IN THEIR PRIME, which big man was the best?

[resistanze]

Rank these hall of famers (or future HOFs) when they were at their prime.

Shaquille O'Neal
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajawon
Kevin Garnett

Duncan and Garnett may still be in their prime but they entered it some years ago.

[TDMVPDPOY]

i dont think we will ever see duncan in his prime, this team is too stacked, and duncan plays unselfish, and this team coasts durin regular season

[Texas_Ranger]

I would say Duncan

[Shank]

Shaq was pretty vicious and damn near unstoppable.

[Odogg]

Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Ewing
Robinson
Garnett

Bottom 3 never won a title. And before the Spurs posse tries to "round me up". Robinson never won jack until Duncan arrived.

[resistanze]

Shaq, Hakeem and Robinson IMO were a cut above the rest in their prime. They were just completely dominant

I would rank them:

1. Hakeem
2. Shaq
3. Robinson
4. Duncan
5. Ewing/Garnett

Duncan's career OVERALL will probably be near the top, but those three guys were monsters.

[ducks]

Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Ewing
Robinson
Garnett

Bottom 3 never won a title. And before the Spurs posse tries to "round me up". Robinson never won jack until Duncan arrived.

david robinson won a title :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes
mav trolls are funny

[Odogg]

david robinson won a title :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes :rolleyes
mav trolls are funny

He did retard? Without Duncan? When was that? Try rereading my post or get your mom to help you out. She'll be home in a minute, she just left.

[Darrin]

Rank these hall of famers (or future HOFs) when they were at their prime.

Shaquille O'Neal
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajawon
Kevin Garnett

Duncan and Garnett may still be in their prime but they entered it some years ago.

That's a tough list. I'm just going to list my favorites, and move on:

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
2. Tim Duncan
3. Patrick Ewing
4. Kevin Garnett
5. David Robinson
6. Shaquille O'Neal

[travis2]

No way would I put Ewing or Garnett over Robinson.

The others you can make an argument for.

[Bartzini]

1. Kevin Mchale / Tim Duncan (just in pure scoring, play making ability)
2. Hakeem Olajuwan / David Robinson (completely dominating the paint)
3. Shaquile Oneal (unstoppable downlow due to pure size)
4. Kareem Abdul Jabar (scoring ability and moves)



(edit: i dont consider tim nor mchale a big man, as in a shaq or hakeem) Tim is more forward than he is center imo.

[tlongII]

Wilt

[leemajors]

Shaq
Duncan
Hakeem
Ewing
Robinson
Garnett

Bottom 3 never won a title. And before the Spurs posse tries to "round me up". Robinson never won jack until Duncan arrived.

not winning before duncan arrived is totally irrelevant. i would lean towards hakeem. the dream shake was totally unstoppable.

[Darrin]

Kevin Mchale

(edit: i dont consider tim a big man, as in a shaq or hakeem) Tim is more forward than he is center imo.

Slow white guy who survived on awkward moves. He wouldn't make it five minutes in today's game. He'd just be like Corliss Williamson if not on a Championship team in Boston. He was a Sixth Man most of his career.

How he made that list is beyond me.

[DarrinS]

Why IS Garnett on that list?

Why ISN'T Lew Alcindor on that list?
(a.k.a. Kareem Abdul Jabbar)


http://www.achievement.org/achievers/woo0/large/woo0-062.jpg

[JamStone]

Shaq, then Hakeem.

[Bartzini]

Kevin Mchale in his prime (back then) was clutch.

You are probably right, he wouldnt have much impact today...but in his prime he was awesome.

[resistanze]

I intentionally selected big men active in the past 10-15 years.

[TDMVPDPOY]

KG should never be mention with that group of guyz, his just at the end of the nite a statpadder.

[ducks]

Did Shaq Win A Title Without Kobe
If He Wins A Title This Year He Had To Have Wade And Gp

[Bartzini]

Pro Playing Highlights:

NBA All-Rookie Team (1981)

NBA Sixth Man Award (1984, 1985)

All-NBA First Team (1987)

NBA All-Defensive First Team (1986-88)

NBA All-Defensive Second Team (1983, 1989, 1990)

Seven-time NBA All-Star (1984, 1986-1991)

His array of low post moves revolutionized pivot play

During 13 seasons with the Celtics, averaged 17.9 points and 7.3 rebounds per game

His 56-point effort against the Detroit Pistons on March 3, 1985 ranks second all-time in Celtics' single-game history behind Larry Bird's 60-point performance against the Atlanta Hawks on March 12, 1985

Ninth highest all-time field goal percentage in NBA history (.554)

First player in NBA history to shoot 60 percent from the field and 80 percent from the foul line in the same season (1986-87)

Member of three NBA Championship teams (1981, 1984, 1986)

From 1980-81 to 1991-92, teamed with Larry Bird and Robert Parish to form one of the greatest frontlines in professional basketball history

In that 12-year era, Celtics compiled a 690-276 record and won nine Atlantic Division titles and five Eastern Conference championships

On Boston's all-time lists, ranks second in field goal percentage (6,830-12,334, .554), third in games (971), fourth in points (17,335) and field goals made (6,830) and sixth in rebounds (7,112) and minutes (30,118)

Member, NBA 50th Anniversary Team (1996-97)


Some facts on Mchale. I respect his game much the same way i do about duncan's game. Not flashy or noticable, but somehow he manages to bring it home when tasked to do so.

[Bob Lanier]

[Kevin McHale] wouldn't make it five minutes in today's game. He'd just be like Corliss Williamson
:lmao :drunk

1. Hakeem Olajuwon
...
...
2. Tim Duncan
3. Shaquille O'Neal
4. David Robinson
5. Patrick Ewing
6. Kevin Garnett

I'm not entirely sure I'd describe Garnett as a "big man", though, any more than I would Dirk Nowitzki. A seven-foot small forward is still a small forward no matter what position he plays at. And this is just an odd list to begin with.

[Bartzini]

Bob Lanier -- Reminds me of Bill Lambier..


I can't remember too much about him, other than i absolutely hated him.

[Leetonidas]

Shaq probably. Shaq was the most dominant center ever, period. David was a friggin' beast too though, so was Dream. Timmy has a better overall career and I don't even think he's in his prime yet. Next season we will see...

[strangeweather]

Hakeem is the best big man I've ever seen play.

Shaq and Duncan get the next two slots. They have completely different games, but it's hard to make a case that either is obviously better than the other.

David was a truly incredible player. I would have loved to see him in his prime (pre-injury) with a truly gifted supporting cast, because I think with the right support, he would have been better than Shaq or Duncan. I can't point to any evidence to prove this assertion however.

Ewing was a good player, but I don't think he was as good as the other four.

Garnett doesn't fit this list very well, but he's an incredibly talented player who, like David, never had the support players he deserved.

[Fabbs]

Hakeem Olajawon Studied MJs moves.
Tim Duncan All without an offensive coach.
Kevin Garnett Get real. Surround him with a good team and he rocks.
Shaquille O'Neal 5 second keyholes and allowed to do offensive charges every other score helps.
David Robinson great role player.
Patrick Ewing Also victim of offensive offensive coach (Van Grunty).

Must add Wilt.

[DarrinS]

What about these guys?

Bill Russell
Wilt Chamberlain
George Mikan

[DarrinS]

David was a truly incredible player. I would have loved to see him in his prime (pre-injury) with a truly gifted supporting cast, because I think with the right support, he would have been better than Shaq or Duncan. I can't point to any evidence to prove this assertion however.



Given that David didn't start playing ball until pretty late in life, his career is pretty remarkable. He's probably one of the most intelligent players to ever play the game, too.

[Bob Lanier]

George Mikan
Now here's where we get to the "slow white boy who wouldn't last five minutes in today's game".

Kareem, Hakeem, Russell, and Wilt are in my opinion the best centers to play the game (in that order, but I wouldn't be offended if they were rearranged). Shaq, Moses Malone, and Arvydas Sabonis are in the second tier, and then the field really opens up.

Re: DarrinS's post below: Greatness should be judged relative to greatness. Mikan was the best of a sorry bunch, but he would have been schooled by almost any all-star center from the late 50s onward. Bob Lanier, among many others, was a better player than George Mikan.

[DarrinS]

Now here's where we get to the "slow white boy who wouldn't last five minutes in today's game".

Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt, and Russell are in my opinion the best centers to play the game (in that order, but I wouldn't be offended if they were rearranged). Shaq, Moses Malone, and Arvydas Sabonis are in the second tier, and then the field really opens up.


In Mikan's day, they were almost ALL slow, white boys. He was dominant in his era, nontheless.

[whottt]

Here's a chart of the career bests for each in the major categories, the highest total for each category will be bolded.



PTS FG% RB A BS S FTA
Shaquille O'Neal 29.7 601 13.9 3.8 3.5 0.9 13.1

David Robinson 29.8 551 13.0 4.8 4.5 2.3 11.6

Patrick Ewing 28.6 567 12.1 3.0 4.0 1.4 7.9

Tim Duncan 25.5 549 12.9 3.9 2.9 0.9 8.5

Hakeem Olajawon 27.8 538 14.0 3.6 4.6 2.6 8.0

Kevin Garnett 24.2 526 13.9 6.0 2.2 1.7 6.1



Here's where they ranked against each other in each of those categories and combined using a lower is better scoring system:



Pts FG% RB A BS S FTA Score
David Robinson 1 3 3 2 2 2 2 = 15

Shaquille O'Neal 2 1 2 4 4 5 1 = 19

Hakeem Olajawon 4 5 1 5 1 1 4 = 21

Patrick Ewing 3 2 5 6 3 4 5 = 28

Tim Duncan 5 4 4 3 5 5 3 = 29

Kevin Garnette 6 6 2 1 6 3 6 = 30






LOL! I am the ultimate Drob homer but I promise I didn't have any preconceived ideas for that simplistic little ranking...and I didn't expect Drob to lead it by that much under any circumstances...


What does it all mean? Well no more than the IBM awards already told us...just that when you judge peak performance in terms of seasonal bests Drob grades out as...well, the best all around C of his era and one of the best in history.

Ironic that he'd the be last guy on that list anyone would rank #1, becauyse of media ignorance...well ok, maybe Ewing.

And BTW...it's seriously annoying that Ewing even gets put on these lists...he doesn't belong on them.


We could do another ranking...we could rank them by number of all star guards they played with...subtracting points for each. I wonder where Drob would finish on that one relative to the other C's...in NBA history. I know where Shaq would finish if we used that system on this list....it's easy to do with Shaq..just count the number of finals he has played in...on each he had at least one AS guard. How many rings did he win without one? No doubt who'd be dead last using that system...Bill Russell and the 2.6 billion AS's he played with.

[samikeyp]

Shaquille O'Neal
Hakeem Olajawon
Tim Duncan
Kevin Garnett
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing

[strangeweather]

LOL! I am the ultimate Drob homer but I promise I didn't have any preconceived ideas for that simplistic little ranking...and I didn't expect Drob to lead it by that much under any circumstances...
I like David an awful lot, so I'm not arguing with you because I don't like the way your rankings came out.

But there's a lot of things that great big men do that don't show up in the rankings. And giving an equal weight to each category, especially assists and steals, seems to me like the wrong approach for ranking big men.

[polandprzem]

In Mikan's day, they were almost ALL slow, white boys. He was dominant in his era, nontheless.

That's where I agree.

You can't crossout that guy making a ridiculous "today's game" argument. Everybody would fall into it.

[whottt]

I like David an awful lot, so I'm not arguing with you because I don't like the way your rankings came out.

But there's a lot of things that great big men do that don't show up in the rankings. And giving an equal weight to each category, especially assists and steals, seems to me like the wrong approach for ranking big men.


This wasn't meant to be the be all end all on which one was the best...it's just a simplistic evaluation thrown into the dicussion...it has more weight than the average opinion though.

But just for the sake of argument...


Take out assists and steals...

It'll grade out like this:


1.Shaq = 10
2.Drob = 11
3.Hakeem =15
4.Ewing = 18
5.Duncan = 21
6.Garnette = 26


All that did was kick the hell out of Garnett.

Tell you what...you tell me which stats are relevant...and you tell me the little things you think are pertinent. I gurantee you that the more you refine it, the more Drob is going to separate himself from the others. And you can pick and choose whatever other stats you want...

Try using Finals MVP trophies as the criteria...that'd be the one you are looking for.

[whottt]

Could always do it by head to head record...

Drob'd grade out #1 on that one too...

[MadDog73]

Based on Finals Appearences:

1. Shaq. I hate to say it, but the guy has a chance to win a 4th ring, and despite that total humilation block by Ben Wallace, he looks pretty damn good. At his peak? Damn...

2. Tim Duncan. He may not have Robinsons or Shaq's numbers, but he already has 3 rings, and has done it with basically 2 different teams (1999 and 2005 Spurs). And he isn't slowing down.

3. Olajawon. Do you consider his beating of Robinson during Robinson's prime? Regardless, Robinson couldn't win a ring without Tim. That's a fact, again, as much as I hate to say it.

4. David Robinson. Incredible player, and still finished with 2 rings. And enough has been said already about him, so...

5. Dirk Nowitzki. Has to be above Ewing or KG. Has to be. I don't care if his defense has been lacking, he's a different player this year. Hasn't won anything yet, but even if Shaq and Wade run through him in 4, (won't happen), Dirk deserves some credit, Spurs fans.

[whottt]

Where's Dirk? And yes, I'm serious, Dirk belongs on the list more than KG.

1. Shaq. I hate to say it, but the guy has a chance to win a 4th ring, and despite that total humilation block by Ben Wallace, he looks pretty damn good.

Penny Hardaway...Kobe Bryant...Dwayne Wade. Can you say All NBA? 1st Team?

What has he done without them?




3. Olajawon. Do you consider his beating of Robinson during Robinson's prime? Regardless, Robinson couldn't win a ring without Tim. That's a fact, again, as much as I hate to say it.


Do you consider his beating of Shaq?

And using that logic...

Dirk>Duncan


Come to think of it...Duncan>Shaq...or is it Shaq>Duncan? Since they have both beaten each other...










5. Dirk Nowitzki. Has to be above Ewing or KG. Has to be. I don't care if his defense has been lacking, he's a different player this year. Hasn't won anything yet, but even if Shaq and Wade run through him in 4, (won't happen), Dirk deserves some credit, Spurs fans.


Dirk's on an impressive run, he also hasn't had to go up against Hakeem or Shaq yet though...only the #2 guy on your list.

Too bad Duncan wasn't good enough to beat Dirk...

Using your logic I mean. It is Duncan's fault we didn't advance. Dirk>Duncan.

It's Duncan's fault that Pop coached like a dip shit and Manu fouled Dirk on that play in game 7...

Just like it was Drob's fault that Elliott bricked the game winning FT's in game 1 back in 95.

[CubanMustGo]

Hakeem Olajawon Studied MJs moves.
Tim Duncan All without an offensive coach.
Kevin Garnett Get real. Surround him with a good team and he rocks.
Shaquille O'Neal 5 second keyholes and allowed to do offensive charges every other score helps.
David Robinson great role player.
Patrick Ewing Also victim of offensive offensive coach (Van Grunty).

Must add Wilt.

David Robinson a "role player" ? What, did you start watching the NBA in 2003? :td

If you had any idea of the seriously bad talent DRob took to 60 wins before Tim arrived, you wouldn't dare put a proven "can't get ANYTHING done in the playoffs" guy like KG ahead of him. Let's see, here are the four leading scorers after DR in 94-95:

Sean Elliott
Avery Johnson
Vinny Del Negro
Chuck Person

'nuf said.

[MadDog73]

Penny Hardaway...Kobe Bryant...Dwayne Wade.

What has he done without them?

None of the "big guys" on the list have done anything by themselves. The difference with David was he has another incredible Big Guy with him to win titles. It'd be like Shaq and Hakeem, or some crazy shit like that.





Dirk's on an impressive run, he also hasn't had to go up against Hakeem or Shaq yet though...only the #2 guy on your list.

Too bad Duncan wasn't good enough to beat Dirk...

Using your logic I mean. It is Duncan's fault we didn't advance. Dirk>Duncan.

No, because Duncan has beat Dirk out twice in the playoffs. And even this year, Tim had better numbers than Dirk. Dirk's TEAM was better than Tim's, and that's the flaw of using Championships as a benchmark. Still, I didn't want to just parrot what everybody else said, what's the fun in that?



Come to think of it...Duncan>Shaq...or is it Shaq>Duncan? Since they have both beaten each other...

Tim would probably beat even prime Shaq.

Of course, I think Tim > Shaq now when they play against each other, although I'd love to see a Spurs/Heat Finals next year to prove this.

To be honest, I hate these questions, because there are so many variables. I like your reasoning, BTW, I just wanted to throw my two cents in, (which is probably all it's worth!)

I would love to see Robinson at his peak versus Shaq. That might change my mind, actually. Shit, that's it, Shaq's moving down to Number 4!

1. Tim
2. Hakeem
3. Robinson
4. Shaq


Actually, after thinking about this some more, I'm sticking with this list!

[Jimcs50]

Rank these hall of famers (or future HOFs) when they were at their prime.

Shaquille O'Neal
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajawon
Kevin Garnett

Duncan and Garnett may still be in their prime but they entered it some years ago.


1. Shaq
2.Dream
3.TD
4.DRob
5.KG
6.Ewing

[DirkAB]

Slow white guy who survived on awkward moves. He wouldn't make it five minutes in today's game. He'd just be like Corliss Williamson if not on a Championship team in Boston. He was a Sixth Man most of his career.

How he made that list is beyond me.

Wow, just....................wow. Survived? He didn't just survive, he was a force. He did it the same way that Duncan does it today, with great footwork and fundamentals. Tim Duncan fans should respect McHale because of how successful he was because of footwork and fundmentals, just like Duncan. Seriously, what you just posted would be like somebody twenty years from now saying that Duncan couldn't hack it in the current NBA, all because he wasn't flashy enough for them to appreciate.

BTW with the players given, my top 3 would go like this:

1. Shaq - during his prime he is the most dominant force in the modern NBA
2. Dream - I believe he's the 2nd most skilled center ever (Kareem #1)
3. Duncan - greatest footwork and fundamentals ever

[whottt]

1. Tim
2. Hakeem
3. Robinson
4. Shaq


Happy now? :angel


Drob was like 6-1 VS Shaq at his peak. Shaq didn't start beating Drob until he went to the Lakers and got a team that that had about 4 All Stars on it. He was 31-12 against Hakeem or something like that...10-7 against Ewing. Garnett was a skidmark...




Rate them however you want man lol...everyone else does. I was just making a point...the same one I always make. Drob is under-rated bigtime. I wasn't even actually trying to say he was the best...I was just throwing a little ranking system out there based on the limited available stats...lo and behold...Drob scored high on it, like he always does.


Here's the deal about the playoff arguments...

Who do you like the best?
Kobe, Penny, Dwayne?
Manu, Parker?
Cassell, Drexler?
Avery Johnson, Vinny Del Negro?



Guess which 2 never even sniffed an all rookie team...much less an All Star Game or All NBA.

[Phenomanul]

Could always do it by head to head record...

Drob'd grade out #1 on that one too...


It would be too logical to use this one...

IMO DRob is one of the 3 most underrated players in NBA history... what would history have told if Robinson had played for the Knicks, the Celtics or the Lakers???

[fyatuk]

Rank these hall of famers (or future HOFs) when they were at their prime.

Shaquille O'Neal
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajawon
Kevin Garnett

Duncan and Garnett may still be in their prime but they entered it some years ago.

For all around game, it'd be 1) Dream 2) Admiral 3) Tim 4) Shaq 5) Ewing (forget garnett, dirk and that type. They aren't comparable)

Offensively it'd be 1) Shaq 2) Dream 3) Tim 4) Admiral 5) Ewing

At least in my opinion.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

1. Hakeem. The guy had zero holes in his game. In his prime his game was nearly as polished as Tim's while being almost as athletic as DRob. It pains me to say it, but it's true.

2. Tim. Three finals MVP awards with an ever changing supporting cast.

3. Robinson. A center who could things that some guards in the league couldn't. Managed to be a defensive force on a team coached by Bob Hill. That takes talent.

4. Shaq. I fucking hate him, but I can't honestly put him ahead of the two guys on the list that haven't won jack. He could have been the best of all time but his work ethic is for shit. He won a genetic lottery and gets by on refs not calling half of the fouls he commits, he's useless if he's more than five feet from the basket, and he's usually had the benefit of world class help.

5. Ewing. Despite his star making turn in Space Jam, I just can't rank him higher than dudes with rings.

6. Garnett. I've never liked him, but in this case the last ranking is nothing personal.

I'm kind of at a loss as to what those last two are doing on the list. It would have made a little more sense if it was a list of bigs who have won titles or something like that. Kareem should have been in the mix.

[strangeweather]

This wasn't meant to be the be all end all on which one was the best...it's just a simplistic evaluation thrown into the dicussion...it has more weight than the average opinion though.
Granted, and I didn't mean to completely discount what you posted. Apologies if that's how it came out.


1.Shaq = 10
2.Drob = 11
3.Hakeem =15
4.Ewing = 18
5.Duncan = 22
6.Garnette = 26
Really, you could argue that that's a pretty good list.


Tell you what...you tell me which stats are relevant...and you tell me the little things you think are pertinent. I gurantee you that the more you refine it, the more Drob is going to separate himself from the others. And you can pick and choose whatever other stats you want...
I've always liked David, and I'm not trying to prove you wrong. Heck, with a more refined stat, David might dominate even more.

The kind of things I would look to add to build a really good statistic for big men would be things that manifest as help defense and making other players better. Things like defensive efficiency +/-, or team eFG +/-. Individual statistics aren't the whole story. Again, given the team David had around him, it wouldn't be surprising to me if he scored really high on these, either.


Try using Finals MVP trophies as the criteria...that'd be the one you are looking for.
That's certainly not the only factor, but I don't think it should be completely discounted, either -- admittedly it's a different, much more subjective, kind of analysis.

[baseline bum]

[QUOTE=resistanze]Rank these hall of famers (or future HOFs) when they were at their prime.


1. Hakeem -- I've never seen a bigman have a playoff anywhere close to Hakeem's performance in 1995
2. Shaq - His 2000 is the best season by a bigman I've ever seen
3. TD - 30 and 15 seemed like an average performance for TD in the 2003 playoffs
4. David - 1994 was the second best regular season I've ever seen a bigman have
5. KG - A Monster in 2003 and 2004. If he had one point guard in 2004 he prob at least makes the Finals. :(
6. Ewing - The most overrated player in NBA history. I'd take Mourning in his prime over Ewing in a second, but Patrick played in the media capital of the world.

[Odogg]

David Robinson was as soft as a motherf$%ing grape. You can't rate him above Shaq, there is no comparison. If it wasn't for you guys tanking your season and prayin to the lottery gods for Duncan, you would still be without a championship. And you know it.

[strangeweather]

David Robinson was as soft as a motherf$%ing grape. You can't rate him above Shaq, there is no comparison. If it wasn't for you guys tanking your season and prayin to the lottery gods for Duncan, you would still be without a championship. And you know it.
:rolleyes

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

David Robinson was as soft as a motherf$%ing grape. You can't rate him above Shaq, there is no comparison. If it wasn't for you guys tanking your season and prayin to the lottery gods for Duncan, you would still be without a championship. And you know it.

:corn: I'll just pull up a seat and let Whott handle this one.

[baseline bum]

Soft? Man, fuck that shit. Dude couldn't even walk in the 2002 playoffs, but he just took the fucking shot and came out and played Shaq 35 minutes a game.

[Odogg]

There's nothing "to handle" in that argument. He played through pain? Big deal, every player does at some point. Nobody was scared of playin the Admiral. Look how Malone punked him. If that was my head, Malone would have been in the ER the next game we played. I understand being homers, but damn, you can't argue the facts. Did you ever see anyone try and physically punk Shaq? hell no, and you won't....ever.

[MrChug]

I'm the ultimate homer, but I'd have to say that Dream was the best on this list.

Signed, David Robinson

[travis2]

Soft? Man, fuck that shit. Dude couldn't even walk in the 2002 playoffs, but he just took the fucking shot and came out and played Shaq 35 minutes a game.

2002 playoffs?

Oh wait...that was before Odoggshitt started following basketball...

[baseline bum]

Playing through pain? The guy couldn't feel his fucking legs entering the 2002 series with LA, and yet he came back for game 3 to guard the most phyiscal player in NBA history.

[JET_31]

It's a toss up between shaq and hakeem, shaq may be the most dominant player of all time but its hard to compare. Shaqs first year or two in the league he was dominated by hakeem. Shortly after hakeem retired, so we never got to see both of them go head to head in their primes.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

There's nothing "to handle" in that argument. He played through pain? Big deal, every player does at some point. Nobody was scared of playin the Admiral. Look how Malone punked him. If that was my head, Malone would have been in the ER the next game we played. I understand being homers, but damn, you can't argue the facts. Did you ever see anyone try and physically punk Shaq? hell no, and you won't....ever.

So Robinson was "soft" because he wasn't a thug like Malone? He got handed that label because he had the balls to conduct himself with some class. Sadly retards like you that are subjected to Mark Cuban's idiocy are dumb enough to buy the hype and confuse shit talking with accomplishments.

What about Robinson made him "soft"? Was it the Defensive Player of the Year award, the rebounding title, or the blocked shots title? Because those are all things that Shaq has never had so I can only assume that one of those must be the culprit that makes Shaq so physically dominant while Robinson was soft.

Get a clue asshole.

[JET_31]

So Robinson was "soft" because he wasn't a thug like Malone? He got handed that label because he had the balls to conduct himself with some class. Sadly retards like you that are subjected to Mark Cuban's idiocy are dumb enough to buy the hype and confuse shit talking with accomplishments.

What about Robinson made him "soft"? Was it the Defensive Player of the Year award, the rebounding title, or the blocked shots title? Because those are all things that Shaq has never had so I can only assume that one of those must be the culprit that makes Shaq so physically dominant while Robinson was soft.

Get a clue asshole.

Yea ill agree i dont think he was soft. Wasn't he in the army? People in the army aren't "soft."

[baseline bum]

It's a toss up between shaq and hakeem, shaq may be the most dominant player of all time but its hard to compare. Shaqs first year or two in the league he was dominated by hakeem. Shortly after hakeem retired, so we never got to see both of them go head to head in their primes.

I wish Hakeem had retired when he started to really nosedive around 98 or so. Unfortunately, he stuck around until 2001, embarrasing himself in Toronto.

If we had to rank the players all-time, I'd go:

1. Shaq - 5 Finals, 13-time All-Star
2. Duncan - All-NBA First team his first 8 years in the league, 2nd team his 9th. The only player on the list to never lose in the first round or before.
3. Olajuwon - best in his prime, but his stretch of dominance was pretty short
4. Robinson - his back injury in '96 robbed him of 2-3 MVP-level years, but from 90-96 he was a top-3 big
5. Ewing
6. Garnett

[Odogg]

I like how you use the term "class" when you are trying to spin it to show that he was a "classy" man on the court while he was getting his brains beat in! LoL!

1) Malone used to punk him
2) Shaq punk'd him many times, in the media and on the court
3) He never even got to the finals until TD arrived
4) He had arguably one of the best physiques of any player in history, was 7'1 yet intimidated nobody. Unless it was a 6'2 guard going to the hole trying to shoot over him.
5) He pet shot was a face up jumpshot, minimal contact. He was scared to bang.

That's a grape to me. Spurs fans you know this, quit trying to defend it!

[baseline bum]

You're full of shit. Robinson's pet shot was the free throw, because he'd always face up, but the ball on the floor, attack the basket, and get fucking crushed. Tell me any other player who'd win a title with fucking Vinny Del Negro and Avery Johnson as his starting backcourt. It was like Garnett with Trenton Hassell and Marko Jaric this season, only Robinson took his team to the playoffs and won 50 games every year.

[fyatuk]

I like how you use the term "class" when you are trying to spin it to show that he was a "classy" man on the court while he was getting his brains beat in! LoL!

1) Malone used to punk him
2) Shaq punk'd him many times, in the media and on the court
3) He never even got to the finals until TD arrived
4) He had arguably one of the best physiques of any player in history, was 7'1 yet intimidated nobody. Unless it was a 6'2 guard going to the hole trying to shoot over him.
5) He pet shot was a face up jumpshot, minimal contact. He was scared to bang.

That's a grape to me. Spurs fans you know this, quit trying to defend it!

Yeah, uhh... 1 and 2 fit under the "class" thing. What's your point?

3) Like many great players, he had crap for people around him. So he couldn't make it to the finals as a one man show. Neither could anyone else. Not even Jordan could.

4) He altered more shots than anyone else in his time frame, guards or otherwise. Yeah his offensive post game didn't frighten many the way Dream's did, but on the defensive end he intimidated everyone but Shaq and Dream.

5) The admiral didn't bang on offense more because he was better facing the basket. But he did his fair share of post work.

But if that makes Robinson soft, what does that make people like Dirk and KG? Charmin?

[Odogg]

But if that makes Robinson soft, what does that make people like Dirk and KG? Charmin?

Damn close, at least until this year for Dirk. Dirk's been soft since he came into the league, but he is changing that around this year. And look where it has brought the Mavs. No more sitting at the 3 point line shootin bullsh*t 3's, but postin up and taking it to the hole. Exactly like what he did to Bowen on that last play in Game 7. Now that he has elevated and rounded out his game, he is turning into an unstoppable force. Once Dirk gets really comfortable on the block, playing with his back to the basket, you guys will really come to hate him! Garnett is where Dirk was 2 years ago. (And where David was until Pop/Avery/Duncan arrived) Likes to spot up and shoot jumpers all day, instead of do the dirty work that's needed to win in the NBA playoffs.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

I like how you use the term "class" when you are trying to spin it to show that he was a "classy" man on the court while he was getting his brains beat in! LoL!

1) Malone used to punk him
2) Shaq punk'd him many times, in the media and on the court
3) He never even got to the finals until TD arrived
4) He had arguably one of the best physiques of any player in history, was 7'1 yet intimidated nobody. Unless it was a 6'2 guard going to the hole trying to shoot over him.
5) He pet shot was a face up jumpshot, minimal contact. He was scared to bang.

That's a grape to me. Spurs fans you know this, quit trying to defend it!

And you bitch that Spurs fans don't argue the facts? With the exception of #3 there's not a single quantifiable fact in your whole argument. Go spank it to your Ashton Kutcher poster.

[JET_31]

Well, i think robinson was a great player, i never really thought of him being soft, although hes definately not the greatest spur of all time.

[DarrinS]

Go spank it to your Ashton Kutcher poster.

:lol

People who use the word "punk" as a verb have lots of credibility -- or, should I say "street cred"?

[DarrinS]

But if that makes Robinson soft, what does that make people like Dirk and KG? Charmin?

Damn close, at least until this year for Dirk. Dirk's been soft since he came into the league, but he is changing that around this year. And look where it has brought the Mavs. No more sitting at the 3 point line shootin bullsh*t 3's, but postin up and taking it to the hole. Exactly like what he did to Bowen on that last play in Game 7. Now that he has elevated and rounded out his game, he is turning into an unstoppable force. Once Dirk gets really comfortable on the block, playing with his back to the basket, you guys will really come to hate him! Garnett is where Dirk was 2 years ago. (And where David was until Pop/Avery/Duncan arrived) Likes to spot up and shoot jumpers all day, instead of do the dirty work that's needed to win in the NBA playoffs.

Dirk's game is posting up near the charity stripe and taking fade away jumpers. He sprinkles in the occational layup, but that's about it. Don't get me wrong -- the dude is awesome, but he doesn't play in the style of most 7 footers.

[fyatuk]

But if that makes Robinson soft, what does that make people like Dirk and KG? Charmin?

Damn close, at least until this year for Dirk. Dirk's been soft since he came into the league, but he is changing that around this year. And look where it has brought the Mavs. No more sitting at the 3 point line shootin bullsh*t 3's, but postin up and taking it to the hole. Exactly like what he did to Bowen on that last play in Game 7. Now that he has elevated and rounded out his game, he is turning into an unstoppable force. Once Dirk gets really comfortable on the block, playing with his back to the basket, you guys will really come to hate him! Garnett is where Dirk was 2 years ago. (And where David was until Pop/Avery/Duncan arrived) Likes to spot up and shoot jumpers all day, instead of do the dirty work that's needed to win in the NBA playoffs.

Dirk still spends most of his time driving from one wing to the other to shoot fall-away jumpers if there's any sort of inside presence. He's still soft as hell. You're right that he toughened up a little this year, but he's got a LONG way to go to even come close to Robinson's toughness. Shoot, Timmy is softer than the Admiral.

Dirk will never be comfortable in the block and he'll always be primarily a jump shooter. That's his skill set, and he'd be an idiot to move away from it. Dirk just needs to bang on defense instead of running away from any sort of challenge.

[JET_31]

I don't think you could say dirk is totally soft of offense, he has been stepping it up and taking it to the hole. If he wouldn't have driven to get the and 1 in game 7 against the spurs we would have never gone to overtime and get a chance to win. But you could make a great argument that he is soft on defense. Ill admit his defense is still below average.

[SilverPlayer]

2) Shaq punk'd him many times, in the media and on the court

Shaq didn't punk him until David lost a step. David regularly schooled a young shaq including laying down 71 points in a single game to steal the scoring title from shaq.

[Odogg]

2) Shaq punk'd him many times, in the media and on the court

Shaq didn't punk him until David lost a step. David regularly schooled a young shaq including laying down 71 points in a single game to steal the scoring title from shaq.


Since when did Shaq play on the Clippers? :angel :angel Yeah he really showed him he was the man! LoL! Oh and I got video evidence of Malone punking Robinson, but it might be to painful for you Spurs fans. I also have video evidence of Shaq doing the same thing, quite often.

Dirk is still primarily a jump shooter, which is good, since he so deadly. BUT that toughness he had down deep, is starting to really show under the General's guidance. If you guys didn't have Avery's backbone/guts in 99, you wouldn't have even gotten to the finals that year.

[SilverPlayer]

Did I say Shaq was on the Clippers?

Malone and Hakeem owned Robinson in the playoffs. Shaq never did until David was on the decline.

Your thinking AJ put over the top is funny. AJ had alot of help from Antonio Daniels. He had probably the best (read that as most consistent) backup point guard in the league to this day backing him up.

[resistanze]

Unfortunately, he stuck around until 2001, embarrasing himself in Toronto.


:lol

[DarrinS]

Dirk is still primarily a jump shooter, which is good, since he so deadly. BUT that toughness he had down deep, is starting to really show under the General's guidance. If you guys didn't have Avery's backbone/guts in 99, you wouldn't have even gotten to the finals that year.


Is 13 really your number of posts? Or your age? IQ, perhaps?

[ducks]

Yea ill agree i dont think he was soft. Wasn't he in the army? People in the army aren't "soft."
NO HE WAS NOT IN THE ARMY
YOU FOOLISH MAV TROLL :madrun :madrun :madrun :madrun :madrun

[JET_31]

NO HE WAS NOT IN THE ARMY
YOU FOOLISH MAV TROLL :madrun :madrun :madrun :madrun :madrun

my mistake, he was in the navy. And i resent being called a troll, i never trolled this website, i signed up as soon as i found it. This is a great website you guys have here, much more traffic than mavstalk. Im just here to talk basketball, i have never said one negative thing about your team, and dont deserve to be called a troll.

[fyatuk]

NO HE WAS NOT IN THE ARMY
YOU FOOLISH MAV TROLL :madrun :madrun :madrun :madrun :madrun

LOL. You'd think someone would realize with a nickname like "Admiral" which branch he was in. But that's okay. No reason to yell troll just because someone had it wrong though.

[spurs_fan_in_exile]

NO HE WAS NOT IN THE ARMY
YOU FOOLISH MAV TROLL :madrun :madrun :madrun :madrun :madrun

Ease up on the throttle Ducks. I'll take Mavs fans thinking he was in the Coast Guard over the idiot Mavs that think he's soft. That's easily remedied, and far less annoying than the stupidity shown by the REAL trolls.

[mabber]

Rank these hall of famers (or future HOFs) when they were at their prime.

Shaquille O'Neal
David Robinson
Patrick Ewing
Tim Duncan
Hakeem Olajawon
Kevin Garnett

Duncan and Garnett may still be in their prime but they entered it some years ago.

Shaq
Hakeem
Duncan
Ewing
Robinson
Garnett

I'd put Shaq at #1 and Hakeem at 1a but it's very close.

[himat]

How about Bill Russell is added. How could you forget him?

[resistanze]

I intentionally selected big men active in the past 10-15 years.

But add if you wish.

[Phenomanul]

I'm still waiting for whottt to do his usual schooling of forum newbies...

Especially that post where he shows all of the boxscores of head to head matchups (with O'Neal, Ewing, and Hakeem) before Robinson's back injury....

I find it extremely laughable that anyone would rank Ewing above the Admiral....

[DirkAB]

I find it extremely laughable that anyone would rank Ewing above the Admiral....

Equally laughable that somebody would rank Duncan ahead of Shaq or Dream.

[Phenomanul]

Equally laughable that somebody would rank Duncan ahead of Shaq or Dream.

Hardware baby....

But what has Ewing ever won???

[kris]

I don't know who is better than who, but I do know Garnett and Ewing are the ones that don't belong.

David Robinson was by far the most athletic and was a total freak, but needed Duncan to put him into title contention. It should be noted he was always surrounded with less talent than Garnett has. He was the best defensive center ever and probably for the longest time too. Even when he retired he was one of the premier defenders.

Hakeem, for the 2-3 years he caught fire, had the most skill and the best footwork of them all. Duncan quickly matched that level when he arrived into the league, but has left a lot of the deftness and footwork in the past. Hakeem led his team to two titles, but his teams were stacked. Even though at varying stages of their career, all of these players played important roles in winning: Clyde Drexler, Kenny Smith, Robert Horry, Sam Cassell, Mario Elie, Otis Thorpe. Hakeem was great one on one, but it was impossible for other teams to double team, because the rest of the team was lethal.

Shaquille will be the most dominant center ever. No player could ever stop his over powering game. Very underrated defensively when on the ball. If the Heat do win the championship, he will have won the title with two different teams, but with the aid of two elite superstar shooting guards. In his prime, the most unguardable player one-on-one.

Tim Duncan began his career with the promise of being better than all of the aforementioned, but toned down for a variety of reasons. Most could undeniably cite the emergence of Manu and Tony, injuries, and the changing of how he played the game individually as factors. Nevertheless, the driving force behind three championship teams. The jury is out on whether Tim finishes the last 1/3 of his career strong.

[DirkAB]

Hardware baby....

But what has Ewing ever won???

I'm not disputing that Robinson was better than Ewing, in fact I agree with you. I was saying that it is ridiculous to put Duncan ahead of Shaq or Dream.

[leemajors]

I'm not disputing that Robinson was better than Ewing, in fact I agree with you. I was saying that it is ridiculous to put Duncan ahead of Shaq or Dream.

he's right up there, and i would think another great season or two would put him abreast, if not ahead of them both. if shaq wins another ring, then duncan would have to as well. i wouldn't say it is ridiculous, i would say it was premature. he's only 30.

[DirkAB]

he's right up there, and i would think another great season or two would put him abreast, if not ahead of them both. if shaq wins another ring, then duncan would have to as well. i wouldn't say it is ridiculous, i would say it was premature. he's only 30.

No, it is ridiculous to prematurely say he's better than Shaq and Dream. Say he's better when he has actually earned it, instead of making rankings and statements based on what he may or may not accomplish in the future. He isn't there yet, and honestly nobody knows if he'll ever get to that level, so it's ridiculous to say he is.

1 or 2 more seasons you think will solidify him next to Shaq? That is also a ridiculous statement. Shaq is on his way to his 6th finals appearance, and possibly his 4th ring. Shaq was an MVP canidate in his 13th season as a pro, and very easily could get another ring in his 14th season as a pro. I in no way see Duncan being as good as Shaq was last year when he's in his 13th season, I also don't see him getting to the finals 3 more times before he's done.

[leemajors]

every time he has been there, he as won. one or two more great seasons, not seasons like he had this year. i'm saying it's premature since duncan hasn't been in the league 10 years. he could end up being better, and he's certainly one of the best power forwards the game has seen. duncan is a perennial MVP candidate, but you are right, there is no reason to assume he will be for the rest of his career. it's also kinda pointless to continue my argument since you seem to think duncan can never be considered as good as shaq. that's just your personal bias.

[Rynospursfan]

1. Shaq
2.Dream
3.TD
4.DRob
5.KG
6.Ewing

:tu It only took 41 posts for someone to get it right.

[whottt]

hegamboa and others...thanks for the props. Yes I could attempt to make the Mavfan smarter, but really why should I do anything nice for Mavfan at this point? If I start trying to smarten up every dumb Mavsfan I come across...accck the thought is simply overwhelming, we're talking two or three lifetimes of non-stop charity work here...It drains me just thinking about it.

Besides...where does a Mav fan get off calling anyone soft? Ultimate Irony.

Nope..no free education for this dumbass, I've already done enough charity work on dumbass Mavsfans and frankly they deserve nothing more than to be left stupid. This one, I think I'll just let him continue living stupid. It'll be good for laughs if nothing else.

[SA Gunslinger]

David Robinson was as soft as a motherf$%ing grape. You can't rate him above Shaq, there is no comparison. If it wasn't for you guys tanking your season and prayin to the lottery gods for Duncan, you would still be without a championship. And you know it.

You fucking child. How many games did you actually watch him play?

Fucking azzclown. :flipoff

[exstatic]

Wilt was the most dominant big man in the history of the NBA. He mad Snaq look like a child, especially on defense and the boards.

[AZLouis]

Shaquille O'Neal #2
David Robinson #4
Patrick Ewing #5
Tim Duncan #3
Hakeem Olajawon #1
Kevin Garnett #6

[ManuTim_best of Fwiendz]

For top two I've seen in the past 15 years, I'd say it'd be the Dream and Shaq....

and I guess Shaq equals or (somewhat Surpasses). Too bad Everyone was rooting against him but he was pretty much unstoppable for that 3-peat. Same can be said about Hakeem but in a different way, the Blocks, Steals, Athletic post up moves, extremely skilled hands (A center that steals?)...he was insanely quick for a big man. A totally unique player. It sucks that he had to get his explosiveness curtailed from the blood clot related disease in his knees.

Then Robinson, I barely remember his monster game
Then Ewing

Then I don't really want to include Timmy, and Garnett doesn't really play like a big man as much as Tim does at PF, just a unique seven foot wonder.

Because Tim's an extremely unselfish, and willing to defer, his stats will probably be somewhat deflated by the end of his career. I don't really care if his individual numbers aren't spectacular. I'll be fine if Tim outbeats all these big men just by having many,many, many more rings than them. :king :D

[Spurologist]

Based on that list

THE DREAM

[DirkAB]

Wilt was the most dominant big man in the history of the NBA. He mad Snaq look like a child, especially on defense and the boards.

Made Shaq look like a child? Get real. The only way he made Shaq look like a child is through statistics, which were absolutely over-inflated because he played against 6-foot nothings. Consider the competition, Shaq would have killed those little turds he played against too, maybe worse. Wilt's stats started to come back down to earth once some real competition started showing up in the league. IMO, I would say Shaq would have the edge in that matchup.

[SsKSpurs21]

wow alot of people IMO are rating duncan too high.

all time greatest big men my list would be

1. Kareem (the man won on every freakin level
2. Wilt (complete domination)
3. Russell (the man has more rings than fingers)

now is where the debate begins

4) hakeem (the man was a beast, unstoppable, made Drob and shaq look like fools)

5) shaq (has taken 3 different teams to the NBA finals)
6) DRob (even though he didnt win a ring without duncan, he was a freak. iam sure he would give duncan alot of problems if they matched up)
7) Duncan ( nuff said)
8) malone
9) ewing
10) garnett

iam sure iam leaving someone major out of this list but iam too lazy to check nba.com's greatest players list to see who would make this list.

[MissAllThat]

I think I'd put Hakeem at the top. Followed by David. Then Shaq. Tim and KG aren't really big men, so I'm not ranking them, although if I was they'd still follow those 3. We're talking prime right, not entire careers?

As for the Mavs troll who said David won nothing without Tim. Well that's wonderful. He had a horrible supporting cast. He almost got the team to the Finals once, but I guess thats what happens when you don't have a supporting cast. Plus look who it was who beat him that year? David was amazing pre-injury. Who knows what it would have been like if he'd ever gotten back to that level after getting Duncan. Could have been amazing. Then again what is the point of arguing with a Mavs fan who's only method of knowing what happened before 2001 is by looking up stats on the internet.

[polandprzem]

1. Kareem (the man won on every freakin level

:lol

[bobbyjoe]

No, it is ridiculous to prematurely say he's better than Shaq and Dream. Say he's better when he has actually earned it, instead of making rankings and statements based on what he may or may not accomplish in the future. He isn't there yet, and honestly nobody knows if he'll ever get to that level, so it's ridiculous to say he is.

1 or 2 more seasons you think will solidify him next to Shaq? That is also a ridiculous statement. Shaq is on his way to his 6th finals appearance, and possibly his 4th ring. Shaq was an MVP canidate in his 13th season as a pro, and very easily could get another ring in his 14th season as a pro. I in no way see Duncan being as good as Shaq was last year when he's in his 13th season, I also don't see him getting to the finals 3 more times before he's done.

I have to agree with this.

Hakeem was just better on both ends of the court than TD. Offensively, he shot at a higher clip, hit his FT's, and had a turnaround 15 foot jumper which was absolutely unstoppable. While Duncan is often very hard to stop, I just can't see him using and abusing all time Great C's like Robinson, Ewing, O'Neal in his prime shooting 55% in the playoffs dropping 35 a game like Hakeem did in his prime. Hakeem also didnt choke up at the FT line in the clutch.

Shaq was more dominant, especially at his peak. Shaq also won 3 of the 5 head to head playoff matchups against TD. In 2002 his D against Tim in the 4th Q's of game's was a huge factor in LA's winning. Let's also not forget that Shaq's first finals he faced Hakeem, a top 5 C of all time at his absolute peak. In TD's first finals, he faced the #8 seed Knicks. Shaq also lost to MJ in 96 and Malone in 97 and 98, the same Malone who was 2-0 against TD in the playoffs in 98 and 04.

Circumstance must be considered. Does Tim win 3 titles if he's drafted by Houston in the 80's and his first finals appearance he has to face the 86 Celtics?

It's no diss to Duncan to be third in that group. Duncan is clearly ahead of Ewing, KG, and DRob but over Hakeem and Shaq is a stretch.

I would say tossup between Hakeem and Shaq, though Hakeem's defensive prowess probably gives him a slight edge.

horry was asked last yr to rank hakeem, shaq, and TD and also ranked them:

1) hakeem
2) shaq
3) TD

which i think is right...

Including DRob in this group is absolutely ludicrous...

[Taco]

Rank these hall of famers (or future HOFs) when they were at their prime.

Shaquille O'Neal #4
David Robinson #2
Patrick Ewing #5
Tim Duncan #3
Hakeem Olajawon #1
Kevin Garnett #6

Duncan and Garnett may still be in their prime but they entered it some years ago.

[DirkAB]

I think I'd put Hakeem at the top. Followed by David. Then Shaq. Tim and KG aren't really big men, so I'm not ranking them, although if I was they'd still follow those 3. We're talking prime right, not entire careers?


You're putting Robinson above Shaq? You're a fool.

[MadDog73]

You're putting Robinson above Shaq? You're a fool.

Robinson in his prime owned Shaq in his prime.

Wasn't until Shaq got Kobe and Robinson got back trouble, that the Spurs had problems with them...

even then, 2003 was a great fucking year.

Man, I really screwed up earlier saying that Shaq > Tim in Shaq's prime... I honestly don't believe that. Tim > Shaq, always and forever.

[maddnezz]

David Robinson was as soft as a motherf$%ing grape. You can't rate him above Shaq, there is no comparison. If it wasn't for you guys tanking your season and prayin to the lottery gods for Duncan, you would still be without a championship. And you know it.
Until the finals are over, YOUR STILL WITHOUT A CHAMPIONSHIP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHA JERKHAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
:blah :fro :drunk

[maddnezz]

There's nothing "to handle" in that argument. He played through pain? Big deal, every player does at some point. Nobody was scared of playin the Admiral. Look how Malone punked him. If that was my head, Malone would have been in the ER the next game we played. I understand being homers, but damn, you can't argue the facts. Did you ever see anyone try and physically punk Shaq? hell no, and you won't....ever.
Charles Barkley punching Shaq in head on floor in Houston! Next? :fro

[maddnezz]

I like how you use the term "class" when you are trying to spin it to show that he was a "classy" man on the court while he was getting his brains beat in! LoL!

1) Malone used to punk him
2) Shaq punk'd him many times, in the media and on the court
3) He never even got to the finals until TD arrived
4) He had arguably one of the best physiques of any player in history, was 7'1 yet intimidated nobody. Unless it was a 6'2 guard going to the hole trying to shoot over him.
5) He pet shot was a face up jumpshot, minimal contact. He was scared to bang.

That's a grape to me. Spurs fans you know this, quit trying to defend it!
Sounds a lot like Dirks game minus the 3 pointer don't it??? :rolleyes

[Supergirl]

As much as people on this board don't like Shaq, you can't argue with 3 NBA titles. He and Duncan have to top the list, just because they've proved it. Duncan gets the edge because he's more athletic and versatile. The last two are both the only two without titles, and KG gets the edge for the same reason - more athletic and versatile than Patrick Ewing.

1. Duncan
2. Shaq
3. Hakeem
4. D-Rob
5. KG
6. Patrick Ewing

[DirkAB]

Robinson in his prime owned Shaq in his prime.

Wasn't until Shaq got Kobe and Robinson got back trouble, that the Spurs had problems with them...

even then, 2003 was a great fucking year.

Man, I really screwed up earlier saying that Shaq > Tim in Shaq's prime... I honestly don't believe that. Tim > Shaq, always and forever.

You're a straight up HOMER with capital letters. Shaq was the most unguardable player to ever play in the modern era, at one time triple teams couldn't even stop him from scoring. Has anybody else in the modern age commanded such attention on the defensive end, and still been unstoppable? Not even close. David Robinson was a fucking role player for his second title, and he wasn't even the best player on his team during his first title, and you are discounting Shaq because of Kobe! Laughable. Did you drink a 12-pack of Duff before that post Homer?

[MadDog73]

You're a straight up HOMER with capital letters. Shaq was the most unguardable player to ever play in the modern era, at one time triple teams couldn't even stop him from scoring. Has anybody else in the modern age commanded such attention on the defensive end, and still been unstoppable? Not even close. David Robinson was a fucking role player for his second title, and he wasn't even the best player on his team during his first title, and you are discounting Shaq because of Kobe! Laughable. Did you drink a 12-pack of Duff before that post Homer?


Robinson wasn't in his prime then, asshole.

Read the topic. Then respond.

Shaq didn't win shit without Kobe either... that's why both Robinson and Shaq are on the bottom below Tim and Hakeem, the two best "big men" on that list. Or do you think Shaq could beat either of those two one-on-one?

Look back at this thread, you'll see I have another list for Final Appearances, and Shaq tops that list. But that doesn't mean he's a better player than Robinson in his prime, where he frequently owned Shaq, (as was owned by Hakeem in the 1994 Finals). I do believe Hakeem owned Shaq in 1995, as well.

In any case, David and Tim stopped Shaq and Kobe twice. 1999, and 2003. Sure, we got our ass kicked in 2001 and 2002, but look back, and you'll see it was Kobe killing the Spurs more often than Shaq.

[Phenomanul]

You're a straight up HOMER with capital letters. Shaq was the most unguardable player to ever play in the modern era, at one time triple teams couldn't even stop him from scoring. Has anybody else in the modern age commanded such attention on the defensive end, and still been unstoppable? Not even close. David Robinson was a fucking role player for his second title, and he wasn't even the best player on his team during his first title, and you are discounting Shaq because of Kobe! Laughable. Did you drink a 12-pack of Duff before that post Homer?

You know who killed us in those series against the Lakers in '01 and '02????

It definately wasn't Shaq....

It was Kobe with a capital 'K' for 'Killer of Spurs'..... he played with that attitude as well, once saying... "we need to go down there [SA] and rip their hearts out..."

Shaq didn't even come in a close second... it was Mr. 0.4, Derek F'n Fisher.... I believe he was like 15 of 20 from the 3 point line in one of those series...

Now why was the supposed 'most unstoppable force' rendered a role player in his teams' dismantling of the Spurs???
I'll answer that for you.... cause of the defensive prowess of one David Robinson, a hurt one no less...

At least read up on your history before you come in here blazing pistols left and right... granted you are entitled to your opinion... but don't call others fools if they don't agree with it.

[DirkAB]

Robinson wasn't in his prime then, asshole.

Read the topic. Then respond.

Shaq didn't win shit without Kobe either... that's why both Robinson and Shaq are on the bottom below Tim and Hakeem, the two best "big men" on that list. Or do you think Shaq could beat either of those two one-on-one?

Look back at this thread, you'll see I have another list for Final Appearances, and Shaq tops that list. But that doesn't mean he's a better player than Robinson in his prime, where he frequently owned Shaq, (as was owned by Hakeem in the 1994 Finals). I do believe Hakeem owned Shaq in 1995, as well.

You act like Shaq played against these guys in his prime, he was a young player. And of course I think he could beat them one-on-one in his prime, double teams couldn't stop the guy for christ's sake, neither did triple teams. I wouldn't argue with anybody putting Shaq below Hakeem, but to put him below Robinson or Duncan is asinine.

[MadDog73]

You act like Shaq played against these guys in his prime, he was a young player. And of course I think he could beat them one-on-one in his prime, double teams couldn't stop the guy for christ's sake, neither did triple teams. I wouldn't argue with anybody putting Shaq below Hakeem, but to put him below Robinson or Duncan is asinine.


So, how did the Spurs stop both Kobe and Shaq in 1999 and 2003, huh?

Double teams can't stop Tim now, and certainly couldn't stop Robinson in his Prime.

[fyatuk]

You're a straight up HOMER with capital letters. Shaq was the most unguardable player to ever play in the modern era, at one time triple teams couldn't even stop him from scoring. Has anybody else in the modern age commanded such attention on the defensive end, and still been unstoppable? Not even close. David Robinson was a fucking role player for his second title, and he wasn't even the best player on his team during his first title, and you are discounting Shaq because of Kobe! Laughable. Did you drink a 12-pack of Duff before that post Homer?

Shaq's a role player too. His role is to score. Robinson's role was always to be the anchor of the defense first. After Duncan arrive, we got to see Robinson when he could truly focus on defense and rebounding without having to worry about also being the anchor for the offense as well, and he was amazing even then on defense and rebounding. And that was after a serious back injury (and if you've ever had one, you know you are never the same after).

Shaq is offensively the most dominant big man in decades. Dream and Admiral (at least) were both more dominant overall.

And that's provided you discount Shaq getting an insane amount of calls/no-calls throughout his carreer while neither Dream or Admiral got that benefit.

In their primes, Admiral and Dream win out. They were their teams during their primes. They were truly the anchors on both sides of the ball, and were ranked near the top in just about every category.

Shaq tops them offensively in his prime, but he had no-where near their impact on the defensive end.

[MadDog73]

BTW with the players given, my top 3 would go like this:

1. Shaq - during his prime he is the most dominant force in the modern NBA
2. Dream - I believe he's the 2nd most skilled center ever (Kareem #1)
3. Duncan - greatest footwork and fundamentals ever


How can Shaq be "the most dominant force in the modern NBA", and only have 3 titles?

Wouldn't he be equal to Michael Jordan or some shit?

At the very least, Tim Duncan = Shaq.

Both have 3 Finals MVPs and 3 Championships. Difference is, Tim did it with entirely different sets of players. (the 1999 Spurs vs the 2005 Spurs)

One reason I'm rooting for the Mavs, is I don't want Shaq to get his 4th Ring...

[DirkAB]

You know who killed us in those series against the Lakers in '01 and '02????

It definately wasn't Shaq....

It was Kobe with a capital 'K' for 'Killer of Spurs'..... he played with that attitude as well, once saying... "we need to go down there [SA] and rip their hearts out..."

Shaq didn't even come in a close second... it was Mr. 0.4, Derek F'n Fisher.... I believe he was like 15 of 20 from the 3 point line in one of those series...

Now why was the supposed 'most unstoppable force' rendered a role player in his teams' dismantling of the Spurs???
I'll answer that for you.... cause of the defensive prowess of one David Robinson, a hurt one no less...

At least read up on your history before you come in here blazing pistols left and right... granted you are entitled to your opinion... but don't call others fools if they don't agree with it.

Oh, I didn't realize that Kobe was the leader of that Lakers team, sorry I must have been watching a different NBA than you. No hold on, you're wrong because I do remember, Shaq was the most unstoppable player in the league for 3 years in a row, and that was his team. Anybody that claims otherwise is fucking moron. I don't give a shit how the series went agains the Spurs, they were 4-0 and 4-1 series! You act like Kobe bailed them out against you guys, fuckin' ridiculous. And if I remember correctly anyways, he did kill you in the '01 series, and it wasn't like the Spurs shut him down in '02.

[fyatuk]

Oh, I didn't realize that Kobe was the leader of that Lakers team, sorry I must have been watching a different NBA than you. No hold on, you're wrong because I do remember, Shaq was the most unstoppable player in the league for 3 years in a row, and that was his team. Anybody that claims otherwise is fucking moron. I don't give a shit how the series went agains the Spurs, they were 4-0 and 4-1 series! You act like Kobe bailed them out against you guys, fuckin' ridiculous. And if I remember correctly anyways, he did kill you in the '01 series, and it wasn't like the Spurs shut him down in '02.

So you respond to an entire post about how Shaq was the 3rd best player on his team during a particular series, mainly because of Robinson's defense, after you proclaim that no one could stop him, not even with triple teams...

And you don't care? He was just proving your point wrong. Robinson could stop him once he no longer had to worry about carrying the offensive load. Obviously Shaq wasn't "unstoppable" since he was when he played the Spurs. So now we know, you don't care about things that hurt your case. Got it.

And in case you haven't realized it, all you really needed to stop Shaq was someone who was big and strong enough to muscle him out of the paint. Granted, those were few and far between (Antoine Carr did a remarkably good job on him late in his carreer).

Shaqs game was pure muscle and no skill. Only reason he even approached "unstoppable" was because the NBA needed a new superstar.

[DirkAB]

So, how did the Spurs stop both Kobe and Shaq in 1999 and 2003, huh?

Double teams can't stop Tim now, and certainly couldn't stop Robinson in his Prime.

I really don't think that 2003 was Shaq's prime, but he still put up huge numbers. You guys won that series because you shut down their supporting cast. And in 1999, how do you think they held him? They had twin towers close to their prime. Do you think if the tables were turned that Robinson or Duncan could go through twin towers? Besides for going against twin towers he still played pretty impressively.

[MadDog73]

Oh, I didn't realize that Kobe was the leader of that Lakers team, sorry I must have been watching a different NBA than you. No hold on, you're wrong because I do remember, Shaq was the most unstoppable player in the league for 3 years in a row, and that was his team. Anybody that claims otherwise is fucking moron. I don't give a shit how the series went agains the Spurs, they were 4-0 and 4-1 series! You act like Kobe bailed them out against you guys, fuckin' ridiculous. And if I remember correctly anyways, he did kill you in the '01 series, and it wasn't like the Spurs shut him down in '02.


And we swept Kobe and Shaq in 1999. So.... at the very least, Spurs = Lakers. Tim and David = Kobe and Shaq (2 and 2 in playoffs)
Here, let me show you:

1999 Spurs sweep Lakers, Spurs win Championship
2000 Tim injured, Spurs lose to Suns. Lakers win Championship.
2001 Lakers sweep Spurs, Lakers win Championship
2002 Lakers beat Spurs 4-1, Lakers win Championship
2003 Spurs beat Lakers 4-2, Spurs win Championship (David retires)
2004 Lakers beat Spurs 4-2, but Pistons win Championship (no David)
2005 No Lakers. Spurs win Championship.

If anything, this shows how important David was to the Spurs.

We did not beat the Lakers without David. And when David was hurt, we lost to the Lakers.

[MadDog73]

I really don't think that 2003 was Shaq's prime, but he still put up huge numbers. You guys won that series because you shut down their supporting cast. And in 1999, how do you think they held him? They had twin towers close to their prime. Do you think if the tables were turned that Robinson or Duncan could go through twin towers? Besides for going against twin towers he still played pretty impressively.


:lol He got swept...

Wasn't until Robinson's back started acting up, Shaq and Kobe won a few series.

[DirkAB]

:lol He got swept...

Wasn't until Robinson's back started acting up, Shaq and Kobe won a few series.

I didn't realize that we were basing this on what the players may or may have not accomplished if they hadn't been injured, my bad. Tell me more about the amazing things that Robinson would have done if he wouldn't have gotten injured, please? How about Shaq's feet? Tell me more about what could have been. Jerk off.

[DirkAB]

So you respond to an entire post about how Shaq was the 3rd best player on his team during a particular series, mainly because of Robinson's defense, after you proclaim that no one could stop him, not even with triple teams...


Sorry didn't read past that point there. If you really think that Shaq was the third best player on his team that series then you should just leave this conversation, you and anybody else that believes that is just wasting our time. Look as the box scores before you make jackass statements like that.

[MadDog73]

I didn't realize that we were basing this on what the players may or may have not accomplished if they hadn't been injured, my bad. Tell me more about the amazing things that Robinson would have done if he wouldn't have gotten injured, please? How about Shaq's feet? Tell me more about what could have been. Jerk off.

OK, fine. Forget the injury stuff. We still have Spurs with 3 Championships and Lakers with 3.

How that proves that Shaq > Tim or David is beyond me.

[DirkAB]

OK, fine. Forget the injury stuff. We still have Spurs with 3 Championships and Lakers with 3.

How that proves that Shaq > Tim or David is beyond me.

Well, Shaq is now in his 6th finals, and Duncan and Robinson have 5 between the two of them. Shaq's teams are always a contender, and Robinsons were not. Duncan is a fine player that could very well reach Shaq's level as far as a total career, but he hasn't yet. As far as in their primes, Shaq was so dominant that he caused rule changes, him and Wilt are the only guys to do that to my knowlege.

[DirkAB]

Shaqs game was pure muscle and no skill. Only reason he even approached "unstoppable" was because the NBA needed a new superstar.

I actually went back and read your entire post, and totally regret it! This was all we need to complete this thread, the jackass conspiracy theory! Sweet, this thread is now complete.

[JET_31]

Sorry spurs fans, I have to say shaq>duncan>robinson, but they are all on my top 10 big men of all time.

[MadDog73]

Sorry spurs fans, I have to say shaq>duncan>robinson, but they are all on my top 10 big men of all time.


So, Robinson > Hakeem???

[JET_31]

So, Robinson > Hakeem???

no, people have tried to make the argument that robinson or duncan is better than shaq. Shaq>Duncan>Robinson wasn't supposed to include Hakeem. Hakeem vs Shaq is too close to call.

[Phenomanul]

Well, Shaq is now in his 6th finals, and Duncan and Robinson have 5 between the two of them. Shaq's teams are always a contender, and Robinsons were not. Duncan is a fine player that could very well reach Shaq's level as far as a total career, but he hasn't yet. As far as in their primes, Shaq was so dominant that he caused rule changes, him and Wilt are the only guys to do that to my knowlege.


You mean like not calling Shaq's go-to move an offensive foul... I see. :rolleyes

Catch the ball, lower your shoulder and plow through your defender... Last time I checked this was basketball not football...

[MadDog73]

no, people have tried to make the argument that robinson or duncan is better than shaq. Shaq>Duncan>Robinson wasn't supposed to include Hakeem. Hakeem vs Shaq is too close to call.

Why?
Hakeem dominated Shaq in the 1995 Finals, did he not?

But, Tim has three rings, while Hakeem only has 2.

Duncan > Hakeem?
Hakeem > Robinson
Hakeem > Shaq?


The problem is, there are so many ways to judge this.

Who is the best defensive player? The best offensive player? The best all-around player? The best team player? The player with the most Championships? The player with the most Final appearances?

And, which of these count to make you the best player?

Found this: http://www.nba.com/rockets/history/Hakeem_Olajuwon_The_NBAs_Bes-91094-34.html

Makes a good case that Hakeem was the best big man in the 1990s.

Which makes me wonder: If we're seriously going to answer this question, we need to establish the "prime" of all these players to compare them as fairly as possible.

[fyatuk]

Sorry didn't read past that point there. If you really think that Shaq was the third best player on his team that series then you should just leave this conversation, you and anybody else that believes that is just wasting our time. Look as the box scores before you make jackass statements like that.

Reading comprehension. I really didn't say what I thought of Shaq. And I wouldn't since I honestly don't remember those series very well. The post you had responded to was making that claim, and instead of refuting it you simply responded with "I don't care".

That was the point of my post, which apparently went right over your head.

[fyatuk]

I actually went back and read your entire post, and totally regret it! This was all we need to complete this thread, the jackass conspiracy theory! Sweet, this thread is now complete.

You can't honestly tell me that for the most of his carreer, even in his rookie year, Shaq didn't get away with just about everything. It's only the last couple years that they actually started calling him for some of the crap he's been doing for over a decade.

Shaq's unstoppable offense his entire carreer has been get away with a charge and get away with an off-arm hook/push.

It's not a conspiracy, its a fact. It's accepted that superstars like Dirk, Jordan, Shaq, LeBron, Duncan, etc, are going to get away with a lot of crap. Dream and Admiral didn't get as big a treatment as Shaq, though they were shown favoritism.

[fyatuk]

You mean like not calling Shaq's go-to move an offensive foul... I see. :rolleyes

Catch the ball, lower your shoulder and plow through your defender... Last time I checked this was basketball not football...

You forgot his 2nd favorite move. Hooking the defender and throwing him a couple feet away during a spin move.

[DirkAB]

This thread has really gone south, when in doubt bitch about the refs, that's what a lot people on this board do best. Must every thread turn into a bitch session about the officiating? It's pathetic.

Anybody that discounts Shaq's dominance and attributes it to the officiating is a seeping vagina, give the guy credit for christ's sake. His opponents got away with as many fouls on him as he got away with, and if you disagree you are biased. I'm Kings fan and he sent my team out of the playoffs how many straight years? He got away with many fouls in those games but at least I realize that the Kings probably got away with as many if not more on him. Double teams, triple teams, and fouling the guy was the only way that he could be halfway contained. The guy took more of a beating than any other player in the history of the game.

[DirkAB]

Reading comprehension. I really didn't say what I thought of Shaq. And I wouldn't since I honestly don't remember those series very well. The post you had responded to was making that claim, and instead of refuting it you simply responded with "I don't care".

That was the point of my post, which apparently went right over your head.

What are you some sort of yes man? Jumping into the debate without giving you own opinion just to brag on somebody elses? WTF is that? Bring something to the table or quit wasting our time, and something meaningful not this conspiracy theory BS.

[Bartzini]

Shaq is huge and clogs up the paint if he is down in it. That is his defense and offense in a nutshell..when all it takes is a 2 inch jump to put the ball in the hole, and you are so much stronger and larger in pure mass than anyone around you, its easy...


I personally don't see him as being an all around good basketball player, only because his only asset is his extreme size.


If i was over 7 ft tall and as enormous as him...id have the same record he did, anyone would. Just walk under the basket...stick your hand up..when you get the ball, place it in the cylinder.

It is not like he has some elite foot work, or dribbling skills, or bonafied post moves...his post moves are bull down your defender to make space (foul) then see above...

Or hook the defender with your offhand to move him out of the way and then see above...

Give him the basketball outside of reach from a layup and he is done...he tries to shoot, or dribble and he is coughing the ball up, or bricking...

He cannot make a free throw...

He is (or was at one point) not very team oriented..



Those are all reasons Tim, Hakeem, Kareem, David, etc..are better than shaq.


If you can keep shaq away from the basket, he is done..problem is he weighs 350lbs, so its fairly hard to do so...if you call this great basketball skill...then yea..he is good.

shaq is a force to be dealt with, but not because he has some pure basketball skill...




btw: to the kings fan, just because someone's opinion differs from yours, doesn't automatically make them a dumbass, or a jerkoff, or whatever else you have called people...All calling names does is show your own insecurity and ignorance....


btwX2: This is my opinion as a basketball fan, not because i pretend to know all, as i am far from it...so please shoot it all full of holes..and tell me why i am wrong.

[fyatuk]

What are you some sort of yes man? Jumping into the debate without giving you own opinion just to brag on somebody elses? WTF is that? Bring something to the table or quit wasting our time, and something meaningful not this conspiracy theory BS.

LOL. You can see my opinion about the topic of this thread a while ago.

I was pointing out that it was weird for you to completely ignore someone countering your arguments. You backed out of the debate and claimed victory. That's tweaked.

You give Shaq WAY too much credit. I'll admit I probably don't give him enough. He's had a more favored relationship with the refs than any of the others being talked about in this thread, and its okay. If you think the highly marketable superstars don't get those benefits, you need to pay more attention. It annoys me more with Shaq than anyone else because Shaq is comparatively not very skilled.

Well, his spin move is very nifty, and he never really needed to hook for it (it was that good in his early Laker days). But he always did, massively, and got away with it. That's about it. He couldn't hit any shot except slam's and layups. He didn't have many post moves. His concept of defense was mostly leaning against people. If he actually had those skills he would easily have been the most dominant big man ever.

But since he didn't, his overall impact for his teams is less than Dream, Admiral, and Timmy's.

He's actually been more impressive the last couple years since he's developed a good hook shot, a short jump shot, and gotten much better at help defense. Put those skills into his prime and bam.

[DirkAB]

So because he has less skill than these other guys, that somehow makes him less great? That is like saying that it was less impressive what Jordan did because he was able to jump higher than everyone else, or it isn't so impressive what AI does because his speed and quickness advantage. This isn't a debate as to who displayed the most pure basketball skill, it is about who was the best. Last time I checked speed,size and stregnth are tremendous assets on the basketball floor. I don't understand how anybody can sit there and say what Shaq did doesn't count because he was so big and strong.

Look at there career numbers, accomplishments, and overall success and tell me if anybody besides a Spurs fans is going to honestly say that Robinson was a better player. Same thing can be applied to Duncan so far, but Duncan at least still has a shot at reaching his level. Bottom line is I don't give a damn what it looked like, style counts for nothing in wins and losses, call it non-skilled or call it whatever you want, he is more successful than anybody else in this discussion and there is no debating that.

[MadDog73]

he is more successful than anybody else in this discussion and there is no debating that.

Actually, going by Championships and MVPs, he's not. At this moment, he is equal to Tim Duncan, not greater. (making the Finals doesn't count, you have to win it, right?)

Hakeem and Robinson are tied.

So, just going by Rings,

1. Tim and Shaq
2. Hakeem and Robinson

At least with Hakeen and Robinson, you have a series where Hakeem owned Robinson, so you can make the argument that Hakeem > Robinson. (I don't count regular season games).

If Shaq wins this year, then he'll be on top until Tim can overtake him.

[DirkAB]

Actually, he's not. At this moment, he is equal to Tim Duncan, not greater. (making the Finals doesn't count, you have to win it, right?)

Hakeem and Robinson are tied.

So, just going by Rings,

1. Tim and Shaq
2. Hakeem and Robinson

At least with Hakeen and Robinson, you have a series where Hakeem owned Robinson, so you can make the argument that Hakeem > Robinson. (I don't count regular season games).

If Shaq wins this year, then he'll be on top until Tim can overtake him.

Oh making the finals 3 more times doesn't count for anything? You wouldn't be saying that if the Spurs had made the finals and lost to the Pistons in '04, or if they made it this year and lost in '06. Putting your team in position to win a title by making the finals has way more value than being sent home in the 2nd round, wouldn't you say? If not, then let's just look at career statistics:

Duncan's stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/d/duncati01.html)

Robinson's stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/r/robinda01.html)

Shaq's stats (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/o/onealsh01.html)

[fyatuk]

Off NBA.com

David Robinson:

2 NBA Championships, 1995 MVP, 1990 ROY, 1992 DPOY, IBM award 90, 91, 94, 95, 96. rebounding title 1991, blocked shots in 1992, scoring in 94. 4 times all NBA 1st team, 2 times second team. 3 times 3rd team. All defense team: 4, 4. 10 time All-star. 15 times player of the week, 4 times player of the month.

Carreer avgs: Scoring: 21.1, Rebounding (o/t): 3.1/10.6, assits: 2.5, steals: 1.4, blocks: 3, PF: 3, TO: 2.45, FG%: 51.8, FT%: 73.6, MPG: 34.7

Notes: Robinson and Kareem are the only two people to win Rebounding, Blocked Shot, and Scoring titles during their carreers. Robinson is the only player to be named All-NBA and All-NBA defensive teams for first 7 years.

Shaq:

3 titles, 2000 MVP, 3 finals MVPs, 93 ROY, All NBA: 4,2,3, All defense: 0,2,0, Nine time All-star, 2 time all-star MVP, Scoring title: 95, 00, FG% champ 5 times, 1 IBM award, 1 time player of the month

Carreer avgs: Scoring: 26.3, Rebounding (o/t): 3.8/11.8, Assists: 2.8, steals: 0.66, Blocks: 2.5, PF: 3.4, TO: 2.87, FG%: 58, FT%: 52.8, MPG: 37.0


Robinson certainly looks better to me, or at least close enough to be debateable.

[MadDog73]

Oh making the finals 3 more times doesn't count for anything? You wouldn't be saying that if the Spurs had made the finals and lost to the Pistons in '04, or if they made it this year and lost in '06. Putting your team in position to win a title by making the finals has way more value than being sent home in the 2nd round, wouldn't you say?

Not if the team you're eliminated by goes on to win the Finals. Not our fault we're in the same conference as the Lakers and Rockets. How many times would the Spurs be in the Finals if we were in the East?



If not, then let's just look at career statistics:

There's more to a Champion then Points per Game.

Tim and David are unselfish heroes. They do what it takes to win, not just score lots of points.

In the end, all that matters is the Ring.

[DirkAB]

Off NBA.com

David Robinson:

2 NBA Championships, 1995 MVP, 1990 ROY, 1992 DPOY, IBM award 90, 91, 94, 95, 96. rebounding title 1991, blocked shots in 1992, scoring in 94. 4 times all NBA 1st team, 2 times second team. 3 times 3rd team. All defense team: 4, 4. 10 time All-star. 15 times player of the week, 4 times player of the month.

Carreer avgs: Scoring: 21.1, Rebounding (o/t): 3.1/10.6, assits: 2.5, steals: 1.4, blocks: 3, PF: 3, TO: 2.45, FG%: 51.8, FT%: 73.6, MPG: 34.7

Notes: Robinson and Kareem are the only two people to win Rebounding, Blocked Shot, and Scoring titles during their carreers. Robinson is the only player to be named All-NBA and All-NBA defensive teams for first 7 years.

Shaq:

3 titles, 2000 MVP, 3 finals MVPs, 93 ROY, All NBA: 4,2,3, All defense: 0,2,0, Nine time All-star, 2 time all-star MVP, Scoring title: 95, 00, FG% champ 5 times, 1 IBM award, 1 time player of the month

Carreer avgs: Scoring: 26.3, Rebounding (o/t): 3.8/11.8, Assists: 2.8, steals: 0.66, Blocks: 2.5, PF: 3.4, TO: 2.87, FG%: 58, FT%: 52.8, MPG: 37.0


Robinson certainly looks better to me, or at least close enough to be debateable.

Half those awards are arbitrary, and I could give shit about them. Tell me, if they started the NBA over every season and they redrafted players every year, from '99-'03 what player would every single team pick first? Shaquille O'Neal guaranteed. Would you disagree with that? That is a more accurate indication of who the MVP is, when the day is over who do you want on your team. Who can't be stopped.

I seriously can't believe that somebody actually believes that Robinson is better than Shaq, Spurs fan or not that is absolutely fuckin' ridiculous. Give some respect to the guy, his dominance should have earned your respect. I respect Robinson, but come on, we're talking about Shaq. Robinson couldn't get his team to the finals until he was the 2nd best player on the team. And don't act like he didn't have any talent around him, AJ, Rodman, Del Negro and company were a pretty damn good supporting cast. Robinson didn't have the killer instinct that Shaq and Duncan possess, not even close.

[DirkAB]

Not if the team you're eliminated by goes on to win the Finals. Not our fault we're in the same conference as the Lakers and Rockets. How many times would the Spurs be in the Finals if we were in the East?



There's more to a Champion then Points per Game.

Tim and David are unselfish heroes. They do what it takes to win, not just score lots of points.

In the end, all that matters is the Ring.

Oh so it isn't David Robinson's or Tim Duncan's fault that they had to face Shaq's or Hakeem's teams? Well that I'll give you, but I doesn't help your side of the arguement.

How many times would the Spurs make the finals if they were in the East? What in the fuck does that have to do with this conversation? Seriously? If it is because Shaq has made it to the finals 2 times in the East I don't think that helps your side either. He went through Jordan's Bulls and a great Pacers team to get there in '95, and through the Pistons this year, is that not impressive to you?

So Robinson and Duncan are unselfish heros? What does that make Shaq a selfish villan? Seriously, that is one of the queerest and cheesiest lines I've ever heard! Unselfish heros! Do the stats really show that? I mean Duncan avgerages more assist and is probably a better passer, but how did you come up with Robinson being so unselfish? Shaq has averaged more assists over the same number of years.

You'll never listen to reason because you are such a HOMER! Seriously, that unselfish heros line said it all. You villanize Shaq becaue he and his team have gotten the better of the Spurs over the years. If you could take your unselfish heros' dicks out of your mouth for a couple of seconds you might see what I'm talking about.

[MissAllThat]

You're putting Robinson above Shaq? You're a fool.

I said in his prime. In his prime he was better. He was one of the few players got get a quadruple double.

[DirkAB]

I could go along with what you are saying up until the And don't act... line.

Vinny Del Negro?
Avery Johnson?
Dennis Rodman was a one dimensional rebounder.

That is a terrible supporting cast.

Shaquille and Duncan don't have killer instinct.

Both usually defer to their guards in crunch time.

My bad, they also had Sean elliot in his absolute prime, and Chuck Person. You're telling me that Del Negro, AJ, Rodman, Elliot, and Person is a terrible supporting cast? Well they aren't great, but I think that they are plenty good.

Shaq and TD don't have killer instinct? They are both terrible free throw shooters, and yet I've seen them both shoot FT very well during huge games at very clutch moments. They both took over a games whenever they wanted to in their prime, which Duncan might still be in, not sure.

[DirkAB]

I said in his prime. In his prime he was better. He was one of the few players got get a quadruple double.

So that one game that Robinson got a quadruple double put it over the edge? That one regular season game that meant shit in the grand scheme of things?

Nate Thurmond had one too, so does that make him better than all those other guys? Accept for Robinson of course, and don't forget Hakeem had one also, and almost a second but he was 1 assist shy.

[kris]

My bad, they also had Sean elliot in his absolute prime, and Chuck Person. You're telling me that Del Negro, AJ, Rodman, Elliot, and Person is a terrible supporting cast? Well they aren't great, but I think that they are plenty good.

Shaq and TD don't have killer instinct? They are both terrible free throw shooters, and yet I've seen them both shoot FT very well during huge games at very clutch moments. They both took over a games whenever they wanted to in their prime, which Duncan might still be in, not sure.


They don't really. As much as you hear them being able to make shots "when it counts," they miss probably as much as they do regularly. I think everybody just notices more when they make them in a tight situation. I have no stats to back that up. Also, if you watched the Lakers and Heat as well as the Spurs, you'd know that Manu, Kobe, and Wade were usually the ones with the ball in their hands to shoot - not Shaq or Duncan.


Sean Elliott in his prime hit All-Star status but he was never close to being a superstar like a Kobe, Wade, Penny, etc. Elliott was a nice player, but definitely not a difference maker. I don't know if you watched Chuck Person when he was a Spur, but by the time he got here he could barely walk his back was hurting so much. He was pretty much just chucking 3's out there. Avery was always a very determined player, but he usually got torched on the defensive end because he couldn't jump and was so short. He also wasn't very quick for as small as he was. Vinny Del Negro was supposedly a pure shooter that couldn't hit threes to save his life. He was about 50% if you hit him in stride for an open J. Otherwise, teams could easily make him a non-factor.

[MissAllThat]

Must every thread turn into a bitch session about the officiating? It's pathetic.

Not that I'm condoning turning this thread into a whine about the refs one, but perhaps the real reason that conversations about anything related to basketball so often turn into ref complaining sessions is because the refs in the NBA are beyond atrocious. Fans of every team can agree to that one fact. I'm not gonna say that they're in favor of one team or player at all times, but you know they suck. It is pretty pathetic that the league is continuing to allow this. If they wanted all the complaining about refs to cease they'd get rid of the horrible refs and get some new ones, along with actually holding refs accountable for their horrid calls. Stop protecting them as much as they do. They're obviously not doing their jobs right.

[strangeweather]

Oh, I didn't realize that Kobe was the leader of that Lakers team, sorry I must have been watching a different NBA than you. No hold on, you're wrong because I do remember, Shaq was the most unstoppable player in the league for 3 years in a row, and that was his team. Anybody that claims otherwise is fucking moron. I don't give a shit how the series went agains the Spurs, they were 4-0 and 4-1 series! You act like Kobe bailed them out against you guys, fuckin' ridiculous. And if I remember correctly anyways, he did kill you in the '01 series, and it wasn't like the Spurs shut him down in '02.
Shaq was a terrific player then -- he was incredible. But if you watch the Spurs-Lakers series in 2001 and 2002, Kobe was the one we couldn't stop. Shaq had a very good series, especially in '01, but was held below his season averages both years. Kobe was unstoppable in '01 and clearly better than Shaq in '02. Over the 9 games of the two Spurs series, Shaq managed to break 30 once, and was held below 20 twice. Kobe broke 30 3 times (once with 45 points), and was never held below 20.

Now I'm not going to call "pwn3d!!!" or anything, but David could defend Shaq, even when he was injured and past his prime. Kobe was the one we had trouble defending.

2001:

Game 1:
Shaq: 11-22 28 pts
Kobe: 19-35 45 pts

Game 2:
Shaq: 8-21 19 pts
Kobe: 11-24 28 pts

Game 3:
Shaq: 16-23 35 pts
Kobe: 14-27 36 pts

Game 4:
Shaq: 11-19 26 pts
Kobe: 10-19 24 pts

Overall:
Shaq vs Spurs: 46-85, 54.1%, 27.0 pts
2000-01 regular season averages: 57.2%, 28.7 pts

Kobe vs Spurs: 54-105, 51.4%, 33.25 pts.
2000-01 regular season averages: 46.4%, 28.5 pts


2002:

Game 1:
Shaq: 9-22 23 pts
Kobe: 8-18 20 pts

Game 2:
Shaq: 7-16 19 pts
Kobe: 12-25 26 pts

Game 3:
Shaq: 10-20 22 pts
Kobe: 15-31 31 pts

Game 4:
Shaq: 9-18 22 pts
Kobe: 10-27 28 pts

Game 5:
Shaq: 7-18 21 pts
Kobe: 10-20 26 pts

Overall:
Shaq vs Spurs: 42-94 44.7% 21.4 pts
2001-02 regular season averages: 57.9%, 27.2 pts

Kobe vs Spurs: 55-121 45.4% 26.2 pts
2001-02 regular season averages: 46.9%, 25.2 pts

[DirkAB]

Not that I'm condoning turning this thread into a whine about the refs one, but perhaps the real reason that conversations about anything related to basketball so often turn into ref complaining sessions is because the refs in the NBA are beyond atrocious. Fans of every team can agree to that one fact. I'm not gonna say that they're in favor of one team or player at all times, but you know they suck. It is pretty pathetic that the league is continuing to allow this. If they wanted all the complaining about refs to cease they'd get rid of the horrible refs and get some new ones, along with actually holding refs accountable for their horrid calls. Stop protecting them as much as they do. They're obviously not doing their jobs right.

Yeah, because officiating the NBA would be such an easy task, right? I mean you could probably do a better job. Come on, it is a difficult job, and a lot of those calls could go either way even after looking at replay. I agree that it could be better, but I have an appreciation for how difficult their job must be. My point was about how people pull the ref card out pretty quick on this board, especially when they seem to be losing an arguement. The officiating has been this way for a long time, but I bet this complaining is a relatively new thing to this board, at least to the degree that it is at, but I could be wrong.

[MissAllThat]

So that one game that Robinson got a quadruple double put it over the edge? That one regular season game that meant shit in the grand scheme of things?

Nate Thurmond had one too, so does that make him better than all those other guys? Accept for Robinson of course, and don't forget Hakeem had one also, and almost a second but he was 1 assist shy.

No, not that one game. There were several instances to prove that Robinson was the better player in his prime. I've seen them all play. That's why I went with Hakeem as #1 and Robinson as #2. Shaq got shut down by Ben Wallace in the 2004 playoffs and going by your logic that would mean that Wallace is better than all of them which I guess would look like this Wallace>Shaq>Duncan>Robinson. Pretty ridiculous if you as me. Shaq is not the reason all of his teams are getting to the finals. Yes, he's part of it, but Shaq alone is not the reason. Take Penny Hardaway away from the Magic and he probably wouldn't have made the Finals in '95. Take Kobe away from the Laker teams of 2000-2002, and they don't make the Finals. Take Wade away this year, and they don't make the finals. Kobe was to Shaq what Duncan was to Robinson. That one missing piece they needed to finally win an NBA title, and with both of them the missing piece was so good that they won more than one together. I'm not saying it makes Shaq a horrible player to have needed Kobe to win a championship, because it doesn't. Just like it doesn't make Robinson hany less of a player to have needed Duncan. They're both great players. I'm just giving David the slight edge. The finals appearance/championships argument is pointless because if that were the only thing to take into account, you'd have to put Shaq above Hakeem as the best of the 3 and well thats just not true at all.

[MissAllThat]

Yeah, because officiating the NBA would be such an easy task, right? I mean you could probably do a better job. Come on, it is a difficult job, and a lot of those calls could go either way even after looking at replay. I agree that it could be better, but I have an appreciation for how difficult their job must be. My point was about how people pull the ref card out pretty quick on this board, especially when they seem to be losing an arguement. The officiating has been this way for a long time, but I bet this complaining is a relatively new thing to this board, at least to the degree that it is at, but I could be wrong.

Could I do a better job? Right now if I just went and tried the job on a whim? No. If I had spent my whole life in training to become an NBA ref? Probably. I'm not the only one saying they're horrible. It's people all across the NBA, from fans, to coaches & players, to writers and commentators. Everybody sees that there is something wrong. I'm sure some calls are easy to get wrong, and I'm not expecting them to be perfect. But I would like to see them be right 75-80% of the time as opposed to the 50-55% that they're at right now. Lots of jobs are hard. Being an NBA coach is hard, but if a guy isn't doing a good job at it you know what happens? They get scrutinized by the teams fans and the media, and then they get fired. Thats how the world works. If you're not doing a good job, you get fired. Why are refs all of a sudden above this?

[DirkAB]

Shaq was a terrific player then -- he was incredible. But if you watch the Spurs-Lakers series in 2001 and 2002, Kobe was the one we couldn't stop. Shaq had a very good series, especially in '01, but was held below his season averages both years. Kobe was unstoppable in '01 and clearly better than Shaq in '02. Over the 9 games of the two Spurs series, Shaq managed to break 30 once, and was held below 20 twice. Kobe broke 30 3 times (once with 45 points), and was never held below 20.

Now I'm not going to call "pwn3d!!!" or anything, but David could defend Shaq, even when he was injured and past his prime. Kobe was the one we had trouble defending.

2001:

Game 1:
Shaq: 11-22 28 pts
Kobe: 19-35 45 pts

Game 2:
Shaq: 8-21 19 pts
Kobe: 11-24 28 pts

Game 3:
Shaq: 16-23 35 pts
Kobe: 14-27 36 pts

Game 4:
Shaq: 11-19 26 pts
Kobe: 10-19 24 pts

Overall:
Shaq vs Spurs: 46-85, 54.1%, 27.0 pts
2000-01 regular season averages: 57.2%, 28.7 pts

Kobe vs Spurs: 54-105, 51.4%, 33.25 pts.
2000-01 regular season averages: 46.4%, 28.5 pts


2002:

Game 1:
Shaq: 9-22 23 pts
Kobe: 8-18 20 pts

Game 2:
Shaq: 7-16 19 pts
Kobe: 12-25 26 pts

Game 3:
Shaq: 10-20 22 pts
Kobe: 15-31 31 pts

Game 4:
Shaq: 9-18 22 pts
Kobe: 10-27 28 pts

Game 5:
Shaq: 7-18 21 pts
Kobe: 10-20 26 pts

Overall:
Shaq vs Spurs: 42-94 44.7% 21.4 pts
2001-02 regular season averages: 57.9%, 27.2 pts

Kobe vs Spurs: 55-121 45.4% 26.2 pts
2001-02 regular season averages: 46.9%, 25.2 pts

You don't own shit.

Those stats, so fucking what? In the 2 series Shaq still averaged like 24 points, 13 rebounds, a couple blocks and assists per game. Those numbers are still as good as if not better than Duncan's and Robinson's career numbers. You just owned yourself, you proved that Robinson and Duncan together could hold Shaq to numbers that were comparable to their own. Way to go guys. Christ, I certainly hope a couple of hall of fame centers could put at least a little dent in the guy's game.

[DirkAB]

Could I do a better job? Right now if I just went and tried the job on a whim? No. If I had spent my whole life in training to become an NBA ref? Probably. I'm not the only one saying they're horrible. It's people all across the NBA, from fans, to coaches & players, to writers and commentators. Everybody sees that there is something wrong. I'm sure some calls are easy to get wrong, and I'm not expecting them to be perfect. But I would like to see them be right 75-80% of the time as opposed to the 50-55% that they're at right now. Lots of jobs are hard. Being an NBA coach is hard, but if a guy isn't doing a good job at it you know what happens? They get scrutinized by the teams fans and the media, and then they get fired. Thats how the world works. If you're not doing a good job, you get fired. Why are refs all of a sudden above this?


Right 50% of the time? You're crazy. This isn't the thread for that conversation, start one to discuss it if you have something to say about it. I'm sick of all the excuses being littered in every thread.

[strangeweather]

You don't own shit.
That's not what I was saying -- reread the post.


Those stats, so fucking what? In the 2 series Shaq still averaged like 24 points, 13 rebounds, a couple blocks and assists per game. Those numbers are still as good as if not better than Duncan's and Robinson's career numbers. You just owned yourself, you proved that Robinson and Duncan together could hold Shaq to numbers that were comparable to their own. Way to go guys. Christ, I certainly hope a couple of hall of fame centers could put at least a little dent in the guy's game.
If you had actually read my post, I never said it was proof that Tim>Shaq or Robinson>Shaq. Hegamboa posted that Kobe was the one we couldn't stop and you made a smartass reply about how Shaq was actually the one who owned everyone during those 3 years. If Shaq >>> Kobe in those two series, you're going to have to explain how.

As far as Shaq >>> Tim, even during these series which supposedly represent the pinnacle of Shaqosity, Tim dropped 40 once, 30 twice more, and was only held below 25 twice in 9 games.

[Fabbs]

Arvydas Sabonis in his prime?

[Fabbs]

That's not what I was saying -- reread the post.
As far as Shaq >>> Tim, even during these series which supposedly represent the pinnacle of Shaqosity, Tim dropped 40 once, 30 twice more, and was only held below 25 twice in 9 games.

Right on. :smokin He didn't get those 40 and 30s with some bulldoze crap move either.

[Bob Lanier]

Sabonis was better than Robinson or Ewing. I'm not sure how I'd rank him next to Duncan and O'Neal, but in any case he was no Dream.

[2centsworth]

The Dream
Shaq
Tim
DRob
Ewing

I don't rank Drob higher because down the stretch of games his offensive game wasn't refined enough to get crucial baskets and assist. However, Drob in his prime on the Suns would equal dynasty.

[DirkAB]

That's not what I was saying -- reread the post.


If you had actually read my post, I never said it was proof that Tim>Shaq or Robinson>Shaq. Hegamboa posted that Kobe was the one we couldn't stop and you made a smartass reply about how Shaq was actually the one who owned everyone during those 3 years. If Shaq >>> Kobe in those two series, you're going to have to explain how.

As far as Shaq >>> Tim, even during these series which supposedly represent the pinnacle of Shaqosity, Tim dropped 40 once, 30 twice more, and was only held below 25 twice in 9 games.

So you and Hegamboa are taking 2 series out of Shaq's 3 year championship run to define his game? Basically that is what you are doing. That would be like me looking for a couple of series that Shaq absolutely dominated and pinning it all on that, but I won't because you need to look at the full 3-4 years. Hegamboa implied that Kobe was the best player on the Lakers, and that Shaq wasn't even the 2nd best against the Spurs! Derek Fisher was, do you agree? Hegamboa also said that Shaq was rendered a role player because of David Robinson in them series, do you agree? 24pts, 13rb, 2blk, and 2ast certainly would be the greatest role player ever if that were the case. Did I really need to address such asinine points? Sorry if I skipped over those.

BTW, did I ever say that Shaq played better than Kobe in those 2 series? No, all I said was it was Shaq's team and Shaq was the best player on the Lakers during those 3-4 years. Did that mean that he was better every game or every series? No, of course not, but he was definitely more responsible for that teams success than Kobe Bryant. If you feel that Kobe Bryant was the leader and best player on that team and was primarily responsible for their succuss, then you go ahead and knock yourself out trying to convince me. Because at this point I'm not going to waste my breathe trying to do otherwise, because common sense should do that for you.

[DirkAB]

Sabonis was better than Robinson or Ewing. I'm not sure how I'd rank him next to Duncan and O'Neal, but in any case he was no Dream.

I always heard he was the man, I wish I had access to some old video that showcases his skills. He was the best passing big guy I ever seen play, right in front of Vlade.

[strangeweather]

BAkriD,

Shaq was awesome, and I'm not disputing that. Obviously Shaq was the leader and best player on those teams, and he was never a role player, even in his "fat Elvis" phase.

You were the one that posted that Shaq was "unstoppable." I agree that he wasn't stopped, but the Spurs certainly could, as you put it, put a dent in his game even when he was at his peak.

If you're not disputing that Kobe was better against the Spurs, then I don't have a broader point to make.

[DirkAB]

BAkriD,

Shaq was awesome, and I'm not disputing that. Obviously Shaq was the leader and best player on those teams, and he was never a role player, even in his "fat Elvis" phase.

You were the one that posted that Shaq was "unstoppable." I agree that he wasn't stopped, but the Spurs certainly could, as you put it, put a dent in his game even when he was at his peak.

If you're not disputing that Kobe was better against the Spurs, then I don't have a broader point to make.

I think this is what you are looking for, yes the Spurs were able slow Shaq down somewhat in those 2 series, a lot more so in '02. Is that it? I hope it is. OK now the but. But, 24,13,2,2 is not even close to being stopped, so I would say he was still essentially unstoppable. It only made sense that the Lakers went to Kobe more in those series, when Shaq is going against 2 hall of fame bigs, why wouldn't you? It wasn't as if they were even close series, so I guess I don't really see the point of this arguing this aspect of their careers, especially when there is so much more data that can be looked at.

[strangeweather]

I think this is what you are looking for, yes the Spurs were able slow Shaq down somewhat in those 2 series, a lot more so in '02. Is that it? I hope it is. OK now the but. But, 24,13,2,2 is not even close to being stopped, so I would say he was still essentially unstoppable. It only made sense that the Lakers went to Kobe more in those series, when Shaq is going against 2 hall of fame bigs, why wouldn't you? It wasn't as if they were even close series, so I guess I don't really see the point of this arguing this aspect of their careers, especially when there is so much more data that can be looked at.
The usual Spurs fan version of the history of that period is a bit different than everyone else's. The world at large (basically correctly) sees the Shaq of that period as uncontrollable and Kobe as his sidekick. Spurs fans mostly remember Shaq as the guy we could keep under control, and Kobe as the one who could completely go off. Finally in '03, the Spurs still had Shaq under controls, they had Bowen on Kobe and had a better supporting cast than the Lakers, which was good enough to beat them even though David was in his last year. So for Spurs fans, this is an argument in its own right, independent of the question of how good Shaq was vs. everyone else.

That's also why Spurs fans (mostly incorrectly) have a propensity to underrate Shaq's place in history -- we were never afraid of him.

On the original list, Hakeem is the only guy I've personally got as clearly better than Shaq.

[DirkAB]

^^^^^^^^Interesting and good to know.

[fyatuk]

Half those awards are arbitrary, and I could give shit about them. Tell me, if they started the NBA over every season and they redrafted players every year, from '99-'03 what player would every single team pick first? Shaquille O'Neal guaranteed. Would you disagree with that? That is a more accurate indication of who the MVP is, when the day is over who do you want on your team. Who can't be stopped.


The big ones to me are the fact that Robinson one defensive play of the year, and was all-defensive a whole mess of times. Robinson playing defense made a much bigger difference over Shaq than Shaq's points advantage.

How about we discuss actual impact. Robinson as a rookie was the cornerstone of the largest positive turnaround in NBA history (he had help from Sean Elliot). When Robinson went down, with basically the same team as the previous years, the Spurs had the largest negative turnaround in league history.

Shaq's impact was no-where even close on any of his comings and goings.

From 92-96, the only person you can really put about Robinson was Jordan and Dream. And the only reason Dream wins out is the head-to-head dismemberment of Robinson.

So what's your point with the 4 years?

Let's do this. Shaq, 99-03:

286 games. 8,132 points (28.43 per game), 939 PF (3.28), 808 TO (2.83), 739 Blocks (2.58), 162 Steals (0.57), 982 Assists (3.43), 1121 Off Reb (3.92), 2354 Def Reb (8.23), 11044 Min (38.62), 1780/3238 FTs (54.97%), 3176/5527 FG (57.46%)

Robinson, 92-96:

325 games. 8,588 points (26.42 per game), 959 PF (2.95), 917 TO (2.82), 1062 Blocks (3.27), 311 Steals (1.57), 1165 Assists (3.58), 1023 Off Reb (3.15), 2665 Def Reb (8.20), 12545 Min (38.6), 2536/3361 FTs (75.45%), 3015/5871 FGs (51.35%).

Sorry, Robinson wins that in my opinion.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

1) Hakeem
2) Shaq
3) Duncan

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Hakeem used to fast during games that came during the holy month of Ramadan.

Man it's hard to fast as it is for a whole day, but try playing a whole game of Bball not being able to eat/drink anything. Much respect to him.

[fyatuk]

Hakeem used to fast during games that came during the holy month of Ramadan.

Man it's hard to fast as it is for a whole day, but try playing a whole game of Bball not being able to eat/drink anything. Much respect to him.

He was also always better in the early parts of Ramadan. He tailed off at the end of the month (who wouldn't), but you never wanted to face him in the first week or two of Ramadan.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

He was also always better in the early parts of Ramadan. He tailed off at the end of the month (who wouldn't), but you never wanted to face him in the first week or two of Ramadan.

I want to see some footage of him versus Shaq.

I'm guessing he was in Orlando back then, but I'm curious to see how Hakeem approached Shaq's hugeness. Duncan's success rate against him was less than pleasing. =/

[whottt]

I want to see some footage of him versus Shaq.

I'm guessing he was in Orlando back then, but I'm curious to see how Hakeem approached Shaq's hugeness. Duncan's success rate against him was less than pleasing. =/


Hakeem made him work on D...he didn't have the size to really stop Shaq so his defense was his offense...and a potent defense it was.

Interestingly enough, in that playoff run, Hakeem guarded Shaq one on one falmost exlusively for most of that series while against the Spurs the Rockets double teamed David Robinson in most of the games...the two games they didn't and where Drob and Hakeem were matched up one on one for most of the game...were both Rockets losses.


Since Drob averaged about 16 FT's per game in that series...it's a good thing for Hakeem they elected to do so...or else Drob would have been able to defend Hakeem with his offense.


Neither Hakeem nor Shaq ever had the speed to guard David Robinson...no bigman in the NBA did...which was Drob was extensively double teamed in nearly every playoff series of his career...more than any of the others were...With Drob the Spurs had the luxury of guarding Shaq one on one with him in the final year of his career, with a torn meniscus in his knee, and a back condition that left him with no feelings in his leg...

Don't even tell me that fat dumb fuck could come anywhere near guarding David Robinson when Drob could actually move...he couldn't and David buttfucked him repeatedly from day he entered the NBA until the day his back died. And Shaq fucking knows it too...

Healthy Drob is 2-1 VS Shaq in the post season...and he's 3-1 against fuckhead Los Angeles Lakers.

Shaq couldn't even guard broken down Drob when the Spurs elected to run the offense through him...


Anyway...to those that get it congrats...I've leave the rest of the dumbasses to continue on with their incredily stupid belief that Avery Johnson and Vinny Del Negro were a better guard rotation than Parker and Manu and any rotations featuring Kobe Bryant, Clyde Drexler, Sam Caseell, Dwayne Wade or early Penny...and that one man can win a title. I'll hope some day they actually watch basketball games of their own teams and notice the contributions of the other players and how bigmen are defended in the post season..hopefully they'll notice that the common element between Duncan, Shaq and Hakeem is a guy named Robert Horry who made the difference for each of them all at various points in their playoff careers with game winning series stealing and altering shots...Including game 1 of the 94-95 WCF, where he hit the game winner for Hakeem against the Spurs.


And if the playoffs are your misguided measure...Hakeem is unquestionably #1...because he fucking owned all of them in the playoffs and he owned Kareem for good measure....don't be sitting there using hte playoffs as your measure and sticking Shaq ahead of Hakeem....because Hakeem swept Shaq, in the finals...he didn't sweep any of the others.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

^ Will respond when I get back from the gym.

But one quick point, I guess they double teamed David more b/c 1) David's not as good of a passer as Shaq and 2) Shaq's teammates probably relied more on him getting doubled and them getting open looks? k, be back later.

[whottt]

^ Will respond when I get back from the gym.

But one quick point, I guess they double teamed David more b/c 1) David's not as good of a passer as Shaq and 2) Shaq's teammates probably relied more on him getting doubled and them getting open looks? k, be back later.

No...Shaq is a not a better passer than David, Hakeem is not a better passer than David, Duncan is not a better passer than David, Ewing is not a better passer than David. David once lead the Spurs in assists and averaged 4.8 per game. No one else on the list except for Garnett even comes close to that.

You go find the list of C's that have lead their team in assists and averaged 4.8 or more per game...it's a short list.

They didn't double team Shaq because Shaq's point guard was first team all NBA...his PF was a 3 time NBA champion All Star, All NBA Defense...who could do more than just rebound, unlike Davids, and because he was surrounded by 3 point shooters. David, OTOH, had a PG hit one playoff 3 pointer in his 20 year career and who was stretching his range anytime he wasn't taking a layup,....

You couldn't just foul Drob...because he was a good FT shooter, and speed kills. All these other guys could be guarded somewhat effectively by one man because they weren't faster than most of the point guards in the NBA, unlike David Robinson. You had to double team DRob...you couldn't foul him, and you couldn't stay in front of him with one man defensively. And Drob was just as capable of throwing to an open man as any one...it's the open man that was the difference...

Shaq = ALL NBA First team PG
Drob = PG who made 1 playoff 3 pointer in a 20 year career...and don't act like he had a shot from any closer either.

This shit is not brain surgery.


Drob lead the NBA in dunks 3 times and FTA a butt load of times...and he didn't do it by offensive fouling his way to the basket like Shaq...he did it by blowing motherfuckers off the court.

Did you guys just watch what happened when Duncan, 7 time all NBA D tried to guard Dirk?

David Robinson was hell of a lot faster than Dirk...watch what happens when Shaq gets isoed on Dirk in this series...and Hakeem wasn't that fast either. He was fast for a big man...but Drob was fucking fast period.

It's not hard to figure this stuff out.


Repeat the fuck after me:
Tony Parker>AJ
Manu>Vinny
Kobe
Penny
Dwayne
Drexler
Cassell>>>>

[dimsah]

I can't understand how Spurs fans don't know DRob's game.
He's the reason I became a fan of the Spurs. I'm not exactly close to San Antonio (born in the panhandle), but I couldn't find a better role model as a basketball player anywhere. I was 12 then. He embodied everything that most people claim to want in a professional athlete, magnificent both on and off the court, and I'm still a fan to this day because that legacy has carried over to current Spurs with Tim Duncan. I'm not going to get into this debate about who was better, but I urge Spurs fans who aren't as familiar with Drob as some of us to please find some archive footage, and watch, and watch, and watch,
and marvel at the things he could do.

[DirkAB]

Shaq's impact was no-where even close on any of his comings and goings.

From 92-96, the only person you can really put about Robinson was Jordan and Dream. And the only reason Dream wins out is the head-to-head dismemberment of Robinson.

So what's your point with the 4 years?

Let's do this. Shaq, 99-03:

286 games. 8,132 points (28.43 per game), 939 PF (3.28), 808 TO (2.83), 739 Blocks (2.58), 162 Steals (0.57), 982 Assists (3.43), 1121 Off Reb (3.92), 2354 Def Reb (8.23), 11044 Min (38.62), 1780/3238 FTs (54.97%), 3176/5527 FG (57.46%)

Robinson, 92-96:

325 games. 8,588 points (26.42 per game), 959 PF (2.95), 917 TO (2.82), 1062 Blocks (3.27), 311 Steals (1.57), 1165 Assists (3.58), 1023 Off Reb (3.15), 2665 Def Reb (8.20), 12545 Min (38.6), 2536/3361 FTs (75.45%), 3015/5871 FGs (51.35%).

Sorry, Robinson wins that in my opinion.

Shaq's comings and goings didn't have as big of an impact? In Orlando they went from the Finals in '95 (57 wins) and in the conference finals in '96 (60 wins), to not even making it out of the first round in '97 (45 wins). The Lakers went from getting to the finals 4 of 5 years, in which they won 3 rings, to not even making the playoffs, and you're saying he presence wasn't as impactful as Robinsons?

In those stats that you posted above, you left out the most important one:

Shaq won 3 rings

Robinson 0 rings, in fact he never even made it to the finals once.

If you all want to throw the rings out there to back Duncan's case, then you better be prepared for it to get thrown back in your face with Robinson, especially if we're talking prime.

[whottt]

Don't be deleting this shit...and don't be saying you're a Lakerfan either...you fool no one, bobby joe.


Hakeem was every bit the athlete Robinson was if not moreso. The guy was 3" shorter than DRob and still blocked more shots and got way more steals and just as many freaky offensive moves. This is why Robinson always struggled so badly against Hakeem, because Hakeem was just as quick as him and that was Robinson's mealticket to success.

You must be 12 or on crack if you think Hakeem was a fast as David was...

He was not as fast as David was...he was post up bigman.

You can say Hakeem was more skilled all you want...and you'd be accurate about that, but he wasn't as fast as Drob, and I'll give you a long argument on which was the better athlete...David Robinson's entire career was due to his athleticism...

This is why he was the first guy in NBA history to block over 300 shots per season his first 3 years in the NBA...

This is why he and Jordan are the only guys to lead the NBA in scoring and be a DPOY.

It took Hakeem years to develop his game to the level he finally did...he wasn't an outstanding shotblocker when he first came into the NBA...it took him years to do it...

He was tutored by Moses Malone on hus offensive game as well.

David Robinson sat on his butt for 2 years in the NBA came into the league and blocked over 300 fucking shots.

All David had to do was step foot on the court...Hakeem had to work at it. And Hakeem's game was very much due to yearly improvement, great footwork and fundamental play.

Statistically they were freaks...but the similarities end there.






Please spare the 30-12 regular season mark, because SA went 13-1 against Houston after acquiring Duncan and when Hakeem started to decline.

Additionally the 2 games you mention Hakeem still outscored and outrebounded and outshot David, but the Spurs one so it's not like Robinson ever outplayed Hakeem even one game that series in 95. In one of those Spurs wins, Hakeem had 45 points!

How are playoffs misguided? Can you win a championship in the regular season? Nothing is on the line until the postseason. This is what separates Shaq, TD, and Hakeem from DRob.


This is bull shit...first game I actually saw them play together Drob held fucking Hakeem 6 points...he was like a rookie or a second year player.

Their matchups were totally dictated by whether or not Hakeem got in foul trouble...if Hakeem stayed out of foul trouble, he'd have a good game and it was good for the Rockets...if he didn't...then Rockets were in trouble.

The Rockets knew this nature of their matchup...and that's why they were prepared for it in those playoffs.


And don't give me this shit about the regular season not mattering...

Smack dab middle of Hakeem's career a healthy Hakeem didn't even make the fucking playoffs and his ass got swept a ton of times too..

His ass wasn't even on the court the first time the Rockets went to the finals...Ralph Sampson hit the shot to put them there.


Oh yeah...Hakeem played with Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen...and he got his bounced from the playoffs...and don't give me shit that he was old either...Drob was old when he started winning titles.


Live by the playoffs, die by the playoffs.

[Phenomanul]

I guess whottt finally decided to educate the young ones... yeah, I know it's depressing when people don't get their facts straight or pretend to use only one set of criteria such as playoff dominance for their analysis of evaluating the better of A vs. B player... when basketball is clearly a team sport...

The better talent between DRob and Shaq is as clear as spring water... to me anyway... Shaq has no game 6 feet away from the bucket... And DRob at least had jumper. His go-to move was beating guys off the dribble whereas Shaqs go-to move has always been to pummel his defender to the ground...

[RC's Boss]

Hakeem (would shit on any post player in his prime) a mesh of DRob's ath;eticism w/ Kareem's moves.... Tim/Shaq (tie, unless Shaq gets another finals MVP). No disrespect to DRob and the others, but they are not in the above mentioned league. Garnett???? Not a true post player, more like a versatile foward like Nowitski.

[DirkAB]

I guess whottt finally decided to educate the young ones... yeah, I know it's depressing when people don't get their facts straight or pretend to use only one set of criteria such as playoff dominance for their analysis of evaluating the better of A vs. B player... when basketball is clearly a team sport...

The better talent between DRob and Shaq is as clear as spring water... to me anyway... Shaq has no game 6 feet away from the bucket... And DRob at least had jumper. His go-to move was beating guys off the dribble whereas Shaqs go-to move has always been to pummel his defender to the ground...

Honestly, I haven't seen him explicitly say that he thinks that Robinson is better. All I've seen him do is point our aspects of Robinsons game that were better and the players around him, I've seen no list of rankings.

BTW, have you been hovering around and waiting for somebody to come in and make an arguement for you? Sad.

[RC's Boss]

I'm a DRob fan, but like Bill Russell once said, "what makes you great, regardless of size, is how well you use the body you were born with." Shaq may not be able to play outside the paint, but DRob's athleticism was never as good as Shaq's strength on the inside. Now Tim on the other hand, while not as fast, can run up and down the floor if need be (swimmers have good conditioning) and unlike DRob he has moves in the post to rival any post player in history.

[whottt]

I'm a DRob fan, but like Bill Russell once said, "what makes you great, regardless of size, is how well you use the body you were born with." Shaq may not be able to play outside the paint, but DRob's athleticism was never as good as Shaq's strength on the inside. Now Tim on the other hand, while not as fast, can run up and down the floor if need be (swimmers have good conditioning) and unlike DRob he has moves in the post to rival any post player in history.



Bill Russell needs to shut the fuck up and realize he played with 3-5 other HOF'ers every fucking year of his career, played in an area where teams could control the talent in regions of the nation, and where most of the teams served as minor league clubs for the big teams...it also didn't hurt that there were only like 3 teams in the NBA back then...

Bill Russell isn't fit to hold Wilt Chamberains jock...I don't care if he's got rings in his nose.

[Phenomanul]

Honestly, I haven't seen him explicitly say that he thinks that Robinson is better. All I've seen him do is point our aspects of Robinsons game that were better and the players around him, I've seen no list of rankings.

BTW, have you been hovering around and waiting for somebody to come in and make an arguement for you? Sad.


I've been on other threads... while you were being made a fool no less...

And this after I recommended you not call others fools...

[RC's Boss]

Are you serious?!?!?!?! Regardless of how many teams there were, you can't deny this dude's greatness! He heaps praises on Tim all the time, R U going to say he needs to shut the F@!& up then?!?!?!?! And if you would just watch NBA TV sometimes you would know that Russell LET Chamberlin score as long as no one else on Wilt's team scored. Watch some of those old black and white games and you will see Bill shut him down near the end of games if needed. THAT IS A FACT! He, like Tim, was an unselfish team player who only wanted to win. If he were in his prime, I would take him to roll w/ Timmy on the block ANYDAY over DRob or Shaq, quote me, save it on your hard drive, copy to your reply, or whatever you want

[resistanze]

Been out the whole day...good thread we got going on here :lol

[miss paxton]

Shaq won 3 rings.

Robinson 0 rings, in fact he never even made it to the finals once.

Okay, BAkriD, I'm trying to give you the benefit of the doubt here but I don't understand what you're saying. I assume you know David Robinson does have two rings, both of which came after going through Shaq's team. Shaq also won two rings going through David's teams.

The stats fyatuk quoted were to compare the two men in their primes. I guess you're saying that when they were in their primes, Shaq had three rings and David Robinson had none. I notice you jumped from 1995 to 1997 and then to the Lakers getting to the finals four out of five years (which was of course 2000-2002 and 2004). Why are you omitting the other years? Shaq came to LA in 1996. In their first playoffs with Shaq (1996-1997), they lost in the WCSF 1-4 to Utah. The next year (1997-1998), the Lakers made it to the WCF, where they were swept by Utah. Then, in 1999, the Spurs swept the Lakers in the WCSF. Your post implied that, not only did Orlando self-destruct when Shaq left, the Lakers immediately shot to the top of the league. That just didn't happen. People rightly remember how dominant the Lakers were in 2001, but that first championship run in 2000 was pretty shaky (a run in which Shaq did not face David, by the way)--it took them the full five to get rid of Sacramento, they had an easier time in the next round going 4-1 against Phoenix, then won a tough 7 game series against Portland and won in 6 in the Finals against Indiana.

So what were the Spurs doing in those missing years from 1996-1999, you ask? Or maybe you didn't, but anyway: 1996-1997 Robinson was out virtually the entire year due to injury, and the Spurs landed Duncan. 1997-1998, as I recall the Spurs lost to the Jazz in the first round. 1999, the Spurs won the title.

I've pretty much resigned myself to the fact that history will view Shaq as a more dominant player, and even a better one, than David. But I think the reasons Spurs fans don't see it that way is not due to blind homerism, but because, as strangeweather put it so well:


The usual Spurs fan version of the history of that period is a bit different than everyone else's. The world at large (basically correctly) sees the Shaq of that period as uncontrollable and Kobe as his sidekick. Spurs fans mostly remember Shaq as the guy we could keep under control, and Kobe as the one who could completely go off. Finally in '03, the Spurs still had Shaq under controls, they had Bowen on Kobe and had a better supporting cast than the Lakers, which was good enough to beat them even though David was in his last year. So for Spurs fans, this is an argument in its own right, independent of the question of how good Shaq was vs. everyone else.

[whottt]

Are you serious?!?!?!?! Regardless of how many teams there were, you can't deny this dude's greatness! He heaps praises on Tim all the time, R U going to say he needs to shut the F@!& up then?!?!?!?!
Depends on if he's talking out of his ass...I mean rings.

I've also seen that tool say he could've have shut down Shaq if he wanted too...

Get out on the court and prove it bitch, in an era when Mugsy Bogues wouldn't have played C, otherwise STFU.



And if you would just watch NBA TV sometimes you would know that Russell LET Chamberlin score as long as no one else on Wilt's team scored.


So was Russelll guarding everyone else on Wilt's team? Or were his teamates?

I want you to explain to me how Bill Russell was responsible for the major part of the plan working...IE no one else on Wilt's team scoring...can he guard 5 guys at once?

Take a look at the point you just made...

You just basically said Bill Russll didn't do shit to defend his man while his teamates shut everyone else down...




Watch some of those old black and white games and you will see Bill shut him down near the end of games if needed. THAT IS A FACT! He, like Tim, was an unselfish team player who only wanted to win. If he were in his prime, I would take him to roll w/ Timmy on the block ANYDAY over DRob or Shaq, quote me, save it on your hard drive, copy to your reply, or whatever you want


Robert Horry can talk through an assload of rings and is unselfish too...

Robert Horry so was unselfish he never sought offensive or defensive credit...he'd just let his man score make sure no one on the other team scored..


and he was generous enough to let his bigmen win the post season MVP's and lead the team in scoring and rebounding, while he just made sure the won it at the end.

Since Robert Horry played in an era in which there was more than one team in the NBA and the height of the average starting C was greater than 4'11...Robert Horry>Bill Russell.

I rate Bill Russell just behind John Salley on the ringers list....John Salley let his man score as long as none of their teamates scored...he was also unselfish enough to let all his teamates get the PT, rebounds and points.

Let's ask John Sallley to chime in on this subject.


Oh and Bill Russell is Wilt Chamberlains biggest fan, and is the first guy to say he had the better team. To be a great player you have to understand it's teams that win championships, not individuals, which is why I always find it ironic when Ring arguers try to use him to back up their one man team arguments.

[DirkAB]

The stats fyatuk quoted were to compare the two men in their primes. I guess you're saying that when they were in their primes, Shaq had three rings and David Robinson had none.

That is the exact point I was making, and I'm glad you caught it.


Okay, BAkriDYour post implied that, not only did Orlando self-destruct when Shaq left, the Lakers immediately shot to the top of the league.


Honestly, I really didn't mean to imply that. The point that I was trying to make was what happened to the teams that Shaq had left. Both Orlando and LA went from being on the top tier of the league, to a first round exit and a non-playoff team.

[whottt]

Honestly, I haven't seen him explicitly say that he thinks that Robinson is better. All I've seen him do is point our aspects of Robinsons game that were better and the players around him, I've seen no list of rankings.

BTW, have you been hovering around and waiting for somebody to come in and make an arguement for you? Sad.



I'll say it exlicitly...I think Drob was better. In fact I know it. I watched them play. Drob used to frustrate the hell out of Shaq, more than any other player.

You ever watch a slow player try to guard a quick player? You ever have the misfortune of experiencing that your self?

There is nothing that makes you feel like a bigger loser than trying to guard some motherfucker that makes you feel like you are stuck in molases.

Watch how much of a dick Horry turns into when this happens to him...

Shaq used to get really annoyed about it...lot of guys did, which is why they never let Drob in the club...Christian Boy Mr. Nice guy Smartypants Goody two shoes that could dunk on them like they were a CBA reject...and there wasn't a motherfuckikgn thing they could do about it. I'd have hated him too most likely.

[RC's Boss]

Bill Russell gaurded the paint. When he wasn't blocking shots, he was altering them. Is John Salley in the HOF? And I assume you are an adult so why are you so vulgar. I see posts talking about Mavs fans w/ no class all the time, you seem like that type. Calm down little person. Do you not have a vocabulary large enough to express your thoughts in a CLASSY manner, or are you one of those fans that turns beyotch anytime someone has an opinion that differs from yours! Most elders say if block were a recorded stat, Russell would easily be the all-time leading shot blocker. Hell I heard Walt Frazier say he remembers when he used to watch the Celtics Russell HAD to have averaged 10bpg! It may have been an exagerration, but damn!

[DirkAB]

I'll say it exlicitly...I think Drob was better. In fact I know it. I watched them play. Drob used to frustrate the hell out of Shaq, more than any other player.

You ever watch a slow player try to guard a quick player? You ever have the misfortune of experiencing that your self?

There is nothing that makes you feel like a bigger loser than trying to guard some motherfucker that makes you feel like you are stuck in molases.

Wrong answer, try again.

[fyatuk]

Shaq's comings and goings didn't have as big of an impact? In Orlando they went from the Finals in '95 (57 wins) and in the conference finals in '96 (60 wins), to not even making it out of the first round in '97 (45 wins). The Lakers went from getting to the finals 4 of 5 years, in which they won 3 rings, to not even making the playoffs, and you're saying he presence wasn't as impactful as Robinsons?

In those stats that you posted above, you left out the most important one:

Shaq won 3 rings

Robinson 0 rings, in fact he never even made it to the finals once.

If you all want to throw the rings out there to back Duncan's case, then you better be prepared for it to get thrown back in your face with Robinson, especially if we're talking prime.

And you prove my point. The Magic lost about 15 more games without Shaq. The spurs lost 39 more games without Robinson in the year he was injured.

When Shaq joined the Lakers, he made a grand difference of 2 games. When he left (and the team was blown up and completely re-designed with coach issues, etc), they lost 22 more.

The rings argument is pointless in this case. Robinson had an all-star teamate twice (93 and 96). Shaq has never played a year without at least one fellow all-star (that I can think of). And really has always had another player considered to be one of the best in the league (Penny, Kobe, Wade). You can't even begin to argue that Shaq didn't have vastly superior teammates until after Robinson's injury.

Also if you look at the year by year stats, you see that in their 4 "prime" years, Robinson stayed much healthier (he missed 3 games in 4 years as opposed to shaq missing an average of 6-10 a year), and was more consistent with his numbers.

You put Robinson on that Lakers team instead of Shaq, they would have been even better then they were with Shaq. Simple as that.

I like it when we Spurs fans are made fun of for pointing to rings to prove we're a better team, but other people feel qualified to point to rings to prove a player is better than another... :rolleyes

[RC's Boss]

The '06 Spurs are not big losers but ALL the Mavs were quicker w/ the exception of Tony and Manu! They sure as hell didn't feel like losers against Amare and PHX in the '05 WCF

[flipcritic]

This is another post that is impossible to answer on who is best. But I'd just like to point out to all of the Kevin McHale bashers out there, that though McHale was in the shadow of Larry Bird throughout his career, he had some the best low post moves of any big man I have ever seen.

Some could argue that Kareem was the best at the low post. In his early career he had an array of moves, but practically never needed them later on because of his "sky hook". I saw some videos of him (as Lew Alcindor) against Wilt (in his later years) and he absolutely dominated Chamberlain. Even Wilt has said that Kareem was the only one he felt, "I really needed some help to guard."

Some would say O'Neal is the best because of his power (the strongest of them all), but before he turned 30 could also be deceptively quick. His sudden spin moves on the low block in his Orlando and early Laker years was incredible for his size. For all his power and speed, he also had a soft touch (not noticed that much since he pounds it in when he can) around the basket and great foot coordination (brining down the ball on fast breaks at times) as compared to Kareem, Ewing, and Olajuwon, who couldn't bring the ball down the court if their life depended on it. But now in his later years he relies more on his strength.

Duncan doesn't have the vast array of moves as Hakeem or McHale, but he makes up for it in terms of no wasted movement, and his ability to read defenses and break them down by passing out of them at correct times. He reminds me a lot of Larry Bird in that sense, being able read the floor and judge assignments correctly to take advantage of offensive situations. He also is underrated as one of the stronger big men in the league.

Of all the big men mentioned, Robinson is the best player facing the basket, getting by defenders easily. He's basically SF in a C's body. And nobody (not even Hakeem) was as fast as he was running at full speed on fastbreaks. He also had supreme defensive instincts. Hakeem was the better shotblocker, but Robinson was the better all around defender, as in his prime, he was the NBA's supreme athlete. As he got older, the speed began to ebb, and so did his effectiveness.

The catalyst for Hakeem's moves was his "dream shake" (which Sports Illustrated deemed the greatest signature basketball move of all time). It wasn't as effective as the "sky hook", but it was totally unpredictable, as each mini-shift could result in a step-through, a fade-away, or hook shot. Whatever he chose to do after it, it pretty much always resulted in a defender locked in place, or jumping out of his shoes.

McHale didn't have a "dream shake" to rely on. I've seen him play in his prime, and I have never seen a player with the same amount of moves and countermoves (only Hakeem comes close). In terms of basic fundamentals of post play, Duncan and Kareem are the only ones I've seen who execute in the same way McHale did, but only McHale could roll out those moves in succession (he's got the best up and under of the bunch).

[miss paxton]

Ok, I got it, BAkriD . Thanks for the clarification. I don't think you were the one who decided for purposes of this argument which years would count in order to determine which were their "prime" years, and I'm not really criticizing the use of those stats. I'd agree that it's easy to say those were Shaq's prime years because of the rings. But, as whottt and others have pointed out so well, Shaq, of course, had the luxury of better players around him during his prime.

[RC's Boss]

Damn good post flip critic!

[RC's Boss]

Most of my fellow Spurs fans will hate me for this, but all I can remember when comparing DRob to Hakeem is the announcer saying, "David Robinson has to be wondering, what must I do!" He looked like a jack in the box trying to guard Hakeem in the post that series (sorry forgot the year someone else remind me).... No he wasn't as fast, but (my opinion of course) I feel he was the better POST player (back to the basket, face up, whatever).

[DirkAB]

You put Robinson on that Lakers team instead of Shaq, they would have been even better then they were with Shaq. Simple as that.


How do you expect anybody to take you serious with stupidass statements like that? How about the flipside of that arguement, what would Shaq do with Duncan? Really kind of pointless to talk about the what ifs and could ofs.

[whottt]

Most of my fellow Spurs fans will hate me for this, but all I can remember when comparing DRob to Hakeem is the announcer saying, "David Robinson has to be wondering, what must I do!" He looked like a jack in the box trying to guard Hakeem in the post that series (sorry forgot the year someone else remind me).... No he wasn't as fast, but (my opinion of course) I feel he was the better POST player (back to the basket, face up, whatever).



Hakeem did do that to David...he also did it every other guy that had the misfortune of attempting to guard him in that period...Hakeem was a flat out stud in the post.


But the question you need to be asking yourself...is how good it must have felt to Hakeem for Hakeem's defensive responsibility to have been Dennis Rodman. You can't be on the court dropping 35 on someone when you got 6 fouls...Drob averaged about 16 FTA per game in that series...do the math.

[fyatuk]

How do you expect anybody to take you serious with stupidass statements like that? How about the flipside of that arguement, what would Shaq do with Duncan? Really kind of pointless to talk about the what ifs and could ofs.

Considering you haven't come up with a coherent argument as to why Shaq is better than Robinson, I'm not surprised you'd say that.

Also, the Spurs would obviously have been worse with Shaq and Duncan as opposed to Robinson and Duncan. Shaq would have to be the low post man which would have seriously reduced Duncan's effectiveness. The Spurs also would have had a much worse defense. With Robinson and Duncan you had 2 players who could flip between high and low posts, with one awesome straight up defender in Robinson, and one of the better help defenders in Duncan. No comparison there.

The point is Robinson was the better player. IMO it's not even a stretch to say the Lakers would have been better with him than Shaq.

[fyatuk]

Most of my fellow Spurs fans will hate me for this, but all I can remember when comparing DRob to Hakeem is the announcer saying, "David Robinson has to be wondering, what must I do!" He looked like a jack in the box trying to guard Hakeem in the post that series (sorry forgot the year someone else remind me).... No he wasn't as fast, but (my opinion of course) I feel he was the better POST player (back to the basket, face up, whatever).

I think just about everyone has said Hakeen was #1 (except a few Shaq lovers). I don't think I've seen anyone rank Robinson over Hakeem. So why would we hate you for saying something we've basically already agreed to.

[whottt]

It's hard not to put Hakeem right behind Wilt and Kareem...Hakeem beat every C of his era pretty convincingly in one on one matchups in the post season, his career numbers are phonomenal and his regular season highs and versatility are unmatched by anyone other than Drob, Wilt and Kareem...I'll say it right now, Drob couldn't stop Hakeem in that series...the problem I have always had with the Hakeem backers is they don't realize that Hakeem would have had similar problems stopping Drob had he been forced to guard him...he wasn't. He didn't, he guarded Rodman and he had better teamates.

Go ahead and put Hakeem ahead of Drob and Shaq...you can't argue against him, but there is no way he's in a totally different class of C than David Robinson...they were really closely matched despite Hakeem's game being one of technique and skill and Drob's being speed and athleticism. And they were always fun matchups to watch between, IMO, the two most versatile bigmen to ever step foot on the court.

[RC's Boss]

It's a forum, it was my way of apologizing in advance to my fellow spurs fans. Remember, this is all fun, we don't make any personell descisions w/ any of these teams. Be serious when you work, this is play!

[Brutalis]

2. Shaquille O'Neal
3. David Robinson
6. Patrick Ewing
1. Tim Duncan
4. Hakeem Olajawon
5. Kevin Garnett

[RC's Boss]

I agree on the versatility. Tim like Kareem is the standard of finesse and he's clutch as evident in '04 B4 the .4 B.S. The thing that made Shaq great was not only his power, but also the quickness in which he "was" able to move w/ that power. I do believe his jock is being ridden a little too much now though at this stage in his career w/ these announcers. He's still strong but waaaaaaay too slow.

[RC's Boss]

Can't put Garnett over Ewing, hell I can't put him in the top 10!

[bobbyjoe]

This is another post that is impossible to answer on who is best. But I'd just like to point out to all of the Kevin McHale bashers out there, that though McHale was in the shadow of Larry Bird throughout his career, he had some the best low post moves of any big man I have ever seen.

Some could argue that Kareem was the best at the low post. In his early career he had an array of moves, but practically never needed them later on because of his "sky hook". I saw some videos of him (as Lew Alcindor) against Wilt (in his later years) and he absolutely dominated Chamberlain. Even Wilt has said that Kareem was the only one he felt, "I really needed some help to guard."

Some would say O'Neal is the best because of his power (the strongest of them all), but before he turned 30 could also be deceptively quick. His sudden spin moves on the low block in his Orlando and early Laker years was incredible for his size. For all his power and speed, he also had a soft touch (not noticed that much since he pounds it in when he can) around the basket and great foot coordination (brining down the ball on fast breaks at times) as compared to Kareem, Ewing, and Olajuwon, who couldn't bring the ball down the court if their life depended on it. But now in his later years he relies more on his strength.

Duncan doesn't have the vast array of moves as Hakeem or McHale, but he makes up for it in terms of no wasted movement, and his ability to read defenses and break them down by passing out of them at correct times. He reminds me a lot of Larry Bird in that sense, being able read the floor and judge assignments correctly to take advantage of offensive situations. He also is underrated as one of the stronger big men in the league.

Of all the big men mentioned, Robinson is the best player facing the basket, getting by defenders easily. He's basically SF in a C's body. And nobody (not even Hakeem) was as fast as he was running at full speed on fastbreaks. He also had supreme defensive instincts. Hakeem was the better shotblocker, but Robinson was the better all around defender, as in his prime, he was the NBA's supreme athlete. As he got older, the speed began to ebb, and so did his effectiveness.

The catalyst for Hakeem's moves was his "dream shake" (which Sports Illustrated deemed the greatest signature basketball move of all time). It wasn't as effective as the "sky hook", but it was totally unpredictable, as each mini-shift could result in a step-through, a fade-away, or hook shot. Whatever he chose to do after it, it pretty much always resulted in a defender locked in place, or jumping out of his shoes.

McHale didn't have a "dream shake" to rely on. I've seen him play in his prime, and I have never seen a player with the same amount of moves and countermoves (only Hakeem comes close). In terms of basic fundamentals of post play, Duncan and Kareem are the only ones I've seen who execute in the same way McHale did, but only McHale could roll out those moves in succession (he's got the best up and under of the bunch).

I really like the points you make, but I would say DUncan is much more adept at the power game than McHale, yet had less of a repertoire in terms of quantity of moves. I agree Duncan's strength and passing are both underrated. Duncan's passes are with more purpose than arguably all of the people on this list.

Regarding Hakeem, I don't think he relied on the turnaround as much as many seem to remember him. That was maybe only 20-30% of his game. He was as sick as DRob running the break, had a jump hook which was money, and really good midrange touch. I would also highly question DRob being a better overall defender, given:

1) Hakeem won 2 DPOY awards to DRob's 1
2) Hakeem had a ton more steals than DRob
3) Hakeem blocking more shots than DRob
4) Hakeem not getting lit up by anyone the way DRob was lit up in 95.

I would say that out of all the guys, DRob probably defended O'Neal the best out of anyone in the group, Hakeem included, but overall Hakeem was better defensively and offensively.

I highly question anyone's basketball knowledge who thinks Hakeem wasn't fast. Remember that block on Rod Strickland in the playoffs when he chased him down despite spotting him 25 feet? The guy was just as fast as David Robinson. His quickness was probably his greatest asset. This idea that he was some McHale who relied purely on skill is ludicrous.

You don't become the only Center in NBA history to rank in the top 10 in both blocks and steals alltime without being extremely fast and quick. That's just pure common sense.

[DirkAB]

LOL! I am the ultimate Drob homer but I promise I didn't have any preconceived ideas for that simplistic little ranking...and I didn't expect Drob to lead it by that much under any circumstances...


Well, as long as you admit it.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

No...Shaq is a not a better passer than David, Hakeem is not a better passer than David, Duncan is not a better passer than David, Ewing is not a better passer than David. David once lead the Spurs in assists and averaged 4.8 per game. No one else on the list except for Garnett even comes close to that.

You go find the list of C's that have lead their team in assists and averaged 4.8 or more per game...it's a short list.

They didn't double team Shaq because Shaq's point guard was first team all NBA...his PF was a 3 time NBA champion All Star, All NBA Defense...who could do more than just rebound, unlike Davids, and because he was surrounded by 3 point shooters. David, OTOH, had a PG hit one playoff 3 pointer in his 20 year career and who was stretching his range anytime he wasn't taking a layup,....

You couldn't just foul Drob...because he was a good FT shooter, and speed kills. All these other guys could be guarded somewhat effectively by one man because they weren't faster than most of the point guards in the NBA, unlike David Robinson. You had to double team DRob...you couldn't foul him, and you couldn't stay in front of him with one man defensively. And Drob was just as capable of throwing to an open man as any one...it's the open man that was the difference...

Shaq = ALL NBA First team PG
Drob = PG who made 1 playoff 3 pointer in a 20 year career...and don't act like he had a shot from any closer either.

This shit is not brain surgery.


Drob lead the NBA in dunks 3 times and FTA a butt load of times...and he didn't do it by offensive fouling his way to the basket like Shaq...he did it by blowing motherfuckers off the court.

Did you guys just watch what happened when Duncan, 7 time all NBA D tried to guard Dirk?

David Robinson was hell of a lot faster than Dirk...watch what happens when Shaq gets isoed on Dirk in this series...and Hakeem wasn't that fast either. He was fast for a big man...but Drob was fucking fast period.

It's not hard to figure this stuff out.


Repeat the fuck after me:
Tony Parker>AJ
Manu>Vinny
Kobe
Penny
Dwayne
Drexler
Cassell>>>>

Those higher assist stats are partly due to DRobs unselfish nature. In fact, wasn't that one of the knocks against him...he deferred too much?

I do agree DRob's supporting cast was very average.

As for the rest, I don't know what you're rambling about. Sorry.

[bobbyjoe]

Don't be deleting this shit...and don't be saying you're a Lakerfan either...you fool no one, bobby joe.



You must be 12 or on crack if you think Hakeem was a fast as David was...

He was not as fast as David was...he was post up bigman.

You can say Hakeem was more skilled all you want...and you'd be accurate about that, but he wasn't as fast as Drob, and I'll give you a long argument on which was the better athlete...David Robinson's entire career was due to his athleticism...

This is why he was the first guy in NBA history to block over 300 shots per season his first 3 years in the NBA...

This is why he and Jordan are the only guys to lead the NBA in scoring and be a DPOY.

It took Hakeem years to develop his game to the level he finally did...he wasn't an outstanding shotblocker when he first came into the NBA...it took him years to do it...

He was tutored by Moses Malone on hus offensive game as well.

David Robinson sat on his butt for 2 years in the NBA came into the league and blocked over 300 fucking shots.

All David had to do was step foot on the court...Hakeem had to work at it. And Hakeem's game was very much due to yearly improvement, great footwork and fundamental play.

Statistically they were freaks...but the similarities end there.








This is bull shit...first game I actually saw them play together Drob held fucking Hakeem 6 points...he was like a rookie or a second year player.

Their matchups were totally dictated by whether or not Hakeem got in foul trouble...if Hakeem stayed out of foul trouble, he'd have a good game and it was good for the Rockets...if he didn't...then Rockets were in trouble.

The Rockets knew this nature of their matchup...and that's why they were prepared for it in those playoffs.


And don't give me this shit about the regular season not mattering...

Smack dab middle of Hakeem's career a healthy Hakeem didn't even make the fucking playoffs and his ass got swept a ton of times too..

His ass wasn't even on the court the first time the Rockets went to the finals...Ralph Sampson hit the shot to put them there.


Oh yeah...Hakeem played with Charles Barkley, Scottie Pippen...and he got his bounced from the playoffs...and don't give me shit that he was old either...Drob was old when he started winning titles.


Live by the playoffs, die by the playoffs.

This idea that Robinson had no skill and Hakeem's game was all about skill is getting vastly overstated.

Robinson had a very deadly face-up mid range jumper up to about 16 feet. If you played off him too much, he'd stick it consistently.

Robinson was also an excellent passing big man. When Duncan came to town, his ability to feed the post and run the high-low really showed how great of a passer he was.

Robinson also had a better handle than Hakeem. Hakeem's rapid decline in his late 30's also shows that his game relied more on athleticism than many seem to acknowledge. Once those quicks were gone, it was a different story. You seem to be describing Hakeem as a Tim Duncan, a guy who's game was purely about skill and average athleticism. This is just not the case at all.

I do remember Hakeem really having trouble with David early in David's career and the 6 point game in fact. Robinson really affected him. At that stage of their careers, DRob usually fared quite well in the matchups. Then in 93 Hakeem started to reach another level and really just took Robinson apart in the rest of their "in prime" matchups, esp the 95 series. He attained a level DRob just didnt have in him. But it's not a slight to DRob because the same happened to Ewing and O'Neal. It was more Hakeem excelling than Robinson sucking.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

^ Old DRob and old Hakeem are comparable.

The difference is DRob had Timmy.

[strangeweather]

^ Old DRob and old Hakeem are comparable.

The difference is DRob had Timmy.
Actually, I think that's kind of Whott's point. If old DRob = old Hakeem with different outcomes due to playing with different guys around him, and Hakeem's supporting cast when they were younger >>> David's, how do you say Hakeem was really better then?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Actually, I think that's kind of Whott's point. If old DRob = old Hakeem with different outcomes due to playing with different guys around him, and Hakeem's supporting cast when they were younger >>> David's, how do you say Hakeem was really better then?

Other than Hakeem violating DRob in the playoffs?

[The Genius]

I suggest people take a look at this considering the topic of great bigs...


http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=113281

[flipcritic]

I suggest people take a look at this considering the topic of great bigs...


http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=113281

God I remember that bbs. I was a member of it during my pre-Duncan/Olajuwon days. But that bbs soon turned spoiled as soon as the Rockets won their championships, and expected that it was their right to win it every year since. The last 10 years has been humbling for its members. Most have them are just outright nasty so I left.

That is my worst fear for SPURSTALK, is that after the moment of championship glory, the fans get spoiled and think it's their right to be contenders every year, which is at most a blessing.

I understand of course that fans will be fans. But it's good to step back and see that a team winning a championship is no team's birthright (not even if you're a Celtic fan). Out of 30 teams, one team getting a championship is both miracle and the result of team dedication. I'd hate to see this forum turnning into CLUTCHFANS.

[flipcritic]

I really like the points you make, but I would say DUncan is much more adept at the power game than McHale, yet had less of a repertoire in terms of quantity of moves. I agree Duncan's strength and passing are both underrated. Duncan's passes are with more purpose than arguably all of the people on this list.

Regarding Hakeem, I don't think he relied on the turnaround as much as many seem to remember him. That was maybe only 20-30% of his game. He was as sick as DRob running the break, had a jump hook which was money, and really good midrange touch. I would also highly question DRob being a better overall defender, given:

1) Hakeem won 2 DPOY awards to DRob's 1
2) Hakeem had a ton more steals than DRob
3) Hakeem blocking more shots than DRob
4) Hakeem not getting lit up by anyone the way DRob was lit up in 95.

I would say that out of all the guys, DRob probably defended O'Neal the best out of anyone in the group, Hakeem included, but overall Hakeem was better defensively and offensively.

I highly question anyone's basketball knowledge who thinks Hakeem wasn't fast. Remember that block on Rod Strickland in the playoffs when he chased him down despite spotting him 25 feet? The guy was just as fast as David Robinson. His quickness was probably his greatest asset. This idea that he was some McHale who relied purely on skill is ludicrous.

You don't become the only Center in NBA history to rank in the top 10 in both blocks and steals alltime without being extremely fast and quick. That's just pure common sense.

I agree with you that Duncan relies more on power than McHale, as Kevin is nowhere near as strong.

But I (respectfully) disagree with Hakeem being quicker than Robinson. I absolutely worshipped Olajuwon before I came across Duncan, and whenever I saw Hakeem and Robinson together, it seemed that DRob was just slightly (just a weeeee bit) quicker than Hakeem. I always felt Robinson could guard PGs if he wanted to unlike Olajuwon. Nonetheless, both were the best defensive centers of the 90s.

Perhaps we can simply agree that in terms of speed, Hakeem and DRob are freaks compared to the rest of the bunch. :D

[venitian navigator]

Artis!!!
When he was in his prime (ABA) he was really a beast...stronger than O'Neal and not so "gentle" like he's been after (If I remember well, when he came here he was already more than 30 years old and had a knee injury)!

[whottt]

Those higher assist stats are partly due to DRobs unselfish nature. In fact, wasn't that one of the knocks against him...he deferred too much?

Um...the same year he did that he lead the NBA in scoring, becoming the first C to do that in about 25 years or so.

The reason he lead had such high assists totals that year was because his PG that year was a bad 2rd string 2 guard on just about any other team in the NBA...otherwise known as Vinny Del Negro.

You were saying? Scoring tititle...lead the team in assists. Same year. Also became the 4th player in NBA history to break 70 points in a game, the 4th to record a quadruple double, and the 3rd in NBA historyto finish the season in the top 30 in 6 different offensive categories...he was even second or third on the team in 3 pt PCT...played 40 minutes a game.


Hell of a good year...it was the worst team he ever played on, probably one of the worst backcourts in NBA history, the Spurs still won 55 something games...and after all that he had the worst post season of his career...I wonder why? Could it be because...without him the Spurs that year would have had trouble taking out a DivIIA JV team...I think so. Hakeem, Shaq, Ewing and Garnett wouldn't have even made the playoffs with that team...

[whottt]

^ Old DRob and old Hakeem are comparable.

The difference is DRob had Timmy.


You mind answering my most recent post? You know...the one where it's revealed that you don't know what the hell you are talking about...

[whottt]

This idea that Robinson had no skill and Hakeem's game was all about skill is getting vastly overstated.

Robinson had a very deadly face-up mid range jumper up to about 16 feet. If you played off him too much, he'd stick it consistently.

Robinson was also an excellent passing big man. When Duncan came to town, his ability to feed the post and run the high-low really showed how great of a passer he was.

Robinson also had a better handle than Hakeem. Hakeem's rapid decline in his late 30's also shows that his game relied more on athleticism than many seem to acknowledge. Once those quicks were gone, it was a different story. You seem to be describing Hakeem as a Tim Duncan, a guy who's game was purely about skill and average athleticism. This is just not the case at all.

I do remember Hakeem really having trouble with David early in David's career and the 6 point game in fact. Robinson really affected him. At that stage of their careers, DRob usually fared quite well in the matchups. Then in 93 Hakeem started to reach another level and really just took Robinson apart in the rest of their "in prime" matchups, esp the 95 series. He attained a level DRob just didnt have in him. But it's not a slight to DRob because the same happened to Ewing and O'Neal. It was more Hakeem excelling than Robinson sucking.


All this may be true...but Drob was a 6'4 guard who couldn't make it off the bench at a non basketball school, he enrolled in the Navy to get his college education in mathematics...he grew from 6'4 to 7'1 in a year or so and became the best player in college basketball setting NCAA records for blocks...

He grew so fast he never lost his guards speed..and that's the way he played, there was no learning or growing period, it was like they just stuck a quick guard in a 7 footers body...and boom, freak.

He sits out for 2 years and as a rookie blocks over 300 shots gets over 100 steals is second in blocks third in rebounding...and wins the IMB award...all that as rookie who had been sitting out for 2 years. In some ways his rookie season might have been his best.



I am not saying Hakeem wasn't a great athlete, he was a great athlete for a bigman, but he was still a true bigman...David was something different than that. He was an athletic freak. He was the fastest guy on the Spurs, he could walk from baseline to baseline on his hands, and on top of that his SAT qualified him for Mensa. He was just a blessed dude...he didn't have to work hard to develop a game. He played hard, but he never worked hard at developing his game beyond his freakish gifts, ya he could shoot good, but it was just sheer coordination...he didn't get that from shooting 100 shots per day in practice. He just did it.

And I agree that Hakeem kicked it up a level for that 2 year period..but Hakeem kept developing and refining his game to get to that point, Hakeem wasn't like that when he first came into the league, he added things to his game as he got older...point is still though, you can't coach speed, and Hakeem, nor anyone else, had the speed to handle the Admiral all by themselves and not foul out of the game. Look at his FTA compared to Hakeem's...look at how many times he lead the league in dunks...thing is, he wasn't picking up all those fouls for the same reason Shaq did...Drob could hit FT's, there was nothing to be gained by putting him on the line, those fouls were not wanted by the opposition.

[DirkAB]

He was the fastest guy on the Spurs, he could walk from baseline to baseline on his hands, and on top of that his SAT qualified him for Mensa. He was just a blessed dude...he didn't have to work hard to develop a game. He played hard, but he never worked hard at developing his game beyond his freakish gifts, ya he could shoot good, but it was just sheer coordination...he didn't get that from shooting 100 shots per day in practice. He just did it.


Seriously, how would you know this stuff? Is there a link or something to back any of this up? He didn't have to work hard at developing his game? How would some internet jocker have any idea what he put into his game, especially in comparison to other great centers?

If you can't dazzle us brilliance, then you're gonna try and baffle us with your bullshit. I don't know how anybody would even began to respond to one of your posts, it's like reading something written by somebody with a bad case of ADD, after he's been cluckin' meth all day.

[MadDog73]

If you can't dazzle us brilliance, then you're gonna try and baffle us with your bullshit. I don't know how anybody would even began to respond to one of your posts, it's like reading something written by somebody with a bad case of ADD, after he's been cluckin' meth all day.


as usual, when BAkriD has nothing else, he resorts to insults.

[DirkAB]

as usual, when BAkriD has nothing else, he resorts to insults.

Really, it was just an observation after going through the thread and reading the guy's posts, they gave me a headache.

BTW, you don't have much room to talk, you called me an asshole earlier in the thread, but you don't see me getting all butthurt over a little name.

[MadDog73]

Really, it was just an observation after going through the thread and reading the guy's posts, they gave me a headache.

BTW, you don't have much room to talk, you called me an asshole earlier in the thread, but you don't see me getting all butthurt over a little name.

You are an asshole. :lol

[DirkAB]

You are an asshole. :lol

And you're a HOMER.

[MadDog73]

And you're a HOMER.

I'll take it as a compliment. Hmmm, maybe I should get my Title changed to Homer, and my Avatar to a can of Duff beer...

[leemajors]

Alert. Bakrid Finds Spurs Homers On Spurs Board. News At 11.

[DirkAB]

Alert. Bakrid Finds Spurs Homers On Spurs Board. News At 11.

I get what you're saying, but he won't admit he's a big-time Homer. Actually he was quite offended by it, because that is why he called me an asshole in the first place. You probably don't find this as amusing as I do, but I thought I'd share anyway.

[Odogg]

OK, forget big men. Let's talk Guards! Here are the choices and how I rank them:

Magic, Parker, Ginoboli, Jordan, and Bird.

#1 Ginoboli- Just all around game man, he always plays hurt and does whatever his team needs to win. I've never seen anyone will their team to a win like him. He has got to be first hands down. What guts this man has.

2)Parker- The speedy Parker has changed the game man. The deft shooting touch and unbelievable ball handling just separates him from everyone else on that list. I think by the time his reign is over he may go down as the SINGLE Greatest player of all time.

3)Magic- Was a 6'9 Center trying to play PG man, he was a turnover machine. He's was lucky to get drafted. Plus, he's got Aids man!

4)Bird- Didn't quite have that shooting touch like Ginoboli man. I saw him make a decent pass once or twice but when the game was on the line, I would want to give the ball to Ginoboli over this guy everytime man.

5)MJ- It was always the refs man. They gave him ALL the calls. I bet he would have averaged around 7 points a game if it wasn't for Steve Javie man. Parker could have torched Jordan, in his prime man! I'm telling you, If Ginoboli and Parker got to play against MJ, they would have showed them who was the real deal man.

GO SPURS GO!!

[MadDog73]

You're a straight up HOMER with capital letters. Shaq was the most unguardable player to ever play in the modern era, at one time triple teams couldn't even stop him from scoring. Has anybody else in the modern age commanded such attention on the defensive end, and still been unstoppable? Not even close. David Robinson was a fucking role player for his second title, and he wasn't even the best player on his team during his first title, and you are discounting Shaq because of Kobe! Laughable. Did you drink a 12-pack of Duff before that post Homer?


:lol As I said, I'll take is as a compliment. You are a complete Shaq Homer.

[fyatuk]

OK, forget big men. Let's talk Guards! Here are the choices and how I rank them:

Magic, Parker, Ginoboli, Jordan, and Bird.

#1 Ginoboli- Just all around game man, he always plays hurt and does whatever his team needs to win. I've never seen anyone will their team to a win like him. He has got to be first hands down. What guts this man has.

2)Parker- The speedy Parker has changed the game man. The deft shooting touch and unbelievable ball handling just separates him from everyone else on that list. I think by the time his reign is over he may go down as the SINGLE Greatest player of all time.

3)Magic- Was a 6'9 Center trying to play PG man, he was a turnover machine. He's was lucky to get drafted. Plus, he's got Aids man!

4)Bird- Didn't quite have that shooting touch like Ginoboli man. I saw him make a decent pass once or twice but when the game was on the line, I would want to give the ball to Ginoboli over this guy everytime man.

5)MJ- It was always the refs man. They gave him ALL the calls. I bet he would have averaged around 7 points a game if it wasn't for Steve Javie man. Parker could have torched Jordan, in his prime man! I'm telling you, If Ginoboli and Parker got to play against MJ, they would have showed them who was the real deal man.

GO SPURS GO!!

LOL! Okay, that was a good one. But, uhhh.... Bird was a forward :P

[whottt]

Seriously, how would you know this stuff? Is there a link or something to back any of this up? He didn't have to work hard at developing his game? How would some internet jocker have any idea what he put into his game, especially in comparison to other great centers?

If you can't dazzle us brilliance, then you're gonna try and baffle us with your bullshit. I don't know how anybody would even began to respond to one of your posts, it's like reading something written by somebody with a bad case of ADD, after he's been cluckin' meth all day.


Dumbass...first of all, what kind idiot takes offense to a trivial side debate?


Secondly...I don't give a flying fuck if you believe me or not...you either can and be a smarter idiot for it, or you can not, and continue to be a dumbass. Actually, I think I am probably over-estimating you by thinking you have choice...

If you cannot figure out how I know what I know, I suggest you pull your dumb head out of your ass, type the words David Robinson in google, and go read his fucking biography rather than sitting here and being stupid. Then you can comeback and show me how how he did put as much time in as his contemporaries, and then you can try and prove it by showing improvement as he got older up until his injury.

It's not my fault you are stupid, why should I waste precious moments of my life educating a prick, (and a stupid one to boot)? It's obvious you don't what the fuck you are talking about, and it has been for this entire debate. Your problem, don't take it out on me.

[whottt]

I get what you're saying, but he won't admit he's a big-time Homer. Actually he was quite offended by it, because that is why he called me an asshole in the first place. You probably don't find this as amusing as I do, but I thought I'd share anyway.


No, you're an asshole...he was just being correct.

[Bartzini]

Im glad someone finally gave Kevin Mchale some credit.


I still seriously think he should rank 1, if not a very VERY close second on this list to Hakeem/Drob.


Im still going with my previous sentiments about shaq. If this was, who had the most intimidating presence in the post...he'd be a far far away number 1....but since this is a basketball skill post...he is / or was actually, kinda lacking. Lately he has been getting a lot more athletic and has impressed me with his game away from the paint.

[fyatuk]

Im glad someone finally gave Kevin Mchale some credit.


I still seriously think he should rank 1, if not a very VERY close second on this list to Hakeem/Drob.


Im still going with my previous sentiments about shaq. If this was, who had the most intimidating presence in the post...he'd be a far far away number 1....but since this is a basketball skill post...he is / or was actually, kinda lacking. Lately he has been getting a lot more athletic and has impressed me with his game away from the paint.

That close to what I think of Shaq. His skills have really developed the last few years as he falls further and further away from being the #1 option. If he had developed them earlier in his carreer, there'd be no debate.

[DirkAB]

Dumbass...first of all, what kind idiot takes offense to a trivial side debate?


Secondly...I don't give a flying fuck if you believe me or not...you either can and be a smarter idiot for it, or you can not, and continue to be a dumbass. Actually, I think I am probably over-estimating you by thinking you have choice...

If you cannot figure out how I know what I know, I suggest you pull your dumb head out of your ass, type the words David Robinson in google, and go read his fucking biography rather than sitting here and being stupid. Then you can comeback and show me how how he did put as much time in as his contemporaries, and then you can try and prove it by showing improvement as he got older up until his injury.

It's not my fault you are stupid, why should I waste precious moments of my life educating a prick, (and a stupid one to boot)? It's obvious you don't what the fuck you are talking about, and it has been for this entire debate. Your problem, don't take it out on me.


Whose offended? Me or you? I just made a simple observation about your posting style, don't sweat it. As far as me having to research your far out claims, you can pretty much forget that. I've no desire to go on any wild goose chases. If you can't simply post a link backing your claim, then I guess I can figure out why.

I guess since you are unwilling to post a link, that gives you more time to tell us about Robinson. So what was he doing when he wasn't quailifying for MENSA, walking the legnth of the court on his hands, or not working hard at developing his game? Please tell us more.

[whottt]

Whose offended? Me or you? I just made a simple observation about your posting style, don't sweat it. As far as me having to research your far out claims, you can pretty much forget that. I've no desire to go on any wild goose chases. If you can't simply post a link backing your claim, then I guess I can figure out why.

I guess since you are unwilling to post a link, that gives you more time to tell us about Robinson. So what was he doing when he wasn't quailifying for MENSA, walking the legnth of the court on his hands, or not working hard at developing his game? Please tell us more.


Playing chess, saxaphone, piano, building tv sets, going into the supermarket with his mom and tallying the bill in his head before they would get to the register, gymnastics...anything else you want to know, dumbass? Excuse me, lazy dumbass?

You'd do yourself a whole lot of good just by doing a little googling, but go ahead and keep proving your stupidity, it's much more entertaining.

[DirkAB]

Playing chess, saxaphone, piano, building tv sets, going into the supermarket with his mom and tallying the bill in his head before they would get to the register, gymastics...anything else you want to know, dumbass? Excuse me, lazy dumbass?

I don't know, what else do you know about him? Don't hold out on me.


The Unauthorized Biography of David Robinson, by Whottt

[DirkAB]

You'd do yourself a whole lot of good just by doing a little googling, but go ahead and keep proving your stupidity, it's much more entertaining.

If it is so easy to find this stuff on the internet then post a link!!! I'm not wasting my time looking for this ridiculous bullshit. You should have to prove your own bullshit, not me.

[fyatuk]

If it is so easy to find this stuff on the internet then post a link!!! I'm not wasting my time looking for this ridiculous bullshit. You should have to prove your own bullshit, not me.

Maybe, but logically he'd know a lot more about David than you, plus you've basically proved yourself incapable of making a strong argument anyway.

So why go through the effort?

And yes I'm sticking my nose in again ;)

[whottt]

I don't have to prove shit...you're the one who is ingorant of the subject matter here, if you elect to remain stupid, it's your problem, not mine. I'm not worried about proving anything to you. I've argued with you a thousand times my friend and this all old news and hardly groundbreaking stuff, youn un. It's only new to you...not to most of this board, and certainly not to me, and there's nothing unauthorized about it.

[TDMVPDPOY]

http://bani.anime.net/o_rly.jpg

[DirkAB]

I don't have to prove shit...you're the one who is ingorant of the subject matter here, if you elect to remain stupid, it's your problem, not mine. I'm not worried about proving anything to you. I've argued with you a thousand times my friend and this all old news and hardly groundbreaking stuff, youn un. It's only new to you...not to most of this board, and certainly not to me, and there's nothing unauthorized about it.

All I'm looking for is any kind of proof for the one statement, "he didn't have to work hard at developing his game." That is it, and then I'll leave you alone. If you won't post it to satisfy my curriosity then post it to proove me wrong, because I call bullshit on that statement. As I'm posting this, you are probably editting wikipedia.

[whottt]

Leave me alone or don't. He didn't have to work hard at developing his game, and he didn't. It actually is easily provable that he did less and spent less time developing his game than any of these other guys. I stand by the statement. One day you'll become smarter and realize I am right...it could be today, but it probably won't be, but it could be, if only you were even smart enough to type the words David Robinson in a search engine. Just think, you have the opportunity to become smarter in the palm of your hands right now...but you just won't do it...tsk tsk. I think you have a long stupid life ahead of you ;).

[Bartzini]

http://www.mega.bz/rotfl/images/argue091204.jpg

[waly.mg]

McHale was a great player, but not a Big Man

Less than 18 Points and 7.3 Rebounds don´t look like the numbers of one of the greatest Big Men of the NBA History

At least 20 Points or 10 boards are necessary, but both

[DirkAB]

Leave me alone or don't. He didn't have to work hard at developing his game, and he didn't. It actually is easily provable that he did less and spent less time developing his game than any of these other guys. I stand by the statement. One day you'll become smarter and realize I am right...it could be today, but it probably won't be, but it could be, if only you were even smart enough to type the words David Robinson in a search engine. Just think, you have the opportunity to become smarter in the palm of your hands right now...but you just won't do it...tsk tsk. I think you have a long stupid life ahead of you ;).

Do you actually think your little shtick gets you anywhere in this debate? I'm not baffled by your bullshit, I see straight through it. Obviously you would rather turn this into a putdown contest of sorts, instead of backing up things you call easily provable facts.

[MadDog73]

Do you actually think your little shtick gets you anywhere in this debate? I'm not baffled by your bullshit, I see straight through it. Obviously you would rather turn this into a putdown contest of sorts, instead of backing up things you call easily provable facts.


BAkriD, no offense man, but it's not like you're a fountain of information yourself.

You specialize in put downs, calling anyone "homers" or "fools" if they dare disagree that avg. career points decide who is the best.

As I said before, if people want a serious discussion, we need a consensus of:

What time periods constitute "Prime" for each big

What factors determine what is "best"



Of course, we won't ever get consensus on those factors, so this whole debate becomes a pissing contest.

[flipcritic]

McHale was a great player, but not a Big Man

Less than 18 Points and 7.3 Rebounds don´t look like the numbers of one of the greatest Big Men of the NBA History

At least 20 Points or 10 boards are necessary, but both

Well, you also have to take into account that in many of his seasons he played the sixth man role. So he didn't play as many minutes as he could have if he were Boston's primary weapon. Plus, he had very good rebounders in Larry Bird and Robert Parish, so boards weren't all to himself.

But it is a valid point that he is not a hefty sized PF/C. He weighed around 225lbs (but so did Buck Williams, and that didn't stop him from pushing his weight around). In today's NBA, if you're PF and don't weigh more than 240, you're in deep trouble against the Brands, the Okafors, the Stoudamires, and the Duncans.