Who Believes the Bible Is Literally True?

[Oh, Gee!!]

Nearly one-third of Americans believe the Bible is literally true, word-for-word, reports the Christian Post, a drop of 10 percent over the past 30 years.

In the Gallup survey, more than 1,002 adults were asked to describe their view of the Bible. Here are the results:
--28 percent said the Bible is the "actual Word of God and is to be taken literally."
--49 percent said the Bible is the "inspired word of God but not everything in it should be taken literally."
--19 percent said it is an "ancient book of fables, legends, history and moral precepts recorded by man."

The number of people who believe the Bible is literally true increases with age with the highest number of such believers living in the South and the lowest number living in the West. Younger people are less likely to profess belief in the literal Bible, and just 10 percent of college graduates say so, compared with 39 percent of people with a high school education or less.

http://channels.netscape.com/whatsnew/default.jsp?story=20060526-0942


Where do u stand? Hmmm?

[turambar85]

I have a hard time believing that it can be, word-for-word, literally true. Too many of its teachings just seem so backwards and against the Christian message. For example, Sauls consistent ramblings against women and their involvement in church and society. Its hilarious, I know some people who believe the bible is 100% literal and factual, yet do not take heed of any of these teachings.

[JoeChalupa]

I do.

[smeagol]

I don't

[j-6]

edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible_translations

Too many translations before present day with too many political axes to grind.

[clambake]

History of the Bible is a myth that men of influence agreed to believe.

[JoeChalupa]

I'm keeping the faith.

[Lebowski Brickowski]

Every Word In The Bible Is An Historical Fact And Every Event Can Be Documented As Fact With A Simple Timeline. Duh.

[smeagol]

I'm keeping the faith.
Just like Billy Joel :spin

[clambake]

The Bible is Fact? Hang on a minute. Let me go ask this burning bush about that.

[smeagol]

History of the Bible is a myth that men of influence agreed to believe.

So 2000 years ago, 12 ignorant jewish fishermen and their followers invented a story that is believed by billions of people today.

Yeah, right . . .

[clambake]

This thread asks the question if you believe the Bible in literal terms. You didn't appreciate the burning bush comment? OK. Then I will ask this snake about this thread if he ever stops arguing about an apple I picked.

[gtownspur]

Who needs biblical verification when you have the biblical talking ass clambake on this forum.

[clambake]

Ouch. I must have hit a spiritual nerve. I didn't mean any harm. The question of the thread. Is that so hard? Which side of the family are you from? Adam of Eve?

[Bartzini]

Stole this from another site...but it made me LOL


JUDAISM -
So there are these people running around for a hell of a long time, right? Pretty sure they were called Hebrews, but it was so long ago, they really can't remember any more. They were a wacky group back in the day, 'cause they had this notion that there was only one God. In their holy text called The "Torah," it kinda named this all powerful dude, but it was all a buncha consonants - JHVH or something. Maybe Yahweh. Anyhow, the poor Jews had a favorite (huh?) pastime, and was getting persecuted. Moses was this awesome Disney character and he asked his god do a whole lotta nasty shit to the Egyptians so they could bolt. It worked, but when they were roaming the desert, Moses lost most of them somehow on the way to the Promised Land. That sucked. But Moses snagged the Ten Commandments, so props to him. The still get yelled at every few hundred years when idiots get bored and their Promised Land is a war zone. Poor Jews.

Jews have all kinds of traditions and rituals that nobody understands. The men wear little hats called "Yamukas" and some of them have weird curly side burns. There's a ton of stuff they won't eat, and most have never had a cheeseburger, 'cause they won't mix dairy and meat. (That's sad.) They have "Bar/Batmitvah's" for their kids when they hit puberty which is a big ass reason to party. Big, mutli-wick candles are lit at Christmas time, but they have, like, 8 days to celebrate or something.


CHRISTIANITY -
The Jews were hangin' out, being groovy and what-not. Then this dude said, "I'm the son of god and stuff." His mom was a different Madonna than the one who sang "Like A Prayer," and this Jesus fellow got a crew together and went around teaching and doing miracles. One of his buddies sold him out for a quick fix of smack and Jesus gets nailed to a cross. Just to show off, he returns from the dead a few days later and goes "PWNED!" All of his followers think the Jews had a good thing with the Torah, but decide it's just "The Old Testament." They make a new one, too, all about the not-so-dead son of god. Within a few years, everybody is a freakin' Christian because it's trendy. Then they all start to argue over how to read a book and run a church. Now we have 18 billion different types of Christians. Hooray.

Christians celebrate the birth of their Savior, which makes sense, and also his death/rebirth, which is a little spooky. They say it's cause he "died for our sins," but I don't remember that particular afternoon. There are so many off-shoots and side-cults based on Christianity now, it's a bit ridiculous. They really like those Ten Commandments, but only when they are convenient. A lot of them like to sing, but not very well. They are very good, however, at murdering people of other religions... and their own.


ISLAM -
And now we have Jews and Christians. Some of these folks have traveled into Persia where they still worship ancient Arabian gods. Everything's a big jumbly mess until this Muhammad chap steps up. God comes to him and says, "Jews are nice, and Jesus rocked and all, but I have a better idea for a book. Listen up!" God directly gives his words to Muhammad who writes this all down in the "Qur'an." He leaves Mecca, goes to Medina and fights a whole bunch. In the end, he was kinda pissy with the Jews and the Christians. Muslims all believe the Qur'an to be the literal word of Allah, but Gabriel had a hand in it, too. There are a number of different kinds of Muslims, but according to Fox News, there is only Sunni and Shiite and they're both bad.

Muslims pray constantly, always facing towards Mecca. This incessant prayer gets in their way of doing their best not to eat pork. (Although beef hotdogs are a-okay!) A good portion of the devoted men don't bother cutting their hair, and frequently wrap towels upon their heads because it is very hot in the desert. Let's be honest, Islam is the kid brother to Christianity who is chasing Judaism going "Me too, me too! Don't forget the Pagans!"



HINDUISM -
These are the Indians with the "Dot," not the "Feathers." They've been around a long ass time, probably longer than those Jews over there. Their Trinity is all about three gods as one. "Brahma the Creator" , "Vishnu the Preserver" and "Shiva the Destroyer." You can read all about their adventures, as well as Krishna, Rama, Kali and thirteen gazillion other deities in the holy book, the "Bhagavad-Gita." The world was hatched from an egg, and there's an elephant involved somewhere. Damn elephants. Oh, and they have this point system, like in RPG's but slightly more life-altering called Karma. And "Dharma" is not just that hot chick from that shitty sit-com. Om!

Hindu people love their damn cows, and won't eat them. They also used to have a very rigid caste system, which made everybody secretly miserable except the rich princes and the Untouchables. Thanks to the "Kama Sutra" all their sexy, kinky shit is world wide now. There was this little guy who was always old, and his name was Mohandas. He changed things for the better and is perhaps synonomous with contemporary thought entering into India. Yeah, Gandhi was kick ass in his loin cloth...


BUDDHISM -
Once upon a time, there was this Hindu Prince whose dad was way overprotective. He didn't want his son seeing any nasty shit, so he always kept the kid free of worldly pain. This plan failed. The kid grew up, ditched his wife, sat under a lotus tree for a long time in contemplation and walked away as the Buddha. He strolled around and told everybody that there biggest problem was that they "wanted," and this caused suffering. Everything was suffering to this dude. But he would tell a bunch of neat-o riddles that you would try and think about to reach "Zen," and things could get better. All in all, it sucks to be alive.

The Buddha died and everybody was super sad, but he pops up again. The Dali Lama runs around as the reincarnation of the old dude after meeting Kurt Cobain in Nirvana or something. They used to teach about the "Eight-fold Path" and the tantric ways in Tibet, but the Chinese drove them all out. 'Cause ya know those wily Buddhists, they cause so much trouble, setting themselves on fire in silent protest.



TAOISM -
So this crazy old guy lived out in the woods, and his name was Lao Tzu. He didn't bother anybody, but people always came to him with questions since the dude was so old (which translates into wise.) Even the local Prince would bother him for advice ever now and again, and Lao Tzu would just sigh and tell these fucks the best ideas he had. One day, he hears the Prince is going to do something stupid, so he actually leaves the woods and goes to the castle. The Prince tells Lao Tzu to shove off. Lao Tzu gives mankind the middle finger, gets on the back of a giant water buffalo and proceeds to ride off into the sunset. At the gate, a soldier begs him not to leave. Lao Tzu goes and sits under a tree with his buffalo, writes the "Tao Te Ching" in a few days, hands in to guard and bails out. The End.

Lao Tzu never preached a word of his religion/philosophy, so no one is sure what he really wanted. The Tao is "The Way" and is never fully explained, but is some kind of all powerful energy in everything that flows at all times. Okay. He came up with the concepts of the "Yin" and "Yang" along with the symbol that a bunch of white surfers would eventually steal. It's all about balance and big time mystical mumbo-jumbo of the like. The "I Ching" figures in here as well somehow...



CONFUCIANISM -
Confucius was a bastard. He pretty much spent all his time writing about how he "thought" people ought to act in polite society and seeking out a job with any Prince dumb enough to employ him. His Five Classics (Wu Ching) and Four Books (Ssu Shu) are nothing but civil service examples. Much more a philosophy than a religion, he must be thrilled that there are temples erected in his honor. Confucius met Loa Tzu once, actually. He was terrified of the old Taoist Master and likened him to a "Dragon." Pussy.

His teachings were big throughout the educational system of China for centuries. He came up with the "Golden Rule" on his own and generally wagged his finger at everybody, telling them to behave. There has been an unspoken feud between Confucianism and Taoism for centuries, because they sprung up at the same time and they are so drastically different. However, because of those differences, they are also able to co-exist together relatively peacefully. Americans came to know Confucius riddles through the aid of cookies served at Chinese restaurants. Ever notice how the notes have gone downhill recently?



OTHER STUFF -
There are other major world religions out there as well. Jainism, Shintoism, Sikhism, and Zoroastorism are some, but let's be honest... no one cares. There are Wiccans, of course, but they are a silly people. There's a bunch of semi-dead faiths floating around the Americas, but not enough people practice them to be recognize here. Plus I can't spell, let alone pronounce any of that Aztec shit. And Satanists, well... they're just bored.

[fyatuk]

Nearly one-third of Americans believe the Bible is literally true, word-for-word, reports the Christian Post, a drop of 10 percent over the past 30 years.


If my copy of the bible (King James/New King James) is literally true, then God and Satan are the same entity...

Good thing I'm not Christian and don't have to worry about it.

[clambake]

Pretty funny, Bartzini! Does duck and cover mean anything to you?

[xrayzebra]

So 2000 years ago, 12 ignorant jewish fishermen and their followers invented a story that is believed by billions of people today.

Yeah, right . . .

Your statement in it's self should tell you something. Don't you think that
is some kind of miracle?

Every word true! I am not sure that can be, but I do believe what the bible
teaches. God does exist and I think proven everyday. And I do know
prayers are answered. Yes I believe and have no shame in saying as
much.

[DarkReign]

Your statement in it's self should tell you something. Don't you think that
is some kind of miracle?

Every word true! I am not sure that can be, but I do believe what the bible
teaches. God does exist and I think proven everyday. And I do know
prayers are answered. Yes I believe and have no shame in saying as
much.

Now, if every religious person answered something similar to that, I would respect the faiths more.

Rational, but spiritual.

[boutons_]

The Bible is most definitely not literally true, although it is stuffed full with truths and lessons via allegories and tales that are shared by all the world's bona fide religions. No one can truly dispute that the Bible is not one of the mankind's literary treasures, but it's not the only one, not simplistically The One. Bible is literally true? Fuck no.

The New Testament, based on love and discovery of the True Self (the Arisen One) emerging the death (Crucifixion) of the false self, must take precedence over the Old Testament and must temper the harshness and violence of the Old Testament. In fact, I think the New Testament can stand independently on its own, with the Old Testament serving as historical curiosity of the Old Thinking.

However, many "Christians" of today, mean-spirited, smug, self-satisfied, narrow-minded, in-your-face, vindictive, full of hubris and pride that their Way is the Only Way, seem to spend an exorbiant amout of time and energy on the Old Testament as their primary guide and political/financial/social manifesto, with the core messages of Christ in the New Testament in the back seat.

[clambake]

Boutons, you're going to call out all the "christians" who will refuse to "love thy neighbor" or "turn the other cheek".

[Cant_Be_Faded]

religion is for fags

[mikejones99]

God and the bible are FICTION

[boutons_]

Clambake, am I?
how do you know?
did you minister reveal that to you?

[theroc5]

i believe its 100 percent true, the original translation any way. everything that it has predicted has come true, never has it been wrong. just look at the times we live in and what it talks about in the end of times. Iran Syria Kings from east(china/india).
Evolution has been proven time and time again, it has been false along with the scientist, time and time over.
Religion i do not like, its a cult but Jesus is not religion...i love JESUS!
in encourage all of yall to visit these two sites...in order
1.http://www.finalfrontier.org.uk/creation.htm
2.raptureready.com(it also has boards you can go on and ask questions, and those people are very smart)

[clambake]

I meant you would be calling-out the "smug, mean spirited, narrow minded, in your face, vindictive christians that any problem they have they just put their fist in" christians.

[boutons_]

calling them out would do no good.

they are impervious to conflicting information.

they can do whatever they want,
believe whatever they want,
hustle and shuck as many millions of suckers as they want,
program as many robot children as they want,
teach whatever they want in their private schools.

but when they start pushing their bullshit Geneis beliefs as hard science into public schools, or try to conflate the secular US govt with their cult religions, I'm adamantly opposed.

[clambake]

You cannot expect them to understand the word "science". It does not exist on their "world is flat".

[smeagol]

This thread asks the question if you believe the Bible in literal terms.

And I responded I didn't. What else do you want from me, Mr Peabody II?

[Oh, Gee!!]

I know Peabody, and Clambake is no Peabody.

[clambake]

Sorry smeagol. I misunderstood your intent. (who's peabody)?

[Phenomanul]

calling them out would do no good.

They are impervious to conflicting information.

they can do whatever they want,
believe whatever they want,
hustle and shuck as many millions of suckers as they want,
program as many robot children as they want,
teach whatever they want in their private schools.

but when they start pushing their bullshit Geneis beliefs as hard science into public schools, or try to conflate the secular US govt with their cult religions, I'm adamantly opposed.

:rolleyes

:spin Got ya!! What did you expect to see when you saw I had posted in this thread... A big thesis postulating that the mathematical probability of evolving the logical reasoning you now use against your Creator is zero....

You know where I stand... no need to argue about it further... your hate blinds you. Peace boutons_.

P.S. was that smug enough? :lol

[clambake]

Why do you call it hate. Maybe religion conjures up thoughts of priest molesting little children under the curtain of god. Maybe it leads the mind to see the faces of,,,,,,,oh, swaggert, roberts, baker. But, if you just send me $500, I will pray for you.

[exstatic]

Stole this from another site...but it made me LOL


JUDAISM -
So there are these people running around for a hell of a long time, right? Pretty sure they were called Hebrews, but it was so long ago, they really can't remember any more. They were a wacky group back in the day, 'cause they had this notion that there was only one God. In their holy text called The "Torah," it kinda named this all powerful dude, but it was all a buncha consonants - JHVH or something. Maybe Yahweh. Anyhow, the poor Jews had a favorite (huh?) pastime, and was getting persecuted. Moses was this awesome Disney character and he asked his god do a whole lotta nasty shit to the Egyptians so they could bolt. It worked, but when they were roaming the desert, Moses lost most of them somehow on the way to the Promised Land. That sucked. But Moses snagged the Ten Commandments, so props to him. The still get yelled at every few hundred years when idiots get bored and their Promised Land is a war zone. Poor Jews.

Jews have all kinds of traditions and rituals that nobody understands. The men wear little hats called "Yamukas" and some of them have weird curly side burns. There's a ton of stuff they won't eat, and most have never had a cheeseburger, 'cause they won't mix dairy and meat. (That's sad.) They have "Bar/Batmitvah's" for their kids when they hit puberty which is a big ass reason to party. Big, mutli-wick candles are lit at Christmas time, but they have, like, 8 days to celebrate or something.


CHRISTIANITY -
The Jews were hangin' out, being groovy and what-not. Then this dude said, "I'm the son of god and stuff." His mom was a different Madonna than the one who sang "Like A Prayer," and this Jesus fellow got a crew together and went around teaching and doing miracles. One of his buddies sold him out for a quick fix of smack and Jesus gets nailed to a cross. Just to show off, he returns from the dead a few days later and goes "PWNED!" All of his followers think the Jews had a good thing with the Torah, but decide it's just "The Old Testament." They make a new one, too, all about the not-so-dead son of god. Within a few years, everybody is a freakin' Christian because it's trendy. Then they all start to argue over how to read a book and run a church. Now we have 18 billion different types of Christians. Hooray.

Christians celebrate the birth of their Savior, which makes sense, and also his death/rebirth, which is a little spooky. They say it's cause he "died for our sins," but I don't remember that particular afternoon. There are so many off-shoots and side-cults based on Christianity now, it's a bit ridiculous. They really like those Ten Commandments, but only when they are convenient. A lot of them like to sing, but not very well. They are very good, however, at murdering people of other religions... and their own.


ISLAM -
And now we have Jews and Christians. Some of these folks have traveled into Persia where they still worship ancient Arabian gods. Everything's a big jumbly mess until this Muhammad chap steps up. God comes to him and says, "Jews are nice, and Jesus rocked and all, but I have a better idea for a book. Listen up!" God directly gives his words to Muhammad who writes this all down in the "Qur'an." He leaves Mecca, goes to Medina and fights a whole bunch. In the end, he was kinda pissy with the Jews and the Christians. Muslims all believe the Qur'an to be the literal word of Allah, but Gabriel had a hand in it, too. There are a number of different kinds of Muslims, but according to Fox News, there is only Sunni and Shiite and they're both bad.

Muslims pray constantly, always facing towards Mecca. This incessant prayer gets in their way of doing their best not to eat pork. (Although beef hotdogs are a-okay!) A good portion of the devoted men don't bother cutting their hair, and frequently wrap towels upon their heads because it is very hot in the desert. Let's be honest, Islam is the kid brother to Christianity who is chasing Judaism going "Me too, me too! Don't forget the Pagans!"



HINDUISM -
These are the Indians with the "Dot," not the "Feathers." They've been around a long ass time, probably longer than those Jews over there. Their Trinity is all about three gods as one. "Brahma the Creator" , "Vishnu the Preserver" and "Shiva the Destroyer." You can read all about their adventures, as well as Krishna, Rama, Kali and thirteen gazillion other deities in the holy book, the "Bhagavad-Gita." The world was hatched from an egg, and there's an elephant involved somewhere. Damn elephants. Oh, and they have this point system, like in RPG's but slightly more life-altering called Karma. And "Dharma" is not just that hot chick from that shitty sit-com. Om!

Hindu people love their damn cows, and won't eat them. They also used to have a very rigid caste system, which made everybody secretly miserable except the rich princes and the Untouchables. Thanks to the "Kama Sutra" all their sexy, kinky shit is world wide now. There was this little guy who was always old, and his name was Mohandas. He changed things for the better and is perhaps synonomous with contemporary thought entering into India. Yeah, Gandhi was kick ass in his loin cloth...


BUDDHISM -
Once upon a time, there was this Hindu Prince whose dad was way overprotective. He didn't want his son seeing any nasty shit, so he always kept the kid free of worldly pain. This plan failed. The kid grew up, ditched his wife, sat under a lotus tree for a long time in contemplation and walked away as the Buddha. He strolled around and told everybody that there biggest problem was that they "wanted," and this caused suffering. Everything was suffering to this dude. But he would tell a bunch of neat-o riddles that you would try and think about to reach "Zen," and things could get better. All in all, it sucks to be alive.

The Buddha died and everybody was super sad, but he pops up again. The Dali Lama runs around as the reincarnation of the old dude after meeting Kurt Cobain in Nirvana or something. They used to teach about the "Eight-fold Path" and the tantric ways in Tibet, but the Chinese drove them all out. 'Cause ya know those wily Buddhists, they cause so much trouble, setting themselves on fire in silent protest.



TAOISM -
So this crazy old guy lived out in the woods, and his name was Lao Tzu. He didn't bother anybody, but people always came to him with questions since the dude was so old (which translates into wise.) Even the local Prince would bother him for advice ever now and again, and Lao Tzu would just sigh and tell these fucks the best ideas he had. One day, he hears the Prince is going to do something stupid, so he actually leaves the woods and goes to the castle. The Prince tells Lao Tzu to shove off. Lao Tzu gives mankind the middle finger, gets on the back of a giant water buffalo and proceeds to ride off into the sunset. At the gate, a soldier begs him not to leave. Lao Tzu goes and sits under a tree with his buffalo, writes the "Tao Te Ching" in a few days, hands in to guard and bails out. The End.

Lao Tzu never preached a word of his religion/philosophy, so no one is sure what he really wanted. The Tao is "The Way" and is never fully explained, but is some kind of all powerful energy in everything that flows at all times. Okay. He came up with the concepts of the "Yin" and "Yang" along with the symbol that a bunch of white surfers would eventually steal. It's all about balance and big time mystical mumbo-jumbo of the like. The "I Ching" figures in here as well somehow...



CONFUCIANISM -
Confucius was a bastard. He pretty much spent all his time writing about how he "thought" people ought to act in polite society and seeking out a job with any Prince dumb enough to employ him. His Five Classics (Wu Ching) and Four Books (Ssu Shu) are nothing but civil service examples. Much more a philosophy than a religion, he must be thrilled that there are temples erected in his honor. Confucius met Loa Tzu once, actually. He was terrified of the old Taoist Master and likened him to a "Dragon." Pussy.

His teachings were big throughout the educational system of China for centuries. He came up with the "Golden Rule" on his own and generally wagged his finger at everybody, telling them to behave. There has been an unspoken feud between Confucianism and Taoism for centuries, because they sprung up at the same time and they are so drastically different. However, because of those differences, they are also able to co-exist together relatively peacefully. Americans came to know Confucius riddles through the aid of cookies served at Chinese restaurants. Ever notice how the notes have gone downhill recently?



OTHER STUFF -
There are other major world religions out there as well. Jainism, Shintoism, Sikhism, and Zoroastorism are some, but let's be honest... no one cares. There are Wiccans, of course, but they are a silly people. There's a bunch of semi-dead faiths floating around the Americas, but not enough people practice them to be recognize here. Plus I can't spell, let alone pronounce any of that Aztec shit. And Satanists, well... they're just bored.


If you were to teach a one day course in comparative religions, surfer speak aside, this isn't bad.

One of his buddies sold him out for a quick fix of smack and Jesus gets nailed to a cross. Just to show off, he returns from the dead a few days later and goes "PWNED!"
I almost spit Coke on my monitor when I read the above. :lol

[billboardbill]

Yes I do believe in the Bible. If God can create the world, why would you think he could not or would not protect his word.

[scott]

People should believe in whatever makes them comfortable. Just don't teach it in a public school or use the government to promote it, and I'm happy.

[exstatic]

People should believe in whatever makes them comfortable. Just don't teach it in a public school or use the government to promote it, and I'm happy.
They can't help it because one of their tenets is to convert everyone, kill them, or die trying.

[Guru of Nothing]

Every word true! I am not sure

Maybe if you spent a little more time watching Fox News - You'd know.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I think people should interpret literally only the parts of the bible that are supported by empirical data, otherwise just take it for what it is, a remarkable work of fiction.

[RealEstateDude]

http://www.godspeaks.com/images/ATB/billboards/one_nation_under_me.gif

I look at the bible as a spiritual, symbolic, and historical book. You can take it literally if you study it in it's original language only some of the time, the rest of the time you have to look at it's spiritual and symbolic connotations. I don't support "organized" religion, it's a mask for political power...

[smeagol]

I think people should interpret literally only the parts of the bible that are supported by empirical data, otherwise just take it for what it is, a remarkable work of fiction.
Again, a work of fiction that billions of "gullible" people believe is true or partially true, invented by 12 ignorant fishermen in Palestine 2000 years ago.

Something does not add up.

[Extra Stout]

Define "literal." By culturally Western human standards? No.

[Phenomanul]

People should believe in whatever makes them comfortable. Just don't teach it in a public school or use the government to promote it, and I'm happy.


Then give me back my taxes.... or don't expect me to support the public school system that does a crappy job to begin with... where are the higher math, and physics teachers??? Why is there more emphasis being placed on sports in our high schools?? --- follow the money trail and how resources are being managed...

Why is every other country surpassing our academic standards??? Sadly students don't care anymore... they're more concerned about trivialities such as popularity or who is the first to own a car... or drink alcoholic beverages.... Many parents don't care anymore either...

So then you get parents that do want their children growing with some sense of moral fabric and what does the liberal media do?? Slam them for bigoted interference... right.. :rolleyes

Granted there are exceptions on both sides... the point being this problem is more complicated than it seems...

[Phenomanul]

I think people should interpret literally only the parts of the bible that are supported by empirical data, otherwise just take it for what it is, a remarkable work of fiction.


How is this for empirical data?

1+1+1 = 1

or

1x1x1 = 3

Are they backwards.... or is there a subtle message there.... hmmmmm...

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Again, a work of fiction that billions of "gullible" people believe is true or partially true, invented by 12 ignorant fishermen in Palestine 2000 years ago.

Something does not add up.
http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif what doesn't add up? that the masses are gullible? yes, because history hasn't shown us enough of that, right?

and by the way, we're not in 6th grade anymore. The "everybody is doing it, why won't you" cop out doesn't apply here. The fact that billions believe it doesn't make it the truth. In fact, more people believe in Buddhism than Christianity so by your reasoning I suppose we should be praying to Buda.

I clearly stated that I believed everything in the bible that is not supported by solid evidence is fiction. Show me how that statement is false and then we can discuss some more.

[Phenomanul]

uh oh here we go

hegamboa's here.

:smchode:


It is Memorial Day Weekend.... Let's not argue. :spin

[JoeChalupa]

It is called faith. I don't care if some think religion if for fags or what anybody else thinks. My faith is rock solid.

Carry on.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Then give me back my taxes.... or don't expect me to support the public school system that does a crappy job to begin with... where are the higher math, and physics teachers??? Why is there more emphasis being placed on sports in our high schools?? --- follow the money trail and how resources are being managed...

Why is every other country surpassing our academic standards??? Sadly students don't care anymore... they're more concerned about trivialities such as popularity or who is the first to own a car... or drink alcoholic beverages.... Many parents don't care anymore either...

So then you get parents that do want their children growing with some sense of moral fabric and what does the liberal media do?? Slam them for bigoted interference... right.. :rolleyes

Granted there are exceptions on both sides... the point being this problem is more complicated than it seems...
What does implementing "intelligent design" as a science have anything to do with moral fabric??

[Phenomanul]

It is called faith. I don't care if some think religion if for fags or what anybody else thinks. My faith is rock solid.

Carry on.


:tu

The problem for those without faith, or belief in a higher being, is that faith itself is not measureable... tangible... or palpable....

To them it is illogical, primitive, and unnecessary... Whereas to me it is fundamentally essential, nourishing, and compels me do be a better person, son, co-worker, teacher, and citizen. Why does that bother them? Because our all-allowing utilitarian society abhors the thought that there is no relativism to right and wrong...

I don't tell others what to do. But the mere fact that the tenets of my beliefs denounce certain acts irritates them to no end.

Pretty soon, things that most would consider as a 'wrong' today will be allowed in our future... why? Because it's all relativistic...

Use to be that sex out of the confines of marriage was considered a wrong...
Today it is the norm...

Use to be that exploitation of the weak was looked down upon...
Today we murder millions of unborn children without remorse... and use political boundaries to denigrate other human beings...

Perhaps tomorrow someone will push for the rights of pedophiles...
And they will be able to wed your 12 year old daughters and sons...
However silly or far-fetched as that may sound... for the people of tomorrow we might be the ones who were 'primitive thinkers'... after all, moral relatisvism is an inherent off-shoot of liberal progressive thinking... most people just don't realize it.

[Phenomanul]

What does implementing "intelligent design" as a science have anything to do with moral fabric??


That perhaps people with a genuine belief that their life has been instilled with a GOD given purpose... are also likely to believe in 'Intelligent Design'... and likely to believe that they will be held accountable for their actions... they are less likely to end up in jail or be a drag on our society.

The key word being genuine.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

That perhaps people with a genuine belief that their life has been instilled with a GOD given purpose... are also likely to believe in 'Intelligent Design'... and likely to believe that they will be held accountable for their actions... they are less likely to end up in jail or be a drag on our society.

The key word being genuine. I see, so you're basically saying that people who don't believe in God are more likely to commit a crime and end up in jail, right?

care to show some data supporting that claim?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

:tu

The problem for those without faith, or belief in a higher being, is that faith itself is not measureable... tangible... or palpable....

To them it is illogical, primitive, and unnecessary... Whereas to me it is fundamentally essential, nourishing, and compels me do be a better person, son, co-worker, teacher, and citizen. Why does that bother them? Because our all-allowing utilitarian society abhors the thought that there is no relativism to right and wrong...

I don't tell others what to do. But the mere fact that the tenets of my beliefs denounce certain acts irritates them to no end. is that right? does it compel you to be a better person. That is great. Good for you. It is still religion, just YOUR belief. Don't try to sell it as science, because its not, and it won't be until conclusively proven otherwise. You act like you've been deprived of some right. http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

You need religion to be a better man. Other people need other things. Who's right and who's wrong?



Pretty soon, things that most would consider as a 'wrong' today will be allowed in our future... why? Because it's all relativistic...

Use to be that sex out of the confines of marriage was considered a wrong...
Today it is the norm...

Use to be that exploitation of the weak was looked down upon...
Today we murder millions of unborn children without remorse... and use political boundaries to denigrate other human beings...

Perhaps tomorrow someone will push for the rights of pedophiles...
And they will be able to wed your 12 year old daughters and sons...
However silly or far-fetched as that may sound... for the people of tomorrow we might be the ones who were 'primitive thinkers'... after all, moral relatisvism is an inherent off-shoot of liberal progressive thinking... most people just don't realize it. How's your shoulder after that reach? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

[Phenomanul]

I see, so you're basically saying that people who don't believe in God are more likely to commit a crime and end up in jail, right?

care to show some data supporting that claim?


It's about as quantifiable as the ability to quantify someone's genuineness to their beliefs...

But some food for thought...

If you followed the Ten Commandments to the letter would that keep you out of jail?

[JoeChalupa]

I really don't care if anyone believes in religion or not. It is a personal choice. I don't try to convert anyone or push my faith on anyone.

What ever works for you is fine by me.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

It's about as quantifiable as the ability to quantify someone's genuineness to their beliefs...

But some food for thought...

I you followed the Ten Commandments to the letter would that keep you out of jail?
I would imagine it would. More importantly, is it necesary for people to follow the Ten commandments to the letter in order for them to not end up in jail?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I really don't care if anyone believes in religion or not. It is a personal choice. I don't try to convert anyone or push my faith on anyone.

What ever works for you is fine by me.
I respect your position

[JoeChalupa]

I respect your position

As I do yours. :tu

[Phenomanul]

is that right? does it compel you to be a better person. That is great. Good for you. It is still religion, just YOUR belief. Don't try to sell it as science, because its not, and it won't be until conclusively proven otherwise. You act like you've been deprived of some right. http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

My religious beliefs have scientific implications... but never have I tried to pass them on as Science...




You need religion to be a better man. Other people need other things. Who's right and who's wrong?

What human decides what is wrong and what is right???? GOD is the one who has set the standard. If you look closer at the Bible, the book you call a work of fiction... you will find that standard of living.

You do what you will... to each their own... I know I am held accountable by GOD before being held accountable by any other authoritative designee on earth.




How's your shoulder after that reach? http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

For all your talk of empirical data you can't see an extrapolation when you see one. Yes, we can most definately agree that pedophilia is a horrible illness. But your grandchildren might be the ones thinking you were a primitive thinker 25 years down the road. It's not that implausible... at the rate things are going.

[Phenomanul]

I would imagine it would. More importantly, is it necesary for people to follow the Ten commandments to the letter in order for them to not end up in jail?


No, but why risk walking on the edge???

And therein lies the problem... people will always try to get away with as much as they possibly can.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No, but why risk walking on the edge???

And therein lies the problem... people will always try to get away with as much as they possibly can.
do you honestly believe that people are born criminals, and only the teaching of the "Ten Commandments" is going to prevent them from ending up in prison?

That's a rather grim way to look at society, don't you think?

[angel_luv]

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive any randomness.

I just wanted to say that the Bible is literally true.

[jochhejaam]

I haven't read this whole thread so forgive any randomness.

I just wanted to say that the Bible is literally true.
Your randomness is welcome and your declaration of faith is respected and appreciated.

[smeagol]

what doesn't add up? that the masses are gullible? yes, because history hasn't shown us enough of that, right?

Show me another example in history of a book of fiction that is believed to be true by billions of people.


and by the way, we're not in 6th grade anymore. The "everybody is doing it, why won't you" cop out doesn't apply here. The fact that billions believe it doesn't make it the truth.

I never said this is the only reason to believe in the Bible. But if you add this one to many others, the picture becomes that more compelling. Neverhteless, at the end of the day everything boils down to Faith.


In fact, more people believe in Buddhism than Christianity so by your reasoning I suppose we should be praying to Buda.

No because my point was not the only reason.


I clearly stated that I believed everything in the bible that is not supported by solid evidence is fiction. Show me how that statement is false and then we can discuss some more.


I can't because you have no Faith.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I can't because you have no Faith.
thank you. You just proved my point several times over

[Guru of Nothing]

If you followed the Ten Commandments to the letter would that keep you out of jail?

Do you follow ten commandments to THE letter?

If I were a Christian, and I followed the ten commandments to the letter, I'd be extraordinarily rare - to the point I'd feel, well, un-Christian.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

I bet this has already been brought up, but how can anyone believe the english translated version of the bible is literally, word for word true (I assume that's what we're talking about, the english version, since this is the US)?

Even if you believe somehow, that the original version (in whatever language it first appeared in, sorry I'm quite ignorant in these matters) was literally the word of God, 100% true, clearly it wasn't translated by God, so how can you be sure that the new version is all true?

[Guru of Nothing]

I bet this has already been brought up, but how can anyone believe the english translated version of the bible is literally, word for word true (I assume that's what we're talking about, the english version, since this is the US)?

Even if you believe somehow, that the original version (in whatever language it first appeared in, sorry I'm quite ignorant in these matters) was literally the word of God, 100% true, clearly it wasn't translated by God, so how can you be sure that the new version is all true?

Oh to be an everlasting retroactive fly on the wall.

[JoeChalupa]

Faith.

[scott]

Then give me back my taxes.... or don't expect me to support the public school system that does a crappy job to begin with... where are the higher math, and physics teachers??? Why is there more emphasis being placed on sports in our high schools?? --- follow the money trail and how resources are being managed...

Why is every other country surpassing our academic standards??? Sadly students don't care anymore... they're more concerned about trivialities such as popularity or who is the first to own a car... or drink alcoholic beverages.... Many parents don't care anymore either...

So then you get parents that do want their children growing with some sense of moral fabric and what does the liberal media do?? Slam them for bigoted interference... right.. :rolleyes

Granted there are exceptions on both sides... the point being this problem is more complicated than it seems...

If you have read any of my posts on the topic of education, you will see that I am a strong proponent of reform. Our schools are in terrible shape. I don't see what this has to do with the topic of keeping religion out of schools though. Are you proposing that teaching that the bible is literally true (or any other religious belief) will somehow produce a bunch of brilliant students?

These parents you are talking about who want their children growing up with some sense of moral fabric - why is it the schools job to do that? Maybe the problem isn't that schools aren't teaching this - but that these parents are relying on the schools to do it instead of taking it into their own hands on their own time like, you know, a good parent would.

[scott]

I see, so you're basically saying that people who don't believe in God are more likely to commit a crime and end up in jail, right?

care to show some data supporting that claim?


It's about as quantifiable as the ability to quantify someone's genuineness to their beliefs...

But some food for thought...

If you followed the Ten Commandments to the letter would that keep you out of jail?

Actually, I've provided the evidence in this forum before and been blasted because some people don't like the results. You may have a different definition of what it means to be a Christian, but I define it as believing that Jesus is the son of God and savior of mankind. Now, whether someone is a "good" Christian or lives a life Jesus would approve is another question. But those who fit my definition of Christians are 37 times more likely to be incarcerated than atheists. So obviously, just believing that Jesus is the savior is not enough. I don't believe that teaching Intelligent Design or any other religious (in this case Christian but it could be any religion) theory in school does anything but get people to believe that Jesus is the savior. As the data shows, this doesn't do much for getting people to live a "good" lifestyle.

The myth of moral-less atheists running around and causing havoc is just that - a myth. The truth is that atheists are just as capable (and in fact just as likely) of living a moral lifestyle as anyone. Believing in God - in and of itself - does nothing to encourage morality.

With that said, I applaud the efforts of all religions, because they all have a common goal: to instill their followers with a sense of ethics. But this should be done at church and at home, not at school or any other public institution. Some people (like myself) don't need these religions to live a moral lifestyle. As of yet, I've yet to murder, rape, pillage, steal or any of the other sins that religion teaches us to avoid. And I did it all on my own sense, not divine inspiration.

[scott]

Show me another example in history of a book of fiction that is believed to be true by billions of people.

smeagol, do you believe the Koran is literally true?

[exstatic]

smeagol, do you believe the Koran is literally true?
Oh, snap. :lol:rollin

[jochhejaam]

smeagol, do you believe the Koran is literally true?
Is there a difference between the billions that freely believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and those billions that are brainwashed from birth with the koran and dare not disavow it under the penalty of execution?

[exstatic]

Is there a difference between the billions that freely believe the Bible is the inspired word of God and those billions that are brainwashed from birth with the koran and dare not disavow it under the penalty of execution?
Of course. They are brainwashed but Christian kids believe freely. Sigh.

[jochhejaam]

Of course. They are brainwashed but Christian kids believe freely. Sigh.
Even in Parochial and Christian schools the students are not forced to believe, the information is presented to them and the choice to believe or not is made freely on an individual basis. No threats of execution if they don't become adherents as far as I know.

[turambar85]

Joch...being forced to believe something is more likely to cause large factions and springs of dissent than something people ask to believe freely. That is a bogus argument. The billions who believe the koran truly believe it...fear of something can not make you believe it...at best it can make you pretend to believe. Marijuana is illegal...but I believe it is ok, but pretend I do not. lol. Also...christian children are indoctrinated just the same from birth. Many are baptised or whatever before they can speak. They are made members of the church before they can wipe their own asses. And they are taught that the world revolves around the Bible, and to not believe sends you to hell....thats far worse than saying if you dont believe you will be executed. You can do better than that...

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=turambar85]Joch...being forced to believe something is more likely to cause large factions and springs of dissent than something people ask to believe freely. That is a bogus argument. The billions who believe the koran truly believe it...fear of something can not make you believe it...at best it can make you pretend to believe. Also...christian children are indoctrinated just the same from birth.
Where talking about brainwashing at an early age so where is the freedom to believe? Fear is a great motivator and for that small number of Muslims who are able to free their minds from the forceable indocrination they received from birth they then have the option of "pretending" or facing the same fate as Salmon Rusdie, i.e., a fatwa calling for their assassination.
It's at best naive to believe that the Christian faith imposes this type of control over those they wish to be disciples of Christ.





Many are baptised or whatever before they can speak.
Sprinkling water on a newborn is not a form of brainwashing.





They are made members of the church before they can wipe their own asses.
My Church (AG) doesn't allow membership until you're 18 after voluntarily going through classes that present the doctrines adhered to.






And they are taught that the world revolves around the Bible, and to not believe sends you to hell....thats far worse than saying if you dont believe you will be executed.
Brainwashing and threats are worse than the freedom to believe and come to your own conclusions? You may feel that way but I don't believe a majority of people would agree with that notion.






You can do better than that
My belief is that you can too.

[turambar85]

...not even worth the time it takes to quote you and respond. It seems likely that you are so well versed in the dogma of your religion, by your own choice, of course, that you wouldn't benefit from a reply anyway.

[jochhejaam]

...not even worth the time it takes to quote you and respond. It seems likely that you are so well versed in the dogma of your religion, by your own choice, of course, that you wouldn't benefit from a reply anyway.
To paraphrase what you just said; "I'm in way over my head and I am unable to formulate an intelligent response".

[turambar85]

An intelligent response can only be made to an intelligent statement. You said nothing or relevance to refute anything which I had said, so to say anything further would have simply been overkill.

[jochhejaam]

An intelligent response can only be made to an intelligent statement. You said nothing or relevance to refute anything which I had said, so to say anything further would have simply been overkill.
Intelligence can be conveyed at any time if you're qualified to reply intelligently. On the other hand ignorant and dismissive responses can be made to factual statements as was the case with your recent reply.

Speaking of a lack of intelligence in a post, this post brings to two the total number of replies you have submitted since noting that my post was "not even worth the time it takes to quote you and respond".

Keep contradicting yourself by responding and I'll keep track of your total number of contradictions for you.

Two and counting...

[Extra Stout]

Joch...being forced to believe something is more likely to cause large factions and springs of dissent than something people ask to believe freely.
In a free society. That does not apply to societies where dissent is crushed systematically.


The billions who believe the koran truly believe it...fear of something can not make you believe it...at best it can make you pretend to believe.
Because of course you surveyed the 1+ billion Muslims and gauged the authenticity of their faith.


Also...christian children are indoctrinated just the same from birth. Many are baptised or whatever before they can speak. They are made members of the church before they can wipe their own asses. And they are taught that the world revolves around the Bible, and to not believe sends you to hell....thats far worse than saying if you dont believe you will be executed. You can do better than that...
I think you've heavily misrepresented the presentation of the gospel to young people within the church. I don't think you know much at all about the church and probably should refrain from making arguments therein without educating yourself a good bit more.

[scott]

In a free society. That does not apply to societies where dissent is crushed systematically.

You mean like ones where I can post statistical evidence than believers in Jesus Christ are 37 times more likely to be incarcerated than atheists are accused of being immoral heathens who are out to distroy the faith of Christians? Or ones where no non-Christian could ever hold a significant political office because they would be accused of being a godless heathen? Make no mistake about it, to a lot of people in America (Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists alike), Religious Freedom only applies to people of their own faith.


Because of course you surveyed the 1+ billion Muslims and gauged the authenticity of their faith.

Did smeagol survey the billions of Christians he refered to to gauge the authenticity of their faith?


I think you've heavily misrepresented the presentation of the gospel to young people within the church. I don't think you know much at all about the church and probably should refrain from making arguments therein without educating yourself a good bit more.

Luckily, I am rather "educated" in the Church (at least the Catholic Church) and I must say that telling a bunch of 7 year olds that the failure to believe in Jesus Christ as savior will result in eternal damnation is fairly tantamount to indoctrination. Call me crazy.

[TreeWhisperer]

My God, perhaps you two should pray for wisdom. 1st, Joch, I said I wouldn't waste time responding to what you had said, meaning that what you said could only be answered in one sentence or 20 pages. It wasn't worth the time to get in depth. 2nd, extrastout, you have x-rays disease which causes you to make stupid assumptions. I have spent my entire life,from birth, in church, and my grandfather is a pastor. I have been in or around the church my entire life, so ask before making any other assumptions.

Now, I look forward to getting an intelligent, factually based reply which is not based on assumptions about myself, or under-informed "opinions" such as that Muslims do not believe their religion, but are forced under pain of death to pretend that they do. Well, I guess they are so afraid of being killed that they willingly die instead. Rational explanation.

I will keep track of every post you make in which you fail to make a logical point. I think youre at 3 and counting.

[turambar85]

That last post was meant to be my me, and not tree. I forgot to sign out of her account.

[nbascribe]

Now this is exactly what Ron Howard wants about the Davinci Code: TRUE DEBATE AMONGST A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO CAN'T AGREE ON SHIT!! LOL

[xrayzebra]

That last post was meant to be my me, and not tree. I forgot to sign out of her account.


You would think that people of your intelligence would know how to sign
in and out of forums. A little clue, look in upper right hand corner of the
page when posting and it shows who you are.

The teach that at the computer lab at the old folks home. :lol

[Extra Stout]

You mean like ones where I can post statistical evidence than believers in Jesus Christ are 37 times more likely to be incarcerated than atheists are accused of being immoral heathens who are out to distroy the faith of Christians? Or ones where no non-Christian could ever hold a significant political office because they would be accused of being a godless heathen? Make no mistake about it, to a lot of people in America (Christians, Jews, Muslims and atheists alike), Religious Freedom only applies to people of their own faith.
In America, if one speaks out against Christianity, some people might call you names and hurt your feelings. In Afghanistan, if one speaks out against Islam, or converts to Christianity they get a death sentence which only gets vacated due to intense international pressure, after which they need asylum to another country in order to avoid being lynched.

Clearly, that is exactly the same.


Did smeagol survey the billions of Christians he refered to to gauge the authenticity of their faith?
Was I arguing on his behalf?


Luckily, I am rather "educated" in the Church (at least the Catholic Church) and I must say that telling a bunch of 7 year olds that the failure to believe in Jesus Christ as savior will result in eternal damnation is fairly tantamount to indoctrination. Call me crazy.
And yet children leave the faith of their parents all the time. In a Muslim country, this results is disownment, and as discussed above, exile or death. In the U.S., Momma maybe gets disappointed in you. How oppressive.

[scott]

In America, if one speaks out against Christianity, some people might call you names and hurt your feelings. In Afghanistan, if one speaks out against Islam, or converts to Christianity they get a death sentence which only gets vacated due to intense international pressure, after which they need asylum to another country in order to avoid being lynched.

Clearly, that is exactly the same.


And clearly, Afghanistan is representitive of the entire Muslim world.


Was I arguing on his behalf?

You sure did find it necessary to respond to a statement that was spurred by one of smeagol's comments, so you tell me.

But whatever - the typical Christian interventionist arguement has already been played:

"Christianity prevents all crime. What about those Christians in jail? Not really Christians.

Christians are Christians by choice. Every follower of every other religion is so by force.

The lack of religion in school is the biggest problem facing America, so long as that religion is called Christianity."

The majority of Christians who aren't fixated on indoctrinating the world with their beliefs are done a major disservice by the ones who use logically obsurd and blatantly hypocritical arguements to further their positions. But the bible says it, and people believe in the bible, so it must be true.

[Extra Stout]

My God, perhaps you two should pray for wisdom. 1st, Joch, I said I wouldn't waste time responding to what you had said, meaning that what you said could only be answered in one sentence or 20 pages. It wasn't worth the time to get in depth. 2nd, extrastout, you have x-rays disease which causes you to make stupid assumptions. I have spent my entire life,from birth, in church, and my grandfather is a pastor. I have been in or around the church my entire life, so ask before making any other assumptions.
Neither you nor joch have any idea how many professing Christians or Muslims truly believe in their faith. Maybe it's more in one than in the other. Maybe it's not. Joch argues without grounds that Christians follow freely while Muslims are coerced. You argue that the billions (sic) of Muslims are legitimately faithful. How do either of you know that?

I'm not aware of any branches of Christianity where children get full membership regardless of whether they want it. I know of ones where young people have to profess their faith of their own volition (you could argue whether an 8-year-old really understands what he is professing; nevertheless, it is still voluntary). I know of ones where young people must go through confirmation so that they have an understanding of the faith they would be professing. Where is this church to which you refer that is conscripting child members?

Your notion that the psychological pressure of the teaching about hell somehow is more manipulative than the sharp point of a knife in keeping followers in line does not ring true. People leave the faith of their fathers in this country all the time. The consequences of that here are mild. There are some heavily Roman Catholic countries where the ostracism is worse. But in Muslim countries, families disown apostates, and apostates are subject to death.

One key difference between Islam and Christianity is how they treat the secular world. The Christian Bible makes no claims upon how government or the market or society is to be run, save for the ethical requirements of believers within those venues. (Of course, this differs from the stentorian dictates laid out for Israel in Old Testament. But we aren't professing tabernacle Judaism here). The Koran, on the other hand, lays out exactly how the government, economy, society, and everyday life are supposed to be conducted. So many of the Muslim lands are run as theocracies under Shari'a law. There is no Christian equivalent to Shari'a law.

I would suggest that it is significantly more difficult, having been born into a society where every aspect of life falls under the auspices of the dominant religion, to abandon that religion, even if one's doubts about that faith might make practice thereof merely perfunctory, than it is to abandon a majority religion in a secular society with diverse cultural influences.

[scott]

Neither you nor joch have any idea how many professing Christians or Muslims truly believe in their faith. Maybe it's more in one than in the other. Maybe it's not. Joch argues without grounds that Christians follow freely while Muslims are coerced. You argue that the billions (sic) of Muslims are legitimately faithful. How do either of you know that?

I'm not aware of any branches of Christianity where children get full membership regardless of whether they want it. I know of ones where young people have to profess their faith of their own volition (you could argue whether an 8-year-old really understands what he is professing; nevertheless, it is still voluntary). I know of ones where young people must go through confirmation so that they have an understanding of the faith they would be professing. Where is this church to which you refer that is conscripting child members?

Your notion that the psychological pressure of the teaching about hell somehow is more manipulative than the sharp point of a knife in keeping followers in line does not ring true. People leave the faith of their fathers in this country all the time. The consequences of that here are mild. There are some heavily Roman Catholic countries where the ostracism is worse. But in Muslim countries, families disown apostates, and apostates are subject to death.

One key difference between Islam and Christianity is how they treat the secular world. The Christian Bible makes no claims upon how government or the market or society is to be run, save for the ethical requirements of believers within those venues. (Of course, this differs from the stentorian dictates laid out for Israel in Old Testament. But we aren't professing tabernacle Judaism here). The Koran, on the other hand, lays out exactly how the government, economy, society, and everyday life are supposed to be conducted. So many of the Muslim lands are run as theocracies under Shari'a law. There is no Christian equivalent to Shari'a law.

I would suggest that it is significantly more difficult, having been born into a society where every aspect of life falls under the auspices of the dominant religion, to abandon that religion, even if one's doubts about that faith might make practice thereof merely perfunctory, than it is to abandon a majority religion in a secular society with diverse cultural influences.

Nice explanation.

The problem I see with a minority of Christians is that they would like to see the US as a Christian nation with Christianity as the national religion. Yet they decry (rightfully so) Muslim nations on the other side of the world. Their rational is "but Christianity is a just religion" as if that mattered at all.

[King]

This post is too far along for me to get involved in it, but I just wanted to make one point. When people talk about the burning bush or snake, or any other seemingly illogical occurences, it doesn't discount it. Because the God that we choose to believe in isn't of a human form. The things that we believe He can and has done, aren't logical by human standards.

He wasn't just a man. It wasn't just any guy out there doing those things. That's why it's explainable. If you're trying to put human standards on Him, you won't believe any of it to be true. But, I don't think any of us ever believed him to be just a street magician of sorts.

Like Joe said a few pages back, my faith is rock solid. You can choose to believe or to not believe what you want to.

[turambar85]

No, I was actually only trying to prove the point that we can no more accurately say that Christians honestly believe than that Muslims honestly believe, which Joch had argued against earlier.

[Extra Stout]

Nice explanation.

The problem I see with a minority of Christians is that they would like to see the US as a Christian nation with Christianity as the national religion. Yet they decry (rightfully so) Muslim nations on the other side of the world. Their rational is "but Christianity is a just religion" as if that mattered at all.

Are you referring to Dominionists? If so, that is not such a sizable minority. But they need to be kept an eye on (WallBuilders, asf), as they are anathemic to our tradition of liberal democracy.

[smeagol]

I clearly stated that I believed everything in the bible that is not supported by solid evidence is fiction.
No you didn't. You said:


I think people should interpret literally only the parts of the bible that are supported by empirical data, otherwise just take it for what it is, a remarkable work of fiction.

which is basically doing what extatic, scott, OG and other atheists/agnostics accuse religious people of doing: shoving down their (God-less) belief system down everybody's throught, but basically applying it to Christianity's most sacred Book.

[nbascribe]

Dayum this would make a good talk show on somebody's religious programming. Call Billy Graham. Summon Rod Parsley. Dog gone it this is what REAL debate is all about!!!

Now with that said my only complaint is that man has a tendancy to use theocracy as a means of justifying what they may have read in the bible. We try to govern by that notion. Theology is the study of a religion. Whatever your beliefs are - Orthodox Greek, Muslim, Hassidic Jew, Messonic Jew, Southern Baptist, Episcopolian, etc., it is your job as a believer in your faith to study to show yourself approved.

What is truly amazing though is that non-believers of any faith fail to realize that the laws of the land are based off of some type of belief. Whether you pick up the Quoran, the Bible or ancient scrolls, the laws we live by have religious background and foundation. So all of had to believe in something or SOMEONE of a higher plane to be able to live under the laws we have now.

Religion and society are very much interwoven into us whether we believe it or even like it.

[xrayzebra]

^^Now you have gone done and done it. You will pay.

[nbascribe]

Feigning ignorance...:rolleyes

I have no idea what u talking bout...I was reading Dr. Seus!! :lol

[MaNuMaNiAc]

No you didn't. You said:



which is basically doing what extatic, scott, OG and other atheists/agnostics accuse religious people of doing: shoving down their (God-less) belief system down everybody's throught, but basically applying it to Christianity's most sacred Book.
Look, the thread asked a simple question and I answered with MY OPINION, which I clearly stated was MY OPINION! Now GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELF! I'm not trying to shove anything down anybody's throat. You don't like that I think the bible is bullshit?? WELL LIVE WITH IT!, because I do!

I still dare you to tell me what exactly is false with this statement?


I think people should interpret literally only the parts of the bible that are supported by empirical data, otherwise just take it for what it is, a remarkable work of fiction.
because all you said before was "I can't 'cause you have no faith" or in other words, "you're right, but I need a cop out" http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

[MannyIsGod]

The world will be a better place when people learn to keep their religous beliefs to themselves.

[exstatic]

No you didn't. You said:



which is basically doing what extatic, scott, OG and other atheists/agnostics accuse religious people of doing: shoving down their (God-less) belief system down everybody's throught, but basically applying it to Christianity's most sacred Book.
I don't give a flying fuck what you believe, Smegma. When people of religion can extend me the same courtesy in everyday life and stop trying to shove the laws handed down by a bunch of shepards down MY throat, I'll be amazed, but I'm not holding my breath.

[nbascribe]

Hold up...I'm still trying to find where "get the fuck over yourself" is in any of the religious materials.

There has to be pennance for that stance somewhere?

[jochhejaam]

The world will be a better place when people learn to keep their religous beliefs to themselves.
That's contradictory to one of the central truths of Christianity in which Jesus Christ calls for his disciples to spread the "good news" (evangelize) and to go into all the Nations and preach the Gospel (Good News) to all men even unto the ends of the earth.

1. The imaginations of man are evil from his youth on up, = Mankind are sinners.
2. The wages (penalty) of sin are/is death.
3. By dying Christ paid the penalty for mans sins
4. We must accept and acknowledge the sacrifice he made and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (that's easy).
5. Being redeemed from eternal damnation and given eternal life through Jesus Christ = Good News.
6. EVANGELISM Those that have received this good news are compelled to pass it along to others so they too have the opportunity to receive eternal life.

Back to the thread title; I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God but some of it, although true, should not be taken literally.
Taking it literally is a side issue to its central theme and is not a stumbling block to entering the kingdom of heaven.

[MannyIsGod]

I understand why Christians do what they do, but that doesn't mean I have to agree that its a good course of action.

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

Why is every other country surpassing our academic standards??? Sadly students don't care anymore... they're more concerned about trivialities such as popularity or who is the first to own a car... or drink alcoholic beverages.... Many parents don't care anymore either...

So then you get parents that do want their children growing with some sense of moral fabric and what does the liberal media do?? Slam them for bigoted interference... right.. :rolleyes


Could it be that they are surpassing your standards because they teach secular science? I have yet to hear about a modern country with high education standards that allows religion to be taught in public education.

Moral you say? Why is your moral better than anyone else's? Religion should be kept aside from state, politics, law and education.




Pretty soon, things that most would consider as a 'wrong' today will be allowed in our future... why? Because it's all relativistic...

Use to be that sex out of the confines of marriage was considered a wrong...
Today it is the norm...

Use to be that exploitation of the weak was looked down upon...
Today we murder millions of unborn children without remorse... and use political boundaries to denigrate other human beings...

Perhaps tomorrow someone will push for the rights of pedophiles...
And they will be able to wed your 12 year old daughters and sons...
However silly or far-fetched as that may sound... for the people of tomorrow we might be the ones who were 'primitive thinkers'... after all, moral relatisvism is an inherent off-shoot of liberal progressive thinking... most people just don't realize it.

If you wanted to look like comprehensive, that post has erased that chance. You blame moral relativism, where I blame the economic system, lack of reason and secular education, belief in partisan views of the world like religion, race or nationality, authoritarism, unequal distribution of wealth. A kid growing without any chance to progress in his life is violence.


My religious beliefs have scientific implications... but never have I tried to pass them on as Science...




What human decides what is wrong and what is right???? GOD is the one who has set the standard. If you look closer at the Bible, the book you call a work of fiction... you will find that standard of living.

You do what you will... to each their own... I know I am held accountable by GOD before being held accountable by any other authoritative designee on earth.




For all your talk of empirical data you can't see an extrapolation when you see one. Yes, we can most definately agree that pedophilia is a horrible illness. But your grandchildren might be the ones thinking you were a primitive thinker 25 years down the road. It's not that implausible... at the rate things are going.

I disagree. Humans decide their lives and the way they want to live them. Where you see a "standard", I see collective agreements about what is right and wrong, produced inside a democratic society which decides the way they want to live. God deciding how humans should live sounds awfully close to the Taliban.

No God or authority helds me acountable...I'm acountable to myself and other human beings as equals.

And the last paragraph is nonsense. The worst crimes against humanity were commited by genocides who thought that their had the moral right to dictate how things should work.


Show me another example in history of a book of fiction that is believed to be true by billions of people.



In a free society. That does not apply to societies where dissent is crushed systematically.


And if suddenly we go back to join the State and Church again, we won't be a free society, we would have became like the Muslim extremists. We would have the moral dogma of the Dark Ages, but with the firepower of the Modern Age. Nice, can't wait for it.




One key difference between Islam and Christianity is how they treat the secular world. The Christian Bible makes no claims upon how government or the market or society is to be run, save for the ethical requirements of believers within those venues. (Of course, this differs from the stentorian dictates laid out for Israel in Old Testament. But we aren't professing tabernacle Judaism here). The Koran, on the other hand, lays out exactly how the government, economy, society, and everyday life are supposed to be conducted. So many of the Muslim lands are run as theocracies under Shari'a law. There is no Christian equivalent to Shari'a law.



And the difference lies within that the West is a secular, democratic, plural society, while most of the Islam is stuck in the Middle Ages where faith is above anything else. Some religious organizations in the West are thriving to go back to that point, and that is what is so upsetting. They try to evangelize, to spread their reactionary message.



What is truly amazing though is that non-believers of any faith fail to realize that the laws of the land are based off of some type of belief. Whether you pick up the Quoran, the Bible or ancient scrolls, the laws we live by have religious background and foundation. So all of had to believe in something or SOMEONE of a higher plane to be able to live under the laws we have now.

Religion and society are very much interwoven into us whether we believe it or even like it.

Ancient Greek philosophy, Roman Law, Naturalism, Enlightment, all the Secular Sciences, have made greater contributions to progress and modern societies than religion. Religion was important for social structure once, but not now.

[Phenomanul]

Actually, I've provided the evidence in this forum before and been blasted because some people don't like the results. You may have a different definition of what it means to be a Christian, but I define it as believing that Jesus is the son of God and savior of mankind. Now, whether someone is a "good" Christian or lives a life Jesus would approve is another question. But those who fit my definition of Christians are 37 times more likely to be incarcerated than atheists. So obviously, just believing that Jesus is the savior is not enough. I don't believe that teaching Intelligent Design or any other religious (in this case Christian but it could be any religion) theory in school does anything but get people to believe that Jesus is the savior. As the data shows, this doesn't do much for getting people to live a "good" lifestyle.

The myth of moral-less atheists running around and causing havoc is just that - a myth. The truth is that atheists are just as capable (and in fact just as likely) of living a moral lifestyle as anyone. Believing in God - in and of itself - does nothing to encourage morality.

With that said, I applaud the efforts of all religions, because they all have a common goal: to instill their followers with a sense of ethics. But this should be done at church and at home, not at school or any other public institution. Some people (like myself) don't need these religions to live a moral lifestyle. As of yet, I've yet to murder, rape, pillage, steal or any of the other sins that religion teaches us to avoid. And I did it all on my own sense, not divine inspiration.


I do remember your study... I also remember questioning the methods used... and without being disrespectful... you just can't build conclusions based on your interpretation on who was or wasn't a Christian... It's not as easy as say.. pointing out an atheist who has professed no belief in any GOD or 'higher being'. A Christian is known by his 'fruit'... attributes of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance... among others... Unless your study included the scope of their lives in order to assess the genuiness of their faith... then the whole study was inherently flawed. It was only as good as that initial basis.

And yes, I agree, the moral education of children should be conducted at home.... but it goes the other way too... who has decided that school authorities were not to be questioned? That their influence on our children on matters non-academic was not to be questioned... But that's not what this thread is about.

With regards to your other comments, we as humans will always fall short of GOD's standard... but the amazing thing is that GOD's grace and forgiveness supercedes our shortcomings... HIS LOVE has no bounds for those willing to accept HIM. Therefore, to 'run the good race' should be the marathon of our lives... and if we should stumble, HE will be there to help us up and to help us keep going forward without looking back (as in without letting our past rob us the joy of our present or our future)...

And sure, about 60% of the population could probably also claim to have never "murdered, raped, stolen, plundered etc..." but that in and of itself would not constitute living by GOD's standard. Have you ever cheated on a test, or tried to get away with credits or deductions on your taxes? Perhaps maybe someone gave you more change than was required... Did you ever let your anger get out of control... or even hold a simple grudge? Did you ever let alcohol ever get the better of you? There are countless of circumstances for which we are held accountable before GOD that wouldn't necessarily warrant a prison term... these things should nevertheless 'bite' at our conscience and the decision to follow through with our actions is still every bit our own... the fact that some of these actions don't cause remorse for some people goes to show that a relativistic view of morality is a dangerous thing.... and unfortunately, our society has adopted this relativistic view.... too much tolerance is not always a good thing.

[exstatic]

That's contradictory to one of the central truths of Christianity in which Jesus Christ calls for his disciples to spread the "good news" (evangelize) and to go into all the Nations and preach the Gospel (Good News) to all men even unto the ends of the earth.

1. The imaginations of man are evil from his youth on up, = Mankind are sinners.
2. The wages (penalty) of sin are/is death.
3. By dying Christ paid the penalty for mans sins
4. We must accept and acknowledge the sacrifice he made and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (that's easy).
5. Being redeemed from eternal damnation and given eternal life through Jesus Christ = Good News.
6. EVANGELISM Those that have received this good news are compelled to pass it along to others so they too have the opportunity to receive eternal life.

Back to the thread title; I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God but some of it, although true, should not be taken literally.
Taking it literally is a side issue to its central theme and is not a stumbling block to entering the kingdom of heaven.


I told you. They're here to shove it down our collective throats. Hari-Christians, and we can't even avoid airports.

[smeagol]

Look, the thread asked a simple question and I answered with MY OPINION, which I clearly stated was MY OPINION! Now GET THE FUCK OVER YOURSELF! I'm not trying to shove anything down anybody's throat. You don't like that I think the bible is bullshit?? WELL LIVE WITH IT!, because I do!

Go and re read your responce instead of getting all excited, start cursing and replying in caps. You said people should interpret the Bible in a ceratain way . . . the way you interpret the Bible, which is obviously bullshit *.

How about I interpret the Bible the way I want and you interpret it the way you want, and we can both go our merry ways.

Oh, by the way, you changed the word "should" for the words "I think" which proves you have realized of your mistake.

* Bullshit is you telling me how to interpret the Bible.

[smeagol]

I don't give a flying fuck what you believe, Smegma. When people of religion can extend me the same courtesy in everyday life and stop trying to shove the laws handed down by a bunch of shepards down MY throat, I'll be amazed, but I'm not holding my breath.
Hey erratic, if you did not understand my post, or why I posted it, please refrain from responding.

It makes you look stupid.

[jochhejaam]

I told you. They're here to shove it down our collective throats. Hari-Christians, and we can't even avoid airports.
You read it of your own free will and you define that as having something shoved down your throat? :lol

[exstatic]

I read what you wrote. I interpret that as I will never be left alone by Evangelicals. Tell me different. Tell me it isn't your duty to recruit.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Go and re read your responce instead of getting all excited, start cursing and replying in caps. You said people should interpret the Bible in a ceratain way . . . the way you interpret the Bible, which is obviously bullshit *.

How about I interpret the Bible the way I want and you interpret it the way you want, and we can both go our merry ways.

Look, I clearly wrote in that post that I THOUGHT people should, I NEVER said people SHOULD period. I'm not asking you to change anything nor am I trying to cram my beliefs down your throat. In fact seems to me that it is you who doesn't like the way I think and feel inclined to change my mind, which you have done a piss poor job at anyway.



Oh, by the way, and you changed the word "should" for the words "I think" which proves you have realized of your mistake.

* Bullshit is you telling me how to interpret the Bible.
I didn't change anything in that post ANYTHING, and I made no mistake, you're the one getting all worked up simply because I don't think the way you do. You know, with every post you're beginning to sound more and more like the typical Christian, its either "think my way, or the highway" huh? Well guess what, I think the bible is fiction, yes F I C T I O N my friend, and until you come here and show clear evidence to the contrary, other than that "you have to have faith crap" I'll still think is fiction.

By the way, you seriously need to get over yourself, nobody was telling you how to interpret the bible, I was expressing what I thought, you do what the hell you want... no pun intended.

[jochhejaam]

I read what you wrote. I interpret that as I will never be left alone by Evangelicals.
I was replying to Manny and you read my reply, that's a hardcore indoctrinating technique for sure.





Tell me different. Tell me it isn't your duty to recruit.
Our commission as stated before is to spread the Gospel. It's a commission given by Jesus Christ so if you feel He's shoving something down your throat when his followers are obeying his command then perhaps you should take that up with Him.

[exstatic]

I was replying to Manny and you read my reply, that's a hardcore indoctrinating technique for sure.


If you were relying to Manny, why was my quote in your reply? Nice try.




I told you. They're here to shove it down our collective throats. Hari-Christians, and we can't even avoid airports.


You read it of your own free will and you define that as having something shoved down your throat?

[Manu'sMagicalLeftHand]

I do remember your study... I also remember questioning the methods used... and without being disrespectful... you just can't build conclusions based on your interpretation on who was or wasn't a Christian... It's not as easy as say.. pointing out an atheist who has professed no belief in any GOD or 'higher being'. A Christian is known by his 'fruit'... attributes of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance... among others... Unless your study included the scope of their lives in order to assess their genuiness to their faith... then the whole study was inherently flawed. It was only as good as that initial basis.

And yes, I agree, the moral education of children should be conducted at home.... but it goes the other way too... who has decided that school authorities were not to be questioned? That their influence on our children was not to be questioned... But that's not what this thread is about.



That is untrue. You only call Christians those who fit your criteria, not the Church's. If you only take how was the person according to religion, Torquemada, Bernardo Gui, Cromwell, Pinochet, Hitler, Franco, Cortés, Mussolini, etc. were good Christians. So, relativism is necessary nowadays, even in religion. Otherwise if you took the bible as a completely rigid set of rules, you shouldn't post here, own a computer, use electric power or argue about religion (because you aren't a qualified member of the Church).


With regards to your other comments, we as humans will always fall short of GOD's standard... but the amazing thing is that GOD's grace and forgiveness supercedes our shortcomings... HIS LOVE has no bounds for those willing to accept HIM. Therefore, to 'run the good race' should be the marathon of our lives... and if we should stumble, HE will be there to help us up and to help us keep going forward without looking back (as in without letting our past rob us the joy of our present or our future)...

And sure, about 60% of the population could probably also claim to have never "murdered, raped, stolen, plundered etc..." but that in and of itself would not constitute living by GOD's standard. Have you ever cheated on a test, or tried to get away with credits or deductions on your taxes? Perhaps maybe someone gave you more change than was required... Did you ever let your anger get out of control... or even hold a simple grudge? Did you ever let alcohol ever get the better of you? There are countless of circumstances for which we are held accountable before GOD that wouldn't necessarily warrant a prison term... these things should nevertheless 'bite' at our conscience and the decision to follow through with our actions is still every bit our own... the fact that some of these actions don't cause remorse for some people goes to show that a relativistic view of morality is a dangerous thing.... and unfortunately, our society has adopted this relativistic view.... too much tolerance is not always a good thing.


Again, you are confused. You believe that Christianity stands for all those things, when as any historical movement, it isn't that simple. Of course, you post from a religious point of view, which means taking the moral high ground, and taking your own view as the "good", and anything else as "evil". And if some actions don't cause remorse, it isn't about a dangerous relativistic view, I'm far more concerned about dogmatic views which see anything that is different to them as a danger that should be terminated, whether it's by evangelization or using other methods...

[jochhejaam]

If you were relying to Manny, why was my quote in your reply? Nice try.




Quote=Manny: The world will be a better place when people learn to keep their religous beliefs to themselves
^^^Manny's Quote




That's contradictory to one of the central truths of Christianity in which Jesus Christ calls for his disciples to spread the "good news" (evangelize) and to go into all the Nations and preach the Gospel (Good News) to all men even unto the ends of the earth.

1. The imaginations of man are evil from his youth on up, = Mankind are sinners.
2. The wages (penalty) of sin are/is death.
3. By dying Christ paid the penalty for mans sins
4. We must accept and acknowledge the sacrifice he made and confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (that's easy).
5. Being redeemed from eternal damnation and given eternal life through Jesus Christ = Good News.
6. EVANGELISM Those that have received this good news are compelled to pass it along to others so they too have the opportunity to receive eternal life.

Back to the thread title; I believe the Bible is the inspired Word of God but some of it, although true, should not be taken literally.
Taking it literally is a side issue to its central theme and is not a stumbling block to entering the kingdom of heaven.
^^^jochhejaam's Quote replying to Manny

Manny's quote followed by my reply, folowed by your whining about having Christianity shoved down your throat.

RIF

[Phenomanul]

That is untrue. You only call Christians those who fit your criteria, not the Church's. If you only take how was the person according to religion, Torquemada, Bernardo Gui, Cromwell, Pinochet, Hitler, Franco, Cortés, Mussolini, etc. were good Christians. So, relativism is necessary nowadays, even in religion. Otherwise if you took the bible as a completely rigid set of rules, you shouldn't post here, own a computer, use electric power or argue about religion (because you aren't a qualified member of the Church).

:wtf Right.... and I'm the one that's confused... Hitler??? Franco??? Good Christians...??? Now I see where your confusion lies... but let me straighten something out for you... they were never Christians... "Not everyone who invokes my name and calls me Lord will inherit the Kingdom of God"

BTW what does the bible have to do with computer use... I think you are mistaking me for an Amish?




Again, you are confused. You believe that Christianity stands for all those things, when as any historical movement, it isn't that simple. Of course, you post from a religious point of view, which means taking the moral high ground, and taking your own view as the "good", and anything else as "evil". And if some actions don't cause remorse, it isn't about a dangerous relativistic view, I'm far more concerned about dogmatic views which see anything that is different to them as a danger that should be terminated, whether it's by evangelization or using other methods...

Who is taking a moral high-ground??? I simply stated the guidelines by which I live my life by... and BTW I quoted the scripture, so they are not imaginary guidelines...

And yes, your concerns are well rooted... but they are not related to the true Christian... they are related to the quasi-Christian.

[xrayzebra]

Ah yes. Another quite discussion on religion.

[DarkReign]

Zzzzzzz...Zzzzzzzz....

Wake me when its over.

[Phenomanul]

I'd been meaning to respond to this post but I had to power down the computer last night due to lightning storms...


Could it be that they are surpassing your standards because they teach secular science? I have yet to hear about a modern country with high education standards that allows religion to be taught in public education.

I was educated in this country... and if I'm saying that the standards were crappy that's because I saw that the emphasis was being placed on other things that were not academic in nature (sports, clubs, parties etc...) and that the students were more concerned about trying to 'fit-in' than on learning... If I was able to overcome those odds, it was because my parents instilled a sense of responsibility within me... I was told that what I did in school would heavily weigh on my future as a professional... As it turned out I was the first Hispanic Valedictorian in a predominantly 'white' school. I was threatened, but that only motivated me to excel even more... To date, I own the highest grade-point average that the school has ever seen. I am proud of my accomplishments, yes... but to say that the low standards observed in our public school system are due to the teaching of religion is totally off. I was the one guy who was swimming against the current... and look how I turned out (from an academic perspective). As an off-note; most of the people I knew from a local K-12 Christian Academy had better grades than many of my peers... I would re-think that perspective.

Besides, if you haven't followed the news.... THEY don't allow the teaching of ID in schools... Not even, when our country's President is a proponent of said curriculae.


Moral you say? Why is your moral better than anyone else's? Religion should be kept aside from state, politics, law and education.

Again, I never claimed to have the moral high-ground, I simply stated the guidelines by which I live my life...






Pretty soon, things that most would consider as a 'wrong' today will be allowed in our future... why? Because it's all relativistic...

Use to be that sex out of the confines of marriage was considered a wrong...
Today it is the norm...

Use to be that exploitation of the weak was looked down upon...
Today we murder millions of unborn children without remorse... and use political boundaries to denigrate other human beings...

Perhaps tomorrow someone will push for the rights of pedophiles...
And they will be able to wed your 12 year old daughters and sons...
However silly or far-fetched as that may sound... for the people of tomorrow we might be the ones who were 'primitive thinkers'... after all, moral relatisvism is an inherent off-shoot of liberal progressive thinking... most people just don't realize it.

If you wanted to look like comprehensive, that post has erased that chance. You blame moral relativism, where I blame the economic system, lack of reason and secular education, belief in partisan views of the world like religion, race or nationality, authoritarism, unequal distribution of wealth. A kid growing without any chance to progress in his life is violence.

Comprehensive :wtf.... that post you were referencing requires some 'outside-of-the-box' thinking and I don't mean that in a condescending type of way...

I believe your definition of moral relativism and mine differ... your next section highlights the difference... and the reason why I believe the degradation rate of our society's standards leads to a dangerous outlook.

But to address this comment above... certainly, many of those issues are problems affecting our society... you act like I'm oblivious to their effects. Nevertheless, if no one safeguards the standard by which our society is accountable to itself then brace yourself for more of the same struggles.... 'authoritarism, unequal distribution of wealth etc...' Who governs the powerful if they are the ones making all the rules?



I disagree. Humans decide their lives and the way they want to live them. Where you see a "standard", I see collective agreements about what is right and wrong, produced inside a democratic society which decides the way they want to live. God deciding how humans should live sounds awfully close to the Taliban.

What I just highlighted defines moral relativism.... What? you don't honestly believe that the standards that we live by today are the same as those our grandparents' lived by two generations ago?

Again, use to be that extra-marital sex was considered a wrong... now kids are having sex at a younger mean age... and our society sees this as normal.

The relativism doesn't stem from comparing say my standards to yours... or the standards of person A to the standards of person B. The relativism stems from a comparison of the prevalent standards of our society across its generational history... some changes are good (weeding out racism) but many changes are bad.

With regards to the Taliban comment... For the umpteenth time... I'm not advocating for the union of Church and State.... so that comment is way off-base. GOD has set my personal standard in HIS Word. I live by it, but I'm also governed by the law of the land (traffic regulations, taxes, laws and bylaws etc...).

Yes Christians do make a push to for certain regulations to align themselves with biblical standards... but isn't this a Democratic country??? Last time I checked it was. If you don't like it, then you also have a right to push for whatever legislation you wish... and in the end the public opinion will decide... There are some laws I like and some laws I dislike... either way I have to live by them or with them... that's the way it works.

You all act as if our Constitutional right to shape our laws were a travesty... and yet use the same means to push for your own agendas... You can't have it both ways.


No God or authority helds me acountable...I'm acountable to myself and other human beings as equals.

And the last paragraph is nonsense. The worst crimes against humanity were commited by genocides who thought that their had the moral right to dictate how things should work.

You are entitled to that belief... But I tell you this, if none of the other things on that list would cause you to have remorse, then from a business vantage point I would be concerned if you were my business partner.

And that last comment could very well read;

The worst crimes against humanity were commited by power hungry people who thought that they had the moral right to dictate how things should work.

... and still be every bit true...



And if suddenly we go back to join the State and Church again, we won't be a free society, we would have became like the Muslim extremists. We would have the moral dogma of the Dark Ages, but with the firepower of the Modern Age. Nice, can't wait for it.

And the difference lies within that the West is a secular, democratic, plural society, while most of the Islam is stuck in the Middle Ages where faith is above anything else. Some religious organizations in the West are thriving to go back to that point, and that is what is so upsetting. They try to evangelize, to spread their reactionary message.

Again, your basis is wrong simply because you've assumed I'm advocating in favor of a theocracy...


Ancient Greek philosophy, Roman Law, Naturalism, Enlightment, all the Secular Sciences, have made greater contributions to progress and modern societies than religion. Religion was important for social structure once, but not now.

Greek philosophies from whom? Socrates? Aristotle? Plato? Do you believe their works are true?

The Romans also enslaved children and boys as their armies' sex slaves... yeah great progress there....

Secular Science is not a movement... as much as you may wish that to be the case... It is simply the study of our natural world, and as it turns out to be Adam was the first scientist... considering he was given the task to name every creature on earth.

No movement was or is perfect. Human imperfection takes care of that and makes that fact.

[clambake]

He's right. I forgot who said it. Something like "commision to spread the gospel". This is a tax free, money making venture thats preys, prays, praise on those with no where else to turn. False hope. Thats the promise.

Pray for little johnny's recovery! Opps, little johnny didn't make it. God decided it was johnny's time to die. So whats with all the praying if it's out of your hands?

[Phenomanul]

He's right. I forgot who said it. Something like "commision to spread the gospel". This is a tax free, money making venture thats preys, prays, praise on those with no where else to turn. False hope. Thats the promise.

Pray for little johnny's recovery! Opps, little johnny didn't make it. God decided it was johnny's time to die. So whats with all the praying if it's out of your hands?


Oh darn... I must have been duped!!! Woe is me!!!

Here's some food for thought... Not one atheist resides in hell.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Greek philosophies from whom? Socrates? Aristotle? Plato? Do you believe their works are true?

The Romans also enslaved children and boys as their armies' sex slaves... yeah great progress there....

Secular Science is not a movement... as much as you may wish that to be the case... It is simply the study of our natural world, and as it turns out to be Adam was the first scientist... considering he was given the task to name every creature on earth.

No movement was or is perfect. Human imperfection takes care of that and makes that fact.
wow... you were making great points and then you had to go and add this last part http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

[turambar85]

He's right. I forgot who said it. Something like "commision to spread the gospel". This is a tax free, money making venture thats preys, prays, praise on those with no where else to turn. False hope. Thats the promise.

Pray for little johnny's recovery! Opps, little johnny didn't make it. God decided it was johnny's time to die. So whats with all the praying if it's out of your hands?

lol good stuff. I have been born and raised a Christian, but I can't help feeling that way sometimes. Not only that, but when something good happens to a Christian, it was God doing them a favor, when something bad happens to a Christian, it was God teaching them a lesson. When something good happens to a non-believer, it was free will and luck working, when something bad happens, Gods giving them what they deserve. So we only have free will if we are a bad person getting good things. Any other scenario we are the great puppets.

[Phenomanul]

wow... you were making great points and then you had to go and ass this last part http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif


My bad... I got a little carried away... I was tired I guess.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

My bad... I got a little carried away... I was tired I guess.
lol, that "ass" part was supposed to be "add" http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif I'll fix it

[Phenomanul]

lol, that "ass" part was supposed to be "add" http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smilol.gif I'll fix it


I was all ???????? It couldn't have been that offensive to question the greek philosophers....

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I was all ???????? I couldn't have been that offensive to question the greek philosophers....
:lmao

[clambake]

Can you imagine the conversations between Jesus and God?


God: Son, you must die for their sins.

Jesus: I have to die for their sins? These piss-ant little nothings? Are you insane? I'm your son, you asshole!

God: It's the only way.

Jesus: The only way??? Could you have put a little more thought into this, you maniac!

God: I have made my decision.

Jesus: Did you just create mushrooms or what!! Correct me if I'm wrong but, if they kill me, isn't that a sin? Man, I can't wait to see how this book ends!

[Extra Stout]

lol good stuff. I have been born and raised a Christian, but I can't help feeling that way sometimes. Not only that, but when something good happens to a Christian, it was God doing them a favor, when something bad happens to a Christian, it was God teaching them a lesson. When something good happens to a non-believer, it was free will and luck working, when something bad happens, Gods giving them what they deserve. So we only have free will if we are a bad person getting good things. Any other scenario we are the great puppets.
Sounds like you received some lousy teaching. I remember something in that big book about the sun shining on both the righteous and the wicked.

[turambar85]

Yes, what Im saying has nothing to do with the Bible, it has to do with what many Christians say. If they win 1 million in the lottery, they say that God is rewarding them for being pure. If a rapist wins the million, God had no role in the outcome. Can we pick and choose? Why doesnt God always make the good guy win?

[Extra Stout]

Yes, what Im saying has nothing to do with the Bible, it has to do with what many Christians say. If they win 1 million in the lottery, they say that God is rewarding them for being pure. If a rapist wins the million, God had no role in the outcome. Can we pick and choose? Why doesnt God always make the good guy win?
Well, a lot of Christians are mistaken about the nature of God and how he doles out blessings. There are a lot of popular heresies that try to link piety with wealth or success. The shortest answer I can give is that God's blessings rarely manifest themselves in ways the world would see as "winning." In the infrequent case that they do, God would be more interested in the stewardship of those blessings than in the pampering of the recipient.

[Phenomanul]

Well, a lot of Christians are mistaken about the nature of God and how he doles out blessings. There are a lot of popular heresies that try to link piety with wealth or success. The shortest answer I can give is that God's blessings rarely manifest themselves in ways the world would see as "winning." In the infrequent case that they do, God would be more interested in the stewardship of those blessings than in the pampering of the recipient.


Well said...

BTW turambar85 a true Christian would probably not play the Lotto. If they did, that would mean that he/she was not trusting in GOD's provision. Now if you found a lotto ticket.... that's a different story.

[turambar85]

Trust in Gods provision? But the lotto is an outlet through which God could provide. And if we should ignore risks and wait on Gods provision then why do risky invasive surgery? Should we then sit at home and wait for the healing?

[clambake]

Turambar85, you may be on to something. If it is Gods will, why am I spending so much on healthcare? Is it Gods will that I have healthcare and so many millions do not?

[Extra Stout]

I don't know that I could support the notion that paying a nominal amount to enter a sweepstakes is unbiblical because it represents failure to trust in God's provision. By that logic, a church raffle is sinful.

Now, spending the rent money on lottery tickets... that's a problem.

[Mr. Peabody]

Turambar85, you may be on to something. If it is Gods will, why am I spending so much on healthcare? Is it Gods will that I have healthcare and so many millions do not?

God hates poor people.

[turambar85]

Yes, but so is spending the rent money on big screen t.vs, expensive food, and dozens of pairs of shoes. If the church goes on a limb and says that because people spend so much on lotto tickets that it is wrong, they should also say that t.v's, good food, and shoes are wrong because people can, and do, spend all of their money on these as well

[Extra Stout]

Yes, but so is spending the rent money on big screen t.vs, expensive food, and dozens of pairs of shoes. If the church goes on a limb and says that because people spend so much on lotto tickets that it is wrong, they should also say that t.v's, good food, and shoes are wrong because people can, and do, spend all of their money on these as well
Do the churches where you grew up not preach about the perils of excessive materialism?

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Do the churches where you grew up not preach about the perils of excessive materialism?

I watched a documentary a while ago that followed the lives of popular televangelists and christian theologians such as Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Gerry Fallwell, Max Lucado, and a few other ones.

Bill Graham was the poorest of the group with only 9 luxury cars.

[DarkReign]

ES ownz all.

ph3A4 ]-[1^^

[Phenomanul]

I don't know that I could support the notion that paying a nominal amount to enter a sweepstakes is unbiblical because it represents failure to trust in God's provision. By that logic, a church raffle is sinful.

Now, spending the rent money on lottery tickets... that's a problem.


The way I see it.... IMHO I play the Lotto by faith... not by odds.

Playing by faith means that if it's GOD's will for me to be financially blessed then HE will do so in HIS way... I don't need to supply any material for this to happen i.e. purchasing a Lotto ticket... It will happen in GOD's time and when and if HE so desires.

Besides I wouldn't play the Lotto even if I wasn't a Christian simply because I consider it a tax on those who are bad at math... the Jackpot would have to be over 1 Billion for the odds to play a little more in our favor, but with Jackpots that high you would likely have to split the loot with others, due to the Jackpot/participation correlation...

Having said that I guess I could understand your perspective.

Oh and with regards to church raffles, usually there is a need and a purpose to be filled by the raffle; the raffle itself just makes giving donations for said cause a little more interesting and fun. A facet which I don't believe can be equated to one's desire of becoming an overnight millionaire....

[Extra Stout]

I watched a documentary a while ago that followed the lives of popular televangelists and christian theologians such as Billy Graham, Pat Robertson, Gerry Fallwell, Max Lucado, and a few other ones.

Bill Graham was the poorest of the group with only 9 luxury cars.

That's nice. The peril to which I was referring is not the scowl of a sanctimonious liberal. It is unmanageable debt.

[TreeWhisperer]

Yes, stout, but my claim was that to make lotto wrong because excessive use is bad is equivalent to making shoe shopping wrong because excessive spending is bad. Do not say that to buy a lottery ticket is wrong, but say to make your children starve for your hobby is wrong, anything can be taken too far, and not just the lottery.

[TreeWhisperer]

And hemawhatever(I forgot your name), a purpose is served by the lottery. In Tennessee the lottery has enabled thousands of students to attend college who otherwise would have either not have had the money, or would have struggled emmensely. And the odds with small tickets arent that bad. You pay 2 bucks and have a shot at winning 50-100. I, for instance, have easily come out on top with tickets. I would say Ive spent 100 this year on tickets, at the most, and have won well over 200, including two 50's on $2 tickets. It's not a big risk, and there are worse things in the world.

[Spurminator]

As a Christian, I have no problem with responsible participation in the Lottery, in and of itself. Of course, you have to be careful with the greed associated with it... but that applies to any financial pursuit.

[TreeWhisperer]

Sorry again, I have to be more careful when making posts, the last two were supposed to be by Turambar85. I have a habit of not looking and always expecting my name to still be signed in.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

That's nice. The peril to which I was referring is not the scowl of a sanctimonious liberal. It is unmanageable debt.


How can you classify me a hypocrite? I feel that I'm fairly consistent.

You know stout I'm not really sure what it is that I have done to warrant your wrath, but even though you seem to truly despise my posts, I have grown to appreciate you as a poster.

In any event I haven’t really kept up with this thread and have no idea what the context of that particular statement was; I just saw it and added my input. My contention being that for whatever reason, organized religion has a truly corrupting influence. In the area of personal wealth alone I have seen this all too many times. In many of the churches I have attended one can find that the higher up in the hierarchy one goes the richer the clergy becomes. (I'm not even catholic). So instead of taking the generous donations these pastors get from their congregation and donating it to the community at large...you know the poor people that republicans hate so much... it gets invested in a new Lincoln navigator.


I am by no means an expert in Christian theology, but are we not suppose to be storing our treasures in the kingdom of heaven?

[Spurminator]

Do your feelings about organized religion resemble your feelings about organized government?

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I think an organization based on faith versus an organization based on transparency and accountability have two very different trajectories. That being said absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that, I have always been a fan of a divided government, I think our country did well with Clinton in the white house and republicans in control of congress

[Extra Stout]

Yes, stout, but my claim was that to make lotto wrong because excessive use is bad is equivalent to making shoe shopping wrong because excessive spending is bad. Do not say that to buy a lottery ticket is wrong, but say to make your children starve for your hobby is wrong, anything can be taken too far, and not just the lottery.
Well, I totally agree with your point then. I was comparing moderate play of the game with a sweepatakes or a raffle. If somebody wants to drop some of their leisure money on lottery tickets, then I don't see anything wrong with it. Their stewardship is their business.

Now biblically, there are cases where it is considered wise to avoid behaviors that are perfectly OK in moderation, but that might set an example for others who have a weakness in that area to go too far. So, if a church is located somewhere where a lot of people have a gambling problem, it might be wise for mature church members to avoid gambling. If a church is located somewhere where alcoholism is a concern, it might be wise to avoid drinking alcohol around some people, or for elders to avoid it entirely. It doesn't mean that the lottery or wine are bad. But it may behoove a Christian to think about whether his actions might lead a brother to fall.

Some churches take that too far and say that the behaviors themselves are sinful. That position is not supported biblically.

[Extra Stout]

My contention being that for whatever reason, organized religion has a truly corrupting influence. In the area of personal wealth alone I have seen this all too many times. In many of the churches I have attended one can find that the higher up in the hierarchy one goes the richer the clergy becomes. (I'm not even catholic). So instead of taking the generous donations these pastors get from their congregation and donating it to the community at large...you know the poor people that republicans hate so much... it gets invested in a new Lincoln navigator.
There are some churches run by "hucksters." San Antonio has a rather well-known one around 1604 and 281 North.

Some of those guys listed maybe I like and maybe I don't. I will make a distinction between people who made their money siphoning off tithes versus those who made in a para-church capacity such as authoring books.

I'm not going to pass judgment on every rich Christian living an affluent lifestyle. By the world's standards, my 2000 square foot house with air conditioning and running water, two cars and an old SUV is extravagant. I know some wealthy Christians. There is some stuff they have that they don't really need, that I might find excessive. On the other hand, every time one of them closes a business deal, the church's new child care wing gets built, or twenty families get new houses from Habitat for Humanity, or a dozen trailers converted into mobile hospitals get shipped to Africa.

That to me is storing treasures in the kingdom of heaven. If somebody has $100 million, and gives $75 million to charity, what's left is still far more than they would ever need to live. Giving away that $75 million would be exhausting, though. How does one decide who does and who does not get funded? How much time and energy does it take to manage such a philanthropic exercise? It's not as if they just write out a check to God.

John Wesley once wrote that any rich person who doesn't give and give and give all that they have down until they can just eke out a simple lifestyle is a dead Christian. I suppose that Zacchaeus guy in Scripture who gave away only half his wealth was dead.

[Phenomanul]

And hemawhatever(I forgot your name), a purpose is served by the lottery. In Tennessee the lottery has enabled thousands of students to attend college who otherwise would have either not have had the money, or would have struggled emmensely. And the odds with small tickets arent that bad. You pay 2 bucks and have a shot at winning 50-100. I, for instance, have easily come out on top with tickets. I would say Ive spent 100 this year on tickets, at the most, and have won well over 200, including two 50's on $2 tickets. It's not a big risk, and there are worse things in the world.

Someone is making more profit however than is merited by the work being put in...

[Phenomanul]

How can you classify me a hypocrite? I feel that I'm fairly consistent.

You know stout I'm not really sure what it is that I have done to warrant your wrath, but even though you seem to truly despise my posts, I have grown to appreciate you as a poster.

In any event I haven’t really kept up with this thread and have no idea what the context of that particular statement was; I just saw it and added my input. My contention being that for whatever reason, organized religion has a truly corrupting influence. In the area of personal wealth alone I have seen this all too many times. In many of the churches I have attended one can find that the higher up in the hierarchy one goes the richer the clergy becomes. (I'm not even catholic). So instead of taking the generous donations these pastors get from their congregation and donating it to the community at large...you know the poor people that republicans hate so much... it gets invested in a new Lincoln navigator.


I am by no means an expert in Christian theology, but are we not suppose to be storing our treasures in the kingdom of heaven?

My father is a pastor of a small church of about 80 people... his salary is not what you would call 'living it large'... as far as I can remember he has made about 16K per year... for a family of 5.

Not all is explained by what you see on TV.

[Extra Stout]

Someone makes more profit however than is merited by the work put in...
And a first-grade teacher probably works harder than Warren Buffet too. Should we outlaw Berkshire Hathaway?

[Phenomanul]

And a first-grade teacher probably works harder than Warren Buffet too. Should we outlaw Berkshire Hathaway?


As I said in an earlier post... I can see where you are coming from and either way I personally wouldn't gamble... And that's not to say that your POV is incorrect.

The example you gave with reference to alcohol is one I have always used... Alcohol isn't bad... taking it excessively, or causing your brother to fall is... I hadn't ever seen the same concept applied to gambling though... I just can't imagine Jesus or one of the disciples gambling for that matter...

ehhh it's moot for me.

[Mr. Peabody]

Someone is making more profit however than is merited by the work being put in...

Doesn't the Bible allow for this in the vineyard workers parable?

[Phenomanul]

And a first-grade teacher probably works harder than Warren Buffet too. Should we outlaw Berkshire Hathaway?


Of course some things are esteemed to also hold more 'value'... be it the case or not.

The State however makes millions of dollars annually by preying on the hopes of mass millions wanting to be the next 'rags-to-riches' story...

[RobinsontoDuncan]

There are some churches run by "hucksters." San Antonio has a rather well-known one around 1604 and 281 North.

Some of those guys listed maybe I like and maybe I don't. I will make a distinction between people who made their money siphoning off tithes versus those who made in a para-church capacity such as authoring books.

I'm not going to pass judgment on every rich Christian living an affluent lifestyle. By the world's standards, my 2000 square foot house with air conditioning and running water, two cars and an old SUV is extravagant. I know some wealthy Christians. There is some stuff they have that they don't really need, that I might find excessive. On the other hand, every time one of them closes a business deal, the church's new child care wing gets built, or twenty families get new houses from Habitat for Humanity, or a dozen trailers converted into mobile hospitals get shipped to Africa.

That to me is storing treasures in the kingdom of heaven. If somebody has $100 million, and gives $75 million to charity, what's left is still far more than they would ever need to live. Giving away that $75 million would be exhausting, though. How does one decide who does and who does not get funded? How much time and energy does it take to manage such a philanthropic exercise? It's not as if they just write out a check to God.

John Wesley once wrote that any rich person who doesn't give and give and give all that they have down until they can just eke out a simple lifestyle is a dead Christian. I suppose that Zacchaeus guy in Scripture who gave away only half his wealth was dead.


All fair points I must admit. I really don't have a problem with wealth or wealthy people either, it is nice to be able to work hard and reap the benefits. I used to be a private attorney and I made a very good amount of money.

My problem with Christian churches has more to do with my personal experience, experience that has made me increasingly skeptical of church officials and cynical (a most unfortunate side effect, and not to be confused with sanctimonious contempt) with regards to religion.

When I was a young man my pastor was the leader of a fairly large church, and when I got old enough to begin noticing the amount of money he made (manifested in the large house, the luxurious clothes and cars) I became very disenchanted. After college I joined a small African-American church of about 30 people. I was with that congregation for nearly 20 years (having left last year). Every year I saw our Pastor become more and more repetitive about the importance of tithes, I saw his sermons gradually become less profound and, to my dismay, I found his personal fortune growing in leaps and bounds. The man had only ever worked in the church, the post office, and the navy. There is not a snowball's chance in hell that he accumulated his two Lincoln Navigators and three houses from his other occupations, and all this time the church building was falling down around us. I finally gave up on church after I heard my old bishop speak at our church's 100 year anniversary dinner. The man spoke about his many business ventures and all of the property he had owned, and this man had never worked for any secular business.

I have seen the Vatican, and while I rejoiced at the splendor I was repulsed by the thought of all the starving Catholics around the world.

I have been to Lynchburg and I drove past Gerry Fallwell's mansion-- I have seen churches here in the states that are the most ornate and beautiful buildings-- all the while I think about the poverty that surrounds them.

This has never bothered anyone I have ever discussed it with as much as it bothers me, but I have come to accept that.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Oh, and to whom are you referring, I don’t know of any famous San Antonio televangelists.

[Mr. Peabody]

And a first-grade teacher probably works harder than Warren Buffet too. Should we outlaw Berkshire Hathaway?

I understand your point, but the above statement is not true. Guys like Buffet, Gates, etc....are workaholics. That is how they get to be so rich. The work itself is the reward for them, not the money. If it was the money, they would have retired wealthy a long time ago.

[Extra Stout]

Oh, and to whom are you referring, I don’t know of any famous San Antonio televangelists.
Hagee.

[gameFACE]

God hates poor people.
He's Episcopalian?

I'm in the 49 percentile, BTW,

[Guru of Nothing]

WELL! Here is yet another instance where I begged God for clarity, only to wind up in the SpursTalk political forum.

Obviously, God hates me.

[Phenomanul]

WELL! Here is yet another instance where I begged God for clarity, only to wind up in the SpursTalk political forum.

Obviously, God hates me.

Maybe you just should have talked to HIM instead of being so demanding :spin

[Guru of Nothing]

Maybe you just should have talked to HIM instead of being so demanding :spin

Should I talk to God, or Jesus?

I seek clarity.

Thanks.

[2centsworth]

Actually, I've provided the evidence in this forum before and been blasted because some people don't like the results. You may have a different definition of what it means to be a Christian, but I define it as believing that Jesus is the son of God and savior of mankind. Now, whether someone is a "good" Christian or lives a life Jesus would approve is another question. But those who fit my definition of Christians are 37 times more likely to be incarcerated than atheists. So obviously, just believing that Jesus is the savior is not enough. I don't believe that teaching Intelligent Design or any other religious (in this case Christian but it could be any religion) theory in school does anything but get people to believe that Jesus is the savior. As the data shows, this doesn't do much for getting people to live a "good" lifestyle.


kind of off topic, but your post reminds me of the following verses:

mt 7:13-14
13You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. 14But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it.

your definition of Christians doesn't match the bible's definition. The church's are loaded with false converts.



. As of yet, I've yet to murder, rape, pillage, steal or any of the other sins that religion teaches us to avoid
Here's what the bible says about that:

1. Mt 5:27-28- You have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not commit adultery"28 But I (Jesus) say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

God is perfect and his standards are high, so lust=adultery.

2. One of the commandments is thou shall not bear false witness (lie). I'm sure you have done that.

3. Since I'm sure your a liar just like the rest of us, it's hard for me to believe that you have never stolen even something small.

4. As far as murder, Jesus said hate is comparable to Murder.

5. Have you ever used God's name in vain? That's called blasphemy and it's also a sin.

So at a minimum according to the bible you are more than likely are a lying, thieving, blaspheming, adulterer at heart.


I have all the respect in the world for you Scott, but you are just as much a sinner as the rest of us.

[Phenomanul]

Should I talk to God, or Jesus?

I seek clarity.

Thanks.


Pray to our Heavenly Father in Jesus' name.

[TDMVPDPOY]

im not a religous person, so i dont believe in stuff untill i see it myself.

the only thing i know life is short and i should live the way i want to, and that is to enjoy life at its best.

In many religous teachings are usually preachin about respecting others and livin a good life.

[Phenomanul]

im not a religous person, so i dont believe in stuff untill i see it myself.

the only thing i know life is short and i should live the way i want to, and that is to enjoy life at its best.

In many religous teachings are usually preachin about respecting others and livin a good life.

Can you see anti-matter? or a neutrino? How can you verify their existence???

[scott]

I do remember your study... I also remember questioning the methods used... and without being disrespectful... you just can't build conclusions based on your interpretation on who was or wasn't a Christian... It's not as easy as say.. pointing out an atheist who has professed no belief in any GOD or 'higher being'. A Christian is known by his 'fruit'... attributes of love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance... among others... Unless your study included the scope of their lives in order to assess the genuiness of their faith... then the whole study was inherently flawed. It was only as good as that initial basis.

I didn't make an interpretation on who wasn't or wasn't a Christian. If someone said they were a Christian, I took their word for it.

Again - maybe they are "bad Christians" or don't follow the Christian example - but they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Savior of Man. Their being able to live a Christian lifestyle sounds like a problem of the Christian faith failing to properly train it's pupil's in basic civil obedience, as atheists don't have the same problems with following the law. Tell me, why is that?

[scott]

kind of off topic, but your post reminds me of the following verses:

mt 7:13-14
13You can enter God's Kingdom only through the narrow gate. The highway to hell is broad, and its gate is wide for the many who choose the easy way. 14But the gateway to life is small, and the road is narrow, and only a few ever find it.

your definition of Christians doesn't match the bible's definition. The church's are loaded with false converts.



Here's what the bible says about that:

1. Mt 5:27-28- You have heard that the law of Moses says, "Do not commit adultery"28 But I (Jesus) say, anyone who even looks at a woman with lust in his eye has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

God is perfect and his standards are high, so lust=adultery.

2. One of the commandments is thou shall not bear false witness (lie). I'm sure you have done that.

3. Since I'm sure your a liar just like the rest of us, it's hard for me to believe that you have never stolen even something small.

4. As far as murder, Jesus said hate is comparable to Murder.

5. Have you ever used God's name in vain? That's called blasphemy and it's also a sin.

So at a minimum according to the bible you are more than likely are a lying, thieving, blaspheming, adulterer at heart.


I have all the respect in the world for you Scott, but you are just as much a sinner as the rest of us.

I'll accept that I'm just as much a sinner as anyone else. So then if I'm on par with other sinners, who are stringent believers in the faith... what purpose does the faith serve?

[Phenomanul]

I didn't make an interpretation on who wasn't or wasn't a Christian. If someone said they were a Christian, I took their word for it.

Again - maybe they are "bad Christians" or don't follow the Christian example - but they believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and Savior of Man. Their being able to live a Christian lifestyle sounds like a problem of the Christian faith failing to properly train it's pupil's in basic civil obedience, as atheists don't have the same problems with following the law. Tell me, why is that?


The verse 2centsworth quoted 'wide is the path that leads to destruction but narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life' pretty much answers your question. Not everyone lives a righteous life.

Many Christians are hearers of the 'word' but not faithful practitioners... besides, you don't honestly believe most people will come out and participate in a study (which if you followed the scientific method -- they should have had no clue what it was about), claim they were Christians, and then turn around and tell you about all of their mishaps and miscues... much less link it to their claim of the Faith.

Again, that type of study is very, very, very, difficult to quantify... it just is.

[Phenomanul]

I'll accept that I'm just as much a sinner as anyone else. So then if I'm on par with other sinners, who are stringent believers in the faith... what purpose does the faith serve?

Following my post above, Faith serves to align our wills with the will of GOD.

It serves to strengthen those attributes which allow us to impact others.

It fulfills our longing to be accepted and loved no matter the circumstance... when and only when we genuinely seek forgiveness.

It serves to provide the hectic frenetic pace of our lives the 'peace that passes understanding.'

It serves to give us wisdom when our own is likely to fail...

There are many purposes fulfilled by Faith.

[td4mvp21]

For those of you who say you don't believe without seeing: we can't see your brain, so why should we believe you have one?

[scott]

The verse 2centsworth quoted 'wide is the path that leads to destruction but narrow is the gate that leads to eternal life' pretty much answers your question. Not everyone lives a righteous life.

Many Christians are hearers of the 'word' but not faithful practitioners... besides you don't honestly believe most people will come out and participate in a study (which if you followed the scientific method -- they should have had no clue what it was about), claim they were Christians, and then turn around and tell you about all of their mishaps and miscues... much less link it to their claim of the Faith.

Again, that type of study is very, very, very, difficult to quantify... it just is.

They are in jail... I don't think, as a whole, they are bashful when it comes to their "mishaps and miscues". I suppose it is possible that the survey participants were lying - maybe the were hoping the warden would let 'em go if they claimed to be Christians... but I doubt it, especially to the degree required to significantly skew the data.

This type of study is fairly simple to quantify, despite your disbelief in its results. There are several surveys available in which inmates are asked their religious identification both upon their incarceration and during. The results are strinkingly similar in all surveys. But for all I know, maybe atheists are out snorting crack off the asses of hookers speeding down the highway littering on the way to kill a bunch of people - they just must be better at not getting caught. Meanwhile, those who do get caught decide to lie about their religious affiliation for fear of... who knows?

[Guru of Nothing]

For those of you who say you don't believe without seeing: we can't see your brain, so why should we believe you have one?

Do you have a brain?

ETA: Crap, I missed some context. My bad.

[scott]

Following my post above, Faith serves to align our wills with the will of GOD's.

And what explicit purpose does that serve?


It serves to strengthen those attributes which allow us to impact others.

It fulfills our longing to be accepted and loved no matter the circumstance... when and only when we genuinely seek forgiveness.

It serves to provide the hectic frenetic pace of our lives the 'peace that passes understanding.'

It serves to give us wisdom when our own is likely to fail...



All noble causes, and like I said earlier in this thread - people should believe in what makes them feel good and get through life. But none of these are things that implicitly require the Christian faith. Certainly not to the degree where we should teach Christianity in public schools or have government promoting of religion. That's all I've ever asked for, and yet many continue to continually push for state religion in one form or another.

[Phenomanul]

They are in jail... I don't think, as a whole, they are bashful when it comes to their "mishaps and miscues". I suppose it is possible that the survey participants were lying - maybe the were hoping the warden would let 'em go if they claimed to be Christians... but I doubt it, especially to the degree required to significantly skew the data.

This type of study is fairly simple to quantify, despite your disbelief in its results. There are several surveys available in which inmates are asked their religious identification both upon their incarceration and during. The results are strinkingly similar in all surveys. But for all I know, maybe atheists are out snorting crack off the asses of hookers speeding down the highway littering on the way to kill a bunch of people - they just must be better at not getting caught. Meanwhile, those who do get caught decide to lie about their religious affiliation for fear of... who knows?

Again I come to the same conclusion: that this sort of study is more complicated than it seems...

BTW Stalin and Lenin were die-hard athiests... And yet 40 million murders are attributed to Stalin alone. I wouldn't dare compare the tendencies of other athiests and equate them to Stalin's... Likewise you can't go to a prison and expect that the tendencies of Christians would be similar to the pool of inmates present in the slammer...

Did you apply a statistical ANOVA test?? that is, did you correct the percentages of your results by the ratio of Christians and Atheists not in jail. And factor out whether or not many became Christians while riding out their prison terms...

There are other studies (conducted by Prison Fellowship ministries) that show that the recidivism rates for a sample pool of about 700,000 inmates ministered by the program was markedly less than the rate for those not ministered. That sort of study takes out the 'intangible' question of whether or not the person actually 'converted' and simply sets out to show whether or not the program was having a meaningful impact on the lives of the ministered...

The lone variable in question was... after leaving prison, did the person fall back to his old habits and end up in jail again or did they reinsert themselves back into society without criminal relapse?

[Guru of Nothing]

Put me in prison and I'd believe in God, because he would represent the best option available.

[Phenomanul]

And what explicit purpose does that serve?



All noble causes, and like I said earlier in this thread - people should believe in what makes them feel good and get through life. But none of these are things that implicitly require the Christian faith. Certainly not to the degree where we should teach Christianity in public schools or have government promoting of religion. That's all I've ever asked for, and yet many continue to continually push for state religion in one form or another.


Like I've also mentioned in this thread... I'm not a proponent of the union of Church and State... the Bible actually does provide a stand on this.... We are not the like Israelites who lived under GOD's direct authority... a true theocratic state... prophets only relayed GOD's message... but had no authority of their own to govern the people. We are more like the Jews living under Roman rule when Jesus was questioned about Roman taxation... and Jesus asked, "whose face appears on the coin?" They responded, "Caesar's." Jesus then answered, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and give to GOD what is GOD's"....

I do however, believe we have every right to shape the laws by which we live by... it is a Democratic country after all, and just like I have the right to fight for the lives of the unborn... others can fight for their pro-abortion causes... the will of the public will decide... Again, that's the way it works... a popularity contest if you will.... in the end there are laws that I will dislike and laws that I will like... but I will have to adhere to all the laws regardless of my opinion.

[Phenomanul]

Put me in prison and I'd believe in God, because he would represent the best option available.


Be careful what you wish for... :cop

[2centsworth]

I'll accept that I'm just as much a sinner as anyone else. So then if I'm on par with other sinners, who are stringent believers in the faith... what purpose does the faith serve?
You are not on par with stringent believers in the faith because stringent believers have righteousness through their faith.

With that being said, your definition of stringent believers sounds more libral than the bible's definition.


stringent believers genuinely repent of their sins, turn from their sins, and try their best to be led by the Holy Spirit.

Here's what the bible has to say about so-called Christians who continue in the ways of the world.

1 John 3:
8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

[clambake]

Gods loves all mankind, good and evil, right? So christians just tell themselves " I have to stop sinning" because I'm very religious? Catholics go to confession to wash away their sins. Fresh start for everybody? If it is that easy, why stop sin? Thirty seconds of repent cleans the slate? Is that what people should tell themselves to do? Is that the spiritual out clause?

[Spurminator]

Your continued mistaken assumption is that Christians are pious because they feel they have to be.

It's an old question. "If you can be forgiven for your sins, why not keep sinning and ask for forgiveness?"

Without even going into how God knows our hearts and that obviously anyone who lived that lifestyle would not be sincere in his prayers for forgiveness, the answer is simple: If you love God, you want to please Him.

Like I said before, if your Christian lifestyle is based on the fear of damnation or any other consequences, you won't maintain that lifestyle very long. That's one of the main reasons I don't like "Fire and Brimstone" pastors... I feel they are counterproductive.

[Mr. Peabody]

I'm in the 49 percentile, BTW,

How remarkably average of you.

[DarkReign]

You are not on par with stringent believers in the faith because stringent believers have righteousness through their faith.

Jehovah's Witness

[clambake]

But are you not saying that you have to be devoutly religious to end up in the kingdom of God? Are you not saying that God knows ones sincerety? If all of this is true, then why is so much emphisis placed on repent?

[Spurminator]

Repenting is changing your heart and making an effort to change your lifestyle. It's not just some kind of verbal contract with your fingers crossed behind your back.

If you rape 2,000 babies and you are truly sorry for it, and you beg God for forgiveness and you change your baby-raping ways, then you can enter the Kingdom.

[clambake]

If you change your ways and are truly, truly sorry for it, then God knows, right? Why beg?

[2centsworth]

Gods loves all mankind, good and evil, right? So christians just tell themselves " I have to stop sinning" because I'm very religious? Catholics go to confession to wash away their sins. Fresh start for everybody? If it is that easy, why stop sin? Thirty seconds of repent cleans the slate? Is that what people should tell themselves to do? Is that the spiritual out clause?
It would help you if you read the New Testament. However, an answer to most of your questions is absolutely not. Read Romans 6-8 and you will get most of your answers. Here's an excerpt of what you will learn:


Romans 6
1What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? 2By no means! We died to sin; how can we live in it any longer?

True repentence is a lot more than what you described. Explained thoroughly in the bible.

[2centsworth]

But are you not saying that you have to be devoutly religious to end up in the kingdom of God? Are you not saying that God knows ones sincerety? If all of this is true, then why is so much emphisis placed on repent?
you have to know the meaning of repentence in the bible. It means turning away from your sins and doing your best to live in the spirit.

[2centsworth]

Jehovah's Witnessit's clear scott and I are talking about Christian believers.

[clambake]

You are again asking me to read something that I believe as purely fantastical. The topic of the thread.

God is all knowing, right? So God creates a son to die for everyones sins, knowing he will be crucified, knowing sin will not end. You would think God would not waste time or his precious son on worthless endevors.

[2centsworth]

Like I said before, if your Christian lifestyle is based on the fear of damnation or any other consequences, you won't maintain that lifestyle very long. That's one of the main reasons I don't like "Fire and Brimstone" pastors... I feel they are counterproductive.

lifestyle should be based on appreciation. I don't like the God is going to make my life happy message either. It leads people to Christ for selfish reasons and typically lacks genuine repentance.

[Spurminator]

If you change your ways and are truly, truly sorry for it, then God knows, right? Why beg?

If you're truly sorry, you will ask for forgiveness... There's no decision making process there.

It's not like people say, "Man, I screwed up... I feel that I've really let God down. I wonder if I should tell Him I'm sorry?"

[2centsworth]

You are again asking me to read something that I believe as purely fantastical. The topic of the thread.

Educated debate comes from knowing the otherside of the argument.


God is all knowing, right? So God creates a son to die for everyones sins, knowing he will be crucified, knowing sin will not end. You would think God would not waste time or his precious son on worthless endevors.
It's called Grace.

[clambake]

Did God apologize to Jesus for creating him for the purpose of being killed by sinners who will kill him and then continue to sin?

How does any of this make sense? I guess it's good reading if your into this stuff.

[2centsworth]

Did God apologize to Jesus for creating him for the purpose of being killed by sinners who will kill him and then continue to sin?

How does any of this make sense? I guess it's good reading if your into this stuff.
Jesus paid the price of the Sins of the people who repent and turn away from their sins. In the bible it says if you continue to live in sin you will perish. Don't listen to the sin all week and ask for forgiveness on the weekend messages. They are unbiblical.

[clambake]

You say if you truly change your ways, turn away from sin, then you will be forgiven. Now you say Jesus "died" for the sins of those who repented and turned away from their sins.

You can't tell me that makes any sense! Does that sound any more logical than "spells or magic potions"?

[2centsworth]

You say if you truly change your ways, turn away from sin, then you will be forgiven. Now you say Jesus "died" for the sins of those who repented and turned away from their sins.

You can't tell me that makes any sense! Does that sound any more logical than "spells or magic potions"?
it's not that difficult to understand. Here's an analogy to help you understand.

Let's say you are driving through a school zone going 60 mph and you get arrested. The fine is more money than you can afford, but someone you don't even know pays the fine for you.

Jesus will pay the fine for our transgressions if we accept it.

As a Christian you appreciate the gift you have been given and with the help of the holy spirit you will have the strength to overcome sins that lead to death.

[Phenomanul]

it's not that difficult to understand. Here's an analogy to help you understand.

Let's say you are driving through a school zone going 60 mph and you get arrested. The fine is more money than you can afford, but someone you don't even know pays the fine for you.

Jesus will pay the fine for our transgressions if we accept it.

As a Christian you appreciate the gift you have been given and with the help of the holy spirit you will have the strength to overcome sins that lead to death.


To extend on that analogy.... and to help answer your question clambake... Jesus died for all sins... unfortunately not everyone accepts this gift.... some people reject it. As such, they will end up having to pay the price of their own sin... the price is 'death'... eternal separation from GOD.

[Guru of Nothing]

If you rape 2,000 babies and you are truly sorry for it, and you beg God for forgiveness and you change your baby-raping ways, then you can enter the Kingdom.

... but if I drink a cheap beer and go hmmmm? ... it's off to hell I go.

[Guru of Nothing]

Be careful what you wish for... :cop

I wish God would give you another clue.

How's that?

[Phenomanul]

... but if I drink a cheap beer and go hmmmm? ... it's off to hell I go.


Jesus drank wine.... consuming alcohol in and of itself is not a sin...

Abusing alcohol is... you are still responsible for your actions even if under the influence...

[Spurminator]

... but if I drink a cheap beer and go hmmmm? ... it's off to hell I go.

Eh, drinking a cheap beer is a perfectly reasonable way to relax after raping babies... I don't think you could be blamed.

[Phenomanul]

I wish God would give you another clue.

How's that?


You said it not me... "Put me in prison and I'd believe in God, because he would represent the best option available."

so I said, "be careful what you wish for..."

[Guru of Nothing]

You said it not me... "Put me in prison and I'd believe in God, because he would represent the best option available."

so I said, "be careful what you wish for..."

Despite your sarcasm, I still believe that God can hear me.

[scott]

Again I come to the same conclusion: that this sort of study is more complicated than it seems...

BTW Stalin and Lenin were die-hard athiests... And yet 40 million murders are attributed to Stalin alone. I wouldn't dare compare the tendencies of other athiests and equate them to Stalin's... Likewise you can't go to a prison and expect that the tendencies of Christians would be similar to the pool of inmates present in the slammer...

Just as I wouldn't attribute all the henious acts of Christians or members of any faith to that faith as a whole. I never said that all Christians were criminals.


Did you apply a statistical ANOVA test?? that is, did you correct the percentages of your results by the ratio of Christians and Atheists not in jail. And factor out whether or not many became Christians while riding out their prison terms...

Of course - the statistic isn't that there are 37 times the number of Christians in jail as there are Atheists. In fact, the Christians outnumber atheists 401 to 1 in jail. And the inmates are surveyed upon their enterance to prison - so that eliminates the "converted in prison" dilemma. Maybe they converted on their way to the courthouse though. My work was peer reviewed by theoretical economists and econometricians alike - you aren't going to get me on a silly statistical error.


There are other studies (conducted by Prison Fellowship ministries) that show that the recidivism rates for a sample pool of about 700,000 inmates ministered by the program was markedly less than the rate for those not ministered. That sort of study takes out the 'intangible' question of whether or not the person actually 'converted' and simply sets out to show whether or not the program was having a meaningful impact on the lives of the ministered...

The lone variable in question was... after leaving prison, did the person fall back to his old habits and end up in jail again or did they reinsert themselves back into society without criminal relapse?

First of all... link? Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to read it since this is obvious a topic of interest for me.

Naturally, I would expect that the people who make an effort to "get into their faith" to be less prone to repeating a crime than those who don't, just as I'd expect those people who choose to pursue an education versus those who do not. I suspect the difference is in the sentiment, not in the faith. I would be curious to compare the reincarceration rates for those in these programs versus the self identified atheists.

As I've said before, the study is not to say that people commit crimes because they are Christian or Theist, but that being one doesn't make one any less prone to bad behavior. The demographics of atheists (higher average levels of education, higher average incomes) indicate causality more so than religious preference.

[scott]

You are not on par with stringent believers in the faith because stringent believers have righteousness through their faith.

Sorry, that's a non-starter for me. Sounds akin to saying "you aren't as good as Johnny because you aren't Johnny." You've done nothing to explain why Johnny is inherently better.


With that being said, your definition of stringent believers sounds more libral than the bible's definition.


stringent believers genuinely repent of their sins, turn from their sins, and try their best to be led by the Holy Spirit.

Here's what the bible has to say about so-called Christians who continue in the ways of the world.

1 John 3:
8He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. 9No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God's seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not a child of God; nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

I'll leave others to judge who and who isn't in the stringent believer club. All I do is define a Christian as someone who believes that Jesus Christ is the Savior of man and son of God. They degree to which someone is a proper Christian is beyond my realm of interest.

[2centsworth]

Sorry, that's a non-starter for me. Sounds akin to saying "you aren't as good as Johnny because you aren't Johnny." You've done nothing to explain why Johnny is inherently better.

No one is good. The difference between you and someone of faith is the someone of "true" faith has forgiveness through the blood of Jesus Christ.


I'll leave others to judge who and who isn't in the stringent believer club. All I do is define a Christian as someone who believes that Jesus Christ is the Savior of man and son of God. They degree to which someone is a proper Christian is beyond my realm of interest.

There's no debate, it's spelled out in the bible. The devil believes in Jesus Christ but it doesn't make him a Christian.

[jochhejaam]

Sounds akin to saying "you aren't as good as Johnny because you aren't Johnny." You've done nothing to explain why Johnny is inherently better.

ROMANS 5
12Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned-- 13for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. 14Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam, who was a pattern of the one to come. - Romans 5 (NIV)

17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. - Romans 5 (NIV)



We all start out on equal footing having an intrinsic, engendered sin nature common to all from birth. We're all in the same boat and the idea is to get to the "promised land". We can say that there is an impassable gulf of water that divides us on the boat from that promised land. Because of their love for their creation God sent his Son who willingly became our sacrifice on the Cross, through this sacrifice Christ paid the price for mans sins and bridged the gulf that separates mankind from the promised land.

The difference between you and Johnny is that he has freely accepted the fact that Christ is the Saviour of the World and because of this has been rescued from the boat and has been lifted over the expanse that separates us from the "promised land", also known as eternal life.

The bridge can be traversed by any and all who choose to do so.

[smeagol]

I'll leave others to judge who and who isn't in the stringent believer club. All I do is define a Christian as someone who believes that Jesus Christ is the Savior of man and son of God.

Narrow definition of a Chrstian, IMHO. It's like defining a philosopher as someone who read one of Aristotles' works.


They degree to which someone is a proper Christian is beyond my realm of interest.

And this is why your study's conclusions do not mean much (please don't get all aggressive on me for saying this).

[PinkBunny]

I used to believe the Bible but then I found it difficult to stone myself to death.

[Phenomanul]

Just as I wouldn't attribute all the henious acts of Christians or members of any faith to that faith as a whole. I never said that all Christians were criminals.



Of course - the statistic isn't that there are 37 times the number of Christians in jail as there are Atheists. In fact, the Christians outnumber atheists 401 to 1 in jail. And the inmates are surveyed upon their enterance to prison - so that eliminates the "converted in prison" dilemma. Maybe they converted on their way to the courthouse though. My work was peer reviewed by theoretical economists and econometricians alike - you aren't going to get me on a silly statistical error.


First of all... link? Not that I don't believe you, but I'd like to read it since this is obvious a topic of interest for me.

Naturally, I would expect that the people who make an effort to "get into their faith" to be less prone to repeating a crime than those who don't, just as I'd expect those people who choose to pursue an education versus those who do not. I suspect the difference is in the sentiment, not in the faith. I would be curious to compare the reincarceration rates for those in these programs versus the self identified atheists.

As I've said before, the study is not to say that people commit crimes because they are Christian or Theist, but that being one doesn't make one any less prone to bad behavior. The demographics of atheists (higher average levels of education, higher average incomes) indicate causality more so than religious preference.


I've already told you that the statistical error IS the very basis of who you've defined to be a Christian. Particularly because you are using this criteria to say that "Christians are 37 times more likely to end up in jail than an athiest".... Faith is not one that can be simply stated... it is one that is lived out... which is why the sentiment stuff is extraneous. The way GOD sees it, according to HIS scripture, either you live like a Christian or you don't...

But whatever... you are inclined to believe whatever you want... just remember that one day (whether you choose to believe it or not) you will face divine justice... and you will be held accountable for 'smearing' the Name of Jesus Christ...

For the data on those other studies... Google Prison Fellowship.

[clambake]

You say I will be held accountable for "smearing" the name of Jesus Christ? I just need more than words in some book to convince me. Your retort will be for me to read some passage in that fairy tale. How does one admit that parts of this book are not true but think that some parts are? Don't you realize how that makes you sound? I truly do not mean anything personal, but could you please start using the brain that you say God gave you? The new testament? What, you mean forget that horseshit that came first?

[Spurminator]

How does one admit that parts of this book are not true but think that some parts are? Don't you realize how that makes you sound?

When did one admit that?

Believe what you want, man. If you think it's a fairy tale, that's your prerogative. You clearly see faith as some kind of mental weakness, and if that's the case you should probably stay away for the time being and not risk damaging your ego.

[Phenomanul]

You say I will be held accountable for "smearing" the name of Jesus Christ? I just need more than words in some book to convince me. Your retort will be for me to read some passage in that fairy tale. How does one admit that parts of this book are not true but think that some parts are? Don't you realize how that makes you sound? I truly do not mean anything personal, but could you please start using the brain that you say God gave you? The new testament? What, you mean forget that horseshit that came first?

I've already stated somewhere on this thread... if not already stated in multiple parts of this forum... that I believe the Bible is the divinely inspired Word of GOD.

The Old Testament from Genesis, and other books including Ezekiel, Daniel, Zachariah, Isaiah.. all point to Jesus Christ. I'm not discounting, or ignoring the Old Testament at all... it is essential in describing what Christ's purpose is.

[DarkReign]

I used to believe the Bible but then I found it difficult to stone myself to death.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

:tu

[scott]

And this is why your study's conclusions do not mean much (please don't get all aggressive on me for saying this).

The study's conclusion are that being a Christian, as I have defined it, doesn't necessarily make you a good person. Atheists, who don't believe that Christ was anything more than a guy with some nice sentiments (if that), manage to behave themselves socially without having to go through the rigors of faith. The conclusion is that maybe it isn't being a "good" Christian that makes people good - but the factors which good Atheists and good Christians have in common. Of course, that defeats a large basis of the Christian faith, so I wouldn't expect you to agree with that.

So, I'll ask... why is it Atheists manage to stay out of jail?

[scott]

I've already told you that the statistical error IS the very basis of who you've defined to be a Christian. Particularly because you are using this criteria to say that "Christians are 37 times more likely to end up in jail than an athiest".... Faith is not one that can be simply stated... it is one that is lived out... which is why the sentiment stuff is extraneous. The way GOD sees it, according to HIS scripture, either you live like a Christian or you don't...

Maybe the statistical error is your inability to definitions set forth without interjecting your own and getting fussy about them. If believing in God is what it takes for you to be a good person, then I continue to encourage your religious beliefs. Just keep in mind that some of us don't need them to live a moral lifestyle.


But whatever... you are inclined to believe whatever you want... just remember that one day (whether you choose to believe it or not) you will face divine justice... and you will be held accountable for 'smearing' the Name of Jesus Christ...

For the data on those other studies... Google Prison Fellowship.



Okay fine. One day you will be held accountable for preaching against the Flying Spaghetti Monster. Booga booga.

[scott]

Narrow definition of a Chrstian, IMHO. It's like defining a philosopher as someone who read one of Aristotles' works.

It isn't like that at all, smeagol. Aristotle isn't the basis for the entire field of philosophy, but Jesus Christ is the basis for Christianity.

I think it's more like defining a Darwinist as someone who believes in the works of Darwin.

[mookie2001]

Jesus Christ is the basis for Christianity.
whottt?
does bob stoopes know about this?

[scott]

The difference between you and Johnny is that he has freely accepted the fact that Christ is the Saviour of the World and because of this has been rescued from the boat and has been lifted over the expanse that separates us from the "promised land", also known as eternal life.

The bridge can be traversed by any and all who choose to do so.

Not according to your friends in this thread.

[scott]

For the data on those other studies... Google Prison Fellowship.

About 5.4 million results for this search... care to help me out with a link to the actual study?

[2centsworth]

Not according to your friends in this thread.
Believing is more than just going to church and saying I believe. Genuine Repentance, a turning from your sins, is also required.

[clambake]

The topic of the thread, people! Lets update this book. The talking snake is now a cab driver, make that a pakistani cab driver. The burning bush is now a self contained gas fireplace. Noahs ark.......how did they have enough food for 40 days and 40 nights? Lions and tigers, i'm pretty sure, eat meat! So after the rain, where did all the water go? Lets say it evaporated due to global warming. Parting of the red sea? Lets say army corp of engineers. A pregnant virgin? I'll need to think about that one. (thou shalt not commit adultury and thou shalt not covet thy neighbors wife) I'll leave that alone for now. Three wise men bearing gifts? This one is easy. They are now refered to as DC lobbyist. Oh, turning water into wine. I want to party with that guy! Feel free, comment or add to these changes. It might help make it more believable.

What parts of the bible do you find hilarious?

[Phenomanul]

Believing is more than just going to church and saying I believe. Genuine Repentance, a turning from your sins, is also required.


scott prefers her simple definition so that her conclusion has any merit...

That is her perogative... And I'm sorry if she doesn't like it...


scott,
I'm a Christian... and I'm telling you what that stands for...
Since you are not a Christian, how then can you define what being a Christian is... and get 'fussy' because us Christians don't agree with you???

[smeagol]

The study's conclusion are that being a Christian, as I have defined it, doesn't necessarily make you a good person.

That's why the conclusions of your study have little meaning. You chose a meaning of Christiniaty that means nothing. It does not define Christians, but for a small group of Protestants, I guess.



The conclusion is that maybe it isn't being a "good" Christian that makes people good - but the factors which good Atheists and good Christians have in common. Of course, that defeats a large basis of the Christian faith, so I wouldn't expect you to agree with that.

Atheist can be just as good or better than Christians. I don't disagree with that.

[jochhejaam]

Believing is more than just going to church and saying I believe. Genuine Repentance, a turning from your sins, is also required.
Right, and that calls for a contrite conversation between the repenter and Jesus Christ, no exceptions.

[Guru of Nothing]

We all start out on equal footing having an intrinsic, engendered sin nature common to all from birth.

Do you have children? Have you witnessed the birth of a child?

[jochhejaam]

Do you have children? Have you witnessed the birth of a child?
Yes to both GN.

[Extra Stout]

The Bible is clear that a non-beliver can live a moral life (by our standards). It also is clear that the standard to be justified before God is complete moral perfection, and that any sins require propitiation.

[scott]

scott prefers her simple definition so that her conclusion has any merit...

That is her perogative... And I'm sorry if she doesn't like it...

How many women do you know named scott?

Next, I'll ask these questions:

What do you call the people who believe Jesus Christ is the son of God and Savior of mankind, but at times fall victim to temptation and get caught in their transgressions and then incarcerated?

Since you call yourself Christian, I can presume that you have never sinned since you have become a Christian?

The bible outlines many sins that are not illegal but are worse than the sins the some people end up in jail for. You seem awefully cavalier in deciding who is a Christian and who is not, based on (admit it) your definition of what a Christian is. Not all Christians share your definition. Some faiths feel that Christianity is about acts, some feel it is about faith, many believe its about both.



scott,
I'm a Christian... and I'm telling you what that stands for...
Since you are not a Christian, how then can you define what being a Christian is... and get 'fussy' because us Christians don't agree with you???

The people who have been jailed identify themselves as Christians, who are you to judge they are not? The people who identify themselves as Christians but you say are something else obviously have a different definition of Christianity than you do. They can say the same as you "I'm a Christian and I'm telling you what that stands for..." and they may have gathered that definition from the very book you have.

So, tell me then - what makes a prisoner calling himself a Christian and then praying for forgiveness any different from a Christian who lusts after his neighbors wife in moments of weakness, but prays for forgiveness?

As 2cents said: I'm most likely a liar, thief, blasphermer and adulterer at heart (of course, saying this without knowing anything I do - but that is besides the point) - a sinner just like the rest of "us" (which since it was 2cents saying it, I assumed he meant Christians). And yet you have the audacity to judge the faith of those who are jailed for lesser sins? How does your God feel about your judgements. God or no God - it is not my role on earth to Judge the faith of others. Apparently many of you "Judge not lest ye be Judged" folks don't agree (Back to the original Topic: is the Bible literally true? Is this part exempt from truth? It appears maybe so).

One more question... why is it Atheists (presumably the ultimate of all sins) manage to keep themselves out of jail?

[Oh, Gee!!]

The Bible is clear that a non-beliver can live a moral life (by our standards). It also is clear that the standard to be justified before God is complete moral perfection, and that any sins require propitiation.

the Bible also says not to covet my neighbor's wife. Well, my neighbor isn't married.

[scott]

That's why the conclusions of your study have little meaning. You chose a meaning of Christiniaty that means nothing. It does not define Christians, but for a small group of Protestants, I guess.

Tell you what smeagol - give me another word to use for those who self-indentify themselves as Christians, and I will be happy to use that word instead.





Atheist can be just as good or better than Christians. I don't disagree with that.

Then there is no conflict - as I've said numerous times in this thread, people should believe whatever they like and that I respect all religions for the common thread among them: social morality. All I want is for it to be kept out of public institutions like schools or courthouses. Some people obviously have a problem with that.

[Extra Stout]

the Bible also says not to covet my neighbor's wife. Well, my neighbor isn't married.
What about your other neighbor?

[pizzalover]

I would rather slit my wrists then believe anything from the bible! :lol
In fact I would rather be in hell then have to be in heaven with religious freaks!

you can see I in no way believe in religion by my lack of fear from god. I don't expect anyone to send me to some mystical lands when i die, when I die, I expect to never exist again.

[scott]

And once more for clarification. The survey data I used asked prisoner's their religious affiliation, those who responded "Christian" or any church within the Christian faith (Catholic, Baptist, etc) were lumped in the "Christian" bucket. I didn't interpret any data nor did I decide who was a Christian and who was not. The same is true of the survey data used to identify the proportion of Christians in the general US population.

When someone tells me they are a Christian, I only assume the broadest definition of the term: Professing belief in Jesus as Christ or following the religion based on the life and teachings of Jesus (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=Christian).

I've never in my life identified anyone as a Christian unless they have identified themselves as Christians. So again, tell me where the flaw in allowing people to identify themselves is?

However, should you decide that identifying oneself as a Christian does not make on a Christian, than you should never say anything to the effect of or relating to the number of Christians on this planet, as all such data is based on self-identification only.

[pussyface]

Greetings...

Is there any chance we could get someone to make a list of everyone who responded "yes" to the question about the Bible being literally accurate?

I would like to know who these people are so that I can avoid engaging myself in any conversation with them (about politics, basketball, etc) as they have no apparent interest in logic, reason, or the pursuit of knowledge.

...honestly, no disrespect intended, but I sincerely am scared of these people and their Taliban-like perception of the world.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=pussyface]Greetings...

Is there any chance we could get someone to make a list of everyone who responded "yes" to the question about the Bible being literally accurate?

I would like to know who these people are so that I can avoid engaging myself in any conversation with them (about politics, basketball, etc) as they have no apparent interest in logic, reason, or the pursuit of knowledge.
Here's a thought pf, make the list yourself and put them on ignore or if it's too distressful (trying to help you with this) avoid the forum.


...honestly, no disrespect intended, but I sincerely am scared of these people and their Taliban-like perception of the world.
Educate me pf, since it's obvious that you're a logical and reasonable person who pursues knowledge perhaps you wouldn't mind giving a logical, reasonable, and knowledgeable explanation on why you believe Bible literalists are Taliban-like.

p.s. (Avoiding vague, nebulous, obscure, unintelligible, foggy, indistinguishable, and uncertain reasoning in your response would be appreciated)

[jochhejaam]

My ALU indicates that Bible literalists are Taliban-like because each interprets its spiritual literature, literally.


My CPU indicates that you are stupid.
Excellent in depth analysis of how the Bible literalists and the fundamentalist Islamic malitia members are to be paralleled.

That doesn't come close to explaining how Bible Literalists have a "taliban-like" perception of the world.

[Leetonidas]

A book that contradicts itself so damn much can only be false. The Bible is a piece of shit.

[Leetonidas]

Here's a list of the Bible's contradictions...


1. God is satisfied with his works
Gen 1:31
God is dissatisfied with his works.
Gen 6:6

2. God dwells in chosen temples
2 Chron 7:12,16
God dwells not in temples
Acts 7:48

3. God dwells in light
Tim 6:16
God dwells in darkness
1 Kings 8:12/ Ps 18:11/ Ps 97:2

4. God is seen and heard
Ex 33:23/ Ex 33:11/ Gen 3:9,10/ Gen 32:30/ Is 6:1/
Ex 24:9-11
God is invisible and cannot be heard
John 1:18/ John 5:37/ Ex 33:20/ 1 Tim 6:16

5. God is tired and rests
Ex 31:17/ Jer 15:6
God is never tired and never rests
Is 40:28

6. God is everywhere present, sees and knows all things
Prov 15:3/ Ps 139:7-10/ Job 34:22,21
God is not everywhere present, neither sees nor knows all
things
Gen 11:5/ Gen 18:20,21/ Gen 3:8

7. God knows the hearts of men
Acts 1:24/ Ps 139:2,3
God tries men to find out what is in their heart
Deut 13:3/ Deut 8:2/ Gen 22:12

8. God is all powerful
Jer 32:27/ Matt 19:26
God is not all powerful
Judg 1:19

9. God is unchangeable
James 1:17/ Mal 3:6/ Ezek 24:14/ Num 23:19
God is changeable
Gen 6:6/ Jonah 3:10/ 1 Sam 2:30,31/ 2 Kings 20:1,4,5,6/
Ex 33:1,3,17,14

10. God is just and impartial
Ps 92:15/ Gen 18:25/ Deut 32:4/ Rom 2:11/ Ezek 18:25
God is unjust and partial
Gen 9:25/ Ex 20:5/ Rom 9:11-13/ Matt 13:12

11. God is the author of evil
Lam 3:38/ Jer 18:11/ Is 45:7/ Amos 3:6/ Ezek 20:25
God is not the author of evil
1 Cor 14:33/ Deut 32:4/ James 1:13

12. God gives freely to those who ask
James 1:5/ Luke 11:10
God withholds his blessings and prevents men from receiving
them
John 12:40/ Josh 11:20/ Is 63:17

13. God is to be found by those who seek him
Matt 7:8/ Prov 8:17
God is not to be found by those who seek him
Prov 1:28

14. God is warlike
Ex 15:3/ Is 51:15
God is peaceful
Rom 15:33/ 1 Cor 14:33

15. God is cruel, unmerciful, destructive, and ferocious
Jer 13:14/ Deut 7:16/ 1 Sam 15:2,3/ 1 Sam 6:19
God is kind, merciful, and good
James 5:11/ Lam 3:33/ 1 Chron 16:34/ Ezek 18:32/ Ps 145:9/
1 Tim 2:4/ 1 John 4:16/ Ps 25:8

16. God's anger is fierce and endures long
Num 32:13/ Num 25:4/ Jer 17:4
God's anger is slow and endures but for a minute
Ps 103:8/ Ps 30:5

17. God commands, approves of, and delights in burnt offerings,
sacrifices ,and holy days
Ex 29:36/ Lev 23:27/ Ex 29:18/ Lev 1:9
God disapproves of and has no pleasure in burnt offerings,
sacrifices, and holy days.
Jer 7:22/ Jer 6:20/ Ps 50:13,4/ Is 1:13,11,12

18. God accepts human sacrifices
2 Sam 21:8,9,14/ Gen 22:2/ Judg 11:30-32,34,38,39
God forbids human sacrifice
Deut 12:30,31

19. God tempts men
Gen 22:1/ 2 Sam 24:1/ Jer 20:7/ Matt 6:13
God tempts no man
James 1:13

20. God cannot lie
Heb 6:18
God lies by proxy; he sends forth lying spirits t deceive
2 Thes 2:11/ 1 Kings 22:23/ Ezek 14:9

21. Because of man's wickedness God destroys him
Gen 6:5,7
Because of man's wickedness God will not destroy him
Gen 8:21

22. God's attributes are revealed in his works.
Rom 1:20
God's attributes cannot be discovered
Job 11:7/ Is 40:28

23. There is but one God
Deut 6:4
There is a plurality of gods
Gen 1:26/ Gen 3:22/ Gen 18:1-3/ 1 John 5:7

Moral Precepts

24. Robbery commanded
Ex 3:21,22/ Ex 12:35,36
Robbery forbidden
Lev 19:13/ Ex 20:15

25. Lying approved and sanctioned
Josh 2:4-6/ James 2:25/ Ex 1:18-20/ 1 Kings 22:21,22
Lying forbidden
Ex 20:16/ Prov 12:22/ Rev 21:8

26. Hatred to the Edomite sanctioned
2 Kings 14:7,3
Hatred to the Edomite forbidden
Deut 23:7

27. Killing commanded
Ex 32:27
Killing forbidden
Ex 20:13

28. The blood-shedder must die
Gen 9:5,6
The blood-shedder must not die
Gen 4:15

29. The making of images forbidden
Ex 20:4
The making of images commanded
Ex 25:18,20

30. Slavery and oppression ordained
Gen 9:25/ Lev 25:45,46/ Joel 3:8
Slavery and oppression forbidden
Is 58:6/ Ex 22:21/ Ex 21:16/ Matt 23:10

31. Improvidence enjoyed
Matt 6:28,31,34/ Luke 6:30,35/ Luke 12:3
Improvidence condemned
1 Tim 5:8/ Prov 13:22

32. Anger approved
Eph 4:26
Anger disapproved
Eccl 7:9/ Prov 22:24/ James 1:20

33. Good works to be seen of men
Matt 5:16
Good works not to be seen of men
Matt 6:1

34. Judging of others forbidden
Matt 7:1,2
Judging of others approved
1 Cor 6:2-4/ 1 Cor 5:12

35. Christ taught non-resistance
Matt 5:39/ Matt 26:52
Christ taught and practiced physical resistance
Luke 22:36/ John 2:15

36. Christ warned his followers not to fear being killed
Luke 12:4
Christ himself avoided the Jews for fear of being killed
John 7:1

37. Public prayer sanctioned
1 Kings 8:22,54, 9:3
Public prayer disapproved
Matt 6:5,6

38. Importunity in prayer commended
Luke 18:5,7
Importunity in prayer condemned
Matt 6:7,8

39. The wearing of long hair by men sanctioned
Judg 13:5/ Num 6:5
The wearing of long hair by men condemned
1 Cor 11:14

40. Circumcision instituted
Gen 17:10
Circumcision condemned
Gal 5:2

41. The Sabbath instituted
Ex 20:8
The Sabbath repudiated
Is 1:13/ Rom 14:5/ Col 2:16

42. The Sabbath instituted because God rested on the seventh day
Ex 20:11
The Sabbath instituted because God brought the Israelites
out of Egypt
Deut 5:15

43. No work to be done on the Sabbath under penalty of death
Ex 31:15/ Num 15:32,36
Jesus Christ broke the Sabbath and justified his disciples in
the same
John 5:16/ Matt 12:1-3,5

44. Baptism commanded
Matt 28:19
Baptism not commanded
1 Cor 1:17,14

45. Every kind of animal allowed for food.
Gen 9:3/ 1 Cor 10:25/ Rom 14:14
Certain kinds of animals prohibited for food.
Deut 14:7,8

46. Taking of oaths sanctioned
Num 30:2/ Gen 21:23-24,31/ Gen 31:53/ Heb 6:13
Taking of oaths forbidden
Matt 5:34

47. Marriage approved
Gen 2:18/ Gen 1:28/ Matt 19:5/ Heb 13:4
Marriage disapproved
1 Cor 7:1/ 1 Cor 7:7,8

48. Freedom of divorce permitted
Deut 24:1/ Deut 21:10,11,14
Divorce restricted
Matt 5:32

49. Adultery forbidden
Ex 20:14/ Heb 13:4
Adultery allowed
Num 31:18/ Hos 1:2; 2:1-3

50. Marriage or cohabitation with a sister denounced
Deut 27:22/ Lev 20:17
Abraham married his sister and God blessed the union
Gen 20:11,12/ Gen 17:16

51. A man may marry his brother's widow
Deut 25:5
A man may not marry his brother's widow
Lev 20:21

52. Hatred to kindred enjoined
Luke 14:26
Hatred to kindred condemned
Eph 6:2/ Eph 5:25,29

53. Intoxicating beverages recommended
Prov 31:6,7/ 1 Tim 5:23/ Ps 104:15
Intoxicating beverages discountenanced
Prov 20:1/ Prov 23:31,32

54. It is our duty to obey our rulers, who are God's ministers
and punish evil doers only
Rom 13:1-3,6
It is not our duty to obey rulers, who sometimes punish the
good and receive unto themselves damnation therefor
Ex 1:17,20/ Dan 3:16,18/ Dan 6:9,7,10/ Acts 4:26,27/
Mark 12:38,39,40/ Luke 23:11,24,33,35

55. Women's rights denied
Gen 3:16/ 1 Tim 2:12/ 1 Cor 14:34/ 1 Pet 3:6
Women's rights affirmed
Judg 4:4,14,15/ Judg 5:7/ Acts 2:18/ Acts 21:9

56. Obedience to masters enjoined
Col 3:22,23/ 1 Pet 2:18
Obedience due to God only
Matt 4:10/ 1 Cor 7:23/ Matt 23:10

57. There is an unpardonable sin
Mark 3:29
There is not unpardonable sin
Acts 13:39

Historical Facts

58. Man was created after the other animals
Gen 1:25,26,27
Man was created before the other animals
Gen 2:18,19

59. Seed time and harvest were never to cease
Gen 8:22
Seed time and harvest did cease for seven years
Gen 41:54,56/ Gen 45:6

60. God hardened Pharaoh's heart
Ex 4:21/ Ed 9:12
Pharaoh hardened his own heart
Ex 8:15

61. All the cattle and horses in Egypt died
Ex 9:3,6/ 14:9
All the horses of Egypt did not die
Ex 14:9

62. Moses feared Pharaoh
Ex 2:14,15,23; 4:19
Moses did not fear Pharaoh
Heb 11:27

63. There died of the plague twenty-four thousand
Num 25:9
There died of the plague but twenty-three thousand
1 Cor 10:8

64. John the Baptist was Elias
Matt 11:14
John the Baptist was not Elias
John 1:21

65. The father of Joseph, Mary's husband was Jacob
Matt 1:16
The father of Mary's husband was Heli
Luke 3:23

66. The father of Salah was Arphaxad
Gen 11:12
The father of Salah was Cainan
Luke 3:35,36

67. There were fourteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from Abraham to David
Matt 1:2-6

68. There were fourteen generations from the Babylonian captivity
to Christ.
Matt 1:17
There were but thirteen generations from the Babylonian
captivity to Christ
Matt 1:12-16

69. The infant Christ was taken into Egypt
Matt 2:14,15,19,21,23
The infant Christ was not taken into Egypt
Luke 2:22, 39

70. Christ was tempted in the wilderness
Mark 1:12,13
Christ was not tempted in the wilderness
John 2:1,2

71. Christ preached his first sermon on the mount
Matt 5:1,2
Christ preached his first sermon on the plain
Luke 6:17,20

72. John was in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
Mark 1:14
John was not in prison when Jesus went into Galilee
John 1:43/ John 3:22-24

73. Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with a staff
and sandals
Mark 6:8,9
Christ's disciples were commanded to go forth with neither
staffs nor sandals.
Matt 10:9,10

74. A woman of Canaan besought Jesus
Matt 15:22
It was a Greek woman who besought Him
Mark 7:26

75. Two blind men besought Jesus
Matt 20:30
Only one blind man besought Him
Luke 18:35,38

76. Christ was crucified at the third hour
Mark 15:25
Christ was not crucified until the sixth hour
John 19:14,15

77. The two thieves reviled Christ.
Matt 27:44/ Mark 15:32
Only one of the thieves reviled Christ
Luke 23:39,40

78. Satan entered into Judas while at supper
John 13:27
Satan entered into him before the supper
Luke 22:3,4,7

79. Judas committed suicide by hanging
Matt 27:5
Judas did not hang himself, but died another way
Acts 1:18

80. The potter's field was purchased by Judas
Acts 1:18
The potter's field was purchased by the Chief Priests
Matt 27:6,7

81. There was but one woman who came to the sepulchre
John 20:1
There were two women who came to the sepulchre
Matt 28:1

82. There were three women who came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:1
There were more than three women who came to the sepulchre
Luke 24:10

83. It was at sunrise when they came to the sepulchre
Mark 16:2
It was some time before sunrise when they came.
John 20:1

84. There were two angels seen by the women at the sepulchre, and
they were standing up.
Luke 24:4
There was but one angel seen, and he was sitting down.
Matt 28:2,5

85. There were two angels seen within the sepulchre.
John 20:11,12
There was but one angel seen within the sepulchre
Mark 16:5

86. Christ was to be three days and three nights in the grave
Matt 12:40
Christ was but two days and two nights in the grave
Mark 15:25,42,44,45,46; 16:9>

87. Holy ghost bestowed at pentecost
Acts 1:8,5
Holy ghost bestowed before pentecost
John 20:22

88. The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go into Galilee
Matt 28:10
The disciples were commanded immediately after the
resurrection to go tarry at Jerusalem
Luke 24:49

89. Jesus first appeared to the eleven disciples in a room at
Jerusalem
Luke 24:33,36,37/ John 20:19
Jesus first appeared to the eleven on a mountain in Galilee
Matt 28:16,17

90. Christ ascended from Mount Olivet
Acts 1:9,12
Christ ascended from Bethany
Luke 24:50,51

91. Paul's attendants heard the miraculous voice, and stood
speechless
Acts 9:7
Paul's attendants heard not the voice and were prostrate
Acts 26:14

92. Abraham departed to go into Canaan
Gen 12:5
Abraham went not knowing where
Heb 11:8

93. Abraham had two sons
Gal 4:22
Abraham had but one son
Heb 11:17

94. Keturah was Abraham's wife
Gen 25:1
Keturah was Abraham's concubine
1 Chron 1:32

95. Abraham begat a son when he was a hundred years old, by the
interposition of Providence
Gen 21:2/ Rom 4:19/ Heb 11:12
Abraham begat six children more after he was a hundred years
old without any interposition of providence
Gen 25:1,2

96. Jacob bought a sepulchre from Hamor
Josh 24:32
Abraham bought it of Hamor
Acts 7:16

97. God promised the land of Canaan to Abraham and his seed
forever
Gen 13:14,15,17; 17:8
Abraham and his seed never received the promised land
Acts 7:5/ Heb 11:9,13

98. Goliath was slain by Elhanan
2 Sam 21:19 *note, was changed in translation to be
correct. Original manuscript was incorrect
The brother of Goliath was slain by Elhanan
1 Chron 20:5

99. Ahaziah began to reign in the twelfth year of Joram
2 Kings 8:25
Ahaziah began to reign in the eleventh year of Joram
2 Kings 9:29

100. Michal had no child
2 Sam 6:23
Michal had five children
2 Sam 21:8

101. David was tempted by the Lord to number Israel
2 Sam 24:1
David was tempted by Satan to number the people
1 Chron 21:1

102. The number of fighting men of Israel was 800,000; and of
Judah 500,000
2 Sam 24:9
The number of fighting men of Israel was 1,100,000; and of
Judah 470,000
1 Chron 21:5

103. David sinned in numbering the people
2 Sam 24:10
David never sinned, except in the matter of Uriah
1 Kings 15:5

104. One of the penalties of David's sin was seven years of
famine.
2 Sam 24:13
It was not seven years, but three years of famine
1 Chron 21:11,12

105. David took seven hundred horsemen
2 Sam 8:4
David took seven thousand horsemen
1 Chron 18:4

106. David bought a threshing floor for fifty shekels of silver
2 Sam 24:24
David bought the threshing floor for six hundred shekels of
gold
1 Chron 21:25

107. David's throne was to endure forever.
Ps 89:35-37
David's throne was cast down
Ps 89:44

Speculative Doctrines

108. Christ is equal with God
John 10:30/ Phil 2:5
Christ is not equal with God
John 14:28/ Matt 24:36

109. Jesus was all-powerful
Matt 28:18/ John 3:35
Jesus was not all-powerful
Mark 6:5

110. The law was superseded by the Christian dispensation
Luke 16:16/ Eph 2:15/ Rom 7:6
The law was not superseded by the Christian dispensation
Matt 5:17-19

111. Christ's mission was peace
Luke 2:13,14
Christ's mission was not peace
Matt 10:34

112. Christ received not testimony from man
John 5:33,34
Christ did receive testimony from man
John 15:27

113. Christ's witness of himself is true.
John 8:18,14
Christ's witness of himself is not true.
John 5:31

114. Christ laid down his life for his friends
John 15:13/ John 10:11
Christ laid down his life for his enemies
Rom 5:10

115. It was lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
John 19:7
It was not lawful for the Jews to put Christ to death
John 18:31

116. Children are punished for the sins of the parents
Ex 20:5
Children are not punished for the sins of the parents
Ezek 18:20

117. Man is justified by faith alone
Rom 3:20/ Gal 2:16/ Gal 3:11,12/ Rom 4:2
Man is not justified by faith alone
James 2:21,24/ Rom 2:13

118. It is impossible to fall from grace
John 10:28/ Rom 8:38,39
It is possible to fall from grace
Ezek 18:24/ Heb 6:4-6, 2 Pet 2:20,21

119. No man is without sin
1 Kings 8:46/ Prov 20:9/ Eccl 7:20/ Rom 3:10
Christians are sinless
1 John 3: 9,6,8

120. There is to be a resurrection of the dead
1 Cor 15:52/ Rev 20:12,13/ Luke 20:37/ 1 Cor 15:16
There is to be no resurrection of the dead
Job 7:9/ Eccl 9:5/ Is 26:14

121. Reward and punishment to be bestowed in this world
Prov 11:31
Reward and punishment to be bestowed in the next world
Rev 20:12/ Matt 16:27/ 2 Cor 5:10

122. Annihilation the portion of all mankind
Job 3: 11,13-17,19-22/ Eccl 9:5,10/ Eccl 3:19,20
Endless misery the portion of all mankind
Matt 25:46/ Rev 20:10,15/ Rev 14:11/ Dan 12:2

123. The Earth is to be destroyed
2 Pet 3:10/ Heb 1:11/ Rev 20:11
The Earth is never to be destroyed
Ps 104:5/ Eccl 1:4

124. No evil shall happen to the godly
Prov 12:21/ 1 Pet 3:13
Evil does happen to the godly
Heb 12:6/ Job 2:3,7

125. Worldly good and prosperity are the lot of the godly
Prov 12:21/ Ps 37:28,32,33,37/ Ps 1:1,3/ Gen 39:2/
Job 42:12
Worldly misery and destitution the lot of the godly
Heb 11:37,38/ Rev 7:14/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Luke 21:17

126. Worldly prosperity a reward of righteousness and a blessing
Mark 10:29,30/ Ps 37:25/ Ps 112:1,3/ Job 22:23,24/
Prov 15:6
Worldly prosperity a curse and a bar to future reward
Luke 6:20,24/ Matt 6:19,21/ Luke 16:22/ Matt 19:24/
Luke 6:24

127. The Christian yoke is easy
Matt 11:28,29,30
The Christian yoke is not easy
John 16:33/ 2 Tim 3:12/ Heb 12:6,8

128. The fruit of God's spirit is love and gentleness
Gal 5:22
The fruit of God's spirit is vengeance and fury
Judg 15:14/ 1 Sam 18:10,11

129. Longevity enjoyed by the wicked
Job 21:7,8/ Ps 17:14/ Eccl 8:12/ Is 65:20
Longevity denied to the wicked
Eccl 8:13/ Ps 55:23/ Prov 10:27/ Job 36:14/ Eccl 7:17

130. Poverty a blessing
Luke 6:20,24/ Jams 2:5
Riches a blessing
Prov 10:15/ Job 22:23,24/ Job 42:12
Neither poverty nor riches a blessing
Prov 30:8,9

131. Wisdom a source of enjoyment
Prov 3:13,17
Wisdom a source of vexation, grief and sorrow
Eccl 1:17,18

132. A good name is a blessing
Eccl 7:1/ Prov 22:1
A good name is a curse
Luke 6:26

133. Laughter commended
Eccl 3:1,4/ Eccl 8:15
Laughter condemned
Luke 6:25/ Eccl 7:3,4

134. The rod of correction a remedy for foolishness
Prov 22:15
There is no remedy for foolishness
Prov 27:22

135. A fool should be answered according to his folly
Prov 26:5
A fool should not be answered according to his folly
Prov 26:4

136. Temptation to be desired
James 1:2
Temptation not to be desired
Matt 6:13

137. Prophecy is sure
2 Pet 1:19
Prophecy is not sure
Jer 18:7-10

138. Man's life was to be one hundred and twenty years
Gen 6:3/ Ps 90:10
Man's life is but seventy years
Ps 90:10

139. The fear of man was to be upon every beast
Gen 9:2
The fear of man is not upon the lion
Prov 30:30

140. Miracles a proof of divine mission
Matt 11:2-5/ John 3:2/ Ex 14:31
Miracles not a proof of divine mission
Ex 7:10-12/ Deut 13:1-3/ Luke 11:19

141. Moses was a very meek man
Num 12:3
Moses was a very cruel man
Num 31:15,17

142. Elijah went up to heaven
2 Kings 2:11
None but Christ ever ascended into heaven
John 3:13

143. All scripture is inspired
2 Tim 3:16
Some scripture is not inspired
1 Cor 7:6/ 1 Cor 7:12/ 2 Cor 11:17

Think not that I come to send peace on earth: I came not to send
peace, but a sword.
- Matthew 10:34

... all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.
- Matthew 26:52

========

For wrath killeth the foolish man...
- Job 5:2

... let not the sun go down on your wrath.
- Ephesians 4:26

========

And no man hath ascended up to heaven, even the Son of man which
is in heaven.
- John 3:13

... and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
- 2 Kings 2:11

========

If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
- John 5:31

I am one that bear witness of myself...
- John 8:18
[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]

========

A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children's children...
- Proverbs 13:22

Sell that ye have and give alms...
- Luke 12:33

========

Blessed is the man that feareth the Lord... Wealth and riches
shall be in his house...
- Psalms 112:1-3

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than
for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.
- Matthew 19:24

========

I and my father are one.
- John 10:30

... I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
- John 14:28
[Jesus was the speaker in both of these quotes]

========

Thou shalt not kill
- Exodus 20:13

Thus saith the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his
side... and slay every man his brother...
- Exodus 32:27

========

Remember the sabbath day to keep it holy.
- Exodus 20:8

The new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot
away with: it is iniquity.
- Isaiah 3:22

========

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness
of anything that is in heaven... earth... [or] water.
- Leviticus 26:11

And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt
thou make them.
- Exodus 25:18

========

For by grace are ye saved through faith... not of works.
- Ephesians 2:8-9

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by
faith only.
- James 2:24

========

God is not a man, that he should lie: neither the son of man,
that he should repent.
- Numbers 23:19

And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his
people.
- Exodus 32:14

========

... the hour is coming, in which all that are in the graves shall
hear his voice, and come forth...
- John 5:28-29

As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth
down to the grave shall come up no more.
- Job 7:9

========

... thou shalt give life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth,
hand for hand, foot for foot, burning for burning, wound for
wound, stripe for stripe.
- Exodus 21:23-25

... resist not evil; but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right
cheek, turn to him the other also.
- Matthew 5:39

========

Honor thy father and mother.
- Exodus 20:12

If any man come to me, and hate not his father and mother, and
wife, and children, and brethren, and sisters, yea, and his own
life also, he cannot be my disciple.
- Luke 14:26

========

Lay not up for yourself treasures upon the earth...
- Matthew 6:19

In the house of the righteous is much treasure...
- Proverbs 15:6

========

I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
- Genesis 32:30

No man hath seen God at any time.
- John 1:18

========

The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father.
- Ezekiel 18:20

... I the lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of
the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth
generation.
- Exodus 20:5

========

Happy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth
understanding.
- Proverbs 3:13

For in much wisdom is much grief; and he that increaseth
knowledge increaseth sorrow.
- Ecclesiastes 1:18

========

The Lord is good to all.
- Psalm 145:6

I make peace and create evil. I the Lord do all these things.
- Isaiah 45:7

========

Whosoever shall say Thou fool, shall be in danger of hellfire.
- Matthew 5:22

[Jesus said] Ye fools and blind.
- Matthew 23:17

========

For all have sinned.
- Romans 3:23

There was a man... whose name was Job; and that man was perfect
and upright.
- Job 1:1

========

Two and twenty years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign.
- 2 Kings 8:26

Forty and two years old was Ahaziah when he began to reign.
- 2 Chronicles 22:2

========

If a man vow a vow unto the Lord or swear an oath... he shall do
according to all that proceedeth out of his mouth.
- Numbers 30:2

But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven... nor by
earth.
- Matthew 5:34-35

========

... the earth abideth forever.
- Ecclesiastes 1:4

... the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and
the works that are therein shall be burned up.
- 2 Peter 3:10

========

... for I am merciful, saith the Lord, and I will not keep anger
forever.
- Jeremiah 3:12

Ye have kindled a fire in mine anger, which shall burn forever.
- Jeremiah 17:4

========

... God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.
- James 1:13

And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt
Abraham.
- Genesis 22:1

========

And God saw everything that he made, and behold it was very good.
- Genesis 1:31

And it repented the Lord that he had made man on earth, and it
grieved him at his heart
- Genesis 6:6

========

For now have I chosen and sanctified this house that my name be
there forever; and mine eyes and my heart shall be there
perpetually.
- II Corinthians 7:16

Howbeit the most high dwelleth not in temples made with hands.
- Acts 7:48

========

[God dwells] in the light which no man can approach unto.
- I Timothy 6:16

The Lord said that he would dwell in the thick darkness.

- I Kings 8:12

========

And the Lord called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?
And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid.
- Genesis 3:9,10

Ye hath neither heard his voice, at any time, nor seen his shape.
- John 5:37

========

Then went up Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and seventy of the
elders of Israel. And they saw the God of Israel... They saw
God, and did eat and drink.
- Exodus 24: 9-11

Whom no man hath seen nor can see.
- I Timothy 6:16

========

With God all things are possible.
- Matthew 29:26

And the Lord was with Judah, and he drove out the inhabitants of
the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the
valley, because they had chariots of iron.
- Judges 1:19

========

God is not the author of confusion.
- I Corinthians 24:33

Out of the mouth of the most high proceedeth not evil and good?
- Lamentations 3:38

========

Those that seek me early shall find me.
- Proverbs 8:17

Then shall they call upon me but I will not answer; they shall
seek me early, but shall not find me.
- Proverbs 1:28

========

On the tenth day of this seventh month there shall be a day of
atonement; it shall be a holy convocation unto you; and ye shall
afflict your souls and offer an offering made by fire unto the
Lord.
- Leviticus 23:27

For I spake not unto your fathers, nor commanded them in the day
that I brought them out of the land of Egypt, concerning burnt
offering or sacrifices.
- Jeremiah 7:22

========

And the priest shall burn all on the altar to be a burnt
sacrifice, an offering made by fire, of a sweet savor unto the
Lord.
- Leviticus 1:9

Your burnt offering are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet
unto me.
- Jeremiah 7:20

========

God is not a man, that he should lie
- Numbers 23:19

And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the
Lord have deceived that prophet.
- Ezekiel 24:9

========

There is none other God but one.
- I Corinthians 8:4

And God said, Let us make man in our image.
- Genesis 1:26

========

When ye go, ye shall not go empty; but every woman shall borrow
of her neighbor, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels
of silver and jewels of gold, and raiment; and ye shall put them
on your sons and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the
Egyptians.
- Exodus 3:21,22

Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbor, nether rob him.
- Leviticus 19:13

========

At the hand of every man's brother will I require the life of
man. Whoso sheddeth man's blood, by man shall his blood be shed.
- Genesis 4:5,6

And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should
kill him.
- Genesis 4:15

========

Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow; they toil not,
neither do they spin... if God so clothe the grass of the
field... shall he not much more clothe you? Therefore, take no
thought, saying what shall we eat? or what shall we drink? or
wherewithal shall we be clothed?... Take, therefore, no thought
for the morrow.
- Matthew 6:28, 30-34

But if any provideth not for his own, especially for those of his
own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an
infidel.
- I Timothy 5:8

========

Be ye angry and sin not.
- Ephesians 4:26

Be not hasty in they spirit to be angry; for anger resideth in
the bosom of fools.
- Ecclesiastes 7:9

========

Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good
works.
- Matthew 5:16

Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of
them.
- Matthew 6:1

========

And Solomon stood before the alter of the Lord, in the presence
of all the congregation of Israel, and spread forth his hands
toward heaven...
- I Kings 7:22

When thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are; for
they love to pray standing in the synagogues, and in the corners
of the streets, that they may be seen of men...
- Matthew 6:5

========

And no razor shall come on his head; for the child shall be a
Nazarite unto God from the womb.
- Judges 8:5

Doth not even nature itself teach you, that if a man hath long
hair, it is a shame unto him?
- I Corinthians 6:14

========

Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy.
- Exodus 20:8

One man esteemeth one day above another; another esteemeth every
day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
- Romans 14:5

========

For in the six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and
all that in them is, and rested the seventh day; wherefore the
Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
- Exodus 20:11

And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and
that the Lord thy God brought the out thence through a mighty
hand and by a stretched-out arm; therefore the Lord thy God
commanded the to keep the Sabbath day.
- Deuteronomy 5:15

========

There is nothing unclean of itself.
- Romans 14:14

Nevertheless, these shall ye not eat, of them that chew the cud
or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel and the
hare, and the coney; for they chew the cud, but divide not the
hoof, therefore they are unclean unto you. And the swine,
because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is
unclean unto you; ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch
their dead carcass.
- Deuteronomy 14:7,8

========

Cursed is he that lieth with his sister, the daughter of his
father, or the daughter of his mother.
- Deuteronomy 27:22

And Abraham said... She is my sister; she is the daughter of my
father, but not the daughter of my mother; and she became my
wife.
- Genesis 20:11,12

========

If brethren dwell together, and one of them die and have no
child, the wife of the dead shall not marry without unto a
stranger; her husband's brother shall go in unto her, and take
her to him to wife.
- Deuteronomy 25:5

If a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing...
they shall be childless.
- Leviticus 20:21

========

He that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never
forgiveness.
- Mark 3:29

And by him that believe are justified from all things.
- Acts 13:39

========

[John the Baptist] is Elias which was for to come.
- Matthew 11:14

And they asked him, what then? Art thou [John the Baptist] Elias?
And he saith, I am not.
- John 1:21

========

Now, after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee,
preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God.
- Mark 1:14

After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of
Judea... and John was also baptizing Enon... for John was not yet
cast into prison.
- John 3:22-24

========

And it was in the third hour, and they crucified him.
- Mark 25:3-4

And it was the preparation of the passover, and about the sixth
hour; and he saith unto the Jews, behold your king... Shall I
crucify your king?
- John 19:14-15

========

They gave him vinegar to drink, mingled with gall.
- Matthew 27:34

And they gave him to drink, wine mingled with myrrh.
- Mark 15:23
[Jesus was the thirsty chap in both verses.]

========

And the men which journeyed with [Paul] stood speechless, hearing
a voice, but seeing no man.
- Acts 9:7

And they that were with me [Paul] saw indeed the light and were
afraid; but they heard not the voice of him that spake to me.
- Acts 22:9

========

Abraham had two sons; one by a bonds-maid, the other by a free
woman.
- Galatians 4:22

By faith, Abraham when he was tried offered up Isaac... his only
begotten son.
- Hebrews 11:17

========

Therefore Michal, the daughter of Saul, had no child unto the day
of her death.
- II Samuel 6:23

The five sons of Michal, the daughter of Saul.
- II Samuel 21:8

========

And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Israel, and he
moved David against them to say, Go, number Israel.
- II Samuel 24:1

And Satan stood up against Israel, and provoked David to number
Israel.
- I Chronicles 21:1

========

All power is given unto [Jesus] in heaven and in earth.
- Matthew 28:18

And [Jesus] could there do no mighty work, save that he laid his
hands on a few sick folk and healed them.
- Mark 6:5

========

There shall no evil happen to the just.
- Proverbs 12:21

Whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom
he receiveth.
- Hebrews 12:6

========

[jochhejaam]

Texasballa, have you researched all (or any) of those alleged contradictions or did you just google and paste?

[jochhejaam]

Hit and Run by TexasBalla? :lol

List a couple of the alleged contradictions that really bother you Balla and we'll discuss whether they truly are contradictions.

[NASpurs]

Texasballa, have you researched all (or any) of those alleged contradictions or did you just google and paste?Google and paste I bet. You just type in "Bible contradictions" and you'll get those. He probably passes them off like he researched all of this.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=scott]How many women do you know named scott?
I think the bravatar you had may have thrown him off.



scott, was the impetus for the study?

[scott]

scott, was the impetus for the study?

The study actually wasn't specifically about religion (or atheism) but actually about why some demographic groups are over(under)represented in prison relative to the general US population (for instance, African Americans are highly overrepresented in prisons). In fact, the title of my paper was "Why Don't Prison Populations Reflect General United States Demographics?" I did a small (but significant to me) amount of research in the Economics of Prisons during my studies.

Christians as a group are actually rather fairly represented in prisons (depending on which study you are looking at, Christians make up 75-85% of the US population - again, based on self-identification - and they make up approx. 83% of the US prison population). One of the many findings was that atheists are highly underrepresented in prisons (they make up approx. 8-14% of the US population, but only 0.2% of the prison population). Muslims are a religious group that is highly overrepresented in prisons (only ~0.5% of US population, but 7.5% of prison population).

The study's main conclusion was that education and income levels are the best predictor of "criminality" (for lack of a better word) and that religious identification has a limited causal relationship inprisonment. The section that dealt with the difference between Atheists and Christians points out that the fact the inmates are Christian is not to imply causality (they aren't criminals because they are Christians). But I will say that I conclude that Atheism isn't a cause of crime (which is an accusation occassionally tossed around, included by a former poster in this forum).

[NASpurs]

I wonder how many of these inmates were Christians before going to jail. I've heard many convert while in prision because of obvious reasons.