The NBA doesn't have a referee problem...

[Darrin]

The WWE has a referee problem. The NBA has a catasrophe.

Just for the record, the Pistons have lost 74 games since they traded for Rasheed Wallace in February, 2004. This includes the postseason. Last night's officials were Dan Crawford, Mark Wunderlich, and Tom Washington. When I saw who the officials were, I turned off the TV. I knew the Pistons were going to lose and badly. I'm not blaming it all on the referees, but when the Pistons have Dan Crawford on the court, Rasheed Wallace and Ben Wallace get little love. They get in early foul trouble, it takes away their agressiveness defensively, and it leads to double-digit Piston losses. Crawford has been the referee in 9 of the Pistons losses since that time (about 14% overall). Washington has been the referee in 6 Pistons losses (8%), and Mark Wunderlich in 5 (7%).

http://www.hockeyrefs.com/graphics/newsgraphics/09282004_nba.jpg

The Pistons take a lot of blame in this, but the Pistons' starting center's worst game of his postseason career came with Danny Crawford as the referee, and the Pistons cut it to one yesterday with Antonio McDyess on the floor. Wallace was substituted for McDyess, and suddenly the Pistons are back down by 13.

There are a lot of contributing factors, but I'd rather have Earl Hindman as the ref at the next Pistons game than this guy (stay away from Ron Garrettson and Ken Mauer, too).

http://images.usatoday.com/sports/basketba/00play/06allen.jpg


By the way, the guy on the court for the most Piston losses (10 account for 14%) was the referee who gave Rasheed a technical foul for staring at him. He was on the floor as the Pistons took on the Spurs in last year's deciding game of the NBA Finals (Rasheed in serious foul trouble).
http://start.officiating.com/images/photos/garretson.jpg

Ron Garrettson: key losses.
- 5/9/04 at New Jersey - Pistons score 64 points in blowout loss to Nets.
- 11/19/04 vs Indiana - He was there for the Brawl.
- 6/2/05 vs Miami - Pistons fall down 3-2 to Heat.
- 6/9/05 at San Antonio - Pistons lose big in game 2.

The NBA has a huge problem on their hands.

[Brutalis]

Vent thread. We all have our moments. But we already know refs suck.

[Darrin]

Vent thread. We all have our moments. But we already know refs suck.

I wish that's all it was. I'm not kidding - I had to watch the highlights of the game to know what happened. I shut off the game when they announced the referees.

[JamStone]

The Pistons sucked last night.

Danny Crawford actually didn't hurt the Pistons yesterday.

[Darrin]

The Pistons sucked last night.

Danny Crawford actually didn't hurt the Pistons yesterday.

That's bullshit. Check the play-by-play - Ben and Rasheed had one personal within the first 4 minutes of that game.

R. Wallace Foul: Offensive (1 PF) 9:22 left in 1st.
B. Wallace Foul: Shooting (1 PF) 8:11 left in 1st.

8 minutes into the game, Rasheed Wallace had his second:

R. Wallace Foul: Personal (2 PF) 4:00 left in 1st.


That from two of the best post defenders (and league leaders in least personal fouls).

This consistently happens; it's not a one-time deal.

[JamStone]

Ummmm, you just admitted you didn't watch the game.

Rasheed HOOKED Haslem on his offensive foul. Good call.

And, there were no quesitons about the Rasheed's second foul or Ben's first foul.

How can you say it's bullshit when you didn't even watch the game?

[Winnipeg_Spur]

No offence, but I've always considered Danny Crawford the best ref in the league, so perhaps it goes the other way too, that those two get away with a lot of uncalled fouls when there's a lesser ref calling the game...

The problem isn't neccessarily that certain refs have it out for certain teams or players, it's more certain refs call the games differently, and different teams benefit from different kinds of reffing.

[Darrin]

Ummmm, you just admitted you didn't watch the game.

Rasheed HOOKED Haslem on his offensive foul. Good call.

And, there were no quesitons about the Rasheed's second foul or Ben's first foul.

How can you say it's bullshit when you didn't even watch the game?

Because I have watched the other 8 losses, and it follows a trend. The 124-104 spackling by the Bucks - when Ben Wallace played 29 minutes and Rasheed had 4 fouls. Rip Hamilton gets 5 fouls.

The game 5 loss that dropped the Pistons into a 3-2 series hole to the Cleveland Cavaliers. Rasheed Wallace had 5 fouls and played 22 minutes. Chauncey Billups fouled out.

Game 5 versus the Spurs, 96-95 on Robert Horry's 3-pointer...the loss that dropped the Pistons into a 2-1 series hole to the Heat last season...the blowout loss to the Atlanta Hawks on the Pistons homecourt last season...

I didn't just decide to wake up and blame Dan Crawford for a loss.

[Darrin]

No offence, but I've always considered Danny Crawford the best ref in the league, so perhaps it goes the other way too, that those two get away with a lot of uncalled fouls when there's a lesser ref calling the game...

The problem isn't neccessarily that certain refs have it out for certain teams or players, it's more certain refs call the games differently, and different teams benefit from different kinds of reffing.

The Pistons went from winning in games called by Danny Crawford to losing them. The turning point? When Rasheed Wallace joined the team.

You're right; certain teams benefit and it goes the other way on other refs. But who's assigning the referees to these games? The NBA office.

[JamStone]

I didn't say Danny Crawford doesn't not like Rasheed. I didn't say he hasn't hurt the Pistons in the past.

I said last night, Danny Crawford did not hurt the Pistons. And, you not watching the game proves nothing with respect to last night's game.

[Darrin]

I didn't say Danny Crawford doesn't not like Rasheed. I didn't say he hasn't hurt the Pistons in the past.

I said last night, Danny Crawford did not hurt the Pistons. And, you not watching the game proves nothing with respect to last night's game.


Except that I have so little respect for him that I turned off a pivotal Eastern Conference Finals game. I have never, ever, ever, turned off a game because of a referee before. The post wasn't about Crawford as much as the state of refereeing in the NBA.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

But who's assigning the referees to these games? The NBA office.
So what, the NBA shouldn't assign Crawford to Piston games cause they've lost some games with him reffing?

[jochhejaam]

Darrin you're an excellent poster here and Danny Crawford sucks and absolutely has cost the Pistons to lose some games but I didn't feel he played a part in last nights game. IMO
I did quit watching in the 4th quarter after the Heat went back up by 8 so I'm not sure how the officiating went during the last 5 minutes.

[FromWayDowntown]

I'm honestly stunned to read this from Darrin.

I could see the point if there were obviously horrendous calls that went against the Pistons and Crawford had something to do with them. I could see the point if there was a situation where things were called inconsistently and badly against the Pistons bigs. I could see the point of this thread with the way things were called (or not called) at the end of Game 2 of the ECF.

I didn't see any of that last night, though.

[Darrin]

So what, the NBA shouldn't assign Crawford to Piston games cause they've lost some games with him reffing?

'Some games!?!'

Perhaps I didn't paint a bleak enough picture for you. The Pistons "improved" to 0-6 in the playoffs the last two seasons with Dan Crawford a referee.

2005: Game 3 ECSF - Pistons fall into 2-1 series hole to the lower-seeded Indiana Pacers.
2005: Game 3 ECF - Pistons fall into 2-1 series hole to the Miami Heat, undoing their work to gain homecourt advantage from Miami.
2005: Game 2 NBA Finals - Pistons fall into 2-0 series hole without homecourt advantage.
2006: Game 3 ECQF - Pistons lose by a 20-point margin, give up 124 points, the most since 1991 in the playoffs, and allow their opponent to shoot 60%.
2006: Game 5 ECSF - Pistons fall into 3-2 series hole giving Lebron James and the Cavs a chance to win a series on their home floor.
2006: Game 3 ECF - Pistons fall into another 2-1 series hole.

[Darrin]

I'm honestly stunned to read this from Darrin.

I could see the point if there were obviously horrendous calls that went against the Pistons and Crawford had something to do with them. I could see the point if there was a situation where things were called inconsistently and badly against the Pistons bigs. I could see the point of this thread with the way things were called (or not called) at the end of Game 2 of the ECF.

I didn't see any of that last night, though.

It's about no-calls. Calls that are made or are not that take away the Pistons agressive play on the interior, making it harder for Shaq, making it harder for lane pentration. It's the clutching and grabbing allowed on Tayshaun Prince, but not on Antoine Walker that allows him to get into the lane and throw lob passes to Shaquille O'Neal. It's our interior players afraid to go for blocked shots for fear it will send them to the bench. Did those things happen last night?

A referee can make just as much impact by swallowing his whistle as not using it. And the inconsistency from one side of the court to the other is pathetic.

I'm not letting the Pistons off the hook. All I know is that each time Crawford has been inserted into a potential series lead for the Pistons, they don't get it.

As far as being stunned, I try not to push the "excuse" button too often so that when I do, it makes an impact. I want to have my facts straight first.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

'Some games!?!'

Perhaps I didn't paint a bleak enough picture for you. The Pistons "improved" to 0-6 in the playoffs the last two seasons with Dan Crawford a referee.

2005: Game 3 ECSF - Pistons fall into 2-1 series hole to the lower-seeded Indiana Pacers.
2005: Game 3 ECF - Pistons fall into 2-1 series hole to the Miami Heat, undoing their work to gain homecourt advantage from Miami.
2005: Game 2 NBA Finals - Pistons fall into 2-0 series hole without homecourt advantage.
2006: Game 3 ECQF - Pistons lose by a 20-point margin, give up 124 points, the most since 1991 in the playoffs, and allow their opponent to shoot 60%.
2006: Game 5 ECSF - Pistons fall into 3-2 series hole giving Lebron James and the Cavs a chance to win a series on their home floor.
2006: Game 3 ECF - Pistons fall into another 2-1 series hole.
Again, so what? The NBA has to stop letting Crawford ref Pistons games because the Pistons haven't gotten it done with him reffing? If he actually has the audacity to call fouls on Ben or Sheed then that's something they have to adjust to. If the Pistons have a 0-6 record in games officiated by Danny Crawford, that's on the Pistons and no one else. Not on the NBA, not on Danny Crawford, not on David Stern.

BTW, I assume you have the same opinion about refs who the Pistons have done well with, they clearly shouldn't be officiating Piston games either.

[Darrin]

BTW, I assume you have the same opinion about refs who the Pistons have done well with, they clearly shouldn't be officiating Piston games either.

I do. Give me someone who has given both teams a fair shake. I don't want a referee that's 0-7 calling Heat games and 8-0 calling the Pistons. Give me someone who's fairer than that; someone who serves the rules, not the teams.

All in all, it doesn't come down to their records, it comes down to their officiating game situations. And if a trend like sending the Pistons starting line to the bench emerges, then don't send him to officiate an important game. Give both teams a fair shake.

Explain to me why it's on the Pistons to adjust to bad officiating?

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Explain to me why it's on the Pistons to adjust to bad officiating?
Cause that's all you can do and that's what every team in the league has to do. I'm not going to argue that the officiating in the league is great or even consistent but it is what it is, and I don't think stopping good refs from officiating games of a certain team just because they've lost too many games with them officiating (or won too many games) is a particularly good solution.


All in all, it doesn't come down to their records, it comes down to their officiating game situations. And if a trend like sending the Pistons starting line to the bench emerges, then don't send him to officiate an important game. Give both teams a fair shake.
I agree with that for the most part, but even if such a trend exists it doesn't mean that they're biased against Detroit or anything like that. The Pistons play a pretty physical brand of defense (not unlike the Spurs, when they're so inclined) so if you get an official who tends to call the game tighter (which is not neccessarily "wrong," just a different way to call it) then the Pistons' physical defenders can get in early foul trouble.

[jochhejaam]

...if you get an official who tends to call the game tighter (which is not neccessarily "wrong," just a different way to call it) then the Pistons' physical defenders can get in early foul trouble.
I understand Darrins feelings about Crawford, in the past he has blatantly missed calls right in front of him on a consistent basis against the Pistons which have cost him games. There's no adjusting to that Winnipeg.

Dumars filed several complaints with the NBA in the past regarding Crawfords officiating. I don't feel Crawford played a part in the Game 3 loss so maybe Crawford has made an effort to be more fair.

[Trainwreck2100]

Anytime a fan is more afraid of the man in the refs shirt more than the one in the opposing jersey, there is a problem.

[jochhejaam]

Anytime a fan is more afraid of the man in the refs shirt more than the one in the opposing jersey, there is a problem.
With the fan or the ref? :lol

[Trainwreck2100]

With the fan or the ref? :lol


I meant, you're not afraid of how the opponents going to play, but how the game will be called.

[Darrin]

the biggest compliment to a referee is that the fan doesn't realize they are out there. How many times have we heard that?

[TheSanityAnnex]

What a pointless thread.


Complaining about the calls when you didn't even watch the game? :lmao

[Darrin]

What a pointless thread.


Complaining about the calls when you didn't even watch the game? :lmao

I wasn't complaining about this game, just the state of officiating in today's NBA. Have you ever turned off a Conference Finals game when the officials were announced?

[Burn531]

This guy has always been good to me: http://img342.imageshack.us/img342/2267/conf32ref1gq.jpg :lol

[DirkAB]

I wasn't complaining about this game, just the state of officiating in today's NBA. Have you ever turned off a Conference Finals game when the officials were announced?

You weren't complaining about this game? That was the whole premise of this thread. You were referencing the play by play, because you didn't even watch the game (pathetic), to back up your arguement. This is the most ridiculous thread I've ever seen in my life. How about you just watch the game next time, and then STFU about the officiating. Pathetic.

[Marklar MM]

The Pistons are playing like shit, there is no doubt about it. But damn. Some of these no calls really get under your skin.

[conneaut615]

Are we seeing an NBA that is changing back to the Jordan-like era? Less emphasis on defense and the first team to 100 wins? That if you start your drive 12 feet out and your progress is in any way deterred, there's going to be a whistle? I'm just asking for opinions here. . .

[Spurologist]

When I saw who the officials were, I turned off the TV. I knew the Pistons were going to lose and badly.

To me, that is pathetic.

[mabber]

I shut off the game when they announced the referees.

This is not only pathetic, but ridiculous!!!

[bdubya]

I wasn't complaining about this game, just the state of officiating in today's NBA. Have you ever turned off a Conference Finals game when the officials were announced?

No, and I've seen a lot of games that were called worse (I moved to Chicago in '91 and was here for all six Jordan titles, so I've seen officiating at its absolute most biased). I agree the officiating is bad, absolutely. But I have zero suggestions on how to make it better; how 'bout you? Remember last Finals? If you read Spurstalk then, you would have known that Bennett Salvatore was biased against BOTH teams. Watching the games, I only notice the f'ups that go against the Pistons; watching a replay, I see lots of stuff they get away with and calls that go their way (one reason I love Bill Laimbeer courtside - he's sharp and he's honest). The refs ain't perfect, and any team that actually takes a title has had to overcome many games where the calls went against them. The Pistons got out-worked and out-smarted tonight; I'm seriously bugged about it, but that's what happened; refs are a sidebar.

[FreshPrince22]

No offence, but I've always considered Danny Crawford the best ref in the league, so perhaps it goes the other way too, that those two get away with a lot of uncalled fouls when there's a lesser ref calling the game...


Well that's just because of the fact that he calls the game in favor of the Spurs, and calls it against the Pistons. There isn't much debate. I have a hard time believing that the Pistons just have poor luck against him game after game. Last year, at one point in the playoffs, the Pistons were 1-7 when Dan Crawford or Ron Garretson officiated a game. This year they're 0-3 with Dan Crawford including the lone loss to the Bucks (foul trouble for both Wallaces early), the Home-loss to the Cavs (Billups, Sheed foul out), and Game 3 loss against the Heat (Rip fouls out, Sheed in foul trouble AGAIN). Notice a pattern?

[Slinkyman]

Are we seeing an NBA that is changing back to the Jordan-like era? Less emphasis on defense and the first team to 100 wins? That if you start your drive 12 feet out and your progress is in any way deterred, there's going to be a whistle? I'm just asking for opinions here. . .


what are you talking about? You must have not watched the NBA while MJ played, Jordan's bulls never averaged more then 100 points a game and played tough D. That era was far superior in D then now, 'no blood no foul' was the rule when the knicks played for example.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Well that's just because of the fact that he calls the game in favor of the Spurs, and calls it against the Pistons. There isn't much debate. I have a hard time believing that the Pistons just have poor luck against him game after game. Last year, at one point in the playoffs, the Pistons were 1-7 when Dan Crawford or Ron Garretson officiated a game. This year they're 0-3 with Dan Crawford including the lone loss to the Bucks (foul trouble for both Wallaces early), the Home-loss to the Cavs (Billups, Sheed foul out), and Game 3 loss against the Heat (Rip fouls out, Sheed in foul trouble AGAIN). Notice a pattern?
The results don't matter. The fact that someone fouled out doesn't matter. The only thing that matters when we're talking about a ref is the specific calls themselves. If the whole team fouled out in a game refed by Danny Crawford that doesn't automatically make him in the wrong if the fouls called were legit. I don't have any memory of those games to argue point for point, but I do remember in the home loss to the Cavs, Billups fouled out when he just grabbed a Cav player (LeBron I think) for his 6th foul. That's not Crawford's fault, that's on Chauncey Buh-Buh-Buh-Billups.

Also, I would point out that if this perception exists throughout the Pistons organization then it may be in the players' heads and it may affect the way they play when they see a certain official on the court. A good example of this from the Spurs side is with Jack Nies who TD (unfairly or fairly) believes has it out for him. The result of this is that when Nies makes a call against him Duncan tends to react much worse than normal, and it really affects his game. Nies CAN change the game with his call and non-calls, but what really changes the game is the way Duncan reacts to this, these reactions often have a much bigger impact than the calls themselves...

[FreshPrince22]

The results don't matter. The fact that someone fouled out doesn't matter. The only thing that matters when we're talking about a ref is the specific calls themselves. If the whole team fouled out in a game refed by Danny Crawford that doesn't automatically make him in the wrong if the fouls called were legit. I don't have any memory of those games to argue point for point, but I do remember in the home loss to the Cavs, Billups fouled out when he just grabbed a Cav player (LeBron I think) for his 6th foul. That's not Crawford's fault, that's on Chauncey Buh-Buh-Buh-Billups.


That's where people go wrong. You can't just look at the last foul and judge on that. Chauncey had 2 fouls to start the 4th quarter, and kept getting ticky-tack shit called on him untill he got frustrated (and also got thrown to the ground by Lebron while going after a loose ball... no call of course because it's you know who). The 1st foul counts for just as much as the 6th.

And I don't see how you can say that results don't matter. It shouldn't be nearly impossible for a 64-win team to get a win with a particular official calling the game. How is a team so incredibly tough to beat when the games are called by anyone but Dan Crawford, and so easily beaten when he is? It doesn't add up. Year after year it's not just luck. He goes by a different set of rules than everyone else. It's like he's looking for fouls that aren't there just because he hates Rasheed.

[Slomo]

The NBA doesn't have a referee problem...

... because they're doing exactly what the NBA wants them to do.

[Mavs<Spurs]

I have to agree with the premise of this thread, that the officiating is bad too often.

The Pistons and the Spurs are normally 2 of the best defensive teams in the league. They won 3 of the last 3 championships, all because of defense.

However, the Cavs were up 3-2 against Detroit, the Heat are up 3-1 against the Pistons and the Mavs beat the Spurs in 7, having been crushed more by the officiating than by the Mavericks.

I don't think that it is a coincidence that the Spurs are already eliminated from the playoffs and the Pistons are on the verge of elimination with a much more active group of officials.

I understand some of the frustration from no calls. However, imo the bigger problem (the more consistent problem) is the constant blowing of the whistle on the defensive team.

Perhaps defense is not an attractive quality for a marketer to sell. However, they are fundamentally changing the way the game is played and I am beginning to think of it as a different game, one I don't like nearly as much.

I am not big on conspiracy theories. However, a conspiracy theory is not needed to accept the hypothesis put forth here. The NBA is a business. They think that they will gain a larger market share (and greater revenue) if less physical defense is allowed. This occurred when the handcheck was disallowed to allow the goat to continue to astound us with his athleticism and get to the rim at will. However, now it is reaching an alltime low.

I also must say that I absolutely hate the offensive foul calls on Shaq. This is not his first year in the league. You can't officiate him one way for his entire career until two weeks ago and suddenly change the way the rules are interpreted and applied. At least you can't do that and be fair.

(1) Go Spurs (next year)!!!
(2) Go Pistons (this year)!!!
(3) Go Heat (if Pistons don't make it)!!!
(4) Go everybody playing the Mavs (even the lowly Suns)!!!

BTW, it ain't over. 2 of 3 next games for the Pistons are at home. The Fat Lady has stepped up to the podium, she is humming a few bars (hopefully not the Swan Song!!!) but she hasn't belted out anything yet.