IN THEIR PRIME, which big man was the best?

[Bob Lanier]

McHale was absolutely a big man. The most complete post game in the history of basketball, a good rebounder, and a great defender. Hardly a seven-foot guard like Garnett or Robinson, and far more skilled than Shaq.

But he wasn't better than Shaq, and like everyone else on the list is a shadow of Hakeem's glory.

[DirkAB]

BAkriD, no offense man, but it's not like you're a fountain of information yourself.

You specialize in put downs, calling anyone "homers" or "fools" if they dare disagree that avg. career points decide who is the best.

As I said before, if people want a serious discussion, we need a consensus of:

What time periods constitute "Prime" for each big

What factors determine what is "best"



Of course, we won't ever get consensus on those factors, so this whole debate becomes a pissing contest.

Hey, I know what I call people, and I don't think that Homer is really a put down, it is just something that many fans are. I will admit I do get frustrated with people's bias toward their own team, and I know WTF do I expect from another teams fan site? That is one of my biggest flaws when it comes to being a basketball fan, I'm very critical of my own team, and I guess I expect others to be the same toward their own team.

As far as me calling people idiots and fools, honestly I only do that to spark responses and to get the thread moving, sometimes a thread needs a catalyst. I guess I don't mind playing the asshole in order to get a thread that I find very interesting going. I'm sure plenty of you think that is a crock, but whatever, everytime I've thrown out any kind of insult the thread has really picked up. So don't take offense to my bullshit.

The insults that I sprinkle in every now and again are nothing compared to the self-serving long-winded condescending rants that whottt goes off on. I've read enough of his posts to figure out that is the guy's shtick, and that he probably really believes it. I don't find it offensive, I find it sad and pathetic.

[whottt]

I'm not self serving and condescending, you're just annoyingly ingorant and unqualified to debate me on this subject...seriously, it's like you are asking for a link to prove the sky is blue...it's that stupid.


I don't mean to be rude about it, but you are fucking incredibly stupid on this topic. I am sorry it's just the truth. And I'm not gonna go do a bunch of googling because you are fucking stupid...do it yourself, and stop digging the hole even deeper. IT's not that I am full of shit here, it's that you are stupid. Really stupid, deeply stupid, seriously stupid and you are asking for proof of commonly known, easily verifiable stuff, known stuff. You are the stupid one, it's you that is stupid, you are the one that is reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaallllllly fucking stupid here. I can't and won't help you here. Because not only are you stupid, you were a dick while you were being stupid.


Look at my registration date, look at the name of the board, look at my team, then take a look at yourself...and realize which one of the two of us is likely to be the less informed on this topic. And the more open your mouth about it, the stupider you get.; Realize it, then shut up and then go googling.

[baseline bum]

And don't act like he didn't have any talent around him, AJ, Rodman, Del Negro and company were a pretty damn good supporting cast.


You gotta be kidding me. AJ was a good supporting guy, very flawed, but still a solid player.

Del Negro was one of the most worthless players the Spurs ever had. He could never even get into a team's rotation once the Spurs let him walk in 99. He never got any minutes in Milwaukee or Phoenix after. Del Negro was the kind of guy who could put up 18 on the Hawks in February, but anytime a game meant anything he was a complete no-show.

Rodman was a huge part of the Spurs blowing the '95 WCF. Did you watch that series? Rodman would get pissed, go sit on the baseline with his shoes off, and refuse to come into games. He refused to ever run back in transition, thereby letting Horry get constant dunks and layups on the break. Rodman was the ultimate stat-padder. He would just wait under the basket to grab offensive boards while Horry went nuts on the other end of the floor. All he cared about was grabbing rebounds, and he never tried to be the complete defensive player he was in Detroit in San Antonio. He cost the Spurs game 1 when he gave Horry a wide-open shot from about 15 feet when he ran under the basket to try to get another board for his total instead of try to help the Spurs try to win the game. In game 2 that POS shot three ridiculous three pointers in the first quarter while Horry scored off lob after lob, prompting the Spurs to noever play him significant minutes again the rest of the night. Rodman was the ultimate cancer, and the worst player in the history of the franchise.

[DirkAB]

I'm not self serving and condescending, you're just annoyingly ingorant and unqualified to debate me on this subject...seriously, it's like you are asking for a link to prove the sky is blue...it's that stupid.


I don't mean to be rude about it, but you are fucking incredibly stupid on this topic. I am sorry it's just the truth. And I'm not gonna go do a bunch of googling because you are fucking stupid...do it yourself, and stop digging the hole even deeper. IT's not that I am full of shit here, it's that you are stupid. Really stupid, deeply stupid, seriously stupid and you are asking for proof of commonly known, easily verifiable stuff, known stuff. You are the stupid one, it's you that is stupid, you are the one that is reeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaaallllllly fucking stupid here. I can't and won't help you here. Because not only are you stupid, you were a dick while you were being stupid.


Look at my registration date, look at the name of the board, look at my team, then take a look at yourself...and realize which one of the two of us is likely to be the less informed on this topic. And the more open your mouth about it, the stupider you get.; Realize it, then shut up and then go googling.

Wow.........just wow. I admit that you know more about the life of David Robinson, never did I claim otherwise. All I asked for is verification of a very bold statement you made, Robinson didn't work hard at developing his game, and you claim it is "easily verifiable" or "easily provable," yet you can't verify it for me. Why would you have to do a bunch of googling to verify such an easily provable fact? Maybe I am stupid, because that makes no sense whatsoever. I'm pretty sure that I could google my fuckin' ass off all day long and not find that little bullshit statement, that you presented as fact.

I'm not qualified to debate wheter Shaq or David Robinson was better player in their prime? Because you obviously know so much about both players and have no bias in this debate, right? Oh, I forgot you already admitted that you were a huge "Drob" homer.



LOL! I am the ultimate Drob homer but I promise I didn't have any preconceived ideas for that simplistic little ranking...and I didn't expect Drob to lead it by that much under any circumstances...


Is that what qualifies you to be a fair and partial judge of who is a better player? If it is then you've got me there, because I'm not a Shaq or Robinson homer. Personally, I couldn't stand either one of them, but I damn well respected both of them and what they could do on the court.

Or is it your obvious hate of Shaq that somehow qualifies you to rate the two in such an unbiased way. In no way do I believe that you have any respect for Shaq, quite the opposite, it is obvious after reading through this thread. You refered to him as a big fat stupid motherfucker, you said he charged his way to all his points, and you acted as if both players were in their prime during their early matchups.

Well, Shaq was still a very young guy in the NBA when Robinson in his prime, plus Robinson didn't shut him down anyways, which you so boldly implied. If you think Shaq putting up approximately his season averages on him was shutting him down, then I guess you are right. Truth is, their primes were years apart, so you can't really use their early matchups to support your arguement considering the premise of this thread. So considering that this was the basis of your whole arguement, and it is now thrown out the window because it isn't a legit basis to judge these two greats, what do you have left?

You know what, forget the Shaq v. Robinson arguement for now if you want and answer me this: Who is better, Duncan or Robinson? I'm very curious about your opinion on this, please answer.

[MadDog73]

Is that what qualifies you to be a fair and partial judge of who is a better player? If it is then you've got me there, because I'm not a Shaq or Robinson homer. Personally, I couldn't stand either one of them, but I damn well respected both of them and what they could do on the court.


I call Bullshit.


[b]Shaq was the most unguardable player to ever play in the modern era, at one time triple teams couldn't even stop him from scoring. Has anybody else in the modern age commanded such attention on the defensive end, and still been unstoppable? Not even close. [b]David Robinson was a fucking role player for his second title, and he wasn't even the best player on his team during his first title...

Come on. "The most unguardable player to ever play in the modern era"? Can you say, hyperbole? We already proved that David owned Shaq plenty of times, Hakeem owned Shaq, the Spurs owned Shaq in '99, '03, and the Pistons owned Shaq in '04.

So when was he "unguardable"? In 2000, 2001, and 2002? Three years?

Even then, Kobe had higher numbers than Shaq most nights. If Shaq was truly unguardable, he would have the most Laker points every night, and have more than 3 Rings.

I fully admit I'm a Spurs Homer. I don't know why you are a Shaq homer, maybe you felt by putting Shaq up on a pedestal, the Kings' embarrassing collapse could be assuaged.

I honestly don't know, but you are not infallible.

[Bob Lanier]

he never tried to be the complete defensive player he was in Detroit in San Antonio. ... ultimate cancer
:tu Worm was a true Piston patriot. It's a disgrace he hasn't had his number retired.

You're definitely right (and BAkriD definitely wrong) about Robinson's supporting cast overall, though. Del Negro was worthless, and Avery Johnson, Person, etc. were average at best. Sean Elliott wasn't bad in '95.

[DirkAB]

You gotta be kidding me. AJ was a good supporting guy, very flawed, but still a solid player.

Del Negro was one of the most worthless players the Spurs ever had. He could never even get into a team's rotation once the Spurs let him walk in 99. He never got any minutes in Milwaukee or Phoenix after. Del Negro was the kind of guy who could put up 18 on the Hawks in February, but anytime a game meant anything he was a complete no-show.

Rodman was a huge part of the Spurs blowing the '95 WCF. Did you watch that series? Rodman would get pissed, go sit on the baseline with his shoes off, and refuse to come into games. He refused to ever run back in transition, thereby letting Horry get constant dunks and layups on the break. Rodman was the ultimate stat-padder. He would just wait under the basket to grab offensive boards while Horry went nuts on the other end of the floor. All he cared about was grabbing rebounds, and he never tried to be the complete defensive player he was in Detroit in San Antonio. He cost the Spurs game 1 when he gave Horry a wide-open shot from about 15 feet when he ran under the basket to try to get another board for his total instead of try to help the Spurs try to win the game. In game 2 that POS shot three ridiculous three pointers in the first quarter while Horry scored off lob after lob, prompting the Spurs to noever play him significant minutes again the rest of the night. Rodman was the ultimate cancer, and the worst player in the history of the franchise.


What about Elliott, did he suck too? He was an all-star if I'm not mistaken.

BTW, Rodman isn't just a stat padder, how many rings does the guy have? Volitile yes, but playing along other greats and great team leaders he was kept in check. Great role player, one of the best role players of all-time.

Del Nego not getting into another teams rotation after leaving the Spurs, don't you suppose that had anything to do with his age? I suppose that some guys aren't near as effective after they get to 32 or 33. Not a great player, but a good role player.

AJ was a very underrated PG, flawed? I suppose, he wasn't much of a shooter, but he made up for it in other areas. His penetration, passing and defense were excellent, and what about his leadership? He was a very nice fit at the point for this team, they didn't need another shooter, they needed a guy who could penetrate. They had Person, Elliot, and Del Negro to do the outside shooting. And Doc Rivers wasn't a bad backup PG either.

I don't see how anybody could call that a terrible supporting cast.

[MadDog73]

I don't see how anybody could call that a terrible supporting cast.


So, it's Robinson's fault the Spurs never won a Ring before Tim, eh?

I guess that means Tim > all. Because if Robinson is a scrub, it's Shaq and Kobe being swept by just Tim in 1999. :rolleyes

[DirkAB]

I call Bullshit.



Come on. "The most unguardable player to ever play in the modern era"? Can you say, hyperbole? We already proved that David owned Shaq plenty of times, Hakeem owned Shaq, the Spurs owned Shaq in '99, '03, and the Pistons owned Shaq in '04.

So when was he "unguardable"? In 2000, 2001, and 2002? Three years?

Even then, Kobe had higher numbers than Shaq most nights. If Shaq was truly unguardable, he would have the most Laker points every night, and have more than 3 Rings.

I fully admit I'm a Spurs Homer. I don't know why you are a Shaq homer, maybe you felt by putting Shaq up on a pedestal, the Kings' embarrassing collapse could be assuaged.

I honestly don't know, but you are not infallible.

Defined owned? That is laughable, the Spurs held Shaq to numbers that more closely resemble their numbers instead of his. Do you call letting a guy average like 24,13,2,&2 owning or stopping? Please.

[MadDog73]

Defined owned? That is laughable, the Spurs held Shaq to numbers that more closely resemble their numbers instead of his. Do you call letting a guy average like 24,13,2,&2 owning or stopping? Please.

Shit, dude, you're the one saying he's "unguardable" not me.

You tell me why he's not averaging 40 points a night.

Is your argument seriously, "Shaq can make 24 points versus the Spurs, so he's the best"?

[DirkAB]

So, it's Robinson's fault the Spurs never won a Ring before Tim, eh?

I guess that means Tim > all. Because if Robinson is a scrub, it's just Shaq and Kobe being swept by Tim in 1999. :rolleyes

Seriously, why are you reading into my posts more than necessary? Acting like I'm making these lame-ass assumptions, implying that I'm making statements and using reasoning that I'm not. WFT?

[DirkAB]

Shit, dude, you're the one saying he's "unguardable" not me.

You tell me why he's not averaging 40 points a night.

Is your argument seriously Shaq can make 24 points versus the Spurs, so he's the best?

No you have it backwards, your arguement is since the Spurs kept him to 24pts, 13rbs, 2bl, 2as means that they owned him. That isn't owning, and that is as close as anybody ever came to owning him. What did he do to other teams? Remember? I do.

[MadDog73]

Seriously, why are you reading into my posts more than necessary? Acting like I'm making these lame-ass assumptions, implying that I'm making statements and using reasoning that I'm not. WFT?


Because you're not making any sense. You say Robinson had a great supporting cast. That implies you believe Robinson should have won a title before Tim. Then, when he does win a title, you say he's a "role-player", but yet, Shaq is praised for being able to avg. 24 points against him.

I mean, are you blind towards your own prejudice? Shaq is not all that you think he is. He only has 3 rings, the same as Tim. Robinson has 2, and that was not during his peak.

I just don't see how you can say Shaq > all modern big men based on avg. ppg alone.

[Bob Lanier]

What did he do to other teams? Remember? I do.
By "other teams", you mean the 38&15+3 blocks he put up against the Queens' front line in Games 6 and 7 in 2002?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1325000/images/_1326409_oneal300.jpg
DEEEE-FENSE! DEEEE-FENSE!

So David Robinson might be just a little bit better than Scot Pollard?

[DirkAB]

Becuase you're not making any sense. You say Robinson had a great supporting cast. That implies you believe Robinson should have won a title before Tim. Then, when he does win a title, you say he's a "role-player", but yet, Shaq is praised for being able to avg. 24 points against him.

I mean, are you blind towards your own prejudice? Shaq is not all that you think he is. He only has 3 rings, the same as Tim. Robinson has 2, and that was not during his peak.

I just don't see how you can say Shaq > all modern big men based on avg. ppg alone.

Jesus Christ, you're talking out your ass! I never said they were a great supporting cast, I said that they were a pretty good supporting cast. Did I say that Robinson should have won a title before Duncan? No, but I stated that he certainly did not, and may have underachieved at times in the playoffs. I said he didn't have the killer instinct that Duncan and Shaq have. I believe that Utah took them out a couple of times with no problems at all, when San Antonio was probably the better team. And I did say that Robinson was a role player for his second ring, is that inaccurate in any way? I'm not praising Shaq for his performance against the Spurs in the playoffs those 2 years, but I certainly don't think that is anywhere near being stopped.

BTW, I won't argue with anybody that puts Hakeem ahead of Shaq, even though I put it the other way around. It is a very close call, IMO.

[DirkAB]

By "other teams", you mean the 38&15+3 blocks he put up against the Queens' front line in Games 6 and 7 in 2002?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1325000/images/_1326409_oneal300.jpg
DEEEE-FENSE! DEEEE-FENSE!

So David Robinson might be just a little bit better than Scot Pollard?

Got me there, like my team is the only team he was doing it to back then, sorry don't think so.

[baseline bum]

.

[baseline bum]

What about Elliott, did he suck too? He was an all-star if I'm not mistaken.

BTW, Rodman isn't just a stat padder, how many rings does the guy have? Volitile yes, but playing along other greats and great team leaders he was kept in check. Great role player, one of the best role players of all-time.

Del Nego not getting into another teams rotation after leaving the Spurs, don't you suppose that had anything to do with his age? I suppose that some guys aren't near as effective after they get to 32 or 33. Not a great player, but a good role player.

AJ was a very underrated PG, flawed? I suppose, he wasn't much of a shooter, but he made up for it in other areas. His penetration, passing and defense were excellent, and what about his leadership? He was a very nice fit at the point for this team, they didn't need another shooter, they needed a guy who could penetrate. They had Person, Elliot, and Del Negro to do the outside shooting. And Doc Rivers wasn't a bad backup PG either.

I don't see how anybody could call that a terrible supporting cast.

I said AJ was a solid player for the Spurs, and yes, a very flawed player. He was a hell of a penetrator, and he had an a great hook off the run that he scored a lot of points with. He was also a terrible defender and his jumpshot was crap until 1998 or so. AJ's lack of a jumper killed this team for many years. To his credit, he busted ass and improved it tremendously late in his career.

Rodman was a complete stat-padder in San Antonio. I also used to think this was just Spurs fans whining and re-writing history to make David look better, until I went and downloaded the games and saw how worthless Rodman was. He was a huge negative impact on the Spurs. He was an amazing player on the Bad-Boys, but he became a nut and was traded for it. If you don't believe me that Rodman was such a negative impact on the Spurs, then how about believing NBA GMs since no GM would give the Spurs anything better than Will Perdue in exchange for him. Please remember this was before the salary cap was such a huge issue, so don't try to compare it to trading Vince Carter for Mourning's expiring contract.

I can't respect any argument that tries to paint Del Negro as a good player. He would never be a starter on any other contender. He was on the Spurs because Red McCombs was too cheap to re-sign Rod Strickland, and Del Negro was his bargain basement bandaid.

Elliott was a good player, and if Rodman showed up you could call that a great supporting cast. But he didn't and you can't.

[MadDog73]

Jesus Christ, you're talking out your ass! I never said they were a great supporting cast, I said that they were a pretty good supporting cast. Did I say that Robinson should have won a title before Duncan? No, but I stated that he certainly did not, and may have underachieved at times in the playoffs. I said he didn't have the killer instinct that Duncan and Shaq have. I believe that Utah took them out a couple of times with no problems at all, when San Antonio was probably the better team. And I did say that Robinson was a role player for his second ring, is that inaccurate in any way? I'm not praising Shaq for his performance against the Spurs in the playoffs those 2 years, but I certainly don't think that is anywhere near being stopped.


Bottom line: Why do you think Shaq is the greatest? Because he won 3 in a row? Because his career avg. is 26 points a game?

If you think that makes him the best, I can't argue with you. But the very fact that Tim, David, and Hakeem all beat Shaq in different occasions at least proves to me that Shaq is fallible, and not "the most dominant player in the modern age."

Hell, I think winning 3 rings over 7 years is much more impressive. But I can't convince you Tim > Shaq, so I won't even bother trying.

I lied. I will try to convince you. Do you think Tim is in his prime now? How about Shaq?

Who do you predict will end up with more Rings? And will that sway your opinion at all?

[bobbyjoe]

You gotta be kidding me. AJ was a good supporting guy, very flawed, but still a solid player.

Del Negro was one of the most worthless players the Spurs ever had. He could never even get into a team's rotation once the Spurs let him walk in 99. He never got any minutes in Milwaukee or Phoenix after. Del Negro was the kind of guy who could put up 18 on the Hawks in February, but anytime a game meant anything he was a complete no-show.

Rodman was a huge part of the Spurs blowing the '95 WCF. Did you watch that series? Rodman would get pissed, go sit on the baseline with his shoes off, and refuse to come into games. He refused to ever run back in transition, thereby letting Horry get constant dunks and layups on the break. Rodman was the ultimate stat-padder. He would just wait under the basket to grab offensive boards while Horry went nuts on the other end of the floor. All he cared about was grabbing rebounds, and he never tried to be the complete defensive player he was in Detroit in San Antonio. He cost the Spurs game 1 when he gave Horry a wide-open shot from about 15 feet when he ran under the basket to try to get another board for his total instead of try to help the Spurs try to win the game. In game 2 that POS shot three ridiculous three pointers in the first quarter while Horry scored off lob after lob, prompting the Spurs to noever play him significant minutes again the rest of the night. Rodman was the ultimate cancer, and the worst player in the history of the franchise.

Rodman isn't the one who got killed everynight by Hakeem, which by far and away is the #1 reason the Spurs lost that series. When you let the other team's best player drop 35-40 a night and shoot in the high 50's % wise, you are going to lose 99 times out of 100.

Why does Rodman have 5 rings if he was such a cancer? He was a HUGE part of both the Pistons and Bulls title runs. One of the best rebounders in NBA history and an excellent defender.

Rodman defending guys like Horry on the perimeter is an unrealistic expectation. That would be like chastising Parker for not defending Nowitzki well. When you have the best rebounder in the game you want a guy like that playing down low so he can use his best assets. From that perspective, the Spurs just matched up very poorly with Houston. DRob was no answer for Hakeem and who was there for Rodman to cover. It was probably better to just put Rodman on Hakeem in retrospect.

Blaming that series on him though is crazy when it's DRob who was just lit up like a Christmas tree from the tip of Game 1 to the final buzzer of Game 6.

[bobbyjoe]

I said AJ was a solid player for the Spurs, and yes, a very flawed player. He was a hell of a penetrator, and he had an a great hook off the run that he scored a lot of points with. He was also a terrible defender and his jumpshot was crap until 1998 or so. AJ's lack of a jumper killed this team for many years. To his credit, he busted ass and improved it tremendously late in his career.

Rodman was a complete stat-padder in San Antonio. I also used to think this was just Spurs fans whining and re-writing history to make David look better, until I went and downloaded the games and saw how worthless Rodman was. He was a huge negative impact on the Spurs. He was an amazing player on the Bad-Boys, but he became a nut and was traded for it. If you don't believe me that Rodman was such a negative impact on the Spurs, then how about believing NBA GMs since no GM would give the Spurs anything better than Will Perdue in exchange for him. Please remember this was before the salary cap was such a huge issue, so don't try to compare it to trading Vince Carter for Mourning's expiring contract.

I can't respect any argument that tries to paint Del Negro as a good player. He would never be a starter on any other contender. He was on the Spurs because Red McCombs was too cheap to re-sign Rod Strickland, and Del Negro was his bargain basement bandaid.

Elliott was a good player, and if Rodman showed up you could call that a great supporting cast. But he didn't and you can't.

AJ was an underrated PG. He penetrated well and was very effective at pushing the ball in transition and finding shooters in rhythm. Defensively he was average and he obviously lacked an outside Jumper. Overall though, he was certainly an above average PG. You don't need your PG typically to be a pure shooter but a pure passer instead, which AJ was.

2 Guard was the position which really held the Spurs back most of the Robinson era. At one point, the school of thought was to trade the #1 pick for Mitch Richmond and others.

[strangeweather]

i also know who took three different teams to the finals.
Tim has never signed with another team, but the 2005 Spurs and the 1999 Spurs had only one player in common: TD.

[miss paxton]

this is shaqs 6th or 7th trip to the finals, over a timespan of what, 13-14 years? maybe evn more.

To answer your questions, mavs4ever, Shaq was drafted in 1992. Tim Duncan was drafted in 1997. So Shaq's been in the league five more years than TD.

Shaq made it to the Finals in Orlando once, and was swept by Hakeem's Rockets. That's one. He won three consecutive titles in 2000-2002. That's another three, for four total. He made the Finals in 2004 and now in 2006. That's six. I don't think I'm missing any, but anyone can feel free to correct me.

So Shaq's winning percentage (so far) in the Finals is 60% (3/5), and could rise to 4/6 this year. Duncan's is 100% (3/3), in five fewer years.

[baseline bum]

Rodman isn't the one who got killed everynight by Hakeem, which by far and away is the #1 reason the Spurs lost that series. When you let the other team's best player drop 35-40 a night and shoot in the high 50's % wise, you are going to lose 99 times out of 100.

Why does Rodman have 5 rings if he was such a cancer? He was a HUGE part of both the Pistons and Bulls title runs. One of the best rebounders in NBA history and an excellent defender.

Rodman defending guys like Horry on the perimeter is an unrealistic expectation. That would be like chastising Parker for not defending Nowitzki well. When you have the best rebounder in the game you want a guy like that playing down low so he can use his best assets. From that perspective, the Spurs just matched up very poorly with Houston. DRob was no answer for Hakeem and who was there for Rodman to cover. It was probably better to just put Rodman on Hakeem in retrospect.

Blaming that series on him though is crazy when it's DRob who was just lit up like a Christmas tree from the tip of Game 1 to the final buzzer of Game 6.

Rodman absolutely didn't give a shit in that series. Tell me when Dennis Rodman should shoot three three-pointers in one quarter. Tell me when it's not important to get back on D in transition. Tell me when it's acceptable for a guy to go sit in the corner and refuse to enter games.

If Rodman wasn't a cancer in San Antonio, then why was Will Perdue the best the Spurs could get in exchange for him? Why did he never sniff real NBA minutes again after the Bulls broke up despite his pathetic comebacks with LA and Dallas?

The guy was a fucking loon who didn't accept Chicago's overtaking of the Pistons well (tell me a sane person pushes Scottie Pippen headfirst into the basket like he did). The guy plays for Tijuana right now.

Yeah, Robinson got his ass kicked in that series. That's not at all debateable... but what's horseshit is people coming in and saying he had such a great supporting cast because of Rodman. AJ and Elliott were solid players, but Rodman was the worst player on the team in that series.

[baseline bum]

I think Shaq's the best over their careers, but it's not by as big of a margin a some people here are trying to claim. Shaq had/still has some huge holes in his game that Duncan and Olajuwon never have. Shaq is lazy on defense, and he refuses to guard pick and rolls. I remember a game with Phoenix back in 2002 or 2003 where the Suns went to pick and rolls with Shaq's man for like the last 9 possessions of a game, with wide-open jumpshots every single time. It was pathetic seeing Fisher have to guard both guys every single time. For most of his career Shaq hasn't even been that good of an interior defender. When he was hungry in 2000 and then in the 2001 playoffs, he could control the paint on both ends of the floor.. but other times he looked disinterested.

He's always had a rep as a lazy player. For the years 96-99 his game looked like it had taken a step back. Even Shaq acknowledged that in an interview I saw in the 99 playoffs where he was talking about needing to get back to playing the way he did in 95. Anyone who watched Shaq in 95 knows he had a killer hook shot, which he just let slip away for good when he decided he was only going to be a dunker. He started to regain it late in his Lakers run, but never anything like it was in 95.

You can't poke holes like that in Duncan's game, much less Olajuwon's.

Offensively, it's not even close... O'Neal in a landslide. Overall, I think he's still the best of the 3, but the numbers don't tell O'Neal's worst side.

If O'Neal was born with Kobe Bryant's heart and work ethic he'd have been better than Jordan.

[flipcritic]

the two best arent on your list

the best individual player : wilt the stilt chamberlain,


50 POINTS and 25 REBOUNDS PER GAME AVERAGE ONE YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


I can't comment on Russell because I've never really seen enough footage of him to make an evaluation. And you can't discount that he has more championship rings than fingers (winning them with and without Cousy, Sharman, Havlicek, and other Celtic notables).

But one thing I will say about Wilt is that although people love to tout his scoring record of 100 points, his REAL unbreakable record will be his single game record of 55 rebounds in a game.

Whenever I think about that number (a number teams don't even make anymore), the more I wonder how many chuckers there were back then. :D

Still, to get that amount of many rebounds against players who were familiar with how you and your team played (significantly less number of teams and relatively a few less number of games) is mind-boggling.

And who is next to Wilt for that record? Bill Russell with 51 rebounds.

Those guys were the monsters of their time.

[whottt]

Rodman isn't the one who got killed everynight by Hakeem, which by far and away is the #1 reason the Spurs lost that series. When you let the other team's best player drop 35-40 a night and shoot in the high 50's % wise, you are going to lose 99 times out of 100.

You mean like la



Why does Rodman have 5 rings if he was such a cancer? He was a HUGE part of both the Pistons and Bulls title runs. One of the best rebounders in NBA history and an excellent defender.

Rodman defending guys like Horry on the perimeter is an unrealistic expectation. That would be like chastising Parker for not defending Nowitzki well. When you have the best rebounder in the game you want a guy like that playing down low so he can use his best assets. From that perspective, the Spurs just matched up very poorly with Houston. DRob was no answer for Hakeem and who was there for Rodman to cover. It was probably better to just put Rodman on Hakeem in retrospect.

Blaming that series on him though is crazy when it's DRob who was just lit up like a Christmas tree from the tip of Game 1 to the final buzzer of Game 6.[/QUOTE]



Hakeem didn't outscore David as much as Amare outscored Duncan last year...and we won the series 5-1.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

the two best arent on your list

the best individual player : wilt the stilt chamberlain,


50 POINTS and 25 REBOUNDS PER GAME AVERAGE ONE YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!!!





most successful big man ever: bill russell,


13 CHAMPIONSHIPS, WITH 9 OF THEM IN A ROW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



how do you say that? repeat, three peat, and so on,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

ALL THE WAY TO FRIGGIN NINE!!!!!!!!!!


If a prime David Robinson played in a league with 6-6 unathletic white guys, he would average 75 and 30 for an entire season

[whottt]

Rodman isn't the one who got killed everynight by Hakeem, which by far and away is the #1 reason the Spurs lost that series. When you let the other team's best player drop 35-40 a night and shoot in the high 50's % wise, you are going to lose 99 times out of 100.

You mean like last year when Amare dropped 37 ppg on us with an MVP point guard on his team, and got bounced out of the playoffs in 5 games?




Why does Rodman have 5 rings if he was such a cancer? He was a HUGE part of both the Pistons and Bulls title runs. One of the best rebounders in NBA history and an excellent defender.


Either you didn't watch that series...or you weren't paying attention.

#1. Rodman didn't even play every game in the series.

#2. He was traded away the very next season.


Rodman defending guys like Horry on the perimeter is an unrealistic expectation. That would be like chastising Parker for not defending Nowitzki well. When you have the best rebounder in the game you want a guy like that playing down low so he can use his best assets. From that perspective, the Spurs just matched up very poorly with Houston. DRob was no answer for Hakeem and who was there for Rodman to cover. It was probably better to just put Rodman on Hakeem in retrospect.

Blaming that series on him though is crazy when it's DRob who was just lit up like a Christmas tree from the tip of Game 1 to the final buzzer of Game 6.

It sure would have been better to put Rodman on Hakeem...the Bulls used him on Shaq extensively the very next year.


How often have you seen Shaq asked to guard Duncan or vice versa?

How often do you see Duncan asked to guard Dirk, or Dirk to guard Duncan?


The Spurs stuck Drob out there and basically expected him to win th series by himself...

People may want to say that the Rockets were that stupid, but they weren't, they protected Hakeem, ...only the Spurs were, which is why it took Bob Hill, the rookie head coach that year, 10 years to get another NBA job after the Spurs fired him.


And interesting paradox of that series...David Robinson averaged about 16 FTA per game in that series...

That's basically 8 shooting foulsper game...

[SPARKY]

DRob had some pretty shitty supporting casts to play with during 1989-96. It wasn't surprising to see some of those mid-90s teams rack up a bunch of regular season wins and then get stymied in the postseason.

I will say that people tend to forget what an absolute freak of nature DRob was before his back injury.

[whottt]

Be sure to judge Shaq by that same series...Hakeem put over 30ppg on Shaq too...only Shaq's team, with it's all NBA 1 st team guard and All Star All NBA D 3 time champion PF, got swept.

Shaq was not better David Robinson, Dave beat him like a redheaded step child on father's day every time they were matched up. And did it often against Hakeem too.

Shaq, Hakeem and Drob all played C for the 96 Olympic team...Shaq was the returning starter from the 94 World Championship Team, Drob started, Drob got the most minutes.


Drob was an A list C who played for a minor league organization..and it's just that simple.

[TDfan2007]

1. Shaq - absolutely dominant with the complete big man game. His finals performances were spectacular.

2. TD/Hakeem - both utilize skill over raw power. Both are versatile. Both were at their best when it mattered most (in the clutch and in the playoffs/finals). Hakeem's numbers are better but that's because he was undouble-teamable because of all of the immense talent he had around him (Clyde, Cassel, and even Kenny Smith set a finals 3-point record). Tim is doubled on a constant basis and is extremely unselfish hence the not-so-high scoring average.

3. Ewing - he's better than KG, not these guys though.

4. KG - his numbers are great, but his horrendous clutch performances and lack of playoff success leave much to be desired.

[MadDog73]

1. Shaq - absolutely dominant with the complete big man game. His finals performances were spectacular.

2. TD/Hakeem - both utilize skill over raw power. Both are versatile. Both were at their best when it mattered most (in the clutch and in the playoffs/finals). Hakeem's numbers are better but that's because he was undouble-teamable because of all of the immense talent he had around him (Clyde, Cassel, and even Kenny Smith set a finals 3-point record). Tim is doubled on a constant basis and is extremely unselfish hence the not-so-high scoring average.

3. Ewing - he's better than KG, not these guys though.

4. KG - his numbers are great, but his horrendous clutch performances and lack of playoff success leave much to be desired.

Where's David? 3rd?

Here's my list:

1. Tim Duncan - the best big man currently in the Game. Period. He's Prime now, unlike Shaq who is on the decline, and already has 3 Championships.

2. Shaq (3 Championships, multiple Final appearences and an incredible career PPG avg count for something). If he wins another Ring this year, I'll have to put him over Duncan for now...

3. Hakeem (2 Championships, dominated Shaq and David in 1995, Hakeem's prime.)

4. David Robinson. He's fourth, but it's closer than it looks. 2 Championships, ton of achievements, a great team player, a great athlete and, if he had better team mates during his prime, he would have more titles. But, we're not writing "who would be the best big man", we're writing "Who was in their Prime." And Championships count. Sorry, Whottt, although I totally agree he would get much better recognition if he played for the Lakers.


All these players could beat each other on any given night. They are all incredible athletes, and just to be on this list is an awesome achievement.

Which is why you won't find Ewing or KG on my list.

[DirkAB]

Be sure to judge Shaq by that same series...Hakeem put over 30ppg on Shaq too...only Shaq's team, with it's all NBA 1 st team guard and All Star All NBA D 3 time champion PF, got swept.

Shaq was not better David Robinson, Dave beat him like a redheaded step child on father's day every time they were matched up. And did it often against Hakeem too.

Shaq, Hakeem and Drob all played C for the 96 Olympic team...Shaq was the returning starter from the 94 World Championship Team, Drob started, Drob got the most minutes.


Drob was an A list C who played for a minor league organization..and it's just that simple.

You won't even acknowledge th fact that Shaq wasn't in his prime yet, but Hakeem and Robinson were. You are basing it all on head to head matchups that happened in a relatively short span of time, when in fact only 2 of the 3 guys were in their prime during that time period. Are you forgetting the premise of the thread? Or are you purposely trying to ignore facts?

[DirkAB]

Where's David? 3rd?

Here's my list:

1. Tim Duncan - the best big man currently in the Game. Period. He's Prime now, unlike Shaq who is on the decline, and already has 3 Championships.

2. Shaq (3 Championships, multiple Final appearences and an incredible career PPG avg count for something). If he wins another Ring this year, I'll have to put him over Duncan for now...

3. Hakeem (2 Championships, dominated Shaq and David in 1995, Hakeem's prime.)

4. David Robinson. He's fourth, but it's closer than it looks. 2 Championships, ton of achievements, a great team player, a great athlete and, if he had better team mates during his prime, he would have more titles. But, we're not writing "who would be the best big man", we're writing "Who was in their Prime." And Championships count. Sorry, Whottt, although I totally agree he would get much better recognition if he played for the Lakers.


All these players could beat each other on any given night. They are all incredible athletes, and just to be on this list is an awesome achievement.

Which is why you won't find Ewing or KG on my list.

After all that arguing with me you put Robinson 4th!!!!! WFT???? Did you not believe what you were preaching? Were you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Or were you convinced otherwise?

[MadDog73]

After all that arguing with me you put Robinson 4th!!!!! WFT???? Did you not believe what you were preaching? Were you just arguing for the sake of arguing? Or were you convinced otherwise?


Hello? You should have read my original post (I think it's still there on page 3 or 4, maybe page 2). I had Shaq on top. Whottt convinced me I was wrong, and I was actually debating with myself as I was debating you.

But, uh, no, you did not convince me Shaq was better. If anything, you convinced me Tim was better than Shaq.

As I said, I think it's very, very close, but I'm using Rings as the ultimate sign of greatness, so that's how Shaq edges out David and Hakeem, even though they are closer than you admit.

[SPARKY]

I think the thing that really knocks DRob down was his underdeveloped post game. Hakeem was as close to the prototype for a center as you will find. Hakeem was the complete package. Shaq? Not that great defensively. TD? Ditto. DRob? Had the D, but his O wasn't all it should have been.

[DirkAB]

Robinson in his prime owned Shaq in his prime.

Wasn't until Shaq got Kobe and Robinson got back trouble, that the Spurs had problems with them...

even then, 2003 was a great fucking year.

Man, I really screwed up earlier saying that Shaq > Tim in Shaq's prime... I honestly don't believe that. Tim > Shaq, always and forever.

Flip flopper, make up your mind. So you weren't really debating me so much as you were debating yourself? Wow, I'm speechless.

[MadDog73]

Flip flopper, make up your mind. So you weren't really debating me so much as you were debating yourself? Wow, I'm speechless.


If you were really speechless, you wouldn't say anything. :rolleyes

Come on, BAkriD, you were saying some pretty stupid shit. I had to call you on it. I'm surprised you're not arguing with me that Shaq > Tim...

And I honestly hate putting David down at 4th. And I totally respect those who think otherwise, those who use other criteria to decide that, at his prime, David > Shaq. I'm using a very basic, easy yardstick: Championships won. But that doesn't take into account teams, individual match-ups, points, etc. In other words, it's not the perfect way to decide who's the best, but it's the easiest.

I was going to repost my original post, but it's too damn embarassing. I was arguing Dirk belonged on the list over KG and Ewing, and Dirk hasn't done shit yet...

Crap, I am a flip-flopper! :lol

[Supergirl]

I might be convinced about Hakeem being #1, with Duncan #2 and Shaq #3, but if he is, why did he only win one championship (1995)? Shouldn't the best big man of the last 20 years be able to win more than one championship? I mean, even undersized Ben Wallace was able to win once.

And I don't exactly understand why Hakeem didn't win more, because I saw him play. He was amazingly talented.

[SPARKY]

Yes, why did Hakeem win only one championship?

:hat

[MadDog73]

Snarkiness aside, Hakeem had 2 Championships, 2 Finals MVPs, and 3 Finals appearences.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

What do you guys think of this on wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hakeem_Olajuwon

Olajuwon's Rockets finally won the NBA championship in 1994, in an epic seven-game series against the New York Knicks, the team of one his perennial archenemies, Patrick Ewing. After five games, the Knicks had taken a 3-2 lead, when the Rockets defended a 86-84 lead in the final seconds of the game. In the last second, hot-shooting Knicks guard John Starks (who had scored 27 points until then) went up for a Finals-winning three, but Olajuwon pulled off one of the greatest clutch defensive plays of all time and blocked the shot. In Game 7, Olajuwon posted a game-high 25 points and 10 rebounds, which helped overpower the Knicks, bringing the first pro sports championships to Houston since the Houston Oilers won the AFL championship in 1961.

Hakeem was at the pinnacle of his career. In that year, he became the only player in NBA history to win MVP, Finals MVP and Defensive Player of the Year in the same season. Olajuwon's fame was well-deserved, as the Rockets team was probably one of the most lightly-loaded championship teams of all time. Neither of all the other starters Robert Horry, Otis Thorpe, Vernon Maxwell and Kenny Smith nor Sixth Man Sam Cassell were considered stars, documented by the fact that Hakeem was the only Rockets All-Star player that year.

The Rockets won the title again in 1995, again by stellar play of Olajuwon. Most notoriously, in 1995, when the Rockets faced the San Antonio Spurs in the series, MVP-to-be Robinson was outscored by Olajuwon, 35-24. Even his trusty lieutenant Rodman, a strong defender and one of the leading rebounders of his time, could not help him. Robinson told Life Magazine: "Hakeem? You don't solve Hakeem." The Rockets won every road game that series. In the NBA Finals, the Rockets swept the Orlando Magic, led by a young Shaquille O'Neal. The whole basketball world had waited for the matchup of the two great centers, and it was Olajuwon who outscored O'Neal 33-28 PPG, raising his own regular-season PPG rate by a full 5 points whereas O'Neal's production dropped by one as Olajuwon was again named Finals MVP. As a side note, Hakeem was again the only All-Star Rockets player.

Ignore the crap about "trusty Lt. Rodman", and focus on the fact that Hakeem was the only All-Star for both Rocket Championships...

Hakeem could be considered better than Shaq or Tim from that angle.

Side note, I almost feel sorry for Ewing. Both times he makes it to the finals, he gets beat by the best big men at the time.

[bobbyjoe]

Yes, why did Hakeem win only one championship?

:hat

He won 2 and made the Finals a third time to face the 86 Celtics, considered by many as the best team in NBA history.

Is Tim better than Wilt because he has more titles? You can't use # of rings, which is largely a team accomplishment as a be all and end all, when comparing players.

For instance, Hakeem knocking off the Showtime Lakers 4-1 in 1986 largely due to the way he was dominating an admittedly older Kareem is arguably more impressive than anything any player on this whole list ever did, even though he didnt earn a ring for it.

Do you honestly think Duncan wins Title #1 against the 86 Celtics instead of the 8th seeded Knicks?

Similarly with O'Neal, I dont think you can look purely at the fact he gets his 4th ring this year, hes just that like automatically #1. He's played with some great players in Kobe, Wade, and Penny for a time. That's one factor, but not everything...

[MadDog73]

Then how do we decide who is best?

Avg Points per game? Some kind of amalgamation of points, rebounds, assists, blocked shots, etc?

I conceded Rings is not a prefect system, but until someone else puts out another way to measure "the best", it's the one I personally prefer.

Of course, as always, I'm open to debate.

[MadDog73]

Here's a chart of the career bests for each in the major categories, the highest total for each category will be bolded.



PTS FG% RB A BS S FTA
Shaquille O'Neal 29.7 601 13.9 3.8 3.5 0.9 13.1

David Robinson 29.8 551 13.0 4.8 4.5 2.3 11.6

Patrick Ewing 28.6 567 12.1 3.0 4.0 1.4 7.9

Tim Duncan 25.5 549 12.9 3.9 2.9 0.9 8.5

Hakeem Olajawon 27.8 538 14.0 3.6 4.6 2.6 8.0

Kevin Garnett 24.2 526 13.9 6.0 2.2 1.7 6.1



Here's where they ranked against each other in each of those categories and combined using a lower is better scoring system:



Pts FG% RB A BS S FTA Score
David Robinson 1 3 3 2 2 2 2 = 15

Shaquille O'Neal 2 1 2 4 4 5 1 = 19

Hakeem Olajawon 4 5 1 5 1 1 4 = 21

Patrick Ewing 3 2 5 6 3 4 5 = 28

Tim Duncan 5 4 4 3 5 5 3 = 29

Kevin Garnette 6 6 2 1 6 3 6 = 30






LOL! I am the ultimate Drob homer but I promise I didn't have any preconceived ideas for that simplistic little ranking...and I didn't expect Drob to lead it by that much under any circumstances...


What does it all mean? Well no more than the IBM awards already told us...just that when you judge peak performance in terms of seasonal bests Drob grades out as...well, the best all around C of his era and one of the best in history.

Ironic that he'd the be last guy on that list anyone would rank #1, becauyse of media ignorance...well ok, maybe Ewing.

And BTW...it's seriously annoying that Ewing even gets put on these lists...he doesn't belong on them.


We could do another ranking...we could rank them by number of all star guards they played with...subtracting points for each. I wonder where Drob would finish on that one relative to the other C's...in NBA history. I know where Shaq would finish if we used that system on this list....it's easy to do with Shaq..just count the number of finals he has played in...on each he had at least one AS guard. How many rings did he win without one? No doubt who'd be dead last using that system...Bill Russell and the 2.6 billion AS's he played with.

Here's whottt's system. I don't like it, cause it make Duncan look equal to KG, and I'm not buying that!

[whottt]

My ranking system wasn't intended to be the be all end all statistical ranking system...

By the way, the NBA trophy that was supposed to be a scientiffic evaluation of the player that did the most to help his team win...

Drob is the record holder for winning that trophy, 5 times his first 7 years in the league.


Any statistical evaluation is going to put Drob at the top, and there's no doubt that of all these guys we are discussing, Drob had the greatest single season statistically...93-94.

[whottt]

You won't even acknowledge th fact that Shaq wasn't in his prime yet, but Hakeem and Robinson were. You are basing it all on head to head matchups that happened in a relatively short span of time, when in fact only 2 of the 3 guys were in their prime during that time period. Are you forgetting the premise of the thread? Or are you purposely trying to ignore facts?


Damn...you aren't even that familiar with Shaq are you?


His career highs in blocks, rebounds, and just about everything came as a rookie or his second year in the league.

Shaq's only skill is to offensive foul his way to the basket and slam dunk the ball...his skills have been on the decline since his rookie year.


Drob got two titles going through Shaq in the twilight of his career...and don't give me this DRob had Duncan shit...Shaq had Kobe, and Phil Jackson, and Robert Horry. And Karl Malone, and Gary Payton.

Hakeem had Pippen, and Barkley, and Drexler...

Hakeem had Ralph Sampson healthy, and didn't win a title.

[whottt]

Why don't you guys judge them by their failures?

Like worst finish team record wise?

Which ones didn't get their teams to the playoffs in years in which they were healthy?

How many times did their team not have a winning record?

[whottt]

For instance, Hakeem knocking off the Showtime Lakers 4-1 in 1986 largely due to the way he was dominating an admittedly older Kareem is arguably more impressive than anything any player on this whole list ever did, even though he didnt earn a ring for it. ...


Let's not forget that Hakeem wasn't even on the court and Ralph Sampson hit the shot that put them in the finals...

Don't discount freaking Ralph Sampson, because he was still in the class of the guys we are talking about right now back then.

Don't act like Hakeem did all this by himself.

[DirkAB]

Come on, BAkriD, you were saying some pretty stupid shit. I had to call you on it. I'm surprised you're not arguing with me that Shaq > Tim...



You think I was saying some pretty stupid shit? You're the one who has changed his story twice now, within the same thread, I'm sticking to my story. As far as me arguing about Duncan and Shaq, after carying on for pages out this thread with you over Robinson and Shaq, I might be wasting my time. I'm sure you'll put out a new list later with Shaq ahead of him and tell me that even though I was saying that all along I was still wrong, just like with Robinson. Besides I already addressed that on one of the first pages of this thread, basically said it was very premature.

You seem to think that calling Shaq the most unguardable player of the modern game was stupid, but I stand by it. I've never seen a player able to consistantly dominate double teams and even go through triple teams. Jordan didn't even draw the crowd that Shaq did in his prime, and that isn't saying that he's better.

BTW, that is a pretty stupid yardstick if you ask me, strickly rings. So if that is your yardstick, then where do Bill Cartwright, Luc Longley, and Bill Wennington fit in on that list. Ahead of Hakeem, Ewing, Dirk and KG?

I can't believe that Shaq get's has gotten as little respect as he has in this thread. The guy has only been in the finals 6 out of 14 years in the NBA, and to the Conference finals 9 out of 14 years. Duncan has a ways to go to catch him.

[DirkAB]

Damn...you aren't even that familiar with Shaq are you?


His career highs in blocks, rebounds, and just about everything came as a rookie or his second year in the league.

Shaq's only skill is to offensive foul his way to the basket and slam dunk the ball...his skills have been on the decline since his rookie year.


Drob got two titles going through Shaq in the twilight of his career...and don't give me this DRob had Duncan shit...Shaq had Kobe, and Phil Jackson, and Robert Horry. And Karl Malone, and Gary Payton.

Hakeem had Pippen, and Barkley, and Drexler...

Hakeem had Ralph Sampson healthy, and didn't win a title.

So, Shaq's prime was his first few years in the league? Fuckin' stat geek, only fantasy geek would put stats above actual success. You are a fuckin' idiot. End of story.

[whottt]

You utter dumbfuck, that's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard...

DRob didn't win titles until he could barely walk, were those his best seasons?

Duncan won a title his second year in the NBA, was that his best season?

If Shaq wins the title this year, will this be one of his 4 best seasons?

Stupid fuck.

Don't argue unless you know you what the fuck you are talking about.

You talked shit and ran your mouth stupidly earlier in this thread...it's time for you to back it up.

You need to type David Robinson in google, find out how many years of highschool ball he played, find out where he went to college, why he went to college at that institution, if he was going on a basketball scholarship, then find out how many #1 picks in NBA history didn't recieve a basketball scholarship, then I want you to find out basically how many games of organized basketball he had played by the age of 24, compared to every other player on the original list...

[whottt]

So, Shaq's prime was his first few years in the league? Fuckin' stat geek, only fantasy geek would put stats above actual success. You are a fuckin' idiot. End of story.


BTW, Shaq said the 95 season was the best of his career. Dumbfuck. Only a bigger idiot tries to use team success as a barometer for arguing individual dominance.

[kellog]

Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Ewing
Robinson
Garnett

Bottom 3 never won a title. And before the Spurs posse tries to "round me up". Robinson never won jack until Duncan arrived.

[whottt]

Shaq never won jack until Kobe and Phil arrived, Hakeem never won jack until Casell arrived, so on and so forth...lame argument that reveals a limited understanding of the game.

For the 1 trillionth time...teams win championships, not individual players, as evidenced by Tim Duncan just playing the best playoff series of his career...and losing.

[kellog]

Robinson was there for two and if I remember the talk last year was can Duncan do it
again with out Robinson or another big guy? Of course we all knew he could and he did.

[SPARKY]

He won 2...

I know.

[whottt]

Where would Duncan have been last season without Robert Horry's game 5 performance in Detroit? How quickly they forget...

You know Horry, that same guy that neither Hakeem nor Shaq won titles without...

[Nikos]

Where would Duncan have been last season without Robert Horry's game 5 performance in Detroit? How quickly they forget...

You know Horry, that same guy that neither Hakeem nor Shaq won titles without...

Duncan would still have two rings as the leader and best player of a championship basketball team. Horry would be waiting for someone to set him up for the majority of his three's. Just like he did for most of the 2005 NBA Playoffs.

[strangeweather]

Where would Duncan have been last season without Robert Horry's game 5 performance in Detroit? How quickly they forget...
More importantly, I think, Duncan had Parker and Ginobili in '05, both of which have been All-Stars. Robinson or not, Duncan definitely didn't win '05 solo.

[Nikos]

More importantly, I think, Duncan had Parker and Ginobili in '05, both of which have been All-Stars. Robinson or not, Duncan definitely didn't win '05 solo.

That is an understatement. You can argue that Manu was easily more valuable then Duncan offensively throughout the playoffs. Yeah the offensive started with Duncan, but statistically Manu was extremely efficient and did not score much less than Tim. Tim was better overall cause of his defensive presense and his rebounding -- but offensively Tim had plenty of help, actually he had more then he should have had from Manu (who overachieved big time in that regard).

[whottt]

Cedrick Maxwell and Chauncey Billups >>> Garnett


:rolleyes


Repeat after me...being the best player on the best team does not = being the best player.

Stoudamire tore us up last year, he averaged 37 PPG and outscored Duncan by a similar margin to Hakeem over Drob...

His team lost in 5 games, they were disposed of like tissue paper.


This year, Duncan had a returning cast of a championship team, and got beat by Dirk Nowitzki..

Is Dirk now > Duncan? Or was his team better? The way you answer this question will determine if you are an idiot or not.

[stupid ass logic]
And don't tell me Duncan had beaten Dirk previously, Duncan is 0-1 against Dirk without Drob...

And he's 0-2 against Shaq without Drob.


[/stupid ass logic]

[Nikos]

I like how you put words into my mouth.

Duncan was one of the best players in the league and by far the most productive for his team in the 99 and especially the 03 title. Never said anything about Maxwell, or Billups. Evenso, Billups was barely the best player statistically in the playoffs. He dominated LA in 04, but Rip was their best player in the first 3 series (which were close). Even though at the time and at the moment I feel Billups is superior, he wasn't by far the best player on his team. Spurs in 03 on the other hand, Duncan was by far the best player on his team, most productive throughout the season and the playoffs.

The comparison to Horry and your putting words in my mouth is stupid. Even if you are giving a bunch of hyperbole and being an idiot as usual.

[whottt]

put words into my mouth..


Better words than your father's dick for a change.

[whottt]

Man Drob was the leading scorer and rebounder against Portland...on paper the toughest team we played in 99...

Duncan got held to 5 fucking points in one of those games...



How the fuck is that leading his team to win?

And yes we won...you think..any of David's teams were capable of winning a game where he only scored 10 points? Much less freaking 5.


You think any of David's teams were capable of winning 63 fucking games with him only scoring 18ppg?

His teams weren't even capable of having winniing record without him....

Unlike Shaq, unlike Hakeem, unlike Duncan.

And Duncan wasnt' the one guarding Shaq on those fucking title runs either.

[DirkAB]

You utter dumbfuck, that's the stupidest fucking thing I've ever heard...

DRob didn't win titles until he could barely walk, were those his best seasons?

Duncan won a title his second year in the NBA, was that his best season?

If Shaq wins the title this year, will this be one of his 4 best seasons?

Stupid fuck.



Hey fantasy nerd, don't you suppose that Shaq was actually in his prime from 2000-02? Just because he maybe grabbed 1.5 more rebounds and half a block more doesn't make him a better player, I'd bet only fantasy nerds actually ignore a basketball player's basketball IQ. You know, when he was able to contribute more through the intangibles and through leadership. I figured that a fan of a smart basketball team like the Spurs would know about that, but I guess you don't have to be an intelligent basketball fan to root for an intelligent team. I mean hey, I you don't think that averaging 29.7ppg, 13.6rpg, 3.8apg, and 3bpg while leading his team to 67 wins and the title would qualify as his prime, then tell me when exactly it was. Because I'll guarantee you it wasn't in his first 2 seasons like you implied.


Damn...you aren't even that familiar with Shaq are you?


His career highs in blocks, rebounds, and just about everything came as a rookie or his second year in the league.

Shaq's only skill is to offensive foul his way to the basket and slam dunk the ball...his skills have been on the decline since his rookie year.


I made sure to include that last part to show what your arguement is really about, you hate on Shaq and homer for Robinson. You obviously have no respect for and can't stand Shaq, why because he gets respect that you think your 2 favorite Spurs deserve? Jealousy?

Here is the other half of your arguement:



You need to type David Robinson in google, find out how many years of highschool ball he played, find out where he went to college, why he went to college at that institution, if he was going on a basketball scholarship, then find out how many #1 picks in NBA history didn't recieve a basketball scholarship, then I want you to find out basically how many games of organized basketball he had played by the age of 24, compared to every other player on the original list...

Your butt-love for David Robinson, defending your crush? Seriously, what does any of that have to do with who was better in their prime? Because you think that Robinson was naturally gifted and skilled? Which I do believe, but I'll never believe that a hard worker like Robinson "didn't work hard at developing his game." Fuckin' homeristic bullshit. Because I didn't believe that statement you act like I don't remember him in college, or why he had to sit out a couple of years after getting drafted, more of your self serving bullshit. Honestly, are all 11K of your posts like that? Your shtick, you know that I'm so smart and you're so stupid rant, if that is what you have been doing for 11K posts, I feel sorry for the regulars on this board. Holy obnoxious, like an 8th grader, really.

What is interesting is that I heard some discussion on the radio and television today, very relevant the conversation in this thread. First, this morning on "The Herd," Collin Cowherd started to discuss and rank the greatest centers to ever play the game. His list went: 1. Kareem 2. Wilt 3. Russell 4. Hakeem 5. Shaq. He did happen to mention Ewing and Robinson as pretty much an afterthought, he stated that they were greats that couldn't be passed up by the first pick, since great bigs don't come along often. Then on the pregame to tonights game Dan Patrick, Wilbon, and Mark Jackson were discussing the greatest centers of all-time, I believe Jackson put Shaq 2nd and Wilbon had him 4th. They mentioned Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Kareem, and maybe Hakeem (not sure); again Robinson got no love, not even mentioned as an afterthought. Then to top it off they interviewed Bill Russell right before the game, and they asked him how great Shaq is and where is his place in history. He answered by telling how he had a vote in the 50 greatest players that they announced like ten years back, that Robinson also made, but he said Shaq was in his top ten of all-time. I thought it was pretty interesting considering the debate have going on in here. Especially how former greats and professional sports annalysts gave Shaq such high praise and David Robinson the big squadouche. But you are apparently much smarter than those guys, maybe if you told them about how Robinson "didn't work hard at developing his game," or that he played the saxaphone they would reconsider.

BTW, I don't think you ever answered my question, who is better Duncan or Robinson?

[whottt]

Hey fantasy nerd, don't you suppose that Shaq was actually in his prime from 2000-02? Just because he maybe grabbed 1.5 more rebounds and half a block more doesn't make him a better player, I'd bet only fantasy nerds actually ignore a basketball player's basketball IQ.

And only an idiot thinks Shaq has one...How much of an IQ do you have to have to weigh 400lbs and slam dunk the ball? Which is basically Shaq's game.

To tell you the truth...Shaq is probably a lot like David Robinson in that he never really added anything to his game during his career...although he did develop that baby hook. That's it though.


You know, when he was able to contribute more through the intangibles and through leadership.

If intangibles mean having Kobe rip us for 35 a game...then yeah, I guess he did add that...

Suffice to say, if Drob had been able to add 2 guard often compared to Jordan to his game he'd probably be a lot more respected as well...

Then again, I am probably wasting this point on you, since you think Del Negro is as good as Kobe already.


But basically...you are saying that Shaq this year is better than any of his pre-2000 years...intangibles being what they are and all...and that makes you an idiot.



I figured that a fan of a smart basketball team like the Spurs would know about that, but I guess you don't have to be an intelligent basketball fan to root for an intelligent team. I mean hey, I you don't think that averaging 29.7ppg, 13.6rpg, 3.8apg, and 3bpg while leading his team to 67 wins and the title would qualify as his prime, then tell me when exactly it was. Because I'll guarantee you it wasn't in his first 2 seasons like you implied.

His first year in the league he posted far and away his best block and rebound totals and shot FT's at the second best PCT of his career.

His second year in the league he finished second in the league in scoring, shot the best FG% of his career(up unil last year), pulled down the most offensive boards, still blocked about 3 shots per game.

That year you noted was only his best in points and assists...nothing else.

He didn't even score those points at an efficient rate compared to many of his other years.


In any case, those seasons had a whole lot to do with adding a coach with 6 NBA champions and Kobe getting on the court full time.







I made sure to include that last part to show what your arguement is really about, you hate on Shaq and homer for Robinson. You obviously have no respect for and can't stand Shaq, why because he gets respect that you think your 2 favorite Spurs deserve? Jealousy?


Basically, yeah...plus I am right.

Shaq gets way too much respect and Drob does not get near enough.

Duncan does ok in the respect department.









Your butt-love for David Robinson, defending your crush? Seriously, what does any of that have to do with who was better in their prime? Because you think that Robinson was naturally gifted and skilled? Which I do believe, but I'll never believe that a hard worker like Robinson "didn't work hard at developing his game."


And no doubt you never saw him play...he added nothing to his game during his career and his game developed from him becoming 7 feet tall He wasn't even planning on being a basketball player, and he had a full time job while he was sitting out.


The thing is...what makes you an idiot is you think that's nothing but a compliment...





Fuckin' homeristic bullshit. Because I didn't believe that statement you act like I don't remember him in college, or why he had to sit out a couple of years after getting drafted, more of your self serving bullshit.

You obviously don't, otherwise you'd know it was impossible for him to have put in as much work as the others.


Honestly, are all 11K of your posts like that? Your shtick, you know that I'm so smart and you're so stupid rant, if that is what you have been doing for 11K posts,

Pretty much...I'd say at least 5000 of my posts have been arguing on the behalf of David Robinson in threads exactly like this...rest assured, I know what the fuck I am talking about when it comes to David Robinson.



I feel sorry for the regulars on this board. Holy obnoxious, like an 8th grader, really.

You shouldn't...it's only the true dumbasses stupid enough to argue with me when they haven't checked their info, that get assreamed like you are getting now.


The regs aren't stupid enough to dig their own graves.



What is interesting is that I heard some discussion on the radio and television today, very relevant the conversation in this thread. First, this morning on "The Herd," Collin Cowherd started to discuss and rank the greatest centers to ever play the game. His list went: 1. Kareem 2. Wilt 3. Russell 4. Hakeem 5. Shaq. He did happen to mention Ewing and Robinson as pretty much an afterthought,


And I should give a shit what Collin Cowherd thinks why? I suspect I have seen more games with David Robinson in them than he has.



he stated that they were greats that couldn't be passed up by the first pick, since great bigs don't come along often. Then on the pregame to tonights game Dan Patrick, Wilbon, and Mark Jackson were discussing the greatest centers of all-time, I believe Jackson put Shaq 2nd and Wilbon had him 4th. They mentioned Wilt, Russell, Shaq, Kareem, and maybe Hakeem (not sure); again Robinson got no love, not even mentioned as an afterthought.

And what the fuck are Wilbon and Patrick supposed to know that I don't? Wilbon's an idiot and Patrick is a mouth piece....

You are getting more pathetic by the second.


And who gives a fuck what Mark Jackson thinks...does he have any championships? Did he have to guard David Robinson?







Then to top it off they interviewed Bill Russell right before the game, and they asked him how great Shaq is and where is his place in history. He answered by telling how he had a vote in the 50 greatest players that they announced like ten years back, that Robinson also made, but he said Shaq was in his top ten of all-time. I thought it was pretty interesting considering the debate have going on in here. Especially how former greats and professional sports annalysts gave Shaq such high praise


Well I am pretty sure that Bill Rusell rates Wilt, himself, and Tim Duncan all over Shaq...so if you want to keep using him, by all means go ahead, his claim is based on rings, so I expect him to have that attitude...I want to see him when a championship with Avery Johnson and Vinney Del Nergo as his guards then we'll see if I agree with him.


BTW, I realized bill Russell was pretty much full of shit when I listened to him give a 5 minute disertation on how he could have stopped Shaq...

He said something about not letting him not letting Shaq get close to the basket, it was then I realized he needed to be in a nursing home.



and David Robinson the big squadouche. But you are apparently much smarter than those guys, maybe if you told them about how Robinson "didn't work hard at developing his game," or that he played the saxaphone they would reconsider.

You're the idiot that kneejerked that and automatically assumed it was nothing but a compliment...


BTW, I don't think you ever answered my question, who is better Duncan or Robinson?


Individually?

David fucking Robinson...beyond all doubt. It's not even arguable. It's not even arguable.

More driven to win? Duncan.

And the way they used their influence on the Spurs bears this out...Duncan was fucking gonnamundo if the Spurs didn't put a winner and talent around him...Drob pulled his strings to make sure his buddy AJ had a job as something other than a ballboy.

[Phenomanul]

That settles that...

[DirkAB]

That settles that...

Settles what? He's a fucking royal jerk off, and you're his piss on lacky? All he proved is his hate and complete disrespect for Shaq while verifying that he has a woody for David Robinson.

[MadDog73]

Settles what? He's a fucking royal jerk off, and you're his piss on lacky? All he proved is his hate and complete disrespect for Shaq while verifying that he has a woody for David Robinson.


And all you have is hate for David and a disturbing irrational love for Shaq.

Come on BAkrid, you can do better than that.

Again, we have yet to define what makes a player the "best." whottt seems to totally ignore team play, and that's a problem with his analysis.

I believe Tim is a better player than David, not because Tim is physically stronger than David in his prime, or more skilled than Robinson in his prime (he's not).

But Tim, IMO, will end up as being "greater" than David simply because of what he accomplished. He made the people around him better. He's won 3 Championships, and 3 Finals MVPs... and doesn't look like he's done yet. You can't tell me that doesn't count for something.

But that's what's fun about these discussions, we all have different definitions of what "best" means.

In BAkrids case, best means winning three Championships in a row. That's fine for him, but I'm guessing when Tim retires with more Rings than Shaq, the majority of people will agree that Tim was the best all around player from 1999 - ???. (Shaq's supposed "prime" years).

[leemajors]

i think it's amazing that someone:
a. listens to "the herd"
b. after listening to "the herd", quotes it and uses it for argumentative purposes.

[whottt]

Settles what? He's a fucking royal jerk off, and you're his piss on lacky? All he proved is his hate and complete disrespect for Shaq while verifying that he has a woody for David Robinson.


So not only are you ignorant of David Robinson's career...you are also ignorant of the history of bad blood between Shaq and the Spurs...not to mention seemingly ignorant of the history of bad blood between Shaq and your own purported team.


The more you type, the stupider you look.

[SPARKY]

Some forget what an absolute monster David Robinson was from 1989-96 or what he had as a supporting cast during that period. He was the original Garnett, Stoudemire, or whoever. 'cept he was 100 times the player. DRob kicked the ass of guys like Mourning and, yes, Shaq during that period on a regular basis. If DRob had a teammate like Kobe to play with during that period Spurs fans wouldn't have had to wait until 1999 to see the 1st Larry O'Brien trophy.

DRob as "soft" was a media fiction due to his media persona as the straightlaced Navy man and encouraged by some players in the league of less talent and character (ie Mourning and Jayson Williams). DRob punked those guys on a consistent basis.

For NBA centers since DRob's rookie year of 1989, I'd rate Hakeem higher since he had the more complete offensive game and was solid at every aspect of the game, offensive and defense.

DRob's back was the death knell for him as a superstar.

[DirkAB]

And all you have is hate for David and a disturbing irrational love for Shaq.

Come on BAkrid, you can do better than that.

Again, we have yet to define what makes a player the "best." whottt seems to totally ignore team play, and that's a problem with his analysis.

I believe Tim is a better player than David, not because Tim is physically stronger than David in his prime, or more skilled than Robinson in his prime (he's not).

But Tim, IMO, will end up as being "greater" than David simply because of what he accomplished. He made the people around him better. He's won 3 Championships, and 3 Finals MVPs... and doesn't look like he's done yet. You can't tell me that doesn't count for something.

But that's what's fun about these discussions, we all have different definitions of what "best" means.

In BAkrids case, best means winning three Championships in a row. That's fine for him, but I'm guessing when Tim retires with more Rings than Shaq, the majority of people will agree that Tim was the best all around player from 1999 - ???. (Shaq's supposed "prime" years).

I won't argue with you about how great Duncan is, I know he's great. But, like I've said couple of times in this thread I think it is premature to put him ahead of Shaq or Hakeem, we'll just see what he does in the 2-3 years. Honestly, I think that Duncan is at the end of his prime or close to it so it will be judged on his next couple of years.

I'm not basing it soley on Shaq's or Dunan's 3 rings, that is not why I think that they are better than Robinson, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't play a part in my opinion. I'm looking at how they are able to put their team at the top of the league year after year, they have had great supporting casts but they still have to perform and lead for their teams to be contenders, every year.

Again, I think that Duncan and Shaq have a killer instinct that Robinson didn't. I think that Robinson's a super nice guy, and was never able to get mean and reach down deep enough to stick it to the other team. I don't think he was a leader like the other two players, personally I think Duncan and Avery played that role when they were in contention. I'm sure he was a very positive guy in the lockerroom and was a leader to an extent, but I really don't believe that he ever grabbed the reins, he was passive.

Seriously, why you make the assumption that Duncan will retire with more rings, that is just bias. You have to make it to the finals to get rings, and the last I checked somebody is in the finals right now with a great shot at #4.

[MadDog73]

Drob pulled his strings to make sure his buddy AJ had a job as something other than a ballboy.


Any chance David will show up in Dallas wearing AJ's number? :lol

[whottt]

Again, we have yet to define what makes a player the "best." whottt seems to totally ignore team play, and that's a problem with his analysis.
).


Ohhhhhhhhhh no you didn't....

whottt is not the one ignorning team play...whottt is the one placing a premium on team play.

Ignoring team play is when you say player X is better than player Y because player X won a championship.

That completely ignores team play, it completely fails to take into account the quality of the other players on the teams involved, their impact, and contribution to the victory.

No...I am definitely taking team play into account, and I am definitely making note of the contributions of other players.

You and many others are doing it selectively to justify your rankings, choosing to placing an emphasis on it when you backs up your selection, discounting it when it doesn't, and using it as a penalty still other times.


David Robinson is getting penalized for winning championships, his contributions are being discounted, and others are being judged completely by them...even when David was a part of them.


Case in point...how many of the guys on the original list were teamates...only 2. Duncan and Robinson...it's a penalty for David and a non factor for Duncan, the championship counts nothng in David's favor and everything in Duncan's.

I don't have the double standard here, I am not ignoring the teamates, my rankings aren't schizophrenic depending on which player I like the best, even though readily admit which I do like the best.

It's you guys that are selectively applying it like a bunch of monkeys using that criteria any number of random and incomprehensible ways to justify your opinion.

And furthermore...I am the one that has attempted to use some kind of objective ranking system. Every body else is using their ass. Titles count for some guys not for others, it counts against David that Duncan was his teamate, it doesn't count against Duncan though, Shaq's teamates are ignored as are Hakeem's.


Sorry...but my rankings are somewhat coherent.

[DirkAB]

So not only are you ignorant of David Robinson's career...you are also ignorant of the history of bad blood between Shaq and the Spurs...not to mention seemingly ignorant of the history of bad blood between Shaq and your own purported team.


The more you type, the stupider you look.

So because there is bad blood between the Spurs and Shaq, that means you can't give him respect and accurately rank his place in history? So again, you are a Shaq hater and a Robinson jocker. How is that supposed to make your arguement anymore convincing? Oh, that's right it doesn't, it makes it a joke.

[MadDog73]

Seriously, why you make the assumption that Duncan will retire with more rings, that is just bias. You have to make it to the finals to get rings, and the last I checked somebody is in the finals right now with a great shot at #4.


Did you watch the game last night? Shaq probably cost them that game, with all those missed foul shots, and dropping the ball. Shit, Antoine Walker basically had the same stat line!

I make the assumption, because I can't see Shaq playing too many more years. If you think Tim is on the decline after one of his best post-seasons ever, you have another thing coming.

But, who the fuck knows. I like Tim's chances, and if that's bias, so be it.

BTW, BAkirD, who do you think is the best player this year: Shaq or Tim?

[DirkAB]

Did you watch the game last night? Shaq probably cost them that game, with all those missed foul shots, and dropping the ball. Shit, Antoine Walker basically had the same stat line!

I make the assumption, because I can't see Shaq playing too many more years. If you think Tim is on the decline after one of his best post-seasons ever, you have another thing coming.

But, who the fuck knows. I like Tim's chances, and if that's bias, so be it.

BTW, BAkirD, who do you think is the best player this year: Shaq or Tim?

Of course Duncan is better this year, even on a down year.

So the Heat lost game 1 and you are writting them off for the series? Nice.

[whottt]

So because there is bad blood between the Spurs and Shaq, that means you can't give him respect and accurately rank his place in history? So again, you are a Shaq hater and a Robinson jocker. How is that supposed to make your arguement anymore convincing? Oh, that's right it doesn't, it makes it a joke.



Oh I'll rank his place in history, Drob kicked his his ass head to head, to 6-1 mark, he has winning record against him in the playoffs, he won 2 titles going through him...

His best scoring season is better
His best block season is better
Assists
Steals
All NBA Defensive teams


Lead the league in blocks..did Shaq? No.
Lead the league in rebounds...did Shaq? No.
Lead the league in scoring? Did Shaq? Yeah...but David dropped 71 points in a fucking game or else Shaq would have had 2.

Did Shaq ever finish in the top 5 in blocks boards and steals? No he did not.

Has Shaq ever lead a single post season in blocks and rebounds? No he has not.

So what the fuck has Shaq done? Won 1 more title with a 6 time champion coach and a 2 guard people compare to Jordan? In the Leagues biggest market?


Fuck Shaq,...

[whottt]

By the way this is a Spurs board, you fucking tool, this is not where you come to see Shaq get his props...you damn sure don't whine about it if he isn't.

[MadDog73]

I don't have the double standard here, I am not ignoring the teamates, my rankings aren't schizophrenic depending on which player I like the best, even though readily admit which I do like the best.

It's you guys that are selectively applying it like a bunch of monkeys using that criteria any number of random and incomprehensible ways to justify your opinion.


:lol Damn. Well, sure, I admit I like Tim more, and that probably biases my opinion. I mean, looking at your numbers alone, Tim is worse than Patrick Ewing... there's something wrong there.

So, yeah, there are "intangibles" that I bring to bear. I mean, it is my opinion, after all, not a fact.

I respect your opinion, whottt, and in some ways agree with you that David Robinson was the best player of the 1990's. The fact that he was owned so hard by Hakeem in 1995 hurts him a bit, but it might be unfair to say Hakeem > David based on one series alone.

So, are your personal standings pretty much how the chart shows?

1. Robinson
2. Shaq
3. Hakeem
4. Ewing
5. Duncan
6. KG

If not, why not? What other factors come into play? I'm not being snarky here, I'm really curious.

[fyatuk]

So because there is bad blood between the Spurs and Shaq, that means you can't give him respect and accurately rank his place in history? So again, you are a Shaq hater and a Robinson jocker. How is that supposed to make your arguement anymore convincing? Oh, that's right it doesn't, it makes it a joke.

You just don't give the respect Robinson deserves. The stats of their best 4 consecutive seasons are nearly the same, with Shaq having minimally better scoring and rebounding, and Robinson having much better steals and blocks. Shaq also had people who could draw defense away from him, while Robinson didn't most of the time. Look at how many people had their best years playing with Robinson.

We've already proven Robinson had a much bigger impact on his team than Shaq had on any of his.

Face it. At the very least, the argument is MUCH closer than you admit.

Shoot, Shaq couldn't put up that much better numbers after David killed his back.

[SPARKY]

I find it interesting that DRob's "soft" because he didn't win a title when he didn't have a fellow superstar as a teammate but Shaq isn't despite having not won a title without one.

[MadDog73]

Of course Duncan is better this year, even on a down year.

So the Heat lost game 1 and you are writting them off for the series? Nice.

Off topic, but when you out-rebound, out-assist and make more FGs than your opponent, hold their leading scorer to 16 points, and still lose?

That's not good. I don't know what Miami can do to win this series, but yeah, I'm officially writing them off. But I've been wrong before...

Back on topic:

If Tim > Shaq this year, and Tim is at least = Shaq during Shaq's "prime", then why isn't Tim > Shaq?

[whottt]

I already said I rank Hakeem #1...I don't see how anyone can not rank Hakeem #1.

He whipped everybodies ass head to head...not just David's, but Shaq and Ewing's too. His regular season numbers are sick, and his career numbers across the board are insane.

He's got the offense game, he's got the defensive game, he's got the post season stuff, he's got the freak single season marks, and the freak career makrs. And he won his head to head matchup statistically against just about every mofo on this list...

I hate the freaking Rockets....but there's just not much you can do about it...Hakeem's got it all, no matter what argument you use, none of the others do.

[whottt]

Something else about Shaq...Shaq's one of the worst FT shooters in NBA history...his bigtime FG% isn't as impressive when those FT%'s are factored into it. His FG% is the most impressive thing about him.

I could forgive the FT% if he was dropping 50 a game like Wilt...but he wasn't.

[MadDog73]

I already said I rank Hakeem #1...I don't see how anyone can not rank Hakeem #1.

He whipped everybodies ass head to head...not just David's, but Shaq and Ewing's too. His regular season numbers are sick, and his career numbers across the board are insane.

He's got the offense game, he's got the defensive game, he's got the post season stuff, he's got the freak single season marks, and the freak career makrs. And he won his head to head matchup statistically against just about every mofo on this list...

I hate the freaking Rockets....but there's just not much you can do about it...Hakeem's got it all, no matter what argument you use, none of the others do.


Good call. I'm inclined to agree. To add to that impressive list of accomplishments, he won 2 Finals without another All-star on his team (although he did have Big Shot Rob). Nobody else can say that.

I assume David's number 2 on your list.

Tim > Shaq? (sorry, I know I must seem like a broken record).

[whottt]

You know I really haven't thought much about Tim VS Shaq because Tim never really matched up against Shaq in their head to head matchups and because Tim is classified as a PF. I'd just have to put some thought into that before I commit to which one was better IMO.


I mean this list isn't really a comparison of C's...it's a random comparison of PF's and C"s...I mean if PF's are in it then Barkley and Malone need to be in there...

I'd just have to think about that for a while.

[whottt]

For now I'll say the one thing I am certain of...Duncan>Ewing.

[MadDog73]

For now I'll say the one thing I am certain of...Duncan>Ewing.

:lol Thanks for that!

[DirkAB]

If Tim > Shaq this year, and Tim is at least = Shaq during Shaq's "prime", then why isn't Tim > Shaq?

I never said the bolded part. Honestly, it is hard for me to keep this discussion based soley on their prime, because it is hard to exactly pinpoint somebody's prime. Based on how Duncan played this season and his increasing injury problems, I honestly think that he may already be past his prime, but I would stupid to assume that so I don't, I just suspect. I think that it is also interesting to think about who has had the longest prime, I suppose depending on your defenition of prime, some players have longer primes. Shaq has been very dominant a good number of years out of the 14 he has played in the NBA, I don't know if I see Duncan able to the same. He very well could, we'll just have to wait and see.

[DirkAB]

By the way this is a Spurs board, you fucking tool, this is not where you come to see Shaq get his props...you damn sure don't whine about it if he isn't.

You mean I shouldn't come here expecting people to try and rank people objectively? So Spurs board = Robinson better? You can't give one of the all-time greats respect, pathetic. I'm not asking anybody to like the guy, just admit what he has done.

[strangeweather]

whottt is not the one ignorning team play...whottt is the one placing a premium on team play.

Ignoring team play is when you say player X is better than player Y because player X won a championship.

That completely ignores team play, it completely fails to take into account the quality of the other players on the teams involved, their impact, and contribution to the victory.

No...I am definitely taking team play into account, and I am definitely making note of the contributions of other players.
You're going to take this as me disrespecting David, which is a shame because I frickin' loved David. I'd never lived anywhere with a basketball team or followed basketball before I moved to San Antonio in '87, and I don't know if I'd even be a basketball fan if it hadn't been for David, never mind a Spurs fan.

But here's the thing: ultimately, the legacy of David's prime, pre-injury years is disappointment. The fact that almost none of it is his fault is goddamn tragic, but it doesn't change anything. The Spurs had a lousy team around him, and the coaching wasn't much better. The fact that he got them into the playoffs every year shows just how damn good he was.

But because of the team he had around him, he never had the chance to post the accomplishments that Shaq or Hakeem or Duncan did. He never had a fair chance to prove that he could take down all comers and hoist a Finals MVP trophy. Give him Shaq's Lakers, give him the supporting cast that Hakeem or Duncan had, and I think he might have proved he was better. I'm not sure about Hakeem, but I suspect that with an equal team around him, he could have sent Duncan or Shaq packing in a 7-game series.

But we'll never know that. Like I said, it's tragic, but it's a fact.

Stats are vital if you're building a fantasy team, and they can tell you a lot about a player. But in my opinion, what someone proves they can do in an elimination game and in the road to a title tells you more.

David was a hell of a person, and he swallowed his pride and accepted a supporting role when Tim got here. Without even fucking complaining. No way Tim has a shelf full of Finals MVP trophies without David being right there with him. But Tim is still the one with the shelf full of Finals MVP trophies.

David has a hell of a consolation prize: two rings. That's two more than a lot of guys: Barkley, Malone, Ewing. But he'll never be remembered as the best player on those teams. It sucks, but the fact that it sucks doesn't change anything.

[DirkAB]

I find it interesting that DRob's "soft" because he didn't win a title when he didn't have a fellow superstar as a teammate but Shaq isn't despite having not won a title without one.

Who was Hakeems fellow superstar in '94? Or how about Ewing's, ever? I don't see anybody making excuses for Ewing's supporting cast.

[MadDog73]

Who was Hakeems fellow superstar in '94?

No one, in 1994 or 95. That's why some think Hakeem was the best in his Prime (I'm beginning to be swayed that way myself).



Or how about Ewing's, ever? I don't see anybody making excuses for Ewing's supporting cast.

Hmm, you're right. Ewing is better than Shaq, too! :lol

(Seriously, are you actually saying Patrick Ewing > David Robinson? If not, then what point are you trying to make?)

If the Knicks 1994 roster and the Rockets 1994 Roster both sucked, then obviously Hakeem > Ewing.

It would be nice if prime Robinson played against prime Ewing in the playoffs, but alas, that did not happen.

[MadDog73]

You mean I shouldn't come here expecting people to try and rank people objectively? So Spurs board = Robinson better? You can't give one of the all-time greats respect, pathetic. I'm not asking anybody to like the guy, just admit what he has done.

And we're asking you to look at Robinson objectively, not just the 2000 Robinson, but the Robinson in the 90's.

You act like only Homers or morons would think prime Robinson was better than Shaq, yet you give us no real proof that it's not true!

[DirkAB]

No one, in 1994 or 95. That's why some think Hakeem was the best in his Prime (I'm beginning to be swayed that way myself).



Hmm, you're right. Ewing is better than Shaq, too! :lol

(Seriously, are you actually saying Patrick Ewing > David Robinson? If not, then what point are you trying to make?)

Actually Hakeem had Clyde Drexler in '95, so he had a Robin to his Batman.

As far as Ewing, he had a supporting cast as weak as Robinson's and his team was ever bit as successful until Duncan arrived. I think Robinson is better, but I think it is ridiculous how his supporting cast has taken such a large role in this debate. Why can't the same excuse be applied to both players?

[DirkAB]

You act like only Homers or morons would think prime Robinson was better than Shaq, yet you give us no real proof that it's not true!

Oh yeah, everybody claiming Robinson is better in this thread is a Homer, that is proof enough for me. Do you really think that this would even be a discussion at other boards?

[MadDog73]

Actually Hakeem had Clyde Drexler in '95, so he had a Robin to his Batman.

As far as Ewing, he had a supporting cast as weak as Robinson's and his team was ever bit as successful until Duncan arrived. I think Robinson is better, but I think it is ridiculous how his supporting cast has taken such a large role in this debate. Why same excuse be applied to both players?

I get what you're saying, but it's not a debate, because no one here is saying Ewing > Robinson, Shaq or Hakeem, because no one believes it. I don't even think Knick fans believe it.

A better question would be why do you think Shaq is so great?

Why do you think Shaq > Robinson, in his prime, hands down? Why can't you answer that question?



Oh yeah, everybody claiming Robinson is better in this thread is a Homer, that is proof enough for me. Do you really think that this would even be a discussion at other boards?

I honestly don't think anyone but Spurs fans watched all the regular season games of Robinson in the 90's, so they probably don't have a fair idea of what he was capable of.

Edit: oh, yeah, and Ewing had John Starks, who avg. 19 pts a game in 1994. Of course, he was absolutely horrid in Game 7:
http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19931994.html

Then, after three days of hoopla leading to the decisive Game 7, Olajuwon came through with 25 points, 10 rebounds, seven assists and three blocks as the Rockets posted a 90-84 victory in a game in which Starks, New York's All-Star guard, shot 2-for-18 from the field, including 0-for-11 from three-point range.

I guess all this proves is that one man alone cannot win a Championship...

[DirkAB]

I get what you're saying, but it's not a debate, because no one here is saying Ewing > Robinson, Shaq or Hakeem, because no one believes it. I don't even think Knick fans believe it.

A better question would be why do you think Shaq is so great?

Why do you think Shaq > Robinson, in his prime, hands down? Why can't you answer that question?



I honestly don't think anyone but Spurs fans watched all the regular season games of Robinson in the 90's, so they probably don't have a fair idea of what he was capable of.

Jesus, I haven't answer it? First, I'll say that I'm basing most of it off of watching them compete, to me it is obvious that Shaq was the much more dominant force. He was given more attention defensively than any other player that I've ever seen play, and it still was ineffective for the most part. Second, look at what he accomplished as far as leading his team deep into the playoffs, every year. Conference finals 9 of 14 years, Finals 6 of 14 years, and 3 rings. Look at the aftermath of what happens to the teams that Shaq leaves, including LSU, Orlando, and LA. His numbers don't accurately show his dominance, neither do Duncans. To see the influence that they truly had on the game you needed to watch the games.

A lot of people are pointing to Robinson's "terrible surounding cast," which I think a complete exageration. Although, I do admit he didn't have the surrounding cast that Shaq has had or Dream in '95, so don't act like I'm saying otherwise. For the same reason his team wasn't as successful, a lesser supporting cast, I also think that his stats were overinflated. I don't think that Shaq's stats reflect what he was to his team, although they were great stats, they were probably lesser because he had other players to rely on.

I also think that Shaq's defense is being underestimated, in his prime I think he clogged the lane better than any other center I've seen play. He kept more teams away from the basket out of sheer intimidation, it was amazingly effective. Teams settled for outside shots against the Lakers a lot during Shaq's prime, nobody wanted to take the ball at him. I'm not saying that his defense was better than Robinson or Hakeem, but there was certainally an intimidation factor that kept his oppenents out of the lane more than their was with any other center.

[DirkAB]

Edit: oh, yeah, and Ewing had John Starks, who avg. 19 pts a game in 1994. Of course, he was absolutely horrid in Game 7:
http://www.nba.com/history/finals/19931994.html



Seriously, John Starks? Very good player, but not even close to a superstar and barely an all-star, if he even was one.



I honestly don't think anyone but Spurs fans watched all the regular season games of Robinson in the 90's, so they probably don't have a fair idea of what he was capable of.


But you did watch all of Shaq's, right? WTF is the difference?

[SPARKY]

Starting shooting guard Vinny Del Negro.

Point whottt.

[DirkAB]

Starting shooting guard Vinny Del Negro.

Point whottt.

Rodman, Elliot, and AJ.

[baseline bum]

Why do you keep bringing up Rodman? Anyone who paid any attention in 95 knows Rodman was worthless in the Spurs biggest series in franchise history. Once again, if he was such a great player why was Will Perdue the best the Spurs could get in exchange for him in the days before salary cap limited trades and such? That alone proves he was a huge cancer, and viewed as such by the rest of the NBA also.

[SPARKY]

Rodman, Elliot, and AJ.

Rodman, drunk half the time and the other half fucking Madonna.

Elliott, good enough to make a couple All-Star teams but hardly a second star.

AJ, very good point guard. That's about it.

[whottt]

Jesus, I haven't answer it? First, I'll say that I'm basing most of it off of watching them compete, to me it is obvious that Shaq was the much more dominant force. He was given more attention defensively than any other player that I've ever seen play, and it still was ineffective for the most part. Second, look at what he accomplished as far as leading his team deep into the playoffs, every year. Conference finals 9 of 14 years, Finals 6 of 14 years, and 3 rings. Look at the aftermath of what happens to the teams that Shaq leaves, including LSU, Orlando, and LA. His numbers don't accurately show his dominance, neither do Duncans. To see the influence that they truly had on the game you needed to watch the games.

Damn...you really are a stupid bitch aren't you?

When David Robinson joined the Spurs it was the biggest single season turnaround in NBA history.

When David Robinson was injured, it was the biggest reverse single season turnaround in NBA history.

Period, no ifs ands or butts.

The record was again set when Duncan joined the Spurs, the catch is, David Robinson also returned.


The top two single season turn arounds in NBA history happend when he came or came back to a team, the biggest reverse happened when he got injured....

And AJ, and Vinny, and Sean, were all here when that reverse record happened.

Don't even bring up this shit...

You want to talk college ball? The fucking Navy...got look at their history without David Robinson...and then look at it with him.





Robinsons's stats are over inflated?

You're an idiot.

Without a doubt, you are the biggest idiot I have encountered on a message board.

[whottt]

Hakeem didn't even make the fucking playoffs the year he had AJ on his team.

Hakeem went down and his team went on a 19 game winning streak...

David Robinson went down and it was worst single season turnaround in NBA history.

[whottt]

Mario Elie was the backup 2 guard on the 95 champion Rockets...he started on the Spurs 99 championship.

That 94 Rocket team set a record for most 3 pointers made in a season.

[baseline bum]

Whottt, chilll... I gotta hear this guy tell me how much of a help Rodman was in that '95 series when he was jacking up threes, getting killed by Horry in transition, and refusing to enter games.

[DirkAB]

Hakeem didn't even make the fucking playoffs the year he had AJ on his team.

Hakeem went down and his team went on a 19 game winning streak...

David Robinson went down and it was worst single season turnaround in NBA history.

So is Robinson better than Hakeem? That seems to be your point.

[whottt]

Here's David Robinson hanging 52 fucking points on 2 time DPOY and Shaq buttbuddy Alonso Mourning..



Charlotte (111) @ San Antonio (124) 01/16/93


Charlotte (111)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Johnson,Larry F 42 6-16 5- 8 1- 3 1-14 4 1 0 3 2 18
Newman,Johnny F 14 1- 1 5- 6 0- 0 1- 1 0 0 0 0 4 7
Mourning,Alonzo C 32 9-20 6-10 0- 0 2- 5 0 0 4 2 5 24
Bogues,Muggsy G 34 3- 7 5- 6 0- 0 1- 6 7 0 0 3 2 11
Gill,Kendall G 40 6-16 4- 6 0- 0 1- 4 2 4 0 1 1 16
Gattison,Kenny 15 0- 1 1- 2 0- 0 0- 2 2 0 1 0 5 1
Wingate,David 21 3- 6 1- 2 0- 1 3- 3 0 2 1 1 0 7
Curry,Dell 26 7-12 0- 0 1- 1 0- 1 2 1 0 1 1 15
Bennett,Tony 14 4- 6 2- 3 2- 3 0- 0 2 1 0 0 2 12
Hammonds,Tom 2 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0- 2 0 0 0 0 0 0
TOTALS 240 39-85 29-43 4- 8 9-38 19 9 6 11 22 111

FG %: .459 FT %: .674 Three %: .500 Team Rebs: 17 Team TOs: 0


San Antonio (124)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Ellis,Dale F 38 9-17 0- 0 3- 6 2- 6 4 0 0 1 2 21
Carr,Antoine F 15 5- 6 2- 3 0- 0 0- 2 2 0 3 0 6 12
Robinson,David C 40 20-28 11-15 1- 2 3-14 3 0 7 2 3 52
Johnson,Avery G 32 2- 4 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 12 1 0 1 4 4
Del Negro,Vinny G 36 6-14 2- 2 0- 1 2- 7 3 1 0 3 5 14
Reid,J.R. 24 0- 6 4- 4 0- 0 1-10 0 0 0 0 4 4
Daniels,Lloyd 17 1- 6 0- 0 1- 3 0- 0 5 0 0 1 2 3
Smith,Larry 14 1- 1 0- 0 0- 0 2- 3 1 0 0 0 3 2
Wood,David 11 1- 2 1- 2 0- 0 0- 1 1 0 1 2 2 3
Mack,Sam 13 3- 8 3- 4 0- 2 2- 4 0 0 0 1 1 9
TOTALS 240 48-92 23-30 5-14 12-47 31 2 11 11 32 124

FG %: .522 FT %: .767 Three %: .357 Team Rebs: 9 Team TOs: 1

Charlotte 21 28 23 39 -- 111
San Antonio 30 31 30 33 -- 124

Officials: JIM CAPERS, TOMMY NUNEZ, DAN CRAWFORD
Attendance: 16057 Time of Game: 2:08




Here's David Robinson wiping his ass with Shaq:



Orlando (93) @ San Antonio (96) 03/19/93


Orlando (93)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Bowie,Anthony F 31 6-12 0- 0 0- 2 0- 4 4 0 0 1 1 12
Tolbert,Tom F 36 8- 9 1- 1 1- 1 0- 5 1 0 1 0 4 18
O'Neal,Shaquille C 32 7-11 1- 5 0- 0 3-13 1 1 2 8 5 15
Anderson,Nick G 40 9-20 4- 6 2- 6 0- 7 3 3 0 1 3 24
Green,Litterial G 42 5-11 2- 2 0- 0 1- 2 8 0 1 4 3 12
Royal,Donald 30 4- 9 2- 2 0- 0 4- 5 4 2 1 2 2 10
Kite,Greg 18 1- 3 0- 2 0- 0 2- 6 1 0 0 0 6 2
Kerr,Steve 6 0- 1 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 1 0 0 0 0 0
Turner,Jeff 5 0- 1 0- 0 0- 0 0- 2 0 0 0 0 1 0
TOTALS 240 40-77 10-18 3- 9 10-44 23 6 5 16 25 93

FG %: .519 FT %: .556 Three %: .333 Team Rebs: 7 Team TOs: 0


San Antonio (96)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Elliott,Sean F 35 4-10 7- 9 0- 1 2- 4 2 0 0 1 0 15
Reid,J.R. F 18 4- 8 2- 2 0- 0 1- 5 1 1 0 2 4 10
Robinson,David C 43 11-20 8-12 0- 0 1- 7 4 3 1 2 3 30
Ellis,Dale G 24 3-12 0- 0 0- 5 0- 3 1 0 1 1 0 6
Johnson,Avery G 40 5-12 0- 0 0- 0 2- 2 9 2 0 3 4 10
Carr,Antoine 31 6-11 2- 3 0- 0 1- 8 4 0 1 2 4 14
Daniels,Lloyd 18 3- 6 0- 0 1- 1 4- 7 1 0 1 0 0 7
Anderson,Willie 17 1- 1 2- 2 0- 0 0- 1 4 1 1 1 1 4
Del Negro,Vinny 7 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Smith,Larry 5 0- 1 0- 0 0- 0 1- 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Mack,Sam 2 0- 1 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0 0 0 2 1 0
TOTALS 240 37-82 21-28 1- 7 12-38 26 7 5 14 17 96

FG %: .451 FT %: .750 Three %: .143 Team Rebs: 8 Team TOs: 0

Orlando 26 17 24 26 -- 93
San Antonio 23 19 29 25 -- 96

Officials: DARELL GARRETSON, TOMMY NUNEZ, KEN MAUER
Attendance: 16057 Time of Game: 0:00




And again...Who can't guard who again?



San Antonio (94) @ Orlando (90) 02/28/93


San Antonio (94)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Reid,J.R. F 25 5- 9 2- 4 0- 0 1- 8 0 1 1 1 4 12
Ellis,Dale F 40 7-15 2- 2 1- 5 1- 9 0 1 0 3 2 17
Robinson,David C 44 9-20 5- 7 0- 0 3-16 7 4 3 2 3 23
Daniels,Lloyd G 36 3-14 0- 0 0- 1 6-11 1 3 1 2 5 6
Johnson,Avery G 35 0- 8 6- 8 0- 0 0- 2 13 2 0 0 2 6
Carr,Antoine 25 11-15 1- 2 0- 0 4- 7 0 0 1 1 3 23
Anderson,Willie 15 0- 2 0- 0 0- 0 0- 1 1 1 0 0 1 0
Del Negro,Vinny 18 3- 4 1- 2 0- 0 0- 1 1 0 0 3 3 7
Smith,Larry 2 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
TOTALS 240 38-87 17-25 1- 6 15-55 23 12 6 12 23 94

FG %: .437 FT %: .680 Three %: .167 Team Rebs: 7 Team TOs: 2


Orlando (90)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Tolbert,Tom F 24 2- 6 2- 4 1- 1 2- 4 1 0 0 0 1 7
Bowie,Anthony F 28 1- 6 1- 2 0- 0 1- 4 2 1 0 3 1 3
O'Neal,Shaquille C 34 8-18 3- 5 0- 0 2-13 2 0 3 3 4 19
Anderson,Nick G 38 10-26 4- 6 6-10 3- 7 0 0 0 3 2 30
Skiles,Scott G 32 4-11 0- 0 2- 5 1- 4 7 0 0 2 5 10
Scott,Dennis 13 2- 7 0- 0 0- 2 0- 1 0 0 0 1 1 4
Kite,Greg 9 0- 1 0- 0 0- 0 0- 4 0 0 1 0 1 0
Royal,Donald 21 0- 1 5- 6 0- 0 3- 4 4 2 1 2 0 5
Williams,Brian 12 1- 4 0- 0 0- 1 2- 6 0 2 2 0 2 2
Kerr,Steve 17 1- 2 4- 4 0- 0 1- 2 3 0 0 1 2 6
Turner,Jeff 12 1- 4 2- 2 0- 0 1- 2 0 0 0 0 2 4
TOTALS 240 30-86 21-29 9-19 16-51 19 5 7 15 21 90

FG %: .349 FT %: .724 Three %: .474 Team Rebs: 8 Team TOs: 0

San Antonio 27 26 20 21 -- 94
Orlando 19 21 23 27 -- 90

Officials: DAN CRAWFORD, EDDIE F. RUSH, TOMMIE WOOD
Attendance: 15151 Time of Game: 2:15


Here's David Robinson sodomizing Shaq and impregnating him with you...


San Antonio (94) @ Orlando (84) 12/03/93


San Antonio (94)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Rodman,Dennis F 39 2- 6 0- 0 0- 0 8-23 4 1 1 0 4 4
Anderson,Willie F 41 7-19 2- 3 0- 1 1- 2 9 0 0 2 2 16
Robinson,David C 45 6-17 11-14 0- 0 3-11 10 4 2 3 5 23
Ellis,Dale G 35 8-14 4- 6 2- 3 1- 4 0 2 0 2 3 22
Knight,Negele G 37 6-11 2- 3 0- 0 2- 3 1 1 1 2 5 14
Whitney,Chris 1 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0- 1 0 0 0 0 0 0
Reid,J.R. 12 2- 7 4- 4 0- 0 1- 2 1 1 0 2 3 8
Del Negro,Vinny 16 2- 5 0- 0 0- 1 0- 1 0 0 0 0 1 4
Floyd,Sleepy 14 1- 1 1- 2 0- 0 1- 2 0 0 0 0 0 3
TOTALS 240 34-80 24-32 2- 5 17-49 25 9 4 11 23 94

FG %: .425 FT %: .750 Three %: .400 Team Rebs: 11 Team TOs: 0


Orlando (84)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Anderson,Nick F 35 5-12 0- 0 1- 2 1- 8 2 1 0 1 2 11
Turner,Jeff F 22 3- 5 1- 2 0- 0 0- 1 0 1 0 0 2 7
O'Neal,Shaquille C 43 9-17 3- 6 0- 0 5-19 1 1 3 4 3 21
Hardaway,Anfernee G 34 4- 9 1- 1 1- 3 1- 3 4 2 0 1 2 10
Skiles,Scott G 35 4-10 5- 6 0- 3 0- 0 7 0 0 6 4 13
Kite,Greg 5 0- 0 0- 2 0- 0 0- 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
Scott,Dennis 25 4-12 1- 2 1- 7 0- 2 3 0 0 1 4 10
Royal,Donald 23 1- 3 4- 8 0- 0 3- 3 2 1 1 0 4 6
Bowie,Anthony 18 3- 5 0- 0 0- 0 1- 1 0 0 0 0 1 6
TOTALS 240 33-73 15-27 3-15 11-37 19 6 4 13 23 84

FG %: .452 FT %: .556 Three %: .200 Team Rebs: 9 Team TOs: 0

San Antonio 30 22 20 22 -- 94
Orlando 23 18 21 22 -- 84

Officials: J CRAWFORD, Ron Olesiak, D JONES
Attendance: 15291 Time of Game: 2:11


That's called a triple double....


Here's DRob nearly putting a quadruple double on Shaq:





Orlando (103) @ San Antonio (111) 03/06/94


Orlando (103)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Avent,Anthony F 21 2- 4 0- 0 0- 0 2- 4 0 0 1 0 2 4
Scott,Dennis F 41 8-14 1- 2 4- 6 1- 3 6 1 2 1 3 21
O'Neal,Shaquille C 39 11-20 10-15 0- 0 3-11 2 1 0 3 5 32
Hardaway,Anfernee G 37 4-19 3- 4 1- 3 3- 6 2 2 0 4 2 12
Anderson,Nick G 35 7-12 0- 0 1- 4 0- 3 5 0 0 0 1 15
Rollins,Tree 12 1- 1 1- 2 0- 0 1- 3 2 0 0 1 1 3
Skiles,Scott 11 2- 3 0- 0 2- 2 0- 0 2 0 0 1 1 6
Krystkowiak,Larry 22 2- 4 0- 0 0- 0 3- 4 1 1 0 1 4 4
Bowie,Anthony 13 3- 4 0- 0 0- 0 0- 1 0 0 0 0 0 6
Royal,Donald 9 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0 0 0 0 2 0
TOTALS 240 40-81 15-23 8-15 13-35 20 5 3 11 21 103

FG %: .494 FT %: .652 Three %: .533 Team Rebs: 9 Team TOs: 0


San Antonio (111)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Ellis,Dale F 41 9-13 1- 2 3- 5 3- 6 4 1 0 0 1 22
Reid,J.R. F 27 2- 9 2- 4 0- 0 0- 3 2 0 1 0 1 6
Robinson,David C 40 14-26 8- 8 0- 0 5-13 7 3 6 4 4 36
Del Negro,Vinny G 25 6-11 0- 0 0- 1 2- 3 3 0 0 1 1 12
Anderson,Willie G 42 7-15 0- 0 0- 0 2- 6 8 1 0 1 3 14
Rodman,Dennis 27 3- 5 0- 0 0- 0 5-10 0 0 0 2 2 6
Carr,Antoine 25 3- 6 2- 2 0- 0 0- 1 0 0 0 1 4 8
Floyd,Sleepy 13 1- 3 5- 7 0- 0 0- 3 4 1 0 0 2 7
TOTALS 240 45-88 18-23 3- 6 17-45 28 6 7 9 18 111

FG %: .511 FT %: .783 Three %: .500 Team Rebs: 8 Team TOs: 0

Orlando 36 25 25 17 -- 103
San Antonio 30 24 20 37 -- 111

Officials: Tommie Wood, Mike Mathis, Joe Forte
Attendance: 34325 Time of Game: 2:26


Here's Shaq finally breaking through for the win...too bad, he again was toilet paper for David Robinson.




San Antonio (104) @ Orlando (110) 03/12/95


San Antonio (104)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Rodman,Dennis F 36 3- 9 5- 6 0- 0 8-23 5 0 0 4 5 11
Elliott,Sean F 37 8-12 2- 4 2- 3 0- 1 3 2 0 1 3 20
Robinson,David C 35 12-21 10-13 0- 2 3-12 2 0 1 2 2 34
Johnson,Avery G 39 7-11 4- 5 0- 0 0- 0 6 2 0 4 3 18
Del Negro,Vinny G 32 1- 5 4- 4 0- 1 0- 1 4 1 0 1 1 6
Person,Chuck 26 3-10 0- 0 1- 6 0- 3 0 0 0 1 4 7
Cummings,Terry 13 1- 6 0- 0 0- 0 3- 4 0 1 1 1 4 2
Rivers,Doc 10 0- 3 2- 2 0- 1 0- 2 1 0 1 0 1 2
Reid,J.R. 12 2- 7 0- 0 0- 0 2- 3 0 0 0 1 3 4
TOTALS 240 37-84 27-34 3-13 16-49 21 6 3 15 26 104

FG %: .440 FT %: .794 Three %: .231 Team Rebs: 9 Team TOs: 0


Orlando (110)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Avent,Anthony F 28 1- 3 2- 2 0- 0 1- 3 2 1 1 0 3 4
Scott,Dennis F 27 3-13 0- 0 1- 8 0- 2 1 1 0 2 2 7
O'Neal,Shaquille C 42 10-24 8-11 0- 0 5-13 3 1 1 2 4 28
Hardaway,Anfernee G 44 13-22 3- 4 2- 2 1- 3 6 1 0 3 3 31
Anderson,Nick G 43 7-12 4- 5 3- 5 2- 7 5 2 0 2 4 21
Turner,Jeff 20 2- 4 0- 0 0- 0 1- 2 1 0 0 0 6 4
Rollins,Tree 5 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Shaw,Brian 26 3- 6 8- 8 1- 2 1- 6 6 1 2 1 5 15
Bowie,Anthony 5 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 2 1 0 1 0 0
TOTALS 240 39-84 25-30 7-17 11-36 26 8 4 11 27 110

FG %: .464 FT %: .833 Three %: .412 Team Rebs: 10 Team TOs: 0

San Antonio 25 28 24 27 -- 104
Orlando 22 25 30 33 -- 110

Officials: HUGH EVANS, MIKE CALLAHAN, JACK NIES
Attendance: 16010 Time of Game: 2:38



About statistical abbreviations




Here's a real gem:




San Antonio (112) @ LA Clippers (97) 04/24/94


San Antonio (112)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Cummings,Terry F 22 2-10 1- 2 0- 0 6-12 2 0 0 1 0 5
Rodman,Dennis F 36 4- 5 0- 0 0- 0 3-17 3 1 1 2 1 8
Robinson,David C 44 26-41 18-25 1- 2 4-14 5 0 2 8 2 71
Del Negro,Vinny G 26 1- 3 0- 0 0- 0 0- 2 6 4 0 2 2 2
Daniels,Lloyd G 25 2- 7 0- 0 0- 2 0- 2 1 2 1 3 2 4
Knight,Negele 24 3- 6 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 5 0 1 0 2 6
Floyd,Sleepy 23 1- 5 1- 4 1- 2 1- 5 6 0 0 4 3 4
Carr,Antoine 24 2- 2 0- 0 0- 0 0- 1 0 1 0 0 1 4
Reid,J.R. 12 2- 6 2- 2 0- 0 3- 4 0 0 0 1 2 6
Haley,Jack 4 1- 2 0- 0 0- 0 0- 1 0 0 0 0 2 2
TOTALS 240 44-87 22-33 2- 6 17-58 28 8 5 21 17 112

FG %: .506 FT %: .667 Three %: .333 Team Rebs: 10 Team TOs: 0


LA Clippers (97)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Wilkins,Dominique F 21 6-17 3- 4 1- 3 0- 1 2 1 0 1 2 16
Vaught,Loy F 25 7-10 2- 2 0- 0 2- 4 1 0 0 0 4 16
Spencer,Elmore C 5 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0- 1 0 0 1 1 2 0
Jackson,Mark G 16 1- 6 0- 0 0- 1 2- 3 6 2 0 0 0 2
Harper,Ron G 20 2- 6 0- 0 0- 0 0- 3 0 1 1 4 0 4
Martin,Bob 20 1- 2 0- 0 0- 0 0- 4 1 0 2 1 4 2
Outlaw,Charles 27 2- 5 0- 0 0- 0 3- 6 0 1 3 1 6 4
Dehere,Terry 28 10-17 4- 4 2- 3 2- 3 2 1 0 2 0 26
Grant,Gary 14 2- 4 0- 0 0- 0 0- 1 4 2 0 2 0 4
Ellis,Harold 27 6-15 2- 4 0- 1 1- 6 0 2 0 0 5 14
Williams,John 19 1- 4 0- 0 0- 2 0- 4 2 2 0 2 2 2
Woods,Randy 18 1- 9 4- 6 1- 8 2- 3 5 2 0 2 3 7
TOTALS 240 39-95 15-20 4-18 12-39 23 14 7 16 28 97

FG %: .411 FT %: .750 Three %: .222 Team Rebs: 8 Team TOs: 0

San Antonio 20 17 32 43 -- 112
LA Clippers 19 16 32 30 -- 97

Officials: HOLLINS, MIDDLETON, FINE
Attendance: 16005 Time of Game: 2:09

That's Drob becoming the second and only other Center besides Wilt Chamberlain to ever score 70 points or more in a game...

Hakeem didn't do it.
Shaq didn't do it.

Here something else...




Detroit (96) @ San Antonio (115) 02/17/94


Detroit (96)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Elliott,Sean F 44 9-21 2- 2 0- 1 0- 2 2 0 0 0 0 20
Mills,Terry F 43 7-17 3- 5 1- 3 3-16 2 0 1 4 6 18
Anderson,Greg C 22 3- 5 1- 2 0- 0 6- 8 0 2 0 0 3 7
Thomas,Isiah G 14 2-10 1- 2 0- 0 1- 1 1 0 0 1 3 5
Houston,Allan G 38 4-14 2- 2 0- 2 0- 1 2 0 0 2 1 10
Hunter,Lindsey 34 12-24 2- 3 0- 3 3- 7 2 2 0 2 4 26
Jones,Charles 29 1- 2 0- 0 0- 0 3-10 0 0 0 0 6 2
Macon,Mark 10 4- 4 0- 0 0- 0 1- 2 0 2 0 1 3 8
Liberty,Marcus 6 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
TOTALS 240 42-97 11-16 1- 9 17-47 9 6 1 10 26 96

FG %: .433 FT %: .688 Three %: .111 Team Rebs: 7 Team TOs: 0


San Antonio (115)

POS MIN FGM-FGA FTM-FTA TGM-TGA ORB-TRB AS ST BL TO PF TP
Ellis,Dale F 35 9-15 0- 0 1- 6 0- 2 1 1 0 1 1 19
Rodman,Dennis F 42 0- 1 1- 2 0- 0 4-22 5 1 0 1 4 1
Robinson,David C 43 12-20 10-17 0- 0 5-10 10 2 10 1 1 34
Del Negro,Vinny G 28 9-17 5- 5 0- 1 1- 7 3 0 0 1 1 23
Anderson,Willie G 23 2- 4 2- 2 0- 0 0- 1 2 0 2 0 3 6
Reid,J.R. 27 4- 8 5- 6 0- 0 4- 5 1 0 0 0 0 13
Knight,Negele 15 2- 5 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 1 2 1 2 1 4
Floyd,Sleepy 20 4- 8 2- 2 0- 1 0- 0 6 0 0 1 2 10
Daniels,Lloyd 3 0- 1 0- 0 0- 1 0- 1 2 1 0 0 0 0
Haley,Jack 2 1- 2 0- 0 0- 0 0- 0 0 0 0 0 0 2
Whitney,Chris 2 1- 2 0- 0 1- 2 0- 0 0 0 0 0 0 3
TOTALS 240 44-83 25-34 2-11 14-48 31 7 13 7 13 115

FG %: .530 FT %: .735 Three %: .182 Team Rebs: 6 Team TOs: 0

Detroit 20 27 21 28 -- 96
San Antonio 22 28 31 34 -- 115

Officials: Hue Hollins, Ronnie Nunn, Jim Kinsey
Attendance: 19451 Time of Game: 2:02

That's called a quadruple double..did Shaq do that? Hakeem did...



David Robinson...he also won a DPOY, a scoring title, and an MVP, making he and Michael Jordan the only guys in NBA history to do that.

He also lead the league in blocks board and scoring making he and Kareem, the only 2 to do so.

He was the first Center in 30 years to win a scoring title.

His 2.34 steals per game is second all time only to Hakeem in steals by a Center.

Only 6 Centers in NBA history have ever averaged more than the 4.8 assists per game. None of them are named Shaq or Hakeem.


He was first play in the NBA history to finish in the top 5 in board blocks and steals.

The first player in NBA history to make an ALL NBA Team and All Defensive team in hist first 7 years.

The only player besides Kareem to lead a post season in blocks and boards.

One of the only Non Celtic players to win the first game of his career and the last in the NBA finals, playing his entire career for the same team.

A record 5 IBM trophies.

He has a winning record Hakeem.
A winning record against Shaq.
A winning record against Barkley.
A winning record against Michael Jordan.

Etc...against Ewing.

He is one 4 players in NBA history to never ever finish lower than second in his division, the other 3 are Larry Bird, Dr, J and Magic Johnson.

His 65%+ shooting PCT in the 91 playoffs is higher than any series PCT by Shaq, Kareem, Wilt, Duncan, Hakeem, etc...he is tied for the NBA record in post season single game FG% with 1000%...did that one in his last playoffs.


So you tell me you fucking dickhead...why is Shaq better...he didn't beat him when he was in his prime, he didn't beat him when he was old...

Tell me dickhead...other than the fact that you have your head permanently stuck up Shaq's ass...why is Shaq better.


Prove it, or shut the fuck up.

[fyatuk]

So is Robinson better than Hakeem? That seems to be your point.

Nice change of subject...

[DirkAB]

Whottt, chilll... I gotta hear this guy tell me how much of a help Rodman was in that '95 series when he was jacking up threes, getting killed by Horry in transition, and refusing to enter games.

You keep refering to that one series as if it negated every other contribution he made in San Antonio in 2 years. Putting him on Horry was a bad coaching decision, so why put that on him. On teams with strong leadership he was a great player, maybe the best role player ever, but that wasn't Robinson's strong suit. Maybe you should be bitching more about the leadership and coaching.

[DirkAB]

Nice change of subject...

Nice post!!! I like how you pop in and out of this thread without ever really getting too involved, let everybody else try and do what you can't.

[baseline bum]

You keep refering to that one series as if it negated every other contribution he made in San Antonio in 2 years. Putting him on Horry was a bad coaching decision, so why put that on him. On teams with strong leadership he was a great player, maybe the best role player ever, but that wasn't Robinson's strong suit. Maybe you should be bitching more about the leadership and coaching.

Of course it negated everything he did. That was the year the Spurs had the cast to win it all, and he fucking quit on the team. What do ou mean putting him on Horry was bad coaching? Would it have been better coaching to sit him on the bench? Who would you have him guard? Drexler? Kenny Smith or Cassel?

He didn't do much to shut Malone down in 94 either, but that's forgivable because the effort was there.... but he didn't give a fuck the one time they had a real shot, and that will forever be Rodman's legacy in San Antonio.

Rodman was an amazing role player on Detroit because he was a jack of all trades. As soon as he went psycho and got caught sleeping in his truck with a shotgun he became one-dimensional and all about himself.

[fyatuk]

Nice post!!! I like how you pop in and out of this thread without ever really getting too involved, let everybody else try and do what you can't.

Well, I figured it was pointless since basically you just ignored any post that had any REAL information that conflicted with your point of view.

I already proved that if Shaq > Robinson (which I don't believe), then the difference is minimal.

Plus, you already admitted you like saying crap like that to keep people talking. So I figured I'd just sit back and watch the show.

[whottt]

Maybe if Shaq was more of a leader he wouldn't have gotten swept out of the playoffs his first 6 times in the playoffs. Ohh that's a real bad ass there...his nickname ought to be the Big Broom.


Shaq's first year in the NBA - 41-41 no playoffs...hey , we finally found some things Shaq did that David didn't...mis the playoffs, fail to have a winning record. :tu

Second year - Swept in the first round.

Third year - Swept in the finals.

Fourth year - Swept again.

Fith year - managed to go out 1-4

Sixth year - Sweep city gain baby.

Seventh year - Fuck...swept again.


Shaq has to hold the record for getting swept...

That sixth team that got swept had Kobe, Fox, Horry, Fisher, And Van Exel, Cambell, and Eddie Jones...

That's a fucking all star team...swept like a punk ass bitch.


That seventh team had David Robinson on it...a broken David Robinson and Shaq struggled to break 20 ppg in that series.


C'mon...prove he was better.

[fyatuk]

Maybe if Shaq was more of a leader he wouldn't have gotten swept out of the playoffs his first 6 times in the playoffs. Ohh that's a real bad ass there...his nickname ought to be the Big Broom.

Shaq missed the playoffs his first year, swept out in the first round in his second, swept in the finals third, swept in conferance finals fourth, then lost but not swept the next.

So you're just plain wrong there.

[DirkAB]

So you tell me you fucking dickhead...why is Shaq better...he didn't beat him when he was in his prime, he didn't beat him when he was old...

Tell me dickhead...other than the fact that you have your head permanently stuck up Shaq's ass...why is Shaq better.


Prove it, or shut the fuck up.

Do you really think that you have proven shit? Seriously, why is his name never brought up when they talk about the greatest big man to ever play the game? Yet Shaq is in the middle of that conversation every single time? Is it because only you truly appreciate what Robinson did? That is how you act. I'll tell you why he isn't in the conversation, because he doesn't belong there.

For all the stats he put up he never lead a team to a championship, never even lead a team to the finals. He choked his ass off in the playoffs every fucking year until a real leader like Duncan came along and he could finally play second fiddle to one trophy and a role player to another. You act like Hakeems team in '94 was so stacked, bullshit it was, they had him and a bunch of good role players. Too bad that the Jazz took Robinson and co. out with no problems before they had their chance, because the Spurs had a better chance of beating the Rockets that year than in '95, but they underachieved. What about '96? Same thing? The Jazz shouldn't have taken the Spurs out both those years, Spurs underachieved following Robinson's lead.

[whottt]

He was swept every year until his 5th year in the league, then he got swept twice more...

If he'd been in the Western Conference...he'd have been swept before the finals.


You know how many times David Robinson was swept..in his prime? None.

[whottt]

Do you really think that you have proven shit? Seriously, why is his name never brought up when they talk about the greatest big man to ever play the game? Yet Shaq is in the middle of that conversation every single time? Is it because only you truly appreciate what Robinson did? That is how you act. I'll tell you why he isn't in the conversation, because he doesn't belong there.

For all the stats he put up he never lead a team to a championship, never even lead a team to the finals. He choked his ass off in the playoffs every fucking year until a real leader like Duncan came along and he could finally play second fiddle to one trophy and a role player to another. You act like Hakeems team in '94 was so stacked, bullshit it was, they had him and a bunch of good role players. Too bad that the Jazz took Robinson and co. out with no problems before they had their chance, because the Spurs had a better chance of beating the Rockets that year than in '95, but they underachieved. What about '96? Same thing? The Jazz shouldn't have taken the Spurs out both those years, Spurs underachieved following Robinson's lead.


This would be the same Jazz team that Swept Shaq's All Star Laker Team?

Right? Hypocrite bitch?

[whottt]

I've had just about enough of you. You seriously need to come up with some facts to back up your stance, and you need to do it soon.

[DirkAB]

He was swept every year until his 5th year in the league, then he got swept twice more...

If he'd been in the Western Conference...he'd have been swept before the finals.


You know how many times David Robinson was swept..in his prime? None.

It is a little easier to avoid being swept when you only play 1 or 2 series each playoffs. But when you are constantly making it to the conference finals and the finals, you tend to run into better teams, and you also have 3 and 4 chances of being swept, as opposed to only having one chance of being swept.

[ShoogarBear]

It is a little easier to avoid being swept when you only play 1 or 2 series each playoffs. But when you are constantly making it to the conference finals and the finals, you tend to run into better teams, and you also have 3 and 4 chances of being swept, as opposed to only having one chance of being swept.:lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao :lmao

Back to AA with you.

[DirkAB]

This would be the same Jazz team that Swept Shaq's All Star Laker Team?

Right? Hypocrite bitch?

All-star team, yeah. Fisher, Fox, Horry, Campbell, and Kobe's second year. Nice all-star team.

[whottt]

What have you proved cocksucker?

I've posted boxscores, head to head winning records, post season and otehrwise...

Statistical analysis of individual highs, biggest turn around record wise in NBA history...never failing to have a winning record or miss the post season.

The teams you keep bringing up as evidence of Drob's choking and softness swept Shaq in the same post seasons, with Shaq having mutiple all stars on his team.

He had the better season highs in every category but FG% and RB...he won 2 titles against him, including when he was broken down old man and Shaq had Kobe fucking Bryant.

What have you proved douche bag?

This is most pathetic pro Shaq argument I have ever seen.

I want you explain to me how you watched them compete in the mid 90's and concluded Shaq was more dominant when Drob was hanging triple double and near quads on his ass , beating him every time, outscoring him every time.


Tell me bitch...now, or the shut the fuck up. Why is Shaq better? Prove it.

[whottt]

All-star team, yeah. Fisher, Fox, Horry, Campbell, and Kobe's second year. Nice all-star team.


Drob won a title with Duncan in Duncan's second year.

Eddie Jones was an All Star...as was Nick Van Exel.....those guys in addition to the core of the three time champion Lakers.

[baseline bum]

All-star team, yeah. Fisher, Fox, Horry, Campbell, and Kobe's second year. Nice all-star team.

Nick Van Exel - 1998 All-Star
Eddie Jones - 1998 All-Star
Kobe Bryant - 1998 All-Star

I'm not trying to argue that David > Shaq (that's insane), but recognize Robinson's 95 cast wasn't championship level without Rodman showing up. The only cast he ever had that I would consider a title-good was the one he had in 1990 with Strickland/Anderson/Elliott (rookie)/Cummings and Brickowski off the bench. The cast that was split up by Red McCombs being too cheap to pay Strick, and TC blowing out his knee.

[whottt]

It is a little easier to avoid being swept when you only play 1 or 2 series each playoffs. But when you are constantly making it to the conference finals and the finals, you tend to run into better teams, and you also have 3 and 4 chances of being swept, as opposed to only having one chance of being swept.



douche...those teams swept Shaq in the same season they didn't sweep Drob. And Shaq's carrying mutiple All Stars on his freaking team.

[fyatuk]

It is a little easier to avoid being swept when you only play 1 or 2 series each playoffs. But when you are constantly making it to the conference finals and the finals, you tend to run into better teams, and you also have 3 and 4 chances of being swept, as opposed to only having one chance of being swept.

Just so you know, between 93/94 and 98/99, Shaq played in 15 playoff series, the Robinson played in 12 (would have been more if Robinson didn't blow out his back).

Shaq was swept 5/15 series, or 1/3 of the time.

Robinson was never swept in that time frame.

In fact, Robinson was only swept twice in 26 series in his carreer.

Just thought I'd point that out.

[whottt]

Here's the anatomy of soft choking David Robinson:

This is the 4th quarter breakdown of game 1 of the 95 WCF


4th Quarter:
Robinson gets 2 inside. Hou misses on 3 attempts. Robinson
drains the baseliner. Offensive foul on C Jones. 74-72 Hou
10:29. Robinson to the cutting A Johnson for the over the
shoulder layup. A Johnson strips Cassell, A Johnson to Reid for
2. 5 second inbounds violation on Hou. Into Robinson for the
layup. Olajuwon misses. A Johnson misses. Elie drains the 3.
78-77 SA 8:23. Rivers 1 of 2 - Olajuwon's 5th. Brown misses
driving. Robinson misses. Cassell misses the open 3. Into Reid
for the layup. Drexler misses driving. Rivers 1 of 2 - Hou in
the penalty. 82-77 SA 6:38. Olajuwon gets 2 up close. C Jones
ties up Robinson. SA controls. 3 second violation on Rodman.
Elie misses the 3. Elliott 1 of 2. Olajuwon to C Jones for the
slam. Offensive foul on Robinson. 83-81 SA 4:37. Olajuwon
spins in for the layup. Robinson 1 of 2. Drexler 2 of 2.
Robinson 2 of 2. Olajuwon 2 of 2. Robinson gets the layup
inside. 88-87 SA 2:51. Elie swishes the 3. Elliott drives for
the layup. Olajuwon misses, A Johnson takes it all the way for
the layup. Cassell 2 of 2. Rivers misses the 3, Rodman
rebounds, misses, rebounds, and calls timeout. 92-92 1:13.
Rodman misses inside, ahead to (slight over pass) Drexler who
misses the layup. Robinson 1 of 2. 45.9 seconds. Rivers strips
Olajuwon, Elliott is fouled on the break. Misses both. Timeout
Hou. 93-92 SA 24.1 seconds. Hou passes the ball around and
Horry steps in for 17 foot jumper. Timeout SA. 6.5 seconds.
Elliott misses. Game over.



Final: Houston 94, San Antonio 93.
Player of the game: Clyde Drexler with 25 points and 12
rebounds.
Houston leads the series 1-0.



Drob was 4-5 from the field in that quarter, 4-6 from the FT line...12 points on 80% shooting from the field.

Hakeem was 2-4 from the field...2-2 from the FT line...

Does that look like a choke to you, idiot?

Note this sequence again:

Elliott is fouled on the break. Misses both. Timeout
Hou. 93-92 SA 24.1 seconds. Hou passes the ball around and
Horry steps in for 17 foot jumper. Timeout SA. 6.5 seconds.
Elliott misses. Game over.[/quote]


Elliott - misses both
Horry - steps in for 17 foot jumper.


This >>>>Elliott - misses both,........................ is the choke.
This >>>>Horry - steps in for 17 foot jumper......is the clutch. His only freaking made shot of the game.

But Drob's the soft bitch...and teamates don't matter. Yeah that was just a fluke by Robert Horry...never heard from him again, did we.

[whottt]

In fact, Robinson was only swept twice in 26 series in his carreer.

.


No, he was only swept once.
The other time he was injured and didn't play in the series.

[fyatuk]

No, he was only swept once.
The other time he was injured and didn't play in the series.

the 91-92 one? I just checked and he's missed the last 14 games of the regular season that year...

He missed some playoff games in 2001-02 as well.

[whottt]

the 91-92 one? I just checked and he's missed the last 14 games of the regular season that year...

Right..and all of the playoffs.


He missed some playoff games in 2001-02 as well.

Yeap...that'd be the floating particle condition he had in his back that would leave him with no feelings in his legs and basically ended his career...he missed all of the Seattle Series and could not even get his feet off the ground in the Laker series...He announced his retirement.

But...not before ending Shaq's dynasty run the next year, being Shaq's primary defender, with that same floating particle condition...and a torn meniscus in his knee...soft indeed.

[fyatuk]

Yeap...that'd be the floating particle condition he had in his back that would leave him with no feelings in his legs and basically ended his career...

But...not before ending Shaq's dynasty run the next year, being Shaq's primary defender, with that same floating particle condition...and a torn meniscus in his knee...soft indeed.

Thanks, 91-92 was way back when for me (I started watching the Spurs the year before Robinson arrived). Have a hard time remembering that far back.

But yeah, Robinson was a warrior, just not vocal about it. No one should ever call Robinson soft.

Back problems royally suck, especially when they start messing with your legs (speaking from experience).

[baseline bum]

Right..and all of the playoffs.



Yeap...that'd be the floating particle condition he had in his back that would leave him with no feelings in his legs and basically ended his career...he missed all of the Seattle Series and could not even get his feet off the ground in the Laker series...He announced his retirement.

But...not before ending Shaq's dynasty run the next year, being Shaq's primary defender, with that same floating particle condition...and a torn meniscus in his knee...soft indeed.

I was at game 3 of that series in 2002. You wouldn't believe the ovation David got when he was introduced in the starting lineup. I seriously thought his career was over. I never expected him to come back so quickly to face Shaq when he couldn't feel his fucking legs two days before. That'll always be one of my favorite moments in Spurs history, loss or not.

[bobbyjoe]

Nick Van Exel - 1998 All-Star
Eddie Jones - 1998 All-Star
Kobe Bryant - 1998 All-Star

I'm not trying to argue that David > Shaq (that's insane), but recognize Robinson's 95 cast wasn't championship level without Rodman showing up. The only cast he ever had that I would consider a title-good was the one he had in 1990 with Strickland/Anderson/Elliott (rookie)/Cummings and Brickowski off the bench. The cast that was split up by Red McCombs being too cheap to pay Strick, and TC blowing out his knee.

Rodman averaged 17 rebounds a game in 32.0 minutes a game in 1995. I think any big man on this list (Shaq, Hakeem, TD, etc) would kill to have a PF who would take care of the dirty work inside and pound the glass to the tunes of 17 boards a freakin night in just 32 minutes so that they could roam defensively and wreak havoc. Rodman also made first team all-nba defense in 95.

I think Duncan, Shaq, or Hakeem give SA at least one title if they were at pivot instead of DRob in the 90s.

The Spurs post-season history with DRob as #1 option was really poor. In 91, a shocking upset to the 7 seed Warriors after winning the division.

Swept 3-0 by the Suns in 92. The pre-Barkley Suns, mind you.

93: Loss 4-2 to the Barkley Suns. This year the Suns were clearly a better team and no shame in losing to them.

94: Loss 3-1 to the Jazz. Spurs come in as the higher seed. DRob plays horribly against Malone, Spurs fold. Let's spare the supporting cast is the onl reason, because the cast was good enough for SA to have a better seed and record than Utah, who was a team REALLY weak at Center.

95: Hakeem. I won't fault the Spurs here because they did get to the WCF for the only time in the DRob era and hakeem wasn't going to beat by anyone this year.

96: Destroyed 4-2 by Utah. Again, Robinson plays poorly against a team with no C and the Spurs for the fourth time in 6 years lose in the playoffs to a team they had a better seed than.

In which of these years did David Robinson play like a champion in the playoffs? We saw Duncan in 99 and 03 just will the Spurs to victory in the postseason. He was unbelievable. Same for Hakeem in 86, 94, 95. Same for Shaq in 00,01,02 and even 95 when they were the only team from 91-98 to beat MJ in the playoffs. When did DRob ever deliver the goods like that in the playoffs? That's what separates him from these other guys. He never hit that gear.

[bobbyjoe]

Jesus, I haven't answer it? First, I'll say that I'm basing most of it off of watching them compete, to me it is obvious that Shaq was the much more dominant force. He was given more attention defensively than any other player that I've ever seen play, and it still was ineffective for the most part. Second, look at what he accomplished as far as leading his team deep into the playoffs, every year. Conference finals 9 of 14 years, Finals 6 of 14 years, and 3 rings. Look at the aftermath of what happens to the teams that Shaq leaves, including LSU, Orlando, and LA. His numbers don't accurately show his dominance, neither do Duncans. To see the influence that they truly had on the game you needed to watch the games.

A lot of people are pointing to Robinson's "terrible surounding cast," which I think a complete exageration. Although, I do admit he didn't have the surrounding cast that Shaq has had or Dream in '95, so don't act like I'm saying otherwise. For the same reason his team wasn't as successful, a lesser supporting cast, I also think that his stats were overinflated. I don't think that Shaq's stats reflect what he was to his team, although they were great stats, they were probably lesser because he had other players to rely on.

I also think that Shaq's defense is being underestimated, in his prime I think he clogged the lane better than any other center I've seen play. He kept more teams away from the basket out of sheer intimidation, it was amazingly effective. Teams settled for outside shots against the Lakers a lot during Shaq's prime, nobody wanted to take the ball at him. I'm not saying that his defense was better than Robinson or Hakeem, but there was certainally an intimidation factor that kept his oppenents out of the lane more than their was with any other center.

Disagree with that completely. Hakeem and Robinson were the 2 Centers aside from Russell who just really dominated the paint defensively in a way O'Neal never came CLOSE to doing.

O'Neal was a lazy defender for the most part who committed stupid reach in fouls instead of using his size to jump and alter/block shots. He also was very weak on pick n roll defense most of his career.

O'Neal really had trouble staying with guys like Hakeem and Robinson who were quicker. He was lucky that in his prime the C position had been flushed down the toilet so he had no one to make him work at the defensive end.

I'd say that O'Neal was easily the weakest defensive player on this thread's original list. Easily. He's #2 overall on the list behind Hakeem IMO but defensively dead last.

[NBA Junkie]

Shaquille O'Neal
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajawon
Kevin Garnett

I'll go with Olajuwon since he owned three of those guys in key playoff match-ups. Garnett is not a true big man in the sense that you're referring to and Duncan only crossed paths with Olajuwon after "Dreams" skills were starting to erode. Also, out of all these players, Olajuwon was equal or better than the aforementioned players in overall skills.

[whottt]

Rodman averaged 17 rebounds a game in 32.0 minutes a game in 1995.
He didn't even play in every game.

Why was he traded the following offseason?


I think any big man on this list (Shaq, Hakeem, TD, etc) would kill to have a PF who would take care of the dirty work inside and pound the glass to the tunes of 17 boards a freakin night in just 32 minutes so that they could roam defensively and wreak havoc. Rodman also made first team all-nba defense in 95.

Quite an accomplishment considering he missed 35 something games.

He didn't do anything but rebound and chuck up some stupid 3 pointers in that series.




I think Duncan, Shaq, or Hakeem give SA at least one title if they were at pivot instead of DRob in the 90s.

And I think those guys with the exception of Duncan, struggle to even make the playoffs with those teams, keep in mind, Hakeem usually was only good for about 45-49 wins during the regular seasons...even when he had a former 20-10 All Star Bigman in Otis Smith.


The Spurs post-season history with DRob as #1 option was really poor. In 91, a shocking upset to the 7 seed Warriors after winning the division.

Ever looked at Drob's numbers from that series?

He wasn't the reason we lost, that was flat out his best post season series.


Swept 3-0 by the Suns in 92. The pre-Barkley Suns, mind you.


No, he injured his thumb with 3 weeks left in the season and didn't play again.






94: Loss 3-1 to the Jazz. Spurs come in as the higher seed. DRob plays horribly against Malone, Spurs fold. Let's spare the supporting cast is the onl reason, because the cast was good enough for SA to have a better seed and record than Utah, who was a team REALLY weak at Center.

Ahhh again we see David penalized for his ability to carry a crap team...

Take a look at the roster for the 94 Jazz, then look at the roster for the 94 Spurs...

That was easily the worst Spur Team David Robinson ever had.





95: Hakeem. I won't fault the Spurs here because they did get to the WCF for the only time in the DRob era and hakeem wasn't going to beat by anyone this year.

96: Destroyed 4-2 by Utah. Again, Robinson plays poorly against a team with no C and the Spurs for the fourth time in 6 years lose in the playoffs to a team they had a better seed than.

In which of these years did David Robinson play like a champion in the playoffs? We saw Duncan in 99 and 03 just will the Spurs to victory in the postseason. He was unbelievable. Same for Hakeem in 86, 94, 95. Same for Shaq in 00,01,02 and even 95 when they were the only team from 91-98 to beat MJ in the playoffs. When did DRob ever deliver the goods like that in the playoffs? That's what separates him from these other guys. He never hit that gear.


And all those teams were quite simply not that good and David's only crime was being an amazing enough player that played hard every night, to get his shit team in way way over their heads.

I call it John Elway syndrome...

Remember John Elway used to get his teams to the Superbowl only to get destroyed by the NFC winner?

We finally figured out that those teams were pretty crappy without John Elway and when he finally got a decent team, he started winning these Superbowls.


I mean does anyway say John Elway wasn't good enough to win before he had Terrel Davis?

Before that he was just capable of carrying bad teams further than they needed to be.

[whottt]

94 Jazz:

Name G Min Pts PPG FGM FGA FGP FTM FTA FTP 3PM 3PA 3PP REB RPG AST APG STL BLK TO
Karl Malone
Jeff Malone
John Stockton
Jeff Hornacek
Tom Chambers
Felton Spencer
Tyrone Corbin
Jay Humphries
David Benoit
Bryon Russell
Stephen Howard
Walter Bond
Chad Gallagher
John Crotty
Darren Morningstar
Luther Wright
Dave Jamerson
Aaron Williams
Sean Green




94 Spurs:

Players Name
David Robinson
Dale Ellis
Willie Anderson
Vinny Del Negro
Negele Knight
J.r. Reid
Terry Cummings
Antoine Carr
Lloyd Daniels
Dennis Rodman
Sleepy Floyd
Chuck Nevitt
Jack Haley
Chris Whitney


You seriously think the Spurs should have taken out the Jazz that year?

Keep in mind...that was the post season Rodman showed up late to the games because he was trying to get into Madonna's pants. Pretty sure he was supended for a game in that series and to quote head coach John Lucas(fired after that season):

With the things Rodman was pulling, we needed to be out of the playoffs.

That was David best season individually...a season better than any season by any other C on this list...

And it was followed by the worst post season performance of his career?

Why? Because you are looking at it in reverse...

It's in the playoffs when a teams deficiencies will be exposed.
Like our inability to guard bigger SF was exposed this year.

Vinny Del Negro, was the point guard on that team....

[whottt]

Let's take a look at Hakeem's post season fairings:

84-85: Lost to the lower seeded Utah Jazz first round in 5 games.

85-86: Made it to the NBA Finals, lost to the Celtics.

86-87: Lost to the lower seeded Sonics second round in 6 games.

87-88: Lost to the Dallas Mavericks in the first round 4 games.

88-89: Lost to the Supersonics in the first round 4 games.


Keep in mind Hakeem's PG for a lot of these latre 80's early 90's series was Sleepy Floyd...the back up PG on that 94 Spurs team you think should have beaten the Jazz...in his second to last season.

89-90: Lost in the first round to the Lakers in 4 games.

90-91: Swept in the first round by the Lakers.

91-92: Missed the playoffs Missed the playoffs Missed the playoffs Even with the great Avery Johnson as his point guard.

92-93: After needing 5 games to get by the Clippers, lost in the second round in 7 games.

93-94 Champions
94-95 Champions

95-96: Swept by the Sonics in the second round.

96-97: He and Drexler are joined by Charles Barkley and lose to the Jazz...

So Drob is supposed to beat the freaking Jazz with Vinny Del Negro as his Poing Guard when Hakeem can't even do it with Barkley and Drexler?

When Shaq can't even do it with the core of his 3 time champs and Eddie Jones and NVE thrown in for good measure?

97-98: Drexler, Barkley and Olajuwon lose to the Jazz in the first round.

98-99:Hakeem and Barkley are joined by Scottie Pippen and procedeed to get bounced by the Lakers in the frist round...Spurs go on to sweep that Laker team.



I mean how many times did Hakeem lose in the first round?

Exclusing the year when he failed to make the playoffs...

There was one year where he missed 20 something games and the Rockets still made the playoffs...in fact they went on the longest winning streak in team history courtesy of Kenny Smith and Mr. Mean...while he was injured.

[whottt]

I counted seven first round exits for Hakeem..

One failure to even make the playoffs, and 4 sweeps. Including a couple in the first round.


And don't even tell me the Rockets weren't attempting to surround Hakeem with talent...the Spurs were trying to do it as cheaply as possible.


Houston cut AJ, they didn't evne make the playoffs when he was there, and he was the best PG David ever had.


Elliott? He had one kidney...and the Rockets nixed an Elliott for Horry trade. He also wasn't exactly from the Horry school of clutch prior to the MDM.


Hakeem's sitting there paired up with 2 of the 50 greatest and getting swept.

[whottt]

Those 93-95 Rockets teams...had playyas. Dont even say they didn't.

Freaking Sam Cassell. And he played some big games during those title runs.

Mario Elie - Started on the Spurs 99 champion.

Robert Horry - Went on to start or be the main 6th man on 4 other NBA champions.

Clyde Drexler - One of the 50 greatest of all time. Dude got his teams to the finals before even joining the Rockets.

Big Otis Smith - All Star PF.


Earlier - Ralph Sampson
Later - Barkley and Pippen.

Drob never had anyone the caliber of those guys, even the mid career versions of those guys...and when he got someone, Duncan...he won 2 titles with him.

And he made it out of the first round and got swept a hell of a lot less too.

[SPARKY]

whottt's right about the abyssmal supporting casts DRob had.

As for the upset by the Warriors, that was a case of the Spurs having no shooters to capitalize on the opportunities DRob created while Run TMC rendered the Spurs' interior D worthless.

Jazz? The bane of the Spurs and a few other teams in that era. Malone had a Hall of Fame point guard feeding him assists. Who was DRob's Hall of Fame teammate at that point? Of course, people want to knock DRob for not getting it done without a future Hall of Famer in TD. Well, has Shaq won without Kobe?

I'd also add a special word for the "coaching" that DRob enjoyed during his first seven seasons in the league. John Lucas and Bob Hill feature prominently. Enough said.

[whottt]

Anyone know if Bakrid is finished getting his bleeing asshole stitched up yet?

I miss him.

[baseline bum]

Rodman averaged 17 rebounds a game in 32.0 minutes a game in 1995. I think any big man on this list (Shaq, Hakeem, TD, etc) would kill to have a PF who would take care of the dirty work inside and pound the glass to the tunes of 17 boards a freakin night in just 32 minutes so that they could roam defensively and wreak havoc. Rodman also made first team all-nba defense in 95.

Why does regular-season performance mean anything for Rodman? We're judging these guys by how they performed in the playoffs, and Rodman quit on the team in '95... ie, the Rodman situation was every bit as bad as Martin this season or Vernon Maxwell in '95, only the Spurs knew they had a legit championship contender that had no chance without him. They couldn't just kick him off the team like the Nuggets and Rockets did with their cancers.

No one has ever answered me when I've asked why the Spurs couldn't get anything better than Will Perdue for Rodman if Rodman wasn't considered a huge cancer by the whole NBA. Everyone saw his act in '95 and thus his trade value was almost zero.

I can't understand bringing up the 91-92 loss to Golden State.... David averaged 26 ppg on 69% shooting with 13.5 rebounds, 3.75 blocks, and 1.5 steals per game.


Swept 3-0 by the Suns in 92. The pre-Barkley Suns, mind you.

:lmao
In 91-92 he was injured and didn't play a minute of the playoffs, so does that tell you anything about the strength of his supporting cast? Seriously, David Robinson sucks because his supporting cast got swept by the pre-Barkley Suns when he couldn't play.

[bobbyjoe]

Let's take a look at Hakeem's post season fairings:

84-85: Lost to the lower seeded Utah Jazz first round in 5 games.

85-86: Made it to the NBA Finals, lost to the Celtics.

86-87: Lost to the lower seeded Sonics second round in 6 games.

87-88: Lost to the Dallas Mavericks in the first round 4 games.

88-89: Lost to the Supersonics in the first round 4 games.


Keep in mind Hakeem's PG for a lot of these latre 80's early 90's series was Sleepy Floyd...the back up PG on that 94 Spurs team you think should have beaten the Jazz...in his second to last season.

89-90: Lost in the first round to the Lakers in 4 games.

90-91: Swept in the first round by the Lakers.

91-92: Missed the playoffs Missed the playoffs Missed the playoffs Even with the great Avery Johnson as his point guard.

92-93: After needing 5 games to get by the Clippers, lost in the second round in 7 games.

93-94 Champions
94-95 Champions

95-96: Swept by the Sonics in the second round.

96-97: He and Drexler are joined by Charles Barkley and lose to the Jazz...

So Drob is supposed to beat the freaking Jazz with Vinny Del Negro as his Poing Guard when Hakeem can't even do it with Barkley and Drexler?

When Shaq can't even do it with the core of his 3 time champs and Eddie Jones and NVE thrown in for good measure?

97-98: Drexler, Barkley and Olajuwon lose to the Jazz in the first round.

98-99:Hakeem and Barkley are joined by Scottie Pippen and procedeed to get bounced by the Lakers in the frist round...Spurs go on to sweep that Laker team.



I mean how many times did Hakeem lose in the first round?

Exclusing the year when he failed to make the playoffs...

There was one year where he missed 20 something games and the Rockets still made the playoffs...in fact they went on the longest winning streak in team history courtesy of Kenny Smith and Mr. Mean...while he was injured.

So when Robinson has a great individual series against the Warriors but the team loses, it's clearly not a knock against him but when Hakeem scores 37.5 ppg and rips 16.8 boards a game and shoots 58% against the Mavs in 88 playoffs, it's an indictment against him? Or when Hakeem shoots 62% in 87 playoffs averaging nearly 30 and 11 but they lose to Seattle, it's again an indictment against him individually? Yeah, that's real consistent.

For the record, Hakeem did beat the Jazz twice in both playoff runs. The first one was without any 2nd all star on his team whereas Malone had Stockton. When Barkley came in 97-98, Hakeem and CBark were both well past their prime along with Pippen. That team was a joke with all 3 in their late 30's.

A David Robinson team never beat the Jazz in the playoffs (0-3 with neither series ever being close). If the Spurs were that awful as you claim, why did they win more games than Utah in the regular season both years? Guys like Elliott, Rodman, and AJ weren't stiffs. Rodman won 5 titles without David, Elliott was an all-star and AJ was a solid 13 and 10 guy who shot a high % from the field.

Furthermore if you think Robinson's supporting casts were so awful, you can't simultaneously laud his statistical prowess in this discussion because it's a well documented fact that stars on crap teams have padded stats.

David Robinson shot an absolutely pathetic 41% from the field in the 94 playoffs against Utah. That's on no one but him. You can't honestly tell me that had nothing to do with the loss. During the season he was at 30 ppg and over 50% shooting and come playoffs he dropped to 20.0 ppg and 41%.

He then shot 44.6% after his MVP year in 95 in the playoffs and shot 46.5% in 93 despite 6 games against the Centerless SUns.

Overall, Robinson's production in points and shooting % dropped significantly in the playoffs. This didnt happen with O'Neal, Hakeem, and Duncan. It's not as though Robinson was playing great in the playoffs and SA was still losing (ala this postseason where TD killed the Mavs and played like a beast, but it still wasn't enough). The only year you can make the argument that Robinson played like a superelite in the playoffs was against the undersized Warriors (and in the 4th Q of Game 6 in 2003 Finals).

[bobbyjoe]

whottt's right about the abyssmal supporting casts DRob had.

As for the upset by the Warriors, that was a case of the Spurs having no shooters to capitalize on the opportunities DRob created while Run TMC rendered the Spurs' interior D worthless.

Jazz? The bane of the Spurs and a few other teams in that era. Malone had a Hall of Fame point guard feeding him assists. Who was DRob's Hall of Fame teammate at that point? Of course, people want to knock DRob for not getting it done without a future Hall of Famer in TD. Well, has Shaq won without Kobe?

I'd also add a special word for the "coaching" that DRob enjoyed during his first seven seasons in the league. John Lucas and Bob Hill feature prominently. Enough said.

Who was Duncan's HOF assist man/guard in 2003? In 99? In 2005?

Who was Shaq's future HOF compadre in 95 or this year?

Who was Hakeem's future HOF compadre in 94?

Shaq didnt win without Kobe but he got to the NBA Finals in his 3rd year in 95. He took out Jordan's bulls that year in the playoffs. He's made the Finals this year without Kobe.

Robinson never made the Finals as the #1 option on a team. He was to Duncan what Kobe was to Shaq or Pippen to MJ (a 2nd banana).

If you ask NBA GM's if they would want DRob or Shaq in their primes, how many do you honestly think wouldnt take Shaq?

[bobbyjoe]

Those 93-95 Rockets teams...had playyas. Dont even say they didn't.

Freaking Sam Cassell. And he played some big games during those title runs.

Mario Elie - Started on the Spurs 99 champion.

Robert Horry - Went on to start or be the main 6th man on 4 other NBA champions.

Clyde Drexler - One of the 50 greatest of all time. Dude got his teams to the finals before even joining the Rockets.

Big Otis Smith - All Star PF.


Earlier - Ralph Sampson
Later - Barkley and Pippen.

Drob never had anyone the caliber of those guys, even the mid career versions of those guys...and when he got someone, Duncan...he won 2 titles with him.

And he made it out of the first round and got swept a hell of a lot less too.

Jordan also had better supporting casts than DRob most of the time. So is DROb > MJ?

[whottt]

). *snip*

Damn bobbyjoe...one the one hand you come up with some decent takes, on the other, I sometimes wonder if you ever actually watched a game before.

You seem to be completely clueless about playoff basketball.

What's the first thing that happens to a dominant bigman in the playoffs?

He's get doubleteamed, the opposing team clogs the paint and forces the outside shooters to beat you.


Hakeem's 94 team was the most proliffic 3 point shooting team in NBA history. And they were clutch on top of it.

Mario Elie - Clutch
Robert Horry Clutch
Sam Cassell Clutch


No I know you want to say AJ was in that class but you must have never seen him play prior to 99...

He had no shot. He made 1 3 pointer in the playoffs in his entire 20 year career. And he didn't have shot from any closer in either.

Vinny Del Negro was a Euro scrub.

The reason David best regular season was followed by his worst post season was because it was the worst team he ever had...what masked that fact was Drob producing a pheonomenal regualr season, literally doing everything.


The Admiral didn't pad his stats...his stats lead directly to win...that's why he won 5 IMB awards in a 7 year period given to the player who does the most to help his team win.

[whottt]

Who was Duncan's HOF assist man/guard in 2003? In 99? In 2005?

He had two guards that would go on to make the All Star Team...he had the greatest shooter in NBA history, he also had David Robinson.


In 2005 he had an All Star Guard, and PG that would go on to make the All Star game the follow years...

It should be noted...these were both coach selections...not fan balloting.

Did Avery ever make an All Star Game? Did Vinny? Even as shooting or dunking participant?

Did they even make an All Rookie team?

Did they ever even start for any team but the Spurs?





Who was Shaq's future HOF compadre in 95 or this year?

Penny Hardaway was ALL NBA First Team Guard and if he hadn't destroyed his knees, he'd have made the Hall of Fame.

Let's not forget Horace Grant, who was 3 time champion, All Star, All NBA Defender. He differs from Rodman in that...he could score too...15ppg.


Who was Hakeem's future HOF compadre in 94?

Had an All Star former 20 and 10 PF in Otis Smith...

Robert Horry, who just might make the HOF.

Sam Cassell who would go on to make ALL NBA.


Did AJ ever make all NBA? Did Vinny?


That team was the most proliffic 3 shooting team in NBA history.





Shaq didnt win without Kobe but he got to the NBA Finals in his 3rd year in 95.

He wouldn't have if he had played in the Western Conference...he"d have gotten swept, unlike David Robinson.

He got beat by the same guy that beat Drob, he just played him later.


He took out Jordan's bulls that year in the playoffs.
Out of shape Jordan that hadn't been playing for a while...

And Jordan didn't have his rebounder that year...Grant or Rodman...

What did he have, was a team that won 55 fucking games without him the previous year, and nearly made the finals. And Pippen who was contending for the MVP.




He's made the Finals this year without Kobe.

He also has an All NBA Guard...did David?

He also has a former AS PF, Back up C, and former DPOY, ALL NBA, ALL NBA D, back up point.


And I know you'll say these guys are old...but David never played with a guy like that, old or otherwise.




Robinson never made the Finals as the #1 option on a team. He was to Duncan what Kobe was to Shaq or Pippen to MJ (a 2nd banana).

How many finals did Jordan make without Pippen?

We wouldn't have won our first 2 titles without Drob...Duncan wasn't the guy guarding Shaq...And Shaq destroyed us the following season.




If you ask NBA GM's if they would want DRob or Shaq in their primes, how many do you honestly think wouldnt take Shaq?

I gurantee you the team that drafted Shaq wouldn't take him again...

But you can honestly tell me you think David Robinson had the same quality of guareds, that Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan have had?


I want you to tell me that...

I want you to tell me that you'd take Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro, over Cassell and Penny and Wade and Drexler and Kobe...

Just say it right here and now, and this argument will be over...because I will realize that you don't have a clue about NBA talent and never will and stop wasting time debating it.

[whottt]

David'd post season numbers were bad ass his first 2 years in the NBA...when he had guards with perimeter game that were NBA caliber guards...

Amazing how that works isn't it?

So if he started out tearing it up in the post season...what are you saying? He started choking later? He got soft later?

Or is it the fact that the rest of his career he had shitty guards...most specifically the 94 season, when he didn't even have AJ's layups...he had Vinny a shitty 2 guard, as his even shitter point.


How shitty was Vinny? Drob lead the fucking team in assists. Wake me when Hakeem and them do that...

And wake me one of these motherfuckers goes into the armed forces to play basketball, and later plays with a torn mensicus in their knee and back condition that leaves them with no feelings in their legs...plays Shaq.

Then we'll talk about who is soft.

[whottt]

By the way...your excuse making for Hakeem has convinced me of one thing...

Duncan is better than Hakeem.

Duncan carried aging Drob to two titles...Hakeem couldn't do it with Drexler, Pippen and Barkley.

Your logic...not mine.


Hmmm Shaq couldn't carry old Malone and Payton to titles. Duncan did.

Again, your logic, not mine.


Duncan carried old David Robinson to two titles...all by himself.


I might have to drop Hakeem down another notch...

After all, he couldn't win with Pippen and his 6 rings...your Rodman arugment...not mine.

Duncan is now my #1 on this list.


Therefore, Hakeem and Shaq aren't fit to hold Duncan's jock.


I await your contradictory response.


My new list looks like this:

#1. Duncan
#2. DRob...old Drob won a title with a second year player...Hakeem couldn't do it with Barkley and Pippen...Shaq couldn't do it with Payton and Malone. Can't do it this year either...old Drob was 2-0 against Nowitzki, old Shaq is gonna be 0-1.

#3. Hakeem.

#4. Shaq.

#5. Garnett.

#6 Ewing.


God I love one man team arguments.

[whottt]

Jordan also had better supporting casts than DRob most of the time. So is DROb > MJ?



Jordan's freak statistical numbers speak for themselves...

The guy with the freakiest stats in this discussion is David Robinson.

[JBIIRockets]

Duncan carried aging Drob to two titles...Hakeem couldn't do it with Drexler, Pippen and Barkley.

Hmmm Shaq couldn't carry old Malone and Payton to titles. Duncan did.

Again, your logic, not mine.


Duncan carried old David Robinson to two titles...all by himself.


I might have to drop Hakeem down another notch...

After all, he couldn't win with Pippen and his 6 rings...your Rodman arugment...not mine.

Duncan is now my #1 on this list.


Therefore, Hakeem and Shaq aren't fit to hold Duncan's jock.


I await your contradictory response.


My new list looks like this:

#1. Duncan
#2. DRob...old Drob won a title with a second year player...Hakeem couldn't do it with Barkley and Pippen...Shaq couldn't do it with Payton and Malone. Can't do it this year either...old Drob was 2-0 against Nowitzki, old Shaq is gonna be 0-1.

#3. Hakeem.


You do realize that when Duncan carried an old D-Rob to titles, Duncan was in his 2nd and 6th years in the NBA right, where your silly argument saying Hakeem couldn't carry Drexler, Barkley and eventually Pippen, Hakeem was past his prime, in his 13th, 14th and 15th seasons. If that is really your argument as to why Duncan is better than Hakeem, then you need to realize that Hakeem, too WAS OLD when Barkley and Pippen was on the team.

you putting D-Rob ahead of Hakeem, well that's just dumb.

[SPARKY]

Who was Duncan's HOF assist man/guard in 2003? In 99? In 2005?

Duncan's HOF teammate was DRob in '99 and '03. We'll see what happens with TP's career.

DRob certainly did not enjoy the type of supporting casts that TD had in those title years.



Who was Shaq's future HOF compadre in 95 or this year?


Shaq had a better supporting cast then than what DRob enjoyed 1989-96.



Who was Hakeem's future HOF compadre in 94?


I haven't argued that DRob > Hakeem. Hakeem's supporting cast in '94 wasn't exactly worse than what DRob had about that time.



Shaq didnt win without Kobe but he got to the NBA Finals in his 3rd year in 95. He took out Jordan's bulls that year in the playoffs. He's made the Finals this year without Kobe.


He took out Jordan's Bulls after MJ joined the team late in the season and hadn't played at all up until then.



Robinson never made the Finals as the #1 option on a team. He was to Duncan what Kobe was to Shaq or Pippen to MJ (a 2nd banana).


Robinson never had that teammate like TD or Shaq did when they won championships. He never had the supporting cast that Shaq did in '95.



If you ask NBA GM's if they would want DRob or Shaq in their primes, how many do you honestly think wouldnt take Shaq?

I think you underestimate significantly just how good DRob was as a one man show from 1989-96.

[whottt]

You do realize that when Duncan carried an old D-Rob to titles, Duncan was in his 2nd and 6th years in the NBA right, where your silly argument saying Hakeem couldn't carry Drexler, Barkley and eventually Pippen, Hakeem was past his prime, in his 13th, 14th and 15th seasons. If that is really your argument as to why Duncan is better than Hakeem, then you need to realize that Hakeem, too WAS OLD when Barkley and Pippen was on the team.


Duncan won a title in his second year in the NBA..Hakeem didn't. End of story. Duncan was paired with a broken Drob in his second year.

Hakeem was paired with Ralph Sampson.

Don't give me the age shit either...they were 34-35 years old...Jordan was 36 when he won his last title.

Three of the NBA's top 50....






you putting D-Rob ahead of Hakeem, well that's just dumb.


No...you're just dumb. Stupid fucking RocketFan.

Hakeem's the easiest one to argue against..Hakeem didn't do shit that didn't David didn't except win some finals MVP's...best player on best team.

He was looking up at Drob in the standing every year of their careers together except like twice...




Drob had 5 IMB's and he's got a winning record against Hakeem. Simple as that.


Hakeem also couldn't even get his team to the playoffs one year.


That's a big black mark.

IF he's so fucking good, how come he couldn't get his team to the playoffs smack dab in the middle of his prime?

They should call him 40 wins...because that's about all he was good for.

Even with 15 members of the top 50.


Yeah he finally won a couple of titles...

After 15 chokes. In college, in the NBA.

Drob's judged by one fucking series...in basically a 7 year career.


BTW, you weren't in here at the beginning don't come in here jumping stupidly on the 15th page. I don't want to hear this shit...and if you have problem with the logic I am using now...there are about 40 other people that you need to start aruing with before me...because I just applying their logic to the other players.

So basically..

I don't give a fuck about your opinion at this stage, Homer RocketFan. If you didn't have anything to say in the first 15 pages..then don't say it now, and if you are, you need to back and argue with the people making this stupid argument at the beginning.

Bottom line...people are applying being the best player on the best team, as being the best player over all...and it's stupid. It's just fucking stupid.

Is Chauncey Billups better Garnett? He's got a finals MVP.

That's all Shaq and Hakeem have that David doesn't, and he's got a lot more that they don't have...and he beat them more than they beat him. Period. And he wasn't paired with top 50 player when he was doing it either.

[dimsah]

Back to the original argument of Drob vs. Shaq.
Let's forget all the team shit, the game stats, winning %.

Who would win betwen these two players in one-on-one?

That's a pretty easy question to answer even being a hypothetical scenario.

As far as their NBA careers. They both dominated their opposition a majority of the time, but with different physical attributes. Shaq had brute strength to barrel over his opponents. David had speed to get around them.
You can still argue that Shaq was more dominant just from a strength perspective, but Drob was the more skilled basketball player overall.

[strangeweather]

Back to the original argument of Drob vs. Shaq.
Let's forget all the team shit, the game stats, winning %.

Who would win betwen these two players in one-on-one?

That's a pretty easy question to answer even being a hypothetical scenario.

As far as their NBA careers. They both dominated their opposition a majority of the time, but with different physical attributes. Shaq had brute strength to barrel over his opponents. David had speed to get around them.
You can still argue that Shaq was more dominant just from a strength perspective, but Drob was the more skilled basketball player overall.
I don't know that it answers any of the larger questions, but I would definitely take David over Shaq in one on one.

Actually, that would be fun to watch.

[dimsah]

I don't know that it answers any of the larger questions, but I would definitely take David over Shaq in one on one.

Actually, that would be fun to watch.
I wanted to simplify the argument because too many variables have been brought into it. Who was the more skilled basketball player? I believe it's #50.

[polandprzem]

I wanted to simplify the argument because too many variables have been brought into it. Who was the more skilled basketball player? I believe it's #50.

More skilled doesn't mean better

[JBIIRockets]

Duncan won a title in his second year in the NBA..Hakeem didn't. End of story. Duncan was paired with a broken Drob in his second year.

Hakeem was paired with Ralph Sampson.

No, that's not the end of story. The Rockets played arguably the best champion ever in the 86 Celtics, whereas the 99 Spurs played the 8TH seeded Knicks ok. I don't think people are going to confuse Bird, McHale and Parish with Camby, Larry Johnson and Sprewell. And the 86 Rockets lost their point guard John Lucas to drugs, I don't recall the 99 Spurs losing anyone.


Don't give me the age shit either...they were 34-35 years old...Jordan was 36 when he won his last title.

Big men tend to wear out faster than guards....



Hakeem's the easiest one to argue against..Hakeem didn't do shit that didn't David didn't except win some finals MVP's...best player on best team.

yeah, only some Finals MVPs, yeah that's no big thing.... :rolleyes


He was looking up at Drob in the standing every year of their careers together except like twice...

Numbers don't tell the whole story


Drob had 5 IMB's and he's got a winning record against Hakeem. Simple as that.

Hakeem held his own against D-Rob in the regular season, had a 45 point game against him, a 47 point game, props to david for winning more regular season games I guess. But I really like David's 2-4 record against Hakeem in the playoffs, you know when the games really count and the BEST players play their best, but I guess that doesn't matter to you.


Hakeem also couldn't even get his team to the playoffs one year.
That's a big black mark.

Only a big black mark to you. not many non-Rockets fans except Hakeem haters like you even realized that happened.



IF he's so fucking good, how come he couldn't get his team to the playoffs smack dab in the middle of his prime?

His prime was from 93-97. Michael Jordan said it himself, Hakeem was a late bloomer, whottt the hell are you talking about here.


Yeah he finally won a couple of titles...

yeah a couple rings..no big deal :rolleyes


After 15 chokes. In college, in the NBA.

Using YOUR logic, D-Rob choked every year of his collegiate and professional career, using your LOGIC of course.


And he wasn't paired with top 50 player when he was doing it either.

Hakeem wasn't paired with one either, you know that 1994 team that won it all, yet you still rank David higher?? cmon. Hakeem won a championship with no Top 50 sidekick. and that 86 team that lost to arguably greatest title team ever, no Top 50 teammates on that team either.

Your the only person I've read that put David ahead of Hakeem. I mean, one can make an argument for Duncan over Hakeem, Duncan's a stud, but David, gimme a break. Robinson didn't even have a post-up game, he always had to square up. Hakeem could do both. Hakeem had an unblocked fadeaway shot, david didn't have that. They were both equally good defensively, but Hakeem was a better offensive player, end of story.

I don't have time respond to anymore of this....I'll let the majority speak, you know, since Hakeem's name is always mentioned on the top 5 centers list and D-Rob's is not.

[whottt]

If Hakeem was such a stud..."when it mattered" then how come his ass got bounced 7 fucking times in the first round? Including about 5 years in a row in the late 80 and early 90's?


And so now not even making the playoffs doesn't matter?

Missing the playoffs doesn't matter?

I thought the playoffs were everything.

And thanks for mentioning that his prime lasted till 1997...that puts Barkley, he and Drexler all on the same team in his prime. Ass kicking.

Amazing what happens to a bigman when Robert Horry isn't there to hit last season game winners.


Look Rocket Fan...I realize, coming from choke city, Hakeem is the holy grail to you...that beautifull 2 year period, the only time Houston's asshole didn't pucker under pressure. Congrats...but that doesn't give you carte blanche to ignore the choking legacy of your team.



For the 1 trillionth time...when he made the finals, he had Ralph fucking Sampson, Ralph fucking Sampson hit the shot that put them into the finals.

Dude played 18 years...he played with Top 50 all time guards and PF's...he ought to have won a couple.



Lots of first round ass kickings...lots of first round sweeps...

Choked with the best college team ever assembled...twice.


C'mon playoff boy...tell me how he played when it mattered...the other 16 years of his career.

And don't you dare say he had bad teamates...

When you use the Finals MVP argument....you lose the right to pull the teamate card.


And don't you have lottery pick to go look for or something?

[Cant_Be_Faded]

whottt, perhaps you've never heard of a guy named

david

robinson

[whottt]

I don't have time respond to anymore of this....I'll let the majority speak, you know, since Hakeem's name is always mentioned on the top 5 centers list and D-Rob's is not.



Ahh when in doubt go to the "but so and so said" card...you are about the 20th person to say that...Colin Cowherd said...Wilbon said...

Those motherfuckers weren't watching Spurs games in the late 80's/early 90's.


People are fucking stupid...people still call the Spurs boring and they got two of the best fast break guards in the NBA.



The voice of brilliance is a solitary voice old choker...the voice of stupidity is a common one.



You think a plurality understood Einstein the first time he was explaining his theory of relativity? You think he was speaking for the majority?





7 first round ass kickings for Mr. Dream...

How many's Garnett got?


I'll let you go to your flat earth meeting...mr everyone says.



whottt: but Shaq had Kobe...
idiot: so, Drob had AJ!

And people wonder why I am an asshole.

[whottt]

I just wish you motherfuckers had been GM's when Drob was in his prime... we'd have been able to get Jordan, Magic and Bird for AJ and Vinny.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Lol

[whottt]

Seriously...these guys don't think adding Kobe Bryant to the 95 Spurs would count for anything. They honestly think we'd have still lost...

[dimsah]

More skilled doesn't mean better
Then what constitues better? That appears to be the bane of this debate.

[bobbyjoe]

Ahh when in doubt go to the "but so and so said" card...you are about the 20th person to say that...Colin Cowherd said...Wilbon said...

Those motherfuckers weren't watching Spurs games in the late 80's/early 90's.


People are fucking stupid...people still call the Spurs boring and they got two of the best fast break guards in the NBA.



The voice of brilliance is a solitary voice old choker...the voice of stupidity is a common one.



You think a plurality understood Einstein the first time he was explaining his theory of relativity? You think he was speaking for the majority?





7 first round ass kickings for Mr. Dream...

How many's Garnett got?


I'll let you go to your flat earth meeting...mr everyone says.



whottt: but Shaq had Kobe...
idiot: so, Drob had AJ!

And people wonder why I am an asshole.

The funny thing is earlier in this thread you yourself said Hakeem was clearly the #1 guy in the whole group.

Analysts dont have it in for the Spurs. They give Duncan props as one of the all-time greats. They annoint K. Malone as a top 15 player all-time even though he played for a weak media market like Utah. DRob just wasnt quite in that tier.

Out of O'Neal, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq how can anyone possibly say DRob belongs in that group?

By the way, Otis Thorpe was a 14-10 player (career avg's). He made the all-star game once or twice (similar to Elliott). Very underrated player, but hardly a better 2nd banana than Elliott.

Putting aside what "people" say, the stats, rings, and resumes simply are stronger for O'Neal, Duncan and Hakeem than they are for David. Particularly the playoff stats, when anything of substance is actually on the line.

Answer me this: If Robinson's cast was so awful as you submit, why did the Spurs win 2 games against Houston in 95 while the Magic were swept by Houston (given that the matchup of Hakeem-Robinson was much more lopsided statistically than Hakeem-O'Neal)?

[bobbyjoe]

Then what constitues better? That appears to be the bane of this debate.

Then is Vlade Divac better than O'Neal? He clearly had more pure skill than Shaq. Brad Daugherty or Shaq?

You dont need as much pure skill when you have the athletic ability to dominate. DRob himself is proof of this as he relied mainly on his strength, quickness, speed, and wingspan to impact the game.

[dimsah]

Then is Vlade Divac better than O'Neal? He clearly had more pure skill than Shaq. Brad Daugherty or Shaq?

You dont need as much pure skill when you have the athletic ability to dominate. DRob himself is proof of this as he relied mainly on his strength, quickness, speed, and wingspan to impact the game.If the basis of the argument is brute strength wins out then Shaq wins, hands down.
Being 70 pounds heavier than your opponent does not constitute "athletic ability".

When comparing these two players
who wins in a one-on-one matchup?
I'm not comparing what they did with their teams.

[whottt]

The funny thing is earlier in this thread you yourself said Hakeem was clearly the #1 guy in the whole group.


Yeah..but I couldn't get anyone to concede that the one man team playoff argument is a stupid an inaccurate one...so I re-evaluted my own stance...

Duncan #1. 3 Finals MVP's, younger than anyone.







Analysts dont have it in for the Spurs. They give Duncan props as one of the all-time greats.

Based on finals MVP's....It's stupid logic...these are the same tools that call us boring.


They annoint K. Malone as a top 15 player all-time even though he played for a weak media market like Utah. DRob just wasnt quite in that tier.


Psss Malone had the second best PG of all time for his entire career, then went and played with Shaq, Kobe and Payton...and still wound up ringless.







Out of O'Neal, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, and Shaq how can anyone possibly say DRob belongs in that group?


Anyone that watched them play, and play against each other....which of obviousy wasn't you...since you think Drob played in the 92 playoffs.




By the way, Otis Thorpe was a 14-10 player (career avg's). He made the all-star game once or twice (similar to Elliott). Very underrated player, but hardly a better 2nd banana than Elliott.

I'll give you that one...but Elliott also choked the game winning FT's of game 1 of the 95 WCF.


Putting aside what "people" say, the stats, rings, and resumes simply are stronger for O'Neal, Duncan and Hakeem than they are for David. Particularly the playoff stats, when anything of substance is actually on the line.

Oh really? Duncan won a title last year shooting 46% and up until this playoffs, he was a sub 500% shooter for his playoff career...

What's the difference? Stephen Jackson, Steve Kerr, Mario Elie, Jaren Jackson, Robert Horry...


Go look at what Duncan shot against LA in 04 when he had Hedo choking.


Drob shot over 50% with every PG he ever had...except Avery Johnson.

Hakeem didn't even make the playoffs when he had AJ.




Answer me this: If Robinson's cast was so awful as you submit, why did the Spurs win 2 games against Houston in 95 while the Magic were swept by Houston (given that the matchup of Hakeem-Robinson was much more lopsided statistically than Hakeem-O'Neal)?

Why don't you tally up the resumes of the teamates...


The answer to this is simple...you couldn't double Hakeem because then his teamates, otherwise known as the most prolific 3 point shooting team of all time, with Drexler added in...would destroy you.

You could double David...his PG couldn't shoot and neither could his 2 guard really.



Sam Cassell came of the bench in game 5 to score 30 points in that series...

That's be AJ's caeeer high....

And that was Hakeem's BACKUP PG.

IF the analysists don't tell you how essential Cassell was to those titles...they weren't watching.

Casell, Elie, Smith and Horry took turns hitting last second game winners...Drob never had anyone hit a game winner for him.

Look at the FT's...Drob was shooting 16 FT's per game...He was doubled, Hakeem wasn't...

[jdelar03]

David Robinson in his prime in my opinion was unstoppable in his prime, he took snack to school in his prime with his quickness, patrick was a little more trouble because he was strong and quicker than shaq but would still beat him with his athletic ability. So my question is would Robinson be able to guard dirk or would he get embarrassed like Duncan has against dirk, I think Robinson would shut him down 4 out of 5 times.

[dimsah]

So my question is would Robinson be able to guard dirk? I think Robinson would shut him down 4 out of 5 times.and you would be right.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

uhh perhaps you guys have never heard of a player named

DAVID

ROBINSON

[strangeweather]

David Robinson in his prime in my opinion was unstoppable in his prime, he took snack to school in his prime with his quickness, patrick was a little more trouble because he was strong and quicker than shaq but would still beat him with his athletic ability. So my question is would Robinson be able to guard dirk or would he get embarrassed like Duncan has against dirk, I think Robinson would shut him down 4 out of 5 times.
If you were going to design a player from scratch to stop Dirk, David would be the absolute prototype. He's as tall as Dirk, quicker than Dirk, stronger than Dirk, drastically more athletic than Dirk, an incredible blocker, and an amazingly gifted one-on-one defender. With David on him full-time, Dirk would be reduced to taking contested fadeaways.

[MadDog73]

Shaq scored 5 fucking points last night.

Did David ever score 5 points in a playoff game?

[whottt]

Drob never did it when he was the main bigman on the team, and asked to to be the main inside threat, but he had a lot of lowscoring games once Duncan got here and he became the defensive anchor primarily. In 02 VS the Lakers when Drob had the floating back problem he had a scoreless game. But truthfully, he shouldn't have even been on the court he was so messed up.


Drob never did it when he was a focal point of the offense, doubleteam or not. Not even in 2000 at the age of 35 when Duncan was injured and he hadn't played that role in 2 or 3 years. His worst game when he was the main man was a 9 pointer at Portland his rookie year.

Duncan has though. Against Portland game 2 in 1999, he had a 5 point game, we won anyway, because teamates make a difference. He also had a 9 point game VS LA in the 01 debacle....courtesy of Mr. Robert Horry mainly.


Hakeem had a few stinkers later in his career too.


Reason it never happened to Drob was because he was always good at getting to the line and he was an above average FT shooter for a bigman.

[resistanze]

He's scored 0 points before.

Although, I don't hold that against him.

[Sportcamper]

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/tools/med/2006/06/ipt/1149658527.jpg After this season...You have to put Dirk, (The real NBA MVP) on that list... :smokin

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Luc Longley.

Maybe in a close second, Will Perdue.

[DuncanInYourFace]

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/sp/tools/med/2006/06/ipt/1149658527.jpg After this season...You have to put Dirk, (The real NBA MVP) on that list... :smokin


Or not

[PaceMonster]

That's a tough list. I'm just going to list my favorites, and move on:

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Tim Duncan
3. Patrick Ewing
4. Kevin Garnett
5. David Robinson
6. Shaquille O'Neal


wow im in a loss of words....kevin garnett,tim duncan and patrick ewing in their prime better than shaq in his prime... :drunk

[leemajors]

wow im in a loss of words....kevin garnett,tim duncan and patrick ewing in their prime better than shaq in his prime... :drunk

he said those are his favorites.

[ambchang]

To strengthen Whott's points, look at Shaq when his teammates cannot convert (Games 1 and 2), and look at Nowitzki when his teammates are. You think Dirk is as dominant as Duncan, Shaq, and Hakeem in their primes? Hell no, it's just that it's easier scoring 35 points when you are not getting doubled.

[CavsSuperFan]

Did you see Shaq get five points in Sunday's Finals game? Five points! Lowest ever... He's not talking about it... Coaches and Pat Riley are upset... The only person happy about it? Kobe...

[whottt]

whottt: but, but, Shaq has Wade
dumbasses of epic proportions: so, Drob had AJ.


Die die die you incomparably stupid fucks, and let the human race start to get smarter, immediately.

[DirkAB]

Anyone know if Bakrid is finished getting his bleeing asshole stitched up yet?

I miss him.

That's kind of funny, isn't bleeding asshole what your mom used to lovingly refer to you as?

Anyways, I leave this thread for a couple of days and you now have gone from bad to worse, Robinson is better than Hakeem now? Because he missed the playoffs one year? Robinson is better than Shaq because he's only been swept once in the playoffs? WTF??? You want to judge the all-time greats on minor failures in their careers and ignore their greatest accomplishments and failures? Well, I guess that makes sense because your horse has no great accomplishments and one major failure, and yes maybe less minor failures!! Way to go Robinson!!

Too bad he never lead his team to a title, or multiple titles for that matter. Too bad he couldn't perform in the playoffs and he was a choker. I won't post a bunch of insignifcant and random stats ADD-style and offer it as proof like some other jerkoff. Just look up how his playoff numbers went down almost every season compared to his regular season stats, he couldn't get it done when it counted, period. So if you want to continue to jerk Robinson off because of regular season (minor) accomplishments and less minor failures then post on, but if you want to get real and look at bigtime accomplishments and bigtime failures, reality is waiting to hear from you.

BTW that 4th quarter play by play that you posted you ignored the biggest part of it, Robinson missing 1 of 2 free throws with 45 secs to go, choke job. Please explain away how Robinsons playoffs stats go way down in comparison to regular season and Shaq's and Hakeems go up? Let's quit ignoring the real accomplishments and failures that define a players career, because your BS reasons mean nothing except to you.

[RC's Boss]

U cats are still at it?

[dirk4mvp]

Where's Wilt at?

[sabar]

BAkriD's still fighting? You'd think you can be owned only so many times before admitting you're wrong.

[fyatuk]

Please explain away how Robinsons playoffs stats go way down in comparison to regular season and Shaq's and Hakeems go up?

Check shit before you post it.

Olajuwon's PPG went up by about 4 and assists by 0.7. Everything else was nearly identical.

Shaq went up slightly in blocks and rebounds, but dropped in everything else slightly (well, assist went up by 0.1).

Check the year by year playoff stats for David: http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=ROBINDA01

In the years he was the primary weapon (up through 96/97), in every year except 93/94 (the year he won the scoring title, he had no help that year, which is why he won the scoring title), his stats went UP in the payoffs with points, rebounds, and assists going up most of those years, and little dropping significantly. It's only when you include his seconday/role player days that his playoff numbers drop.

Feel free to look up olajuwon's year by year or shaq's, or whatever. Up until Robinson suffered a devastating back injury and voluntarily gave up being the #1 guy, his numbers went up in the playoffs quite well.

[fyatuk]

BAkriD's still fighting? You'd think you can be owned only so many times before admitting you're wrong.

No kidding. He gave up fighting with me...

[DirkAB]

Check shit before you post it.

Olajuwon's PPG went up by about 4 and assists by 0.7. Everything else was nearly identical.

Shaq went up slightly in blocks and rebounds, but dropped in everything else slightly (well, assist went up by 0.1).

Check the year by year playoff stats for David: http://www.databasebasketball.com/players/playerpage.htm?ilkid=ROBINDA01

In the years he was the primary weapon (up through 96/97), in every year except 93/94 (the year he won the scoring title, he had no help that year, which is why he won the scoring title), his stats went UP in the payoffs with points, rebounds, and assists going up most of those years, and little dropping significantly. It's only when you include his seconday/role player days that his playoff numbers drop.

Feel free to look up olajuwon's year by year or shaq's, or whatever. Up until Robinson suffered a devastating back injury and voluntarily gave up being the #1 guy, his numbers went up in the playoffs quite well.


Believe me I did look it up, I think you are looking at the wrong stats because he sucked in the playoffs compared to regular season. Here are the 3 years best years that the Spurs had when he was the best player on the team, and he was arguably the leader, and was his prime. Regular season/playoffs

94: 29.8/20.0 ppg 10.7/10.0 rpg 4.8/3.5 apg 3.3/2.5 bpg 1.75/.75 spg
95: 27.6/25.3 ppg 10.8/12.1 rpg 2.9/3.1 apg 3.2/2.6 bpg 1.7/1.45 spg
96: 25.0/23.6 ppg 12.2/10.1 rpg 3.0/2.4 apg 3.3/2.5 bpg 1.4/1.5 spg

Those numbers are definitely not going up, they are down. So how you look things up before you try and refute them.

And BTW his FG% dropped like a stone 2 out of 3 of those years in the playoffs. In '94 it went from .507 to .411, in '95 it went from .530 to .446, and in '96 it stayed even at .516.

[bobbyjoe]

The FG% for Robinson in the playoffs is what really stands out. It's very dramatic. It's understandable for it to dip a little, but Robinson's was pretty extreme.

But then again, unlike what some of the admitted Robinson homers are saying, this has more to do with his style of play which relied so much on using his athleticm for easy hoops and just outrunning bigs in transition. In the slowed down playoffs, it's all about your halfcourt game.

The reason guys like Duncan, Hakeem, and Shaq are just on a different level than DRob in the eyes of 99.99% of people is that in the halfcourt in the playoffs, these guys have so many go-to moves which set the table for guys like Horry, Parker, Fisher, Bowen, Cassell, Elie, etc to get wide open 3's.

Robinson just never had a back to the basket game which is why his FG% dropped so much in postseason play. Duncan and Hakeem had so many post moves to consistently create high % shots and O'Neal had a nice touch around the hoop to go with his power game, which no one was physical enough to stop (in his prime, which he is clearly not in anymore).

Also, for whoever made the comment about Hakeem's stats being the same in the playoffs, that's just not true. He improves in literally every category (PPG, FG%, FT%, assists, and blocks).

Why was Jordan able to perform brilliantly individually early in his career in the postseason when his supporting cast before Pippen was absolute crap? (Orlando Woolridge was the second best player on that team, would you take him over Elliott).

Why did Hakeem continue to put up great #'s in the postseason when his supporting cast post-Sampson and pre-Horry Cassell was so weak with guys like Floyd, Purvis Short, Mike Woodson, etc being key starters on those teams?

Role players are important but to say they are the be all and end all for a person's individual achievements is going overboard. Role players aren't the reason Hakeem had a 15 foot turnaround jumper which was nearly automatic. They aren't the reason Kareem had a skyhook which was unguardable. They aren't the reason Duncan has about 8-10 great post moves and such awesome footwork.

The argument isn't so much that Robinson never won a ring as the #1 option IMO as that he never matched his regular season level of play in May and June when the games really counted.

I'm sure somewhere out there there's a Jazz fan who thinks Malone is the best PF ever, not Duncan and his logic is that Duncan just had better teams or never had to play MJ while Malone did twice in the finals. But does that change the fact that Malone didnt really match his regular season caliber of play in the postseason? That he missed easy FT's and shots in his typical comfort zone in the playoffs when the pressure was greater? No it doesn't. And that's what separates Duncan from him IMO. Duncan has come up big often in the playoffs, even this year.

And that's what keeps Robinson out of the tier of Kareem, Hakeem, TD, and Snaq.

Let's say it's the playoffs game 7 with a minute left tied game and you have Hakeem, TD, Shaq, and DRob all at your disposal. Who are you running a play for in that situation, who gets the ball to win it?

[bobbyjoe]

Where's Wilt at?

At the top of the list. It's just assumed that no one touches Wilt. Not really much of a debate...

[bobbyjoe]

To strengthen Whott's points, look at Shaq when his teammates cannot convert (Games 1 and 2), and look at Nowitzki when his teammates are. You think Dirk is as dominant as Duncan, Shaq, and Hakeem in their primes? Hell no, it's just that it's easier scoring 35 points when you are not getting doubled.

Shaq is well past his prime. He's 34 years old!!! He's at the stage DRob was at in the late 90's now where he's just a great role player, not the beast of years past.

I agree that Dirk has no business in this discussion.

[DirkAB]

Feel free to look up olajuwon's year by year or shaq's, or whatever. Up until Robinson suffered a devastating back injury and voluntarily gave up being the #1 guy, his numbers went up in the playoffs quite well.

Well now that we've established that Robinson's stats took a nosedive at playoff time during his prime, let's look at what Shaq did during his prime come playoff time. Regular season/playoffs

00: 29.7/30.7 ppg 13.6/15.4 rpg 3.8/3.1 apg 3.0/2.4 bpg .5/.6 spg
01: 28.7/30.4 ppg 12.7/15.4 rpg 3.7/3.2 apg 2.8/2.4 bpg .6/.4 spg
02: 27.2/28.5 ppg 10.7/12.6 rpg 3.0/2.8 apg 2.0/2.5 bpg .6/.5 spg

Shaq's FG% stayed fairly even, but dipped a little each year, but nothing like the dive that Robinson's FG% took. It went from 57.4% to 57% in '00, from 57.2% to 56% in '01, and 57.9% to 53% in '02.

I'm sure I'll post Hakeems later.

[DirkAB]

At the top of the list. It's just assumed that no one touches Wilt. Not really much of a debate...

I honestly think that there is a debate, but no real way to compare. I'd rank them like this:

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem
6. Duncan
7. Robinson

It is almost like the top three are set in stone, but not necessarily in that order.

[whottt]

Please...

Don't act like Hakeem never shot sub 50% for a series...he did.
Don't act like Duncan hasn't...in fact he won a title shooting 46% from the field last year.

[whottt]

Here's some facts for the JV team here...

#1. David Robinson, not Shaq, Not Wilt, Not Hakeem, not Kareem, not Duncan...has the highest single season FG% mark for a post season series. It came in his second year in the league. His next best post season was his first year in the league.

So he became a choker? He became soft?

Bullshit. The decline in his FG% coincides with the departure of Strickland, the injury of Willie Anderson, and the arrival of AJ and Vinny.


#2. David Robinson is only the second man in NBA history to lead an entire post season in boards and blocks, the other being Kareem...not Shaq, not Duncan, not Hakeem.


Thanks for proving my double team points...Drob was doubled more than any of these guys, he had the shittiest guards of any of these guys.

Period.

Fucking AJ wasn't even kept by the Rockets...they didn't even make the playoffs when he was there...do you guys get it?




Yes, as he has been this entire argument, whottt is once again right...

Quite simply, as long as AJ was on the court, you could double team Robinson, and pretty much Vinny too, the others you had to be selective about it and usually could only do it in the fourth...

Go take a closer at their passing stats and you'll see that David Robinson's best years for assists in the playoffs, were his worst FG% totals, he was trying to pass the ball he just didn't have anyone to pass it too.





A quick check of bears me out.


And if you doubt me...then go find another PG that any guys played with, that only made 1 3 pointer in his playoff career(and it wasn't any better from closer in).



David Robinson did not just become a choker after 2 phonomenal playoffs...

In his first 2 years, he had Willie and Rod...the best guard rotation he ever had...

In all those other years he had AJ and Vinny...you weren't going to beat anyone with those guys shooting J's...and other teams knew this, as a result, David Robinson was doubled and tripled for virtually the entire game, and was still forced to try and win it in the fourth.

Teams could do this...and they did it.

This did not happen to Hakeem...Hakeem would usually only get doubled in the 4th...and in those years the Rockets won titles, Hakeem's teamates would destroy any team that doubled him...And Shaq's up until this playoff, have always done a good job of this too.

[NorCal510]

The DIESEL

[whottt]

If you guys still want to debate this...go take a look at Shaq's career...his worst post seasons are the ones where he had no All NBA Guard(which wasn't often)...but even then he had guys that would be all NBA guards on his team.



Earlier in this discussion...I wasn't interested in Drob being rated #1...


Until you tools started trying to claim that he had equal talent around him as Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan...ya'll are wrong, he didn't.


Go take a look at Wilt's and Kareem's post season numbers and see if you can find the seasons where Wilt had no All Star Guards, and Kareem wasn't playing with a guy who either was or would be, the NBA's all time leading passer, at some point in their careers....


Then if you still don't get it...go find another guy on the original list that had a PG that only made 1 playoff 3 pointer in a 20 year career(and if you say he had a shot from any closer, I will know you are lying about watching him play)...then go learn what shots are given to players when a bigman is double teamed...

[DirkAB]

More and more insignificant facts, from the insignificant fact machine called Whottt. Where did all them minor accomplishments get him? So keep on trying to explain away why he wasn't a postseason performer, but I think I'm going to have stick to reality, the guy wasn't a leader or a great playoff player like Shaq and Hakeem. So spin on.

[whottt]

AJ is just as good as Kobe Bryant

I did this instead of re quoting your stupid little diatribe on FG% from some earlier posts...seeing as how now that point has now been stuck up your ass, you consider it an insiginifigant, thus, your own argument is insignifigant...I agree it's insignifigant..It's singnifigant only when you are capable of pulling your head out of your ass and realizing that teamates play a signifigant role, and Drob's guards wer the worst. IF you don't realisze that...it's just a dumbass in way over his head.

[DirkAB]

If you guys still want to debate this...go take a look at Shaq's career...his worst post seasons are the ones where he had no All NBA Guard(which wasn't often)...but even then he had guys that would be all NBA guards on his team.



Earlier in this discussion...I wasn't interested in Drob being rated #1...


Until you tools started trying to claim that he had equal talent around him as Hakeem, Shaq and Duncan...ya'll are wrong, he didn't.


Go take a look at Wilt's and Kareem's post season numbers and see if you can find the seasons where Wilt had no All Star Guards, and Kareem wasn't playing with a guy who either was or would be, the NBA's all time leading passer, at some point in their careers....


Then if you still don't get it...go find another guy on the original list that had a PG that only made 1 playoff 3 pointer in a 20 year career(and if you say he had a shot from any closer, I will know you are lying about watching him play)...then go learn what shots are given to players when a bigman is double teamed...

Nobody has ever contended in this thread that Robinson had equal talent around him, at least not that I've seen, and if there has been then it has been a very small minority. But there have been a few people, including myself, that realize his supporting cast wasn't the bunch of bums that you want us to believe that they were, he had some talent around him and there is no way to argue that he didn't. Besides how does that change your opinion? You change your opinion to spite what others believe? That biggest bunch of backtracking bullshit I've ever heard.

Your true feelings came out when you were pushed, you think that Robinson is better than Shaq and Hakeem in their primes. They came out because, and you even admitted that you are the "ultimate Robinson homer." Your opinion and insignificant facts mean shit.

[DirkAB]

I did this instead of re quoting your stupid little diatribe on FG% from some earlier posts...seeing as how now that point has now been stuck up your ass, you consider it an insiginifigant, thus, your own argument is insignifigant...I agree it's insignifigant..It's singnifigant only when you are capable of pulling your head out of your ass and realizing that teamates play a signifigant role, and Drob's guards wer the worst. IF you don't realisze that...it's just a dumbass in way over his head.

Seriously, WTF are you talking about? You know that pretty much resigned to the fact that you've been arguing the wrong side, when you resort to making up ridiculous quotes. Are you just hoping that others will believe that I actually said that? Weak.

Here's one for you.


I love it when DRob nuts in my mouth, I live for it!

Actually might be true.

[whottt]

Nobody has ever contended in this thread that Robinson had equal talent around him, at least not that I've seen, and if there has been then it has been a very small minority. But there have been a few people, including myself, that realize his supporting cast wasn't the bunch of bums that you want us to believe that they were, he had some talent around him and there is no way to argue that he didn't.


His guards were bums...complete and total bums, they were cut by mutiple teams in their careers, including some of these other C's teams...they never did anything of note on the court outside of playing with David Robinson, and when David Robinson was subtracted from them...it lead to the worst record in Spurs history and Tim Duncan, the worst negative turnaround in NBA history.

Drob almost always had a good PF, and Elliott was pretty good, but he never had the players that could punish teams when he was doubled...except very early in his career.

And it's just that simple.


All those guys had guards, even back up guards, that had some big scoring games int he playoffs...We just watched Wade drop 41 on the Mavs...

The AJ and Vinny tandem never even had a 30 point game....

When Hakeem was winning titles, his back up guards did that for him.

[whottt]

Penny Hardaway was ALL NBA 1st team 3 years in a row.
Dwayne Wade has made at least 2 ALL NBA teams.
Kobe.

Sam Casell did end up being All NBA at some point in his career, and it wasn't even his best season...although, it was Garnette's.

Clyde Drexler was one of the NBA's fifty greatest and was considered Jodan's closest peer for much of his career.


AJ?

Vinny?

Cut and waived and passed around the NBA like 2 dollar whores....they didn't even sniff an all rookie team.

That's the difference between Drob and the others.


Karreem?

Yeah...Oscar and Magic...that had nothing to do with all the titles he won, now did it?

[DirkAB]

^^^^^^^^So fucking what? That doesn't change the fact that Robinson was never able to lead a team to a title. So let's take a page out of your playbook, Robinson would have been as good, actually better than Shaq and Hakeem if he had their teammates! I know it and it is fact, even though it never happened.

Let's not forget one of those bums that played PG, was actually the team leader, not the best player on the team who should have lead the team. It's not David's fault that he didn't have the greatest talent around him, but it was his fault he couldn't even take charge an be a leader to the talent that he did have around him. Just like it isn't your fault that your hero wasn't as good as Shaq or Hakeem in their prime, but it is your fault that you continue to make the jackass arguement that he was better.

[whottt]

I'll say it once again...

But Shaq had Kobe, Penny, and Wade
Hakeem had Cassell, Elie, Drexler...
Duncan had Parker, Manu, and Elie

Drob had....................................go ahead...draw the equivalancy and prove how stupid you are about the game once and for all.

[DirkAB]

^^^^ And I'll say it again, so fucking what! You can't assume that Robinson would have accomplished what Shaq and Hakeem did if he did have their teammates. I don't care how much you think you know about Robinson's game, you can't tell me what he would have accomplished in those guys' positions.

Fuck it, tell us more about this alternate reality that you've figured out. What would David had done witht he Lakers and Rockets? I'll bet he would have won 5 rings!! No, no I take that back, 7 rings!!! He would have been better than Jordan, and that is a fact! I know it is a fact because I watched the guy play every game of his career. Even thought the guy couldn't lead fucking a horse to water, he needed TD and the Little General to take that responsibility from him.

[whottt]

^^^^^^^^So fucking what? That doesn't change the fact that Robinson was never able to lead a team to a title. So let's take a page out of your playbook, Robinson would have been as good, actually better than Shaq and Hakeem if he had their teammates! I know it and it is fact, even though it never happened.

So you don't think adding Kobe to the 94-95 Spurs would have made a difference?

They lost 1 game by 1 point and the series went 6 games...

Go ahead you fucking tool, tell me Kobe is as good as Vinny.

That's what you are saying...dumbass.



Let's not forget one of those bums that played PG, was actually the team leader, not the best player on the team who should have lead the team.

He had no fucking shot. He could not fucking shoot. How hard is this to get through your thick fucking skull.



It's not David's fault that he didn't have the greatest talent around him, but it was his fault he couldn't even take charge an be a leader to the talent that he did have around him. Just like it isn't your fault that your hero wasn't as good as Shaq or Hakeem in their prime, but it is your fault that you continue to make the jackass arguement that he was better.


I want you to find one title, won by Shaq or Hakeem, where they didn't have a guard, who either was, or would be, an ALL NBA guard.

Prove to me that it doesn't make a diference.

And AJ and Elie>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>AJ and Vinny. Elie being the real leader of the 98-99 team. And a guy who could shoot, and hit big fucking shots...for Hakeem especially. Not to mention...Drob was on that team...and Drob was the leading scorer and rebounder against Portland when they took Duncan out of his game. He was also the guy that D'ed the fuck up on Shaq in the Lakers series..

I can't say what's Shaq's worst post season series...but I know for sure which one was his lowest scoring, prior to this year, it was the 99 WCSF VS the San Antonio Spurs and David Robinson...when he struggled to break 20 points in just about every game.


And that 69% FG% mark by chokoing and soft David Robinson in 91 has only been seriously challenged by one guy on this list...Shaq, against us, the year after DRob retired.


There's no reason for me to put Shaq ahead of David Robinson...David beat his ass six ways from Sunday...

He has a winning record against him.
They are tied in the playoffs.
Their common playoff opponents beat Shaq and his teams more convincingly...inspite of Shaq having the better team in terms of ALL NBA players etc.

There's simply no reasson to put him ahead of David.

[DirkAB]

Good lord you are a broken record. I don't care that he didn't have as good of talent, you don't assume what he would have accomplished if things were different. Too bad for him and you, but Robinson will never get that chance to prove it to you that he could have won championships in his prime with a better supporting cast. You have completely taken this debate to fantasyland, and I don't think that there is any bringing you back.

[whottt]

David Robinson has a winning record against Shaq and they are even in the playoffs, actually scratch, when Drob is healthy, he has a winning record against Shaq in the playoffs too...and he whipped Shaq's ass statisitcally in their head to head matchups...

And the common oppnents they had...Rockets in 95, Jazz in 98...kicked Shaq teams out of the playoffs easier than David's.

They beat David's teams 4-2...they swept Shaq.


What about leadership bitch?

Did Shaq ever win a DPOY, lead the leage in boards or blocks? No he didn't...he won a fucking scoring title...Drob did too...head to head against Shaq.

He also got to the FT line as much, but unlike Shaq, Drob was a good FT shooter.

Shaq didn't do anything that Drob didn't do, except win some finals MVP's when he had Kobe...not to mention that Horry guy.

Why should I put him ahead of Drob? Other than the fact that bunch of dumbasses, who think David even played in the 92 playoffs, think I should.

Prove to me why I should.........There isn't a reason, other than the stupid finals MVP's...

[DirkAB]

Did you ever explain why Robinson wasn't able to match his regular season stats in the playoffs, or do what Shaq did and raise them? Have you ever answered why he wasn't the leader that Shaq and Hakeem were? Those are pretty big things, I hope you can explain those.

[DirkAB]

Please...

Don't act like Hakeem never shot sub 50% for a series...he did.
Don't act like Duncan hasn't...in fact he won a title shooting 46% from the field last year.

Not just a series, the whole playoff season, 2 of them matter a fact, in the middle of his prime. I doubt that Hakeem's or Shaq's FG% never dropped 9% two consecutive seasons in the playoffs, especially during their prime.

[whottt]

Yeah whining and demanding a trade and tanking the regular season(on company time) which both of them did...is a real sign of leadership.

I didn't see them leading when their asses were swept, 2-3 times more than Drob..what I saw them do, was be the best players on the best teams, having more talent than David Robinson ever had...and I saw their guys, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Mario Elie...Kobe, Casell, hit game winners...

While I saw David 80FT% shooting SF, choke the game winning FT's.

[whottt]

Did you ever explain why Robinson wasn't able to match his regular season stats in the playoffs, .


Yeah I explained it, in fact I shoved it up your ass by pointing that his first two season in the league were extremely successful...and showed the decline corresponded when Drob was saddled with 2 guards shittier than any they(DRob Hakeem, ever had...indeed, one of which was cut by Hakeem's team.


You called that insignifigant...meanwhile, feel to point out those titles won by Hakeem and Shaq without benefit of ALL NBA talent at the guard spots...I think you'll find that quite signifigant..then again, you are obviously a dumbass, so maybe you won't.

[DirkAB]

Here's some facts for the JV team here...

#1. David Robinson, not Shaq, Not Wilt, Not Hakeem, not Kareem, not Duncan...has the highest single season FG% mark for a post season series. It came in his second year in the league. His next best post season was his first year in the league.


Wow, now that is impressive! The Spurs must have really kicked ass then. BTW, how did they fair in that series? Didn't they lose in the first round to a team that had only won 44 games in the regular season? In comparison to their 55. But it must have been worth losing 3-1 in the first round in order for Robinson to get that record.

[whottt]

Wow, now that is impressive! The Spurs must have really kicked ass then. BTW, how did they fair in that series? Didn't they lose in the first round to a team that had only won 44 games in the regular season? In comparison to their 55. But it must have bone worth losing 3-1 in the first round in order for Robinson to get that record.


So Hakeem and Shaq never got bounced in first round? Never lost to a lower seed?

They did, they got swept too, both of them many times more than Drob...

Where was their leadership then? Where was it bitch? How come their rise to leadership coincided with having all NBA talent at the guards spots?

Are you really so stupid that you don't see this easily seen fact?

Are you even watching the finals?

Because nothing proves just how little you know and understand about this game, more than game 3 of the finals.

Watch...learn, then someday you won't your ass kicked in arugments you should win.....

It's not who you are arguing against that's getting your ass kicked...it's the fact that you don't know what the fuck you are talking about and your reasons for why who is better, are stupid, uninsightful, and wrong.

[DirkAB]

So Hakeem and Shaq never got bounced in first round?

Where was their leadership then?

Well you won't find me bragging up their stats in series that they got bounced by an underdog. You missed my point, you are bragging up all these insignifcant stats and achievements that only you will remember and try to hang your hat on.

[whottt]

I'm done with you BTW, go get your bleeding ass sown up again...and be glad I am not toeing the line for what happened to you the first time you came to this board..Dirk.

[whottt]

Well you won't find me bragging up their stats in series that they got bounced by an underdog. You missed my point, you are bragging up all these insignifcant stats and achievements that only you will remember and try to hang your hat on.


They are signifigant...you just don't see it.

[DirkAB]

Because nothing proves just how little you know and understand about this game, more than game 3 of the finals.


Why because Shaq in his 14th season is getting shutdown and D Wade, the best player on the team, is carrying them? Shaq is years past his prime, but I don't think you care, because you will grab on to anything to try and make it seem like your little man-crash is better.

More irrelevant garbage. I don't care how many times you claim that you are the winner of this debate, because you are just plain wrong.

[whottt]

Why because Shaq in his 14th season is getting shutdown and D Wade, the best player on the team, is carrying them? Shaq is years past his prime, but I don't think you care, because you will grab on to anything to try and make it seem like your little man-crash is better. .

He's getting shutdown because he is getting double teamed, the Mavs are packing the paint, save Superhiman penetration from Wade, and his teamates aren't hitting shots to break it up...

You miss the point entirely...

Shaq is doing his fucking job in this series. He's getting doubled? He's doing his job...it's up to his teamates to change that. That's why it's a team fucking game.

Shaq's always been defendable by fouling him and keeping him more than 5 feet away from the basket.

You're the one that judged everything by post season TEAM success...do I need to go back and find the quotes of you doing it?

[fyatuk]

Well now that we've established that Robinson's stats took a nosedive at playoff time during his prime, let's look at what Shaq did during his prime come playoff time. Regular season/playoffs

I'm sure I'll post Hakeems later.

How bout we just save some time. Here are the differentials for the notable playoff years (aka every year they weren't obvious role players, which Shaq just hit this year).

Regular Season/Playoff Differentials:

David Robinson
*note. Team made playoffs in 91/92, but he missed the last 14 games of the season and the playoffs with an injury. Missed all but 6 games in 96/97 and team missed the playoffs. Only 2 listed years he failed to play at least 80 games, and only one less than 70.

yr PPG FG% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG
89/90 +0.1 +0.2 -5.5 0 +1.3 -0.6 +0.1
90/91 +0.2 +13.4 +10.6 +0.5 -0.5 0 -0.1
92/93 -0.3 -3.6 -6.8 +0.9 +0.3 -0.5 +0.4
93/94 -9.8 -9.6 -0.8 -0.7 -1.3 -0.9 -0.8
94/95 -2.3 -8.4 +3.8 +1.3 +0.2 -0.1 -0.6
95/96 -1.4 0 -9.4 -2.1 -0.6 +0.1 -0.8
97/98 -2.2 +8.6 -10 +3.5 -0.1 +0.3 +0.7
98/99 -0.2 -2.6 +6.4 -0.1 +0.4 +0.2 0
99/00 +5.7 -13.9 +3.6 +4.2 +0.7 +0.6 +0.7
00/01 +2.2 -0.6 -5.2 +3.2 +0.2 +0.3 -0.1

Shaquile O'Neal
*note. Of years listed, played at least 80 games only once. 5 years of at least 70. 7 seasons below 70 games.

yr PPG FG% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG
93/94 -8.6 -8.8 -8.3 +0.1 -0.1 -0.2 +0.1
94/95 -3.6 -0.6 +3.9 +0.5 +0.6 0 -0.5
95/96 -0.8 +3.3 -9.4 -1.0 +1.7 +0.2 -.8
96/97 +0.7 -4.3 +12.6 -1.9 +0.1 -0.3 -1.0
97/98 +2.2 +2.8 -2.4 -1.2 +0.5 -0.1 +0.2
98/99 +0.3 -6.6 -7.4 +0.9 0 +0.2 +0.4
99/00 +1 -0.8 -6.8 +1.8 -0.7 +0.1 -0.6
00/01 +1.7 -1.7 +1.2 +2.7 -0.5 -0.2 -0.4
01/02 +1.3 -5.0 +9.4 +1.9 -0.2 -0.1 +0.5
02/03 -0.5 -3.9 -0.1 +3.7 +0.6 0 +0.5
03/04 0 +0.9 -6.1 +1.7 -0.5 -0.2 +0.3
04/05 -3.5 -4.3 +1.1 -2.6 -0.8 -0.1 -0.8

Hakeem Olajuwon
5 years of 80+, 10 years of 70+, 3 less than 70. Missed playoffs once while playing 70+ games.

yr PPG FG% FT% RPG APG SPG BPG
84/85 +0.6 -6.1 013.5 +1.1 0 +0.2 -0.1
85/86 +3.4 +0.4 -0.7 +0.3 0 0 +0.1
86/87 +5.8 +10.7 +4.0 -0.1 -0.4 -0.6 -0.9
87/88 +14.7 +5.7 +18.9 +4.7 =0.3 +0.2 +0.1
88/89 +0.5 +0.9 -1.6 -0.5 +1.2 -0.1 -0.6
89/90 -5.8 -5.8 -0.7 -2.5 -0.9 +0.4 +1.2
90/91 +0.8 +7.0 +5.5 +0.9 -0.3 -0.8 -1.2
92/93 -0.4 -1.2 +4.8 -1.0 +1.3 0 +0.7
93/94 +1.6 -0.9 +7.9 -0.9 +0.7 +0.1 +0.3
94/95 +5.8 +1.4 -7.5 -0.5 +1.0 -0.6 -0.6
95/96 -4.5 -0.4 +0.1 -1.8 +0.3 +0.3 -0.8
96/97 -0.1 +8.0 -5.6 +1.7 +0.4 +0.6 +0.4
97/98 +4.0 -8.9 -2.8 +1.0 -0.6 -0.6 +1.2

Whott does have a point in that Robinson's nosedive corresponds with the loss of Strickland, Anderson, and really big when Elliot left. Noticed the -9.8 is when the Spurs best shooter was Vinny del Negro, and he was best with pull-ups so he was nearly useless in a half-court offense. When Elliot came back the next year, Robinson's numbers went back up. It is quite a valid point. Strangely, it was also after his first major injury, so I wonder if that might have had a bigger effect than we know.

Hakeem and Shaq were also pretty well rested for the playoffs too since they both missed quite a few games on a regular basis (especially Shaq)

Robinson was easily the best in the regular season. Hakeem easily the best in the playoffs.

Still looks to me like Hakeem is easily #1 and Robinson and Shaq are close (to the point of it being a preference call).

[whottt]

Still looks to me like Hakeem is easily #1 and Robinson and Shaq are close (to the point of it being a preference call).

Fair enough....but Drob and Shaq aren't that close when you look at their head to head matchups...and head to head record.

[whottt]

Whott does have a point in that Robinson's nosedive corresponds with the loss of Strickland, Anderson, and really big when Elliot left. Noticed the -9.8 is when the Spurs best shooter was Vinny del Negro, and he was best with pull-ups so he was nearly useless in a half-court offense. When Elliot came back the next year, Robinson's numbers went back up. It is quite a valid point. Strangely, it was also after his first major injury, so I wonder if that might have had a bigger effect than we know.

Also please note that Robinsons drop in FG% corresponds with a rise in assist and FTA totals...

IE he was getting the living shit double teamed out of him, mauled..and passing out of it to little or no benefit. IT's one thing to pass to Mario Elie...it's entirely another to pass to a guy who made 1 playoff 3 pointer in his 20 year career.

That best shooter you mentioned...was also the PG on the Spurs that year...a second string Euro 2 guard was his PG.

Think about that for a second...

The question is not, why did he get his ass kicked by a team featuring multiple HOF'ers...the question is...how in the hell did he win 55 games with that team?

Like I said early on...Drob's crime is being good enough to get shit teams in way over their heads...and carry them way further than they had any business being.


Drob never failed to make the playoffs...he never failed to have a winning record...he never got swept.

That's not true of Shaq or Hakeem.


So either you think he always had more talent...or you have to admit he did more with less...

Of course, he's got 5 IBM awards and a buttload of electic stat crowns to back this up.

[DirkAB]

He's getting shutdown because he is getting double teamed, the Mavs are packing the paint, save Superhiman penetration from Wade, and his teamates aren't hitting shots to break it up...

You miss the point entirely...

Shaq is doing his fucking job in this series. He's getting doubled? He's doing his job...it's up to his teamates to change that. That's why it's a team fucking game.

Shaq's always been defendable by fouling him and keeping him more than 5 feet away from the basket.

You're the one that judged everything by post season TEAM success...do I need to go back and find the quotes of you doing it?


So he isn't getting shut down, and D Wade isn't carrying them? I never said that Shaq was playing bad, just said that he's being shut down, which is true. And what does this have to do with Robinson being better than Shaq and Hakeem? Nothing, just another BS attempt at changing the arguement because you are dead wrong about the other. I love how you always put words in other people's mouths, has worked for you in the past? Might be you favorite move.

[DirkAB]

Whott does have a point in that Robinson's nosedive corresponds with the loss of Strickland, Anderson, and really big when Elliot left. Noticed the -9.8 is when the Spurs best shooter was Vinny del Negro, and he was best with pull-ups so he was nearly useless in a half-court offense. When Elliot came back the next year, Robinson's numbers went back up. It is quite a valid point. Strangely, it was also after his first major injury, so I wonder if that might have had a bigger effect than we know.

Hakeem and Shaq were also pretty well rested for the playoffs too since they both missed quite a few games on a regular basis (especially Shaq).

Is there an explanation for why he could put those numbers up in the regular season but not in the playoffs, somewhere in that load of shit? I couldn't find a good one, but please try again. Any significant injuries to Robinson or his "bum teammates" that might explain? Or is that "well rested" line supposed to be it?


Robinson was easily the best in the regular season. Hakeem easily the best in the playoffs.

Hey if that makes you feel any better, than you can have it!! Congratu-fucking-lations to the new king of the regular season!!!!!!!!!! Nice.

[fyatuk]

Like I said early on...Drob's crime is being good enough to get shit teams in way over their heads...and carry them way further than they had any business being.

Drob never failed to make the playoffs...he never failed to have a winning record...he never got swept.


I definitely agree with you. DRob was way too good at making people overperform in the regular season. unforuntately the playoffs is where things like that are exposed.

But DRob was swept in 00/01 in the WCF by the Lakers.

[DirkAB]

I definitely agree with you. DRob was way too good at making people overperform in the regular season. unforuntately the playoffs is where things like that are exposed.


His teammates weren't the only ones that were exposed in the playoffs.

[fyatuk]

Is there an explanation for why he could put those numbers up in the regular season but not in the playoffs, somewhere in that load of shit? I couldn't find a good one, but please try again. Any significant injuries to Robinson or his "bum teammates" that might explain? Or is that "well rested" line supposed to be it?


Gee, you mean the playoffs when the competition is not only better, but plays harder and has more time to plot strategies?

You honestly want to argue that he should have been able to carry that performance over with no shooters, when you're entire argument before was Shaq did better in the playoffs when everything is tougher?

The playoffs are when flaws are exposed, and those Spurs teams were monstrously flawed, not DRob.

[DirkAB]

Oh, it was his teammates fault!!!!!!! HAHAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!!!! Nothing has ever been Robinson's fault in the history of his career!!! Saint David!!!

Fuck this shit, you guys can continue on sucking his dick without me as a witness. Done with this shit.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

whott>>>>>>>>>>BAkriD
dumb bitch you have to bring your A game against whott. Right know your :owned

[SPARKY]

DRob's playoff stats would be down due to the obvious playoff strategy of doubling DRob and forcing the supporting cast to beat you. With a cast consisting of players like Vinny Del Negro and Negele Knight that's not exactly a bad plan.

I'm not sure why some like to argue that DRob had anything approaching a good supporting cast circa 1992-96. The summer of '92 took care of DRob's supporting cast with the free agency loss of Strickland for nothing and Terry Cummings blowing out his knee. Even before then you had a team with suspect perimeter shooting. For a team with a dominant big that's not a good quality.

I never realized the Spurs had such a great supporting cast in the mid-90s. Guess I missed that as I prayed every season for help via trade, free agency, theft, etc...for DRob.

[DirkAB]

whott>>>>>>>>>>BAkriD
dumb bitch you have to bring your A game against whott. Right know your :owned

Whottt sucks Robinson's dick, and you suck Whottt's dick!!!!!!! Keep up the good work you little suckass.

[whottt]

But DRob was swept in 00/01 in the WCF by the Lakers.


True..but he wasn't the focal point of the offense, and was way way past his prime. The others were all swept in their prime.

[fyatuk]

Oh, it was his teammates fault!!!!!!! HAHAHAHHAHAHAH!!!!!!!! Nothing has ever been Robinson's fault in the history of his career!!! Saint David!!!

Fuck this shit, you guys can continue on sucking his dick without me as a witness. Done with this shit.

It's rather obvious. Just looking at the quality of teammates DRob has in relation to the movements of his stats. When he had better teammates, his playoff improvement improved, when he had bad teammates, he had worse.

Just look at Shaq's numbers. His numbers went up in the playoffs for the first time when he went to LA. Do you think that had nothing to do with LA having a better supporting cast than he had in Orlando?

I'm not trying to say it was ALL the teammates fault. But it definitely played a large role in the drop. And if you don't see that, you are rather dense.

[whottt]

So he isn't getting shut down,

This why you are a dubmass...

Shaq's is gettig shut down, at the cost of leaving another man open on his team...

Shaq is doing the right fucking thing by passing out of it...becauise it's fucking stupid to try and score on a double team,,,


You dumbass...god you are stupid about the fucking game.



and D Wade isn't carrying them?

Kobe isn't carrying them? Or Penny? Or Drexler?

No one ever carried Drob's teams but Drob....that's the point.



I never said that Shaq was playing bad, just said that he's being shut down, which is true.

He's a drawing fucking double team...do you think he'd be drawing a double team if he sucked?

Damn you are fucking stupid.

You want to him to stand out there and shoot 10 footers over 2 guys because his POS teamates aren't stepping up?

Or do you want him to play team fucking ball and pass to the open guy?

You're fuckkng stupid.

The only time bigman needs to be scoring on doubles is when his perimeter teamates absolutely suck.., which for DRob was often...and Shaq is going to need to do it too eventually...

But if you think he's going to shoot 60% with two fucking men on him...you are stupider than I thought...and that's saying a lot, because I think you are incredibly fucking stupid.


Bu it won't happen...because I guranfuckingtee you that Wade is going to get two guys on him quite often in the next game...

Just like Kobe used too...

Now if you can point out someone on those Spurs teams capable of doing that...I'll concede that Shaq and Hakeem were better leaders than David Robinson..but you can't so I won't have too...and you're still fucking stupid about the game.

]

[DirkAB]

^^^^^^^^^More of the same. Nice rant about things I never actually said, what a jerkoff you are. I think you need this site for this kind of interaction, makes you feel smart. Just not smart enough to figure out that you are really just arguing with yourself. Half the thing you rant and rave about weren't even said in this thread! What a pathetic showing.

BTW, I want to amend my list.

1. Kareem
2. Wilt
3. Russell
4. Shaq
5. Hakeem
6. Duncan
7. Moses Malone
8. Robinson
9. Ewing

Robinson is getting close to falling out of the top 10.

[SPARKY]

I never knew Negele Knight was so good.

[bobbyjoe]

Yeah whining and demanding a trade and tanking the regular season(on company time) which both of them did...is a real sign of leadership.

I didn't see them leading when their asses were swept, 2-3 times more than Drob..what I saw them do, was be the best players on the best teams, having more talent than David Robinson ever had...and I saw their guys, Robert Horry, Derek Fisher, Mario Elie...Kobe, Casell, hit game winners...

While I saw David 80FT% shooting SF, choke the game winning FT's.

How bout Game 6 in Houston in 95 with the Spurs down 4 and 2 minutes left in the game. David Robinson gets fouled and goes to the line. He misses both FT's. Then with a minute left he drives down the lane and turns the ball over trying a desperation pass. 2 missed FT's and a huge TO with the game still reachable. I see you talking about Elliott's misses that series ad nauseum but why do DRob's huge misses in the final moments of the clinching game of the last game of the Spurs season not count?

[bobbyjoe]

Here's some facts for the JV team here...

#1. David Robinson, not Shaq, Not Wilt, Not Hakeem, not Kareem, not Duncan...has the highest single season FG% mark for a post season series. It came in his second year in the league. His next best post season was his first year in the league.

So he became a choker? He became soft?

Bullshit. The decline in his FG% coincides with the departure of Strickland, the injury of Willie Anderson, and the arrival of AJ and Vinny.


#2. David Robinson is only the second man in NBA history to lead an entire post season in boards and blocks, the other being Kareem...not Shaq, not Duncan, not Hakeem.


Thanks for proving my double team points...Drob was doubled more than any of these guys, he had the shittiest guards of any of these guys.

Period.

Fucking AJ wasn't even kept by the Rockets...they didn't even make the playoffs when he was there...do you guys get it?




Yes, as he has been this entire argument, whottt is once again right...

Quite simply, as long as AJ was on the court, you could double team Robinson, and pretty much Vinny too, the others you had to be selective about it and usually could only do it in the fourth...

Go take a closer at their passing stats and you'll see that David Robinson's best years for assists in the playoffs, were his worst FG% totals, he was trying to pass the ball he just didn't have anyone to pass it too.





A quick check of bears me out.


And if you doubt me...then go find another PG that any guys played with, that only made 1 3 pointer in his playoff career(and it wasn't any better from closer in).



David Robinson did not just become a choker after 2 phonomenal playoffs...

In his first 2 years, he had Willie and Rod...the best guard rotation he ever had...

In all those other years he had AJ and Vinny...you weren't going to beat anyone with those guys shooting J's...and other teams knew this, as a result, David Robinson was doubled and tripled for virtually the entire game, and was still forced to try and win it in the fourth.

Teams could do this...and they did it.

This did not happen to Hakeem...Hakeem would usually only get doubled in the 4th...and in those years the Rockets won titles, Hakeem's teamates would destroy any team that doubled him...And Shaq's up until this playoff, have always done a good job of this too.

So by this logic Norm Van Brocklin is the best QB in the history of the NFL because no one else has ever thrown for more yards than him in a single game?

Alvin Robertston is better than Magic Johnson because he had a quadruple double and Magic never did?

Robinson did indeed have the highest single FG% over a postseason series. But why does this override the overall postseason FG%'s of Shaq (55 plus) Hakeem (53) vs. DRob (47) over the course of entire careers? These guys played in about 20-25 playoff series over their careers. One/20-25 is about 4 or 5% of their postseason resumes.

If Dirk goes against Memphis for 72% FG next yr in the playoffs, is he > DRob? I think not.

Hakeem and Shaq were both doubled and tripled just as much as DRob. Just look at the series in 95 where you claim Hakeem was never double teamed, yet he nearly doubled his career assist average with 5.5 assists a game that series Hakeem wouldn't see his assist per game average rise in the playoffs from reg season if he was double teamed less.

Now if you're argument is that Hakeem had more 3 pt shooters than DRob's that is obviously true. The thing is though that as an NBA coach you're almost always going to try to take away the other team's #1 and higest % option to make others beat you. Even if they are good outside shooters like Fisher, Elie, Bowen, etc. It's still your best chance. Also, while AJ couldn't shoot a lick, he was a much better penetrator as far as drive n dish than guys like Derek FIsher (SHaq) and Kenny Smith (opposite of AJ who were good spot-up (great in Smith's case) shooters but not pure PGs.

Case in point is Tim Duncan. He's had excellent talent around him his whole career but teams still consistently double team him because shots in the paint are just higher % so you have to try to minimize them. Other than the Mavs of this year, almost every team has double teamed Duncan extensively in the playoffs. You have no choice unless you have a Rasheed Wallace Defensively.

Same with Shaq. Regardless of how good Bryant was, you had to swarm on Shaq or he'd dunk on you or get a 2 foot shot almost everytime down. This is why Bryant's game

Also Vinny was an excellent mid range shooter. His range didnt extend to the 3 point line and he was very weak defensively but the guy could shoot up to about 18-19 feet.

I would agree that he was really the weak link on the Spurs team all in all though in terms of holding them back (much moreso than AJ who you seem to just loathe).

No one is saying Robinson wasn't great because he was, just not on par with the aforementioned guys.

Hakeem did have better 3 pt shooters in his prime than DRob (though not in his early years until about 93). But is Cassell the reason Hakeem had 15 post moves and an unstoppable turnaround J or is taht because it's a skill he worked hard to develop?

Is Parker the reason Duncan is money on the bank shot up to 16-18 feet or skill? Is Bowen the reason Duncan has incredible Mchale and Hakeemesque footwork or is it because of the work he put in at Wake Forest honing his game?

Your constantly referring to how AJ couldn't shoot is also misleading and I'm sure you know this. No one is going to argue AJ COULD shoot. But DRob did have some quality shooters over portions of his career, namely Dale Ellis and Chuck Person. Elliott also had good range for a SF and Vinny had a nice jumper but couldn't hit from the arc.

Did AJ lead to some problems spreading the court with SA? Absolutely he did. Teams would typically rotate to all the other shooters but AJ and dare him to hit 15-20 footers. He never hit a good %.

But it's not like Vernon Maxwell, Hakeem's 2G for most of his prime was a great shooter. He was really erratic and a low % shooter. And it's not like Robinson had 4 scrubs surrounding him who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. It was really mainly AJ who hurt SA in the outside shooting dept. Vinny really hurt SA defensively.

[travis2]

Damn...FUkwiT is still here? :lmao