Should Pop have taken Manu out for that play?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I know it's easy to answer this looking back at it.

But you know how Manu plays. You know you need to be super conservative. Should pop have thought about taking Manu out for that one play, then bringing him back for the next offensive possession?



(Especially considering his play in Sacramento)

[Trainwreck2100]

This, goes here

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43688

[Please_dont_ban_me]

This, goes here

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43688

http://gummibearheads.com/ign/retard_keyboard.gif

[Leetonidas]

FUCKING DROP IT ALREADY.

Thanks.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

FUCKING DROP IT ALREADY.

Thanks.


:elephant

[George Gervin's Afro]

We must move on..

[Please_dont_ban_me]

We must move on..

Just a question, man.

This isn't Dr. Phil, we don't need to find ways to cope with our loss. :elephant

[George Gervin's Afro]

Just a question, man.

This isn't Dr. Phil, we don't need to find ways to cope with our loss. :elephant


No Pop should not have taken Manu out.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

No Pop should not have taken Manu out.

Nice sig.

Did Artest really say that?

[George Gervin's Afro]

Nice sig.

Did Artest really say that?


Yes that was a direct quote however due to my occasional use of certain plant type materials I don't remember where I got it.

[Mixability]

2 series later and we still have these threads? :shootme

[nbascribe]

Hold on I'm trying to find the rewind button on this discussion.......for the bezillionth time...:lol

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Hold on I'm trying to find the rewind button on this discussion.......for the bezillionth time...:lol

Could you slomo the part with my boobs jiggilng? kthnx

[leemajors]

yeah you always wanna have your top/clutch players out in the waning seconds of the conference finals.

[nbascribe]

Could you slomo the part with my boobs jiggilng? kthnx

:rollin

At which moment....i think there's several....:lol

[Fabbs]

With a Dallas miss, and Dirk did almost miss, you would want the best FT shooters on the floor for the ensuing Mavs auto foul. Since Manu is one of the best Spurs clutch FT shooters, (ha him Fins and thats it?) that is another reason why i think he had to be on the floor.

That being said, and with all due respect to Bruce Bowens D, given Fabs previous D on Dirk both in Game 3 and at the end of reg season combined with Fabs FT% (75-80%?), I would have gone with Fabs on Dirk for that final play. I know that seems unlikely but I'm only talkin this one play for the forementioned reasons. Fabs haters watch tape of Fabs D on Dirk before spouting your usual bandwidth wasting blather. Bruce seemed to make the choice 100% to fan Dirk into the middle, (either that or Dirks obvious push off following his spin reversal to get to the middle) as opposed to focing/sending him towards the corner. I think Bruce was expecting keyhole help D 100%. Oh that's right no one to fan him into as we h-a-d to play small ball. :rolleyes

At any rate, i hear you Please_dont_ban_me, but with Pop reminding the whole team to NOT foul any shooter, Manu just blew it. timvp said in anther thread that he thought Manus court I.Q. is only average or above average and he needs to improve. I disagree, not with the improvement part :spin However I've thought Manus court I.Q. is off the charts excellent up until this mega brain fart. I was blown away/shocked/stunned he did such a goober on the cerebreal front with the series and most likely Championship in the balance.

[Solid D]

I didn't like my response about this subject, so I edited it. Please forgive.

[Fabbs]

I know it's easy to answer this looking back at it. But you know how Manu plays. You know you need to be super conservative. Should pop have thought about taking Manu out for that one play, then bringing him back for the next offensive possession?
(Especially considering his play in Sacramento)

Don't know when I've been so blue
Don't know what came over Manu.
Fouling Dirky-poo
And don't it make my brown eyes blue.

I'll be fine when this memory is gone.
I'll just smile all night long.
Say it isn't true
And don't it make my brown eyes blue

Tell me no secrets, tell me some lies
Give me some Laker Math*, more alibis.
Tell me you love me and Gnobs feeling betta
Say anything especially, goodbye to Bavetta

I didn't mean to treat you bad
Didn't know just what I had
But, honey, now I do
And don't it make my brown eyes
Don't it make my brown eyes
Don't it make my brown eyes blue*insider stuff

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Actually i think he's on to something. Coulda shoulda woulda, but it makes sense. Why leave Manu in for a defensive possession up three with 22 secs left?

He's never done anything in situations like that but fuck up

hmm...i bet PJ suggested this but pop ignored him

[pjjrfan]

Manu needs to be out on the floor for as long as his legs hold out. He is fearless. He made some mental mistakes but they were mistakes borne of aggression which if other players had brought that same aggression there might not have been a need for those last minute heroics.

[himat]

You never expect things to happen like that though so it's hard to know who to take out and who to keep in. Manu helped Duncan get them the lead back after being down 20 so since no one knew Manu would foul they had to keep him in.

[ZStomp]

I didn't even read any of these posts... who cares? It's over with.

Life goes on.

[SPARKY]

No.

[Axl Van Dam]

:wakeup Get over it already.

[Taking it to the Hole]

I was listening to George Gervin the other night with Stephen A Smith on "Quite Frankly", and he was commenting on how Manu plays. He said, "that players like Manu have only one gear and that is, HARD. They are great players for you to watch because they want to win so much, that they can either wind up winning the game for you or losing the game for you." I think that describes Manu the best way. I love Manu and I love that he never stops competing. If he had been healthier this year, who's to say what would have happened? I don't think anyone can fault him for playing his hardest. That call hurt, true, but I think it only makes you respect and acknowledge a player like him even more. Manu will always be a special player because of that.

[Spurologist]

The good thing about the US is there's always a choice. Psychiatric mental help is always an option. Please use it.

[Texas_Ranger]

That is histrory.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

You guys watch the Heat game?

The foul on Nowitzki at the end by Haslem? That brought back some bad memories. Thank god he didn't let Dirk get the shot off though.

[ALVAREZ6]

Why are people still talking about this????




It happened about a month ago, forget about it. Move on.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Why are people still talking about this????




It happened about a month ago, forget about it. Move on.

Good god.

Listen...people still talk about the Memorial day miracle. People still talk about Kerr's three's against Dallas. People still talk about Horry's 3 last year. Why can't I fucking discuss some Spurs "history" without it being bitched about?

Ya it can't be changed. Ya it's a month old. But so what? What else should we discuss, f'ing Rasho Nesterovic? No fanks.

[George Gervin's Afro]

Good god.

Listen...people still talk about the Memorial day miracle. People still talk about Kerr's three's against Dallas. People still talk about Horry's 3 last year. Why can't I fucking discuss some Spurs "history" without it being bitched about?

Ya it can't be changed. Ya it's a month old. But so what? What else should we discuss, f'ing Rasho Nesterovic? No fanks.


I think people do not want to discuss is because it is still an open wound.. this hurts because we let this opportunity slip away... the events you mentioned are all part of past playoff successes (sp?)

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I think people do not want to discuss is because it is still an open wound.. this hurts because we let this opportunity slip away... the events you mentioned are all part of past playoff successes (sp?)

This is true.

Then they should say "It hurts to talk about it, stop!" instead of "It's old news get the fuck over it already". :elephant

[Mixability]

Good god.

Listen...people still talk about the Memorial day miracle. People still talk about Kerr's three's against Dallas. People still talk about Horry's 3 last year. Why can't I fucking discuss some Spurs "history" without it being bitched about?

Ya it can't be changed. Ya it's a month old. But so what? What else should we discuss, f'ing Rasho Nesterovic? No fanks.

:shootme

Listen to yourself....

People still talk about those things because they're a high point in Spurs history. Only bitches go back and blame this or that for a loss. Hindsight is always 20/20.

What happens if Pop would've taken Manu out for that play and we STILL lost? This thread would've been titled "Why the F!!! did Pop bench Manu on that play?!?!?!".

Move on seriously, before you make a "Should Bowen have guarded Fisher on that play" thread.

[cheguevara]

This is the most retarded question ever. How the fuck would Pop have guessed to take Manu - the most clutch player in the team - out!????

This question is like asking howcome the sky is not green?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

:shootme

Listen to yourself....

People still talk about those things because they're a high point in Spurs history. Only bitches go back and blame this or that for a loss. Hindsight is always 20/20.

What happens if Pop would've taken Manu out for that play and we STILL lost? This thread would've been titled "Why the F!!! did Pop bench Manu on that play?!?!?!".

Move on seriously, before you make a "Should Bowen have guarded Fisher on that play" thread.

Listen to yourself.

Did I not say in my first post "I know it's easy to answer this looking back at it. But..."? This isn't Dr. Phil, it's ok to bring bad shit that happened in the past too. It's called constructive critcism.



Although I doubt Pop would ever read this, or care...but generally speaking. It's not a troll bashing, it's just saying "should we have done this?". If it bothers you, too bad.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

This is the most retarded question ever. How the fuck would Pop have guessed to take Manu - the most clutch player in the team - out!????

This question is like asking howcome the sky is not green?


:elephant



It's just a question.

And seeing as he made a similar late game boo boo in the Kings series, I don't think it's that "retarded" to just pose the question. Rather...it's "retarded" to overreact and get all sensitive over a simple question.

[Mixability]

Listen to yourself.

Did I not say in my first post "I know it's easy to answer this looking back at it. But..."? This isn't Dr. Phil, it's ok to bring bad shit that happened in the past too. It's called constructive critcism.



Although I doubt Pop would ever read this, or care...but generally speaking. It's not a troll bashing, it's just saying "should we have done this?". If it bothers you, too bad.

Hmmm, constructive criticism? So you say Pop should never have Manu in the final moments of a game, because of 1 mistake? We owe the 05 ring to Manu, he deserves to be trusted in the closing seconds. Pop made a decision to play him. Manu made a decision to go for the block. Season's over.

[Mixability]

:elephant



It's just a question.

And seeing as he made a similar late game boo boo in the Kings series, I don't think it's that "retarded" to just pose the question. Rather...it's "retarded" to overreact and get all sensitive over a simple question.


Wow, I guess I can assume you'll never be a b-ball coach. I guess you'll just have to stick to pedophiling the internets.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Wow, I guess I can assume you'll never be a b-ball coach. I guess you'll just have to stick to pedophiling the internets.

Because those are the only 2 options available, right?

Any good basketball coach questions his own decisions. That's how you improve. If you have a "well shit happens" attitude, how the fuck do you make the right decision next time around?

I'm not saying Pop SHOULD have taken him out, I'm asking should Pop have CONSIDERED taking him out. If that kind of a question justifies you calling me a pedofile, then fuck you.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Hmmm, constructive criticism? So you say Pop should never have Manu in the final moments of a game, because of 1 mistake? We owe the 05 ring to Manu, he deserves to be trusted in the closing seconds. Pop made a decision to play him. Manu made a decision to go for the block. Season's over.

I'm saying because of that one BIG mistake in the Kings series, and Manu's general style of play...Pop should have CONSIDERED taking Manu out for that one Defensive play where we DIDN'T need a big block or defensive play, and then bring him back on offense.

Key word: CONSIDER

[Mixability]

Because those are the only 2 options available, right?

Any good basketball coach questions his own decisions. That's how you improve. If you have a "well shit happens" attitude, how the fuck do you make the right decision next time around?

I'm not saying Pop SHOULD have taken him out, I'm asking should Pop have CONSIDERED taking him out. If that kind of a question justifies you calling me a pedofile, then fuck you.

I don't question Pops decision, neither should he. If he did, he'd be second guessing Manu whenever he's in the game from this point forward. I'm sure he told the guys to not foul. Manu thought he had a clean block and he went for it. So now you're saying he should be benched on key defensive plays for being aggressive?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I don't question Pops decision, neither should he. If he did, he'd be second guessing Manu whenever he's in the game from this point forward. I'm sure he told the guys to not foul. Manu thought he had a clean block and he went for it. So now you're saying he should be benched on key defensive plays for being aggressive?

Not for being aggressive, it's great he's agressive.

Buit when we're in a situation where we don't NEED him to be agressive, should Pop have considered taking him out for one play? That's all I'm saying. It's not just the fact he fouled Dirk, it's his tendencies to go for steals and get beat as well.

He does gamble on defense...and that was just a spot where we didn't need a big defensive play.

[Mixability]

Not for being aggressive, it's great he's agressive.

Buit when we're in a situation where we don't NEED him to be agressive, should Pop have considered taking him out for one play? That's all I'm saying. It's not just the fact he fouled Dirk, it's his tendencies to go for steals and get beat as well.

He does gamble on defense...and that was just a spot where we didn't need a big defensive play.

He made a mistake, do you realize that? I thought I read a quote of his that said something to the effect of "Pop told us not to foul, but I thought I had the block."

Geez, I can't believe I'm STILL even talking about this.

Let's move on:

Should Portland have CONSIDERED drafting Jordan instead of Bowie in 84? Discuss....

[Please_dont_ban_me]

He made a mistake, do you realize that? I thought I read a quote of his that said something to the effect of "Pop told us not to foul, but I thought I had the block."

Geez, I can't believe I'm STILL even talking about this.

Let's move on:

Should Portland have CONSIDERED drafting Jordan instead of Bowie in 84? Discuss....

"Still" discussing it? It's less than 2 weeks old. :lol

Yes he made a mistake. But that's his style of play. He's "aggressive" like you said, and like Gervin said "he can win you the game, or lose it for you". So when you're in a situation with the game in hand, you should consider taking him out for one play if it could cost you the game.


That, is my opinion. :king

[ChumpDumper]

So when you're in a situation with the game in hand, you should consider taking him out for one play if it could cost you the game.And when you're done considering it, you put him in for the play.

[Mixability]

"Still" discussing it? It's less than 2 weeks old. :lol

Yes he made a mistake. But that's his style of play. He's "aggressive" like you said, and like Gervin said "he can win you the game, or lose it for you". So when you're in a situation with the game in hand, you should consider taking him out for one play if it could cost you the game.


That, is my opinion. :king

2 weeks old, 2 series ago. We lost, fuck. Will you stop talking if I say, "Yes, you're completely right, Manu should never have been playing in the closing moments. What was Pop thinking!?!?!?"

If Pop would've CONSIDERED your option, we would've never even went into overtime.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

2 weeks old, 2 series ago. We lost, fuck. Will you stop talking if I say, "Yes, you're completely right, Manu should never have been playing in the closing moments. What was Pop thinking!?!?!?"

If Pop would've CONSIDERED your option, we would've never even went into overtime.

I'd stop if you simply stated "I would still keep him in the game, he's clutch" or "he's who got us here, we have no choice but to stick with him". Instead of "stop discussing this shit, it's 2 weeks old".


You're right, we wouldn't of gone to overtime. B/c we would have won. :D

[Please_dont_ban_me]

And when you're done considering it, you put him in for the play.

I probably would too.

Hindsight is always 20/20 I suppose. :elephant

[SenorSpur]

It was a flat-out stupid play. Like everyone else, I love Manu and will defend him anytime. However there is no defending Manu's action here. I still cannot believe he made such an incredibly, stupid decision after having been advised to the contrary.

The fact is Dirk is 7 ft tall. Manu's is not likely going to block his shot. The replay showed he didn't even get close. It was a good call by the officials and a dumb-ass play on Manu's part.

I don't care what anyone says. That ONE play cost the team a trip to the finals. That ONE play is now being defined as THE crowning moment in the Mavs championship drive.

[aaronstampler]

Actually i think he's on to something. Coulda shoulda woulda, but it makes sense. Why leave Manu in for a defensive possession up three with 22 secs left?

He's never done anything in situations like that but fuck up

hmm...i bet PJ suggested this but pop ignored him


Clearly you don't remember games 1 and 5 that he won with defense. What a surprise. You're such a hater. How'd your Pistons do this year?

[Tom_Foolery]

I think Manu should've used better judgement. Dirk right infront of the rim...what did Manu think he was going to do, block his shot?

[Fabbs]

Any good basketball coach questions his own decisions. That's how you improve. If you have a "well shit happens" attitude, how the fuck do you make the right decision next time around?

I'm not saying Pop SHOULD have taken him out, I'm asking should Pop have CONSIDERED taking him out. If that kind of a question justifies you calling me a pedofile, then fuck you.

Exactly. The number of dumb fuck responses, either twisting what you origianly wrote or bashing you for asking the question..... :lol

"Those who can't, criticize."

[Taking it to the Hole]

I think Manu should've used better judgement. Dirk right infront of the rim...what did Manu think he was going to do, block his shot?

You can't judge a player actions because he is trying to win a game. Manu thought at the most he could contest Dirk's shot. It just pisses me off that people are ragging on him. Let it go. You think that we would have had half a chance of winning if he didn't sink that three. Without him, we wouldn't have been in a position to win the game and for all the people who forget, the Spurs still had an overtime period to play and they didn't get it done. They had their chances, they just blew it. Tim must have missed like five or six tap ins when he should have grabbed the ball and dunked it. You can't fault Manu, or Tim, or Tony, or even Pop. They lost as a team, not as one individual.

[Cherry]

What happens if Pop would've taken Manu out for that play and we STILL lost? This thread would've been titled "Why the F!!! did Pop bench Manu on that play?!?!?!".

Move on seriously, before you make a "Should Bowen have guarded Fisher on that play" thread.

True. This thread is boring.


People who are mad at this point, please call a therapist!.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Exactly. The number of dumb fuck responses, either twisting what you origianly wrote or bashing you for asking the question..... :lol

"Those who can't, criticize."

It's quite lovely.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

You can't judge a player actions because he is trying to win a game. Manu thought at the most he could contest Dirk's shot. It just pisses me off that people are ragging on him. Let it go. You think that we would have had half a chance of winning if he didn't sink that three. Without him, we wouldn't have been in a position to win the game and for all the people who forget, the Spurs still had an overtime period to play and they didn't get it done. They had their chances, they just blew it. Tim must have missed like five or six tap ins when he should have grabbed the ball and dunked it. You can't fault Manu, or Tim, or Tony, or even Pop. They lost as a team, not as one individual.

"Don't blame Manu"...

But it's ok to say 'Tim should have dunked it'? Wtf kind of logic is that. For starters Tim is hurt. You think he wouldn't dunk it if he could? The guy was on a table for 2 hours after the game (so I hear) taking treatment for exaustion.




Sidenote: God forbid it was Tony Parker who committed that foul. This city would be ripping him apart.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

[SIZE=4]People who are mad at this point, please call a therapist!.

Agreed.

What's funny is, I just asked a logical question...I'm not even mad. But people who are replying to defend Manu are the ones getting mad. :elephant Did you have a specific therapist in mind for them?

[cecil collins]

I can't believe Dirk made that layin even with Manu raking across his arm. That's Manu, and I'll take the good with the bad. Discussions like this don't piss me off, but second guessing does get old sometimes.

[Mavs_man_41]

Hmmm....why would popovich bench manu, one of the 3 top players on the team, especially when he had no idead manu was going to make that mistake? It was a dumb move but he probably wouldn't have made that mistake any other day of the week.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Should Larry have taken Rasheed out for that other play?

Point is, shit happens. Players make mistakes. If it wasn't for Sheed's mistake, maybe the Spurs win one less championship. If it wasn't for Manu's mistake, maybe the Spurs win one more championship...

[Cherry]

Agreed.

What's funny is, I just asked a logical question...I'm not even mad. But people who are replying to defend Manu are the ones getting mad. :elephant Did you have a specific therapist in mind for them?

I was not talking about you, really :lol
My therapy is not to read post of people who are still angry for this anymore. We will see what happen next season.

Relax. :princess

[cheguevara]

Should Kori have banned pleasedon'tbanme before this post was made? discuss...

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I was not talking about you, really :lol
My therapy is not to read post of people who are still angry for this anymore. We will see what happen next season.

Relax. :princess

I know it wasn't for me, sweety.

Twas' a joke.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Should Kori have banned pleasedon'tbanme before this post was made? discuss...

I would go on a hunger-strike.

[strangeweather]

Agreed.

What's funny is, I just asked a logical question...I'm not even mad. But people who are replying to defend Manu are the ones getting mad. :elephant Did you have a specific therapist in mind for them?
A logical answer, then: if you have someone who habitually makes stupid mistakes, I think the only answer is to take them out. Manu has certainly made some, but I don't think I would say that he's the kind of player I would call a liability on plays like that in general. He just screwed up that time. It happens.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

A logical answer, then: if you have someone who habitually makes stupid mistakes, I think the only answer is to take them out. Manu has certainly made some, but I don't think I would say that he's the kind of player I would call a liability on plays like that in general. He just screwed up that time. It happens.

Well, it wasn't just that one time...he did in the Kings series too.

The difference is that play was on offense, this was on defense where you're up by 3 points. You can afford to take him out on defense with a lead, but you can't afford to take manu out on offense when you need some production.

[strangeweather]

Well, it wasn't just that one time...he did in the Kings series too.

The difference is that play was on offense, this was on defense where you're up by 3 points. You can afford to take him out on defense with a lead, but you can't afford to take manu out on offense when you need some production.
Granted, it's not the only time it's happened. But it's not like he's one of those guys that makes you wince when he goes out on the court.

I think if you put him in that same situation 10 times, and 6 out of 10 he doesn't do anything different from anyone else, 1 out of 10 he makes a crushing mistake (as he did), and 3 times out of 10 he does something unexpected and brilliant that ices the game, like stripping the ball from Dirk for the breakaway dunk.

You could argue that the game was iced anyway without a brilliant play, so there's no reason for Manu to still be in there. But there was still some time left, so I'm not sure about that.

[Obstructed_View]

All I know is that if Pop were Jason McElwain's coach, he would have pulled him for shooting a three while they were up by 20.

[CaptainLate]

It's a shame but Manu is going to be history in just a few yrs because of the way he plays and the fact he won't mend himself in the offseason (playing more ball for Argentina). Hopefully, Spurs will win 1-2 more titles by the time Manu is forced to retire in his early 30's and this memory will be just that.

[beirmeistr]

It's a shame but Manu is going to be history in just a few yrs because of the way he plays and the fact he won't mend himself in the offseason (playing more ball for Argentina). Hopefully, Spurs will win 1-2 more titles by the time Manu is forced to retire in his early 30's and this memory will be just that.
There is a lot of truth in what you say. I wonder if Heat fans have the same kind of morbid thoughts about Wade---he also goes all out on just about every play and sacrifices his body every game. I'm not sure if playing year round is good or bad for Manu---it's bad in that his body doesn't have a chance to mend, but it's good in that he is more in rhythm and he needs to be in rhytm to be consistent.