Israel ends "seize fire" with civilian massacre

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Truce called off

The announcement comes a day after Hamas' military wing promised a resumption of attacks against Israel after a hiatus of more than a year. A leaflet issued by the Izzedine al Qassam Brigades said seven rockets were shot at Israel on Friday. On Saturday, the Israeli military confirmed 11 rocket launches into Israel from Gaza.

Hamas' action was prompted by a string of Israeli attacks, including an artillery shell blast that killed at least seven Palestinians picnicking on a northern Gaza beach on Friday.

The killings sparked swift and sustained outrage in the Palestinian territories and elsewhere; Israel Defense Forces has halted firing pending an investigation. (Watch Israeli and Palestinian forces square off -- 1:20 (http://javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:cnnVideo%28%27play%27,%27/video/world/2006/06/09/sweeney.mideast.beach.attack.cnn%27,%272006/06/17%27%29;))

In his Saturday speech, Abbas condemned the beach incident as a "despicable massacre ... the Israeli artillery was aimed at children, women -- innocent children and women who were sitting on the seashore, on the sea beach having fun on a normal weekend.

"Yesterday, a whole family was murdered, all its members, by the Israeli Defense Forces," Abbas said.

Israeli Chief of General Staff Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz said the military was investigating the possibility that it was not naval artillery that struck the Palestinians on the Gaza beach.

The IDF said earlier it had been firing on rocket-launching areas in Gaza after a militant attack earlier in the day. The target areas were believed to be uninhabited, a representative said.

The Israeli daily newspaper Haaretz reported IDF had apologized for the beach killings, saying it "regretted the strike on innocents."

Also Saturday, clashes erupted in Gaza City between Fatah and Hamas, Palestinian security sources said.

There were no reports of casualties, but the convoy of Rashid Abu Shbak was fired on during the funeral of an officer who was killed, sources said. Shbak heads three Palestinian services: Internal security, preventive security and the fire department.


Seriously... WTF! This is not something the Israeli government should be able fix with an "oops... sorry"! There better be some big motherfucking compensation for the family members.

[01Snake]

Seriously... WTF! This is not something the Israeli government should be able fix with an "oops... sorry"! There better be some big motherfucking compensation for the family members.

Uh...I guess Hamas has never killed innocent Israelies?? Hamas ONLY targets civilians. I guess the thousands of deal citizens of Israel should be compensated as well huh??

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Uh...I guess Hamas has never killed innocent Israelies?? Hamas ONLY targets civilians. I guess the thousands of deal citizens of Israel should be compensated as well huh??
yes because that makes everything alright right?? this isn't a sport jackass! its not about wether Hamas kills civilians or not, I don't support Hamas, but this shit is unnacceptable! Why the fuck is that so hard to understand for you people!!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

its not about wether Hamas kills civilians or not, I don't support Hamas, but this shit is unnacceptable! Why the fuck is that so hard to understand for you people!!

They've been fighting for 1500 years, what makes you think a cease fire is going to ever hold up?

[MaNuMaNiAc]

They've been fighting for 1500 years, what makes you think a cease fire is going to ever hold up?
I was just hoping the situation today would have been a bit more civilized than it was 1500 years ago. Killing women a children is not the sign of a civilized people, wether you do it with a car bomb, or a shelling.

[velik_m]

They've been fighting for 1500 years

not really...

terrorism and fighting started with Jews coming back to their promised land and forming a state of Israel.

[Darrin]

I am disappointed, but not shocked. This waxing and waning of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is normal. Faith is really the only way to believe this conflict is ever going to be solved without some form of genocide.

Both sides, and their leaders, must grow tired with hating each other. I'm not sure, without more bloodshed, that type of understanding can truly be reached. In short, they have to want peace, want peace so badly that a suicide bomber doesn't restart a conflict and break down peace plans.

Anyone who think religion doesn't have an evil side - take a look at the history of this conflict. Both groups believe this piece of land was given to them from on high. And when absolute right, when God stands on both sides, who can be against? It's real estate agents with missile capacity and assumed spiritual authority.

[clubalien]

In a repbulic-democracy the people vote in repositivies and those people make and put in policies of the people. In a dicatorship the dude does whatever he wants. Thefore because the politians are just acting out the will of the people. The people are the ones makeing decsions on what to do. If a dictator does something it is invaild to go after citzens because they aren't responsible for the actions of the government. However, because the USA and iseral are ruled by their people. IT is perfectly vaild to go after the people supporting the policies. If you are againts the policies. Remember it isn;t the iserally government or US government killing inccoent people. It is the USA citzens (or majority that voted them into office.) So not every citzen is a innocent one. If they decided to put a policy in place and people don;t like that policy. They have to take responsibility that actions have consquences.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I was just hoping the situation today would have been a bit more civilized than it was 1500 years ago

The problem is the radislamists want the whole world to go back to the way it was 1500 years ago. You're going to be wishing for modern civilization a long time if they're involved.


not really...

terrorism and fighting started with Jews coming back to their promised land and forming a state of Israel.

Read some more history books. Muslims have been fighting non-Muslims since Mohammed founded his religion 'of peace' one fateful day a loooooong time ago.

I guess Muslims raiding Christian and Jewish settlements and cutting peoples' heads off back in the Crusades, etc. doesn't qualify as terrorism?

[01Snake]

yes because that makes everything alright right?? this isn't a sport jackass! its not about wether Hamas kills civilians or not, I don't support Hamas, but this shit is unnacceptable! Why the fuck is that so hard to understand for you people!!

Never said it was a sport dipshit. Where is the outrage everytime Hamas strikes?? Also, I wouldn't be so quick to accept the report as being true.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Never said it was a sport dipshit. Where is the outrage everytime Hamas strikes?? Also, I wouldn't be so quick to accept the report as being true.
well it just eludes me how the fuck you can hear about 11 innocent people being killed including women and children, and not give a fuck. I assume you don't give a fuck since you're already making excuses for it. Are you that fucking jaded??

[Extra Stout]

In a repbulic-democracy the people vote in repositivies and those people make and put in policies of the people. In a dicatorship the dude does whatever he wants. Thefore because the politians are just acting out the will of the people. The people are the ones makeing decsions on what to do. If a dictator does something it is invaild to go after citzens because they aren't responsible for the actions of the government. However, because the USA and iseral are ruled by their people. IT is perfectly vaild to go after the people supporting the policies. If you are againts the policies. Remember it isn;t the iserally government or US government killing inccoent people. It is the USA citzens (or majority that voted them into office.) So not every citzen is a innocent one. If they decided to put a policy in place and people don;t like that policy. They have to take responsibility that actions have consquences.
Well, Palestine has a democratically elected government, and they have democratically elected Hamas, who swears to destroy Israel.

So by your logic, the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians is OK.

[velik_m]

Well, Palestine has a democratically elected government, and they have democratically elected Hamas, who swears to destroy Israel.

So by your logic, the indiscriminate killing of Palestinians is OK.

yes, but was the killing done by the palestinian goverment?

[velik_m]

Read some more history books. Muslims have been fighting non-Muslims since Mohammed founded his religion 'of peace' one fateful day a loooooong time ago.

I guess Muslims raiding Christian and Jewish settlements and cutting peoples' heads off back in the Crusades, etc. doesn't qualify as terrorism?

please give me event names, places, dates to those masacres - enlighten me.

jews and orthodox christians were mostly killed by christians in the crusades.

[Extra Stout]

yes, but was the killing done by the palestinian goverment?
Well, yes, Hamas is the government of Palestine.

[clubalien]

I agree the palestine PEOPLE have to accept by freeely electing hamas that the US and euro countries woudl DENEY them AID MONEY.

elections have consquences deal with it.

[velik_m]

Well, yes, Hamas is the government of Palestine.

touche...

[scott]

I am disappointed, but not shocked. This waxing and waning of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict is normal. Faith is really the only way to believe this conflict is ever going to be solved without some form of genocide.

Both sides, and their leaders, must grow tired with hating each other. I'm not sure, without more bloodshed, that type of understanding can truly be reached. In short, they have to want peace, want peace so badly that a suicide bomber doesn't restart a conflict and break down peace plans.

Anyone who think religion doesn't have an evil side - take a look at the history of this conflict. Both groups believe this piece of land was given to them from on high. And when absolute right, when God stands on both sides, who can be against? It's real estate agents with missile capacity and assumed spiritual authority.

Well said Darrin.

The Palenstinian and Israeli governments are both terrorist organizations... it's just that one of them has been outfitted with tanks and nukes.

[Trainwreck2100]

not really...

terrorism and fighting started with Jews coming back to their promised land and forming a state of Israel.


actually before they went back there were Jewish Terrorists.

[01Snake]

well it just eludes me how the fuck you can hear about 11 innocent people being killed including women and children, and not give a fuck. I assume you don't give a fuck since you're already making excuses for it. Are you that fucking jaded??

So is it this particular instance thats pissed you off so much you thought you would post about it? Why are you not posting on a daily basis about the daily slaughter of Iraqi civilians by insurgents?

I am not making any excuses. That whole section of the world is fucked up and the killings have been going on for a long time. Its hard to give a fuck when nobody over their wants change. I mean how many years does it take to get a handle on the situation??

[Gerryatrics]

Here's the video from al-Jazeera of the massacre. Be forewarned it's a horrible sight, with the dozens of bodies... almost entirely women and children. I could barely handle it as a little Palestinian girl stricken with grief was barely able to follow the director's instructions as she cried out for her father. When will the world learn, there will be no peace until there are no more Jooooooooooooos!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WaCJn4hdjc

[jochhejaam]

...Israeli government(s) <is a> terrorist organization...
Surrounded by Countries that deny your very right to exist and defending your people from annihilation equates to being a terrorist organization?
That's a mind-numbing charge.

Again, as Jack Kelly so aptly pointed out when talking about our military and I'll add Israel, these incidents are routinely described as "massacres," a term journalists don't use when insurgents bomb a mosque or a marketplace.

Unlike the Palestinians and Hamas, Israel wasn't targeting civilians, the artillery shells fired were "in response to rising Palestinian rocket fire into Israel". I put the deaths at the squarely at the feet of the Palestinian terrorists. No rocket fire into Israel = no misguided artillery fired in response = no civilian deaths.

[01Snake]

Surrounded by Countries that deny your very right to exist and defending your people from annihilation equates to being a terrorist organization?
That's a mind-numbing charge.

Again, as Jack Kelly so aptly pointed out when talking about our military and I'll add Israel, these incidents are routinely described as "massacres," a term journalists don't use when insurgents bomb a mosque or a marketplace.

Unlike the Palestinians and Hamas, Israel wasn't targeting civilians, the artillery shells fired were "in response to rising Palestinian rocket fire into Israel". I put the deaths at the squarely at the feet of the Palestinian terrorists. No rocket fire into Israel = no misguided artillery fired in response = no civilian deaths.

VERY well put! For every action, there is a reaction over there. Stop fucking with Israel and you wont have them retaliating.

[MannyIsGod]

Surrounded by Countries that deny your very right to exist and defending your people from annihilation equates to being a terrorist organization?
That's a mind-numbing charge.

Again, as Jack Kelly so aptly pointed out when talking about our military and I'll add Israel, these incidents are routinely described as "massacres," a term journalists don't use when insurgents bomb a mosque or a marketplace.

Unlike the Palestinians and Hamas, Israel wasn't targeting civilians, the artillery shells fired were "in response to rising Palestinian rocket fire into Israel". I put the deaths at the squarely at the feet of the Palestinian terrorists. No rocket fire into Israel = no misguided artillery fired in response = no civilian deaths.
Our own State Department reports on countless violations of human rights by the Israeli government that put them right up there with China. However, when it comes to China we argue for non inclusion in the WTO and the like, but with Isreal we supply them with the nessecary goods to run not only their military but their entire country. We are the Israeli economy.

There is no place for the United States in this conflict any longer. Israel doesn't listen to us, they do what they want and they make things worse much of the time. The very existance of Israel is a very questionable thing yet no one ever thinks about that when questioning why countries have sworn for the destruction of their state.

Who here would support the UN coming in and taking a chunk out of America and granting it to Native Americans in order for them to establish a sovriegn nation? Would you support that for the victims of a genocide Joch? Would you aruge the extermination of the Native Americans was any different than what occured in the Holocaust?

Much in the world is decided by the people who have the power to impliment what they want done. There is no right or wrong in the world, just what you can do and get away with. At this point, America pulling its money out of Israel would provide a good deal of needed humility to that side of the conflict. Let the fight even out, and then lets see how long it takes them to come to a working solution. As long as Israel gets whatever it wants from the United States without having to make any real concessions of substance you can forget about having any peace in the region. The attacks will continue untill both sides really inflict mind numbing pain on each other. Good riddance to both of these nations. Let them all fight over meaningless dirt.

Men of faith should understand that no Gods kingdom is in this world, holy land or not.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Our own State Department reports on countless violations of human rights by the Israeli government that put them right up there with China. However, when it comes to China we argue for non inclusion in the WTO and the like, but with Isreal we supply them with the nessecary goods to run not only their military but their entire country. We are the Israeli economy.

There is no place for the United States in this conflict any longer. Israel doesn't listen to us, they do what they want and they make things worse much of the time. The very existance of Israel is a very questionable thing yet no one ever thinks about that when questioning why countries have sworn for the destruction of their state.

Who here would support the UN coming in and taking a chunk out of America and granting it to Native Americans in order for them to establish a sovriegn nation? Would you support that for the victims of a genocide Joch? Would you aruge the extermination of the Native Americans was any different than what occured in the Holocaust?

Much in the world is decided by the people who have the power to impliment what they want done. There is no right or wrong in the world, just what you can do and get away with. At this point, America pulling its money out of Israel would provide a good deal of needed humility to that side of the conflict. Let the fight even out, and then lets see how long it takes them to come to a working solution. As long as Israel gets whatever it wants from the United States without having to make any real concessions of substance you can forget about having any peace in the region. The attacks will continue untill both sides really inflict mind numbing pain on each other. Good riddance to both of these nations. Let them all fight over meaningless dirt.

Men of faith should understand that no Gods kingdom is in this world, holy land or not.
:tu

[MaNuMaNiAc]

So is it this particular instance thats pissed you off so much you thought you would post about it? Why are you not posting on a daily basis about the daily slaughter of Iraqi civilians by insurgents?

I am not making any excuses. That whole section of the world is fucked up and the killings have been going on for a long time. Its hard to give a fuck when nobody over their wants change. I mean how many years does it take to get a handle on the situation??
I see, so I should hold the American and the Israeli governments to the same standards I hold terrorists. I've come to expect more from them than insurgents but perhaps I was pushing it, they appear to be on the same fucking uncivilized level I guess http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

[velik_m]

Our own State Department reports on countless violations of human rights by the Israeli government that put them right up there with China. However, when it comes to China we argue for non inclusion in the WTO and the like, but with Isreal we supply them with the nessecary goods to run not only their military but their entire country. We are the Israeli economy.

There is no place for the United States in this conflict any longer. Israel doesn't listen to us, they do what they want and they make things worse much of the time. The very existance of Israel is a very questionable thing yet no one ever thinks about that when questioning why countries have sworn for the destruction of their state.

Who here would support the UN coming in and taking a chunk out of America and granting it to Native Americans in order for them to establish a sovriegn nation? Would you support that for the victims of a genocide Joch? Would you aruge the extermination of the Native Americans was any different than what occured in the Holocaust?

Much in the world is decided by the people who have the power to impliment what they want done. There is no right or wrong in the world, just what you can do and get away with. At this point, America pulling its money out of Israel would provide a good deal of needed humility to that side of the conflict. Let the fight even out, and then lets see how long it takes them to come to a working solution. As long as Israel gets whatever it wants from the United States without having to make any real concessions of substance you can forget about having any peace in the region. The attacks will continue untill both sides really inflict mind numbing pain on each other. Good riddance to both of these nations. Let them all fight over meaningless dirt.

Men of faith should understand that no Gods kingdom is in this world, holy land or not.
:tu i was going to write a reply but you pretty much covered everything i wanted to say, even the native indians example i was planing to give.

i would just like to add that america's servitude towards Israel never stops to amaze me. USA = Israel's bitch.

[01Snake]

Who here would support the UN coming in and taking a chunk out of America and granting it to Native Americans in order for them to establish a sovriegn nation? Would you support that for the victims of a genocide Joch? Would you aruge the extermination of the Native Americans was any different than what occured in the Holocaust?



So are you saying the Palastinians occupied that land BEFORE the Jews were ever there?

[jochhejaam]

From Wikipedia


Zionism and Aliyah
The first wave of modern Jewish immigration to Israel, or Aliyah (òìééä) started in 1881 as Jews fled persecution, or followed the Socialist Zionist ideas of Moses Hess and others of "redemption of the soil". Jews bought land from Ottoman and individual Arab landholders. After Jews established agricultural settlements, tensions erupted between the Jews and Arabs.

Theodor Herzl (1860–1904), an Austrian Jew, founded the Zionist movement. In 1896, he published Der Judenstaat (The Jewish State), in which he called for the establishment of a national Jewish state. The following year he helped convene the first World Zionist Congress.

The establishment of Zionism led to the Second Aliyah (1904–1914) with the influx of around 40,000 Jews. In 1917, the British Foreign Secretary Arthur J. Balfour issued the Balfour Declaration that "view[ed] with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people". In 1920, Palestine became a League of Nations mandate administered by Britain.

Jewish immigration resumed in third (1919–1923) and fourth (1924–1929) waves after World War I. Arab riots in Palestine of 1929 killed 133 Jews, including 67 in Hebron.

The rise of Nazism in 1933 led to a fifth wave of Aliyah. The Jews in the region increased from 11% of the population in 1922 to 30% by 1940. 28% of the land was already legitimately bought and owned by Zionist organizations plus additional private land owned by Jews. The southern half of the country is the barren and mostly empty Negev desert.The subsequent Holocaust in Europe led to additional immigration from other parts of Europe. By the end of World War II, the number of Jews in Palestine was approximately 600,000.

In 1939, the British introduced a White Paper of 1939, which limited Jewish immigration over the course of the war to 75,000 and restricted purchase of land by Jews, perhaps in response to the Great Arab Uprising (1936-1939). The White Paper was seen as a betrayal by the Jewish community and Zionists, who perceived it as being in conflict with the Balfour Declaration of 1917. The Arabs were not entirely satisfied either, as they wanted Jewish immigration halted completely. However, the White Paper guided British policy until the end of the term of their Mandate.

British Mandate of Palestine
As tensions grew between the Jewish and Arab populations, and with apparently no support from the British Mandate authorities, the Jewish community decided it would have to rely on itself for defense.

Arab nationalists opposed to the Balfour declaration, the mandate and the Jewish National Home, instigated riots and pogroms against Jews in Jerusalem, Hebron, Jaffa and Haifa. As a result of the 1921 Arab attacks, the Haganah was formed to protect Jewish settlements. The Haganah was mostly defensive in nature, which among other things caused several members to split off and form the Irgun (initially known as Hagana Bet) in 1931. The Irgun adhered to a much more active approach, which included retaliation to attacks and initiation of armed actions against the British, while the Haganah often preferred restraint. A further split occurred when Avraham Stern left the Irgun to form Lehi, which was much more extreme in its methods and unlike the Irgun, refused any co-operation with the British, even during World War II.

These groups had an enormous impact on events and procedures in the period preceding the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, such as Aliya Beth-the clandestine immigration from Europe, the forming of the Israel Defense Forces, and the withdrawal of the British, as well as to a great degree forming the foundation of the political parties which exist in Israel today.

Establishment of the State

Ben Gurion pronounces the Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel on May 14, 1948 in Tel Aviv.Main article: Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel
In 1947, following increasing levels of violence together with unsuccessful efforts to reconcile the Jewish and Arab populations, the British government decided to withdraw from the Palestine Mandate. The UN General Assembly approved the 1947 UN Partition Plan dividing the territory into two states, with the Jewish area consisting of roughly 55% of the land (60% of which is considered part of the inhospitable Negev Desert, and all of which is absent of any religiously significant sites), and the Arab area roughly 45%. Jerusalem was planned to be an international region administered by the UN to avoid conflict over its status.

Immediately following the adoption of the Partition Plan by the UN General Assembly on November 29, 1947, David Ben-Gurion tentatively accepted the partition, while the Arab League rejected it. Several Arab attacks on Jewish civilians soon turned into widespread fighting between Arabs and Jews, this civil war being the first "phase" of the 1948 War of Independence.

On May 14, 1948, before the expiry of the British Mandate of Palestine at midnight on May 15, 1948, the State of Israel was proclaimed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel#Establishment_of_the_State

[jochhejaam]

yes the palestinians occupied that land before the jews were there idiot


No nation, other than the ancient nation of Israel and later again in 1948 with the rebirth of the 2nd Nation of Israel, has ever ruled as a sovereign national entity on this land. A mighty Jewish empire extended over this entire area before the Arabs --- and their Islam --- were even born! The Jewish People have one of the most legitimate Birth Certificates of any nations in the world. Every time there is an archaeological dig in Israel, it does nothing but support the fact that the Jewish People have had a presence there for well over 3,000 years. The national coins, the pottery, the cities, the ancient Hebrew texts... all support this claim...

http://www.masada2000.org/

[01Snake]

yes the palestinians occupied that land before the jews were there idiot

HAHA Dumbass

[MannyIsGod]

And none of that matters. The fact is that an outside pressence was given control over land that was not theirs. You would never support that in any other context than what has occured there.

[jochhejaam]

And none of that matters. The fact is that an outside pressence was given control over land that was not theirs.
It doesn't matter because Manny says so? :lol The United Nations says it does matter.

BTW, the Israeli's weren't an outside presence they were living in the territory.

And who did the land belong to Manny? If it wasn't the Arabs then what's the problem? It was divided with land given to both the Arabs and the Jews, sounds fair to me. Of course if someone were anti-semitic...

[jochhejaam]

joch and 01snake

not read up on your old testament i guess?
Educate us my friend.

[MannyIsGod]

Damn, theres a new one. Someone calling me anti semtic simply because I argue against Israeli actions and legitimacy.

See, the UN says that they are legitmate, but you don't want to follow the UN any other time do you? Only when convinient. And as I asked before, would you support the UN coming and taking a few states from the US and forming a Native American nation? I think not.

[scott]

But if the UN gave half of the US up for the formation of a Native American nation... and then gave them nukes... then it would be okay.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=MannyIsGod]Damn, theres a new one. Someone calling me anti semtic simply because I argue against Israeli actions and legitimacy.
I didn't call you anti-semitic, the quote was "Of course if someone were anti-semitic...". If the shoe fits wear it.





[QUOTE]See, the UN says that they are legitmate, but you don't want to follow the UN any other time do you?
I don't see how answering that is relevant to the present discussion but I don't follow their decisions blindly one way or the other. <shrugs>







Only when convinient. And as I asked before, would you support the UN coming and taking a few states from the US and forming a Native American nation? I think not.
Hypothethics and side issues aren't the most effective way of disputing an issue Manny. Bring something real to the table.

[jochhejaam]

But if the UN gave half of the US up for the formation of a Native American nation... and then gave them nukes... then it would be okay.
Who's giving who nukes?

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

Why do I bother? They hypothetical is very relevent. It shows how hipocritical the United States policy concerning situations like Israel is. And that is a cornerstone as to why diplomacy in the region never works. NOBODY HAS ANY CREDIBILITY.

Theres no reason for the United States to be involved with the exception of political capital gained for supporting Israel in this country. Washington knew all about the trouble foriegn engtanglements get you into, and the war on terror can be traced directly to this one.

[scott]

Well, we've got these French built nuclear reactors being fueled by French reactor fuel. Of course Israel promised (wink wink) they weren't building nuclear weapons. Easy for the countries (France, Britain) to look the other way while encouraging Israel go and provide a pretext for peacekeepers to re-enter the Egyptian Green Zone and reopen the Suez Canal.

All the while, the US knows this is going on as early as 1960 but decides to look the other way as well.

[Ya Vez]

gee you mean sunni arabs don't kill sheite arabs.. and there wasn't any violence today against hamas by other palestinian arabs loyal to abbas... I guess we can blame all that on Israel too.... funny how the press here will talk about the families of those killed by israeli shells .. but won't mention the kutasha rockets that killed israeli soldiers the day before.... and their families....

[velik_m]

Hypothethics and side issues aren't the most effective way of disputing an issue Manny. Bring something real to the table.

i will save that quote for discussions on why USA attacked Iraq.



Who's giving who nukes?

Israel has nuclear weapons.

[Ya Vez]

oh the horror where is the outcry...

RAMALLAH, West Bank - Hundreds of Palestinian security forces loyal to President Mahmoud Abbas went on a rampage against the Hamas-led government, riddling the parliament building and Cabinet offices with bullets before setting them ablaze in the most serious violence since Hamas won January elections.


The riots Monday cast doubt on renewed calls for Palestinian unity by leaders of Abbas' Fatah movement and Hamas, raising new fears the Palestinians were headed toward civil war.

It also coincided with heightened violence with Israel following a blast on a Gaza beach that killed eight civilians, and prompted Hamas to call off a 16-month truce.

Palestinians say an Israeli artillery shell fired at militants' rocket-launching operations caused Friday's explosion. Israeli military officials said Tuesday, however, that an army investigation will conclude a Palestinian mine likely caused the blast. The military panel was expected to issue its findings later in the day.

Abbas, a moderate who was elected separately last year, has been locked in a bitter power struggle with Hamas, which does not recognize Israel and has refused to disarm its militia, despite punishing cutoffs of international funding. The dispute, which has spilled over into militias loyal to both sides, has focused largely on control of the powerful security forces.

Twenty Palestinians have been killed in infighting over the past month — mostly in Gaza, Hamas' stronghold. Monday's violence signaled that Fatah is now ready to move the conflict to its West Bank power center.

Late Monday, hundreds of members of the Fatah-dominated Preventive Security force shot out the windows of the parliament building before storming the two-building Cabinet complex, where they smashed furniture, destroyed computers and tore up documents. No casualties were reported.

Shooting wildly in the air, the mob then set fire to one of the Cabinet buildings, gutting the fourth floor. When a fire engine approached the scene, one gunman lay on the road, preventing it from reaching the building.

"Every time they touch one of ours in Gaza, we will get 10 of theirs in the West Bank," said one member of the security force. Dozens of gunmen from a pro-Fatah militia joined the mob.

The crowd also set fire to the parliament building and a Hamas office. Both blazes were quickly contained. Abbas' presidential guard later arrived to guard the burnt-out buildings.

Late Monday, Fatah gunmen briefly abducted a Hamas lawmaker, Khalil Rabei, after attacking his office and setting it on fire. Rabei said he was kicked and threatened before he was released.

Abbas' personal guard granted refuge to Rabei and nine other Hamas lawmakers, and was ordered to escort the men home safely.

The rampage in Ramallah followed an attack by Hamas gunmen on a Preventive Security installation in Gaza, which set off daylong clashes that left two people dead and 14 wounded.

Abbas was in Gaza at the time of the rampage, where he has been holding negotiations with Hamas in hopes of ending the political deadlock.

"The president strongly condemns the attacks and the assault against the public institutions and the building that took place in the West Bank tonight," said a statement issued by Abbas' office.

Early Tuesday, several thousand Hamas supporters demonstrated outside the Palestinian parliament building in Gaza City. They condemned the violence in Ramallah, and threatened retaliation against the Preventive Security forces.

"What happened today in Ramallah is very shameful and I think the president did not use all his efforts to prevent it," said Hamas spokesman Sami Abu Zuhri.

Hamas planned another demonstration in Ramallah later Tuesday, and Fatah planned a protest in the West Bank town of Jenin.

Officials said Abbas had appointed a retired commander to serve as a military adviser and liaison to the Hamas-run Interior Ministry. The appointment of Lt. Gen. Abdel Razek Majaide, who is respected by Fatah and Hamas alike, could help to ease tensions.

Internal tensions have spiked since Abbas scheduled a July 26 referendum on a plan that calls for recognition of Israel. Abbas has endorsed the plan as a way out of the stalemate, but Hamas objects to the vote.

In a conciliatory gesture on Monday, the Hamas-dominated Palestinian parliament delayed until June 20 a vote on a plan to block the referendum. But the violence cast serious doubts on the efforts to bridge the gaps.

While Abbas was trying to persuade Palestinians to rally behind his peace efforts, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert was in Europe trying to sell his planned West Bank pullback.

In London on Monday, Olmert said he would make "every possible effort" to negotiate peace with the Palestinians but will act unilaterally if no agreement can be reached.

Under Olmert's program, Israel would pull out of most of the territory and dismantle dozens of Jewish settlements — but also retain key areas, including land around Jerusalem and part of the city the Palestinians seek for their capital.

Olmert said the pullout would encompass 90 percent of the West Bank. And he left the door open to future negotiated pullouts even if the initial phase is unilateral and partial.

"What will happen when we will come to the point of the 90 percent of the territories, and the remaining 10 percent remains to be seen?" he said. If "the day will come when the Palestinians will be ready to negotiate with us ... I will then be willing to come to discuss it in detail."

Israel, which withdrew unilaterally from all of the Gaza Strip last year, has repeatedly said it would not negotiate with the Palestinians unless Hamas first disarms its militia, recognizes Israel, and accepts past peace agreements.

Olmert is to meet with officials in Paris on Tuesday.

[Ya Vez]

more bad news for the leftist....

Probe: Deadly Gaza blast not caused by Israel
Eight deaths on beach likely result of explosives planted by Hamas

Updated: 1:50 a.m. CT June 13, 2006
JERUSALEM - An Israeli investigation into what caused an explosion on a Gaza beach that killed eight Palestinians will conclude that the blast was most likely caused by a mine planted by Palestinian militants and not an Israeli shell, military officials said Tuesday.

The Palestinians had blamed an Israeli shell for the killing of the civilians in the northern Gaza Strip on Friday, and had recognized as a hero a Palestinian girl whose image was broadcast around the world crying over her father’s body at the scene.

While Israel had originally left open the possibility that it was responsible and expressed sorrow for the deaths, senior officials had suggested that Palestinian militants could have planted explosives on the beach and the army opened an investigation.

The military committee looking into the blast is expected to issue its findings later Tuesday.

The committee will announce that Israel was almost certainly not involved in the explosion and it was caused by explosives planted by the Hamas militant group, military officials said on condition of anonymity since the results were not official yet.


CLICK HERE FOR RELATED STORY
Gunmen rampage in West Bank

Explosives not made in Israel
The blast occurred on the outskirts of the town of Beit Lahia, not far from where Palestinian militants frequently fire rockets toward Israel. Israel often shoots artillery in the area to prevent the rocket launchings.

According to the findings, shrapnel taken from two wounded Palestinians who were evacuated to Israeli hospitals showed that the explosives were not made in Israel, the officials said. In addition, the last Israeli shell fired toward Palestinian rocket launchers who operate in the area was seven minutes before the blast and landed 250 yards from the scene, the officials said.

Also, after the blast, Israeli military viewed Hamas militants collecting the shrapnel from the area, in an apparent effort to prevent authorities from revealing that the explosion was caused by explosives it had laid, the officials said.

The results of the investigation are also based on threats by Hamas to stop Israeli naval commandos from landing on the beach after group militants were killed in the area in an ambush by Israeli navy divers last month, the officials said.

The army has accounted for five of six of the shells that it fired in the area Friday evening before the blast, the officials said. The one shell that is not accounted for was fired before the five others — more than ten minutes before the blast that killed the Palestinians — and apparently landed further away than the shells that were fired later, the officials said.

© 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=MannyIsGod]:lmao

Why do I bother? They hypothetical is very relevent. It shows how hipocritical the United States policy concerning situations like Israel is. And that is a cornerstone as to why diplomacy in the region never works. NOBODY HAS ANY CREDIBILITY.
Based on the strength of your arguements, I too wonder why you bother. Hypothetical means nothing more than conjecture. It's something that's asked out of curiosity (it didn't happen and in the case of your hypothesis it's remote to the point of being laughable) and has no bearing (read relevance) on the discussion.

Back to the drawing board for thee. :lol

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=velik_m]i will save that quote for discussions on why USA attacked Iraq.
Actually it's copywrite material so you'll need to get written permission from its author before doing so. :lol



Israel has never admitted to having nukes but it's believed they have between 100 and 200. Nice deterrent for those that would like to see them wiped off the face of the earth.

[velik_m]

[QUOTE]
Based on the strength of your arguements, I too wonder why you bother. Hypothetical means nothing more than conjecture. It's something that's asked out of curiosity (it didn't happen and in the case of your hypothesis it's remote to the point of being laughable) and has no bearing (read relevance) on the discussion.

Back to the drawing board for thee. :lol

Jews want their state in Palestina, because that's always been their land. You claim that Palestinians should move out and let them have their state on Palestinian land.

now replace jews with indians (native americans) and palestinians with americans. you get:

Indians want their state in Ameriaca, because that's always been their land. You claim that Americans should move out and let them have their state on American land.

I belive someday the hampster in your head will gather enough energy to light up that bulb.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=velik_m]Jews want their state in Palestina, because that's always been their land. You claim that Palestinians should move out and let them have their state on Palestinian land.
False! Show me where I said that velik!

When you can come up with a premise that's not an outright lie we can move forward with the discussion.

[velik_m]

[QUOTE]
False! Show me where I said that velik!

When you can come up with a premise that's not an outright lie we can move forward with the discussion.

if you support the israel, you support that policy. When jews came to Israel they didn't say: "hey palestinians lets have a kick ass state together". no they wanted a jewish state. And the only way to have that kind of state was to move Palestinians away

4,255,120 Palestinians are registered as refugees with UNRWA; this number includes the descendants of refugees from the 1948 war, but excludes those who have emigrated to areas outside of the UNRWA's remit [10]
Thus almost half of all Palestinians are registered refugees.

So do you support exsistance of Israel or not?

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=velik_m]if you support the israel, you support that policy.
I can't/won't deal with someone that falsely attributes statements to me and tells me what my position is on policy. Enjoy carrying the discussion for me, I'll tune in later to see how I fared.

[Gerryatrics]

Man, all I know is that if freakin' Indians went around saying they wanted their own land, with sovereignty and freedom from Local and State laws, I'd put on a suicide belt and blow up a few Indians without hesitation. No way in hell I'd allow American Indians to be given American land. Now that you guys have swayed me, I think I'll go kill a few Jews. If we don't eradicate the Zionists, Indians will have their own land. Bastards!

[velik_m]

Man, all I know is that if freakin' Indians went around saying they wanted their own land, with sovereignty and freedom from Local and State laws, I'd put on a suicide belt and blow up a few Indians without hesitation. No way in hell I'd allow American Indians to be given American land. Now that you guys have swayed me, I think I'll go kill a few Jews. If we don't eradicate the Zionists, Indians will have their own land. Bastards!

You wouldn't need suicide belt because you have nukes, the palestinians don't have that "luxury".

[velik_m]

[QUOTE]
I can't/won't deal with someone that falsely attributes statements to me and tells me what my position is on policy. Enjoy carrying the discussion for me, I'll tune in later to see how I fared.

i apologize if i accused you of something untrue, but my question still stands:



So do you support exsistance of Israel or not?

[Gerryatrics]

Yeah, but that's what Iran is for. We just sit back, let them build up their Nuclear Weapons program, they'll make sure "Israel is wiped off the map" and we're free from the filthy Jews forever. Then we can all live in peace, the Palestinians will finally have their land back (of course they'll all be dead due to the nuclear strikes, but as soon as the Jews are gone we don't really need Palestinians) and we can all sit down in a drum circle and sing kumbya. Then we'll wipe out all the Indians... damn Indians.

[velik_m]

Yeah, but that's what Iran is for. We just sit back, let them build up their Nuclear Weapons program, they'll make sure "Israel is wiped off the map" and we're free from the filthy Jews forever. Then we can all live in peace, the Palestinians will finally have their land back (of course they'll all be dead due to the nuclear strikes, but as soon as the Jews are gone we don't really need Palestinians) and we can all sit down in a drum circle and sing kumbya. Then we'll wipe out all the Indians... damn Indians.

you wouldn't mind moving out of seattle to make way for a new country?

[Gerryatrics]

...Uhhh, half of Western Washington is made up of Indian Reservations.

[velik_m]

...Uhhh, half of Western Washington is made up of Indian Reservations.

thats not the question: would you leave your land, so someone could "reclaim" it, because his ancestors lived there 2 millenia ago?

[Gerryatrics]

Maybe I wasn't laying it on thick enough... See, when I was talking about Indians being given their own land I was being facetious. In the United States we have what are called Indian Reservations, land set aside for federally recognized American Indian tribes. While on Tribal land Indians are generally free of Local and State law, instead having Tribal and Federal laws. See, I was mocking the ridiculous argument that Americans would turn into suicide bombers if Indians demanded their own state...

[Gerryatrics]

thats not the question: would you leave your land, so someone could "reclaim" it, because his ancestors lived there 2 millenia ago?

No. But I would leave my land if a local Indian tribe claimed it as Tribal lands and the Federal Government agreed and recognized that said land was Indian land.

[velik_m]

Maybe I wasn't laying it on thick enough... See, when I was talking about Indians being given their own land I was being facetious. In the United States we have what are called Indian Reservations, land set aside for federally recognized American Indian tribes. While on Tribal land Indians are generally free of Local and State law, instead having Tribal and Federal laws. See, I was mocking the ridiculous argument that Americans would turn into suicide bombers if Indians demanded their own state...

see, i'm talking about moving half of population, not about some non-connected pieces of land.

[Gerryatrics]

Native Americans outnumber the Palestinian population by quite a large amount.

http://almashriq.hiof.no/general/900/910/912/maps/middle.east.gif
And judging by this map of the Middle East, there doesn't seem to be a lack of Arab owned countries very nearby where Palestinians could live peacefully. I fail to see how Israel's ownership of that sliver of land amidst that large chunk of the World equals an unjustified hostile takeover that justifies the purposeful targeting and bombing of civilians.

[velik_m]

Native Americans outnumber the Palestinian population by quite a large amount.

http://almashriq.hiof.no/general/900/910/912/maps/middle.east.gif
And judging by this map of the Middle East, there doesn't seem to be a lack of Arab owned countries very nearby where Palestinians could live peacefully. I fail to see how Israel's ownership of that sliver of land amidst that large chunk of the World equals an unjustified hostile takeover that justifies the purposeful targeting and bombing of civilians.

i don't see how this is relevant, but:
Palestinian population = 10 mio
native indian population? native indians in reservations?

look at the geographic map not political.

[Extra Stout]

Funny, I didn't realize it was 1948 and we were discussing whether to create a state of Israel.

I was under the impression there had been an Israeli state in place now for 58 years.

So what is the statute of limitations on the legitimacy of states then? Do the Serbs or Austrians still have a legitimate claim on Slovenia?

[velik_m]

Funny, I didn't realize it was 1948 and we were discussing whether to create a state of Israel.

I was under the impression there had been an Israeli state in place now for 58 years.

So what is the statute of limitations on the legitimacy of states then? Do the Serbs or Austrians still have a legitimate claim on Slovenia?

you are right, what is done is done, but it is important to know who started it and who started with terrorism.

As far as i know Habsburg dinasty is no longer in charge in Austria and we separated from Serbs with their (legal) consent. Neither Austrians or Serbs ever lived here (except some minorities).

[Gerryatrics]

i don't see how this is relevant, but:
Palestinian population = 10 mio
native indian population? native indians in reservations?

look at the geographic map not political.

About 35 million in the Americas. In just the US, somewhere upwards of 6 million of some American Indian ethnicity, 2.7 million "American Indian and Alaska Native alone" from the 2003 census, something like 1.8 million on reservations? Versus the about 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.

And I thought that was a geographic map.

Edit: I think the reservation numbers might be a bit high, I saw 1.8 million somewhere but now I can't find it again. American Indian numbers are hard to peg down, there is a 2004 census report that says there are 4.4 million American Indians. I don't know how much that helps.

[velik_m]

About 35 million in the Americas. In just the US, somewhere upwards of 6 million of some American Indian ethnicity, 2.7 million "American Indian and Alaska Native alone" from the 2003 census, something like 1.8 million on reservations? Versus the about 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank and Gaza.

And I thought that was a geographic map.

Edit: I think the reservation numbers might be a bit high, I saw 1.8 million somewhere but now I can't find it again. American Indian numbers are hard to peg down, there is a 2004 census report that says there are 4.4 million American Indians. I don't know how much that helps.

this is from 2003?
http://www.census.gov/Press-Release/www/releases/archives/facts_for_features/001492.html

i meant terrain map (rivers, mountains, DESERT).

[MannyIsGod]

Ok, wait, Indian Reservations are so far from the same thing as Israel that you can't even come close to comparing the 2. There is no sovriegnty on reservations nor are they on the origional tribal lands.

In fact, we took basically the worst land possible and gave it to them. So don't try to compare.

[Gerryatrics]

Reservations do have sovereignty.

[Darrin]

And judging by this map of the Middle East, there doesn't seem to be a lack of Arab owned countries very nearby where Palestinians could live peacefully. I fail to see how Israel's ownership of that sliver of land amidst that large chunk of the World equals an unjustified hostile takeover that justifies the purposeful targeting and bombing of civilians.

Okay. There's tons of land in the United States. How about we give up your house and relocate you 1,000 miles in any direction. We'll move your friends, too...1,000 miles in the other direction. Who needs to make arrangements for jobs.

Coulter wants to know why liberals parade out people who have first-hand experience of the issue on the table? To humanize the debate - to take it out of the abstract.

The United Nations demanded Palestine's complete inexistence because Adolf Hitler tried to commit genocide. Where were they going to go? Good question. This wasn't the answer.

[MannyIsGod]

Reservations do have sovereignty.You're out of your mind. They have a very limited form of sovereignty but still fall under the authority of the Federal government.

[Gerryatrics]

You're out of your mind. They have a very limited form of sovereignty but still fall under the authority of the Federal government.

There are limits, their sovereignty isn't absolute, but they're still independent, self-governed nations that retain all powers and rights not relinquished to the Federal Government by treaty. The United States acts as a trustee to American Indian tribes, not an overbearing authority.

[Jekka]

There are limits, their sovereignty isn't absolute, but they're still independent, self-governed nations that retain all powers and rights not relinquished to the Federal Government by treaty. The United States acts as a trustee to American Indian tribes, not an overbearing authority.
That's like telling a minor who lives in his parents' house that he's a free citizen. Sure, you have a certain amount of freedom, but only the amount that's given to you by your parents.

And when you say "all powers and rights not relinquished to the Federal Government by treaty", you do realize that you are talking about a lot of treaties signed under grossly unfair circumstances to the detriment of the Native American peoples (who in most cases were not given and could not afford legal counsel).

Try doing some research on some of the current issues for the Navajo and Hopi tribes - acquaint yourself with people like Roberta Blackgoat (pictured below) who had to fight the US for her right to stay on her people's sacred land after treaties had guaranteed that land was hers.

http://www.geocities.com/redroadcollective/BWRobertaBlackGoat.jpg

[Gerryatrics]

Okay. There's tons of land in the United States. How about we give up your house and relocate you 1,000 miles in any direction. We'll move your friends, too...1,000 miles in the other direction. Who needs to make arrangements for jobs.

If I lived among foreign people with a different culture who speak a different language, if there were daily shootings in my neighborhood, if my neighbors were firing rockets into nearby towns, if my kids were being brainwashed into strapping explosives to their bodies and blowing themselves up in buses or restaurants and I had a chance to move 1000 miles to be with people with the same culture that speak the same language... yeah, I think I could live with that. Who needs to make arrangements for jobs? Well, if unemployment was as high as 80% like it is in Palestinian run territories, I might just take that chance.


The United Nations demanded Palestine's complete inexistence because Adolf Hitler tried to commit genocide. Where were they going to go? Good question. This wasn't the answer.

When did Palestine exist? Israel only encompasses 20% of this "Palestine", I might be wrong but I believe Jordan exists. Before 1967 there were no "Palestinians", Arab leaders said that "Palestine" was part of the Province of Syria. The UN didn't demand "Palestine's" complete nonexistence, it never existed in the first place.

[Gerryatrics]

That's like telling a minor who lives in his parents' house that he's a free citizen. Sure, you have a certain amount of freedom, but only the amount that's given to you by your parents.

The Federal Government doesn't give Indian Nations rights, those rights, including sovereignty, are inherent.


And when you say "all powers and rights not relinquished to the Federal Government by treaty", you do realize that you are talking about a lot of treaties signed under grossly unfair circumstances to the detriment of the Native American peoples (who in most cases were not given and could not afford legal counsel).

I was referring to modern treaties and agreements, any rights unfairly seized by treaty were returned by The Indian Reorganization Act of 1934 and further clarified by the Native American Technical Corrections Act of 2003. New agreements between Tribal Nations and the US Government are being made all the time.


Try doing some research on some of the current issues for the Navajo and Hopi tribes - acquaint yourself with people like Roberta Blackgoat (pictured below) who had to fight the US for her right to stay on her people's sacred land after treaties had guaranteed that land was hers.

http://www.geocities.com/redroadcollective/BWRobertaBlackGoat.jpg

I am aware of the Navajo-Hopi Land Dispute. I'm also aware of Roberta Blackgoat. The problem was that "her people's sacred land" was in 1882 Hopi Reservation Land. The US government tried, and failed, to find an acceptable solution to the dispute, but the Dispute was and is between the Navajo and Hopi nations. Blackgoat wouldn't budge, and she was very brave for that, but to be fair she wasn't forcefully relocated by the government.

[velik_m]

If I lived among foreign people with a different culture who speak a different language, if there were daily shootings in my neighborhood, if my neighbors were firing rockets into nearby towns, if my kids were being brainwashed into strapping explosives to their bodies and blowing themselves up in buses or restaurants and I had a chance to move 1000 miles to be with people with the same culture that speak the same language... yeah, I think I could live with that. Who needs to make arrangements for jobs? Well, if unemployment was as high as 80% like it is in Palestinian run territories, I might just take that chance.



When did Palestine exist? Israel only encompasses 20% of this "Palestine", I might be wrong but I believe Jordan exists. Before 1967 there were no "Palestinians", Arab leaders said that "Palestine" was part of the Province of Syria. The UN didn't demand "Palestine's" complete nonexistence, it never existed in the first place.


there was no shooting in Palestine until Zionist came there and started with terrorism. I wonder why the Russians fought the Germans in ww2, all they had to do was move away in Sibiria, there is plenty of space there.

[Gerryatrics]

there was no shooting in Palestine until Zionist came there and started with terrorism. I wonder why the Russians fought the Germans in ww2, all they had to do was move away in Sibiria, there is plenty of space there.

So now Israelis are Indians and Nazis? And there was no shooting in Palestine because there was no Palestine, besides, are you forgetting about the Arab Riots of the 1920's or the 1936-1939 Arab Uprising?

[David Bowie]

Do you guys really think that Hamas want peace? If there's peace, and no Jews, there won't be anyone left to blame. Hamas would actually have to make sure that the Palistinian people are well fed, have jobs and a sound living. Especially since the people at the top have money, don't you think that its easier for Hamas to tell the people its Israel's fault, tell its people to go destroy Israel then to actually create an economy, a job market, etc. I mean, If there's no more Israel, and the Palestinian people are still living in poverty, Hamas will be blamed in that case, not the Jews.

[velik_m]

So now Israelis are Indians and Nazis? And there was no shooting in Palestine because there was no Palestine, besides, are you forgetting about the Arab Riots of the 1920's or the 1936-1939 Arab Uprising?

i gave the germany-russia example as a farly recent example of one nation seeking "lebensraum" on the expense of another, who has enough room. history is full of them. if you prefer: why did the Greeks fight the Persians instead of just moving out of Greece? or Texans fight the Mexicans? It's in a nature of man to defend what is his.

I find your willingness to be bullied around surprising and refreshing, however militia guarding the USA-Mexico border from illegal imigrants leads me to belief that not all americans are big pushovers, not careing about who has their land, as you.

[boutons_]

Arafat REFUSED peace with Israelis, because he wantd to rip peace from Israeli hearts. He was the impediment to peace, as well as running a totally Repug-style corrupt regime.

Some thought that after Arafat, negotiated peace would become possible. There's not even peace BETWEEN Palestinians, never mind with Israelis.

[gtownspur]

THis whole argument is completely stupid by folks like VElik and Manny.

For you're info,

Israel has an arab population around 39 percent, have representation in the Knesset,(the Israeli Parliament for all of you know it all dumbfucks like manny!), and have equal rights for arabs and any other nationality.

The arabs who fled Israel during its first war were blocked out of the state becuase of treason. Arabs who stayed to fight with the israeli's retained their homes and lived peacefully with the israelis.

Israel have shared their nation with arab folk for 58 years. It's these fucking pally's that cant keep their guns in their pockets, and have an uncanny knack for instigating usefull idiots like the UN, Europe, allong with idiots on this board against israel.


My advice to you fuckers is to read a book or check out the encyclopedia before reading any flourescent fliers you get handed at gay rallies, and Iraq war rallies.

[scott]

Back to a previous discussion, it is also worth noting that there are 4 countries who refuse, in one way or another, to be part of the Nuclear Non-Poliferation Treaty (NPT): India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea (who was part of it before they withdrew in 2003).

The NPT states that only the US, UK, China, Russia and France may possess nuclear weapons (as they were the only contries in possession prior to the treaty). But it states any sovereign nation may pursue nuclear technology for peaceful purposes.

Those 4 countries are in violation of international law... where is the outcry?

[MannyIsGod]

THis whole argument is completely stupid by folks like VElik and Manny.

For you're info,

Israel has an arab population around 39 percent, have representation in the Knesset,(the Israeli Parliament for all of you know it all dumbfucks like manny!), and have equal rights for arabs and any other nationality.

The arabs who fled Israel during its first war were blocked out of the state becuase of treason. Arabs who stayed to fight with the israeli's retained their homes and lived peacefully with the israelis.

Israel have shared their nation with arab folk for 58 years. It's these fucking pally's that cant keep their guns in their pockets, and have an uncanny knack for instigating usefull idiots like the UN, Europe, allong with idiots on this board against israel.


My advice to you fuckers is to read a book or check out the encyclopedia before reading any flourescent fliers you get handed at gay rallies, and Iraq war rallies.Oh now thats fucking rich. Even the United States State Dept knows thats not true. Theres a reason the rest of the world is pissed at what Israel does, but the fact is that the evangelical and jewish lobbies in this country are the reason we still support them. AIPAC is one ruthless fucking lobby.

But the point remains that support for either side is more trouble than its worth. Let them deal with each other. Its akin to locking 2 kids in a room and letting them work shit out. If they kill each other at this point, I coudln't care less. My only concern is in the amount of money that America spends on Israel and the American lives that come under fire directly as a result of support for a state that does nothing to repay the support.

Israel can't survive in its curent state without American support. They spend far too much money on security and their armed forces. So instead of being forced to comprimise, they can continue on knowing that they're American financers will foot the bill for keeping their nation afloat. It is complete bullshit.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=MannyIsGod] Theres a reason the rest of the world is pissed at what Israel does,...
And what is it that Israel does that supposedly pisses off the whole rest of the world? Exist?



Its akin to locking 2 kids in a room and letting them work shit out. If they kill each other at this point, I coudln't care less.
Except instead of fists they use lethal weapons so it really isn't akin to that at all. And the thought of their mutual annihilation doesn't faze you at all...made any pacts with the devil lately?

[MannyIsGod]

Joch, why in the hell should I care about two nations who can't learn to coexist? You think that situation is only present in the ancient land of Christians? You don't think that same situation is occuring all over Africa? Or in Sri Lanka? Or in India? Or China? Or in South America? Or even in Europe?

Israel cares nothing about human rights and has armed themselves with nuclear weapons. It sounds a lot like the axis of evil doesn't it? I understand you are not going to ever acknowledge that Israel has a horrible record on human rights violations and that there are legimate beefs the international community has with them. I know you see this as a one side is right situation, but you would figure that at some point you would adopt a less simplistic view of the world.

[Guru of Nothing]

Israel cares nothing about human rights

I did not know that.

[smeagol]

Joch, why in the hell should I care about two nations who can't learn to coexist? You think that situation is only present in the ancient land of Christians? You don't think that same situation is occuring all over Africa? Or in Sri Lanka? Or in India? Or China? Or in South America? Or even in Europe?.
Huh? Where is S. America do two countries behave like Israel and Palenstine?

[MannyIsGod]

I would say Columbia's Civil War pretty much qualfies as a place where people are continously killing each other.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=MannyIsGod]Joch, why in the hell should I care about two nations who can't learn to coexist? You think that situation is only present in the ancient land of Christians? You don't think that same situation is occuring all over Africa? Or in Sri Lanka? Or in India? Or China? Or in South America? Or even in Europe?
Sorry Manny but I honestly can't figure out the point you were trying to make here...unless it's that you don't care for the Jews, Palenstinians, Africans, Sri Lankan's, Indian's, Chinese and South Americans. Who's left?


Israel cares nothing about human rights and has armed themselves with nuclear weapons.
Another unfounded blanket generalization.

You stated that two nations can't learn to co-exist, could care less if they obliterate each other and mentioned a slew of other Countries and Continents that fall in the same category, yet "Israel" is the one that doesn't care about human rights.
Definite anti-semitic slant whether you admit it or not.





It sounds a lot like the axis of evil doesn't it?
No it doesn't.





I understand you are not going to ever acknowledge that Israel has a horrible record on human rights violations and that there are legimate beefs the international community has with them.
You've brought up their human rights record a few times but I've never been asked how I feel about either point so where does the "understanding" come from?






I know you see this as a one side is right situation, but you would figure that at some point you would adopt a less simplistic view of the world.
You know an awful lot for someone who's engrossed in giving his opinions about what somewhat thinks rather than asking pointed or direct questions that would elicit a personal opinion. Tarot cards or tea leaves?
Another close-minded poster so into his own opinions that he carries both sides of the discussion.

And btw, how does our discussion about a small portion of the Middle East equate to a simplistic view of the whole world?

[MannyIsGod]

My point is simple. 2 grous of people involved in a conflict is no reason for the United States to pick a side and invest so much. No other country involved in such a conflict is the recipient of such aid from the United States. AIPAC does wonders.

When it comes to the human rights violations, what source would you like me to provide? The US State Dept, the UN or countless independet internation agencies? Which one will you actually believe?

As for your simplistic view, that stems from your desire to blame one side when it is very obvious that there is blame to lay at the feet of both parties. And don't sit there and act as though I'm making some huge presumptions here. This is the first time the subject has been debated on this board and peoples opinions aren't exactly top secret material.

[MannyIsGod]

Its amazing to me how quickly the western world is to jump at a construtive disengagement policty torwards Africa, but woudln't think of the same thing for Israel. Amazing.

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, and at least you finally were able to admit you were calling me Anti-Semetic. First, let me actually define the word for you.

One who discriminates against or who is hostile toward or prejudiced against Jews.

I have nothing against Jews. I have a problem with Israel. Being against Israel's actions and saying they violate human rights isn't an antisemtic view. It is an anti Israeli view if anything.

For the record - because I undoubtly have to clear this up for you even though it should be self evident - I do think that the Palestinians are guilty of such violations themselves. Murder is the bigest violation possible.

I do not wish for either groups to be annihilated, I simply don't care if they do destroy each other at this point. Do not confuse my apathy with a wish for annihilation of Israel.

So yes, if you twist and contort the meaning of antisemtic to something it doesn't mean at all, then I qualify. Nice try bub.

[Extra Stout]

Israel has a modern industralized economy, is a valuable trade partner, and can offer the U.S. training in tactics like close urban warfare.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians can hit themselves in the head with knives.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Israel has a modern industralized economy, is a valuable trade partner, and can offer the U.S. training in tactics like close urban warfare.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians can hit themselves in the head with knives.
I see, so fuck the Palestinians... right?

[Extra Stout]

I see, so fuck the Palestinians... right?
I just explained why the Western world takes sides. Countries talk a good game about morality, but the crux of it is that Israel has $. it's the same reason everybody ignores China's human rights record.

I think I've figured out Israel's strategy:

1) Withdraw from much of the Palestinian territories
2) Unilaterally give Palestine its own state by default
3) Wait for the Palestinians as a state to launch an attack on Israel
4) Slaughter them

[smeagol]

I would say Columbia's Civil War pretty much qualfies as a place where people are continously killing each other.

It's Colombia. Columbia was a space shuttle and is a university in the upper west side of Manhattan.

And no, Colombia's sitiuation has nothing to do with what's going on between Israel and Palestine.

[MannyIsGod]

I know it has nothing to do with the situation. That was never my point. I was drawing a parrellellelelelel.

I misspelled that too, go ahead and agonize over it.

Are there not several rebel factions who are engaged in a civil war which has been very bloody and lasted for decades??? Did my misspelling change any of that?

[xrayzebra]

Manny, didn't shortly after Israel was made a state, some other Arab country come
in a take a bunch of Palestinian territory? I cant be bothered with googling it and
looking up all the stuff, but I am sure they did and nary a word is ever uttered about
it.

The fact I find strange is that Israel was created many years ago, under the
United Nations, which is all knowing. (Oh, I saw the post about "Western"
dominated UN, which doesn't count) and everyone now days cites as the final
word on everything. So why doesn't the folks over there "just get along".
Israel's are from that part of the world to begin with. So what is the big deal.

[Extra Stout]

In 1948, the British mandate of Palestine was partitioned into Israeli and Palestinian states. Immediately thereafter, the Arabs invaded the new state of Israel. The invasion was repelled, and Jordan annexed the West Bank.

[MannyIsGod]

Don't get me wrong, I dont side with the Arab states. I believe the whole situation is a clusterfuck made that way by every party involved. At some point you simply pull your hand out of the hornets nest because you're tired of getting stung. When does that point come?

[xrayzebra]

In 1948, the British mandate of Palestine was partitioned into Israeli and Palestinian states. Immediately thereafter, the Arabs invaded the new state of Israel. The invasion was repelled, and Jordan annexed the West Bank.


And still have this territory, right? How come no one puts any pressure on
them to return the land?



Manny, on some points I agree. Israel will always be supported by the
United States so long as the large Jewish population stays in the US.
Which will be forever, since this their home to. And they are big
contributors to both parties and carry much influence. They also have
great PR people who never let anyone forget what has happened in the
past. And witness what our government has done about transgressions
on our country by the bombing and killing of our personnel on the ship off
the coast of Israel. LBJ called off any help or aid to our own people.
All the spies that have been caught spying for Israel. Nothing has been
done. Whitewashed and played down in all respects.

[Extra Stout]

And still have this territory, right? How come no one puts any pressure on
them to return the land?
Israel occupied the West Bank in 1967, and I believe Jordan quit its claim around 1980.

[xrayzebra]

I wasn't aware that Jordan quite it claim. I thought they still occupied, controlled
that slice of land.

[jochhejaam]

Don't get me wrong, I dont side with the Arab states. I believe the whole situation is a clusterfuck made that way by every party involved. At some point you simply pull your hand out of the hornets nest because you're tired of getting stung. When does that point come?

When Arab Nations and Muslim factions cease being hell bent on the destruction of our friend Israel.
Would you abandon friends being attacked if you were capable of fending off the attackers?



America's Support for Israel Growing
February 13 2006

http://poll.gallup.com/content/default.aspx?ci=21406

PRINCETON, NJ -- Following the election of Hamas as the Palestinian Authority's ruling party, Americans have grown more pessimistic that peace will ever be achieved in the Middle East, and increasingly sympathetic toward the Israelis. American opinions of the Palestinians had been improving in recent years, but now are among the worst Gallup has ever measured. Most Americans do not believe the United States should give any financial assistance to the Palestinian Authority -- regardless of its stance toward Israel -- and most say the United States should conduct diplomatic relations with the Palestinians if they recognize Israel as a nation.


Increased Sympathy for the Israelis
Gallup's long-standing trend question on the Middle East, first measured in 1988, asks Americans whether their sympathies in the conflict lie more with the Israelis or the Palestinians. As has typically been the case, Americans are much more likely to sympathize with the Israelis (59%) than with the Palestinians (15%), with the remaining 26% not taking either side or not having an opinion. The current figures represent one of the most lopsided margins in favor of the Israelis ever recorded by Gallup. The only other times sympathy has been this high were during the first Persian Gulf War in February 1991 (when Iraq was launching Scud missiles into Israeli territory) and shortly before the start of the second war with Iraq, in February 2003 (58%). In 2004 and 2005, sympathy toward the Palestinians, though still low, was as high as it has been historically (18%).


Republicans (77%) are significantly more likely to sympathize with the Israelis than are Democrats (50%) or independents (50%). Gallup also finds that Americans who say they follow news about world affairs "very closely" are more likely to sympathize with the Israelis (66%) than Americans who follow foreign news only somewhat closely (59%) or who do not follow it closely (52%).

Gallup's World Affairs Poll also obtains basic favorable ratings of a variety of countries each year, including Israel and the Palestinian Authority. The new poll finds 68% of Americans saying they have a favorable opinion of Israel, including 21% who are "very favorable" toward it. Twenty-three percent view Israel unfavorably. Those numbers are essentially unchanged from last year, and are the most positive for Israel aside from a 79% favorable rating in February 1991 during the first Persian Gulf War.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=MannyIsGod]
When it comes to the human rights violations, what source would you like me to provide? The US State Dept, the UN or countless independet internation agencies? Which one will you actually believe?
Why do you keep bringing up their human rights violations? You won't find anything in my posts that addressed that issue one way or the other.
Knock yourself out and amuse yourself by posting whatever link you wish, you non-anti-semite you, but not on my behalf.
Whatever you come up will pale in comparison to the incessant, willful and premeditated terrorist attacks on Israeli women and children committed by the Palastiinians, Hamas and other Muslim factions.





As for your simplistic view, ...
You've toned that down quite a bit from your previous observation that my stance on the little piece of ground in the Middle East constituted a "simplistic view of the entire World".
Apology accepted.





And don't sit there and act as though I'm making some huge presumptions here. This is the first time the subject has been debated on this board and peoples opinions aren't exactly top secret material.
Thanks, I didn't know that Manny. :lol

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=MannyIsGod]Oh, and at least you finally were able to admit you were calling me Anti-Semetic. First, let me actually define the word for you.
:lmao



.


I do not wish for either groups to be annihilated, I simply don't care if they do destroy each other at this point. Do not confuse my apathy with a wish for annihilation of Israel.
The fact that you incessantly harp on Israel in threads with a common theme like this one rules out apathy. Nice try bub. :lol

[MannyIsGod]

Dude, is it so hard for you to get what is being said without taking it on your own course? I show apathy to the future of Israel, but not to American involvement in Israel. I'm sure you can understand the difference, correct?

The HR violations are relevant because it is a country that we support with a third of our entire budget for international aid. It is that simple. People cry out for the suspension of aid to the Palestians because they elected Hamas, but they allow Israel to keep recievicing aid when they have been found guilty of HR violations themselves.

And for the biggest myth of all, Israel needs our support to avoid annihilation nor more than we need Britians support to avoid annihilation from the Taliban. Israel has nuclear weapons and by far the most powerful military in the region. They successfully deafeated any local thread they have outside of Iran. They have the worlds best ABM system that (American) money can buy. They don't need our damn help to stave off annihilation. Its damn time we let them fend for themselves and find a solution to the situation.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=MannyIsGod]Dude, is it so hard for you to get what is being said without taking it on your own course?
I didn't realize I was supposed to acquiesce to the direction you'd like the discussion to go. It you like the easy road don't get involved in the debate.







The HR violations are relevant because it is a country that we support with a third of our entire budget for international aid. It is that simple. People cry out for the suspension of aid to the Palestians because they elected Hamas, but they allow Israel to keep recievicing aid when they have been found guilty of HR violations themselves.
As I stated before there are no human rights violations being committed by Israel that compare to purposeful targeting of innocent women and children. Not even close. Do you believe otherwise?







And for the biggest myth of all, Israel needs our support to avoid annihilation nor more than we need Britians support to avoid annihilation from the Taliban. Israel has nuclear weapons and by far the most powerful military in the region.
You're suggesting that we wash our hands of helping Israel thereby possibly putting them in the position of having to use nukes to defend itself against most of the Middle East? That's what they'll do as a last resort.
Bad idea Manny.

[MannyIsGod]

You're right Joch. Killing of innocents is less of a crime if its not intentional, but not by much. But the point stands, I do not support the use of internation aid provided by my tax dollars to ANY country which has as many violations of human rights as Israel does. I don't support it for the Palestians, and I don't support it for the Israelis. I think it is pretty damn hard to say that what Israel does when it kills children in the occupied terratories is the equal to suicide bombings, but thats not the point. We don't look at a crime then compare it to another to determine if it is wrong and should be punished. It damn well shoudn't be rewarded.

As for your next point, I hope you don't meant that Palestinian suicide bombing is gonig to lead to a nuclear conflict, do you? What possible scenario after a stopage of United States aid would lead to a nuclear conflict? I think Israel uses improper force all the time but even I don't think they're going to drop some nukes on Gaza.

I assume Israel would use nuclear weapons as a last resort in 2 basic situations. One, an invasion where all other measures have been exhausted and the second being a use of nuclear weapons on Israel by another state first. The first is laughable and the second is only slightly less laughable. In either case, no amount of aid from the United States is going to prevent those weapons from being used in either of those situations. so the point that our foriegn aid somehow prevents that is mind boggling at best.

[smeagol]

I know it has nothing to do with the situation. That was never my point. I was drawing a parrellellelelelel.

My point is your parrellellelelelel is no parallel at all.


I misspelled that too, go ahead and agonize over it.

I though you of all people, having a Latin background, would know Colombia is a country and Columbia is not.


Are there not several rebel factions who are engaged in a civil war which has been very bloody and lasted for decades??? Did my misspelling change any of that?
Yes, there has been a quasi-civil war for years but the level of violence has decreased significantly since Uribe took office. Again, the Colombia situation does not resemble the Israel-Palestine in any way.

[MannyIsGod]

Smeagol, I don't know what me being from Latin herritage has anything to do with my gross inablity to spell.

Secondly, civil strife is civil strife. I figured people dying resembled people dying but I guess people dying is different. Either way, I digress.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=MannyIsGod]You're right Joch. Killing of innocents is less of a crime if its not intentional, but not by much.
Okay but that's not what I said.
This is what I said;
1. The Palestinians, hamas and other fanatical Muslims target innocent, unarmed civilians, including women and children.
2. Israeli targets the perpetrators of these despicable, cowardly crimes against humanity.

That is the way I presented it in previous posts and you believe the two are almost the same?







We don't look at a crime then compare it to another to determine if it is wrong and should be punished. It damn well shoudn't be rewarded.
1. Targeting innocents is a crime of almost unimaginable proportions. <--Israels enemies.
2. Defending yourself against terrorism is not a crime. <--Israel
Can't make it any clearer than that Manny.









As for your next point, I hope you don't meant that Palestinian suicide bombing is gonig to lead to a nuclear conflict, do you? What possible scenario after a stopage of United States aid would lead to a nuclear conflict? I think Israel uses improper force all the time but even I don't think they're going to drop some nukes on Gaza.

I assume Israel would use nuclear weapons as a last resort in 2 basic situations. One, an invasion where all other measures have been exhausted and the second being a use of nuclear weapons on Israel by another state first. The first is laughable and the second is only slightly less laughable. In either case, no amount of aid from the United States is going to prevent those weapons from being used in either of those situations. so the point that our foriegn aid somehow prevents that is mind boggling at best.
I'll save discussion about this if and when we rescind our support for Israel. I don't see that happening anytime soon.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

Classic response.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I like online poker

[MannyIsGod]

One cannot defend the firing of rockets into apartment buildings that contain children and women simply as "defending oneself" when one has other avenues to reach the means.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that the actions of Israelis are completely justifieable regardless of their results? (Nevermind the effectiveness factor which is damn debateable as well)

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Manny you are arguing with an individual that had JOHNNY DEPP DRESSED AS A PIRATE
for his avatar for like an entire year

[MannyIsGod]

What I wonder is can Joch provide a sound argument for providing Israel a 3rd of our entire international aid budget given their economic and military sitution and their human rights record.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

He's a fucking neocon; therefore he is christian; therefore he sympathizes with jews moreso than muslims

it's that fucking simple

he's that fucking simple

all neocons are that fuckign simple

thats why i only troll the political forum these days

[jochhejaam]

One cannot defend the firing of rockets into apartment buildings that contain children and women simply as "defending oneself" when one has other avenues to reach the means.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but what you're saying is that the actions of Israelis are completely justifieable regardless of their results? (Nevermind the effectiveness factor which is damn debateable as well)
I'll say that if the perpetrators of terrorist acts try to hide behind women and children as a means of avoiding retaliation then the blood of those innocents are on them. No different than the safe house zawqiri was killed in.
They can play that hiding game forever while the Israeli's are picked off 5, 25, 50 at a time.

[MannyIsGod]

I'll say that if the perpetrators of terrorist acts try to hide behind women and children as a means of avoiding retaliation then the blood of those innocents are on them. No different than the safe house zawqiri was killed in.
They can play that hiding game forever while the Israeli's are picked off 5, 25, 50 at a time.Better the blood of the innocents that have nothing to do with the conflict and can't move than yours eh? Wow, now there is a Chrisitan viewpoint if I ever saw one.

Actually, thats a terrorists viewpoint if I ever saw one.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE]Better the blood of the innocents that have nothing to do with the conflict and can't move than yours eh? Wow, now there is a Chrisitan viewpoint if I ever saw one.
As far as I know you're on the outside looking in when it comes to Christianity. With that being the case you're qualifications for offering educated comments on the subject are so limited as to carry no weight.


Actually, thats a terrorists viewpoint if I ever saw one.
What specifically makes it a terrorist viewpoint Manny? (That means don't generalize)

[MannyIsGod]

:lol I love how I must be a practicing Christian in order to understand it now. I'm quite confident I have a much better grasp on Christanity than the VAST majority of people in church every weekend, but I digress.

It is a terroristic viewpoint because you allow your ends to justify your means when it comes to civillian lives. You convinently place the blame at the foot of your enemy instead of accepting responsiblity. That is a fundemental charictaristic of terrorists organizations.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=MannyIsGod]:lol I love how I must be a practicing Christian in order to understand it now. I'm quite confident I have a much better grasp on Christanity than the VAST majority of people in church every weekend, but I digress.
Let's see, Paul said that we (Christians) see through a glass dimly so that would put those that have chosen to be on the outside of Christianity? What would be a natural worsening progression after "seeing dimly"...I would say blind.








It is a terroristic viewpoint because you allow your ends to justify your means when it comes to civillian lives. You convinently place the blame at the foot of your enemy instead of accepting responsiblity. That is a fundemental charictaristic of terrorists organizations.Your definition of terrorism is grossly overstated, presumably so that you can label the "hated" Israels with that title. Nice stretch.

[Guru of Nothing]

What I wonder is can Joch provide a sound argument for providing Israel a 3rd of our entire international aid budget given their economic and military sitution and their human rights record.

Sound argument = money

EOS

[smeagol]

He's a fucking neocon; therefore he is christian; therefore he sympathizes with jews moreso than muslims

it's that fucking simple

he's that fucking simple

all neocons are that fuckign simple

thats why i only troll the political forum these days
What a stupid statement, dude.

[Extra Stout]

What a stupid statement, dude.
http://www.orlyowl.com/upload/files/Is_raely.jpg

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao

[SA210]

I love when people who say they are Christian also say they support war and killing, even when it means killing innocent women and children just to get to the enemy.

[MannyIsGod]

I love when people who say they are Christian also say they support war and killing, even when it means killing innocent women and children just to get to the enemy.I hope your Christian because if not you can't say that.

[mookie2001]

its peace through war dumbass






its like one is speaking twice, double

like speakdoublish or something
I just made that up

[Extra Stout]

like speakdoublish or something
I just made that up
your victoria dialect warrants more study

[jochhejaam]

An article/essay written by a Muslim and published in the Seattle Post a couple of years ago. Food for thought perhaps.

OUR PLACE IN THE WORLD: ROADMAP TO DARKNESS

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/148208_ourplace14.html
by Ruslan Tokhchukov (Seattle Post)

I am ashamed to be a Muslim ... again. I am originally from a Muslim minority in Russia and I was never quite as ashamed of the Soviet Union, which I left as an anti-Communist emigrant long ago, as I am of the Muslim world that makes even the USSR look free and civilized.

Total gender apartheid, treating women worse than animals, tyranny, oppression, intolerance of any kind of free expression and on and on. The Muslim world is the world of no good news. And now, there's yet another sickening, albeit not surprising, headline: "Jews rule the world by proxy, says Malay leader" (P-I, Oct. 17).

Mahathir Mohamad, the Malaysian prime minister, speaking before a gathering of the world's Islamic leaders, invoked the same old, tired explanation of the Muslims' many ills and ailments: the Jewish conspiracy.

Judging by the many historical references he included in his speech, Mohamad read some history but he proved to be absolutely incapable of learning history's lessons. He alluded to Islam's glorious past when the Muslim world thrived economically and culturally and shone in science, medicine and education while the West was backward and savage, wallowing in the misery, famines and plagues of the Dark Ages.

True, but the roles have since reversed. It is the Muslim world in the Dark Ages now, as one can judge by Mohamad's speech and by his audience's reaction to it. The leaders of 57 Muslim countries greeted this hate tirade with a standing ovation and praised it as "a good road map." How pathetic.

A road map where? Deeper into darkness? During the Seven Golden Centuries of Islam, the Muslim world was tolerant of the Jews and provided a haven for hundreds of thousands fleeing the savage persecution in Europe -- a fact Mohamad acknowledged. But now it is just the opposite.

Mohamad noted that the West surged ahead of the Muslims during the Industrial Revolution. But who led this revolution? The English and the Dutch, the only ones in Western Europe who were tolerant to their Jewish communities.

On the other end of the spectrum was the Inquisition nation of Spain, which was totally bypassed by the Industrial Age, just like the Arabs. It was the only country in Europe that had completely "cleansed" itself of Jews. This put the "purified" Spaniards on a 400-year-long downslide into ever-greater corruption, backwardness, poverty and misery. Finally, after a series of shattering military blows from Anglos, both British and American, the Spanish Empire collapsed like a rotten shack.

No, Mohamad, the Jews do not "take over" the most powerful countries in the world. They help those countries that welcome them to become powerful and successful.

One hundred years ago, 1 million Jews fled from Tsarist Russia to the United States after a wave of pogrom atrocities. Russia's loss was the United States' gain. The Russian Empire had violently collapsed in just a decade and the United States, which entered the 20th century as a third-rate power, emerged from it as the world's unchallenged superpower.

Let's ponder the fate of all once-powerful enemies of the Jewish people: the Pharaohs of Egypt, the Assyrians, the Babylonians, the Roman Empire, the Byzantine Empire, the Inquisitor Spain, the Russian Tsarist Empire, the Nazi Reich. Did any one of them not suffer a brutal end?

In the Christians' Bible, there's a part about God cursing those who curse the Jewish people and the entire world history seems to confirm it. Now, whether you are Christian or not, whether you are religious or not, whether you call it God's law or the law of history, you have to agree that not one nation that persecuted Jews had escaped very bad consequences. I don't think this law has an exception for the Arabs or any other Muslims.

This is what we the Umma (the world Muslim community) should pause to think about. Only then might we be able to find our way out of darkness. Otherwise, I am afraid, the Muslim world will be beyond redemption.

"For the sake of your word and according to your will, you have done this great thing and made it known to your servant. "How great you are, O Sovereign LORD! There is no one like you, and there is no God but you, as we have heard with our own ears. And who is like your people Israel-- the one nation on earth that God went out to redeem as a people for himself, and to make a name for himself, and to perform great and awesome wonders by driving out nations and their gods from before your people, whom you redeemed from Egypt? You have established your people Israel as your very own forever, and you, O LORD, have become their God." 2 Sam 7:21-24 (NIV)

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao x 34038409384093840938409384903854399599348694385390 849058309467928390-0924-05832-9598249682-582394752608456-984360983960853985904

[MannyIsGod]

Oh, to the ninety ninth power too.

[jochhejaam]

:lmao x 34038409384093840938409384903854399599348694385390 849058309467928390-0924-05832-9598249682-582394752608456-984360983960853985904
An expected response from a permanent fixture in the peanut gallery . :lol

[jochhejaam]

Just when you think peace is about to break out...
<sarcasm>

Israel 'will ensure Hamas govt toppled' if soldier slain
Jun 26 4:18 AM US/Eastern


Israel will work to ensure the Hamas-led government falls if a soldier kidnapped by Palestinian militants is not released alive, a high-ranking security official said.

"We will make sure that the Hamas government ceases to operate if the kidnapped soldier is not returned to us alive," the source told AFP on condition of anonymity.

Yuval Diskin, the head of Israel's Shin Beth homeland security agency, made the threat in talks with Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas late Sunday, the source said.

The Popular Resistance Committees, an armed Palestinian group, claimed Monday in a telephone call to AFP that it was holding the soldier, saying he was alive.

"We are holding the soldier. He is alive and in good health," said the representative of the group, speaking on condition of anonymity.

He gave no indications as to the whereabouts or the missing soldier, 20-year-old Gilad Shavit, who was abducted during a Palestinian attack on an army border post close to the Gaza Strip on Sunday that left two Israeli soldiers and two militants dead.

The Popular Resistance Committees, together with the armed wing of the govering Hamas movement and the previously unknown Army of Islam claimed joint responsibility for the attack.

Israel has vowed to avenge any harm done to the soldier who went missing after militants tunneled into Israel and launched the brazen attack, firing grenades and rockets at an army border post near southern Gaza.


It was the largest attack in the volatile border area since Israel pulled troops and settlers out of the impoverished coastal strip last summer, ending a 38-year presence.

Defence Minister Amir Peretz vowed Sunday a strong Israeli retaliation if the missing soldier were not released unharmed.

"We will take revenge against anyone who injures the soldier, including their leaders," Peretz told reporters.

The security cabinet later approved a series of reprisal operations against the Gaza Strip but agreed to put them off until the missing soldier had been brought home, the privately run Channel 10 television reported.

Shavit's bloodstained bulletproof was found not far from the scene of the attack and thousands of Israelis flocked to Jerusalem's Western Wall Sunday evening to pray for his safe return home.

In a joint statement, the militant groups said the dawn assault was revenge for the 22 civilians killed in an alleged Israeli shelling and botched air strikes since the start of June.


Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert blamed Palestinian president Mahmud Abbas and the Hamas-led Palestinian government for the attack.

Israel tanks, troops and Apache combat helicopters stormed into southern Gaza in response to search for the missing soldier and investigate the tunnel used by the attackers.

Public radio reported that further forces were massing on the border.

"This attack was carried out and spearheaded by senior members of the Hamas and authorized by the party's leadership," an army spokesman told AFP.

"The IDF (Israel Defence Force) holds the Palestinian Authority and democratically elected Hamas government responsible for the attack and the fate of the missing soldier."

The deputy prime minister of the Hamas government Nasseredine al-Shaer, demanded the immediate release of the soldier.

"I demand that this Israel soldier be freed immediately," Shaer told a news conference in the West Bank political capital of Ramallah.


But Shaer's call for the release of a soldier believed held by militants loyal to his own movement drew condemnation from Israeli ambassador to the United Nations Danny Gillerman.

"Hamas has once again proved that it is the worst sort of terrorist organization," Gillerman told AFP in Jerusalem.

Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni urged the moderate Palestinian Authority president to act swiftly to release the soldier, by force if necessary.

"This is an opportunity for Abu Mazen (Abbas) to prove how serious his intentions are. Israel expects him to act immediately to return the kidnapped soldier to Israel and he has the necessary military means to do so," she said.

Abbas, who was locked in talks with Hamas aimed at ending deadly political feuding between the Islamic militant group and his mainstream Fatah faction, condemned the attack.