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ducks
05-29-2006, 01:32 PM
Brown Delivered. Can Saunders?

By Michael Wilbon
Monday, May 29, 2006; Page E01

MIAMI- The guy on the very hot seat down here is named Flip. The upside when you take over a team as talented and accomplished as the Detroit Pistons, a finalist last year and a champion the year before, is that another title is probably within reach. Even if you didn't build it, you maintained it.

But the downside, if you lose before the finals, has real unpleasantness to it. You blew it. You messed it up. The guy before you simply did a better job.

The Detroit Pistons haven't lost anything yet, but Coach Flip Saunders is hearing the latter. What if Larry Brown were still here? Would the Pistons, a defensive marvel in the past, have allowed Miami to shoot nearly 60 percent in a Game 3 loss? Would the Pistons have lost five of their last eight playoff games if the coach were better at making adjustments?

The days off in an NBA playoff series carry sometimes brutal examination, even from within.

Asked the difference between today's Pistons and the Pistons of 2004 and 2005, especially on defense, Detroit's Ben Wallace said, "Night and day . . . night and day." He pointed out that his team has dropped defensively from No. 1 to "the middle of the pack." And several players indicated here before practice Sunday that Saunders, who was rightfully praised during the regular season for improving the team's defense, hasn't worked the team much at all on defense, that he barely has talked about it in recent days.

It's difficult to know whether the Pistons, down 2-1 in the Eastern Conference finals, are just unhappy with their predicament with Game 4 here on Monday, or whether there might be some actual unhappiness with the coach.

You don't want to read too much into the comments of the usually measured Tayshaun Prince, especially the morning after a completely frustrating 1-for-7 shooting performance. But Prince did say: "I was pretty disappointed we didn't give Lindsey Hunter any action in the second half. Obviously, he's our best suit for Dwyane , as far as putting pressure on him. I know Dwyane can shoot over him, but at least he has the quickness to be where he's at all the time. We didn't give him the opportunity the second half."

Hmmm. Last I checked, only one person makes the call on whom to play: the head coach. Flip.

Prince wasn't done, either. "We went to our counter options" too early, he said.

Wallace said of the team defense, "There are breakdowns all over the place."

Rasheed Wallace said of not having his number called a lot early: "I don't know. That's a question I think y'all should ask Flip more than me because I guess it's more a coaching call."

To be fair, it was later in the same session with reporters that Wallace came back and said, "It ain't like he can come out there, throw some shorts on, lace some sneaks up and come out there with us."


And Saunders himself dismissed the notion that he's essentially on trial the rest of the playoffs, calling it, "no more pressure than ever before."

It's to Saunders's credit that he simply will not make the playoffs a referendum on his style and temperament vs. Larry Brown's.

Still, it was Chauncey Billups, the Pistons' point man and one of the most astute players in the league, who said: "Flip knew when he took this job it was going to be a lot of pressure. It was pretty much, 'Win or failure.' We got two minutes away from winning it all again last year. He knew it would be a tough job . . . but at the same time, when you look at all we had, it's a dream job, I thought. I'm sure there's a little pressure on Flip. But we don't look at it like that, and I don't think he's worrying about it."

It's ironic that Brown is being looked at as the guy who had all the answers when last year, some felt that players were starting to tune out the Hall of Fame coach. This time last year Brown had been in contact with the Cavaliers about going to Cleveland. As much as Billups appreciates Brown, he said of Saunders, "He's not harping on anything as much as our previous coach."

But there is the reality of the situation. Brown took the Pacers, 76ers and Pistons to the conference finals. He went to the NBA Finals with the 76ers and won with the Pistons. Brown, putting his personal dramas aside, is one of the great coaches.

Saunders, a very good coach, is still a work in progress.

As Billups said: "Of course, Larry had been there a lot more times than Flip has; had a lot more experience in these situations. Larry was just relentless, no matter what. We could be up 3-1, down 3-1. Larry was really not going to change. He's going to be the same, which is what you love and respect him so much for. I think that Flip, right now, is trying to figure it out. He's looking at as much tape as he can to see what it is and make those small adjustments. He's only been to the finals one time before, in Minnesota. So this is somewhat new to him as well."

Saunders and his assistants might very well find, in all that video review, a way to spring free the offense, which has gone from averaging 106.6 points the first seven games of the playoffs to 82 points the last eight games. But the Pistons, by league design, might never get back to the defensive level of last year and the year before. The playoffs are being officiated differently this season, and it isn't only the Pistons who've had to adjust. Shaquille O'Neal found the moves he made for 13 years being judged to be offensive fouls in these playoffs.

Asked if the Pistons will be allowed to play the same kind of physical defense, Billups said: "No way. They put in all those rules, like the hand check, after we won the championship two years ago playing defense. Nobody wanted to see a defensive team in the Finals and winning. It's not as explosive. It's not as fun to watch. I don't like watching it either. I'm not mad at 'em. But you look at us against San Antonio last year. Two really good defensive teams in the Finals played seven games and got the worst ratings in history almost. Seven games. There hadn't been a seventh game in the NBA Finals in a lot of years, man. But look at the first-round series this year. Lakers-Phoenix and Washington-Cleveland had ratings out of the roof. They're running up and down the floor, no defense being played, shooting and running and gunning. That's fun to watch. So they put in those rules to keep it from being 89-85."

Brown didn't have to contend with a league that doesn't find what the championship Pistons did to be aesthetically pleasing. Saunders does. But Brown's Pistons, in every round of the playoffs, found ways to fight back when they were behind. Saunders, shortsighted as it is, will be judged over the next few games on whether his team can do at

Bob Lanier
05-29-2006, 02:02 PM
Chauncey Billups needs to go. Especially if Flop isn't fired.

Spurologist
05-29-2006, 02:06 PM
Chauncey Billups needs to go. Especially if Flop isn't fired.

and there goes the franchise

leemajors
05-29-2006, 02:09 PM
why would you want to get rid of billups?

Bob Lanier
05-29-2006, 02:18 PM
His game and his ego are completely out of control. He's directly responsible for most of the problems with the team that don't go on Flip. His floor-generalship is disgustingly bad, and his defense is, if anything, even worse.

I've been saying all along that that jackass isn't an MVP candidate - and that was in the regular season, when he was just balling and stroking himself to the media. Now that the pressure's on him and he doesn't have a good coach to tell him what to do, he's a liability on both ends of the floor. He's a poor man's Baron Davis.

If I were Flip Saunders, I would think long and hard about starting Lindsey Hunter at point guard tonight.

Phil Hellmuth
05-29-2006, 02:20 PM
If I were Flip Saunders, I would think long and hard about starting Lindsey Hunter at point guard tonight.


There goes 8 assists and like 20 pts out of the door.

Bob Lanier
05-29-2006, 02:23 PM
Fine. The Pistons have other players who can score - particularly if they touch the ball, which isn't happening with Chauncey the Chucker dribbling out the clock.

Stephon Marbury is a career 20&8 player.

But this isn't really on topic. The answer to Mr. Wilbon's question is "no".

E20
05-29-2006, 02:28 PM
If the players can't get it done on the floor, I don't see how you can blame the Coach for that.

leemajors
05-29-2006, 02:30 PM
If the players can't get it done on the floor, I don't see how you can blame the Coach for that.

therein lies the problem - there is no question the players are more than capable of getting it done.

gus
05-29-2006, 02:37 PM
My issue with Flip is that is he is not using my man Delfino to stop Wade.
He could do a good job. He insisted all year with HIS LOVER Mo' Evans. When Delfino had time he produced and he is a heck of defender.

Gus.

RON ARTEST
05-29-2006, 03:06 PM
what do pistons fans think of mo evans? i thought he would be good but he hasnt done much in detroit. when we let him go i was pissed but now that kevin martin and fransisco garcia developed im happy.

Bob Lanier
05-29-2006, 03:41 PM
Extremely limited offense and virtually no defense. Good offensive rebounder for his size; is sent to the offensive glass whenever he's in the game. Mediocre finisher unless there's an uncontested dunk. Bad shooter except from the corner 3 (prefers left). Good free throw shooter. Can't dribble, can't pass especially well. Defensively - he's too slow (and frequently too short) to guard 2s, too short (and frequently too weak) to guard 3s, and way too short and weak to guard 4s, and has bad instincts and not much lateral quickness. Not a very smart player.

Plays "hard" most of the time, though - throws himself to the floor when he thinks there's a chance for a tieup and the like - but results are inconsistent. His activity leads some people to conclude that he's actually doing something, which is not always the case.

With that said, he couldn't be any worse than Delfino has been in this series. I don't know why Flip has mostly used Delfino to guard James Posey rather than Dwyane Wade, but whatever the case, Carlos isn't doing shit.

mike detroit
05-29-2006, 04:25 PM
Fine. The Pistons have other players who can score - particularly if they touch the ball, which isn't happening with Chauncey the Chucker dribbling out the clock.



if that's what you're basing this arguement on, I have to think that you haven't actually even been watching the games. Chauncey's big problem right now is that he seems like he DOESN'T want the ball. he keeps looking to Tay to run the offence, and driving the lane and dishing when he could have had an open shot.

JamStone
05-29-2006, 04:40 PM
First two games of this series and for much of the Cleveland series, most people agreed that Chauncey wasn't aggressive enough and not looking to score, and that was the reason the Pistons were struggling on offense.

He finally becomes aggressive at the offensive end in game 3, and a jackass like Bob Lanier says he's a chucker.

Billups has not been good this post-season so far. But, it's not because he's chucking the ball or not trying to get his teammates involved. His problem is that he isn't being consistently aggressive enough in attacking the defense. And, that doesn't just mean shooting. He has to put pressure on the defense by also going to the basket and creating kickout opportunities. He has to get the ball to his wing players earlier in the shot clock so there are other options when the defense stop the first option.

Chauncey may have been overrated for much of the season. And, maybe he really wasn't an MVP candidate. But, he still was the best player on the Pistons team this year. And, when he plays the way he is capable of, he is a difference maker and an edge for the Pistons in winning a game.

Bob Lanier
05-29-2006, 04:43 PM
Did you watch Game 3? Chauncey did nothing but run high screen-rolls (badly) and chuck up shots.

His overdribbling has always been a major issue, and if anything he seems to be even slower bringing the ball up court than he's ever been. I don't particularly care for a point guard who takes 10-12 seconds to shuffle the ball upcourt before he even thinks about initiating the offense, giving even the worst halfcourt defense all the time they need to set up. I'm not asking him to make plays in transition, because that's something he's not capable of doing - but please, at least jog.

His aimless direction of the offense is a new factor in the playoffs, though, and I agree that before he encountered Jason Williams he's looked scared to shoot. He was having problems overcoming the different looks Cleveland and Miami have been presenting him with (and was basically shut down by Payton's more physical pressure on Saturday). Still, he's not calling high-percentage plays, and he's not reading the mismatches and openings for easy opportunities - and he frequently completely ignores Sheed on the block. He looks confused, and he's far too passive in attacking the defense. Flop's offense relies way too much on Billups making decisions with the ball, and when he's not making the right decisions the offense shuts down.

But his arrogance is the main problem to me. Even Shaq usually is more grounded than Chauncey's been this season - and our brilliant head coach does nothing but stroke his ego and kiss his ass.

Edit: JamStone, I've called Chauncey a chucker his entire career in Detroit. Now I have cause to criticize him beyond just my dislike of undersized 2s trying to play point guard, and I'm not going to waste it. :spin I didn't think his problem in the Cleveland series was his inability/lack of aggressiveness looking to score, but his lack of aggressiveness in general. But misapplied activity is usually worse than no activity at all.

A team whose best player is Chauncey Billups is not a championship-caliber team. Take that to mean what you will about Chauncey, the coach who's made Chauncey the centerpiece of the offense, or me and my crazy jackass opinions, but I firmly believe that to be true.

gus
05-30-2006, 09:20 AM
.

With that said, he couldn't be any worse than Delfino has been in this series. I don't know why Flip has mostly used Delfino to guard James Posey rather than Dwyane Wade, but whatever the case, Carlos isn't doing shit.

He didn't play at all. Except for a few minutes in game 2.- He also didn't played vs. Cleveland

DarkReign
05-30-2006, 10:17 AM
Brown Delivered. Can Saunders?

No.

1Parker1
05-30-2006, 10:52 AM
Dayummm, Pistons fans wanting to trade away Billups? Last time I checked, there were 4 other players on that team? What about Rasheed...talking smack and not backing it up? What about Prince playing soft? What about Hamilton's one trick pony which led to a 4-13 shooting night? What about Ben Wallace and his non-existent (more so than usual) offense?

Billups is not the reason the Pistons are in a 3-1 hole. Yes, it's partly the players faults, but its also a large part of the coach. I haven't been impressed with Flip's coaching adjustments, in game play calling coming out of time-outs, or anything else in the first two rounds. I haven't really seen the conference finals, but by the sound of it, it seems like this bad trend is continuing.

Still, please GO PISTONS!!! We can't have the Heat/Mavs win a trophy! :(

tlongII
05-30-2006, 11:20 AM
The Pistons problem is Sheed. He has a ring and a new contract so he doesn't give a fuck any more. He is one of the most perplexing players in the league. So much talent, so little self-discipline.

Darrin
05-30-2006, 11:22 AM
First, Billups is not the problem. He's had the coach's ear this season, and the GM sees a lot of game in his (rightfully). He's proven he will listen to coach.

The Pistons do need to get new blood in the top 5. I think they've become too complacent, way too comfortable with each other, and yes, they have a lot of miles together. The top five, as a unit, have more power within that locker room than the coach, and that's never happened before.

Who I think needs to go is Rasheed Wallace. There are a lot of candidates out there to replace him right now (Jermaine O'Neal, Kevin Garnett, etc). His attitude has seemed to rub off a little too much on the rest of this group. A big that can stroke the ball from anywhere on the court is great. But our bigs have to be able to rebound. KG has shown the ability to do that - take the outside shot and still pursue the basketball.

The fat belly of arrogance (essentially a capable person with confidence, but no hunger) has crawled into this team's mentality. The Pistons need some hunger and fresh legs in that locker room. That's why some of the personnel has to change, and I think their leadership has to change because of that.

The Pistons need a defensive leader, and until they get one (it used to be their coach) they will continue to play like crap on that end of the ball.

A deal I would like to see is Rasheed Wallace and Carlos Delfino for Jamaal Tinsley and Jermaine O'Neal. Tinsley would be a great backup point guard, and O'Neal is essentially the 29-year-old version of Rasheed Wallace when he came to the Pistons in 2004.

Why would the Pacers do this deal? The experience of winning an NBA Championship, the ability to get huge contracts off their roster.

Mavs<Spurs
05-30-2006, 11:57 AM
I like the Pistons, but I don't think that Flip is the right coach for a team that wins championships by playing defense. I also still believe that great defense is more essential to winning a championship than great offense.

The Bulls teams of the 90's were great defensive teams. Michael Jordan was one of the greatest defensive players of all time. Scottie Pippen is right there with him.


Let's review:

Pistons
Bulls
Rockets (Hakeem!!!)
Bulls
Spurs (the Admiral and the Big Fundamental)
Lakers (but Shaq )
Spurs
Pistons
Spurs


Notice that the Phoenix Suns and the Mavericks nowhere appear on this list despite having the "best offense" (I actually like inside out offense much better).

1Parker1
05-30-2006, 12:44 PM
Let's review:

Pistons
Bulls
Rockets (Hakeem!!!)
Bulls
Spurs (the Admiral and the Big Fundamental)
Lakers (but Shaq )
Spurs
Pistons
Spurs


Notice that the Phoenix Suns and the Mavericks nowhere appear on this list despite having the "best offense" (I actually like inside out offense much better).


Unfortunately, that will change after this season. Neither the Mavs nor the Heat are no where near the TOP defensive teams in the league.

Mavs<Spurs
05-30-2006, 01:14 PM
Unfortunately, that will change after this season. Neither the Mavs nor the Heat are no where near the TOP defensive teams in the league.


I love your title below your name !!! :lol

Mavs suck, Go Pistons!!! This is my theme!!! :elephant :elephant :elephant


I agree with you, but we must admit that the Heat are playing much better defense in this series against the Pistons than previously. Some might attribute this to Pat Riley. Do you?

1Parker1
05-30-2006, 01:35 PM
^I'm not saying the Heat or the Mavs don't play any defense. They do. However, it's nowhere near the same class of defense that many of the other teams on that list play.

:lol BTW, thanks for appreciating my new title. Unfortunately, it looks like I may have to change it again soon...

Extra Stout
05-30-2006, 01:56 PM
It seems as though the previous coach in Detroit, for all his foibles, was able to keep all those strong personalities in Detroit pointed towards one goal.

The current coach cannot do that. The team kept that up on its own for a while, but in the crucible of the playoffs, there has to be one voice, one leader.

When the chips have gone down, Flip Saunders has stood by as the Pistons have come unglued. Yes, the players have responsibility for their loss of poise and discipline. But there are at least a dozen coaches in this league who could have managed to keep this team together. A year ago, even in defeat, even with a coach who had one foot out the door, they appeared to be the most cohesive unit in the league. Now look at them.

I hope what they've lost can be recovered under new leadership.

2centsworth
05-30-2006, 01:59 PM
difference between Brown and Saunders is that Shaq is healthy. Last year Shaq was on one leg and they still almost won.

MadDog73
05-30-2006, 02:01 PM
I hope what they've lost can be recovered under new leadership.


Am I a bad fan? I could care less what happens to the Pistons. I mean, it's sad for Detroit, but really, why should San Antonio fans care?

I'd love to see the Spurs vs Heat next year.

Extra Stout
05-30-2006, 02:24 PM
Am I a bad fan? I could care less what happens to the Pistons. I mean, it's sad for Detroit, but really, why should San Antonio fans care?

I'd love to see the Spurs vs Heat next year.
I liked and respected the way Detroit played at their best.

1Parker1
05-30-2006, 02:38 PM
difference between Brown and Saunders is that Shaq is healthy. Last year Shaq was on one leg and they still almost won.


It's not just Shaq, last year Pistons completely owned the Sixers in the first round (:(), this year, they got blown out by the sub .500 Bucks by 20 points in a game. Second round, they took 7 games to get past an inexperienced Cavs team. Last year, they took out the Pacers in 6 games while winning the last game on the Pacers HC. Shaq is obviously healthier this season than last. However, this season Pistons are letting the Heat shoot 60% while they themselves are barely shooting 40%. Under Brown, their defense would have kept them closer in the game.

sickdsm
05-31-2006, 03:20 PM
My issue with Flip is that is he is not using my man Delfino to stop Wade.
He could do a good job. He insisted all year with HIS LOVER Mo' Evans. When Delfino had time he produced and he is a heck of defender.

Gus.


Said it preseason, Flip sticks to "his rotation" He's like Dusty baker and his crib notes. Doesn't like to shake it up.