Trading Tony Parker (hypothetical)

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Let's say he's not happy.

Let's say he gets fed up enough to go to Pop and asks for a trade. Who would you trade him for? Something realistic please.



Me personally, I'm not really sure. I'd get a decent PG back like a Speedy Claxton, who can fill the gap...and try to grab a solid big man to go along with TD.


Claxton
Manu
Bowen
Duncan
Decentbig


I could work with that lineup.

[ChumpDumper]

What do we do when Speedy misses his requisite 25 games?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

What do we do when Speedy misses his requisite 25 games?

The same thing we do when TP takes games/series off?

[yourtehclay]

The same thing we do when TP takes games/series off?

win 2 championships?

sign me up

[ChumpDumper]

If you're a hater, step up and say so. Don't be a pussy.

[Melmart1]

Is it October yet? :pctoss

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

You're lucky most of the Spurs posters are on vacation otherwise they'd be crying blasphemy.

The only PG I'd trade Parker for is Steve Nash, and Possibly Chris Paul...Other than that you can't really replace Parker, despite his shortcomings, he's still invaluable for the team. We just have to use him better.

The only reason Parker gets criticism is because Duncan had Manu step up his game as a possible Alternate 1st Option/ to carry the team when he's off in their Triple Threat in the 2005 run and again in the Mavs series, and a lot of fans were saying "Well??" coming into 2006 and all Parker kinda just showed was that he can be a consistent scorer in the regular season and shines against mediocre to good teams and that's pretty much it.

[Gummi]

What's up with you guys, averaging 21.1 points this playoffs is choking? He stepped up his scoring and played pretty darn well IMO.

And please stop the Speedy love affair. He's a backup PG that misses at least 20 games a season. We have a young PG that's going to lead this franchise when Duncan steps down and you want to trade him for a backup PG and get a "decent" big. Great idea. We aldready have two "decent" bigs.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

If you're a hater, step up and say so. Don't be a pussy.

On the contrary.

I was a Kidd > TP guy. But Parker won my respect. Sadly, he keeps losing it in the postseason and clutch moments.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

win 2 championships?

sign me up

Ya, I guess we should get a solid back for Speedy...if he ever chokes too.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

You're lucky most of the Spurs posters are on vacation otherwise they'd be crying blasphemy.

The only PG I'd trade Parker for is Steve Nash, and Possibly Chris Paul...Other than that you can't really replace Parker, despite his shortcomings, he's still invaluable for the team. We just have to use him better.

The only reason Parker gets criticism is because Duncan had Manu step up his game as a possible Alternate 1st Option/ to carry the team when he's off in their Triple Threat in the 2005 run and again in the Mavs series, and a lot of fans were saying "Well??" coming into 2006 and all Parker kinda just showed was that he can be a consistent scorer in the regular season and shines against mediocre to good teams and that's pretty much it.

I'm just saying if you had to trade him, who would it be for?

As for equal value...you're not going to get it at point. That's why I would go for a solid PG...then try to grab a solid center to go along with Tim.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

What's up with you guys, averaging 21.1 points this playoffs is choking? He stepped up his scoring and played pretty darn well IMO.

And please stop the Speedy love affair. He's a backup PG that misses at least 20 games a season. We have a young PG that's going to lead this franchise when Duncan steps down and you want to trade him for a backup PG and get a "decent" big. Great idea. We aldready have two "decent" bigs.

I'm not saying we should trade him. We shouldn't.

I'm saying if we had to...who would you look for to get in return.

[Gummi]

Answer me this please dont ban me! What is it that you expect from Tony. 30ppg maybe, maybe 10 assists pg. What is it that makes him so horrible that you want to trade? Please inform me.

And also, what to you is choking?

[ChumpDumper]

That's why I would go for a solid PG.So why did you list a fragile one?

[Gummi]

OK that's different, I wouldn't trade Tony for anyone right now, PG that is.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

So why did you list a fragile one?

I just put a name out there.

I'm referring to his game and not health.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

OK that's different, I wouldn't trade Tony for anyone right now, PG that is.

*sigh*


Ok. This is pointless. :rolleyes So much for my latenight fun, time to head to work. Howdy doody good people of ST.

[Gummi]

I'm not hating on you bro. I'm just sick of this Speedy talk and choking talk by Parker. That's all.

[ChumpDumper]

I just put a name out there.

I'm referring to his game and not health.Since when is health not a concern for a starting point guard?

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

I'm just saying if you had to trade him, who would it be for?

As for equal value...you're not going to get it at point. That's why I would go for a solid PG...then try to grab a solid center to go along with Tim.
i gotcha on that. But to bring it up doesn't go well with Spurs fans.

I get mad him sometimes, but I wouldn't trade him if we didn't have to. I can't think of any PG's that can replace him. Speedy replacing Parker would put a lot more pressure on Tim and Manu's shoulders. A solid Center would help though. But I think we need more than just two solid positions at 5 and 1 to make up for Parker's load.

[TheTruth]

Chris Paul is probably the only PG young/talented enough for me to even consider.

[wildbill2u]

If you trade one of the top five in any position, then you have meet these tests:

1. You have an adequate replacement in hand--at least top 15.
2. The player received must be a top five player at a position that needs shoring up; or
3. You get a lottery pick who will be a top five player at a position within two years.

[Rescueone]

The thing with Parker is he shoots illadvised shots. He was a big ass ball hog in the Dallas series and never got his WIDE OPEN teammates involved like a true point guard is supposed to do. Instead he kept shooting, and shooting, and missing and missing at critical moments. Yes, that's right he's a selfish ball hog, and looks to get his first. He thinks he's in the AI mode.

[SPARKY]

It's not an offseason without Spurs fans trading Tony Parker.

[Rescueone]

True that!

[SPARKY]

Pop told Tony to play like that in the Dallas series. Selfish?

[Rescueone]

That's excuses man, excuses. I thought he told him to play his normal game. If not, he should've that's on both of them. Yes that's selfish!

[SPARKY]

That's reality. Pop told Parker to score in that series.

[Slinkyman]

Let's say he's not happy.

Let's say he gets fed up enough to go to Pop and asks for a trade. Who would you trade him for? Something realistic please.



Me personally, I'm not really sure. I'd get a decent PG back like a Speedy Claxton, who can fill the gap...and try to grab a solid big man to go along with TD.


Claxton
Manu
Bowen
Duncan
Decentbig


I could work with that lineup.

that's horrible, you traded away our leading scorer for speedy and a "decent big"? Tony's worth alot more then that, he's only 24 and already one of the best players in the league and you wanna give him away for speedy?

For us to trade Parker, it would have to be a someone we'd never think we'd be able to get like Kobe, JOneal, Marion, Jamison, etc. if not you keep him but you don't trade for a 'decent big'? WTF? Parker for joel Przybilla :lol

[Rescueone]

Then why wasn't he on the floor in the last seconds of games 4, and 7 to take the last shot if Pop had so much confidence in him and his shot?

[SPARKY]

Situational spots. Pop wanted better shooters on the floor. Why would Pop wait until those moments to yank him if he was so badly deviating from the game plan?

[Rescueone]

I wouldn't trade the dude, but he really needs to start playing in the playoffs like he did in the regular season and get everyone involved for the Spurs to go all the way.

[Rescueone]

Situational spots. Pop wanted better shooters on the floor. Why would Pop wait until those moments to yank him if he was so badly deviating from the game plan?


There you go! in your own words

[SPARKY]

I wouldn't trade the dude, but he really needs to start playing in the playoffs like he did in the regular season and get everyone involved for the Spurs to go all the way.

Tell that to his coach then.

[SPARKY]

There you go! in your own words

What? I never claimed that TP was one of the best 3 point shooters on the team.

[Rescueone]

Tell that to his coach then.
If I had connections to POP I would. I hope he's reading on this board!

[Rescueone]

What? I never claimed that TP was one of the best 3 point shooters on the team.
They didn't need a three to win.

[ducks]

what point guard is aviable that the other team would trade for tp?
kidd-too old
ai- too injury prone and too old
kg= makes to much money
odom- not a point guard and he is a laker
k-martin- attitude problem
r jefferson- kidd is there no
j oneal- makes 18 million a year would not work
knick players= all make to much money

[SPARKY]

They didn't need a three to win.

Who were the Spurs going to in that situation? TD. Mavs collapse on the paint and you need shooters for him to kick it out to.

Why'd Manu take that 3 in the final minute of regulation in Game 7?

Pop didn't pull TP at the last minute because he was deviating from the game plan. TP was doing exactly what Pop expected of him. Referring to TP as "selfish" because of that is quite misguided.

Pop wanted TP to score because the Mavs were giving the Spurs that all day long.

[Rescueone]

Who were the Spurs going to in that situation? TD. Mavs collapse on the paint and you need shooters for him to kick it out to.

Why'd Manu take that 3 in the final minute of regulation in Game 7?

Pop didn't pull TP at the last minute because he was deviating from the game plan. TP was doing exactly what Pop expected of him. Referring to TP as "selfish" because of that is quite misguided.

Pop wanted TP to score because the Mavs were giving the Spurs that all day long.

Finley would have been a good choice. My opinion misguided? I don't think so! If one takes bad shots when others are open I call that misguided. Face it, call it what it was, he was being a ball hog. That's not Spurs basketball. swing it to the open man no matter who it is, for that person to take the shot. That's why the Spurs are on the outside looking in! PERIOD!

[ducks]

rebounding is why they are fishing

[Rescueone]

rebounding is why they are fishing
That goes with playing small ball!

[SPARKY]

Finley would have been a good choice. My opinion misguided? I don't think so! If one takes bad shots when others are open I call that misguided. Face it, call it what it was, he was being a ball hog. That's not Spurs basketball. swing it to the open man no matter who it is, for that person to take the shot. That's why the Spurs are on the outside looking in! PERIOD!

Ugh. He was a "ball hog" because Pop told him to be. Now how exactly is he a "selfish" player for doing what his coach asked of him?

[SPARKY]

Tony Parker was a significant reason why the Spurs pushed that series to 7 games.

[Rescueone]

Ugh. He was a "ball hog" because Pop told him to be. Now how exactly is he a "selfish" player for doing what his coach asked of him?
Sparky, cmon dude, you have to admit Parker was shooting way too much, even if POP told him to do so, while others were wide open. Dallas was giving him shots because he was missing them. When they go in good, but when he misses four in a row without looking in another direction is another story. Am I the only one that that feels this way. Clue, that's not Spurs basketball, never has been. Is it poor shooting, or poor coaching to deivate from what one normally does? Bad shots lead to fast breaks going the other way!

[Rescueone]

Tony Parker was a significant reason why the Spurs pushed that series to 7 games.
No Tim Duncan was!

[SPARKY]

Sparky, cmon dude, you have to admit Parker was shooting way too much, even if POP told him to do so, while others were wide open. Dallas was giving him shots because he was missing them. When they go in good, but when he misses four in a row without looking in another direction is another story. Am I the only one that that feels this way. Clue, that's not Spurs basketball, never has been. Is it poor shooting, or poor coaching to deivate from what one normally does? Bad shots lead to fast breaks going the other way!

Clue: A player is not "selfish" or a "ball hog" when he does what his coach asks of him.

Tony Parker scoring is not a part of Spurs Basketball?

[FromWayDowntown]

I can't believe that anyone would call out Parker for the way he played in these playoffs. He was great for the Spurs all the way through and would have been better if he hadn't been so beat up. He's found a consistent jumpshot that will only improve. Among true point guards, he's among the best scorers and maybe the most difficult guy to defend. Those things will only improve as his jump shot finds that consistency. He's 24 years old and he's played a crucial role in two championships with some monsterous playoff performances to his credit.

I'm also baffled by the thought that anyone would be satisfied with Speedy Claxton as a starting point guard in this city. The memories of one 4th Quarter somehow overcome any real rational thought -- it's funny how when Spurs fans swoon about Speedy, nobody ever mentions that it was Speedy's total ineffectiveness in Game 6 of the 2003 WCF that resulted in Steve Kerr seeing the floor at all in that game. I don't intend to throw Speedy Claxton under the bus; it would be great if there was some way for the Spurs to reacquire him. But the willingness of some to who want to cast Tony Parker aside in favor of Speedy Claxton is mind-boggling to me.

[ducks]

WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO GET IN RETURN FOR HIM?


spurs offseason is almost complete fire pop
trade tp

[Rescueone]

Clue: A player is not "selfish" or a "ball hog" when he does what his coach asks of him.

Tony Parker scoring is not a part of Spurs Basketball?

O.K. I guess we see things differently!

Parker position (PG) calls for him to create shots for his teammates, he's not a (SG)

When there's an open shot sure he's gonna score. I have no problems with him scoring points. but he should also be leading in assists every night out!

[SPARKY]

O.K. I guess we see things differently!

Parker position (PG) calls for him to create shots for his teammates, he's not a (SG)

When there's an open shot sure he's gonna score. I have no problems with him scoring points. but he should also be leading in assists every night out!

Spurs Basketball has not been about having a distributing point guard running the show since about the late 90s.

[ducks]

spurs usually make the extra pass
I will tell pop he can not throw it to duncan because they double team him and then td throws it to the open man for the basket because you want tp to get the assist

[Rescueone]

I can't believe that anyone would call out Parker for the way he played in these playoffs. He was great for the Spurs all the way through and would have been better if he hadn't been so beat up. He's found a consistent jumpshot that will only improve. Among true point guards, he's among the best scorers and maybe the most difficult guy to defend. Those things will only improve as his jump shot finds that consistency. He's 24 years old and he's played a crucial role in two championships with some monsterous playoff performances to his credit.

I'm also baffled by the thought that anyone would be satisfied with Speedy Claxton as a starting point guard in this city. The memories of one 4th Quarter somehow overcome any real rational thought -- it's funny how when Spurs fans swoon about Speedy, nobody ever mentions that it was Speedy's total ineffectiveness in Game 6 of the 2003 WCF that resulted in Steve Kerr seeing the floor at all in that game. I don't intend to throw Speedy Claxton under the bus; it would be great if there was some way for the Spurs to reacquire him. But the willingness of some to who want to cast Tony Parker aside in favor of Speedy Claxton is mind-boggling to me.

I don't think we should trade the dude. That's a givin. I just thought he shot way too much in the Dallas series for the team to be successful. And it showed.

I'd wouldn't go after Speedy, I think he would eat up too much of the MLE and he wouldn't get a young athletic 3 this team really needs in the WC. A better off season move would be to readdress the NO trade with JR Smith in the mix.

[Rescueone]

spurs usually make the extra pass
I will tell pop he can not throw it to duncan because they double team him and then td throws it to the open man for the basket because you want tp to get the assist

O.K Duck you do that

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I just put a name out there.

I'm referring to his game and not health.

You can't get one without the other.

[Kori Ellis]

Rescueone - Pop told Tony to shoot AT LEAST 25 times a game in the Dallas series. When I asked Pop a question about Tony's shooting after one of the early games of the series, he said that Tony needed to shoot even more, not less.

If you have a problem with the gameplan, then blame Pop not Tony.

PDBM - You have repeatedly said that Tony faded in these playoffs. Tony averaged 21 ppg in the postseason, including 20 ppg vs the Mavs. He only had one bad game vs the Mavs with 12 points. To say he faded is just fucking stupid. He was playing with 2 badly bruised thighs and a bad groin pull.

Another people don't get about Tony is that the Spurs game plan is to run the ball through MANU in the 4th quarters. So if Tony doesn't get a lot of points in the 4th, that's because of the system, not because of Tony.

If anyone faded in these playoffs, I guess it was Manu considering that he turned over the ball in several critical situations and when Pop screamed NO FOUL NO FOUL NO FOUL NO FOUL NO FOUL in the huddle in Game 7, Manu fouled. :rolleyes

I know y'all hate Tony but it's really stupid.

Tony didn't cost the Spurs the series. If it wasn't for Tony, the Spurs wouldn't have gotten to 7.

Rebounding and Defense caused the Spurs the series.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Wow, Pop is really stupid.

[Dartherus]

To the ones saying that Parker just followed Pop instructions to shoot a lot...let me ask you something...

Do you think that Pop in a very explicit way told Tony "take 25 or more shots per night, and shoot NO MATTER IF THERE'S A WIDE OPEN TEAMMATE"....do you think Pop told Tony that?

Other question, do you think it's possible that Pop has parker taking to many shots because he knows that when Parker is not scoring, he's pretty much useless in offense? due that he's too one-dimensional, and not like Tim and Manu, that can contribute in offense with a lot more of resources or skills when they're not scoring?

[Kori Ellis]

To the ones saying that Parker just followed Pop instructions to shoot a lot...let me ask you something...

Do you think that Pop in a very explicit way told Tony "take 25 or more shots per night, and shoot NO MATTER IF THERE'S A WIDE OPEN TEAMMATE"....do you think Pop told Tony that?

Other question, do you think it's possible that Pop has parker taking to many shots because he knows that when Parker is not scoring, he's pretty much useless in offense? due that he's too one-dimensional, and not like Tim and Manu, that can contribute in offense with a lot more of resources or skills when they're not scoring?


Parker wasn't missing all his wide open teammates.

Pop asked Tony to shoot a lot because the Mavs were sagging and they were trying to beat their defense.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Rescueone - Pop told Tony to shoot AT LEAST 25 times a game in the Dallas series. When I asked Pop a question about Tony's shooting after one of the early games of the series, he said that Tony needed to shoot even more, not less.

If you have a problem with the gameplan, then blame Pop not Tony.

PDBM - You have repeatedly said that Tony faded in these playoffs. Tony averaged 21 ppg in the postseason, including 20 ppg vs the Mavs. He only had one bad game vs the Mavs with 12 points. To say he faded is just fucking stupid. He was playing with 2 badly bruised thighs and a bad groin pull.

Another people don't get about Tony is that the Spurs game plan is to run the ball through MANU in the 4th quarters. So if Tony doesn't get a lot of points in the 4th, that's because of the system, not because of Tony.

If anyone faded in these playoffs, I guess it was Manu considering that he turned over the ball in several critical situations and when Pop screamed NO FOUL NO FOUL NO FOUL NO FOUL NO FOUL in the huddle in Game 7, Manu fouled. :rolleyes

I know y'all hate Tony but it's really stupid.

Tony didn't cost the Spurs the series. If it wasn't for Tony, the Spurs wouldn't have gotten to 7.

Rebounding and Defense caused the Spurs the series.I don't think Manu Faded in the playoff at all. His foul was a very HUGE MISTAKE, but that doesn't erase the wins he got for us in games 1, 5, and 6. Just the Three he made with 36 seconds left. IT WAS VERY DISAPPOINTING and UNFORTUNATE, but there was still game to be played it was almost as bad as the Rasheed fuck up, but not quite because we had a lot of time to make the final basket and there was still OT unlike the Pistons.

Anyway I think you should follow your own advice and not try to prop up and defend Tony at the expense of Manu or any other player. It's stupid to blame one player for the series.

Besides I think the complaints about Tony's jumpshots are legit. Pop may have said "I thought he should shoot more! " to a reporter like yourself. But I thnk that's just Pop saving face and not taking the bait to go ,"Oh I thought he should have curbed it a little" and criticize him for making mental mistakes by passing up his teammates shots that's between him and Tony. Anyone with half a brain knows telling a player to shoot more than 25 when they don't have a reliable Jumper like a Kobe or Iverson is just plain stupid. If Kobe shooting more than 25 hurts the team with all his offensive talents >>> than TONY Parker. Wanting Tony to shoot more when it clearly had Mavs taking advantage of that, disrupts the tempo and squanders possessions--and it SHOWED. Pop isn't a Phil Jackson or Pat Riley yet, but I doubt he'd be THAT STUPID.

[Kori Ellis]

Anyway I think you should follow your own advice and not try to prop up and defend Tony at the expense of Manu or any other player. It's stupid to blame one player for the series.

Umm.. I don't blame Manu. I think Manu was fucking awesome. I was the one telling people not to blame him for the foul/turnovers because if it wasn't for him they wouldn't be in those games. In my prior post in this thread, I was being sarcastic in regards to Manu to make a point (that no one player should be blamed). Thus this emoticon :rolleyes.

[Kori Ellis]

Pop may have said "I thought he should shoot more! " to a reporter like yourself. But I thnk that's just Pop saving face and not taking the bait to go ,"Oh I thought he should have curbed it a little"

He actually said that very early in the series to me (after Game 1?) and repeated it over and over in the series to Tony. It wasn't saving face. That was his game plan.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Umm.. I don't blame Manu. I think Manu was fucking awesome. I was the one telling people not to blame him for the foul/turnovers because if it wasn't for him they wouldn't be in those game. In my prior post in this thread, I was being sarcastic in regards to Manu to prove a point. Thus this emoticon :rolleyes.
I'm sorry. I thought you were rolling eyes at the No FOUL comments that Pop gave. The only thing I do give credence to is that Pop was right to swear when Manu fouled.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

He actually said that very early in the series to me (after Game 1?) and repeated it over and over in the series to Tony. It wasn't saving face. That was his game plan.
I don't know about Pop sometimes, then :lol. I hope he meant layups.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't know about Pop sometimes, then :lol. I hope he meant layups.

Well obviously he wanted Tony to get to the rack when he could because he's one of the best in the league in the paint, but asking him to shoot more was about him taking jumpshots. After the all-star break, Tony hit 46% of his jumpers outside 15 feet. So when the Mavs were sagging off him, Pop wanted him to shoot some J's. Tony's form on his jumper is much improved. He didn't shoot (% wise) well against the Mavs but a lot of that had to do with the fact that he had no lift for a few games.

My point of posting in this thread though was just for the thread starter who has repeatedly said in several threads that Tony "faded" badly again in the playoffs, which I don't think is the case at all.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Well obviously he wanted Tony to get to the rack when he could because he's one of the best in the league in the paint, but asking him to shoot more was about him taking jumpshots. After the all-star break, Tony hit 46% of his jumpers outside 15 feet. So when the Mavs were sagging off him, Pop wanted him to shoot some J's. Tony's form on his jumper is much improved. He didn't shoot (% wise) well against the Mavs but a lot of that had to do with the fact that he had no lift for a few games.

My point of posting in this thread though was just for the thread starter who has repeatedly said in several threads that Tony "faded" badly again in the playoffs, which I don't think is the case at all.
I know Parker tried despite injuries, but I really think Pop made a mistake by insisting confidence in Tony to make them when they clearly weren't there NOW as far as that series went. I guess Pop still has a lot to learn to correct some minor decision making that carries over into playoff success. He doesn't change it up nearly enough I noticed. It's the same every time, Parker gets us going in the 1st, Duncan carries us as well in the 1st, 2nd half. Manu gets the first half of the 3rd to stretch a lead with his offense. Manu seals it in the 4th. Blah blah. Ever think of going to Parker in game 3 of the Kings in the 4th quarter when Manu had 7 TO's?? Going to Manu in one of the series games to get the Spurs off in the 1st quarter? Going to Manu in OT instead of a clearly exhausted Duncan in game 7? Having Barry shoot more in a game who's been previously the highest percentage jumpshooter in the playoffs????

[ducks]

I agree I think pop should mix it up some

tp needs to score first that opens other players up
duncan usually gets 2 tp and duncan get 3 then manu in 4 with duncan


but if manu or duncan are out or have foul trouble tp is not used to being the go to go late in the game

mix it up during the season a little but
when manu fouled out in 4 it hurt in the playoffs becuase they usually go to him and no one else was mentaled prepared to take his place becuase they were not used to it.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

I agree I think pop should mix it up some

tp needs to score first that opens other players up
duncan usually gets 2 tp and duncan get 3 then manu in 4 with duncan


but if manu or duncan are out or have foul trouble tp is not used to being the go to go late in the game

mix it up during the season a little but
when manu fouled out in 4 it hurt in the playoffs becuase they usually go to him and no one else was mentaled prepared to take his place becuase they were not used to it.
yeah, Tony said he wants to be able to get to that level. I mean it'd be an upside if Manu can be relieved at times. I think that hurt him more that we kept going to him, when other players like Tim and a more confident Parker this year could have been exposed to more 4th quarter handling. It adds to the dynamic of pick your poison. Spurs become too predictable when Pop has his default formula in place. Manu got fouled on that turnover against the Kings, but bibby cheated by leaving Parker and going after Manu-- they expected him to drive and they went for the steal.

[MaNu4Tres]

Parker scola for heinrich and deng.....

Parker scola for Ridnour and Lewis

[TDMVPDPOY]

i dont think any team in the leagu would want a overrated pg who cant shoot. hell lets trade him to the pistons for delfino+ben wallace+draft pick

[ducks]

then who will ran point?

[ducks]

i dont think any team in the leagu would want a overrated pg who cant shoot. hell lets trade him to the pistons for delfino+ben wallace+draft pick


by the way coaches voted tp to be an allstar not fans:owned

[Rescueone]

Rescueone - Pop told Tony to shoot AT LEAST 25 times a game in the Dallas series. When I asked Pop a question about Tony's shooting after one of the early games of the series, he said that Tony needed to shoot even more, not less.

If you have a problem with the gameplan, then blame Pop not Tony.PDBM - You have repeatedly said that Tony faded in these playoffs. Tony averaged 21 ppg in the postseason, including 20 ppg vs the Mavs. He only had one bad game vs the Mavs with 12 points. To say he faded is just fucking stupid. He was playing with 2 badly bruised thighs and a bad groin pull.

Another people don't get about Tony is that the Spurs game plan is to run the ball through MANU in the 4th quarters. So if Tony doesn't get a lot of points in the 4th, that's because of the system, not because of Tony.

If anyone faded in these playoffs, I guess it was Manu considering that he turned over the ball in several critical situations and when Pop screamed NO FOUL NO FOUL NO FOUL NO FOUL NO FOUL in the huddle in Game 7, Manu fouled. :rolleyes

I know y'all hate Tony but it's really stupid.

Tony didn't cost the Spurs the series. If it wasn't for Tony, the Spurs wouldn't have gotten to 7.

Rebounding and Defense caused the Spurs the series.
I did in an earlier post. It's out of the norm for the Spurs to have a point guard shoot first and pass second without looking for teammates. You, by asking POP that question also seem to think he was shooting too much and not getting teammates involved. Am I right? I think if it wasn't for Duncan, the Spurs wouldn't have gotten to game 7. I can live with sharing the load. If the Spurs had several players score between 15-20 points is worse for the opposing team, because they wouldn't know who the Spurs were planning on going to at critical moments. If everyone was involved in the games instead of one or two players every other game, the Spurs would be in the finals. It's Parker's job to get his teammates touches. Also playing that small ball cost the Spurs in the area of rebounding and defense. To me they looked lost out there playing that way.

[Rescueone]

I don't think Manu Faded in the playoff at all. His foul was a very HUGE MISTAKE, but that doesn't erase the wins he got for us in games 1, 5, and 6. Just the Three he made with 36 seconds left. IT WAS VERY DISAPPOINTING and UNFORTUNATE, but there was still game to be played it was almost as bad as the Rasheed fuck up, but not quite because we had a lot of time to make the final basket and there was still OT unlike the Pistons.

Anyway I think you should follow your own advice and not try to prop up and defend Tony at the expense of Manu or any other player. It's stupid to blame one player for the series.

Besides I think the complaints about Tony's jumpshots are legit. Pop may have said "I thought he should shoot more! " to a reporter like yourself. But I thnk that's just Pop saving face and not taking the bait to go ,"Oh I thought he should have curbed it a little" and criticize him for making mental mistakes by passing up his teammates shots that's between him and Tony. Anyone with half a brain knows telling a player to shoot more than 25 when they don't have a reliable Jumper like a Kobe or Iverson is just plain stupid. If Kobe shooting more than 25 hurts the team with all his offensive talents >>> than TONY Parker. Wanting Tony to shoot more when it clearly had Mavs taking advantage of that, disrupts the tempo and squanders possessions--and it SHOWED. Pop isn't a Phil Jackson or Pat Riley yet, but I doubt he'd be THAT STUPID.
Agreed!!!

[ducks]

yep manu can do no wrong only tp and pop

nothing new

[ducks]

I do not think kori asked pop about tp's shooting

it was another reporter

[Rescueone]

Rescueone - Pop told Tony to shoot AT LEAST 25 times a game in the Dallas series. When I asked Pop a question about Tony's shooting after one of the early games of the series, he said that Tony needed to shoot even more, not less.

If you have a problem with the gameplan, then blame Pop not Tony.

PDBM - You have repeatedly said that Tony faded in these playoffs. Tony averaged 21 ppg in the postseason, including 20 ppg vs the Mavs. He only had one bad game vs the Mavs with 12 points. To say he faded is just fucking stupid. He was playing with 2 badly bruised thighs and a bad groin pull.

Another people don't get about Tony is that the Spurs game plan is to run the ball through MANU in the 4th quarters. So if Tony doesn't get a lot of points in the 4th, that's because of the system, not because of Tony.

If anyone faded in these playoffs, I guess it was Manu considering that he turned over the ball in several critical situations and when Pop screamed NO FOUL NO FOUL NO FOUL NO FOUL NO FOUL in the huddle in Game 7, Manu fouled. :rolleyes

I know y'all hate Tony but it's really stupid.

Tony didn't cost the Spurs the series. If it wasn't for Tony, the Spurs wouldn't have gotten to 7.

Rebounding and Defense caused the Spurs the series.
HELLO, She's on the inside Duck

[Slinkyman]

i dont think any team in the leagu would want a overrated pg who cant shoot. hell lets trade him to the pistons for delfino+ben wallace+draft pick

Every single team in this league would want Tony Parker, every single one. He's still just 24 and has made improvements every single season and right now he's already an ALL STAR and probably one of the 5 best PGs in the NBA and he still has room for improvement.

[EVAY]

You guys who think that Pop really didn't want Tony to shoot as much as he did in the postseason are really missing what Pop was trying to accomplish, IMO. Dallas was sticking to our three point shooters like glue, and so Duncan could get his shots, but our perimeter players were being stymied, very effectively, by Dallas' perimeter defenders. (my distaste for Cuban doesn't blind me to a well run game plan by the Mavs players). Pop was trying to get Tony to get some of the perimeter defenders to start leaving their guys so that some positions on the perimeter might open up and we could get some offense going. If Tony's offense could draw enough attention, then Dallas' defensive game plan goes down the tubes, and we can win, maybe.

What Pop didn't count on, I think, is how much Avery got his guys to do just what he wanted them to do, and Avery knew that Pop would be stubborn enough to keep his own game plan in place, and that as long as that happened, the Mavs had a good chance to win. Then, of course, the refs....

People should really give it up on Tony....He has been the best or second best scorer, percentage-wise, on the team for the last TWO years, and as far as his relative lower number of assists than other star pgs, our offense is not geared to get him assists. I've talked about that in other threads and in other times, so I won't repeat it here, but folks would do well to understand the game plan behind the stats that they fuss about.

[ploto]

2005-2006 San Antonio Spurs FG%

1. Tony Parker 54.8%
2. Rasho Nesterovic 51.5%

But still everyone's favorite scapegoats.

[toosmallshoes]

I think we should trade Tony Parker for Magic Johnson and Bill Russel. And we should trade Tim Duncan for a spork from Taco Bell. And we should also trade Greg Popovich for an M-16 so we can shoot a piniata in half. Then we should become the president of Mars!!!

[Mavs_man_41]

IMO, i don't know why you would trade tony parker for anyone except MAYBE chris paul. This is only because paul is very young, already good enough to contribute, and has GREAT potential.

[Mavschick]

Parker just gets better and better each year (well, he still needs to work on his FT shooting). For a franchise PG, he has a reasonable contract which has him signed for 5 more years for I think. Therefore, if it gets to the point where he's not happy with the team (which is unlikely since SA will be a contender for years to come as long as Duncan and Manu are on the team and they're also signed for a few more years), you can bet SA will do all it can to make him happy.

[SPARKY]

Don't mind, Spurs fans trade TP every summer.

[FromWayDowntown]

(well, he still needs to work on his FT shooting).

The overtime clangs in Game 4 aside, the 70% he shot this season was a marked improvement over the mid-60's he shot during the 2004-05 season the 2005 playoffs. The 81% he shot during the playoffs was a bigger improvement, still. For what it's worth, he was 76.5% from February on in this past regular season and then 81% in the playoffs. As with his jumpshot, it appears that the shot doctoring is significantly improving his free throw shooting, too.

If he had a trustworthy backup who could spell him for more like 12-15 minutes every night without the Spurs taking on water, Parker's overall effectiveness would improve even more, one would think.

[SPARKY]

It's up to Beno to make this offseason a success.

[NCaliSpurs]

Tony's biggest weakness right now is his slight frame. One of the reasons he had a few down games this postseason was that he was beat up. His slight frame also prevents him from being effective against guarding a lot of the bigger type point guards. Given an extra 10 lbs of muscle, maybe we see a slightly more resilient Tony with a little bit more chops on defense.

[1Parker1]

2005-2006 San Antonio Spurs FG%

1. Tony Parker 54.8%
2. Rasho Nesterovic 51.5%

But still everyone's favorite scapegoats.

:lol That's a little misleading, how many shots was Rasho's FG% based on?

[NCaliSpurs]

You need to change your sig 1Parker1....

:)

[exstatic]

I don't know what fucking series YOU were watching, rescue, but the only Spurs open were Tim and Parker. The rest were blanketed, by design. They were going to allow Tim and Tony whatever they wanted, Tim inside, and Tony on the perimeter. THAT'S why Pop gave him the green light.

[Rescueone]

I don't know what fucking series YOU were watching, rescue, but the only Spurs open were Tim and Parker. The rest were blanketed, by design. They were going to allow Tim and Tony whatever they wanted, Tim inside, and Tony on the perimeter. THAT'S why Pop gave him the green light.
BULLSHIT!! You had your eyes glued to tony ass that's why you and tony missed wide open wing players. I watch the entire game within the game. You should give it a try. It might open you up to see how basketball is supposed to be played. If they were blanketing everyone why did Manu hit that wide open 3 to bring them within 1, or Finley drive form the outside and dunk repeatedly. That's a LAME ASS EXCUSE! By design my ass! So Dallas is now the ultimate defensive team? Everyone was standing awaiting a pass from Parker. Don't you remember the consecutive misses? How did they make you feel? Maybe give someone else a look after the fourth miss in a row right? You trying to tell me he's this supposely "All Star" but he can't see the whole court? But he was given the green light to be a ball hog by POP so was whats done is done and that's it! It's the off season now!

[NCaliSpurs]

BULLSHIT!!...I watch the entire game within the game.

Are you Joey Crawford?

[Rescueone]

Are you Joey Crawford?
NOPE just the average person who played ball before who knows what to look for!

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

You don't trade 24 yo All-Stars on reasonable contracts who still have room to grow (ie. TP) for "decent" anything!

See: Barkley, C for Hornacek, Long and whoever the fuck else it was. There are many other examples, just can't think of one right now.

Seriously, if you even think about trading TP it's for another all-star PG... and really, why do we need to do that?

He was NOT the reason we lost to Dallas. He played extremely well given his injuries (hell, the kid was waaaaaay beat-up - he didn't choke, it was remarkable he could play at all!).

The reasons we lost to Dallas: small-ball; one missed FT in game 7. That's it.

[rascal]

Tony Parker will never be traded as long as Pop is around. I've been saying this since Parker came into the league. Parker is Pop's prized draft pick. Since Pop hasn't done well with free agents or trades he has to hold on to his successful moves and that's the good draft pick steals in Parker and Manu (big reason why both are locked up long term). I don't see either of these guys ever being traded as long as Pop is around.

[SPARKY]

I remember when Spurs fans wanted to trade TP and start Beno.

[FromWayDowntown]

Tony Parker will never be traded as long as Pop is around. I've been saying this since Parker came into the league. Parker is Pop's prized draft pick. Since Pop hasn't done well with free agents or trades he has to hold on to his successful moves and that's the good draft pick steals in Parker and Manu (big reason why both are locked up long term). I don't see either of these guys ever being traded as long as Pop is around.

That Duncan kid that Pop drafted back in 1997 was a pretty good pick too.

I don't think the unwillingness to part with Tony Parker is about Pop's pride; I think it's about realizing what's good for the basketball team and understanding that there are no kid points in the NBA who are as good as Parker is, and those that are close haven't necessarily shown the same upside for growth that Parker has during his career. Plus, Parker is now pretty well battle tested and it's not an easy thing to find points in the NBA that can deal effectively with late playoffs pressure. Pop has one and the kid can play beyond that, so why on Earth would you give him up, regardless of how it was that you acquired him?

[Spurologist]

I remember when Spurs fans wanted to trade TP and start Beno.

I also remember the beno > tp threads

[rascal]

That Duncan kid that Pop drafted back in 1997 was a pretty good pick too.

I don't think the unwillingness to part with Tony Parker is about Pop's pride; I think it's about realizing what's good for the basketball team and understanding that there are no kid points in the NBA who are as good as Parker is, and those that are close haven't necessarily shown the same upside for growth that Parker has during his career. Plus, Parker is now pretty well battle tested and it's not an easy thing to find points in the NBA that can deal effectively with late playoffs pressure. Pop has one and the kid can play beyond that, so why on Earth would you give him up, regardless of how it was that you acquired him?

Anyone could have drafted Duncan. This does not show anything special by management like the draft steals of Parker and Manu.

Parker and manu are the best moves or acquisitions Pop and Co. have made. They will not trade them even if a better option became available. All people in positions of authoriy have pride, confidence and even some arrogance. Modesty and humility are not virtures often seen in people with positions of authority.

Pop will not trade his Boys.

[SPARKY]

Anyone could have drafted Duncan. This does not show anything special by management like the draft steals of Parker and Manu.

Parker and manu are the best moves or acquisitions Pop and Co. have made. They will not trade them even if a better option became available. All people in positions of authoriy have pride, confidence and even some arrogance. Modesty and humility are not virtures often seen in people with positions of authority.

Pop will not trade his Boys.

Anyone could have drafted Duncan. How many could have convinced him to re-sign? Twice?

[rascal]

Many. Duncan did not want to leave. Don't be fooled with the Orlando visit with Grant Hill. That was only bargaining postering. I knew he wasn't going to leave.

That was never going to happen. Duncan still had Robinson and knew he had a great shot at a titile in SA. He was also settled in at SA and liked it.

Wasn't he also recently married at the time? And isn't his wife from SA? Not sure but those would also be strong reasons to stay in SA.

[SPARKY]

Duncan didn't need to make the trip to get the deal he wanted from the Spurs. It was rather real in 2000.

[rascal]

It was real to you. I knew he was not going anywhere.

[leemajors]

Tony's biggest weakness right now is his slight frame. One of the reasons he had a few down games this postseason was that he was beat up. His slight frame also prevents him from being effective against guarding a lot of the bigger type point guards. Given an extra 10 lbs of muscle, maybe we see a slightly more resilient Tony with a little bit more chops on defense.

don't want to bulk him up at the expense of any quickness. tony is young and probably still growing and filling out.

[ploto]

:lol That's a little misleading, how many shots was Rasho's FG% based on?
334

[SA Gunslinger]

Tony's jumper is getting better but it doesn't put the fear of god into a team. Will his jumpshot ever be feared? I think it will.

I just want him to be a Spur when it happens. It won't matter if the Spurs play big or small. They will be unstoppable.

[SPARKY]

Ha you sore loosers our Mavs will give you Darrell Armstrong for Tony Parker and 2 #1 draft picks and 1 million dallors in cash.

Only if Tim Duncan gets on his knees and begs Mark Cuban.


Redneck Hooked on Phonics worked for him.

[SPARKY]

Solid comeback. If you just hit your second can of freon.

[NCaliSpurs]

don't want to bulk him up at the expense of any quickness. tony is young and probably still growing and filling out.

I am not talking about adding a lot of weight to him. And I highly doubt that adding a few more pounds of muscle is going to slow him down. As a matter of fact, having more muscle may allow him to continue to be quick at the end of games.

Whether Tony can actually add more weight is a whole other story. His metabolism probably runs faster than he does!

[SPARKY]

TP takes a lot of punishment attacking the rim as he does. That's the biggest concern I have for him.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

yep manu can do no wrong only tp and pop

nothing new
Wrong

Only Manu and TIM can do no wrong....although this year in 2006, Manu has shown he does have weaknesses while last year we thought otherwise. (Like when Tim's only weakness showed in his Shakey FT/Confidence in 2005)

TP and Pop are among the same level to be criticized. The only reason why Manu gets off the hook is because it's safe to say along with Tim he ensured a third ring against a very real Championship opposition. Not the Leastern Conference automatic ring foe. And has continued to save the team's asses multiple times.

TP is young so he's gonna keep hearing it I guess but then less and less. Some of the criticism has been justified in the past. So far it's all on Pop and Tony did what he was told to do.

Pop is currently considered the best coach or one of the best coaches in the league, but he doesn't always seem like he makes the best decisions (from the convenience 20/20 hindsight--and a non-expert fan perspective) Insistence on his designed game plan or whatever. I admire his class to the utmost, but I remember in 2005 Larry Brown had him read and knew that play to Horry wasn't gonna happen. His remark was something like, "I didn't know they'd be gutsy enough to go for the win, instead of the tie" which he thought he got outplayed by Pop like a chessmatch. Me and my friend thought it was a great play to go for the three. Later on we found out Manu cut the designed play which was for a two because of the trap and quick thinking got him to notice Horry and all his past. So yeah Pop hasn't convinced some of us that he's on a Phil Jackson / Pat Riley legend status yet. The confidence in Pop isn't equal to that kind of confidence in Timmy. He has yet to come over that hump of defending the title and I think coaching has lot to do with that when you got your key players in tact and the other teams are designed to take them down. (Though this year seems a lot more forgiving than the other "repeat" years because that Mavs series just seemed so damned even)

In the end it doesn't matter if he does or not cuz he's still a unique classy coach.

[JET_31]

Why would the spurs want to trade parker?

[Kori Ellis]

Why would the spurs want to trade parker?

They wouldn't.

[NCaliSpurs]

TP takes a lot of punishment attacking the rim as he does. That's the biggest concern I have for him.

Exactly my point.

You can probably attribute some of Tony's "fading" in years past to his slight body not handling the physical nature of playoffs that well.

Perhaps if he bulked up a tad bit, he could take the bruising a little better.

He should be nearing his muscular peak in the next year or so anyway.

[JET_31]

The only other young point guard in the league with potential like parker is chris paul. But this would be a stupid trade for both sides making this a pointless thread.

[LakerHater]

Shit I'd take Chris Paul over Tony Parker anyday

[orhe]

i say we trade duncan and ginobili for some old guy

[JET_31]

i say we trade duncan and ginobili for some old guy

Hey tell popovich to trade them for Keith Van Horn........lmao

[dbreiden83080]

Tony is not even 25 and an all star trading him now would be insane, he will be a great player he has gotten better every year and next year will be no different, Spurs did not lose to Dallas because of Tony, Manu just killed them in that series down the stretch of games 3 and 7.

[LakerHater]

Tony is a great REAGULAR season player but come playoffs...

[Kori Ellis]

Tony is a great REAGULAR season player but come playoffs...

He averaged 21 points in the playoffs.

[SPARKY]

Manu Ginobili can foul a guy with 20 seconds left in a Game 7 when you're up 3 but it's all TP's fault. When will the madness end?

[LakerHater]

against Dallas he was 20.1 and only went to the line 6 times when he was 3rd in the league in points in the paint

[Sii]

against Dallas he was 20.1 and only went to the line 6 times when he was 3rd in the league in points in the paint

and he had some big games against Dallas too. Parker didnt have a poor playoffs and trading a young all-star is just dumb

[1Parker1]

Manu Ginobili can foul a guy with 20 seconds left in a Game 7 when you're up 3 but it's all TP's fault. When will the madness end?


:lmao Exactly. I love Manu and in no way do I think that he or that foul were the reason we lost to the Mavs. However, if the situation was reversed and Parker had been the one that committed the foul...could you imagine the threads that would have been started then?

[waly.mg]

win 2 championships?

sign me up

Malik Rose too

I Only trade Tony for a PG, like Nash or Billups, Chris Paul and probably no one more, not Sppedy or JK, Marbury, Franchise or Baron Davis

[MannyIsGod]

It amazes me how even when you're told exactly what the coach told the player, some people in here still try to put spin on it and their own analysis.

Motherfuckers, Pop told Tony to shoot more and he did. Is that really that hard to understand???

[Rescueone]

It amazes me how even when you're told exactly what the coach told the player, some people in here still try to put spin on it and their own analysis.

Motherfuckers, Pop told Tony to shoot more and he did. Is that really that hard to understand???

Manny, O.K. I know that he was given the green light to shoot more. But when you come down the court on four consecutive possessions and throw up bullshit and miss all four when others are wide open, cmon dude! something should go off in his head that " Maybe it's not my day" and I should look elsewhere. He is known for having horrible shooting days. dude should know when enough is enough. Thanks for calling me a "motherfucker", I like that! as long as they're not over 40!

[ducks]

what would happen if tp made all 4 of those shots

would you still be busting his chops ?

[Rescueone]

what would happen if tp made all 4 of those shots

would you still be busting his chops ?

yes because he's not getting everyone else involved like a true point guard is supposed to do. The Spurs are more of a dangerous team when everyone scores.

[ducks]

no kidding
but you get benched if you do not obey orders from pop

that is why going to duncan all the time in 4 is silly and

[Rescueone]

no kidding
but you get benched if you do not obey orders from pop

that is why going to duncan all the time in 4 is silly and

Maybe, maybe not. I'd take duncan shooting 5 footers over paker shooting from 15-18 ft any day.

[Kori Ellis]

But when you come down the court on four consecutive possessions and throw up bullshit and miss all four when others are wide open, cmon dude! something should go off in his head that

When did that happen?

I know he gets tunnel vision sometimes. But I don't remember him missing shots on four straight possessions in these playoffs.

[Rescueone]

OH yeah, It happened in Game 7

[ducks]

quarter?

[Rescueone]

I believe that would be the third quarter!

[ducks]

full play by play of game 7 (http://www.nba.com/games/20060522/DALSAS/playbyplay.html)

4 straight times prove it
I do not see it

[MrChug]

There's just too many possibilties, but don't think it hasn't crossed my mind! I'd love something that would get a Hinrich (prototypical setup PG and dead-eye shooter) and a big over here, unload Nazr with a sign-and-trade, and can anyone pronounce NOCIONI!! :elephant Tyson Chandler is something to behold, but he's as inconsistent as Rasho ever was. I don't know...just thinkin

[ducks]

I am waiting ........

[Slinkyman]

There's just too many possibilties, but don't think it hasn't crossed my mind! I'd love something that would get a Hinrich (prototypical setup PG and dead-eye shooter) and a big over here, unload Nazr with a sign-and-trade, and can anyone pronounce NOCIONI!! :elephant Tyson Chandler is something to behold, but he's as inconsistent as Rasho ever was. I don't know...just thinkin

Maybe you should consider becoming a bulls fan since you love their players so much :lol

[Kori Ellis]

full play by play of game 7 (http://www.nba.com/games/20060522/DALSAS/playbyplay.html)

4 straight times prove it
I do not see it

You don't see it because it's not there. He didn't even miss a shot or have a turnover on two straight possessions that I see. And this guys says he did it missed on 4 straight possessions???

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Heinrich pressures the ball coming up court similar to (but not quite as good as) Tony Parker. He has good ball handling skills, and as mentioned is a dead-eye shooter.

He got exposed in the Heat series b/c they stuck him on Wade in crunch time. That wouldn't happen in SA. I think his defense would be comparable to TP's and on offense his outside shooting and general offensive style of play really would blend with Duncan's inside game and open up the lanes for Manu to drive more.



When you look at Heinrich and Parker, Parker's a better player. But...for this team, Heinrich might be a better fit. Bulls would probably pull the trigger on that deal too.

[Rescueone]

You don't see it because it's not there. He didn't even miss a shot or have a turnover on two straight possessions that I see. And this guys says he did it missed on 4 straight possessions???


Well excuse me, let's try game 6. Different story.

[ducks]

bulls would have to give up more then
Kirk Hinrich because of Money. tp is not on his rookie contract

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Manu Ginobili can foul a guy with 20 seconds left in a Game 7 when you're up 3 but it's all TP's fault. When will the madness end?

That should tell you something.

Manu's earned the right to fuck up. TP's made it his hobby to choke in clutch playoff games.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

bulls would have to give up more then
Kirk Hinrich because of Money. tp is not on his rookie contract

I would gladly take a Sweetney type player off there hands. :princess


I doubt they'd do that, but I'm sure they have players on there roster they can throw in to make the numbers work. The more I think about this the more I like it. Heinrich is young, too. His game would go well with the Spurs. He's not injury prone like Speedy either (at least I don't think he is).

[ChumpDumper]

That should tell you something.That haters hate, and not much else.

[ducks]

full play by play game 6 (http://www.nba.com/games/20060519/SASDAL/playbyplay.html)

you are complaining about game 6
spurs won that game

still do not see it
now are you going to say excuse me game 5 :rolleyes

[Please_dont_ban_me]

That haters hate, and not much else.

I'm not a hater, though.

I love Tony Parker. I love the Spurs. I'm not one of the Manu > Tony guys. I want to see TP succeed...I want to see him do well in crucial games. He just has let us down more often than he has come through.

[Kori Ellis]

Well excuse me, let's try game 6. Different story.

Didn't miss 4 shots in a row in game six either. He had 31 points that game though.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm not a hater, though.

I love Tony Parker. I love the Spurs. I'm not one of the Manu > Tony guys. I want to see TP succeed...I want to see him do well in crucial games. He just has let us down more often than he has come through.

You are talking about the past. Tony didn't choke in this year's playoffs. Even though you've repeated that he did, over and over. It doesn't make it true.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Lol @ Kori/Timvp teaming up on this guy.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

You are talking about the past. Tony didn't choke in this year's playoffs. Even though you've repeated that he did, over and over. It doesn't make it true.

He didn't choke...but he didn't exactly come through either.

He settled for jumpshots way too often, what happened to the attacking Tony Parker of the regular season? Why did Pop have to stick Nick Van Exel in for so many minutes, crunch minutes? Somebody who barely played all season.

[Kori Ellis]

He didn't choke...but he didn't exactly come through either.

He settled for jumpshots way too often, what happened to the attacking Tony Parker of the regular season? Why did Pop have to stick Nick Van Exel in for so many minutes, crunch minutes? Somebody who barely played all season.

He averaged 20 ppg in the Mavs series. 22 vs the Kings.

Pop told him to shoot jumpshots. He wanted him take 25 shots a game. He wanted him to shoot a lot of jumpshots because the defense was sagging.

Van Exel barely played. WTF are you talking about?

It's like people missed the playoffs or something.

[ducks]

He didn't choke...but he didn't exactly come through either.

He settled for jumpshots way too often, what happened to the attacking Tony Parker of the regular season? Why did Pop have to stick Nick Van Exel in for so many minutes, crunch minutes? Somebody who barely played all season.

HE ATTACKED WHEN HIS LEGS WOULD LET HIM HE WAS BANGED UP

[Please_dont_ban_me]

HE ATTACKED WHEN HIS LEGS WOULD LET HIM HE WAS BANGED UP

That's a fair argument.

[ducks]

Maybe, maybe not. I'd take duncan shooting 5 footers over paker shooting from 15-18 ft any day.
that is what cost the spurs

when the spurs were in ot pop went to duncan and duncan was GASSED instead of going to tp or manu

[ducks]

That should tell you something.

Manu's earned the right to fuck up. TP's made it his hobby to choke in clutch playoff games.
manu fucked up more late in games then tp did this year

also manu's road games against pistons SUCKED ASS last year in finals

[Please_dont_ban_me]

He averaged 20 ppg in the Mavs series. 22 vs the Kings.

Pop told him to shoot jumpshots. He wanted him take 25 shots a game. He wanted him to shoot a lot of jumpshots because the defense was sagging.

Van Exel barely played. WTF are you talking about?

It's like people missed the playoffs or something.

I don't really have the stats in front of me, I'm just going off what I watched in the games.

It seemed like at times Pop was losing faith in TP and would stick Nick Van Exel in. Then he'd be forced to pull Nick back out cuz he wasn't doing shit either. I'm sure if you look at Van Exel's minutes through the season, and then look at them in this series there will be a jump.



I love Tony Parker, but he didn't do as much as he could've/should've in these playoffs. I'm not the only one who thinks so...I guess we all didn't watch the games and you did?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

manu fucked up more late in games then tp did this year

also manu's road games against pistons SUCKED ASS last year in finals

I don't remember Manu "sucking ass".

If his offense isn't there he normally finds other ways to contribute. But it seems like if TP's drive isn't there, and his shot isn't falling that day...he/we are fucked.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Kori,

If we traded TP for Kirk tommorrow...what would your reaction be?

[Kori Ellis]

People don't get it. Tony had a pulled groin and 2 huge thigh bruises. He attacked all he could but had no lift in a couple games. He still hung in and scored 20 ppg. Yes, he's young and sometimes doesn't have good vision. Yes, he makes mistakes sometimes.

But it makes me laugh (and not in a good way) that he gets bashed so heavily. He carried the team for the whole year while Manu/Tim were banged up. In the Kings series, he got a thigh bruise, then in Game 1 vs Mavs he got another, plus the groin pull by Game 3. He still managed to score 20ppg. NVE only play 10 mpg in the Mavs series, he wasn't bailing anyone out.

Tony used to be inconsistent. This season, he was the most consistent Spur on the roster. Yes, he has a bad game here and there. But you guys much not watch any other basketball. If you did, you'd see Hinrich's 3-for-15 games. Marbury, Kidd, Paul, anyone -- they all have games when they 0-for, have a lot of turnovers, or whatever. They are basketball players, not robots.

[ducks]

I don't really have the stats in front of me, I'm just going off what I watched in the games.

It seemed like at times Pop was losing faith in TP and would stick Nick Van Exel in. Then he'd be forced to pull Nick back out cuz he wasn't doing shit either. I'm sure if you look at Van Exel's minutes through the season, and then look at them in this series there will be a jump.



I love Tony Parker, but he didn't do as much as he could've/should've in these playoffs. I'm not the only one who thinks so...I guess we all didn't watch the games and you did?


I think the big three could have done more
against mavs manu and tp were hurt and it hurt their performances
against mavs

[Kori Ellis]

Didn't miss 4 shots in a row in game six either. He had 31 points that game though.


By the way, this is me talking about the Kings Game Six. If you meant Mavs Game Six .. then yeah, that was Tony's worst game of the playoffs.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm sure if you look at Van Exel's minutes through the season, and then look at them in this series there will be a jump.



Van Exel averaged over 15 mpg in the regular season and 11 in the playoffs.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

People don't get it. Tony had a pulled groin and 2 huge thigh bruises. He attacked all he could but had no lift in a couple games. He still hung in and scored 20 ppg. Yes, he's young and sometimes doesn't have good vision. Yes, he makes mistakes sometimes.

But it makes me laugh (and not in a good way) that he gets bashed so heavily. He carried the team for the whole year while Manu/Tim were banged up. In the Kings series, he got a thigh bruise, then in Game 1 vs Mavs he got another, plus the groin pull by Game 3. He still managed to score 20ppg. NVE only play 10 mpg in the Mavs series, he wasn't bailing anyone out.

Tony used to be inconsistent. This season, he was the most consistent Spur on the roster. Yes, he has a bad game here and there. But you guys much not watch any other basketball. If you did, you'd see Hinrich's 3-for-15 games. Marbury, Kidd, Paul, anyone -- they all have games when they )-for, have a lot of turnovers, or whatever. They are basketball players, not robots.

Then you're argument should be "he was injured". Not 'he played fine'.

This season he was great. I'm not even complaining about the season. I'm complaining about the playoffs...more specifically this series. As for TP's turnovers, I don't think his ratio is even that high...he's not that type of a point guard. I didn't even bring that up?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I think the big three could have done more
against mavs manu and tp were hurt and it hurt their performances
against mavs

Tim was hurt too...

I can't wait to see how he comes back next year once he has had a chance to rest that foot.

[Kori Ellis]

Kori,

If we traded TP for Kirk tommorrow...what would your reaction be?

I'd be pissed.

On the season, Kirk averaged 16ppg, 6apg and shot only 41.8%.

Tony averaged 19ppg, 6apg and shot 54.8%.

Tony is far more efficient.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Van Exel averaged over 15 mpg in the regular season and 11 in the playoffs.

Just double-checked, those numbers are right.

Again I'm just going off what I was watching in the games...it seemed like Nick was in more than he should've been...and he was only taken out when he failed to produce and Pop was sort of forced to put TP back in before he wanted to.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I'd be pissed.

On the season, Kirk averaged 16ppg, 6apg and shot only 41.8%.

Tony averaged 19ppg, 6apg and shot 54.8%.

Tony is far more efficient.

With the percentage, keep in mind they have no inside game.

Also keep in mind TP's high percentage came from getting to the hoop, which was taken away from him in the playoffs.




Other then that, 3 points diff is ppg isn't a big deal, apg is the same. The most important thing to me is playing style. I think his would fit with the Spurs a little better. The only problem would be when Manu isn't being aggressive and getting to the rim...we don't have a 2nd who can do it like TP used to.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Look at the Derek Fishers and the James Posey's...

When you put them with an inside game and a few open looks they start looking like a fat bitch after a few beers, much better.

[Kori Ellis]

Also keep in mind TP's high percentage came from getting to the hoop, which was taken away from him in the playoffs.

It wasn't taken away. He couldn't lift as much PLUS and more importantly, Pop told him to shoot jumpshots.

You don't know anything about basketball if you'll take a guy who shoots 41% over a guy who shoot 54%. That difference is huge. Hinrich has one of the worst shooting percentage of any starting guard in the league.

You probably have only watched him in a handful of games. I watch him all the time. He has tons and tons of bad shooting games that would make you want to kill him if he were on the Spurs.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

It wasn't taken away. He couldn't lift as much PLUS and more importantly, Pop told him to shoot jumpshots.

You don't know anything about basketball if you'll take a guy who shoots 41% over a guy who shoot 54%. That difference is huge. Hinrich has one of the worst shooting percentage of any starting guard in the league.

You probably have only watched him in a handful of games. I watch him all the time. He has tons and tons of bad shooting games that would make you want to kill him if he were on the Spurs.

I don't know anything about basketball.

I realize I don't have an AP pass, but bear with me Kori. How can you not acknowledge the teams they're playing on and the effect that has on the field goal percentage? You're telling me if Kirk's with the Spurs and starts getting open jumpers more often than in Chicago (where they hvae no interior offense) that his shooting percentage won't go up?

What good is TP's 56% field goal perecentage when he starts settling for jump shots? If he's injured, that's one thing...but the same thing has happened in the past when he wasn't injured.

Like Tim Duncan...he's laying up balls now he would've dunked before. You can say he's injured, and this isn't the real him. But with TP what do you have to go off? Past playoff performances? He's pulled the same shit. His numbers are never horrible, but he leaves you yearning for more. That's all I'm saying.

Kirk is a certain niche type of player that can iplay in a good system on a good team. The Bulls are a few pieces away from that, but I bet if you stick him in here he starts looking very good.

[ducks]

With the percentage, keep in mind they have no inside game.

Also keep in mind TP's high percentage came from getting to the hoop, which was taken away from him in the playoffs.

can you hold that against him?

hthe last few months is was on fire from the free thorw line and jumpers outside of 9 feet
do nto have that info here

[Kori Ellis]

It wasn't taken away in the playoffs. Tony scored a lot of layups in the playoffs.




How can you not acknowledge the teams they're playing on and the effect that has on the field goal percentage? You're telling me if Kirk's with the Spurs and starts getting open jumpers more often than in Chicago (where they hvae no interior offense) that his shooting percentage won't go up? ....

PDBM - You say Tony can't hit jumpers, but he hit 46% of his jumpers outside 16 feet after the All-Star break. Don't keep looking at past years and complaining about Tony. He's a much different player and constantly getting better. Tony still shot over 50% against the Kings in the playoffs .. then he got hurt. Kirk Hinrich would never shoot 54% no matter what.

[ducks]

spurs brought in steve smith,ron mercer, barry and da their shooting % with duncan did nto go up
alot thought with barry it would but when he was almost traded he started playing ok

so do not assume that palyign with duncan will make him shot better
working with chip yes....

[ChumpDumper]

Kirk is a certain niche type of player that can iplay in a good system on a good team. The Bulls are a few pieces away from that, but I bet if you stick him in here he starts looking very good.Stick "Brent Barry" and "Sonics" in there and you get us two summers ago.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't know anything about basketball.



You don't know much.

So far in this thread you've said a lot of things that were just flat out wrong.

You said for me to go look at NVE's minutes in the playoffs compared to regular season because they went WAY WAY UP because Tony choked. Meanwhile, NVE played only 10 minutes a game against the Mavs and played 16 mpg in the regular season.

It's like you spout off without watching anything.

Now you are telling me that Hinrich's numbers are about equal to Tony's numbers even though Tony's shooting percentage is 13% higher. THIRTEEN PERCENT .. that's frickin huge. Maybe if you brought him here Hinrich could shoot 45% and be an average NBA guard. Maybe not.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

can you hold that against him?

hthe last few months is was on fire from the free thorw line and jumpers outside of 9 feet
do nto have that info here

I'm just comparing the two. Not holding anything against anyone.

[kris]

Parker is like 8000x better than Kirk Hinrich. How is this even a question?

Parker is so efficient it's not even funny. He was injured and he played through it pretty damn well. He has improved every year and the league and is likely to end up one of the most unique, awesome forces in the NBA in a couple of years. Why would we trade him?

Parker's jumpshot is good when the rest of the Spurs aren't sitting around waiting for him to create something for them. When the Spurs are stagnant, then it becomes a problem, because he really doesn't want to just chunk up jumpshots.

If anything, Parker was probably the MVP of the season for SA.

Hinrich has the better shot overall, but Tony does so much more and has so much more ability, I don't really even think they are in the same category. Anyway you slice it, I'll take a worse shooter that shoots 54% to a better jump shooter that hits at 41. :violin

[Please_dont_ban_me]

It wasn't taken away in the playoffs. Tony scored a lot of layups in the playoffs.





PDBM - You say Tony can't hit jumpers, but he hit 46% of his jumpers outside 16 feet after the All-Star break. Don't keep looking at past years and complaining about Tony. He's a much different player and constantly getting better. Tony still shot over 50% against the Kings in the playoffs .. then he got hurt. Kirk Hinrich would never shoot 54% no matter what.

I'm not talking about the regular season.

His jumpshot improved greatly this season. But it seemed like in the playoffs he sort of reverted to his old shot. With pure shooters you say 'keep shooting' but with a guy like Tony...you can't do that. He's an improved shooter. Not a pure shooter by any stretch of the imagination.

I don't think Heinrich would get to 54%. That said, I do think he could get up to around 47-50% which is better than TP shooting 56% all season then getting into the playoffs and shooting 46%.



(damn you for making me go and look up statistics)

[Please_dont_ban_me]

spurs brought in steve smith,ron mercer, barry and da their shooting % with duncan did nto go up
alot thought with barry it would but when he was almost traded he started playing ok

so do not assume that palyign with duncan will make him shot better
working with chip yes....

Steve Smith?

[Kori Ellis]

Well Hinrich shot 41% in the playoffs. So I doubt he can even reach Parker's 50% that he shot in the Kings series.

I'm not going to continue this argument, but you repeating over and over and over in different threads about how Tony choked in the playoffs just makes you look stupid.

None of the Spurs choked in the playoffs. They just got beat because we couldn't match up with the Mavs because the centers suck.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Stick "Brent Barry" and "Sonics" in there and you get us two summers ago.

I'm not sure if it's the same.

Barry was a really good player on an average team.

Heinrich is an average player on an average team. The difference is Barry needs the ball in his hands (in my opinion) more than Heinrich (other than bringing it up court) and Barry is more of a slasher.


It's just my opinion.

I don't see why this has to turn into "I disagree with you, therefor you know nothing about basketball". :rolleyes

[ducks]

steve smith was a spur yes

[Please_dont_ban_me]

You don't know much.

So far in this thread you've said a lot of things that were just flat out wrong.

You said for me to go look at NVE's minutes in the playoffs compared to regular season because they went WAY WAY UP because Tony choked. Meanwhile, NVE played only 10 minutes a game against the Mavs and played 16 mpg in the regular season.

It's like you spout off without watching anything.

Now you are telling me that Hinrich's numbers are about equal to Tony's numbers even though Tony's shooting percentage is 13% higher. THIRTEEN PERCENT .. that's frickin huge. Maybe if you brought him here Hinrich could shoot 45% and be an average NBA guard. Maybe not.

I wasn't "wrong".

I told you I didn't have the stats in front of me.




That said, let's discuss shooting percentages. Since you're hell bent on stats. Heincrich shot 42% in the regular season, and 42% in the playoffs.

Parker shot 55% in the season and then 46% in the playoffs. Yes I realize 46% > 42% but a the same time, you have to look at who is more consistent and what type of system they're playing in. In an offense with Duncan and Manu to divert the defenses attention you're shooting percentage should not drop 10 points.

Look at Heinrich...in an offense with a bunch of average players he still managed to put out as much (percentage wise, since that's what you're focused on) in the playoffs as he did in the regular season. You're telling me if he's shooting 42% with the Bulls he can't shoot say...45-48% with the Spurs filling a role?



I'm sorry to dissapoint you, but I do know a little about basketball.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

steve smith was a spur yes

Sorry I thought you meant Charles Smith.

But ya, Steve Smith was on old fart man.

[kris]

I'm not sure if it's the same.

Barry was a really good player on an average team.

Heinrich is an average player on an average team. The difference is Barry needs the ball in his hands (in my opinion) more than Heinrich (other than bringing it up court) and Barry is more of a slasher.


It's just my opinion.

I don't see why this has to turn into "I disagree with you, therefor you know nothing about basketball". :rolleyes

How did Tony choke? I must have missed that between him limping up the floor and rehabbing every day between the games just to play for his team.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

How did Tony choke? I must have missed that between him limping up the floor and rehabbing every day between the games just to play for his team.

Choke is a bad choice of words.

He left much to be desired, I guess is better.

[Kori Ellis]

I wasn't "wrong".

I told you I didn't have the stats in front of me.




That said, let's discuss shooting percentages. Since you're hell bent on stats. Heincrich shot 42% in the regular season, and 42% in the playoffs.

Parker shot 55% in the season and then 46% in the playoffs. Yes I realize 46% > 42% but a the same time, you have to look at who is more consistent and what type of system they're playing in. In an offense with Duncan and Manu to divert the defenses attention you're shooting percentage should not drop 10 points.

Look at Heinrich...in an offense with a bunch of average players he still managed to put out as much (percentage wise, since that's what you're focused on) in the playoffs as he did in the regular season. You're telling me if he's shooting 42% with the Bulls he can't shoot say...45-48% with the Spurs filling a role?



I'm sorry to dissapoint you, but I do know a little about basketball.

Umm like I've repeated 100 times. I am discounting Tony's percentages vs the Mavs. He could barely walk and almost didn't play in three of the games.

Compare Tony's regular season stats to the Kings series. What is 54% and 51%?? I'll take that over Hinrich's suckass consistent 41%.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Well Hinrich shot 41% in the playoffs. So I doubt he can even reach Parker's 50% that he shot in the Kings series.

I'm not going to continue this argument, but you repeating over and over and over in different threads about how Tony choked in the playoffs just makes you look stupid.

None of the Spurs choked in the playoffs. They just got beat because we couldn't match up with the Mavs because the centers suck.

Heinrich shot 42% and Parker shot 46%.

That is not an earth-shattering difference.

[Kori Ellis]

Heinrich shot 42% and Parker shot 46%.

That is not an earth-shattering difference.

Are you not reading??!

YOU SHOULD NOT COUNT THE MAVS SERIES. HE COULD BARELY WALK. THE NIGHT BEFORE GAME 2, THEY DECIDED THEY WEREN'T EVEN GOING TO PLAY HIM.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Umm like I've repeated 100 times. I am discounting Tony's percentages vs the Mavs. He could barely walk and almost didn't play in three of the games.

Compare Tony's regular season stats to the Kings series. What is 54% and 51%?? I'll take that over Hinrich's suckass consistent 41%.

Suckass 42% on the f'ing Bulls.

Compare that to Tony Parkers 10 percentage point let down from the regular season to the playoffs. So now we're discussing his stats in the Kings series only? :D C'mon Kori, you can't just use the stats that are convenient for your argument.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Are you not reading??!

YOU SHOULD NOT COUNT THE MAVS SERIES. HE COULD BARELY WALK. THE NIGHT BEFORE GAME 2, THEY DECIDED THEY WEREN'T EVEN GOING TO PLAY HIM.


So say he was playing injured.

Stop trying to spit out his stats like they're orgasmic.

[Kori Ellis]

Suckass 42% on the f'ing Bulls.

Compare that to Tony Parkers 10 percentage point let down from the regular season to the playoffs. So now we're discussing his stats in the Kings series only? :D C'mon Kori, you can't just use the stats that are convenient for your argument.

Okay, add in his sucky Mavs series percentage. Use 46% if you want. That's better than Hinrich would shoot on the Spurs.

Name players that their percentages skyrocketed by more than 5 percent when they got to the Spurs.

[Kori Ellis]

So say he was playing injured.

Stop trying to spit out his stats like they're orgasmic.

I've said it 100 times.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Parker is like 8000x better than Kirk Hinrich. How is this even a question?

Parker is so efficient it's not even funny. He was injured and he played through it pretty damn well. He has improved every year and the league and is likely to end up one of the most unique, awesome forces in the NBA in a couple of years. Why would we trade him?

Parker's jumpshot is good when the rest of the Spurs aren't sitting around waiting for him to create something for them. When the Spurs are stagnant, then it becomes a problem, because he really doesn't want to just chunk up jumpshots.

If anything, Parker was probably the MVP of the season for SA.

Hinrich has the better shot overall, but Tony does so much more and has so much more ability, I don't really even think they are in the same category. Anyway you slice it, I'll take a worse shooter that shoots 54% to a better jump shooter that hits at 41. :violin


You're right, he is efficient and he has improved every year.

You're right, he probably was the MVP of the regular season.

The only major difference in my opinion is TP attacks the rim, while Henrichs game is predicated around the perimeter..although he can get to the rim at tims.

[Kori Ellis]

The only major difference in my opinion is TP attacks the rim, while Henrichs game is predicated around the perimeter..although he can get to the rim at tims.

So why do you not prefer a point guard who can attack the rim and open up the floor for his shooters?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I've said it 100 times.

Not to me...

The one or two times you did I replies with a "that's fine, just say he's playing injured" type response. But you kept throwing his stats out there like they were earth-shattering compared to Kirk's.

[Kori Ellis]

But you kept throwing his stats out there like they were earth-shattering compared to Kirk's.

They are.

He shoots 13% better from the field than Kirk.

I don't know if you realize how low Kirk's percentage is. He's not even close to average.

[kris]

The whole this guy would shoot awesome if he came to the Spurs argument doesn't work in real life. Sharpshooters Steve Smith and Steve Kerr both sucked it up when they got here. Kerr did better the second time, but it still wasn't like the conventional thinking of "he shot 45% on the Bulls without Tim, he'd shoot 60 on the Spurs"

[Please_dont_ban_me]

So why do you not prefer a point guard who can attack the rim and open up the floor for his shooters?


I would LOVE for him to do what he does in the regular season in the playoffs.

But doing it against Mike Bibby doesn't really count. Plus, since we both agree he was injured...it's hard to judge his performance against the Mavs and how much he has improved is playoff play.

[kris]

Actually, 46 and 42 are huge in seperation in the NBA. 4 percentage points is a lot.

It's like in baseball how batting .330 is way better than batting .300 even though it only means you get a hit three more percent of the time.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

They are.

He shoots 13% better from the field than Kirk.

I don't know if you realize how low Kirk's percentage is. He's not even close to average.

Look at the team he's playing on.

Who else do they have...Ben Gordaon? Duhon? Tyson Chandler? All I'm saying is his numbers are decent there, and I think they would go up in SA. Not 13% points, but what are those 13% points worth if they go down 10% points in the playoffs. And yes, for the 100th time...I know he was injured.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Actually, 46 and 42 are huge in seperation in the NBA. 4 percentage points is a lot.

It's like in baseball how batting .330 is way better than batting .300 even though it only means you get a hit three more percent of the time.

It's not earth-shattering.

It's a noticeable difference, obviously...but when you consider the two diff teams they're playing on and there playoff performances...I don't think 4% is that much. Sorry.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

The whole this guy would shoot awesome if he came to the Spurs argument doesn't work in real life. Sharpshooters Steve Smith and Steve Kerr both sucked it up when they got here. Kerr did better the second time, but it still wasn't like the conventional thinking of "he shot 45% on the Bulls without Tim, he'd shoot 60 on the Spurs"

Then you can look at a Stephen Jaxson.

Or a Manu even.

Let's say a...*drumroll* Bruce Bowen.




Examples can be made to prove either point. But I think conventional wisdom tells you that if you have a great post player, he will make the players around him better. Especially if it's not a ball-hawking center like Timmy.

[ducks]

why did barry suck 1 and half years with duncan?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

why did barry suck 1 and half years with duncan?

Confidence issues? I don't really know...I'm not inside the Spurs organization.

[Kori Ellis]

Then you can look at a Stephen Jaxson.



In the 3 seasons since SJax left the Spurs, he's shot a higher percentage from 3 than he did when he was here in San Antonio.

I agree that the Spurs make some players play better because it's a good system. But I don't think Hinrich as a Spur would be close to being as efficient as Parker.

[Kori Ellis]

That's it for me in this thread.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

In the 3 seasons since SJax left the Spurs, he's shot a higher percentage from 3 than he did when he was here in San Antonio.

I agree that the Spurs make some players play better because it's a good system. But I don't think Hinrich as a Spur would be close to being as efficient as Parker.

Indiana has Jermain O'neal there...he's a good post-up player as well.

[strangeweather]

Indiana has Jermain O'neal there...he's a good post-up player as well.
He also shot a higher 3-pt % in Atlanta.

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

Choke is a bad choice of words.

He left much to be desired, I guess is better.
I know where you're coming from, by watching the games I didn't think he helped get us over the hump like he could--and some of these guys are being too nice to ignore a somewhat neutral performance. He's not at fault for anything but it always seems like the Opponent, think about Detroit, and the Dallas series, they're good defensive teams, so they don't even care or worry about Parker. They just see him as expendable points and aren't really threatened by his game.

He needs to hurry up and catch up with Tim and Manu, we need him to be on their level already. Stats don't mean anything to me when they don't achieve the win. I don't care about Tony's individual efficiency when it's still not satisfactory when you're watching the games. 50 Percent is deceptive, He could make 9 layups spread across and miss one and miss 9 jumpshots and make one. On paper at the end of the game it looks decent. During the game, 6 of those jumpshots could've led to fastbreak points....so Screw that stat argument.

One less Forced, from an injured Parker, could have made all the difference in those 1,2 point margin victories. I hope Parker has better decision making next year and instead of shooting 24 shots just cuz STUPID POP , yes that's right, POP IS STUPID for expecting TONY TO BE A PURE SHOOTER ALREADY, he should take 20 shots for Pop's 25, and look to see if anyone has a better /higher percentage shot more often.
It's not even so much asking Tony to disobey Pop, but not BE A ROBOT for him. He needs to make better playoff decisions and try to win the games by pacing his job "to take the shots" along with what's beneficial for the team. He kept squandering possessions with his one on one tunnelvision. Shooting 24 shots is telling that Parker isn't thinking for the best team option or in the moment during those games. He's just going by the book/gameplan to a T for 35 straight minutes.

[SPARKY]

That should tell you something.

Manu's earned the right to fuck up. TP's made it his hobby to choke in clutch playoff games.

What is it with Spurs fans and urban legends? TP as non-playoff performer has to be at the top.

[SPARKY]

Without Tony Parker last season maybe the Spurs are the 4th seed in the playoffs. Manu Ginobili disappeared at times in the playoffs, moreso than TP Injured? Yeah, I guess TP wasn't this postseason.

[NCaliSpurs]

Spurs needed him in that OT game against the nugz. That series changes dramatically without him.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

So TP averages 21 pts a game in the playoffs and only turns in one bad performance out of 7 in the second round with 2 bruised thighs and a groin-pull... AND YOU WANT TO TRADE HIM!?!?!? :rolleyes

Seriously, Tony should be given a medal. This year proved exactly what we had all hoped, that Tony has matured into a truly consistent star player. He's already got 2 rings and I bet he'll get another 1 or 2 by the end of the decade, so let's give him a break.

Oh, and watch his jumpshot continue to improve next year, and maybe a consistent 3-ball emerge. With a 35% or over 3-ball, and the kid's speed, he instantly goes very close to being the best PG in the league.

Lay off the kid already!

[Kibic]

Problem is not in TP. If Beno had NVE minutes...

[Dartherus]

So TP averages 21 pts a game in the playoffs and only turns in one bad performance out of 7 in the second round with 2 bruised thighs and a groin-pull... AND YOU WANT TO TRADE HIM!?!?!? :rolleyes!
Why do fans stick to scoring?? did anyone criticize Tony's scoring?
Don't you see Parker's problem is about severe lack of court vision (how many times he ignored wide open teammates in these playoff? do you think Pop asked him that?) and about being too one-dimensional? don't you see that in a minor team, that wouldn't be a problem, but in a Title Contender like Spurs, such predictability in the PG tend to hurt Spurs game a lot? no matter how much he scores?

Is scorign a lot the best for a team? when did the Lakers played better, with the Ballhog Kobe version, or with the more teamplayer one? same with MJ? when did the Bulls started to win rings? wasn't it when MJ stopped the 'me me' attitude?

[George Gervin's Afro]

I am not a big fan of parker but unless we would receive an impact player in return we cannot trade TP. If we could trade his brain for say..... John Stockton's I would do it.

[George Gervin's Afro]

So TP averages 21 pts a game in the playoffs and only turns in one bad performance out of 7 in the second round with 2 bruised thighs and a groin-pull... AND YOU WANT TO TRADE HIM!?!?!? :rolleyes

Seriously, Tony should be given a medal. This year proved exactly what we had all hoped, that Tony has matured into a truly consistent star player. He's already got 2 rings and I bet he'll get another 1 or 2 by the end of the decade, so let's give him a break.

Oh, and watch his jumpshot continue to improve next year, and maybe a consistent 3-ball emerge. With a 35% or over 3-ball, and the kid's speed, he instantly goes very close to being the best PG in the league.

Lay off the kid already!




MY response can be broken down to 2 words..'decision making'..

[SPARKY]

If only TP could play half a game like Manu does.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

No, that's not it at all. Basketball is about so much more than scoring. As a bangin', defensive centre myself, I know this.

I just don't think TP played badly or "faded" this season as he has in the past. He was beaten up which took a step off him, and yet he still produced better than he did in the regular season. If he wasn't injured, we probably win the Dallas series (even though he played well, if he was fit he would have been better).

Either way, he didn't lose that series for us, Pop's smallball decision did IMHO, and I ain't givin up TP for anything less than Chris Paul, and that isn't going to happen, and nor should it.

TP will be fantastic again next year, and if we get the right chemistry we will win it all again.

Peace
Love
Unity
Respect
TP.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

I admit, at times TP makes bad decisions. So do all players as Manu showed us this yr in games 3 and 7 (not blaming him for the series though), just as he made almost perfect decisions in games 2 and 7 of the Finals last year.

TP's decision making could yet mature - it has improved in his first four years, and PGs take time to mature. I have faith in him. He's a killer. Look in those eyes. He wants to be the best and he'll keep trying his hardest to get there.

[Dartherus]

I admit, at times TP makes bad decisions. So do all players as Manu showed us this yr in games 3 and 7 (not blaming him for the series though), just as he made almost perfect decisions in games 2 and 7 of the Finals last year.

TP's decision making could yet mature - it has improved in his first four years, and PGs take time to mature. I have faith in him. He's a killer. Look in those eyes. He wants to be the best and he'll keep trying his hardest to get there.
Unfortunatedly, court vision is something you're born with, not something you can learn, it can be improved with a lot of training or experience for sure, but not as much as many people think, it's like the IQ you're born with.

Players with great court vision show that skill since being very young, Parker is in NBA for several years, and even in Europe he has always been a ballhog, and in NBA he hasn't improved court vision that much, as it's easy to notice...

In the starting five the players with the best courtvision are Manu and Tim, and the teamplay and passing game the Spurs want to play sometimes, isn't just possible with TP on court....

I perfectly understand why Pop asks parker to shoot that much, it's simple, a player as one-dimensional as Parker, is practically useless in ofense, if he's not penetrating and shooting. So Pop tries to get the best that can be gotten from him, unlike Manu or Tim, that can contribute a lot without the need to score or shoot that much....

That's why I think that for a title contender like Spurs, it wouldn't be so bad idea to Trade Parker now, when he's at the peak of his trade value...to get player(s) that have more variety of skills, more suited for a title contender team. It doesn't have to be precisely a PG, wich can be gotten thru other trades...for isntance, a Kirilenko, Nocioni, Rashard Lewis kind of player, who is great in defense, but contribute a lot in offense also, would create a third offesnive threat, then there would be no need of a scoring PG, as it's needed now, don't you think?

[Lady M]

i can't understand how the spurs can break the victories record this year
they only lost the games without the best spur courtvision with Tim

[strangeweather]

Unfortunatedly, court vision is something you're born with, not something you can learn, it can be improved with a lot of training or experience for sure, but not as much as many people think, it's like the IQ you're born with.

Players with great court vision show that skill since being very young, Parker is in NBA for several years, and even in Europe he has always been a ballhog, and in NBA he hasn't improved court vision that much, as it's easy to notice...
Some players, like Jason Kidd, are gifted with court vision early on. Others, like Chauncey Billups, develop it during their career thanks to experience. In last year's playoffs, it sure looked like Antonio Daniels had a whole lot more of it then than he had when he played for the Spurs.

If Antonio Daniels can develop pretty good court vision, I don't see any reason why Parker can't as well.

Besides,the guys who are genuinely gifted are almost never available anyway -- I don't see John Stockton out there on the FA market. Parker has a ton of other extremely valuable skills, and he's still developing as a player. It would be silly to get rid of him now.

[FromWayDowntown]

What court vision do you want Parker to have? I mean, when he can get to the rim -- which he does with incredible consistency -- would you rather that he kick out to a shooter than take the layup or teardrop? All things being equal, I'll take the layup every time over a three-pointer.

Parker doesn't roll up big assist numbers, but that could be as much a product of the Spurs' system as anything else. The Spurs don't play a system that would ever lend itself to gaudy assist numbers. When they're going, they exploit the advantages that Tim Duncan affords and move the ball as a team to find the best shot they can. It's not a point-oriented offense that relies on a specific guard creating shots; it's a team-oriented offense that relies on that ball movement to create shots. They mix in some pick-and-roll, but even that isn't necessarily designed to create assist opportunities for the point guard; for crissakes, they play as much screen-and-roll with Manu as they do with Parker. In any event, it should be clear by now that Parker excels at playing in this system. And he's only getting better.

Add to that the fact that Popovich understands that Tony Parker is an exceptional scorer for his size and an improving jump shooter, and you can understand why Parker doesn't spend much of his offensive energy trying to be a Nash-type. In some ways, those factors make Tony more dangerous than Nash.

In the end, though, so many Spurs fans are ridiculously spoiled and threads like this one prove it. Does Tony Parker have some flaws? Absolutely, every player does. But is Tony Parker a wonderful fit for the San Antonio Spurs? Undoubtedly. You are fans of a team with an explosive scoring point guard who has won 2 titles before the age of 25 and is working his ass off every summer to improve some significant facet of his game. And how is he repaid by those fans? They start talking about trying to deal him!! Ridiculous, ridiculous -- a thousand times: ridiculous!

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

Well said WayDowntown. :smokin

Although Parker's vision is not at a Stockton or Magic level, it's still not that bad! Dartheus, you're making out like he can't see the floor at all. If anything, he's slightly above average I would have said.

Remember PG and C are the hardest posns to fill, so I say again, TP is a 24 yo all-star on a very reasonable contract for what he provides and who finally showed consistency this year, and you want to trade him?????

Will never get it, sorry. Agree to disagree at this point.

TD, TP and Manu, playing at the level they are, are untouchable IMHO. They make us perrenial contenders to the end of the decade. What the hell else do people want? :madrun :rolleyes

[Please_dont_ban_me]

After thinking about it...

I've come to my senses. I wouldn't trade TP for Kirk.

[exstatic]

Chris Bosh.

[Dartherus]

What court vision do you want Parker to have?
If you can't recognize POOR court vision, then you need to get real Basketball experience, either as a player or as a coach...


I mean, when he can get to the rim -- which he does with incredible consistency -- would you rather that he kick out to a shooter than take the layup or teardrop? All things being equal, I'll take the layup every time over a three-pointer.
That's fine during regular season, where D isn't that strong, but what playoff did you see? fine 20ppg what at expense of clear teamplay? this happening season after season? and Parker fading in hot moments?


Parker doesn't roll up big assist numbers, but that could be as much a product of the Spurs' system as anything else. The Spurs don't play a system that would ever lend itself to gaudy assist numbers.
Sure, when players like Tim or Manu has near the assist Parker has, it's because Spurs system doesn't let many assists...


When they're going, they exploit the advantages that Tim Duncan affords and move the ball as a team to find the best shot they can. It's not a point-oriented offense that relies on a specific guard creating shots; it's a team-oriented offense that relies on that ball movement to create shots. They mix in some pick-and-roll, but even that isn't necessarily designed to create assist opportunities for the point guard; for crissakes, they play as much screen-and-roll with Manu as they do with Parker. In any event, it should be clear by now that Parker excels at playing in this system. And he's only getting better.
The mavs series showed how he 'excels'...


Add to that the fact that Popovich understands that Tony Parker is an exceptional scorer for his size and an improving jump shooter, and you can understand why Parker doesn't spend much of his offensive energy trying to be a Nash-type. In some ways, those factors make Tony more dangerous than Nash.
That would be PERFECT if he, despite having great speed and dribbling, would ALSO have at least some decent court vision, or even if not having court vision, he'd learn when he has an off night and stopping being so one-dimensional, and learn to take a step aside and try to play more team-oriented....


In the end, though, so many Spurs fans are ridiculously spoiled and threads like this one prove it. Does Tony Parker have some flaws? Absolutely, every player does. But is Tony Parker a wonderful fit for the San Antonio Spurs? Undoubtedly. You are fans of a team with an explosive scoring point guard who has won 2 titles

Thanks to him or despite his one-dimensional play?


before the age of 25 and is working his ass off every summer to improve some significant facet of his game. And how is he repaid by those fans? They start talking about trying to deal him!! Ridiculous, ridiculous -- a thousand times: ridiculous!
Seattle is trying to rebuild, don't you think they'd trade a young PG with an AllStar in his back for Rashard Lewis? don't you think that would be a 'ridiculous' trade to suggest? Don't you think that with Lewis, 3 scoring threats would still be available? and then the PG position could be filled by a not as good scorer, but at least less predictable PG?

[SPARKY]

Sure, when players like Tim or Manu has near the assist Parker has, it's because Spurs system doesn't let many assists...

That's because TD, Manu and TP all have the rock in their hands for roughly about the same # of possessions on average in a game. I don't know why Spurs fans expect TP to put up huge assist totals when the offense they run is designed to spread the rock around so as to be unpredictable.

Why are the Spurs trading TP again? Damn. Bitch about Pop's offense if you don't like how Parker is utilized but get some perspective.

[strangeweather]

Seattle is trying to rebuild, don't you think they'd trade a young PG with an AllStar in his back for Rashard Lewis? don't you think that would be a 'ridiculous' trade to suggest? Don't you think that with Lewis, 3 scoring threats would still be available? and then the PG position could be filled by a not as good scorer, but at least less predictable PG?
So who is this alternate PG? Beno?