Free Will and Christianity

[turambar85]

I realize that there is another Bible thread below, but I wanted to go a little off topic and get some questions answered. How does free will relate to christianity. I know some people who credit God with everything that happens in their lives, but we make all of our decisions. As I said in the other post, "when something good happens to a Christian, it was God doing them a favor, when something bad happens to a Christian, it was God teaching them a lesson. When something good happens to a non-believer, it was free will and luck working, when something bad happens, Gods giving them what they deserve. So we only have free will if we are a bad person getting good things. Any other scenario we are the great puppets."

Another question was brought up by clambake when he said "Pray for little johnny's recovery! Opps, little johnny didn't make it. God decided it was johnny's time to die. So whats with all the praying if it's out of your hands?"

Any response would be appreciated.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

I predict this thread reaching about 1000 posts in record time :D

[turambar85]

I hope so, I sincerely would like to hear a swaying argument on this.

[2centsworth]

"when something good happens to a Christian, it was God doing them a favor, when something bad happens to a Christian, it was God teaching them a lesson. When something good happens to a non-believer, it was free will and luck working, when something bad happens, Gods giving them what they deserve. So we only have free will if we are a bad person getting good things. Any other scenario we are the great puppets."

those are good questions. My understanding of what I've read is that we pray for the strength to accept God's will whether we consider it a bad outcome or good outcome. For example, if little Johnny dies we must draw strength in our grief and to understand what God wants from us. It all requires a lot of prayer and understanding.
Hope that helps.

[turambar85]

But we pray for him to heal Johnny, and then if he doesnt we say it was his will for him to die. If Gods will is independent of our prayers, then our prayers can't influence Gods actions.

[2centsworth]

But we pray for him to heal Johnny, and then if he doesnt we say it was his will for him to die. If Gods will is independent of our prayers, then our prayers can't influence Gods actions.A prayer for healing is praying for God to do what our will desires. We need to pray for God to strengthen us and for his will to be done. Praying and telling God to do things for you is not a prayer that I believe is biblical.

[turambar85]

Yes, we pray for him to do what our will desires, but if he does not do what our will desires then we say that his will was for the boy to die all along. This implies that Gods will exists before our prayers, and therefore his decision is made. The boy will live or die regardless of our prayers. If God "answers our prayers" and the boy lives, should we then not say that God did not answer our prayers, but that it was all along Gods will that he should live.

[2centsworth]

Yes, we pray for him to do what our will desires, but if he does not do what our will desires then we say that his will was for the boy to die all along. This implies that Gods will exists before our prayers, and therefore his decision is made. The boy will live or die regardless of our prayers. If God "answers our prayers" and the boy lives, should we then not say that God did not answer our prayers, but that it was all along Gods will that he should live.
You're not reading or understanding my responses. The bible doesn't teach us to pray for what our will desires. If you do so then I think you're wasting your time.

[turambar85]

But your responses fail to answer my question. Why does a great majority make prayers such as that, and then have that outlook afterwards. And if we shouldnt pray for our will to be done then why should we ever pray for anything to happen? Gods will will happen regardless of our prayer, for us to pray for his will to be done is a touch egotistical, is it not? He doesnt need us to pray for his help.

[Extra Stout]

The Bible says that we should pray to ask God for things.

The Bible says that our prayers have influence on God.

The Bible says that the prayer of a righteous man is potent and effective.

There are accounts in the Bible of God relenting due to the prayers of righteous men.

Studies have shown that sick people who are prayed for do better than those who are not.

But the Bible does not say that God will always do what we ask him to do in prayer.

This is like a father who eagerly desires to do for his children whatever they desire unless and until it is no longer in their best interest. Here, "best interest" is defined in the kingdom sense rather than the earthly sense.

[2centsworth]

But your responses fail to answer my question. Why does a great majority make prayers such as that, and then have that outlook afterwards.

the great majority don't read the bible to understand how to pray and what prayer accomplishes. Read the bible for answers and start with the Lord's prayer as a guideline of what your prayers should sound like. You should praise God, ask for his will to be done, ask for his direction, and ask for his forgiveness.

At least that's my understanding of what I've read.

[boutons_]

"Studies have shown that sick people who are prayed for do better than those who are not."

A big study, or two, of just a couple months ago showed that prayer vs no prayer had no effect on heart paitients.

Prayer for other people probably has more effect on the person praying than the person prayed for. I have nothing against prayer or people who pray, I have nothing against people believing whatever the fuck they want to believe, eg, dubya is competent to be president.



Found it in my archives:

======================

March 31, 2006


Long-Awaited Medical Study Questions the Power of Prayer

By BENEDICT CAREY

Prayers offered by strangers had no effect on the recovery of people who were undergoing heart surgery, a large and long-awaited study has found.

And patients who knew they were being prayed for had a higher rate of post-operative complications like abnormal heart rhythms, perhaps because of the expectations the prayers created, the researchers suggested.

Because it is the most scientifically rigorous investigation of whether prayer can heal illness, the study, begun almost a decade ago and involving more than 1,800 patients, has for years been the subject of speculation.

The question has been a contentious one among researchers. Proponents have argued that prayer is perhaps the most deeply human response to disease, and that it may relieve suffering by some mechanism that is not yet understood. Skeptics have contended that studying prayer is a waste of money and that it presupposes supernatural intervention, putting it by definition beyond the reach of science.

At least 10 studies of the effects of prayer have been carried out in the last six years, with mixed results. The new study was intended to overcome flaws in the earlier investigations. The report was scheduled to appear in The American Heart Journal next week, but the journal's publisher released it online yesterday.

In a hurriedly convened news conference, the study's authors, led by Dr. Herbert Benson, a cardiologist and director of the Mind/Body Medical Institute near Boston, said that the findings were not the last word on the effects of so-called intercessory prayer. But the results, they said, raised questions about how and whether patients should be told that prayers were being offered for them.

"One conclusion from this is that the role of awareness of prayer should be studied further," said Dr. Charles Bethea, a cardiologist at Integris Baptist Medical Center in Oklahoma City and a co-author of the study.

Other experts said the study underscored the question of whether prayer was an appropriate subject for scientific study.

"The problem with studying religion scientifically is that you do violence to the phenomenon by reducing it to basic elements that can be quantified, and that makes for bad science and bad religion," said Dr. Richard Sloan, a professor of behavioral medicine at Columbia and author of a forthcoming book, "Blind Faith: The Unholy Alliance of Religion and Medicine."

The study cost $2.4 million, and most of the money came from the John Templeton Foundation, which supports research into spirituality. The government has spent more than $2.3 million on prayer research since 2000.

Dean Marek, a chaplain at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minn., and a co-author of the report, said the study said nothing about the power of personal prayer or about prayers for family members and friends.

Working in a large medical center like Mayo, Mr. Marek said, "You hear tons of stories about the power of prayer, and I don't doubt them."

In the study, the researchers monitored 1,802 patients at six hospitals who received coronary bypass surgery, in which doctors reroute circulation around a clogged vein or artery.

The patients were broken into three groups. Two were prayed for; the third was not. Half the patients who received the prayers were told that they were being prayed for; half were told that they might or might not receive prayers.

The researchers asked the members of three congregations * St. Paul's Monastery in St. Paul; the Community of Teresian Carmelites in Worcester, Mass.; and Silent Unity, a Missouri prayer ministry near Kansas City * to deliver the prayers, using the patients' first names and the first initials of their last names.

The congregations were told that they could pray in their own ways, but they were instructed to include the phrase, "for a successful surgery with a quick, healthy recovery and no complications."

Analyzing complications in the 30 days after the operations, the researchers found no differences between those patients who were prayed for and those who were not.

In another of the study's findings, a significantly higher number of the patients who knew that they were being prayed for * 59 percent * suffered complications, compared with 51 percent of those who were uncertain. The authors left open the possibility that this was a chance finding. But they said that being aware of the strangers' prayers also may have caused some of the patients a kind of performance anxiety.

"It may have made them uncertain, wondering am I so sick they had to call in their prayer team?" Dr. Bethea said.

The study also found that more patients in the uninformed prayer group * 18 percent * suffered major complications, like heart attack or stroke, compared with 13 percent in the group that did not receive prayers. In their report, the researchers suggested that this finding might also be a result of chance.

One reason the study was so widely anticipated was that it was led by Dr. Benson, who in his work has emphasized the soothing power of personal prayer and meditation.

At least one earlier study found lower complication rates in patients who received intercessory prayers; others found no difference. A 1997 study at the University of New Mexico, involving 40 alcoholics in rehabilitation, found that the men and women who knew they were being prayed for actually fared worse.

The new study was rigorously designed to avoid problems like the ones that came up in the earlier studies. But experts said the study could not overcome perhaps the largest obstacle to prayer study: the unknown amount of prayer each person received from friends, families, and congregations around the world who pray daily for the sick and dying.

Bob Barth, the spiritual director of Silent Unity, the Missouri prayer ministry, said the findings would not affect the ministry's mission.

"A person of faith would say that this study is interesting," Mr. Barth said, "but we've been praying a long time and we've seen prayer work, we know it works, and the research on prayer and spirituality is just getting started."

* Copyright 2006 The New York Times Company

[Spurminator]

Matthew 26:


39Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will."

...

42He went away a second time and prayed, "My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done."


Christ's prayer at Gethsemane encapsulates your questions. Prayer is a testament of faith... You may not always get what you ask but you may find yourself blessed in other areas because of your faith.

Unanswered prayers often help us see God's Will working in our lives. Skeptics would reduce this to Christian rationalization, and perhaps they are right in some ways. It's certainly theraputic to say "Thy Will be done" because it gives you hope that, down the road, your life or the lives of others will be better off.

[clambake]

I saw this study,too. You beat me to it.

So the only thing you say is worth praying for is "strength"? Strength for good outcome or strength for bad outcome. Sounds like nothing more than a distraction from ones grief.

[2centsworth]

I'm a christian and at this point I have to agree with you Buttons. Prayer will not change God's will. What would surprise me is if there was any consistency to those types of studies. I'm sure there are studies that show people who are prayed for who do much better, but it's because God's will can't be explained through statistics.

[clambake]

If prayer will not change Gods will, why bother. Isn't that the point?

[Spurminator]

Sounds like nothing more than a distraction from ones grief.

Perhaps. Is that a bad thing?

I believe that Christ's followers are blessed for their faith. A component of that faith is prayer. Others are worship, charity, deeds, etc. Those blessings may not make you wealthy or immune to deadly sicknesses, but they may give you peace of mind.

[clambake]

Of course it wouldn't protect me from a deadly sickness. That would be Gods will, right?

[2centsworth]

If prayer will not change Gods will, why bother. Isn't that the point?
Because God tells us to pray, and we need to pray to help us follow God. Also, worshipping him in prayer is a sign of our faith.

[2centsworth]

If prayer will not change Gods will, why bother. Isn't that the point?
sounds like if you don't get what you want from someone you want nothing to do with them.

[Spurminator]

Of course it wouldn't protect me from a deadly sickness. That would be Gods will, right?

Right.

[clambake]

God tells us to pray... to worship him. To worship him....Does God have an ego that needs to be stroked? I don't get it. Bosses demand worship, too.

[Spurminator]

Why don't you ask Him?

[2centsworth]

God tells us to pray... to worship him. To worship him....Does God have an ego that needs to be stroked? I don't get it. Bosses demand worship, too.
Worshipping God is a testament of faith. Also, worshipping your Boss would be a sin.

[clambake]

ok. "God, do you really need me to worship you?"

....waiting for response......

nope, the line is dead.

[Mr. Peabody]

God tells us to pray... to worship him. To worship him....Does God have an ego that needs to be stroked? I don't get it. Bosses demand worship, too.

Being well-liked is important to God. He has a little bit of an inferiority complex.

That's probably why he undertook these grand projects (e.g. creating the universe ex nihlo, flooding the world,...etc.) to prove his self-worth.

[Spurminator]

Tee hee

I'll await Turambar's input since he seemed genuinely interested.

[Mr. Peabody]

In the words of Homer Simpson -- "Don't you think the almighty has better things to worry about than where one little guy spends one measly hour of his week?" (talking about going to church)

[clambake]

How many gods are there? Which one is all powerful? Which god rules all gods?

Sounds like a horse race.....place your bets.

[Mr. Peabody]

How many gods are there? Which one is all powerful? Which god rules all gods?

Sounds like a horse race.....place your bets.

There are three distinct, separate entities that are all God (father, son and holy spirit), but there is only one God.

[turambar85]

Should have known not to bring this question into a spurstalk forum...now Im more confused than before... :depressed

[2centsworth]

Sounds like a horse race.....place your bets.
you're betting your soul. At least read the new testament before dismissing the bible.

[2centsworth]

Should have known not to bring this question into a spurstalk forum...now Im more confused than before... :depressed
You have received very clear answers to your original question.

[clambake]

Why should I read something that people of influence agreed to believe?

[Extra Stout]

God doesn't need anybody to worship him. Doing so is for man's benefit, not God's.

[turambar85]

I have recieved nothing which solidifies a viewpoint in either direction, in my opinion.

[2centsworth]

I have recieved nothing which solidifies a viewpoint in either direction, in my opinion.
you asked why pray if God's will won't be changed.

answer: you pray for your own strength and understanding. Prayer is not about what you want according to the bible.

you can disagree with the answer but you should state why you disagree.

[King]

Why should I read something that people of influence agreed to believe?

No, you're right. Keep discounting something that you have absolutely no idea about. That's the smart way to debate.

[turambar85]

I asked why we pray for things to happen, you tell me we pray for strength. I say in return that most church-people that I know pray for help and answers, not for strength and will-power.

[Mr. Peabody]

Why should I read something that people of influence agreed to believe?
You should read the Bible because there is much to learn from its stories, whether you choose to believe them or not.

[2centsworth]

Why should I read something that people of influence agreed to believe?
when did fishermen and tax collectors become people of influence?

[Extra Stout]

I asked why we pray for things to happen, you tell me we pray for strength. I say in return that most church-people that I know pray for help and answers, not for strength and will-power.
When you were a child, did you ever ask your father for anything?

[Extra Stout]

when did fishermen and tax collectors become people of influence?
He apparently believes in the inerrancy of The Da Vinci Code.

[2centsworth]

I asked why we pray for things to happen, you tell me we pray for strength. I say in return that most church-people that I know pray for help and answers, not for strength and will-power.
my response is that when you pray you should pray like jesus instructed in the Sermon on the Mount (Mathew 6). I don't see where he tells people to ask for anything more than the will of God.

your church-people have it wrong IMO.

[Phenomanul]

I asked why we pray for things to happen, you tell me we pray for strength. I say in return that most church-people that I know pray for help and answers, not for strength and will-power.


We also pray to understand GOD's will for our lives...
-for direction...
-for courage...
-for strength of resistance over temptation...
-for wisdom (not to be confused with intelligence)
-for the above for other people... as intermediation

[RobinsontoDuncan]

Even I will go on record on the many logical fallaces and pure conspiracy speculation inherent within the da vinci code (waste of my money). Im not a fundamentalist christian by any means either as i generally find organized religion a corruption of the original intent.

[clambake]

When I say "people of influence", some of you are bothered by that. Getting a publisher requires influence. The bible is some sweet deal!

If I am betting with my soul, wouldn't God recognize that I am nothing more than an ignorant twit, therefor not making me suffer his wrath? Should I be punished for this?

True, I have not read the entire new testament. Not a big fan of fiction.

[Mr. Peabody]

If I am betting with my soul, wouldn't God recognize that I am nothing more than an ignorant twit, therefor not making me suffer his wrath? Should I be punished for this?



There is a difference between true ignorance and wilful ignorance.

[Mr. Peabody]

Not a big fan of fiction.

Evidently, you are not a big fan of being a well-rounded individual if you have to be convinced to read one of the most influential works the world has ever known.

[Spurminator]

If I am betting with my soul, wouldn't God recognize that I am nothing more than an ignorant twit, therefor not making me suffer his wrath? Should I be punished for this?

Should you be rewarded?


True, I have not read the entire new testament. Not a big fan of fiction.

Hey-o! (Rim shot)

[clambake]

You said it. Influential. You are suggesting that my "ignorence" is wilful. For that to be true I would have to believe, only to pretend not to. Is it not Gods will for me not to believe. Didn't he give me the reasons and will not to believe? Will I burn in hell? Will he send me to hell for turning away from his teachings? Will satan punish me for turning away form Gods teachings?

[2centsworth]

If I am betting with my soul, wouldn't God recognize that I am nothing more than an ignorant twit, therefor not making me suffer his wrath?

No just God or judge would let iniquity go unpunished.

[xrayzebra]

I have recieved nothing which solidifies a viewpoint in either direction, in my opinion.

I would suggest you go back to church. And wasn't it you that said your
Grandfather was a minister. Why don't you have this conversation with
him. I am more than sure no one on this forum will change anyone's mind
on the subject. Religion is a personal thing. Like death. It is something
no one can do for you. It is something you must face alone and decide
alone. That is not saying you cant talk to a person about the subject, just
that it is a decision that must be made by yourself. And you will know
when you make that decision. There is no sin in questioning your faith.
God has said the only unforgivable sin is not in believing in him. Maybe
not much of an answer, but one I have found to be true over the years.
Faith sustains many over many hurdles and heartbreaks and yes, even
the the good things that will happen to you over your life. It is as much
fun to share your good times as it is to have someone share your heartbreak and sorrow.

[Mr. Peabody]

You are suggesting that my "ignorence" is wilful. For that to be true I would have to believe, only to pretend not to.

No, that would be "bad faith." Wilful ignorance is deliberately refraining from seeking out the truth, so that later you can claim you were unaware.

[Mr. Peabody]

Is it not Gods will for me not to believe. Didn't he give me the reasons and will not to believe? Will I burn in hell? Will he send me to hell for turning away from his teachings? Will satan punish me for turning away form Gods teachings?

I don't know. I am an agnostic.

[Mr. Peabody]

I would suggest you go back to church. And wasn't it you that said your
Grandfather was a minister. Why don't you have this conversation with
him. I am more than sure no one on this forum will change anyone's mind
on the subject. Religion is a personal thing. Like death. It is something
no one can do for you. It is something you must face alone and decide
alone. That is not saying you cant talk to a person about the subject, just
that it is a decision that must be made by yourself. And you will know
when you make that decision. There is no sin in questioning your faith.
God has said the only unforgivable sin is not in believing in him. Maybe
not much of an answer, but one I have found to be true over the years.
Faith sustains many over many hurdles and heartbreaks and yes, even
the the good things that will happen to you over your life. It is as much
fun to share your good times as it is to have someone share your heartbreak and sorrow.

Nice post, xray.

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I would suggest you go back to church. And wasn't it you that said your
Grandfather was a minister. Why don't you have this conversation with
him. I am more than sure no one on this forum will change anyone's mind
on the subject. Religion is a personal thing. Like death. It is something
no one can do for you. It is something you must face alone and decide
alone. That is not saying you cant talk to a person about the subject, just
that it is a decision that must be made by yourself. And you will know
when you make that decision. There is no sin in questioning your faith.
God has said the only unforgivable sin is not in believing in him. Maybe
not much of an answer, but one I have found to be true over the years.
Faith sustains many over many hurdles and heartbreaks and yes, even
the the good things that will happen to you over your life. It is as much
fun to share your good times as it is to have someone share your heartbreak and sorrow.


I like it when he tones down the rhetoric and writes civil stuff like this, nice post.

[Extra Stout]

I would suggest you go back to church. And wasn't it you that said your
Grandfather was a minister. Why don't you have this conversation with
him. I am more than sure no one on this forum will change anyone's mind
on the subject. Religion is a personal thing. Like death. It is something
no one can do for you. It is something you must face alone and decide
alone. That is not saying you cant talk to a person about the subject, just
that it is a decision that must be made by yourself. And you will know
when you make that decision. There is no sin in questioning your faith.
God has said the only unforgivable sin is not in believing in him. Maybe
not much of an answer, but one I have found to be true over the years.
Faith sustains many over many hurdles and heartbreaks and yes, even
the the good things that will happen to you over your life. It is as much
fun to share your good times as it is to have someone share your heartbreak and sorrow.
You probably "get it" better than most of the rest of us.

[jochhejaam]

If prayer will not change Gods will, why bother. Isn't that the point?
God's will is that none should perish without the eternal soul saving knowledge of the gift Jesus Christ gave man when he allowed himself to die on the cross thereby atoning for mans sins.

"God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

Yet we are told that far more of mankind will perish without having personally accepted this soul saving knowledge than those that accept this knowledge;

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leads unto life, and few are they that find it.

So Gods will is that none should perish (in hell) but reality is that many will.

Conclusion - Gods will is not fulfilled because he allows mankind the freedom to choose what road they take and many choose not to be partakers (of what I will take the liberty to label) "His perfect will".

As Stout previously stated "the fervent, effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much". If I didn't believe that (and I do) then I'm wasting my time.

[jochhejaam]

God tells us to pray... to worship him. To worship him....Does God have an ego that needs to be stroked? I don't get it. Bosses demand worship, too.


It sounds as if you have a limited idea of what worshipping God entails. What do you picture when you think of us worshipping Him?

Throughout scripture we are told that we are created by God for his pleasure, He doesn't need our worship, He covets our Worship.


The greatest form of worshipping Him IMO is by accepting the greatest given ever given to mankind and that is the emancipating decision to accept the life giving sacrifice of his Son Jesus Christ. Attempting to pass along this gift to others is a form of worship. Being obedient to him in the way he wants us to live is worship. Helping those in need is a form of worshipping him. It brings God pleasure to see those he has created helping each other out, etc.

[Phenomanul]

God's will is that none should perish without the eternal soul saving knowledge of the gift Jesus Christ gave man when he allowed himself to die on the cross thereby atoning for mans sins.

"God is not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance" (2 Peter 3:9).

Yet we are told that far more of mankind will perish without having personally accepted this soul saving knowledge than those that accept this knowledge;

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter ye in by the narrow gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leads to destruction, and many are they that enter in thereby. For narrow is the gate, and straitened the way, that leads unto life, and few are they that find it.

So Gods will is that none should perish (in hell) but reality is that many will.

Conclusion - Gods will is not fulfilled because he allows mankind the freedom to choose what road they take and many choose not to be partakers (of what I will take the liberty to label) "His perfect will".

As Stout previously stated "the fervent, effectual prayer of a righteous man availeth much". If I didn't believe that (and I do) then I'm wasting my time.

:tu

Couldn't have phrased it any better myself...

[SA210]

I would suggest you go back to church. And wasn't it you that said your
Grandfather was a minister. Why don't you have this conversation with
him. I am more than sure no one on this forum will change anyone's mind
on the subject. Religion is a personal thing. Like death. It is something
no one can do for you. It is something you must face alone and decide
alone. That is not saying you cant talk to a person about the subject, just
that it is a decision that must be made by yourself. And you will know
when you make that decision. There is no sin in questioning your faith.
God has said the only unforgivable sin is not in believing in him. Maybe
not much of an answer, but one I have found to be true over the years.
Faith sustains many over many hurdles and heartbreaks and yes, even
the the good things that will happen to you over your life. It is as much
fun to share your good times as it is to have someone share your heartbreak and sorrow.
Would you say having faith would also include supporting war?

[xrayzebra]

Would you say having faith would also include supporting war?

In one one word: YES!

Even God tells you that. But you would have a hard time
understanding that. You have too much hate in your heart.
You will never understand dissent from hate. Sorry, but
this the last thing I will have to say on this matter.
The young man was asking a question. I gave him an
opinion, mine. Right, wrong or indifferent. I take him at
his word. He was seeking an answer. The only thing I
would add to my original post was to use what he has.
His brain. Think, use common sense. Look at the country
around him. The beauty that it holds. Nature. People.
Yes people. By nature they are beautiful, in mind and
in their physical being. Look at the animals. One of my
favorite creatures is a Jersey cow. I know it sounds dumb.
But I have always, since a child, looked at those big
brown beautiful eyes they have and who couldn't love them.
When they were calves, they had as much energy as myself.
I know you wont understand. But there is much you don't.
But Yes, I do support war. It is ugly. People die. But
you are always talking about the bible. Remember the
cities God destroyed. They were evil. Evil still exist.

[SA210]

In one one word: YES!

Even God tells you that. But you would have a hard time
understanding that. You have too much hate in your heart.
You will never understand dissent from hate. Sorry, but
this the last thing I will have to say on this matter.
The young man was asking a question. I gave him an
opinion, mine. Right, wrong or indifferent. I take him at
his word. He was seeking an answer. The only thing I
would add to my original post was to use what he has.
His brain. Think, use common sense. Look at the country
around him. The beauty that it holds. Nature. People.
Yes people. By nature they are beautiful, in mind and
in their physical being. Look at the animals. One of my
favorite creatures is a Jersey cow. I know it sounds dumb.
But I have always, since a child, looked at those big
brown beautiful eyes they have and who couldn't love them.
When they were calves, they had as much energy as myself.
I know you wont understand. But there is much you don't.
But Yes, I do support war. It is ugly. People die. But
you are always talking about the bible. Remember the
cities God destroyed. They were evil. Evil still exist.

God made war with the nations.

This was war by command. Nations were executed in righteous war by God, using the Isrealites. And the Last War will be the same.

Wars of today are Not made by God. We are NOT to start wars, finish them or be associated with them in anyway.

Simple, "You must not kill" . No exceptions. You can read I and II Kings and I and II Samuel to see the difference.

[Spurminator]

Wars of today are Not made by God.

Scripture?

[spurster]

No doubt Spurstalk is the place to go to get correct theology. Now here goes:

Free will: We have enough free will to accept Jesus as our Savior. We don't have enough free will to lead a sinless life. We need God's will (the Holy Spirit) to lead a better, more Christian life.

Why bad things happen to good people and good things happen to bad people: God is not a micro-manager. Almost everything that happens is natural cause and effect. God gave us dominion over the earth, so it is up to us to manage it wisely or not. When God performs an overt miracle (e.g., healing a sick person), it is to demonstrate God's existence, power, love, mercy, etc., not to ensure that everybody gets everything they need or desire. It's our job to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, take care of the sick, visit those in prison. Of course, covert miracles happen all the time when God gives us the Holy Spirit.