Steve Nash is Not a Top 10 Player in this League

[pussyface]

I know a lot of you superstitious mavs fan types aren't going to want to hear this right before tipoff, but win or lose tonight (and I expect the Mavs to give fine account of themselves tonight) I am not at all convinced that Steve Nash is one of the very best players in the league.

I can easily think of 10 guys i'd rather have if I had 1 year to win an NBA title.

On the other hand, if I wanted to be a Western Conference Finalist, I'd think about making him a top 5 pick. He is the best guard in the league in terms of playing one way offensive run and gun basketball, but of course this is just one aspect of the game. Of course the Suns system is tailor made to his skills.

...but this guys no Lebron, no Dirk, no Tim Duncan, no Dwayne Wade...i'm not sure I wouldn't take Marion over him if I had my choice (much less Amare).

Steve Nash is an all-star pointgaurd but lets get serious... I don't recall John Stockton (not that Nash is the complete player Stockton was in terms of defense) collecting MVP hardware or even consideration.

Call me old fashioned, but I'd like to see my league MVP lead their team in things like scoring and rebounding (assists are nice though, I'll give him that).

[DirkAB]

Laughable.

[cherylsteele]

He has back-to-back MVP's and you say he is not a top 10 player....is this because he is no longer on the Mavs and now you are just ticked off? :rolleyes

[Holmes_Fans]

Any PG could get 10 assist a game in the suns offense, they take twice the possesions as any team in the league.

[JMarkJohns]

Any PG could get 10 assist a game in the suns offense, they take twice the possesions as any team in the league.

No they couldn't and no they don't.

[pussyface]

bakrid the kings fan is laughing off the idea that there are ten humans on the planet who ball harder than Nash.

...where were you when Mike Bibby was having his way with Stevie in those mavs/kings series? not to say Bibby is as good as Nash, but it goes to showing something.

[Texas_Ranger]

:lol :lol :lol

[TDMVPDPOY]

let me take a shit and come back to answer this, wait theres no need to, cose nash = shit = suns

[RON ARTEST]

bakrid the kings fan is laughing off the idea that there are ten humans on the planet who ball harder than Nash.

...where were you when Mike Bibby was having his way with Stevie in those mavs/kings series? not to say Bibby is as good as Nash, but it goes to showing something.
yeah bibby owns nash in the playoffs thats for sure.

[Burn531]

:spin

[JMarkJohns]

yeah bibby owns nash in the playoffs thats for sure.

Well, so far, Nash's teams have advanced to three Western Conference Finals while Bibby's teams have advanced to just one.

And please... Seriously, DO NOT throw out the injury card on those Kings teams.

If Nash can lead an Amare-less, Thomas-less Suns team to the Conference Finals, then Bibby could have done the same thing, considering the amount of talent on those Kings teams.

[RON ARTEST]

Well, so far, Nash's teams have advanced to three Western Conference Finals while Bibby's teams have advanced to just one.

And please... Seriously, DO NOT throw out the injury card on those Kings teams.

If Nash can lead an Amare-less, Thomas-less Suns team to the Conference Finals, then Bibby could have done the same thing, considering the amount of talent on those Kings teams.
im talking about head to head buddy. mavs versus kings. nash and bibby have zero rings so i dont really care.

[JMarkJohns]

im talking about head to head buddy. mavs versus kings. nash and bibby have zero rings so i dont really care.

Head to head? Whose teams won more series? I believe it's the Mavs.

Besides, like you said, neither have rings, so it really doesn't matter.

Great point.

I love Bibby, having met him a half-dozen times (my cousin played with him in high school). I'm a UA guy and I think Bibby is incredably underrated, but he's not Nash.

[mffl89]

Any PG could get 10 assist a game in the suns offense, they take twice the possesions as any team in the league.

not really...i guarantee u that if u put jason terry/chauncey billups/allen iverson/ anyone u want, they will not be able to get it

the reason, NASH is the sun's offense...without nash, the suns will have a totally different offense that wouldn't run as much

[Axl Van Dam]

I know a lot of you superstitious mavs fan types aren't going to want to hear this right before tipoff, but win or lose tonight (and I expect the Mavs to give fine account of themselves tonight) I am not at all convinced that Steve Nash is one of the very best players in the league.

I can easily think of 10 guys i'd rather have if I had 1 year to win an NBA title.

On the other hand, if I wanted to be a Western Conference Finalist, I'd think about making him a top 5 pick. He is the best guard in the league in terms of playing one way offensive run and gun basketball, but of course this is just one aspect of the game. Of course the Suns system is tailor made to his skills.

...but this guys no Lebron, no Dirk, no Tim Duncan, no Dwayne Wade...i'm not sure I wouldn't take Marion over him if I had my choice (much less Amare).

Steve Nash is an all-star pointgaurd but lets get serious... I don't recall John Stockton (not that Nash is the complete player Stockton was in terms of defense) collecting MVP hardware or even consideration.

Call me old fashioned, but I'd like to see my league MVP lead their team in things like scoring and rebounding (assists are nice though, I'll give him that).


:fro The mere fact that he was able to lead his team to the WCF without top dog Amare Stoudemire is proof enough that he is one of the top ten players in the league.

[pussyface]

The mere fact that he was able to lead his team to the WCF without top dog Amare Stoudemire is proof enough that he is one of the top ten players in the league."-axl van dam
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Am I the only one who is not all that impressed with beating Lakers/Clippers in hard fought wars?

Their path to this years WCF was not very impressive to me, and has been catagorized by up and down play by the "mvp."

How has his play compared with the likes of dirk/lbj/wade? ...hes an outstanding player but a notch below these guys.

...I can say from experience as a mavs fan that when we did beat the kings in the playoffs it was largely in spite of nash's play relative to bibby and not because of it.

I Also think it is HUGELY telling that you referred to "top dog Amare." This is my point exactly; if another "MVP" favorite, much less an MVP winner, had a teammate go down you would not refer to that guy as TOP DOG.

If your going to be league MVP, it should be laughable to call anyone else on the team "top dog."

For instance, "Dirk is worthy becuause he led the Mavs without top dog Josh Howard."

"Lebron is worthy because he led his guys without TOP DOG Anderson Verejeo."

[BillsCarnage]

Any PG could get 10 assist a game in the suns offense, they take twice the possesions as any team in the league.

:lmao This is one of the most ignoramus posts i've seen in a while. Oh wait, you're a Mav fan, sorry that explains a lot.

Nash is the conductor of this offense. the back-to-back MVP's might be debateable, but nash as not a top 10 isn't.

And hey, rather than listing his top 10 the the idiot who started this tread just tries to shoot from the hips. Motard.

[BillsCarnage]

yeah bibby owns nash in the playoffs thats for sure.

Dude, yer still dwelling on three or four years ago???

[BillsCarnage]

Well, so far, Nash's teams have advanced to three Western Conference Finals while Bibby's teams have advanced to just one.

And please... Seriously, DO NOT throw out the injury card on those Kings teams.

If Nash can lead an Amare-less, Thomas-less Suns team to the Conference Finals, then Bibby could have done the same thing, considering the amount of talent on those Kings teams.

He's right... JM with the hammer and Ron Artest is the nail.

[pussyface]

yo bills...please respond to this:
Am I the only one who is not all that impressed with beating Lakers/Clippers in hard fought wars?

Their path to this years WCF was not very impressive to me, and has been catagorized by up and down play by the "mvp."

How has his play compared with the likes of dirk/lbj/wade? ...hes an outstanding player but a notch below these guys.

...I can say from experience as a mavs fan that when we did beat the kings in the playoffs it was largely in spite of nash's play relative to bibby and not because of it.

I Also think it is HUGELY telling that you referred to "top dog Amare." This is my point exactly; if another "MVP" favorite, much less an MVP winner, had a teammate go down you would not refer to that guy as TOP DOG.

If your going to be league MVP, it should be laughable to call anyone else on the team "top dog."

For instance, "Dirk is worthy becuause he led the Mavs without top dog Josh Howard."

"Lebron is worthy because he led his guys without TOP DOG Anderson Verejeo."

[pussyface]

just saying that something is not debatable or that it is conventional wisdom doesnt make it so

[TheSanityAnnex]

Well, so far, Nash's teams have advanced to three Western Conference Finals while Bibby's teams have advanced to just one.

And please... Seriously, DO NOT throw out the injury card on those Kings teams.

If Nash can lead an Amare-less, Thomas-less Suns team to the Conference Finals, then Bibby could have done the same thing, considering the amount of talent on those Kings teams.
The injury card could still be used because it is the timing with which the injuries took place.

Nash had known he'd be Amare-less and was well prepared for it, as was the rest of the team.

When Webber went down, it was during the playoffs, that is hard to recover from. When he came back, he was thrown right back into the starting lineup, (if you remember, the Kings were playing fantasticly without him), and the team suffered trying to readjust to his presence.

Amare was smart to sit back down after trying to play this year, I have a feeling he would have had the same effect Webber had on the Kings.

[TheSanityAnnex]

bakrid the kings fan is laughing off the idea that there are ten humans on the planet who ball harder than Nash.
.There may be ten better players...............but not at his position.

[BillsCarnage]

yo bills...please respond to this:
Am I the only one who is not all that impressed with beating Lakers/Clippers in hard fought wars?
Quite possibly you are. The Playoffs are about matchups and both of those teams matched up very well against the Suns. In fact just about all the "experts" and Bball understanding fans expected the Suns to lose both of those series. Yet some how, some way the Suns managed to win including being down 3-1 to the Fakers.

The Suns have litterally ZERO inside game - offensive of defensive - yet here they are two wins from the Finals. You don't get that far on dum luck. And Nash is the one who has put this team on his back when Amare went down and has taken them this far. Not bad for a white dude who is 6'3" on a generous day.



Their path to this years WCF was not very impressive to me, and has been catagorized by up and down play by the "mvp."
see above... The Mavs beating the Grizz is 4 is impressive? The Grizz are perenial PO patsies having never won a single game. Adversity is something players face in the PO's which the Mavs have faced only ONCE. I've said this on other boards that the Mavs cannot let this series go 7, because the Suns have played four - soon to be five - "must win" games. If the pressure of gm 7 comes for a shot at the finals the Suns have a better shot, IMO. All Dallas has concerned themself with are the Spurs.


How has his play compared with the likes of dirk/lbj/wade? ...hes an outstanding player but a notch below these guys.
Different positions to compare 'cept Wade and he's close to a SG. Dirk and James are go to guys, much of the offense revolves around them.

Ask yourself this: Would it be easier to stand a wait for the ball to come to you and try to make something happend OR Be the one who has to break down the defense, find the open player or decide to take it all the way.

Very few PG's in NBA history have been really, really good and Nash is one of those now.


...I can say from experience as a mavs fan that when we did beat the kings in the playoffs it was largely in spite of nash's play relative to bibby and not because of it.

Hey, the system and coach have a lot to do with how a player is used. D'Ant is a better coach with this system then Nellie was. Nash has also turned up his game since coming back to Phx. Look how well Kidd is playing - why can't Nash do the same for the next 2-3yrs??



I Also think it is HUGELY telling that you referred to "top dog Amare." This is my point exactly; if another "MVP" favorite, much less an MVP winner, had a teammate go down you would not refer to that guy as TOP DOG.

Really, where did i post that?

But lets give it a go for shits n giggles, ok? If Dirk went down and Terry avg'd 20/10, helped seven other players to have career years and earned an MVP would Terry then be considered the top dog? Probably not, because "top dogs" are generally big men. Nash might be top dog for the Suns this year, but make now mistake, this is Amare's team.


If your going to be league MVP, it should be laughable to call anyone else on the team "top dog."


For instance, "Dirk is worthy becuause he led the Mavs without top dog Josh Howard."

"Lebron is worthy because he led his guys without TOP DOG Anderson Verejeo."
redundancy is your friend?

[JMarkJohns]

The injury card could still be used because it is the timing with which the injuries took place.

Nash had known he'd be Amare-less and was well prepared for it, as was the rest of the team.

When Webber went down, it was during the playoffs, that is hard to recover from. When he came back, he was thrown right back into the starting lineup, (if you remember, the Kings were playing fantasticly without him), and the team suffered trying to readjust to his presence.

Amare was smart to sit back down after trying to play this year, I have a feeling he would have had the same effect Webber had on the Kings.

If memory serve, your Kings were one win away from the Conference Finals when Webber went down. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it happened, in Dallas in game six.

That means you had a game seven at home, with Bibby, Divac, Peja, Terkoglu (sp?), Christie, Clark, Jackson, Gerald Wallace... come on. That's plenty of talent to win one game, at home.

One game? Are you telling me Bibby couldn't will his team to one win at home vs. a defenseless Dallas squad? But I thought he owned Nash?

[TheSanityAnnex]

If memory serve, your Kings were one win away from the Conference Finals when Webber went down. Maybe I'm wrong, but I thought it happened, in Dallas in game six.

That means you had a game seven at home, with Bibby, Divac, Peja, Terkoglu (sp?), Christie, Clark, Jackson, Gerald Wallace... come on. That's plenty of talent to win one game, at home.

One game? Are you telling me Bibby couldn't will his team to one win at home vs. a defenseless Dallas squad? But I thought he owned Nash?Webber was the heart and soul of that team. That is liking asking Dallas, at that time, to win without Dirk.

You said that both teams dealt with injuries, and my point was to show you that they were at different times of the year and therefore should not be compared. Amare was out for the whole year and the team knew it. Webber went down in game 6 and the next year came back and ruined the chemistry the Kings had worked on all year. Amare did a good thing by not forcing his comeback too soon.

[pussyface]

billscarnagie you have wasted my time with that response.
beating weak la teams in 7 is impressive but SWEEPING memphis isnt because the last two years a completely different group of young players (like jwill and posey) wearing Grizz jerseys got swept by ELITE teams in SA/last yrs Suns squad?

This years grizz were veteran led and won 49 games, more than either LA team. Beating any team in the NBA 4 times in a row in the playoffs is never short of impressive, much less a quality one. some even rated the grizz so highly as to predict they would win the series and it "wouldn't go 7," in the words of Scottie Pippen.


being a "really, really good point gaurd" does not make a league MVP.
if Dirk went down and Terry started averaging 20/10 I would not call him an MVP candidate. You are right, dirk would still be the "top dog"/best player on the team.

If it is redundant to provide real life examples of what you are talking about as I did in my previous post, than I guess you have me there.

[atxrocker]

off topic i hope amare comes back fully recooperated. i really dig his game. before the injury the guy was an absolute beast.

[pussyface]

last year's playoffs led me to believe that amare was nothing less than the best player in the NBA.

[JMarkJohns]

being a "really, really good point gaurd" does not make a league MVP.

if Dirk went down and Terry started averaging 20/10 I would not call him an MVP candidate. You are right, dirk would still be the "top dog"/best player on the team.

Here's the thing. Nash isn't just a really good PG. Anyone who think he's just really good is missing the facts. A Nash led team has led the League in offense for the past five seasons. That's not a coincidense, considering the amount of player turnover both Dallas and Phoenix has had.

If Dirk went down and Terry averaged 20-10, he wouldn't be enough to get them to the Conference Finals. I'm not sure Dallas would make the playoffs without Dirk, so your argument is very flawed.

Fact is, Last year many people questioned Nash by saying "but he has Amare". Well, this year he didn't and they have gone farther this year without him than they did last year with him. This is because of Nash.

He may not be a top-10 player in reguards to pure skill or potential, but on impact of a team, he's easily a top-3 player. He makes everyone better. Don't give me the "Phoenix" system either, but if you knew anything about the Suns, you'd know the system is Steve Nash. D'Antoni has said on many occasions he just lets Nash run the show. Everything you see is Nash. Is is the writer and director of the Suns offense. Everything is based on his play, which is why when Nash struggles, the Suns struggle and why when Nash plays good, the Suns play good. He's the end all, be all of this team. No one player in the League has more responsibility within an offense and no one player in the League can get so much out of so little.

And Yes, I do mean little.

Diaw... say what you want,, but he was a scrub throw in as part of the JJ trade. Phoenix ups have admitted to being surprised at his skills.
Jones... when he got consistant playing time (lost it around March due to injuries and Tim Thomas' acquisition) he was a 14-point, high percentage shooter in his first real year of playing time.
Barbosa... Look at last year's numbers (as a backup to Nash), then look at this year's numbers (as a SG next to Nash).
Tim Thomas... He was traded three times within the last three years and was eventually waived. He's been a career underacheiver and yet is now the best offensive frontcourt player the Suns have.
Bell... solid numbers in Utah have been turned into a JJ'esque average of 16 points, 4 rebounds and 3 assists with very high percentages that were never there before Nash.

The MVP took a hodgepodge of scrubs, castaways and role players and has them in the Western Conference Finals without the team's starting frontcourt.

True everyone above had talent, but it took Nash to maximize it.

[BillsCarnage]

This years grizz were veteran led and won 49 games, more than either LA team.

The avg margin of victory was 14pts and it took a 5pt game to bring it down to that. Sounds like the Grizz really gave the Mavs a battle.

[pussyface]

billscarnagie: you are right, the mavs totally waxed that grizzlies' ass.

johns: "He may not be a top-10 player in reguards to pure skill or potential"
this is where we agree and thats important

[pussyface]

there is an amalgamation of factors that have led to the emergence of a new generation of quality suns players.

steve nash is one of them, but by no means the only reason the team is where it is. lets not forget, as a for instance, the contributions of the teams leading SCORER and rebounder Shawn Marion.

[JMarkJohns]

there is an amalgamation of factors that have led to the emergence of a new generation of quality suns players.

steve nash is one of them, but by no means the only reason the team is where it is. lets not forget, as a for instance, the contributions of the teams leading SCORER and rebounder Shawn Marion.

If You think Shawn Marion is a reason for other players having career years you're nuts. In fact, it can be argued that Marion has benefitted as much as any of those other players from Nash. Check out his pre-Nash, with-Nash PPG, RPG and percentages.

Shawn Marion is a finisher. Not a creator. Them's the facts. He depends upon others to generate his offense. He hasn't the ability to create for himself or others.

You are fooling yourself if you think the Suns are anyone but Nash. This is why the team has struggled to even score (despite the depth of scorers) when Nash is injured. He does it all for them. Without him, not only can they not consistantly finish or shoot a high percentage, they can't even consistantly get shots off.

You act like you're an authority on the Suns when you've probably seen, counting these playoffs, 20 games or so. I know, I know, this is a message board, so you'll come back and say you've seen many, many more. But your ignorance shows the truth; that you, my friend, know very little about the Suns, let alone the intricacies of their offense. You're speaking to someone about who's maybe missed 20 games over the past two years. It's probably closer to 12-15. I tape just about every game, reguardless of whether I watch it live. I'm a statistician by trade and know how to review film and know exactly what to look for by habit.

I know.

[pussyface]

...you acted like Nash got a ragtag bunch of nobodies to this point, but Marion is clearly an all-star level player. According to Dantoni, Marion is a top 5 player in this league (i know, this is not true at all.)

from hearing how you guys defend Nash's mvp awards though, you would never know that there was another elite player on the team.

nash has one more allstar playing with him than guys like dirk/kobe/lbj, and they dont seem to garner as much special consideration/sympathy.


...this guy is one incredibly underwhelming two time mvp.

i do agree with you though that playing with Nash is helpful to a guy like Marion. Nash generally elevates the play of his teammates on the offensive end (though he obviously is not a guy you want on your team on the defensive end)

[MadDog73]

Why would a mavs fan hate on Nash?

Or Finley for that matter?

WTF is wrong with you people?!?

[TheSanityAnnex]

Bottom line- Without Nash the Suns are nothing.

[pussyface]

It's probably closer to 12-15. I tape just about every game, reguardless of whether I watch it live. I'm a statistician by trade and know how to review film and know exactly what to look for by habit.

I know.'---JOHNS
hehe, this guy is intense. it is funny how you think that because you are a fan you speak with infallability about the team you are obviously biased towards.

as for me being a bitter mavs fan or something you will find no evidence of that in my reasoned posts. i like nash personally and believe he's an outstanding, all star level player.

[Louae]

Here's the thing. Nash isn't just a really good PG. Anyone who think he's just really good is missing the facts. A Nash led team has led the League in offense for the past five seasons. That's not a coincidense, considering the amount of player turnover both Dallas and Phoenix has had.

If Dirk went down and Terry averaged 20-10, he wouldn't be enough to get them to the Conference Finals. I'm not sure Dallas would make the playoffs without Dirk, so your argument is very flawed.

Fact is, Last year many people questioned Nash by saying "but he has Amare". Well, this year he didn't and they have gone farther this year without him than they did last year with him. This is because of Nash.

He may not be a top-10 player in reguards to pure skill or potential, but on impact of a team, he's easily a top-3 player. He makes everyone better. Don't give me the "Phoenix" system either, but if you knew anything about the Suns, you'd know the system is Steve Nash. D'Antoni has said on many occasions he just lets Nash run the show. Everything you see is Nash. Is is the writer and director of the Suns offense. Everything is based on his play, which is why when Nash struggles, the Suns struggle and why when Nash plays good, the Suns play good. He's the end all, be all of this team. No one player in the League has more responsibility within an offense and no one player in the League can get so much out of so little.

And Yes, I do mean little.

Diaw... say what you want,, but he was a scrub throw in as part of the JJ trade. Phoenix ups have admitted to being surprised at his skills.
Jones... when he got consistant playing time (lost it around March due to injuries and Tim Thomas' acquisition) he was a 14-point, high percentage shooter in his first real year of playing time.
Barbosa... Look at last year's numbers (as a backup to Nash), then look at this year's numbers (as a SG next to Nash).
Tim Thomas... He was traded three times within the last three years and was eventually waived. He's been a career underacheiver and yet is now the best offensive frontcourt player the Suns have.
Bell... solid numbers in Utah have been turned into a JJ'esque average of 16 points, 4 rebounds and 3 assists with very high percentages that were never there before Nash.

The MVP took a hodgepodge of scrubs, castaways and role players and has them in the Western Conference Finals without the team's starting frontcourt.

True everyone above had talent, but it took Nash to maximize it.

Damn good post. That was spot on.

[JMarkJohns]

First off, you're addressing a post who chose Dirk as the MVP. So, just don't assume anything from all this Nash defense...


...you acted like Nash got a ragtag bunch of nobodies to this point, but Marion is clearly an all-star level player. According to Dantoni, Marion is a top 5 player in this league (i know, this is not true at all.)

Let's see, what part of scrubs (Diaw, House), castoffs (Thomas, Jones) and roleplayers (Bell, KThomas) don't you understand? You act as if he's got five All-Stars on his team. You act as if each of these players was something special BEFORE they were on Nash's team.


from hearing how you guys defend Nash's mvp awards though, you would never know that there was another elite player on the team.

Yes, he's got an All-Star player on his team. Unforunately said player does about as much on his own for the Suns offense as Ben Wallace does on his own for the Pistons offense. You act is if Marion is Tracy McGrady. He's not. He is wholly dependant upon others for his offense. Be it half-court, transition or putbacks (off others misses).



nash has one more allstar playing with him than guys like dirk/kobe/lbj, and they dont seem to garner as much special consideration/sympathy.

They shouldn't. First off, how many MVP's in history were their team's lone great player? What, maybe 10? Hell, Dirk has the deepest team in the League behind him. True, none are great, but Howard is borderline All-Star calibur with enough touches and games played. Terry is a very good player. Kobe has his own demons to deal with before he ever wins an award like MVP and LeBron plays in the East and had a poor record and average against the top teams. That ultimately cost him.



...this guy is one incredibly underwhelming two time mvp.

Incredably underwelming because he took a bunch of rejects and got them to the Western Conference Finals, overcoming injuries to several along way, including season-ending injuries to what would have been his starting frontcourt. You take Dirk and Howard off the Mavs, are they where they are today? You take the Wallaces' off Detroit, are they where they are today? You take Shaq and Zo off of Miami, are they where they are today? Duncan off San Antonio? Brand off Los Angeles? O'Neal off Indiana? Gasol off Memphis? Come on. You are grossly understating the significance of what Nash has accomplished this year. Even in just the regular season. The Suns led the League in every major offensive statistic, despite the turnover, unfamilierity and injury. When the offense is solely based upon one player's skills then there can only be one reason for this.


i do agree with you though that playing with Nash is helpful to a guy like Marion.


from hearing how you guys defend Nash's mvp awards though, you would never know that there was another elite player on the team.

Contradictory, don't you think? Nash is what makes Marion elite. Marion is a great player, but he's an average offensive player. Whatever good you see from him largely stems from Nash.

[Louae]

...this guy is one incredibly underwhelming two time mvp.

Are you on crack? I find what he's done this year as amazing.




i do agree with you though that playing with Nash is helpful to a guy like Marion. Nash generally elevates the play of his teammates on the offensive end (though he obviously is not a guy you want on your team on the defensive end)

I find it ironic that you say that when the same case can be made for Nowitski.

[pussyface]

although i haventyet finished reading your novel, one consistent fallacy in your reasoning really stands out.

"Let's see, what part of scrubs (Diaw, House), castoffs (Thomas, Jones) and roleplayers (Bell, KThomas) don't you understand? You act ias iff he's got five All-Stars on his team. You act ias if each of these players was something special BEFORE they were on Nash's team." You

This logic is flawed in that it doenst establish a causal relationship as fas as Nash being the reason all these guys got so much better.

I agree Nash helps others extend their offseason game.

But I can stand around and say "jerry stackhouse was boo'd garbage in Washington before he played with Dirk." ..."josh howard was nothing but a latefirst round scrub until he got lucky and got drafted to play along Dirk."

This does not in any way prove that Dirk is responsable for these guys success.

As a for instance, take Diaw. It is not surprising to me that a guy drafted very young straight out of Europe could struggle mightilly for a few years (even Dirk struggled his rookie yr) before getting it together and playing the way they were always capable of.
obviously, playing under dantoni/nash is helpful too, but in this argument you are giving to much credit to Nash for factors that are beyond his control.

[pussyface]

"I find it ironic that you say that when the same case can be made for Nowitski."

to compare those 2 guys as equal defensively at this stage of their career is a joke. nash is truly terrible as a defender, while Dirk is certainly solid.

...most digs at Dirk's D are rooted in how bad he was at it when he came into the league. this is an area of his game he has clearly improved on drastically. nash has never taken the steps to become a quality defensive player, but I dont think the people in Phoenix care about that. ...with a dazzling offense most the time they dont have to.

[JMarkJohns]

although i haventyet finished reading your novel, one consistent fallacy in your reasoning really stands out.

"Let's see, what part of scrubs (Diaw, House), castoffs (Thomas, Jones) and roleplayers (Bell, KThomas) don't you understand? You act ias iff he's got five All-Stars on his team. You act ias if each of these players was something special BEFORE they were on Nash's team." You

This logic is flawed in that it doenst establish a causal relationship as fas as Nash being the reason all these guys got so much better.

I agree Nash helps others extend their offseason game.

But I can stand around and say "jerry stackhouse was boo'd garbage in Washington before he played with Dirk." ..."josh howard was nothing but a latefirst round scrub until he got lucky and got drafted to play along Dirk."

This does not in any way prove that Dirk is responsable for these guys success.

As a for instance, take Diaw. It is not surprising to me that a guy drafted very young straight out of Europe could struggle mightilly for a few years (even Dirk struggled his rookie yr) before getting it together and playing the way they were always capable of.
obviously, playing under dantoni/nash is helpful too, but in this argument you are giving to much credit to Nash for factors that are beyond his control.

Obviously you know too little about basketball to really have an educated opinion on the matter. You hate Nash because he left your team and you have since been poisoned by Cuban's backstabbing of him.


Diaw got every opportunity to play in Atlanta. Tim Thomas got every opportunity to play everywhere he went. House could never seize a consistant spot in a rotation. Jones could never either.

Then they all matriculate to the Valley and in one season each is having the best years of their careers.

If you want to chalk it up to coincidense, then go on ahead. It only proves your ignorance on the matter. PG's have one job. To make the offense work. Some PG's score, others pass. Nash does both and he does them as well as anyone in the game right now. As a byproduct of his skills, others have consistantly over the course of his career, turned from scrubs to role players, from role-players to stars and from stars to All-Stars.

Sometimes it's not all him, IE Dirk and even Amare (to an extent), but this year and in this case, it is all Nash. Again, you act like you're an authority on the matter and you really have no idea what you're talking about.

Without Nash's pic-n-roll skills (one of the few who consistantly use the method and use it well), Diaw and Tim Thomas would still be benchwarmers. If you knew anything about the Suns, you'd know that those two became stars when they were involved in it. Same with Amare. Again, it's just another example of how each's offense is based off of Nash.

When he's not driving and dishing, he's pic'n-n-roll'n. When he's not doing either, he's leading the break. It's all him.

Not that any amount of logic can shoot you off of your high horse.

You are obviously entrenched in your animosity of him.

You are the reason I said what I said in the "Suns in Finals" thread.

Haters will keep hating, while thinkers may finally start thinking differently.

[pussyface]

"Obviously you know too little about basketball to really have an educated opinion on the matter. You hate Nash because he left your team and you have since been poisoned by Cuban's backstabbing of him."--you

Not that any amount of logic can shoot you off of your high horse.

You are obviously entrenched in your animosity of him." -you

-------------------------------------------------------------
this is not the post of a dispassionate, logical observor. while my posts have been even keel, you are the one making crazy inferences. as I said, I like Nash personally and give him credit for being an all star level player and for elevating the players around him offensively.

listen to what im saying: i know Diaw sucked in Atlanta. But his emergence for the Suns is not totally unpredictable: hes a guy who was a lottery pick only a few years ago and absolutely loved by scouts....like a lot of foreign-born players making the adjustment to the nba at a very young age (such as Dirk) he was bad right out of the gate. i admit his game is helped by nash, but i dont give Nash all the credit to validate a bogus MVP award.

I can only imagine if DeSagana Diop had been picked up by you guys off the trash heap like he was by us. Suns people would attribute his turnaround as a jewel in the argument for Nash's MVP... (he was a scrub! he couldnt get off the bench before playing with Nash!).

...maybe im wrong, but I assure you my basis of operation is logic and not a blind hatred of Nash. I'm not going to resort to the measures you have used to try to discredit me.

Please quote me from my earlier posts in ways that indicat that I have a personal vendetta against Nash and have not been arguing my case on strictly basketball merits.

Just as you can acuse me of being bitter, I can accuse you of being a blind homer. That doesn't mean either will be entirely correct...

[JMarkJohns]

I'm no longer wasting my time. You have nothing new and we just keep going around in a vicous circle of "I'm right, you're wrong"... Obviously I'm not disuading you, you aren't dissuading me and really, only the two of us care at this point.

You've already proven yourself to be numbskull who thinks he knows things about things he knows nothing about... so I'm through.

No good can come from this. My point is proven and those with an open mind can see it's well thought out, well documented and proven to be accurate.

Those who hate are welcome to keep on hating.

Just don't crap on a plate and expect me to believe it's pudding.

You have a very flawed notion about both importance to a team and basketball in general.

Hey, we were all there at one point as well... Thank God I'm past it...

[pussyface]

jmarks...

Your skills in this argument have been masterful and reminiscent of Socrates himself.


If you don't want to argue for Nash on the merits of his game and would prefer to make this a personal battle, than I agree that it is best to end this conversation.

...I wish you the best in the future. whatever you do, just dont ever pause for one moment to take a second to consider the other side or the possibility that you may not be 100% correct.

[JMarkJohns]

Pot, meet Kettle.

[pussyface]

your attempts at comedy make your attempts at rhetoric/arguing seem brilliant by comparison.

"dont shit on my plate and tell me its pudding."
that was a good one too.

are you a professional comedian by trade?

what does your pot kettle black reference even mean? where was the hypocrisy in my post? if you are implying that i'm the one who steered this argument towards the personal and away from basketball, than that notion can be dispelled by reading the contents of this thread.

[2centsworth]

I like Nash a whole bunch but I think I can name 10 players I rather have too:

Duncan, Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Shaq, Brand, Garnett, Dwight Howard, Ginobilli!

[TheSanityAnnex]

I'll say it again, the Suns ain't shit without Nash.

[TheSanityAnnex]

I like Nash a whole bunch but I think I can name 10 players I rather have too:

Duncan, Dirk, Lebron, Kobe, Wade, Shaq, Brand, Garnett, Dwight Howard, Ginobilli!
These guys aren't pointguards, so who gives a fuck.

[pussyface]

nash is considered league MVP...

...you cant get that award twice and expect people not to compare your overall contributions to the outstanding players who play other positions.

even though nash is maybe the best point gaurd, he doesnt have the complete game you expect out of an MVP.

...we could all agree to call LeBron a pointgaurd, and i have no doubt he is a better allround player than nash and it really isnt that close.

[TheSanityAnnex]

nash is considered league MVP...

...you cant get that award twice and expect people not to compare your overall contributions to the outstanding players who play other positions.

even though nash is maybe the best point gaurd, he doesnt have the complete game you expect out of an MVP.

...i'll call LeBron a pointgaurd, and i have no doubt he is a better allround player than nash and it really isnt that close.
I never said he is the MVP. I didn't even vote for the MVP, what is the point? Nash means more to his team than pretty much any other team. Have you seen the Nashless Suns play?

[JMarkJohns]

what does your pot kettle black reference even mean? where was the hypocrisy in my post? if you are implying that i'm the one who steered this argument towards the personal and away from basketball, than that notion can be dispelled by reading the contents of this thread.

In reference to this.


...whatever you do, just dont ever pause for one moment to take a second to consider the other side or the possibility that you may not be 100% correct.

You ask for merits, then dismiss everything as luck, chance and coincidense.

Diaw was not a lottory pick. I guess you figured since the Hawks selected him he must have been a very high pick, but he wasn't. He was the 21st overall pick. He was known as a defensive stopped upon entering the League. No one had any idea about this offensive game. Until he teamed with Nash.

And you're oh so clever attempt at humor with the "Diop" swipe actually has legs. Not that you intended it to, but if you knew anything about basketball you'd know that the season prior to this one, the Suns signed career underacheiver Steven Hunter one month after he was a throw in in a trade and was then promtly waived. He went on to have a career year alongside Nash, opted out of his League minimum salary and was signed a 5 year, 16 million dollar contract with Philly, who, no more than four months later was looking to dump the waste of talent.

You see, Nash is the one constant that you constantly overlook or dismiss.

You say I'm coming across as 100% correct on the matter. You criticize me for it. Then you pompously sit their and dismiss everything offered, therefore standing by your claims that Nash isn't a top-10 player. Infering he's overrated and that his MVP's are a joke. That he's nothing more than pretty good PG who helped a team of overacheivers to the Finals utilizing a system taylormade for his skills.

You talk and talk and talk and talk about all these scrubs, castoffs and roleplayers being some kind of talent before Nash, despite none of them ever doing anything of note. You talk and talk and talk and talk how Nash benefits from the Suns system and how this system is what makes these underacheivers overacheive for the first time in their careers to the point where they are winning awards and receiving acclaim. You talk and talk and talk and talk about how it's all a coincidense that Nash is leader of this team, but really isn't anything special.

I tell you Nash is the system. I give proven facts in reguards to his teams. I tell you everything you'd ever need to know about it.

Yet you are the one who, without much of any support, claim Nash is underwelming. You cannot be disuaded from your point of view, no matter the content offered to you, yet you sit there all high and mighty casting frowns upon those who believe they are correct in their opinion.

You imply it's wrong to be so confident, all the while being confident in your flawed ideas, facts and notions.

But go ahead. Dismiss this. It's what you do.

Just as you imply I'm a blind homer, I tell you I CHOSE Dirk for MVP this year.
Just as you imply I'm a blind homer, I tell you I CHOSE the Mavs over the Suns in this series.

You dismiss everything that's been said, yet sit in judgement of those who do the same, despite having a much better reason to do so.

You offer nothing of meaning.

[2centsworth]

These guys aren't pointguards, so who gives a fuck.
sensitive. The thread title is he is not a top 10 PLayer, not PG.

[JMarkJohns]

sensitive. The thread title is he is not a top 10 PLayer, not PG.

Yes, but if you believe Dwight Howard and Manu Ginobili are top-10 players, you're incredably mistaken and on top of that, the thread's creator said "If he could choose one player for one year to win a Title, he could think of 10 players he'd choose over Nash"

If you're choosing Howard and Ginobili as you team's Title foundation, then you're going to come up short.

Nash, for all his weaknesses has been to the Wester Conference Finals three times out of the last four years. Had his best bigmen not gotten hurt in 02-03 and this year, maybe he'd have gotten farther.

To just completely dismiss Nash for his defensive flaws is insane. It's like dismissing Ben Wallace for his offensive flaws.

[pussyface]

ben wallace could never be league MVP given that his game is so uneven.
...the same could be said of nash. there are too many guys who can do both well to give the award to a oneway player

[pussyface]

dwight howard is about to be a top 10 player in the league for the next 10 years

[pussyface]

...thanks for correcting me on Diaws draft status.

I thought he was a higher pick than that.

[JMarkJohns]

dwight howard is about to be a top 10 player in the league for the next 10 years

Are you telling me for one year, you'd take Dwight Howard over Steve Nash?! One Year?!

You made the criteria.

For the next ten years. Fine. Maybe even next five. But for this past year or for next year, you're telling me you'd take a raw, offensively unskilled big man with two years under his belt over Nash, arguably the best PG in the game?

[2centsworth]

Yes, but if you believe Dwight Howard and Manu Ginobili are top-10 players, you're incredably mistaken and on top of that, the thread's creator said "If he could choose one player for one year to win a Title, he could think of 10 players he'd choose over Nash"

If you're choosing Howard and Ginobili as you team's Title foundation, then you're going to come up short.

Nash, for all his weaknesses has been to the Wester Conference Finals three times out of the last four years. Had his best bigmen not gotten hurt in 02-03 and this year, maybe he'd have gotten farther.

To just completely dismiss Nash for his defensive flaws is insane. It's like dismissing Ben Wallace for his offensive flaws.
You don't watch the spurs enough. During the Playoffs Manu is easily a top 10 performer, but unless you watch a lot of spurs basketball you can't possibly know that.

as far as one year guys every player needs talent around them.

[pussyface]

manu is great and all, but not a top 10 player.
i think thats pushing it. youd have to rank him above guys like arenas/amare etc to put him that high.

hes likely the third best on his team right? im sure there are 8 other guys in the league who are better.

having said that, if the mavs could sign only gino or nash at this point for next year, i'd probably take gino.

if they could only sign nash or d howard for one year (next year), im taking Howard.

...doesnt mean howard could do for phoenix what nash does for phoenix and be as big of a difference maker. but on a team playing standard, championship style basketball like the Mavs, i'll take the big man over Nash.

06 mavs + dwight howard = unstoppable.
06 mavs + steve nash = a force to be reckoned with, but with vulnerabilities.

[JMarkJohns]

You don't watch the spurs enough. During the Playoffs Manu is easily a top 10 performer, but unless you watch a lot of spurs basketball you can't possibly know that.

as far as one year guys every player needs talent around them.

I watch a good portion of every single playoff game. EVERY SINGLE GAME.

Manu has point totals of 10, 32, 8, 3, 27, 10, 15, 13, 24, 26, 18, 30 and 23.

He had seven games under 20 points, six above 20. He was just as likely to go 15-or-below (six times) as 23-or-above (six).

He's windly inconsistant. Largely due to injury, but that's just my point. If you think Manu, inconsistancies and injuries included, is a top-10 player, you're flat-out crazy.

[pussyface]

jmark... were on the same page here little buddy. how bout that.

[Holmes_Fans]

Nash is the OPOY, MVP should be given to the player who is the best all around player offensivley and defensivly. Nash gets 10 assist a game because of the time of system they run.

and the no amare, joe johnson or quentin richardson reason is bullshit. The suns knew he we was gonna be gone most of the season and the other 2 are just roleplayers. What has johnson does in atlanta where he can't just spot up shoot?

Nash won the MVP because people never get to see him play, 2/3 of the voters probably say a couple full games. Then they watch sportscenter and see him have 1 cool behind the back pass and think he is great. It was the same situation with Reggie Bush and the hiesman voting, all sportswriters saw of him were the same 10 plays ESPN showed over and over.

[JMarkJohns]

Nash is the OPOY, MVP should be given to the player who is the best all around player offensivley and defensivly. Nash gets 10 assist a game because of the time of system they run.

Nash is the offensive player of the year. Very true.

However, the MVP stands for most valuable player. Not best scorer or rebounder or best all around or best season. MOST VALUABLE. That's what Nash and Dirk are to their teams, despite each's defensive shortcomings.

You obviously haven't read this thread. If you had you would see where even D'Antoni says Nash IS the system. He's in charge of everything. If you credit the system, you MUST credit Nash. It's that simple.



and the no amare, joe johnson or quentin richardson reason is bullshit. The suns knew he we was gonna be gone most of the season and the other 2 are just roleplayers. What has johnson does in atlanta where he can't just spot up shoot?

Laughable. Utterly laughable. So, you think if Dallas had known entering the season it would be without Josh Howard, Jason Terry and Jerry Stackhouse, that they'd be where they are today with just Dirk, Harris and Daniels?

I don't.



Nash won the MVP because people never get to see him play, 2/3 of the voters probably say a couple full games. Then they watch sportscenter and see him have 1 cool behind the back pass and think he is great. It was the same situation with Reggie Bush and the hiesman voting, all sportswriters saw of him were the same 10 plays ESPN showed over and over.

This is idiocy. This is the first time I've ever heard that being on the West Coast and not having the voters see your games work to your advantage.

There is a reason why these people vote. They aren't shlups off the street. They are qualified voters. I'm sure a great deal of them put a great deal of thought into it. I doubt SportsCenter made their minds up. If it had, it would have been either Kobe or James, since ESPN strokes their manhood all day long.



You obviously know nothing about Bush. I'm not a USC guy, but that kid was sick. Yes, he was better than Young this year over the course of the season and was so against a much tougher schedule.

He had a game where he totaled over 500 yards of offense and it came against a top-25 team. HE TOTALED OVER 500 yards.

That's rediculous.

[pussyface]

everything this guy doesnt agree with is "laughable" and "idiocy."

to me its pretty obvious that kobe bryant was the mythical offensive player of the year.

[pussyface]

You obviously know nothing about Bush. I'm not a USC guy, but that kid was sick. Yes, he was better than Young this year over the course of the season and was so against a much tougher schedule.

He had a game where he totaled over 500 yards of offense and it came against a top-25 team. HE TOTALED OVER 500 yards.

That's rediculous-------you
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
the heisman trophy is not rewarded for one game, but if it was it might have gone to VY on his 600+ yard performance versus OSU.

bush is great but had some games he didn't do much in...
...if you think having the most spectacular highlight reel i've ever seen was not a big factor in bush getting that award or that there is no truth to the idea that many heisman voters historically dont follow west coast teams as closely due to the time zone factor, than you just might be the one who is "ridiculous." you argue to back up the agenda you bring to the discussion, and are not partial to letting truth get in the way.

[JMarkJohns]

everything this guy doesnt agree with is "laughable" and "idiocy."

So, you think the NBA hands out MVP ballots to shlups who don't watch games? OK, now, do you think the NBA hands out two-thirds of its MVP ballots out to shlups who only follow the NBA from SportsCenter? OK, now lastly, do you really think with the NBA handing out two-thirds of its MVP ballots to shlups who only follow the NBA via SportsCenter, the Suns, a West Coast team, is going to get an advantage from the Eastern Sports Propoganda Network?

It's crazy!

And Yes, whenever a team advances to the Western Conference Finals without it's starting frontcourt, I'd say there's some significance.

Like I said, could Dallas have done it without Dirk and Howard? Could San Antonio have done it without Duncan and Nazr? Could the Clippers have done without Brand and Kaman?

Why is it so hard to admit there's significance to it? If it was the Mavericks advancing without the aid of Dirk, it would be noteworthy. I know this because it was noteworthy when they lost to San Antonio in 02-03 because of Dirk's injury. If it matters when a team loses, it matters when a team wins.

[pussyface]

his point was not that they are biased towards the west coast, but that they live in the east so for practical reasons (massive time zone difference) many of them don't actually watch PAC 10 teams the way they follow the teams that are local to them/they grew up with.

...Bush became a runaway heisman winner largely because of his incredible highlight plays. I remember hearing play by play guys say things like "wow! just give this guy the hesiman right now! ive never seen anything like this!"

in our 30 secon soundbite world, does it seem like "laughable idiocy" to you that this could trump what hindsight indicates is the more substantive accomplishments of young? texas-young is way < usc - bush.

young became nothing more than an also ran in the race...he was a way distant second. sound right to you?

[pussyface]

the only relevance any of this has, is that it goes to showing that you dont listen to the arguments people are making against your points.

your points are generally reasonable. by the same token, many of the counterarguments made to them are reasonable, but you just fly off about something irrelevant (like saying the east doesnt favor the west) and dismiss the other person as crazy without taking into account the merits of what they are saying.

...now I know there is no truth to what im saying here...tell me where im going wrong and am crazy...

[JMarkJohns]

the heisman trophy is not rewarded for one game, but if it was it might have gone to VY on his 600+ yard performance versus OSU.

Vince Young didn't have 600+ yards vs. Ohio State. He passed for 270, rushed for 70, passed for 2 TD's, three 2 INT's and was sacked three times.

That's 340 yards, not 600+.

Bush had seven games with at least two touchdowns scored. He had eight games with at least 100 yards rushing, including four of 150 or greater and two of 250 or greater (last two games of the year). He never fumbled (until the Title game, though that was more of a lateral, than actual fumble).

True, the highlight real runs helped, but imagine the numbers if he hadn't have split time. That doesn't factor in, but the fact he split time and still put up the numbers he did was amazing.

[pussyface]

osu= oklahoma state.
care to give the particulars of that performance?

[JMarkJohns]

the only relevance any of this has, is that it goes to showing that you dont listen to the arguments people are making against your points.

Yes I do. He said Nash only won the MVP because two-thirds of the voters cast their ballots off two or three plays they caught on sportscenter.

That's exactly what his point was.

I said there's no way the NBA would allow this. I'm quite sure every voter is screened and has a long history of quality service to the League or its coverage.

There's no logical way to excuse someone for saying two-thirds of the voters are unqualified, casual observers of the NBA. Many of them have made it their life's work. I seriously question the sanity of a person who makes such a claim. It's completely outlandish.

If he'd have said some of Nash's highlight real passes helped sway a few voters, that's fine. That's logically possible and realistically true. But two-thirds of the voters casting their spur of the moment ballot after painstakingly covered the NBA for roughly seven months?

Please. Just Please...

[JMarkJohns]

osu= oklahoma state.
care to give the particulars of that performance?

I thought you were refering to THEE Ohio State University.

Forgive me.

Like I said, it wasn't just the highlight reals or the one game. Yes, those factored in, but it was the fact that he was arguably the best player on the best team with some of the most insane college performance in a decade (since Faulk), doing it all while splitting time.

I admit, Young showed how great he was in the Title game. I argued he should have gone #1 overall in the draft.

[pussyface]

SINCE FAULK???

ever heard of a guy called LaDainian Tomlinson? He was pretty productive in college too and set records like "most rush yrds in a game."

He didnt win the heisman though, because chris weinke was clearly a superior contributor.

[AZLouis]

Nash to Bush to Faulk to LT?

Next up - alternative fuels vs fuel efficient vehicles


Current score JMark 1, face 0

We'll call this a best of 3.

[BillsCarnage]

Yes, but if you believe Dwight Howard and Manu Ginobili are top-10 players, you're incredably mistaken and on top of that...

Manu no, but Howard might be in a year or two. The kid reminds me of Amare prior to last season. Still a bit raw, but developing quickly.


You don't watch the spurs enough. During the Playoffs Manu is easily a top 10 performer, but unless you watch a lot of spurs basketball you can't possibly know that.

as far as one year guys every player needs talent around them.

Could the same be said for Raja too? Heck, even TT. Both have stepped up huge for the Suns.


...doesnt mean howard could do for phoenix what nash does for phoenix and be as big of a difference maker. but on a team playing standard, championship style basketball like the Mavs, i'll take the big man over Nash.
But this is whats ironic.. Here's little ol Nash leading his team to w/in two victories of the finals WITHOUT a big man inside.


and the no amare, joe johnson or quentin richardson reason is bullshit. The suns knew he we was gonna be gone most of the season and the other 2 are just roleplayers.
But that's the funny part, the front office did nothing to give him any help. Despite having a trade exception and draft picks out the wazoo.


Nash won the MVP because people never get to see him play, 2/3 of the voters probably say a couple full games.
Yet at the end of the season those media types were all saying someone else, Lebron, Wade, Dirk, etc, should be MVP, not Nash. And when the voting came in it was a fookin landslide for Nash. Go figure..


bush is great but had some games he didn't do much in...
:lmao Yer kidding right? Though i thought White was the better player in the backfield this year for SC.


Current score JMark 1, face 0

We'll call this a best of 3.
Gotta say that pussface has been playing the role of "nail" to JM's hammer rather well thus far.

[TheSanityAnnex]

^^^^

Jesus Fucking Christ...................

How fucking long did that post take to write with all those quotes.

[BillsCarnage]

:lmao As long as it took you to read them? :lmao

I didn't feel like flooding the thread w/ multi posts like puss.

[JMarkJohns]

^^^^

Jesus Fucking Christ...................

How fucking long did that post take to write with all those quotes.

It's simple, you open two browser windows. Use one to create the message and the other to copy and paste quotes from.

I'm glad I have a mac, because I've had upwards of 10 browsers open at once :) OS10... damn fine machine...

[BillsCarnage]

I'm glad I have a mac, because I've had upwards of 10 browsers open at once :) OS10... damn fine machine...

Mac schmac.. Try multiple monitors ;-)

[JMarkJohns]

Mac schmac.. Try multiple monitors ;-)

I'm still saving up for my system at home. My POS Coompaq is on its final legs. Half the websites don't even show up any longer. I'm hopin by the fall.

I really like this Mac... Though your multiple moniter idea intrigues me...

[TheSanityAnnex]

:lmao As long as it took you to read them? :lmao

I didn't feel like flooding the thread w/ multi posts like puss.What is even funnier is................................I didn't even read them.:lmao

[BillsCarnage]

I'm still saving up for my system at home. My POS Coompaq is on its final legs. Half the websites don't even show up any longer. I'm hopin by the fall.

Build your own.. Or get one of the newer Dells, not a bad price.


I really like this Mac... Though your multiple moniter idea intrigues me...
Mac & Tiger, or whatever the latest Kitty OS is, are nice. I have no preference but use Windows because software is much more readily available ;-)

[Louae]

to compare those 2 guys as equal defensively at this stage of their career is a joke. nash is truly terrible as a defender, while Dirk is certainly solid.

...most digs at Dirk's D are rooted in how bad he was at it when he came into the league. this is an area of his game he has clearly improved on drastically. nash has never taken the steps to become a quality defensive player, but I dont think the people in Phoenix care about that. ...with a dazzling offense most the time they dont have to.

He's so good, they have to hide him on defense. Unfortunately for Nash, he can't hide from the guy who handles the ball on every possession. Look, give up, you're lost in bball arguments. Nowitski is better on defense than before, but he's far from being "solid" on defense.

[DirkAB]

bakrid the kings fan is laughing off the idea that there are ten humans on the planet who ball harder than Nash.


Nah, I was laughing at these ridiculous statements that you made in the second half of your post.



...but this guys no Lebron, no Dirk, no Tim Duncan, no Dwayne Wade...i'm not sure I wouldn't take Marion over him if I had my choice (much less Amare).

Call me old fashioned, but I'd like to see my league MVP lead their team in things like scoring and rebounding (assists are nice though, I'll give him that).

Seriously, I can handle somebody saying that he isn't one of the ten best players in the league, but I would disagree. I can handle somebody saying that Shaq deserved the MVP last season and LeBron this season, but I would disagree again. But I could see how somebody could make a legit arguement for those points. But what I laughable is somebody disguising a thread about one thing, Nash not being a top ten player in the league, and really not having the nerve to come out and say what you really mean, you feeling that Nash didn't deserve MVP consideration. If you can't see that if Nash wasn't the MVP of these last 2 seasons, he was no further back than second in line.

[pussyface]

this thread suggests that there is truth to the old expression that the popular, prevaling opinion is not always correct.

im not going to win any popularity contests with this opinion i guess.

[pussyface]

thats a fair point maybe I shouldnt be discussing his 2 time mvp status on this thread...

...seems like lots of people maybe do agree hes not a top ten player though, but somehow they have it in their minds that he is still worthy of mvp consideration. i dont see how that computes.

[JMarkJohns]

this thread suggests that there is truth to the old expression that the popular, prevaling opinion is not always correct.

im not going to win any popularity contests with this opinion i guess.

You're not going to win many games with the opinion either...

Again, when everyone think you're wrong, you stand tall, middle finger raised in defiance, stating, "I am as correct now, as I've ever been... I am as correct now, as I've ever been..."

Ready to admit maybe I'm not the only stubborn know-it-all in this thread?

[DirkAB]

thats a fair point maybe I shouldnt be discussing his 2 time mvp status on this thread...

...seems like lots of people maybe do agree hes not a top ten player though, but somehow they have it in their minds that he is still worthy of mvp consideration. i dont see how that computes.

Because this isn't an individual sport, it is a team sport, and what does Nash do for his team?

[JMarkJohns]

thats a fair point maybe I shouldnt be discussing his 2 time mvp status on this thread...

...seems like lots of people maybe do agree hes not a top ten player though, but somehow they have it in their minds that he is still worthy of mvp consideration. i dont see how that computes.

Then you haven't read my posts.

MVP is most valuable, not best overall or most talented.

You're making you claim based on talent, not impact. The award goes to the player who means the most to his team. Nash is that player for the Suns and he's up their with players like Dirk, LeBron and Kobe overall in the League.

The voters deemed Nash to mean more to his team than those others do to theirs. They deemed he holds the most value for his specific team, for that specific season.

[pussyface]

....i dont mean to be defiant. steve nash is not overrated.

[DirkAB]

....i dont mean to be defiant. steve nash is not overrated.

Then what was the point you were trying to make when you posted this thread?

[pussyface]

steve nash is the best player in the national basketball association

[JMarkJohns]

steve nash is the best player in the national basketball association

No he's not. :)

[2centsworth]

Could the same be said for Raja too? Heck, even TT. Both have stepped up huge for the Suns.

there's a difference between stepping up and carrying a team to a championship. Manu has carried the spurs in must win games. Plus, Raja and TT on their best days don't come close to what Manu has done.

[JMarkJohns]

True, but if every player is ont their best days, Manu still doesn't come close to being a top-10 player. He's very good, but he's a borderline top-25 player.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

True, but if every player is ont their best days, Manu still doesn't come close to being a top-10 player. He's very good, but he's a borderline top-25 player.
It's arguable. A lot has to do with the Coach and who's on their team. If you watch Spurs games Pop always sits Manu's ass down when he's on fire. He benched the guy in the Mavs series and other playoff series to add spark to the bench and Manu doesn't complain--while Barkley a Manu-Homer practically chastised Pop for benching Manu in a pivotal game 4 against the Mavs. Then Pop went back and started Manu in game 5 which he won with keyplays. Don't try to downplay Manu's abilities. He's a unique player with a multi-dimensional game. He's not just a scorer. He's one of the main reasons we went to a game 7.

You could say the same about Nash not being able to shine in Dallas under Nellie as much as he does with D'Antoni. So you may have an arguement that based on Manu's performance for the Spurs, he's not a top 10 player. But I think he could be if Pop knew how to use him better. This is a guy who's been a leader for Champions in and out of the NBA.

[AMOS7]

Let's just base this on overall talents and abilities for now and the future of this league.

Kobe Bryant
LeBron James
Tim Duncan
Amare Stoudamire
Dirk Nowitzki
Dwayne Wade
Shaq (I expect Dwight Howard to be at this spot in a few years)
Steve Nash
Tracy McGrady (ignore this season, due to his injuries and personal problems)
Allen Iverson/Kevin Garnett/Gilbert Arenas/Ben Wallace/Paul Pierce/Jermaine O'Neal/Ray Allen/Elton Brand/Vince Carter/etc. (hard to find a real clear cut number 10, just pick and choose, any can prove themselves to be worthy of a top 10 spot every night)

Nash is top 10 in today's NBA. Maybe not deserving of b2b MVP's, but he definitely deserves one of them.

[Booharv]

BUMP...

Now theres a pussyface thread on the first page as there should be at all times.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

:lmao, even in 2006 Spurs fans still made the ridiculous claim, "Manu would be GOAT :cry if fuckin Greg Popazit didn't bench him all the time :cry:cry:cry"

[joshdaboss]

Epic fail of a post if it isn't trolling. Nash puts up 50/40/90 seasons with 10+ APG like clockwork.

Marion. :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Would rather have Richard Jefferson than Shawn Marion.

[dirk4mvp]

Would rather have Richard Jefferson than Shawn Marion.

Why? RJ is a soft pussy and Marion is a gamer.

[Isitjustme?]

Somebody's still asshurt from the Finals.

[DMC]

Today the OP is true. In 2006 it was not.

[joshdaboss]

Why? RJ is a soft pussy and Marion is a gamer.

Neither one is soft and neither one is a 'gamer'. Marion is garbage, though. A couple of decent games in the finals doesn't change that.

[dirk4mvp]

rofl joshdaboss is a dumbass faggot

[Jodelo]

Epic fail of a post if it isn't trolling. Nash puts up 50/40/90 seasons with 10+ APG like clockwork.

Marion. :lmao:lmao:lmao:lmao

Would rather have Richard Jefferson than Shawn Marion.

http://www.gamer.ru/system/attached_images/images/000/308/224/original/NotSureIfSerious.jpg

[Amuseddaysleeper]

ROFL

Marion is much much better than RJ, come on guys

[IronMexican]

Why? RJ is a soft pussy and Marion is a gamer.

Chemistry, fagot.

I'd have RJ over Melo, as well.

[Monostradamus]

Chemistry, fagot.

I'd have RJ over Melo, as well.

In a world of hype, Jefferson just wins.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

It takes 5, to win 4

[Monostradamus]

It takes 5, to win 4

Believe.

[IronMexican]

Boring, dirty floppers, etc.. Whatever
:lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt::lobt2:

[IronMexican]

Believe.

One

[Monostradamus]

class = rings

classless nut punchers will never win a ring! :madrun :madrun :madrun

eyLn5M8c2Gw

tbh sooooooooooooooooooooooo glad Holt doesn't act like a classless asshole like Mark Cuban! That's why Cuban will never get a title!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[IronMexican]

Classless Ninja Turtle is the reason I left Dallas and vowed to never return. At least until 2013 when they host the Taco convention there.

[Monostradamus]

tbh spurs forum has a new thread, let's see if they address this issue head-on or just claim they're too classy to reply.

[DUNCANownsKOBE]

Believe.

One
One team, one goal

[DirkDoesWork]

class = rings

classless nut punchers will never win a ring! :madrun :madrun :madrun

eyLn5M8c2Gw

tbh sooooooooooooooooooooooo glad Holt doesn't act like a classless asshole like Mark Cuban! That's why Cuban will never get a title!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

"The Spurs turned this video"

Finley and the Spurts deserved it. Snitches get stitches.

[sribb43]

"If Mavs still had Nash over Terry they would be champions"

"If Mavs still had Harris over Kidd they would be contenders"

Fuck the Haters!!!!

:lobt2:

[BlackSwordsMan]

sribb43 aka the fucking rook of the chessboard boding niggas who step in front of him