Phoenix Suns: Take a Step Back

[pussyface]

I think a lot of people will get on me for bagging on the feel-good Suns right after their elimination, but I sincerely am not that impressed with their playoff run this year. Let me explain.

Although this seems ridiculous when someone says "hey they were two wins away from the Finals and perhaps a favorable matchup with Miami" lets take a closer look at how they got so close.

For one thing, these Suns finished the playoffs with a record of 10-10 (.500). (compare that with, for instance Dallas at 12-5 or Miami at 12-5)

Than consider who they played: I believe there are about 8 other teams in the NBA who could have qualified for this years WCFs if they had the Sun's path of playing the 2 LA franchises. This includes:

Miami
Dallas
SA
Detroit
NJ
CLE
SAC
Memphis (I like them to beat the Clippers, but its debatable)

Taking an objective step back, I believe, suggests that this year's Suns squad was largely a mirage.

[Holmes_Fans]

I think if the clippers and lakers could get the WCF gametape and take it back in time with them, they would easily win. Mavericks showed all you have to do is penetrate the paint and their defense opens up.

[ChumpDumper]

No Amare.

Thread closed.

[pussyface]

what does that have to do with it?
this is the suns team as it is presently constructed.
last year they had amare and that wasnt enough either playing dantoni ball.
I for one am not counting on Amare ever coming back and being the player that he was.

Just because a team didnt have their real best player, can we not evaluate how close our league mvp really is to leading his team to the finals?

it is not difficult to argue that the Suns are the 7th or 8th best team in the league despite their third place finish.

[picnroll]

This is probably the stupidest post of an incredible number of stupid posts by Mavs' trolls. Amazing, simply amazing. I swear most of these idiots must have started watching basketball for the first time this playoffs.

[Shank]

They had Amare last year and still didn't get any further than G6 of the WCF.

It wasn't the lack of Amare, it was the lack of an effective bench that ailed the Suns.

[ChumpDumper]

what does that have to do with it?Everything.
last year they had amare and that wasnt enough either playing dantoni ball. They had a much more formidable opponent.
Just because a team didnt have their real best player, can we not evaluate how close our league mvp really is to leading his team to the finals?I'm sure you never played the what if game when Dirk went down either.

Get real.

[pussyface]

PICNROLL: How about you tell me where im going wrong?

this is rational analysis here you fucking baby. i know you dont like me and all, but that doesnt mean you dont have to support what you are saying with some sort of reasoned argument.

[pussyface]

the injury thing is weak.
mike dantoni has no appreciation for just how difficult it is to win an NBA title, but i excpect him to develop it through years and years of coming up short.
it really comes across with statements like "thats why we will win a title here soon" last night ("because our guys have charachter" (?)).
when you get to rarified air like the WCF you can't take it for granted that you will be back. thats why the injury excuse goes out the window, just as it did or should have for dallas when Dirk went down in 03 WCF. i look for fine regular season records and future second round exits from you guys in future years a la Nellie's Mavs.

[picnroll]

They had Amare last year and still didn't get any further than G6 of the WCF.

It wasn't the lack of Amare, it was the lack of an effective bench that ailed the Suns.
Dumbshit you and your fellow morons just went through a thread saying how injuries were insignificant. Try the fact that Amare and Kurt Thomas weren't available and Bell was playing on one leg after game one. Pray you get a title this year because you window is opening and closing in 2006.

[ChumpDumper]

the injury thing is weak.Cut-and-pasting your own posts in multiple threads is weaker.

[pussyface]

"They had a much more formidable opponent."
Although it doesnt really matter what your opinion is on this and your a little biased, I agree with you that that the Spurs are kryptonite to the Suns in terms of matchups and the Suns will not be beating the Spurs in any 7 game series in the near future.

[Brutalis]

See how Dallas gets all the calls in this playoffs, Phoenix having Amare would have the Suns in the Finals.

Now, who wants to talk about an asterisk championship?

[pussyface]

dude, you brought up counterarguments that i already adressed.

chumpdumper is a spurs apologist

[ChumpDumper]

Although it doesnt really matter what your opinion is on thisSo then, neither does yours.

Shut down the boards!

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

ok lets see Dirk go down next season and see the Mavs make it to the WCF

and yes i am comparing Amare to Dirk.........both are dominant big men in different ways

[pussyface]

haha yeah..asterisk.
*Amare Stoudamire, a guy whose never won a title, did not play in this whole season.

thatll be just like the * by that 99 trophy you guys won in a shortened season (oh wait, thats kind of legitimate!)

[Brutalis]

haha yeah..asterisk.
*Amare Stoudamire, a guy whose never won a title, did not play in this whole season.

thatll be just like the * by that 99 trophy you guys won in a shortened season (oh wait, thats kind of legitimate!)
Was a full playoffs wasnt it? Yep.

Try not to make yourself look stupid, that's everyone elses job.

[pussyface]

I think the Mavericks would not be a legit. title contender without Dirk, just as Suns were not without Amare.

I think that our team without Dirk would really have a great chance to beat the Lakers and the Clippers.

[ChumpDumper]

You simply won't ever convince me that the Suns' injuries to Amare, Bell and Thomas had no effect on them.

[pussyface]

sorry, he played in about 2 games. thats an important distinction. stop crying you fucking baby.

[Shank]

Dumbshit you and your fellow morons just went through a thread saying how injuries were insignificant. Try the fact that Amare and Kurt Thomas weren't available and Bell was playing on one leg after game one. Pray you get a title this year because you window is opening and closing in 2006.

I never said anything of the sort.

[ChumpDumper]

I think the Mavericks would not be a legit. title contender without Dirk, just as Suns were not without Amare.

I think that our team without Dirk would really have a great chance to beat the Lakers and the Clippers.:lmao

Mavs go nowhere without Dirk. Just like the Spurs go nowhere without Duncan.

[pussyface]

of course they affected them. no one is arguing that you fucking baby

[Brutalis]

sorry, he played in about 2 games. thats an important distinction. stop crying you fucking baby.
Face facts, then there's no problem.

[picnroll]

Suns next year may add a healthy, maybe even improved Amare who was working on small froward skills. They have Diaw who will be better, his outside shot has improved considerably in one year and I'll bet he has a reasonable three by playoffs next year. I'd much rather have Diaw than Joe Johnson that they gave up for him. Assume Bell is healthy, not limpig on one leg. They have Marion who they may trade. Barbosa is improving. Nash is not declining. They have two Atlanta draft picks which are virtually guaranteed of being lottery picks that they could package for a hell of a player. Tinm Thomas has indicated he'd like to stay and I knowhe hurt Mav fans feelings but he's asolid player and hrt the Mavs in the playoffs. Truth is I'm a lot more worried about the Suns than the Mavs next year. Spurs can make a pickup or two to overcome the Mavs. Suns? Not so sure.

[Shank]

See how Dallas gets all the calls in this playoffs, Phoenix having Amare would have the Suns in the Finals.

Now, who wants to talk about an asterisk championship?

The '99 Spurs?

"What ifs" won't put an asterisk next to a title. WHAT IF the Pistons drafted Wade or Melo instead of Darko? WHAT IF the Spurs got Josh Howard instead of the Mavs?

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

only thing Amare ever did wrong was call himself black Jesus.......look at how that turned out :smokin

it always ends up ugly in the long run when you compare yourself to our saviour :fro

[Brutalis]

Suns next year may add a healthy, maybe even improved Amare who was working on small froward skills. They have Diaw who will be better, his outside shot has improved considerably in one year and I'll bet he has a reasonable three by playoffs next year. I'd much rather have Diaw than Joe Johnson that they gave up for him. Assume Bell is healthy, not limpig on one leg. They have Marion who they may trade. Barbosa is improving. Nash is not declining. They have two Atlanta draft picks which are virtually guaranteed of being lottery picks that they could package for a hell of a player. Tinm Thomas has indicated he'd like to stay and I knowhe hurt Mav fans feelings but he's asolid player and hrt the Mavs in the playoffs. Truth is I'm a lot more worried about the Suns than the Mavs next year. Spurs can make a pickup or two to overcome the Mavs. Suns? Not so sure.
Well said.

[Brutalis]

The '99 Spurs?

"What ifs" won't put an asterisk next to a title. WHAT IF the Pistons drafted Wade or Melo instead of Darko? WHAT IF the Spurs got Josh Howard instead of the Mavs?
I only see you saying what if.

Like I said, it was a full 15 win and your the champs playoffs then. Right? 15 other teams had a shot, got owned and blown. Asterisk? Or help? Don't blow your cover.

[Brutalis]

only thing Amare ever did wrong was call himself black Jesus.......look at how that turned out :smokin

it always ends up ugly in the long run when you compare yourself to our saviour :fro
Who cares? The talk is about talent, not how gay Kobe is in real life or whatever. Who cares what they are and say or do, look at the game, stats and wins. You know, what matters.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

The '99 Spurs?

"What ifs" won't put an asterisk next to a title. WHAT IF the Pistons drafted Wade or Melo instead of Darko? WHAT IF the Spurs got Josh Howard instead of the Mavs?


yeh what if the Nuggets drafted

- Wade instead of Melo
- Caron Butler instead of Skita
- Amare instead of Nene



:smokin

[pussyface]

yeah dude. thats laughable. not like the mavs have the deepest team in the league with plenty of firepower and lots of guys who can step up and carry the load for a night.

the funny thing is that you guys think you are on the side of reason and rationality and yet you act like you expect the suns to be crowned world champs really soon just so you can bitch and moan. when was the last time a team that didnt play defense won a title?
us mavs fans, we understand this from experience.

[ChumpDumper]

yeah dude. thats laughable. not like the mavs have the deepest team in the league with plenty of firepower and lots of guys who can step up and carry the load for a night.For a season?

Not a fucking chance.

You have a dominant player in Dirk.

Quit underestimating his worth like a stupid bitch.

[Brutalis]

yeah dude. thats laughable. not like the mavs have the deepest team in the league with plenty of firepower and lots of guys who can step up and carry the load for a night.

the funny thing is that you guys think you are on the side of reason and rationality and yet you act like you expect the suns to be crowned world champs really soon just so you can bitch and moan. when was the last time a team that didnt play defense won a title?
us mavs fans, we understand this from experience.
That's the most truth I have ever seen in my LIFE.

:lol :lol :lol

[pussyface]

It is funny that you guys claim to be more scared of the team you eliminated in 5 games than the one that just knocked you out.

you need to get your priorities straight.

im not too conscerned about who you fans think is the bigger threat though, because when your conference champs everyone is looking up at you anyway.

[pussyface]

dude...i am arguing we could beat the clipppers and lakers without dirk, and said first off we wouldnt be a contender, just like suns arent w/o amare.

all you do is try to nail me on stupid shit...i didn't realize that you have such a healthy fear of the la teams.

[ChumpDumper]

Hey, any Mav fan who underestimates Dirk is automatically the stupidest poster ever.

Congratulations.

[ChumpDumper]

all you do is try to nail me on stupid shit.Well, all you post is stupid shit, so it's pretty easy.

[Brutalis]

What's to be scared of dude? Seriously check it.

You had the refs 95% of the time in the series. ONE TECH on Fin called back when the game is long over that was decided by 1 point. Seriously, I can feel your agnst at Spurs still not respecting the Mavs, basically because we've owned you for so long we can't count the years anymore. And one victory over the most media attention and bullshit the NBA's seen since King/Lakers fiasco a few years back and we're the ones crying?

Get YOUR priorities straight.

EARN a fucking series. Instead of having refs or killing an already limping team.
MAN UP and EARN something for once, fucking Mavericks.


ps- I won't even go into using a former Spur and our playbook to finally win games in the playoffs. If you can't beat em, pay Stern and mimic them right?

[pussyface]

its sopranos time bitches.

in the mean time, you have done nothing to refute the serious and rational analysis i gave in my initial post.

tell me where im wrong and going 8-6 against the LA teams prooves a team is a title contender.

[Brutalis]

You must be the brother of the genius in the other thread, denial and ignorant Mavs fans.

[ChumpDumper]

in the mean time, you have done nothing to refute the serious and rational analysis i gave in my initial post. It's all about matchups and health. You didn't do a good job addressing those at all.

And you think Dirk isn't all that important for a successful Mav season.

Bravo.

[Brutalis]

Chump, who the hell is Dirk Nowitzki you guys refer to?

:)

[ChumpDumper]

No one of consequence.

[Brutalis]

I think he plays D-2 ball for UCA in Arkansas. Not sure.

[Shank]

What's to be scared of dude? Seriously check it.

You had the refs 95% of the time in the series. ONE TECH on Fin called back when the game is long over that was decided by 1 point. Seriously, I can feel your agnst at Spurs still not respecting the Mavs, basically because we've owned you for so long we can't count the years anymore. And one victory over the most media attention and bullshit the NBA's seen since King/Lakers fiasco a few years back and we're the ones crying?

Get YOUR priorities straight.

EARN a fucking series. Instead of having refs or killing an already limping team.
MAN UP and EARN something for once, fucking Mavericks.


ps- I won't even go into using a former Spur and our playbook to finally win games in the playoffs. If you can't beat em, pay Stern and mimic them right?

Once the word "ref" came up, you lost all cred with this post. You're nothing but a little bitch pussy that can't handle losing and have to make bullshit excuses to make yourself feel better.

Again, you're in a small minority of anyone that thinks the same shit you do. Earning a series? Winning a game 7 in SA and coming back from 18 down to Phoenix doesn't count as earning anything to you? Fuck yourself and die.

[Brutalis]

Again, denial.

Mavericks don't know how to talk with any sense when they win. When they lose, at least they mostly admit to obvious things.

You'll grow up one day and realize what a dumbfuck you are, don't worry.

[Shank]

If growing up makes life anything like yours, I'll prefer death.

Until you can show hard evidence of any of your insane "refs" theories, they live on only in your shadowed little mind.

It's fun pissing on you, though, because I know there's nothing you can come back with. Unless, of course, you want to tell me to go to another messageboard or remind me how many titles the Spurs have. But those certainly wouldn't be original.

[Brutalis]

You've been slammed, owned and fucked without lube by more than just me in this thread, buddy oh pal. Try harder or go talk it up on your little Mavs board. When you grow hair on your balls, come back and we'll discuss your denial or something.

[Shank]

You've been slammed, owned and fucked without lube by more than just me in this thread, buddy oh pal. Try harder or go talk it up on your little Mavs board. When you grow hair on your balls, come back and we'll discuss your denial or something.

Touchy little bitch, aren't you?

Show me this supposed slamming, owning and fucking. Or shoud I just point everyone to the thread in the Spurs forum where I'm showing you up 6 ways from Sunday?


:king

[Brutalis]

You started it, I'm finishing it.

I'll read your replies, but I won't promise they are worth replying to, much like this one. Ride your empty boat without the paddle back to the short bus Mr. Man.

[Shank]

You started it, I'm finishing it.

I'll read your replies, but I won't promise they are worth replying to, much like this one. Ride your empty boat without the paddle back to the short bus Mr. Man.

Wow. Zing!

[picnroll]

Leave anything about refs out let's look at the past, the series. Spurs were basically flawed. They had no long three/athletic big. They were forced to play small ball with a suboptimal group to do it with and no depth to do it with. Horry, by his own admission is tanked as a small ball player. Barry gave them a few ineffective minutes. They went into the season relying on NVE being an adequate backup. He sucked and gave them nothing. Ultimately the Spurs played a seven games series relying on six players. And with all that the Spurs were one Duncan putback from going to the WCFs. What happens when/if the Spurs address these issues? Obtain some depth, obtain an athletic big, obtain an adequate backup PG. It won't take a Duncan putback to put the Spurs over the top.

[JMarkJohns]

I think a lot of people will get on me for bagging on the feel-good Suns right after their elimination, but I sincerely am not that impressed with their playoff run this year. Let me explain.

Although this seems ridiculous when someone says "hey they were two wins away from the Finals and perhaps a favorable matchup with Miami" lets take a closer look at how they got so close.

For one thing, these Suns finished the playoffs with a record of 10-10 (.500). (compare that with...)

How about last year's Mavericks. The same team, by and large, that with sustained health and the luck of a few bounces adanced to the Finals for the first time ever.

Last year's Mavericks played 13 games, winning six of them. That's right, these same plucky Mavs went 6-7 last season.

Now, suppose I said this clearly showed how inferior a team they were upon entering this year? Would I have been smart to ignore past success? Would I have been justified in my claims? Would I have been foolish?

You sit in judgement against the Suns. That's all you do here.

You hype the Mavericks to the point where Memphis is a more worthy playoff opponant, with zero all-time playoff wins to their credit, than a Clippers team who nearly advanced to the Western Finals.

How is that logic? It can't even be supported. It's a claim, nothing more.

You say injuries weren't of much consequence. You say this, as a fan who's team pretty much had perfect health throughout this postseason run. What gives you the right to make such a claim? No, a team missing it's starting frontcourt and it's starting SG for half to all of the series didn't have any effect on the game. A team so desperate for defense and rebound, it missing it's two biggest rebounders and best perimeter defender meant nothing in the long run?

How is this logic? It can't even be rationalized. It's a claim, nothing more.


I've congratulated the deserving with the undeserving and you fall into the latter category. You're a whiny little know-it-all who's chanced into a perfect postseason run. A run, that had a rescinded Technical Foul never been called, might not even be continuing. Your team has had all the health, all the luck and has caught all the breaks. You're a team of destiny, evidently.

Unfortunately I guess that means we here have to wade through your crock of shit on a nightly basis now. I pray this perfect run of luck and health continues because you've dug yourself into such a damned hole. No ref-card, no-injury card, no-luck card. It's going to take near perfection by the Mavs. Anything happens, we now expect you to just shut the fuck up and soldier. No margin for error. No room for mistake. No heedance to injury or a bad bounce of the ball.

Seriously.

Those are your rules for success, not ours.

[picnroll]

Well put JMarkJohns.

[windboy226]

How about last year's Mavericks. The same team, by and large, that with sustained health and the luck of a few bounces adanced to the Finals for the first time ever.

Last year's Mavericks played 13 games, winning six of them. That's right, these same plucky Mavs went 6-7 last season.

Now, suppose I said this clearly showed how inferior a team they were upon entering this year? Would I have been smart to ignore past success? Would I have been justified in my claims? Would I have been foolish?

You sit in judgement against the Suns. That's all you do here.

You hype the Mavericks to the point where they are a more worthy playoff opponant, with zero all-time playoff wins to their credit than a Clippers team who nearly advanced to the Finals.

How is that logic? It can't even be supported. It's a claim, nothing more.

You say injuries weren't of much consequence. You say this, as a fan who's team pretty much had perfect health throughout this postseason run. What gives you the right to make such a claim? No, a team missing it's starting frontcourt and it's starting SG for half to all of the series didn't have any effect of the game. A team so desperate for defense and rebound, it missing it's two biggest rebounders and best perimeter defender meant nothing in the long run?

How is this logic? It can't even be rationalized. It's a claim, nothing more.


I've congratulated the deserving with the undeserving and you fall into the latter category. You're a whiny little know-it-all who's chanced into a perfect postseason run. A run, that had a rescinded Technical Foul never been called, might not even be continuing. Your team has had all the health, all the luck and has caught all the breaks. You're a team of destiny, evidently.

Unfortunately I guess that means we here have to wade through your crock of shit on a nightly basis now. I pray this perfect run of luck and health continues because you've dug yourself into such a damned whole. No ref-card, no-injury card, no-luck card. It's going to take near perfection by the Mavs. Anything happens, we now expect you to just shut the fuck up and soldier. No margin for error. No room for mistake. No heedance to injury or a bad bounce of the ball.

Seriously.

Those are your rules for success, not ours.

In agreement with you...Some Mavs fans are completely delusional. Championship teams often take years to break through and it looks like the Suns will probably do so in the next few years. The Spurs had to get through the Lakers, the Mavs the Spurs, and for the Suns it looks like it'll be getting through the injuries and allowing the team to gel(with the Spurs and Mavs in the way). The Suns have completely overachieved this year and it'll be very interesting to see them next year with Amare.

[pussyface]

How about last year's Mavericks. The same team, by and large, that with sustained health and the luck of a few bounces adanced to the Finals for the first time ever.

Last year's Mavericks played 13 games, winning six of them. That's right, these same plucky Mavs went 6-7 last season.

Now, suppose I said this clearly showed how inferior a team they were upon entering this year? Would I have been smart to ignore past success? Would I have been justified in my claims? Would I have been foolish?
----------------------------------------------------------------------
jmark...for a minute i thought you had a real point here, but then I realized that what you are saying is not relevant.

based on playoff performance last year, the mavericks did not demonstrate that they were a championship caliber team. of course nothing in my posts indicates that i thought it did. regular season win totals would have suggested otherwise as you noted, but last year's playoffs were a big dissapointment in Big D. The interesting and relevant point is that most who rank the Suns as contenders would cite this years "impressive" playoff run as Exhibit A.

As for the rest of your embittered ramblings about personal distaste for me, i'll excuse this because i know you are in a dark place after last night's turn of events.

I never made any claim that injuries don't matter. i said that they go out the window as an excuse when you are one of four teams left eligable to win a title.

As for the Memphis being a playoff patsy because they hadnt won a playoff game in franchise history, this is especially funny. I believe that in assesing the Griz, its more pertinenet to consider what they accomplished this year (winning 49 games and establishing a top 2 defense in the league statistically) than what a different set of guys who wore the same jerseys(like jason williams and james posey) did 1-2 years ago playing against two very elite teams (spurs and last years suns).

good luck punching numbers and reviewing tape... I reccomend that you do whatever you need to to maintain your grating tone of self-rightous indignation...

better luck to your nice little squad next year. remember, now as always, that your logic is infallable.

[pussyface]

JMARKJOHNS is my official spurstalk nemisis.
this guy has had far too much smoke blown up his ass for far too long.

[JMarkJohns]

JMARKJOHNS is my official spurstalk nemisis.
this guy has had far too much smoke blown up his ass for far too long.

:sleep

Remember, it's not a rivalry until each side wins. Let me tell you, you aren't going to win a battle, let alone the fight.

I recommend just slinking back to whereever you think you cut your chops and practice a bit longer before you start bustin' my snuts.

You're a little too young and far too stupid to have me concerned.

When logic meets a post of yours, it will be the first time.

[MadDog73]

I believe there are about 8 other teams in the NBA who could have qualified for this years WCFs if they had the Sun's path of playing the 2 LA franchises. This includes:

Miami
Dallas
SA
Detroit
NJ
CLE
SAC
Memphis (I like them to beat the Clippers, but its debatable)



Here's the main problem with your argument:

The Mavs beat the Griz in 4. It took 6 games to take down the Suns.

Suns > Griz

Shit, Suns could probably beat the Pistons this year, the way they were playing.

I don't understand why you'd want to take anything away from the Suns, as Mav fan, I'd try to make the Suns seem as fierce as possible in order to give my franchise more legitimacy.

But, whatever, if you want to say the Mavs haven't accomplished anything, then I won't argue with you.

[747]

Taking an objective step back, I believe, suggests that this year's Suns squad was largely a mirage.

Based on what? Your own perception? The Suns had a better regular season record than all but three teams in the NBA, and they played to a game 6 in the Conference Finals.

What part of that was a mirage? The 54 regular season wins, or the 10 postseason wins?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nba0506.htm

[pussyface]

Based on what? Your own perception? The Suns had a better regular season record than all but three teams in the NBA, and they played to a game 6 in the Conference Finals.

What part of that was a mirage? The 54 regular season wins, or the 10 postseason wins?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nba0506.htm

the 54 regular season wins were a mirage in that they came by playing a style of ball that is great in the regular season but has consistently failed to yield playoff success.

the 10 postseason wins were a mirage because 4 of them came to a dreadful Lakers squad, 4 of them came against an average clippers squad, and they lost just as many games as they won.

maddog, your right running down the suns doesnt make the mavs look good...im making this argument as a basketball ovservor not a partisan fan, a concept that might by foreign to a lot of people on this board who would rather believe in conspiracies etc. than take a step back to look at the facts.

[pussyface]

:sleep

Remember, it's not a rivalry until each side wins. Let me tell you, you aren't going to win a battle, let alone the fight.

I recommend just slinking back to whereever you think you cut your chops and practice a bit longer before you start bustin' my snuts.

You're a little too young and far too stupid to have me concerned.

When logic meets a post of yours, it will be the first time.

thats all well and good, but just saying it doesn't make it so. how about you respond to my post that dissected your flawed logic.

since you think your wisdom is soconsistent and bulletproof, how about you start by enlightening me on how you reconcile your idea that this years Griz squad ( a new cast of veteran players) can be written off based on past franchise playoff performance, yet beating the Clippers (with their abysmal playoff history) should be regaurded as an impressive feat that validates your team's elite status.

on the other hand, according to the logic you have put forth in dismissing the Griz, I should be blown away by the fact that you guys beat the Mighty Lakers because Magic Johnson and Kareem used to play for them.

[pussyface]

...Dantoni even admitted no one is going to respect the way his team plays until they win a title.

he should have said "no one outside of spurstalk" is going to believe this.

for holding the common sense basketball opinion, im catching a lot of funny hostility.

[mike detroit]

it had been awhile since i last saw Brutalis make an idiot of himself, all the while claiming he was winning the debate. good times, good times.

[MadDog73]

...Dantoni even admitted no one is going to respect the way his team plays until they win a title.

he should have said "no one outside of spurstalk" is going to believe this.

for holding the common sense basketball opinion, im catching a lot of funny hostility.


Well, I do agree with that.

PHX = no defense, Mavs = some defense.

(side note, did anyone else find it hilarous hearing Suns fans cry "defense, defense"? Suns fans should stay quiet when the opponent has the ball, and then yell "OFFENSE, OFFENSE" as Nash runs down the floor..."

As a basketball fan myself, I'm looking forward to the Heat/Mavs series. It could be a massive blowout if one team can force it's will on the other, or it could go to seven...

and I really have no clue who's going to win. (I picked Heat in 6 in vbookie, just because I couldn't resist the 15/1 odds!)

[pussyface]

a shouldnt have said "common sense" basketball opinion.
a better word would be "prevailing."

[pussyface]

like a fundamentalist who refuses to believe in evolution, jmark starts with his beliefs (the Suns are legit contenders, Steve Nash is a legit. 2 time MVP) and works backwards, yet never pauses to consider the shortcomings of the arguments he puts forth.

the result is some really funny, self-agrandizing rants.

[MadDog73]

like a fundamentalist who refuses to believe in evolution, jmark starts with his beliefs (the Suns are legit contenders, Steve Nash is a legit. 2 time MVP) and works backwards.

the result is some really funny, self-agrandizing rants.


To be fair, I think Steve did deserve the regular season MVP award.

He took a team with less talent than last year, and still ended up #2 in the West (even with the crappy seedings, still quite an accomplishment).

That said, the reg. season MVP award is about as meaningful as reg reason records against playoff opponents.

The real MVP will be in the Finals, and that will either be Dirk or Wade.

[RonMexico]

Let's just hope that Shaq and D-Wade and maybe even Antoine Walker get the coddling from the refs that Dirk and Devin Harris have gotten this whole playoffs, and then we'll see how much the word "ref" pops up in the vocabulary of trolls, Cuban, and Avery - please save this thread for that moment...

And I don't know how you can say that Memphis is a better title contender than Phoenix? The same Memphis team that is 0-12 in 4 playoff appearences? Un-real...

Lastly, of course you guys weren't scared of the Suns - that's why you played all kinds of disparaging videos on the jumbotron and tried to get Shawn Marion suspended for Game 6 or 7 because Adrian "I'll Dunk When I Want To" Griffin says: "He got me good; is there anything we can do?" His immediate thought after a non-intentional elbow is (1) to stare down Marion and (2) go to the bench and ask Cuban to try and get him kicked out a la Jason "prop-plane" Terry? Josh Howard's intentional smack to Tim Thomas's face was a lot more blatant because we all know Howard is a dirty player (and if you disagree - I'll forward the video evidence of this on its way to the league office... and please don't bring up the Thomas kiss to Dirk because that's just talking shit, not being "dirty" because both he and Dirk were talking enough BS on that play).

[TheSanityAnnex]

JMarkJohns is the shit.

[TheSanityAnnex]

And one victory over the most media attention and bullshit the NBA's seen since King/Lakers fiasco a few years back and we're the ones crying?

.

EARN a fucking series.ad of having refs or killing an already limping team.
Does this mean the Lakers didn't earn the series? So the Kings won!!!!!!!



Wooohoooooo. Kings win!!!! Kings win!!!! Kings win!!!!

[JMarkJohns]

thats all well and good, but just saying it doesn't make it so. how about you respond to my post that dissected your flawed logic.

since you think your wisdom is soconsistent and bulletproof, how about you start by enlightening me on how you reconcile your idea that this years Griz squad ( a new cast of veteran players) can be written off based on past franchise playoff performance, yet beating the Clippers (with their abysmal playoff history) should be regaurded as an impressive feat that validates your team's elite status.

on the other hand, according to the logic you have put forth in dismissing the Griz, I should be blown away by the fact that you guys beat the Mighty Lakers because Magic Johnson and Kareem used to play for them.

Problem is this. If you knew how to read, you'd see I never dismissed any team. You dismissed the Clippers on the basis of what? That the Mavericks didn't play them? I said you can't prove the Griz were an elite team while the Clippers a bum team, especially when the Bum team was one win from making the Conference Finals.

It's an all or nothing statement, not an either or. Both the Grizzlies and Clippers or neither. That's what I'm saying. You stated you believe the Grizzlies were more Title worthy in a first-round sweep than a Clippers team that came within one win of the Conference Finals and a Suns team who took two of the six games played vs. your Mavs in the Conference Finals.

It's not me who needs to justify his position with a logical response.

As for me saying your little rivalry is more of a beatdown in my favor, well... I'm not the only one who has said it.

Spurs fan

Well put JMarkJohns.


Damn good post. That was spot on.

Mavs fan

In agreement with you...Some Mavs fans are completely delusional.

Kings fan

JMarkJohns is the shit.


Suns fan

Current score JMark 1, face 0

We'll call this a best of 3.


Gotta say that pussface has been playing the role of "nail" to JM's hammer rather well thus far.

These are just the posts who highlighted one of my arguments against you and commended it. Not even the post who just happened to agree with my takes and disagree with your. I don't think I'd be allowed to quote all of them. Post would be too long and would probably exceed allowable bandwidth...

[RonMexico]

To be fair, I think Steve did deserve the regular season MVP award.

He took a team with less talent than last year, and still ended up #2 in the West (even with the crappy seedings, still quite an accomplishment).

That said, the reg. season MVP award is about as meaningful as reg reason records against playoff opponents.

The real MVP will be in the Finals, and that will either be Dirk or Wade.

Even if the Mavs get swept, Bennett Salvatore will bring an extra trophy over to Dirk and give it to him and apologize for not getting him to the line enough for them to win... or Dirk will reach out with his tongue and snatch it out of D-Wade's hands...

[BillsCarnage]

pussface, JM keeps hammerin ya and you continually play the role of nail to his hammer.

Face it, after your banter the mavs have zero margin for error.

[TheSanityAnnex]

These are just the posts who highlighted one of my arguments against you and commended it. Not even the post who just happened to agree with my takes and disagree with your. I don't think I'd be allowed to quote all of them. Post would be too long and would probably exceed allowable bandwidth...:lmao







Only because I know how much Pussy hates emoticons.

[JMarkJohns]

What part of that was a mirage? The 54 regular season wins, or the 10 postseason wins?

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/sagarin/nba0506.htm

Give. It. Up.

In pussyface's world of reason, 49 wins and a first round sweep equals Title contender while 54 wins and a Conference Finals run equals a one-season mirage.

[pussyface]

"Problem is this. If you knew how to read, you'd see I never dismissed any team. You dismissed the Clippers on the basis of what? That the Mavericks didn't play them? I said you can't prove the Griz were an elite team while the Clippers a bum team, especially when the Bum team was one win from making the Conference Finals."
---jmarks
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Look, im not going to win any popularity contests on Spurs talk, but you need to consider the possibility that the majority of people on spurstalk might be wrong.

You still havent addressed my direct criticisms.

People tend to think you are correct also because you blatantly misstate the case that I make. read my initial post: you interpreted that I said Griz are "elite" and clippers are "bums." what i said was that Memphis was one of the teams that could beat both LA teams...THEN I SAID THAT THIS WAS DEBATEABLE.

Go back and read the things that I say. Its there, post 1, big as life. This would lead to more reasoned debate than what we get when you see my screename and just start in with your personal resentment.

[BillsCarnage]

JM, but wasn't last season supposed to be a mirage? Once Amare went down weren't the Suns lottery bound this season?

</sarcasm>

Hey, we've been preaching it all season - that no inside game will eventually catch up to the Suns. Amazing how that's always over looked.

[pussyface]

similarly, i never said that the griz were contenders, only that they were a top 10 team in the league that would have had a great chance to beat the LA teams.

any chance you will acknowledge that there is any truth to the idea that the Suns had a favorable path to the WCF's?

I remember in a previous thread you responded "YES" to the question "Am i the only one in the world who isnt that impressed with beating the two LA teams?"

Although this idiocy seems to have a lot of weight here, you are not in the mainstream/majority opinion in traditional basketball circles.

[RonMexico]

What's an inside game?

Mavs fans of 2006: "Who is Rolando Blackman? I didn't know we had a team until Cuban managed a Dairy Queen for a day."

Btw, I went to high school with Ed T. Rush's son at Brophy and boy were they pissed when Cuban said Rush couldn't even manage a DQ, much less be the head of NBA officials...

[pussyface]

you'll never hear me suggest that the suns arent going to continue to win a ton of games in the regular season.

ive seen that act before, from you guys and my beloved nellie mavs.
one thing ive never seen is a team without defense win an nba title, and im not convinced that this is a pure coincidence.

[RonMexico]

Haha, a Mavs fan talking about "traditional basketbal circles"... the irony is too obvious to continue...

[JMarkJohns]

Than consider who they played: I believe there are about 8 other teams in the NBA who could have qualified for this years WCFs if they had the Sun's path of playing the 2 LA franchises. This includes:

Miami
Dallas
SA
Detroit
NJ
CLE
SAC
Memphis (I like them to beat the Clippers, but its debatable)

Taking an objective step back, I believe, suggests that this year's Suns squad was largely a mirage.

Can't misquote this. You claim Memphis and Sacramento are Title qualifiers while Phoenix and LA Clippers aren't.

Has nothing to do with misquoting or debate, bub. Your words, in their entirety. Nothing added. Nothing taken away. Just your mindnumbing idiocy front and center and coming back to bite you in the ass.

[pussyface]

haha...great point by Ron.

[pussyface]

jmark- your reading comprehension leaves a lot to be desired.

I listed teams OTHER THAN THE SUNS that could have done what the Suns did. It would not have made any sense to list the Suns there, because they already proved that they could do it.

rather than trying to force implications that i never made, how about you tell me where my analysis is wrong.

[TheSanityAnnex]

I bet I can piss further than both of you.

[SirChaz]

the 54 regular season wins were a mirage in that they came by playing a style of ball that is great in the regular season but has consistently failed to yield playoff success.

the 10 postseason wins were a mirage because 4 of them came to a dreadful Lakers squad, 4 of them came against an average clippers squad, and they lost just as many games as they won.



Failed to yield playoff success?

I would say consecutive runs to the WCF the first time mostly using 6 players and the next without their most dominant player qualifies as playoff success.

Not to mention many teams have won championships with a similar fast-break style of ball(The Suns style does not require a lack of defense BTW). But somehow I am not surprised at your lack of knowledge in this area since it was mostly before 1990 and therefore most likely before you were born.

To start the season I was hoping for a division title and a second round appearance. They more than exceeded my expectations so I see this season as any thing but unsuccessful or a mirage of some sort.

Congratulations to the Mavericks on their well earned victory. You on the other hand can take your condescension stick it up your ass.

[BillsCarnage]

Look, im not going to win any popularity contests on Spurs talk, but you need to consider the possibility that the majority of people on spurstalk might be wrong.

Have you thought that with so many posters countering your arguments with the same general idea that maybe you might be wrong?

[pussyface]

Can't misquote this. You claim Memphis and Sacramento are Title qualifiers while Phoenix and LA Clippers aren't.

Has nothing to do with misquoting or debate, bub. Your words, in their entirety. Nothing added. Nothing taken away. Just your mindnumbing idiocy front and center and coming back to bite you in the ass.

this list was labeled as teams i believed could beat the LA teams. i gave no indication that i thought these teams were title contenders (nj/cle/mem, etc)

its hard to argue with a guy who distorts what you say beyond recognition.

[JMarkJohns]

...SUNS TAKE STEP BACK...

...I sincerely am not that impressed with their playoff run this year...

...I believe...that this year's Suns squad was largely a mirage.

You didn't have to not include them in your who's who of Pussyface's Title Contenders to imply, if not state out right they didn't belong.

These three statements clearly imply you think they were undeserving. While your inference of lesser competition and lesser record suggest they really shouldn't have been their at all.

It's fine that you think such. Obviously so many here, of probably much more basketball experience and knowledge aren't enough to dissuade a stubborn, old goat like you. Maybe you should be the one questioning your stance, not I, after so many here, of so many team affiliations, disagree, if not even vehemently disagree. But go ahead and shrug this off. You're too good to think twice. Hell, after reading your posts, it's apparent you're too good to think even once.

[pussyface]

Failed to yield playoff success?



To start the season I was hoping for a division title and a second round appearance. They more than exceeded my expectations so I see this season as any thing but unsuccessful or a mirage of some sort.

Congratulations to the Mavericks on their well earned victory. You on the other hand can take your condescension stick it up your ass.

again, lets stick to things that i actually said. i totally agree that the Suns exceeded any reasonable expectation by advancing to WCFs. ...

[BillsCarnage]

again, lets stick to things that i actually said. i totally agree that the Suns exceeded any reasonable expectation by advancing to WCFs. ...

So explain how that's a mirage again?

[pussyface]

again, you have isloted my most sweeping and sensational quotes while ignoring the substantive basketball reasons i put forth.

im sorry if you thought i was listing contenders: I clearly stated that this was merely a list of teams that I believed could have qualified for WCfs if given the Suns path; in fact, the whole point was that many of those teams werent serious contenders either.

great dad humor in furthering your personal grudge against me!

[JMarkJohns]

again, lets stick to things that i actually said. i totally agree that the Suns exceeded any reasonable expectation by advancing to WCFs. ...

SSSSOOOOOO... an undersized, undermanned team exceeds an and all reasonable expectations for their season, yet they have taken a step backwards in so doing?

Pray tell, how?

Logic, meet pussyface's boot, then meet curb.

[pussyface]

So explain how that's a mirage again?
its a mirage because they didn't beat any impressive teams to get there and still only finished .500.

[pussyface]

SSSSOOOOOO... an undersized, undermanned team exceeds an and all reasonable expectations for their season, yet they have taken a step backwards in so doing?

Pray tell, how?

Logic, meet pussyface's boot, then meet curb.
a step backwards? where do you get this stuff from? Again, I never said anything close to this. Thats becoming a common theme here, yes?

I would say that there were a lot of promising developments for your nice little squad (development of young players etc.)

according to my crazy, nonsensicallogic, not being a legit. title contender doesnt mean that you didnt have a nice season and didnt make strides towards improvement.

[SirChaz]

again, lets stick to things that i actually said. i totally agree that the Suns exceeded any reasonable expectation by advancing to WCFs. ...


So you are not impressed with the Suns playoff run.

Yet you admit they exceeded all reasonable expectations.

In what world does this make sense?

[JMarkJohns]

again, you have isloted my most sweeping and sensational quotes while ignoring the substantive basketball reasons i put forth.

The praise received from the posts already addressing your BS tells me:

Veni Vidi Vici



im sorry if you thought i was listing contenders: I clearly stated that this was merely a list of teams that I believed could have qualified for WCfs if given the Suns path; in fact, the whole point was that many of those teams werent serious contenders either.

Revisionist history at its finest. Since when is a team just a few wins away from the Finals not a Finals or Title contender? You clearly impy more than you seem to know.

You just stated that Sacramento and Memphis could come within a few wins from the Finals, yet they aren't Title contenders?

That's fine, don't ever let any one of us interrupt your "I'm as right as I ever was... I'm as right as I ever was" session.

[JMarkJohns]

a step backwards? where do you get this stuff from? Again, I never said anything close to this.

Haha, holy crap... Look at the thread's title?

Oh damn...

[pussyface]

making the wcfs is a nice accomplishment. im not gonna deny that.

but im also not gonna say that making a conference final means you are knocking on the door of an inevitable title or something.

its also worthwhile to be self critical and take a step back to analyze how they got there; luckily for you Suns apologists, there are people in the Phoenix front office who are surely taking a good hard look at what their guys need to improve for next year.

[pussyface]

jmar; you are an idiot
"take a step back" in the reflexive, self-examination sense.
your run is over, now is the time for a sober assesment of how you guys can get better and how close you really are to winning a title.

its funny you took it in the literal sense; you must be an engineer.

[JMarkJohns]

making the wcfs is a nice accomplishment. im not gonna deny that.

but im also not gonna say that making a conference final means you are knocking on the door of an inevitable title or something.

Nothing is ever inevitable. Not in any sport. Injury occurs and does so at the most inopportune times (see Raja Bell's injury).

However, if being one of the final four teams left standing isn't an indicator of being a Title contender, then Pistons? Yeah, your 10-8 record is much worse than last year. Buh-bye.

Not every team can sweep every round.


its also worthwhile to be self critical and take a step back to analyze how they got there; luckily for you Suns apologists, there are people in the Phoenix front office who are surely taking a good hard look at what their guys need to improve for next year.

You have no idea to whom you're talking. Ask Bill. I'm probably the most critical Suns fan there is. With me, it's always what went wrong, not what went right. If they win, its a "Yeah, but they still got killed on the glass or still took too many threes" mentality. Before the playoffs I said this Suns team would struggle, even in the first round and that, unless they started to play hard, they could even lose. I had them losing to the Clippers in six games in the second round and believe it or not, to the Mavs in six games in the Conference Finals.

I'm hardly a Suns apologist. I just don't like idiocy.

[JMarkJohns]

jmar; you are an idiot
"take a step back" in the reflexive, self-examination sense.
your run is over, now is the time for a sober assesment of how you guys can get better and how close you really are to winning a title.

its funny you took it in the literal sense; you must be an engineer.

Sure...

When I, as an English major and Journalist see Phoenix Suns: Take a step back it doesn't indicate anything but an opinion that these said Suns have taken a step backwards.

A sober assessment is this team playing in the Western Conference Finals wasn't the Suns team they had planned for in the offseason and that with Amare, Kurt Thomas and a healthy Raja Bell, they should be no worse off next year and may be significantly better.

That's all you need know, though, throughout this thread you have dismissed this aspect as well.

Besides, who the hell are you to think you're an authority on the Suns? You saw what, 10 games this year? Give or take a handful? I watched and/or taped every single game, save for three or four. Yet you are the one who's going to tell me what up?

Get the fuck out of town!

[pussyface]

Besides, who the hell are you to think you're an authority on the Suns? You saw what, 10 games this year? Give or take a handful? I watched and/or taped every single game, save for three or four. Yet you are the one who's going to tell me what up?

Get the fuck out of town!

its true that I haven't watched nearly as much Suns basketball as you, and I often find this line of reasoning to have a valid point.

in this case, though, i believe judgements can be made about the team based on there style of play and the ongoing storyline throughout nba history that suggests it is next to impossible to win a championship playing with the gimmick offense/one dimensional team that the Suns put out there.

I haven't seen your team so much, but I learned a lot about this firsthand while watching your team when they were called Don Nelson's WCF Mavericks of 2003.

As for the way you took the title of this thread, I think this reveals the way you go through my posts just looking for things to get pissed off at and expecting the worst. The punctuation (inclusion of a well placed colon) of the thread title is a clear indication that i didn't mean it in the regressive sense.

[pussyface]

that explains some of your hostility though..i agree it would be crazy to argue that these Suns took a step backwards this year.

so much of what you put forth is just misinterpreted or outright misinformation to the point where by the time I correct you, your already too pissed off to do anything but just go into some other attack mode.

Do you still think you were onto something when you tore into me about not listing the Suns among teams other than the Suns who could beat the LA teams, for instance?

[BillsCarnage]

its a mirage because they didn't beat any impressive teams to get there and still only finished .500.

They didn't make the schedule or pick who they wanted to match up against. And in the PO's you only have to be 4gms over .500 to win a title, no matter.

BTW, wasn't that unimpressive Faker team as you call them, the ones that handed the Mavs their worst loss of the season? 22pts, i believe.

[BillsCarnage]

So you are not impressed with the Suns playoff run.

Yet you admit they exceeded all reasonable expectations.

In what world does this make sense?

Geez pussface, Even Chaz in bringing the hammer now.

[BillsCarnage]

again, you have isloted my most sweeping and sensational quotes while ignoring the substantive basketball reasons i put forth.

:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

Now you're adding comedy to your routine. :lmao :lmao.

[RonMexico]

Whatever - Suns have blown out the Mavs twice this year in the regular season and held the lead once (both games at home - lost the one in 2OT) and then blown them out twice in the playoffs and lost the lead in the clinching game 6... they had difficulty closing in the beginning of the season and it bit them in the ass at the end of it too... that's why they had an 0-7 record in games decided by 3 pts or less this year... the main reason - early in the season it was chemistry issues and Nash admitted that he wasn't completely in shape... the second reason was that they didn't have their expected inside presence (Amare Stoudemire) to take over the game when they absolutely needed a score to stop the run(s)...

A main difference (since I have almost all the games in digital form... and it's summer... and I'm now bored and depressed, so I watch old games to make myself happy) is that in those late game situations Nash used to get calls/3 point plays when he drove to the basket and Dirk didn't get this extra-special treatment he's gotten all playoffs... with Nash not getting that respect, he went away from his game again and shot a lot of jumpers or passed out to the other guys... needless to say, the Suns lost the series, but they had a real shot at it because the Mavs aren't the untouchable team all these trolls make them out to be, especially if the Mavs didn't have Dirk for 99 of 102 total games...

[BillsCarnage]

You have no idea to whom you're talking. Ask Bill. I'm probably the most critical Suns fan there is. With me, it's always what went wrong, not what went right. If they win, its a "Yeah, but they still got killed on the glass or still took too many threes" mentality.

Are you TomTom/Jerkys Kids in disguise? :lmao

[JMarkJohns]

Are you TomTom/Jerkys Kids in disguise? :lmao

I said critical, not negative :)

[pussyface]

"They didn't make the schedule or pick who they wanted to match up against. And in the PO's you only have to be 4gms over .500 to win a title, no matter.

BTW, wasn't that unimpressive Faker team as you call them, the ones that handed the Mavs their worst loss of the season? 22pts, i believe."

good point...they didnt chose to play the mediocre teams they did. to me, that doesn't mean though that post-elimination, we shouldnt do an autopsy on the season and dissect how you got to where you got.

Yeah you only have to be 4 games over .500 to win a title, but no team has ever won a title in NBA history by doing so. Being taken to 7 games by every opponent yet winning the title is an unlikely scenario, given that your likely to see some pretty weak teams in the early rounds, as the Suns did. When you play .500 ball over 20 playoff games (including 2 series against teams of questionable pedigree), this is a pretty good indication that your not quite where you need to be.

if you think that beating Dallas by 21 in a regular season game proves that a team is a force to be reckoned with in the playoffs, than I am afraid you have overrated my Mavs. This team was owned by the Warriors in the regular season as well, but I probably wouldnt call them world-beaters either. A lot of crazy shit happens in an 82 game season, but not much of it is as crazy as your reasoning for why the Lakers can't be written off as a bad team relative to others in the playoffs.

[JMarkJohns]

Pussyface, until you have seen these Suns with Amare, Thomas and a healthy Bell, none of your "mirage" inference holds logic.

I do argue that you play who ya got and beat who ya play, but your not just talking about this series where this would apply. You are talking about the big picture of this past season and next year, so the talk of injury factors in, despite you not wanting it to.

I suggest you, as a known Mavs homer and Suns basher (basically your only purpose here), brush up on some grammar and semantics to know how to critique something without seeming like you're intentionally trying to put something down.

Instead of "Take a step back" might I suggest "A closer look".
Instead of "Was a mirage" might I suggest "obviously overacheived".
Instead of dismissing everything everyone says against you, might I suggest you take their critiques to better yourself as a post.

You're not so high and mighty that you can't learn something.

So, unless you look to incite rather than provide insight, please, take this thread and apply it. You have strong opinions. Those generally evoke strong reactions.

Also, you are the one who generally attacks posters. You've challenged a half-dozen posters here, either by calling them out or by name calling. Everything you criticize of people manifests itself in your own drivle.

[BillsCarnage]

"They didn't make the schedule or pick who they wanted to match up against. And in the PO's you only have to be 4gms over .500 to win a title, no matter.

BTW, wasn't that unimpressive Faker team as you call them, the ones that handed the Mavs their worst loss of the season? 22pts, i believe."

good point...they didnt chose to play the mediocre teams they did. to me, that doesn't mean though that post-elimination, we shouldnt do an autopsy on the season and dissect how you got to where you got.

Autopsy or woulda, coulda, shoulda?? I thought the Suns would have rolled the Fakers as they had the previous two seasons, but Jackson knew the Suns weakness and did everything he could to exploit it. Ditto w/the Clips.

Maybe it would have been more fair to play the Mavs in the west semi's when the Suns would have had more energy. But don't worry the NBA is soon to fix the "easy" path for next season.

Let me ask you this pussface, you being the bball expert an all... What do you think the Suns are missing to get over your mighty mavs?? What was their downfall this season?

[BillsCarnage]

This team was owned by the Warriors in the regular season as well, but I probably wouldnt call them world-beaters either.

So would you say the Warriors are a bad matchup for the Mavs??

[pussyface]

go back and read everything in this thread that you and I have written.

you have called me names in nearly every post; i have responded by and large by taking the high road and attacking the merits of your logic.

every time i see that you have posted in my thread, I hope against hope that you are going to address my basketball points, but inevitably you do not and prefer to keep it personal.

i think the fact that you guys were six wins away from a title this year is not in and of itself proof that this squad was championship caliber....those were 6 more wins that, to me, this particular amare-less group of guys werent ever going to get. so to me, mirage is appropriate. overacheiving also would have been appropriate, but doesn't express what i wanted to get across.

when you go back and look at the thread, notice how I at least pause to consider the things you are saying and refute them. often, my comments begin with things like "i have been thinking about your posts and..." or "although i first thought you were onto something here, i actually think its not valid for _____ reason."

can you honestly say to yourself that you have stopped to consider anything i have said for one moment? i think you pretty much skim my posts, find or misinterpret something to disagree with, and make a post that mixes this minor point with a personal rant against me.

[pussyface]

yes. i would absolutely say that we dont match up well with the warriors, even though they are by no means an outstanding team.

[pussyface]

Autopsy or woulda, coulda, shoulda?? I thought the Suns would have rolled the Fakers as they had the previous two seasons, but Jackson knew the Suns weakness and did everything he could to exploit it. Ditto w/the Clips.

Maybe it would have been more fair to play the Mavs in the west semi's when the Suns would have had more energy. But don't worry the NBA is soon to fix the "easy" path for next season.

Let me ask you this pussface, you being the bball expert an all... What do you think the Suns are missing to get over your mighty mavs?? What was their downfall this season?

autopsy or woulda/coulda/shoulda? Autopsy. this is the time of the year for you guys to be sober and evaluate what went wrong that led to your untimely playoff death. every team that gets eliminated from the playoffs at any stage needs to do this, in my estimation.

GREAT POINT in bringing up that the NBA has taken action to change the playoff format in a way that would have prevented the Suns from having such an easy path this year. Saying the Suns wouldve beat the Mavs in round 2 because they were fresher, of course, is the kinda "woulda coulda shoulda" you accused me of when i talked about doing an autopsy.

What do i think the suns are missing that was their downfall this season? Defense. Call me crazy, but i think you gotta be able to make some stops in the playoffs to win a title. ...im pretty sure it doesnt take a "basketball expert" to tell you that.

[JMarkJohns]

every time i see that you have posted in my thread, I hope against hope that you are going to address my basketball points, but inevitably you do not and prefer to keep it personal.

Do you recall the post where I listed all those who supported me? Yeah, they did so in reguards to my basketball posts. Not personal attacks.

Just because I choose not to agree with your takes, doesn't mean I fail to read them all or address those I have an opinion on.

It's you who needs to go back and reread. Maybe even take notes because you have a lot of learning to do.

Most here agree with me and that's all that matters. It shows sense has once again overcome personal opinion. You infer that being in the minority proved you a deep thinker. Hardly.

You sought me out several of the threads. You named me your nemesis. That's all you. I'm sure those are the words you've dreamed of hearing all along, so hear they are again: That's all you.

[BillsCarnage]

yes. i would absolutely say that we dont match up well with the warriors, even though they are by no means an outstanding team.

Ah, now we're getting somewhere... The LA teams might not be impressive/outstanding teams, BUT the Suns do not match up well with them - everyone under the sun saw this. Though i did think the Suns matched up fine against the Fakers. The PO's are about matchups, and despite an obvious disadvantage by the Suns to matchup against these teams they still found a way to win the series.

So based on your reasoning above, are the Suns overrated or better than you thought?

[pussyface]

Most here agree with me and that's all that matters. It shows sense has once again overcome personal opinion. You infer that being in the minority proved you a deep thinker. Hardly.

You sought me out several of the threads. You named me your nemesis. That's all you. I'm sure those are the words you've dreamed of hearing all along, so hear they are again: That's all you.

you became my e-nemisis by posting personal attacks in my threads with a grating, masturbatory tone.

im glad your happy with having the majority of spurs talkers agree with you and feel that this is "all that matters"...it is a relief to me that you admit to caring only about winning the popularity contest and have no pretension of putting forth cogent counterarguments.

You saying that my pointing out that the majority isnt always right "infers" that i think being outnumbered makes me right is another great example of the wild implications you take away from the rational statements I make.

You are all smoke, mirrors, and wild allegations.

[BillsCarnage]

autopsy or woulda/coulda/shoulda? Autopsy. this is the time of the year for you guys to be sober and evaluate what went wrong that led to your untimely playoff death. every team that gets eliminated from the playoffs at any stage needs to do this, in my estimation.

So what did the Mavs do different from last season to this? Seems like the same players are still there.


What do i think the suns are missing that was their downfall this season? Defense. Call me crazy, but i think you gotta be able to make some stops in the playoffs to win a title. ...im pretty sure it doesnt take a "basketball expert" to tell you that.

Ok, now you're starting to make a little sense. Would you say an inside presence in the paint would be a start? Maybe some shot blocking.. rebounding... A body in the paint to stop someone from getting layup after layup?

Now where could the Suns find these types of players; any thoughts?

BTW, before KT went down the Suns, ranked by defensive efficiency, were one of the best defensive teams in the league - #2 i believe.

[pussyface]

So what did the Mavs do different from last season to this? Seems like the same players are still there.

Ok, now you're starting to make a little sense. Would you say an inside presence in the paint would be a start? Maybe some shot blocking.. rebounding... A body in the paint to stop someone from getting layup after layup?

Now where could the Suns find these types of players; any thoughts?

BTW, before KT went down the Suns, ranked by defensive efficiency, were one of the best defensive teams in the league - #2 i believe.

...i am certain the mavs considered changes...in our particular case, standing pat was the best "change"...i think thats the exception not the norm.

Having a guy in the paint like KT might be good for you guys, but I worry about him clogging the lane offensively/slowing down the offense that is your bread and butter. if amare comes back healthy though, your right the Suns will be a really scary team.

As for that top 2 defense thing, to me that is proof of just how misleading some statistics can be. watching this team indicates that they are simply not good on the defensive end, yes yes? Good points.

[JMarkJohns]

you became my e-nemisis by posting personal attacks in my threads with a grating, masturbatory tone.

im glad your happy with having the majority of spurs talkers agree with you and feel that this is "all that matters"...it is a relief to me that you admit to caring only about winning the popularity contest and have no pretension of putting forth cogent counterarguments.

You are all smoke, mirrors, and wild allegations.

Yes, because as a Suns fan I strive to be popular on a Spurs site. This is why my first post here was greeted with "Hey fuckhole"...

I don't strive to be popular. I strive to be logical and to come away not as the victor, but as the post with the most reasonable and most proven opinions/thoughts.

You'd rather be right for all the wrong reasons than wrong for all the right ones. That's where you fail. I'm not afraid of being wrong. Not at all. I routinely drudge up posts of mine where I've been wrong. Both on the Suns and other teams.

Not that I'd expect a newbie like yourself with a limited understanding of the game and this site to know that. You came in, guns a blazin' and have been put in your place, not just by me, but by many with no one team affiliation. It's been a collaboration of team's fans, including several Mavs fans who have disagreed with your inferences and opinions.

I've only been one of many to stand up and both critique your "Basketball logic" and the reason behind it. When a newbie comes in with such a blatent agenda, one has to wonder why? You've criticized just about everything to do with the Suns. You've rubbed the Suns and the Suns fans noses in their own shortcomings while admitting that you aren't the authority on the subject that you like to pass yourself off as. You challenge posters of differing opinions to prove you wrong, when all you have is a debatable opinion on something that tends to go against logic, but can't really be proven or disproven at all. You speak in riddles and rhymes and try to come across as deeply intellectual. You use doublespeak to make your points so that when not embraced you have an out.

It's quite sad.

Say what you want. It's your party, you can cry if you want to.

[BillsCarnage]

...i am certain the mavs considered changes...in our particular case, standing pat was the best "change"...i think thats the exception not the norm.
But the Suns kept the system and changed the players and here they were again in the WCF's. Would that be an exception or norm?


Having a guy in the paint like KT might be good for you guys, but I worry about him clogging the lane offensively/slowing down the offense that is your bread and butter.
But this is why the Suns got KT so that he wouldn't clog the middle for Amare to work. KT can step out and shot a mid-range shot or he can let Amare go to work and then box out for a rebound.

if amare comes back healthy though, your right the Suns will be a really scary team.
Had Amare not been injured you likely would have seen it this year. Once KT went down the Suns were left for dead.




As for that top 2 defense thing, to me that is proof of just how misleading some statistics can be. watching this team indicates that they are simply not good on the defensive end, yes yes?

Well, i thought Dallas was up there as well - top 6 or so?? But when a team doesn't have any inside game the rest of the players - smaller btw - have to work that much harder on the defensive end - they couldn't rest. But when you're trying to guard someone 3-4" taller than you it's going to be difficult.

The Suns lead at the half of 5/6 games. They tired out the second halfs. Bench players who had good reg. seasons didn't step up in the PO's. They basically had a 6-man rotation.


Good points.
But JM has said many of the same things.

[Shank]

Suns with the #2 defense? Quite a misleading stat. Who gets bumped to 3rd? Detroit or San Antonio?

[pussyface]

You've criticized just about everything to do with the Suns. You've rubbed the Suns and the Suns fans noses in their own shortcomings while admitting that you aren't the authority on the subject that you like to pass yourself off as. You challenge posters of differing opinions to prove you wrong, when all you have is a debatable opinion on something that tends to go against logic, but can't really be proven or disproven at all. You speak in riddles and rhymes and try to come across as deeply intellectual. .

hehe...man, this post really let me know the extent to which I'm getting under your skin. Where to begin....?

First of all, you are projecting and I am loving it. I have written in the same tone as ever and you have deduced that I am "trying to come across as deeply intellectual." Thank you for a great compliment! (and from a self-professed journalism major!) If speaking eloquently and with ample vocabulary means im a try-hard intellectual, than I am really lost. The funniest thing yet is that you have gone from ridiculing me for my wonderful screename, than called me out for being obviously young, and now have moved onto this. Most guys who are going out of their way to try to come accross as intellectual wouldn't use a screenname like Pussyface. I appear to be a real original here.

Also, I really havent "criticized everything to do with the Suns." I hold the opinion that Steve Nash is not a legitimate MVP and the Suns weren't a title contender in '06. Get over it. The teams chance to prove me wrong is gone, but I guess thats not really the point. I actually imagine there are some (a small minority of well reasoned individuals) Suns fans out there somewhere who would agree with me on these two points.

Anyway, sorry you think i try to come across as an intellectual while at the same time sounding like a small child and running down the poor, injury depleated team that you clearly are a dispassionate, unbiased observor of.

[pussyface]

billscarnagie+markjohns=love

[JMarkJohns]

Suns with the #2 defense? Quite a misleading stat. Who gets bumped to 3rd? Detroit or San Antonio?

It was an adjusted, per-100 possession stat and it was equation that put an efficiency value on a team's overall defense and rebounding.

At one point, per-100 possession, San Antonio was #1, Phoenix #2.

This was with Kurt Thomas.

Once Thomas went down, things changed drastically for the worse. They no longer had depth, post-defense or rebounding.

It was a very tough loss for the team.

[JMarkJohns]

Anyway, sorry you think i try to come across as an intellectual...

You are trying to sound intellectual. The majority here deems that you've failed in this attempt. I'm just one of many. Even Maverick fans are starting to avoid your rantings...

[BillsCarnage]

Firs this..

you became my e-nemisis by posting personal attacks in my threads with a grating, masturbatory tone.

And now this?


billscarnagie+markjohns=love

[JMarkJohns]

Foot, meet mouth.

[pussyface]

your sense of humor is very appealing.

[Thespiralgoeson]

I really don't mean to be another Maverick troll, but I really wasn't at all impressed with Phoenix making the conference finals.

Truthfully, I wasn't overly impressed with their regular season, but that's not for lack of respect. Actually, it's a compliment. I honestly predicted that Phoenix would win their division (If I remember correctly my prediction was 52 wins) I thought everyone else was underestimating them.

But the reason I'm not impressed with their playoff run this year was because they got bailed out by the flaw in the seeding system. The fact of the matter is, they had the third best record, the Nuggets had the 7th best record, yet those teams were seeded 2nd and 3rd respectively, whereas a 60-win Maverick team was seeded below both. As far as I'm concerned, the Suns' deep playoff run this year wasn't legit because they should have played either the Mavs or the Spurs in the second round.

I'm sorry. I know it's supposed to be this amazing accomplishment that they were two games away from the finals without their best player (IMO), however the FACT is, they played the Lakers and the Clippers.

Don't get me wrong, they achieved just about the most possibly could given the circumstances. Really, a great season. However, I just don't consider this years WCF appearance to be legit. If they had beaten the Mavs or Spurs to do so, I would be on the bandwagon. However, I just don't think beating a 45 win Laker team and a 47 win Clipper team is all that awe-inspiring, even with all their injuries. Even less so when you consider that it took 7 games each to do so. I mean, honestly people, did anyone really think it was totally inconceivable that they would beat the Lakers and the Clippers? Sure, coming back from 3-1 was impressive, but in order to come back from such a defecit, you have to put yourself there in the first place.

Hell, of all people, Spurs fans should agree. The team that got screwed the most by the seeding system was the Spurs.

[AZLouis]

JMark = 2

Face = 0

This is getting to be ridiculous. At this point it's argument for argument's sake. JMark has got stats, facts, and actualities on his side, meanwhile face basically argues with his backup being a discredited opinion.

Maybe 'face would serve better discussing how much the Rockets have taken a step back? Or perhaps the Knicks?

[BillsCarnage]

Thespiralgoeson
Believe.

Position: Rugged Forward
Team: Dallas Mavericks
vBookie Cash: $500
Post Count: 3
---------------------------------

I believe there is a rule about posters w/ less than 10 posts.

Sit down and wait your turn.

[AZLouis]

Thespiralgoeson = pussyface?

After JMark lodged the "I have X amount of guys" backing me post, pussyface probably thought it best to "obtain" backup too...

LJMARKSCONTROLLINAO!

[SPARKY]

Leave it to Mavs fan to disparage the Amare-less Suns for finding a way back to the WCF.

The worst fanbase ever.

[SirChaz]

The Suns were seeded by the legitimate rules of the NBA = Suns playoff run legitimate.

If you want to say the Suns are being overrated for what they did then fine, your opinion. To say them reaching the WCF was illegitimate is just plain stupid.

They beat the teams they were scheduled to play.

[AZLouis]

The Suns were seeded by the legitimate rules of the NBA = Suns playoff run legitimate.

If you want to say the Suns are being overrated for what they did then fine, your opinion. To say them reaching the WCF was illegitimate is just plain stupid.

They beat the teams they were scheduled to play.

Leave it to Mavs fan to complain about the rules even after they won.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Thespiralgoeson
Believe.

Position: Rugged Forward
Team: Dallas Mavericks
vBookie Cash: $500
Post Count: 3
---------------------------------

I believe there is a rule about posters w/ less than 10 posts.

Sit down and wait your turn.

You know what I believe? I believe this site blows, as does Spursreport. Everyone on here is a buch of whiney little bitches. Everyone from the pathetic Spurs fans refusing to accept that their team just got beat, spouting conspiracy theories about ratings and Mark Cuban's influence, to the Pistons fans whom all season participated in this SICKENING love-affair with the Spurs fans about their predestined rematch, to the absolutely pitiful trolling Mav fans. And now I make an honest attempt to actually talk some basketball with some fellow fans here, and be polite in doing so, and I get this condescending bullshit.

Well fuck you, and fuck this forum. There's nothing more pathetic than fans bitching about excuses for why their team didn't win, and no excuse is more laughable and downright petty than the officiating. Add the conspiracy theories to boot, and you have a bunch of fucking whiney bitches that the 3 time NBA champions should be ashamed to call their fans. Again, Spurs fans of all people should be the ones who know this better than anyone, considering the "asterisk" bullshit the Spurs had to put up with after their first championship. It's even more infantile than the idiot Mav fans I've had to deal with bitching about how they would've won in 03 if Dirk hadn't gone down.

Fuck excuses. They're bullshit. Scoreboard, bitches.

[Thespiralgoeson]

The Suns were seeded by the legitimate rules of the NBA = Suns playoff run legitimate.

If you want to say the Suns are being overrated for what they did then fine, your opinion. To say them reaching the WCF was illegitimate is just plain stupid.

They beat the teams they were scheduled to play.

If the seeding system wasn't flawed, the NBA wouldn't be changing it next year. It was bullshit.

[ChumpDumper]

You know what I believe? I believe this site blowsWhich is why you registered and posted five times.

[Thespiralgoeson]

Which is why you registered and posted five times.

Because I was told by some other Mav fans that this site was better than Spursreport. I thought I'd give it a chance. Turns out I was misinformed.

[ChumpDumper]

Goodbye then. I expect you to stop at 6.

[SPARKY]

You know what I believe? I believe this site blows, as does Spursreport. Everyone on here is a buch of whiney little bitches. Everyone from the pathetic Spurs fans refusing to accept that their team just got beat, spouting conspiracy theories about ratings and Mark Cuban's influence, to the Pistons fans whom all season participated in this SICKENING love-affair with the Spurs fans about their predestined rematch, to the absolutely pitiful trolling Mav fans. And now I make an honest attempt to actually talk some basketball with some fellow fans here, and be polite in doing so, and I get this condescending bullshit.

Well fuck you, and fuck this forum. There's nothing more pathetic than fans bitching about excuses for why their team didn't win, and no excuse is more laughable and downright petty than the officiating. Add the conspiracy theories to boot, and you have a bunch of fucking whiney bitches that the 3 time NBA champions should be ashamed to call their fans. Again, Spurs fans of all people should be the ones who know this better than anyone, considering the "asterisk" bullshit the Spurs had to put up with after their first championship. It's even more infantile than the idiot Mav fans I've had to deal with bitching about how they would've won in 03 if Dirk hadn't gone down.

Fuck excuses. They're bullshit. Scoreboard, bitches.


...and Mavs fan wonders why they're regarded as the rednecked stepchildren of NBA fans. They might as well have caught a case of SARS after testing positive for HIV.

[JMarkJohns]

Thespiralgoeson
Believe.

Position: Rugged Forward
Team: Dallas Mavericks
vBookie Cash: $500
Post Count: 3
---------------------------------

I believe there is a rule about posters w/ less than 10 posts.

Sit down and wait your turn.

Haha, Son-uva-bitch :lol

Oh the milage we'll get from that gag! :fro

[JMarkJohns]

This is getting to be ridiculous. At this point it's argument for argument's sake.

I honestly believe it's been such the entire time.

[I H8 Mavs Fans]

You know what I believe? I believe this site blows, as does Spursreport. Everyone on here is a buch of whiney little bitches. Everyone from the pathetic Spurs fans refusing to accept that their team just got beat, spouting conspiracy theories about ratings and Mark Cuban's influence, to the Pistons fans whom all season participated in this SICKENING love-affair with the Spurs fans about their predestined rematch, to the absolutely pitiful trolling Mav fans. And now I make an honest attempt to actually talk some basketball with some fellow fans here, and be polite in doing so, and I get this condescending bullshit.

Well fuck you, and fuck this forum. There's nothing more pathetic than fans bitching about excuses for why their team didn't win, and no excuse is more laughable and downright petty than the officiating. Add the conspiracy theories to boot, and you have a bunch of fucking whiney bitches that the 3 time NBA champions should be ashamed to call their fans. Again, Spurs fans of all people should be the ones who know this better than anyone, considering the "asterisk" bullshit the Spurs had to put up with after their first championship. It's even more infantile than the idiot Mav fans I've had to deal with bitching about how they would've won in 03 if Dirk hadn't gone down.

Fuck excuses. They're bullshit. Scoreboard, bitches.



I wish all Mav fans were like this guy bravo my good sir, and enjoy DBB.com or mavtalk, whichever little weiner board you post at.

[SirChaz]

You know what I believe? I believe this site blows, as does Spursreport. Everyone on here is a buch of whiney little bitches. Everyone from the pathetic Spurs fans refusing to accept that their team just got beat, spouting conspiracy theories about ratings and Mark Cuban's influence, to the Pistons fans whom all season participated in this SICKENING love-affair with the Spurs fans about their predestined rematch, to the absolutely pitiful trolling Mav fans. And now I make an honest attempt to actually talk some basketball with some fellow fans here, and be polite in doing so, and I get this condescending bullshit.

Well fuck you, and fuck this forum. There's nothing more pathetic than fans bitching about excuses for why their team didn't win, and no excuse is more laughable and downright petty than the officiating. Add the conspiracy theories to boot, and you have a bunch of fucking whiney bitches that the 3 time NBA champions should be ashamed to call their fans. Again, Spurs fans of all people should be the ones who know this better than anyone, considering the "asterisk" bullshit the Spurs had to put up with after their first championship. It's even more infantile than the idiot Mav fans I've had to deal with bitching about how they would've won in 03 if Dirk hadn't gone down.

Fuck excuses. They're bullshit. Scoreboard, bitches.

:blah


:lmao

[Shank]

He's right about the 'fuck you' part, you know.

[pussyface]

these suns fans have conclusively proven that beating the la teams is a triumph. bravo! anyone who disagrees with this is just arguing for the sake of arguing. the issue is entirely one sided.

[JMarkJohns]

these suns fans have conclusively proven that beating the la teams is a triumph. bravo! anyone who disagrees with this is just arguing for the sake of arguing. the issue is entirely one sided.

You play who ya got.
You beat who ya play.
You never allow oneself to be in the position where one or two bad calls can blow your game.

What part of this do you fail to grasp?

No one is taking anything away from the Mavs for beating a pretty futile team in Memphis or for even beating an undermanned and undersized team in Phoenix.

You won. Just as the Suns did for the first two rounds. Both teams advanced. That's really all there is to it.

Quit bitching.

[MissAllThat]

Quit bitching.

:lol Asking a Mavs fan to quit bitching is like asking Shaq to learn to consistently shoot over 70% from the free throw line. Its just not going to happen, but I guess its nice to keep hoping.

[pussyface]

according to jmark, the only single peice of relevent information that can be taken away from the Suns postseason is that they finished in the final four.

to him, it is inconceivable that any other lesson could be gleaned by examining anything more in depth...

you suggest that all conference finals runs are inherently created equal because teams "played the teams they played" and "advanced".

do you think this might be a slight oversimplification?
would beating kobe's 06 lakers in 7 be an equal accomplishment to beating jordan's 90's bulls in 4 because all that matters is "advancing", or would one series win be more impressive/indicative of greatness than the other?
Consider this a rhetorical question, because I don't think there is any chance you are going to honestly consider this inquiry; your going to spout off about something irrelevent.

[JMarkJohns]

do you think this might be a slight oversimplification?
would beating kobe's 06 lakers in 7 be an equal accomplishment to beating jordan's 90's bulls in 4 because all that matters is "advancing", or would one series win be more impressive/indicative of greatness than the other?
Consider this a rhetorical question, because I don't think there is any chance you are going to honestly consider this inquiry; your going to spout off about something irrelevent.

What the hell are you even talking about? Every playoff team advances because of a few favorable matchups, whether it be favorable in player or in record.

Do you think Jordan's or Magic's or Bird's teams never played any lesser teams en route to the Title? You're fooling yourself.

Do I think a sweep over Jordan's Bulls is more impressive than a seven-game win over Kobe's Lakers? Of course, but where is the logic in this question? They are playing styles and decades apart.

The question you should have posed is "do I think the Mavs seven-game win over the Spurs is more impressive than the Suns seven-game win over the Clippers". Of course I do. Beating the defending Champions is always one of the hardest things to do, especially when they are a three-time winner. Suns did what was necessary to overcome a team that posed a lot of matchup problems. Mavericks did what was necessary to overcome a team that has plagued them for a number of years.

Of course the latter is the more impressive feat. Doesn't mean the prior isn't impressive when everything is taken into account. Were the Clippers better than the Spurs? No. Were they as tough a matchup as the Spurs? For the Mavs, probably not. For the undersized Suns, maybe so.

However, will I admit that a first-round sweep over Memphis is more impressive than come from behind, seven-game win over the Lakers? Not really. To me, neither the Grizzlies or the Lakers were particularly good teams. They were solid clubs with good records and one or two good players. Each had flaws that could be easily exploited. Where being impressed with the Suns factors in is that they were down and were counted out. They shouldn't have come back, but did. They shouldn't have been able to win in LA without Raja Bell, but did. They had nothing going for them, had very few bounces go their way, yet overcame. Rising up to the challenge is far more impressive than smoking a gimme team.

Will I admit the Mavericks trip has been more impressive? Of course. They won every series on the road. That shows they have finally figured out how to close out games and series. They whooped a team they should have, beat a team they shouldn't have and did what was needed against a team that has recently given them fits. They did a hell of job and I have stated such on many an occasion in many a thread.

However, the extent to which one is impressed with Dallas' success has absolutely nothing to do with the extent one should be impressed with the Suns', so again, I fail to see your logic or even your need to know.

[pussyface]

You play who ya got.
You beat who ya play.
You won. Just as the Suns did for the first two rounds. Both teams advanced. That's really all there is to it.

Quit bitching.

this rudimentary/grossly oversimplified afront to logic is what inspired my last post. you tried using this line of reasoning to suggest that it really doesn't matter who you played or how many games it took to beat them as long as you "advance," and that is why I invoked Jordan's Bulls.

All conference final runs are not created equal...that's my point, and one that you apparently agree with, although it seems to contradict your last post on page 6.

[pussyface]

when I make pertinent points that illustrate serious flaws in your logic, you unfailingly respond with something irrelevent using the rouse that you don't understand the relevance of where I'm coming from.

I have concluded that this is not because you are an idiot and are incapable of connecting the dots...I think it is because in this context, you are incapable of being intellectually honest with yourself. you are a classic narcicist.

[Trainwreck2100]

when I make pertinent points that illustrate serious flaws in your logic, you unfailingly respond with something irrelevent using the rouse that you don't understand the relevance of where I'm coming from.

I have concluded that this is not because you are an idiot and are incapable of connecting the dots...I think it is because in this context, you are incapable of being intellectually honest with yourself. you are a classic narcicist.


Actually it's cause nobody knows what the fuck you are saying.

[MadDog73]

Look, no rational person expected the Suns to go as far as they did.

The fact they beat the Lakers and Clippers is nothing to sneeze at... I had them losing to both those teams.

Of course, I had the Spurs beating the Mavs, and the Pistons beating the Heat, so I was way off this year.

Hmm, I guess you could argue the Pistons were a mirage, too, based on your logic (Piston opponents were weak, too). Good luck with that...

[pussyface]

i wouldnt say that they were a mirage the way the suns were, but playing as they were during the playoffs, like the suns, was never going too get them a title this year.

also, they didnt struggle with their atrocious first round opponent thw way phx did (5 games versus 7)

I cant imagine what in your analysis led you to believe that the Lakers would/should beat the Suns in a 7 game series.

going into the playoffs, phx was considered a second tier contender/"scary" team while LA was laughed off as a one-man show that shot its load just by qualifyinh for the postseason.

[pussyface]

another major problem with groupthink counterarguments: being an overacheiving team does not mean that a team is a serious contender.

i have never argued that they didnt overacheive or that their fans shouldnt be proud or whatever.

[MadDog73]

i wouldnt say that they were a mirage the way the suns were, but playing as they were during the playoffs, like the suns, was never going too get them a title this year.

also, they didnt struggle with their atrocious first round opponent thw way phx did (5 games versus 7)

Hmph. Lakers weren't that bad, a hella lot better than the Bucks in any case.

In any case, who cares about struggle? Didn't the Mavs let some team come back after a 3-0 lead, and tie it 3-3 one year? WTF was that about?

Crazy shit happens in basketball. The Suns were a good team, not as good as the Spurs or Mavs obviously, but not as bad as the Grizzlies, Lakers, Clippers, Kings, Nuggets, Wizards, or Bulls.

What the hell, since we're going by who took who to 7 games, the Best team is: The Heat (didn't go to seven games with anybody)

Hell, no point playing the Finals, hand the Heat the trophy, they're obviously the best. :rolleyes

If your whole argument is that the Spurs/Mavs should have been the WCF: Duh. Seedings were screwed up. But to say the Suns didn't even deserve to be there is going too far.

[pussyface]

"Hmph. Lakers weren't that bad, a hella lot better than the Bucks in any case.

In any case, who cares about struggle? Didn't the Mavs let some team come back after a 3-0 lead, and tie it 3-3 one year? WTF was that about?"

first point is debatable...couple of .500 teams...bucks have better players/lakers of course have best player...
at any rate, it is inconceivable to me that a real title contender (sa/dal) could have been pushed to 7 games by that Lakers team.

As for the Mavs blowing that 3-0 lead to win in 7, i can explain it this way; that mavs team was not a serious contender and was never going to win a title. its not a coincidence they went out in the next round that year. this is consistent with my stance that the phoenix suns of this year, like the Nellie Mavs of the past few years, aren't to be taken all that seriously as title threats.
Blowing a 3-0 lead is a pretty clear indication that something ain't right... its not a coincidence that no champ has ever let a team force a game 7 when leading 3-0.

[pussyface]

What the hell, since we're going by who took who to 7 games, the Best team is: The Heat (didn't go to seven games with anybody)

Hell, no point playing the Finals, hand the Heat the trophy, they're obviously the best. :rolleyes
screwed up. But to say the Suns didn't even deserve to be there is going too far
If your whole argument is that the Spurs/Mavs should have been the WCF: Duh. Seedings were .

this is one giant stretch. i feel okay about the Mavs going 7 with the Spurs because they were the two best teams in the league this year. this whole thread has been about looking at things like who yr wins came against to determine yr real place on the totem pole, not disregaurding what teams you play as irrelevent (as you did with your Miami argument).

Also, I never said any such thing as the Suns "didnt even deserve to be there." of course they did, they beat the teams they were matched up with; thats not their fault, but doesnt mean we cant step back and analyze in hindsight to come up with a realistic assesment of what the team really accomplished.

[JMarkJohns]

going into the playoffs, phx was considered a second tier contender/"scary" team while LA was laughed off as a one-man show that shot its load just by qualifyinh for the postseason.

Half the experts out there picked the Lakers over the Suns. So much for all that then.

[pussyface]

Half the experts out there picked the Lakers over the Suns. So much for all that then.

"About the only downer in the NBA right now is that Amare Stoudemire's knee never got better, or else the Suns could be considered serious title threats rather than just a dangerous second-tier contender... "

Dan Wetzel, Yahoo Sports playoff preview
Ill post you a link.
Maybe this isnt such a cut and dry, "you are 100% right" issue, huh?

[pussyface]

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=dw-nbaplayoffs042006&prov=yhoo&type=lgns

written on April 20.

[pussyface]

it is funny the extent that Suns' fans are going through to portray themselves as Little Sisters of the Poor. no one really expected the lakers to advance in the 06 playoffs, this is revisionist history.

Going into the postseason, the suns were in fact the LAS VEGAS favorite to come out of their side of the western conference to make it to the conference finals (NOT la/la/or denver).

...find me an article from anyone in the national media that says lakers were anything close to "second tier contenders."

Also, according to Vegas: Lakers were a clearcut underdog to the Suns (...just the facts).

[BillsCarnage]

:lol Asking a Mavs fan to quit bitching is like asking Shaq to learn to consistently shoot over 70% from the free throw line. Its just not going to happen, but I guess its nice to keep hoping.

:lmao :lmao :lmao

[JMarkJohns]

Tony Mieja, CBSSportsline: Suns in 7
David Dupree, USA TODAY: Lakers in 7
BJ Armstrong, ESPN: Lakers in 6
Greg Anthony, ESPN: Lakers in 6
Scottie Pippen, ESPN: Lakers in 7
Marc Stein, ESPN: Suns in 7
Chris Sheridan, ESPN: Suns in 7
John Hollinger, ESPN: Suns in 7
Stephen A Smith, ESPN: Suns in 7
Scoop Jackson, ESPN: Lakers in 6
Sean Deveney, TSN: Suns in 5
Andrew Bagnato, MSNBC: Lakers in 7
Steve Kerr, Yahoo: Suns in 6

Your guy doesn't even make a prediction. He talks about the Suns as dangerous, but also talks about a potential Clippers/Lakers matchup in the second round.

I think this clearly shows the majority of experts thought the Suns would struggle at best, lose at worst and they did so relatively evenly.

[picnroll]

pussyface is Monty Python's Black Knight of internet jousting. With no arms, no legs left he'll call it a draw.

http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/inlines/04_kn-1.jpg

[BillsCarnage]

pussface, make sure you stick around this board for a while - through the finals and lets even see if you have the cajones to comeback next season as well.

[JMarkJohns]

Going into the postseason, the suns were in fact the LAS VEGAS favorite to come out of their side of the western conference to make it to the conference finals (NOT la/la/or denver).

...find me an article from anyone in the national media that says lakers were anything close to "second tier contenders."

Also, according to Vegas: Lakers were a clearcut underdog to the Suns (...just the facts).

You do realize that these lines are meant to inspire betting, not be used as a sourse to base you illogical claims? They tend to leans significantly in one direction or another to evoke a "I can't believe they think the Suns will reach the Finals! No way?! I got 100 bucks that says they won't and with Dallas at 4-1 or San Antonio at 3-1, I'll take some of that"...

It's all about making money, not being accurate.

[RonMexico]

Only faggots (aka ESPN analysts) called the Mavs "title contenders" this year... and I'm not just making that up - Vegas has 5-1 odds that Stephen A. Smith and Greg Anthony do it the butt, but only 3-2 odds that Stephen A. gives him a reach-around...

[pussyface]

its hard to justify that las vegas odds are not indicative of who is considered underdog/favorite.

[MadDog73]

You do realize that these lines are meant to inspire betting, not be used as a sourse to base you illogical claims? They tend to leans significantly in one direction or another to evoke a "I can't believe they think the Suns will reach the Finals! No way?! I got 100 bucks that says they won't and with Dallas at 4-1 or San Antonio at 3-1, I'll take some of that"...

It's all about making money, not being accurate.


I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying Vegas puts up bad odds to encourage gambling? Wouldn't they lose money that way?

I'm pretty sure Vegas tries to make the odds as likely as possible. Obviously, it's called gambling for a reason, but if Vegas is just pulling numbers out of their ass, they'd lose a lot of money.

[BillsCarnage]

in all of my years watching and betting on sports, I have never heard of ANYONE making a claim that a team that was favored by "the line" was actually an underdog.

Saturday Sept. 10, 2006...
The ASU Sun Devils were the "underdog" against #5 LSU. The game was originally slated to take place in Baton Rouge, however due to hurricane Katrina the game was moved to Tempe. ASU was clearly an underdog, by 7pts i believe. Once the game moved so many people started betting on ASU - since it was a home game - that that it actually flipped the line in ASU's favor. By game time i believe the line was even or maybe back to LSU's favor.

[MadDog73]

Saturday Sept. 10, 2006...
The ASU Sun Devils were the "underdog" against #5 LSU. The game was originally slated to take place in Baton Rouge, however due to hurricane Katrina the game was moved to Tempe. ASU was clearly an underdog, by 7pts i believe. Once the game moved so many people started betting on ASU - since it was a home game - that that it actually flipped the line in ASU's favor. By game time i believe the line was even or maybe back to LSU's favor.

Who won?

[picnroll]

Katrina

[BillsCarnage]

LSU on 4th & 9 the tigers connected for a 35yrd TD.

It hurt.

[JMarkJohns]

I'm not sure I follow you. Are you saying Vegas puts up bad odds to encourage gambling? Wouldn't they lose money that way?

I'm pretty sure Vegas tries to make the odds as likely as possible. Obviously, it's called gambling for a reason, but if Vegas is just pulling numbers out of their ass, they'd lose a lot of money.

I'm not saying they put up bad odds. I'm saying they put up odds that make you question them, thus evoking response and for most who follow gambling, the response is, [/i]"I'll take some of that action"[/i].

They obviously know what they are doing. They have some of the best minds in the business, but they want to inspire a person to bet.

However, what I'm saying is their odds shouldn't be used as a prediction for overall outcomes.

[pussyface]

bump this thread. jmarkjohns making more crazy contentions, such as that las vegas odds are not indicative of who can be considered the consensus favorite/underdog.

also try his "Dallas: Taking a Step Back" thread for a good laugh and brief lesson in logic.

[JMarkJohns]

pussy, I got your goat and I aint' giving it back!!!

I think I'll sell it off, though it's probably as worthless as your opinions...

[JMarkJohns]

JMARKJOHNS is my official spurstalk nemisis.

Spurs fan

Well put JMarkJohns.


pussyface is Monty Python's Black Knight of internet jousting. With no arms, no legs left he'll call it a draw.

http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/inlines/04_kn-1.jpg


Damn good post. That was spot on.


JMark with da gunz blazing!

:lmao


Well i'll be damn...I go to work and look who finally shows up?

What's your excuse Pussyface? JM called you out and now u just replying???


Leave it to Mavs fan to disparage the Amare-less Suns for finding a way back to the WCF.

The worst fanbase ever.



Mavs fan

In agreement with you...Some Mavs fans are completely delusional.


...I think fans like "pussyface" look cowardly when they talk so much smack and then disappear... but those type of fans arent real fans in my book. The real fans are there always. Never jumpin ship...


Kings fan

JMarkJohns is the shit.


Suns fan

Current score JMark 1, face 0

We'll call this a best of 3.


JMark = 2

Face = 0

This is getting to be ridiculous. At this point it's argument for argument's sake. JMark has got stats, facts, and actualities on his side, meanwhile face basically argues with his backup being a discredited opinion.


LJMSCONTROLLINAO



Gotta say that pussface has been playing the role of "nail" to JM's hammer rather well thus far.


:lmao :lmao :lmao JM w/ the hammer yet again.