Third Presidential Debate

[timvp]

So who won?

The winner will be determined by the gullup poll like it was last time.

[whottt]

Dammit I bet on Kerry by mistake. The incumbent is supposed to be on top!

Bush won this one, that makes 300 precious VBucks I wave squandered by multitasking!

[timvp]

:lol

Take ten seconds to read the bet before you press the submit button :)

[SpursWoman]

I didn't watch most of it.....all the negativity and finger pointing is starting to wear on me.



It did put my kids to bed early, though. :)




I did bet on it, though. Just 'cause. :nerd

[Shelly]

I didn't watch, but Fox said Bush won, so I bet on Bush.

:lol

[CosmicCowboy]

The winner will be determined by the gullup poll like it was last time.

:lmao

hehehe I thought it was a typo the first time...I like your name better TimVP...kind of connotes the poll of the gullible... :lol

[timvp]

:smokin

[LandShark]

Bush won, no contest. :elephant

[Shelly]

vBookie Cash: $0

Dang, CC!

A run of bad luck or did you bet a lump sum?????

[SpursWoman]

:lol :lol @ CC


I just re-opened this thread to re-read that, that struck me kind of funny before...that's what I thought...



:lmao

[CosmicCowboy]

A run of bad luck or did you bet a lump sum?????

hehehe...yeah...I shot it all on this one...never underestimate the gullibility of the average american...

IMHO the gullup poll will show Kerry winning by a few points...

[timvp]

I was going to call it the gullup bull but I wanted to see who got it.

:drunk

[CosmicCowboy]

BTW...

I partially figured out why neither one of these motherfuckers has a handle on real health care costs...

I am probably the only one in this forum that writes health care checks every month to cover my employees and their families...if I am wrong feel free to correct me...

When Kerry was talking about every american getting the "same" plan that congress gets and Bush said it cost *gasp* $7200 a year to provide that level of coverage I had an epiphany...

the insurance companies ae losing their ass on the coverage they are giving congress to keep them insulated from the REAL world...

My family rates range from $900 to $1600 a MONTH depending on how they are rated...and I shop the hell out of health insurance...

*mumble mumble mumble*

no wonder congress doesn't have a clue...

[SpursWoman]

if I am wrong feel free to correct me


I was responsible for it at my previous employer for about 7 years. I know very well how it all works...we had to go through benefits cuts, so there was some serious shopping around to get the most for less for us & our employees.

It was in the manufacturing industry and yes, it was long before Bush was in office.


:fro

[timvp]

20 more minutes before voting ends.

[CosmicCowboy]

in my case I have hung on till the bitter end...and watched my personal income drop every year as health care took a larger and larger chunk out of net profits...I still pay 100% of employees AND families but quite honestly don't know how much longer I can continue to do so...

*sigh*

I still think it is the right thing to do but at some point I know I will finally have to either change that or close the doors...health care as we know it has simply gotten too good and at the same time too expensive...

*sigh*

[SpursWoman]

We ended up switching from 80/20 to 50/50 .... but it was costs well above that that led to our demise.

Switching to at least a partial employee contribution can help quite a bit and enable you to still offer the same quality of care. I think your employees would much rather keep their job, IMO.

[Kori Ellis]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/polls/tables/live/2004-10-14-poll.htm

Looks like Kerry won, 52-39.

[Kori Ellis]

Whottt, you are so damn lucky. :lol

[exstatic]

What? All of the board conservatives said that BUSH won?!!? Oh wait...they did the first two times, too. :lol

Oh well, whottt, at least you got some of your VBookie$$ back.

[Nbadan]

This was like taking candy from babies. Sorry I missed it.

[Uncle Donnie]

I felt Kerry won the first two but I really thought Bush took this one. Just goes to show how opinions can differ.

Maybe I am becoming conservative. :spin

[Shelly]

I am probably the only one in this forum that writes health care checks every month to cover my employees and their families...if I am wrong feel free to correct me...

I write it every month. It's gone up a lot. We have Blue Shield of CA and some elected to go HMO. But since they don't have an HMO in Texas, I got to stay with a PPO.

Don't get me strarted on what I write to 3 different unions each month.

Dang..Lost my first bet.

[CosmicCowboy]

Dang..Lost my first bet.

yeah...I had to make up for the Texans losing in overtime last weekend...

see...it's not "0" anymore... :p

[IcemanCometh]

pretty obvious this was on domestic issues, and we all know bush has no domestic policy

[SpursWoman]

And Kerry's is fukkin wonderful! (http://www.spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4337) :shootme

[Samurai Jane]

My boss just got a letter that they are increasing my health insurance to $1000 a quarter, for just me. Used to be ~300. Unfortunately, I don't think he's going to be able to shop it around because I've had some issues come up lately that I'm waiting to hear back on.

[CosmicCowboy]

welcome to the health insurance nightmare...they individually rate everyone based on their health history...in the small business world there is no longer "group rating"...every employee and family gets rated individually...it sucks but thats the way it is...

[Shelly]

Yep--My dad never, ever made any employees pay for health insurance and we've always had a PPO. A few years ago, they raised the rates so much that he offered for the first time an HMO. Those that went with the HMO, he paid for, but the PPO he took deductions out of the payroll checks (Which was just he and my brother and me. But since Blue Shield doesn't have an HMO, I was spared). They just raised the rates this years. It's insane. Our monthly bill is $3900.00 for 6 people. 3 are HMOs, my brother and I are PPO. My dad's off because of the Medicare thing.

BTW, I just looked up a history of what we've paid to our Ironworker's Union. In Dec. 2000, our bill was $52,000! And if you're a day late, you get hit with liquidated damages. It's not uncommon for that bill to average around $20-25k. Yeah, that means we're busy, but that doesn't mean we get paid by our customers in 30 days.

[JohnnyMarzetti]

Kerry was "smackin' that ass..smackin' that ass" last night!

[Marcus Bryant]

The main reason health care costs are skyrocketing is that so many pay for health care through 3rd party payers (ie insurance companies and the govt). If you can pay 20 cents for every dollar worth of medical care then you are going to want a lot of it. That is why premiums continue to rise and why HMOs came along in the first place. The reason why most people have gotten health care insurance through their employers is because during WWII employers started providing health benefits to employees to get around the price controls which were in place at the time. Then the IRS ruled that the value of such benefits were not taxable for the employee. Workers started to expect those benefits and yet the cost of those benefits started to increase significantly as insurance companies had to raise premiums to keep up with the cost of the claims. Hence the advent of the HMO, which employed some rationing methods in order to keep the cost of the premiums low. A lot of people hate HMOs because of that rationing. A government takeover of health care would create the largest HMO in the history of mankind.

We should move back to insurance being used for high cost, relatively low probability events such as major surgeries and extended treatment and hospital stays for severe illnesses. The government can provide assistance to those lower income individuals and families who can't afford the premiums. As for routine expenses such as doctor visits and drug prescriptions for individuals, that's where medical IRAs enter the picture. And again, for those who need assistance because they can't afford to pay for it, the government can provide that assistance.

As for the bargaining power of health insurance companies versus drug companies, I'd say some insurers are rather large enough to bargain effectively with them and I'd also point to the track record of federal government agencies such as the Department of Defense when it comes to negotiating deals with private contractors. It's also a situation ripe for political corruption. The US being the global leader when it comes to medical innovation and research. That is driven by the fact that our health care industry is still market driven and the returns are there to attract the investment which leads to those new discoveries. That is directly at risk the more we increase the government's role in the health care industry.

This is not to say that the Bush administration is the font of all wisdom, for there is plenty of fiscal and monetary matters on which I am considerably less than enthused with what he has done.

The gist of what I am saying is that the best way to proceed is to keep the health care market a free market with the government's role being to provide financial assistance to those who cannot afford to pay for the routine care or the catastrophic health care insurance premiums, but not to create a mammoth insurance program in which everyone is coerced into it due to the fact that they are being taxed to pay for it. I'd also say this is the preferable model when it comes to other industries in which the federal, state, and local governments are involved heavily, such as K-12 education.


source (http://www.marcusbryant.com)

[Marcus Bryant]

This was Bush's best performance of the three debates. Great poise, great demeanor, good humor, the most eloquent I've seen him in some time, and very clear in his statements. Another poll I saw (ABC?) had the outcome as a draw. Again, pretty strong considering that all his opponent has to offer is 'free shit for every goober out there' and half of the country will believe that because they want it or aren't wise enough to understand otherwise.

I, for one am glad that Bush does not have a plan to increase the role of government in our lives to the extent that Kerry outlined last night. I just wish he'd show that much resolve in limiting how much he seeks to increase federal government involvement in education and also limit further expansion of entitlement programs.