When did the "Everybody Must Small Ball" memo come out?

[ShoogarBear]

Cause I must have missed it.

All of this noise about the Inevitable Impending Small Ball Tsunami in the Era of Steve Nash Dominance seems to be entirely based on the 13 postseason games the Spurs played against the Kings and Mavs. So are we discounting the entire regular season on the basis of one playoff series?If there was any mention of this inevitability PRIOR to that time, I'd sure appreciate someone giving me a link to that discussion.

If Detroit or Miami smacks down whichever of the Runts from the West come out, will order be restored? Are you convinced this is here to stay, or just a fad until Dwight Howard finishes puberty and Greg Oden does his wink-wink year in the Big Ten?

[timvp]

I'm hoping it's a fad because it's not a good thing for the Spurs.

To answer your question though, the memo came out when the NBA outlawed handchecking a player driving to the basket. Add in the charge circle and now players who can drive to the basket are a lot more dangerous than they were just a few years ago.

That's not even mentioning zone defense, which has allowed smaller teams to compete defensively.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

The handchecking rule was changed back in 97 right?


We have to remember that there have been "Future style of nba: small ball" type stories ever since the Mavs-Kings high scoring seasons in 2002, shortly after the zone introduction.

Has a small ball team won a championship since then?

[ALVAREZ6]

That's why you should never get into NBA basketball in the first place...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I think handchecking should be allowed....it was lame when they changed that.

However

Parker would avg about 9 points a game if they went back to that rule.

[timvp]

Look at the final four teams. They all have mobile interior players. Dallas has Dirk. Phoenix has Marion and Diaw. Miami has Haslem. Detroit has the Wallaces.

If you don't have power forwards who can move, you're dead nowadays. The other team can just isolate your big and get easy shots. Then on the other end, they can zone it up and survive with a smaller guy on your big.

The NBA evolved.

[Bruno]

To beat small ball, you need to have quality offensive bigs who can't be defended by small player or you must play small ball.
Only Duncan is a dominent big that need to be defended by a big : we have to follow small ball team.
Welcome in 2006.

[timvp]

The handchecking rule was changed back in 97 right?


No the big change in the handchecking rule came before last season. Now you can't even touch a player unless their back is to the basket.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I think if we had a cuban-esque owner, we'd kill that fad instantly.

Any team can be tooled to counter this small ball crap (especially if you have Tim fucking Duncan, the greatest zone passer and post scorer alive). I still think we could have beat Dallas if we played nazr and rasho more. Our coaches acted as if Nazr and Rasho had never played against a quick team in their entire professional careers.
It's fuckin stupid, and I think pop got caught up in his devaluation of Nazr.

A substitution here and there for the Spurs, and this small ball nonsense is stopped in its tracks for the umpteenth season.

[ShoogarBear]

I'm hoping it's a fad because it's not a good thing for the Spurs.

To answer your question though, the memo came out when the NBA outlawed handchecking a player driving to the basket. Add in the charge circle and now players who can drive to the basket are a lot more dangerous than they were just a few years ago.

That's not even mentioning zone defense, which has allowed smaller teams to compete defensively.

All those things happened several years ago, and the Spurs have at least one championship during that time.

As far as I can tell, all these discussions about how the Spurs have to change started on or about April 28, 2006.

I would like see a lot more data before saying we have to revamp.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

All those things happened several years ago, and the Spurs have at least one championship during that time.

As far as I can tell, all these discussions about how the Spurs have to change started on or about April 28, 2006.

I would like see a lot more data before saying we have to revamp.


Exactly. I think thats kinda funny.

We all know the predication of the spurs defense, but if the game changes the coaches have to change. Pop has blatantly shown himself in the past to be an unchanging single track kinda coach. I echo timvp: it will be bad for the spurs.

[timvp]

The handchecking rule in question was implemented before the 2004-05 season. It's a big reason why Manu exploded last playoffs.

Teams copied by stocking up on cutters. Spurs were ahead of the curve. Now they don't have a power forward to put next to Duncan to compete.

[ALVAREZ6]

I think the Spurs need another big guy download who can create on his own.

He doesn't have to be an Amare or anything, but someone to tack some slack of Duncan would be great, especially since he's getting older, and will probably get a little more inconsistent, even though he was so dominant in the Mavs series.

Someone who could put points up on the board down low while Tim Duncan is on the bench would be great. But he better be able to play D and rebound.

If the Spurs only have 1 big guy who can score, it will hurt them. If Tim has 1 off night, then no points are coming from a big that night. That needs to change.

[Bruno]

As far as I can tell, all these discussions about how the Spurs have to change started on or about April 28, 2006.


http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=647456&postcount=1



First I'm not a nba specialist, so correct me if I'm wrong.

Against Hawks three weeks ago, Harrington killed us in the first quarter and then he was Bowned.
That was great but it's not Bowen task to defend against opposite PF. He should defend on the best opposite swingmen. Even against long three, he does a great job.

Against Lakers, Bruce bowned Bryant but Odom scored 27 on us.

We have nobody to defend on quick PF with some perimeter offense like Odom, Nowitzki, Jamison, SAR, Harrington...
We have some difficulties against small ball too. (see Bulls@home)

Among our 5 bigs the only one able to defend well against such players is Horry and he is in the freezer til April.

After the Malik trade and the signing of Oberto instead of Scola, I find that our PF/C rotation is not well balanced. More and more teams play with combo forward at the power forward and we haven't any good answer against that.

We have the mystical long three, but don't we missed more a fast four ?
Even if the playoff will be a different story, I find a little worrisome to have allmost every game an opponent we couldn't matchup well.

Should we be worried about that or am I in Bullshit mode ?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

So you're sayin so far it looks like Duncan will man the ship at Center next season?

I dont think this is that big of a deal. Even if we have to change....Maybe I still have too much faith in that fucker Pop.

But how fucking hard can it be to sign a rebounding athletic power forward who isn't a sloth? How can every playoff team but the Spurs have one of these?
I think its time for Pop et al to stop signing these fucking Euro 10 year projects and find an immediate impact rebounder outta college. If memory serves there were plenty of rebounding athletic big men in the ncaa last season.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I think the Spurs need another big guy download who can create on his own.

He doesn't have to be an Amare or anything, but someone to tack some slack of Duncan would be great, especially since he's getting older, and will probably get a little more inconsistent, even though he was so dominant in the Mavs series.

Someone who could put points up on the board down low while Tim Duncan is on the bench would be great. But he better be able to play D and rebound.

If the Spurs only have 1 big guy who can score, it will hurt them. If Tim has 1 off night, then no points are coming from a big that night. That needs to change.

That would not work well

[strangeweather]

Cause I must have missed it.

All of this noise about the Inevitable Impending Small Ball Tsunami in the Era of Steve Nash Dominance seems to be entirely based on the 13 postseason games the Spurs played against the Kings and Mavs. So are we discounting the entire regular season on the basis of one playoff series?If there was any mention of this inevitability PRIOR to that time, I'd sure appreciate someone giving me a link to that discussion.

If Detroit or Miami smacks down whichever of the Runts from the West come out, will order be restored? Are you convinced this is here to stay, or just a fad until Dwight Howard finishes puberty and Greg Oden does his wink-wink year in the Big Ten?

For too long in the NBA, it's been standard practice for a lot of teams to have one guy (hopefully) in the paint that can actually play, and some slow schmuck standing next to him that doesn't do very much except provide sluggish help defense and maybe rebound or block a little.

Some teams have now had the bright idea that it would be better to field 5 guys who can actually play instead of 4 guys who can play and a center. Most teams' center can't do much offensively anyway, so you can put Boris Diaw on him and not lose too much defensively. Meanwhile, Diaw can move all over the court on offense, which means that the slow center guy either tries to keep up and opens up the paint to cutters, or he gives up open jumpers.

So here's the thing: you don't have to play small ball.

If we had David standing next to Tim, we wouldn't be playing smaller, we'd be jamming the ball down everyone's throats in the paint and laughing hysterically while Boris Diaw tried to cover The Admiral.

But as everyone is well aware, Rasho != David.

So it seems to me that here's what you have to do: either find someone who is a big enough offensive threat that he's a matchup problem in his own right, or find someone mobile enough that he can defend someone like Dirk either inside or outside. Ideally you have both these guys.

Tim is the definitive example of the post player that is a devastating offensive force. But he's not usually the guy you want out on the perimeter defending SFs that are pretending to be PFs. That's the guy we need to have playing next to Tim when we play small ball teams.

[ShoogarBear]

Don't get me wrong, I think it's good that we are thinking about things we can do to improve.

But like a few other people, I'm not sure that we didn't go into panic mode at the first signs of cracking, and threw out the baby with the bath water (mixed those mofos like a blender there).

At some level, I'd love to see Miami win the sucker, just to put a hold on all this talk.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I really don't understand you considering Detroit 'small ball' though, just cuz Rasheed can hit the three.

[ALVAREZ6]

That would not work well
You don't think another guy down there wouldn't help?


You expect Tim to own the paint offensively and defensively every single game? Because he's the only one down there.



I never said he has to be a starter or a notorious scoring champion.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

You don't think another guy down there wouldn't help?


You expect Tim to own the paint offensively and defensively every single game? Because he's the only one down there.



I never said he has to be a starter or a notorious scoring champion.


Well if we are pounding it inside to someone else, and they're playing zone or a man zone, and that guy gets suffocated, what's he going to do?

Set up Duncan for a jumper? I dont want duncan becoming a jump shooter.

[ShoogarBear]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost.php?p=647456&postcount=1

Nice post, props.

However, we've been yakking about the Long 3 for a while. And I can find posts where I have been saying we need an athletic 4 more than a long 3 since at least December (after the Detroit embarassment).

However, I don't think that's Small Ball.

[ALVAREZ6]

Well if we are pounding it inside to someone else, and they're playing zone or a man zone, and that guy gets suffocated, what's he going to do?

Set up Duncan for a jumper? I dont want duncan becoming a jump shooter.
Use the bulk of his minutes when Tim is on the bench, I don't want Tim to be a jump shooter either.


If he gets suffocated, he can kick it out to TP, Manu, Finley, etc.


Honostly, how many other guys besides Tim Duncan get double/triple teamed like he did last series???

[strangeweather]

oh so i guess this thread settles it

the nba is lame

I hope I'm not slaughtering anyone's sacred cow here, but IMHO the NBA was a hell of a lot lamer when everyone just ran the isolation play. 8 guys standing around watching one on one basketball is the lamest thing ever.

[Bruno]

Nice post, props.

However, we've been yakking about the Long 3 for a while. And I can find posts where I have been saying we need an athletic 4 more than a long 3 since at least December (after the Detroit embarassment).

However, I don't think that's Small Ball.

I don't think we should be a small ball team too and I haven't see post saying we should go small ball next year. Detroit, Miami, Dallas aren't small ball teams.
What I want for next year is a PF/SF at the PF spot and not a PF/C like Duncan.

[ShoogarBear]

I hope I'm not slaughtering anyone's sacred cow here, but IMHO the NBA was a hell of a lot lamer when everyone just ran the isolation play. 8 guys standing around watching one on one basketball is the lamest thing ever.

I understand the point you're trying to make, but the Mavs do almost nothing except isolation and high pick-n-rolls.

In another thread somebody posted they had one of the worst assist-to-basket ratios of the past several decades(?).

[strangeweather]

I understand the point you're trying to make, but the Mavs do almost nothing except isolation and high pick-n-rolls.

In another thread somebody posted they had one of the worst assist-to-basket ratios of the past several decades(?).

Thanks to the NBA decriminalizing the moving pick, the high pick-and-roll is the deadliest play in basketball right now. Slow down the defender with a screen that doesn't have to be set properly anymore, and race to the basket to either create contact or lay it up.

But there's plenty of good news on that front: both Manu and Tony are completely lethal off the high pick, so we can give as good as we get.

A more mobile PF makes it easier to switch defenders, which reduces the advantage the offense now has.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Small ball isn't an athletic four or long three. Small ball is the kind of shit you saw when we trotted out Tim along with Bowen, Finley, Manu, and Tim.

And if the Spurs are going to play small ball like that, they will never win another NBA championship in the Tim Duncan era.

[strangeweather]

Small ball isn't an athletic four or long three. Small ball is the kind of shit you saw when we trotted out Tim along with Bowen, Finley, Manu, and Tim.

And if the Spurs are going to play small ball like that, they will never win another NBA championship in the Tim Duncan era.

Probably not.

But if we had the athletic four and/or the long three, we wouldn't have had to go to the well and try to call Finley a PF.