gets beat again out by Horry

Scola is yet another Euro-softie. Horry is not preferable as the primary backup big.



or even Thomas,


:guffaw




do you think he'll be worth his contract playing 15 mpg AGAIN?

Oh he'll play more than 15 minutes.




Yes or no?

Do you own a Black Mamba vibrator? Yes or no?

You are arguing against the reality of the situation. I guess if you think you aren't you should believe what you read over at that other forum and leave us "homers" here alone, Honeycakes.

-MB

[Man Mountain]

If he gets beat again out by Horry or even Thomas, do you think he'll be worth his contract playing 15 mpg AGAIN?

If Rose gets "beat out" by Thomas I'll pay to give Popovich a CAT scan ASAP :)