Available: Paul Pierce

[SPARKY]

http://www.nba.com/media/celtics/pierce_140_050630.jpghttp://www.nba.com/celtics/images/celtics_logo.gif

Paul Pierce | 34
Position: F-G
Born: Oct 13, 1977
Height: 6-6 / 1,98
Weight: 230 lbs. / 104,3 kg.
College : Kansas

Info (http://www.nba.com/playerfile/paul_pierce/index.html)

The Spurs would have to adjust their lineup if they managed to acquire Pierce. If the league is going to make life easier for perimeter scorers, well, bringing this guy in wouldn't be that bad. He does have a substantial contract, with him slated to pull down $15.1 mil in 2006-07 and $16.4 mil in 2007-08, but that's all that's left. The Spurs have a collection of tradeable assets which they could put together to make a deal work under the CBA. If the Celtics are ready to blow things up, a combination of cap relief plus young prospects might not look so bad.

[Brutalis]

eh. I don't see PP as a good choice for us.

[BruceBowenFan]

i dont either

[Louie Vega]

Great player but he wouldn't fit well with the Spurs.

[Mr. Body]

No.

[Big P]

Who do we have that Boston would take & the salaries match up? Ainge just said on Friday that he was getting ready to get together with Pierce & his agent to discuss an extension. He might be available, but unless Boston is getting a superstar back, I dont see them trading him.

[SPARKY]

You have an aging perimeter rotation. Barry's already gone in most minds. Finley? Maybe another worthwhile year. Bowen's getting up there. Ginobili is more of a 28 to 30 minute a night guy.

[Quadzilla99]

It would take Tony and Manu to get him. Maybe either Tony or Manu plus a boatload of draft picks also. Paul pierce did play the best basketball of his career the second half of last season and was utterly brilliant, but he is not worth that.

[Nikos]

Is their even .0000001% chance of Pierce being a Spur? Why would the Celtics even entertain the notion of trading Pierce for anything the Spurs would be willing to package? Parker and Ginobili together they might consider, but the Spurs would not consider that.

Other than that? Is it even remotely feasible?

[exstatic]

If they're blowing it up, they're not going to want Nazr, so you have to start thinking in terms of salary match. We'd have to dump damn near that $15M, so you'd be talking Williams, Barry, Big Shot and Oberto. That would be 3 expiring deals (Horry player option and Oberto team option) and one with two years left. It works after 21 August when Williams can be moved again.

[exstatic]

It would take Tony and Manu to get him. Maybe either Tony or Manu plus a boatload of draft picks. Paul pierce did play the best basketball of his career the second half of last season and was utterly brilliant, but he is not worth that.
Refresh me on what Toronto got for VC again?

[SPARKY]

Throw in Beno and Scola. Plus a future first, perhaps. The Spurs can put together a package of cap relief + young prospects. If a team is looking to blow it up and start all over, the Spurs do have some nice pieces to that end.

[Mr. Body]

Is their even .0000001% chance of Pierce being a Spur? Why would the Celtics even entertain the notion of trading Pierce for anything the Spurs would be willing to package? Parker and Ginobili together they might consider, but the Spurs would not consider that.

Other than that? Is it even remotely feasible?

No. It's not feasible. Just more off-season unicorn wishes.

[stewie]

If they're blowing it up, they're not going to want Nazr, so you have to start thinking in terms of salary match. We'd have to dump damn near that $15M, so you'd be talking Williams, Barry, Big Shot and Oberto. That would be 3 expiring deals (Horry player option and Oberto team option) and one with two years left. It works after 21 August when Williams can be moved again.


:lmao :lmao :lmao You know this post was rather entertaining. Sure, send Boston some scrubs for a superstar like Pierce. That has a good chance of even getting a second look. :drunk

[Quadzilla99]

Refresh me on what Toronto got for VC again?

VC was averaging 15 points a game and quit playing (look it up). Not coming off the best stretch of basketball of his career. Besides that was maybe the worst trade in NBA history, Zo opted out and they ended up with Aaron Williams for VC. Keep waiting for that kind of trade to happen again.

[whottt]

Um, if I may say something here to those that don't want Paul Pierce..........ARE YA"LL FUCKING INSANE!?!?!?!?

If the Spurs can get Paul Pierce without giving up Tim, Manu, Tony...that'd be insane to pass that up. No matter what else they have to give up. Paul Pierce is a straight up fucking stud. Don't want Paul Pierce WTF is wrong with people...you'd have to be on crack to turn that deal down.

[exstatic]

Uh, There have been rumblings out of Bsoton wanting to move Pierce for over a year now.

[Mr. Body]

It's not so much people don't want Paul Pierce, it's that we all tend to understand basketball and basketball front offices and understand that they'd never give him up for Nazr Mohammed and a smattering of other serviceable players we may have lying around.

[SPARKY]

VC was averaging 15 points a game and quit playing (look it up). Not coming off the best stretch of basketball of his career. Besides that was maybe the worst trade in NBA history, Zo opted out and they ended up with Aaron Williams for VC. Keep waiting for that kind of trade to happen again.

Yes, bad trades happen. Also, trades happen for reasons other than picking up the best players in return. It's certainly not unheard of for a team to look to dump a great player in return for lesser value and value which allows them to retool. Between Barry, Williams, Horry, and Oberto the Spurs have guys on contracts which will allow them to pare down their payroll substantially in the near term. Guys like Udrih and Scola offer a team the ability to add players who can contribute on the cheap. What ultimately matters is the Spurs' willingness to take back a substantial long-term contract. With the Rose and Nesterovic trades they've rid themselves of some rather large long-term commitments, something on the order of $40 million from 2006-09 (assuming Mohammed walks).

[exstatic]

:lmao :lmao :lmao You know this post was rather entertaining. Sure, send Boston some scrubs for a superstar like Pierce. That has a good chance of even getting a second look. :drunk
Read the underlined passage.

IF THEY ARE FUCKING BLOWING UP THE TEAM, there aren't going to be too many better packages of ending contracts than that. Teams with young prospects are going to be scared off by the mere two years left on Pierce's deal, but the Spurs probably WANT that short a deal coming in.

[whottt]

Dude only puts down 26 6 and 5 per game @ 47 and 35% from the field, as the only threat on his team...he even throws in a steal and a half per game. He can do it outside, he can do it inside, he can post up, he can slash...

WTF is not to want?

And on top off all that he is fucking clutch.

Guy isn't a headcase either...

Why wouldn't you want Paul Pierce? That's my question to those of you that don't.

I want to hear this.


Because he got stabbed? What?

[Mr. Body]

This isn't NBA Live 2007 where you add superstars wily-nily for scrubs. Why don't we get Kevin Garnett, too? He's on the trading block!

Give the Spurs FO a call. Tell them we want Paul Pierce and they should give 100% effort to make it happen. Watch while our team falls apart while they don't make any of the reasonable efforts to contribute to the team.

[SPARKY]

Did the Lakers get back equal value in '04 when they dealt Shaq? I guess that was on NBA Live so it doesn't count.

[Nesterofish]

Kobe Bryant told Danny Ainge he has to trade Paul Pierce or Kobe won't resign with the Celtics.

[Nesterofish]

SPARKY gets a big woody thinking about player transactions during the offseason.

[ChumpDumper]

The Celtics really can't "blow it up" very easily. Even if they dump Pierce for a 2nd rounder, they still have $20-25 million worth of white guy each year through '09.

[whottt]

The Spurs have a defacto starting lineup of talent they can trade to a team....

Scola - Widely considered to be the best PF in Europe
Javtokas - Top defensive C in Europe
Beno - talented if inconsistent young PG with championship experience.
Mahnimi - Still growing 6'11 guy with hustle

Plus they've got expiring contracts of guys.

It's not like the Spurs don't have talent to give up...

IF the Celts are blowing it up they aren't going to want some POS over-rated star from another team....they'd stick with Pierce if that is what they wanted.


Danny Ainge can be a prick too, oldschool style...he might do something like that just to fuck the Mavericks over..If the deal helps him he won't care if SA gets a couple of titles out of it...especially it screws over someone he doesn't like.

[SPARKY]

Other things give SPARKY a woody. But I guess we shouldn't discuss trades in the offseason and stick to thinking about what gives men 'woodies'...

[exstatic]

Trades go down every year that don't make player for player sense. Either a player wants out or a team wants to be shed of salary. That's why ending contracts are a commodity, and I doubt many teams have enough to pull this deal.

If Boston is blowing it up, that's all they're going to want. If they're not blowing it up, then they won't trade Pierce.

[Mr. Body]

Did the Lakers get back equal value in '04 when they dealt Shaq? I guess that was on NBA Live so it doesn't count.

MUST-TRADE scenario. They got what they could for him, didn't they?

If Boston doesn't get a young budding star or some good established vets near their prime for Pierce, there's rioting on the Common. If they trade Pierce they're looking at a Ray Allen or a Michael Redd. They could pull an Al Harrington.

Does Nazr Mohammed fit that bill?

All this talk is patently ridiculous. Absolutely retarded.

[whottt]

The one thing we probably won't do is include Robert Horry in the trade...

Don't think Ainge wants Horry, call it a hunch, and the feeling is probably mutual.

[SPARKY]

The Spurs have a defacto starting lineup of talent they can trade to a team....

Scola - Widely considered to be the best PF in Europe
Javtokas - Top defensive C in Europe
Beno - talented if inconsistent young PG with championship experience.
Mahnimi - Still growing 6'11 guy with hustle

Plus they've got expiring contracts of guys.

It's not like the Spurs don't have talent to give up...

IF the Celts are blowing it up they aren't going to want some POS over-rated star from another team....they'd stick with Pierce if that is what they wanted.


Danny Ainge can be a prick too, oldschool style...he might do something like that just to fuck the Mavericks over..If the deal helps him he won't care if SA gets a couple of titles out of it...especially it screws over someone he doesn't like.

The Spurs' prospects do carry the imprimatur of the player-personnel staff's past successes. Of course, there is the little matter of why the Spurs would be giving up their choicest prospects.

[whottt]

The Spurs' prospects do carry the imprimatur of the player-personnel staff's past successes. Of course, there is the little matter of why the Spurs would be giving up their choicest prospects.

Because Paul Pierce is a fucking stud...that's why.

[SPARKY]

MUST-TRADE scenario. They got what they could for him, didn't they?

If Boston doesn't get a young budding star or some good established vets near their prime for Pierce, there's rioting on the Common. If they trade Pierce they're looking at a Ray Allen or a Michael Redd. They could pull an Al Harrington.

Does Nazr Mohammed fit that bill?

All this talk is patently ridiculous. Absolutely retarded.

And yet, you're in the middle of it. Anyways, yes, must trade. If a situation isn't working perhaps it's best to blow it up and get some cap relief.

[Mr. Body]

And yet, you're in the middle of it. Anyways, yes, must trade. If a situation isn't working perhaps it's best to blow it up and get some cap relief.

Ok, I'll concede. If the Spurs can make it work, do it. Bring Manu off the bench. I just have to think, in a league of 28 other teams, the Celtics have to find a more attractive deal somewhere.

[SequSpur]

The Spurs need to trade Ginobili, Scola, Javtokas, Beno and Bonner for Jermaine Oneal.

That would seal the deal for the next 5 years.

[whottt]

they still have $20-25 million worth of white guy each year through '09.

Need I point out that Danny Ainge is the GM...

#1. He likes white guys(and so does Auerbach), he's why they have 25 million worth.

#2. He's probably tired of tude and wants team player types that won't make waves. The Spurs have a track record of getting those kinds of players.

[Nesterofish]

If the Lakers are looking to blow it up and start over around Kobe, maybe the Spurs could get Lamar Odom.

If David Stern and Peter Holt had a gentleman's agreement to tank the 2006 playoffs in order to get Dwyane Wade anointed the next Jordan, maybe Stern pays Holt back by getting Andrei kirilenko traded to SA for scrubs.

If I can impact reality by typing in my dumbshit wishful thinking onto a message board, maybe the Spurs can get Paul Pierce.

[SequSpur]

Lamar Odom is the spokes person for Qtip.

No way.

[Mr. Body]

Need I point out that Danny Ainge is the GM...

#1. He likes white guys(and so does Auerbach), he's why they have 25 million worth.

It's not really Ainge. It's Boston. With Cincinnati, perhaps the most overtly racist city in the north.

[Quadzilla99]

Anybody who thinks we're getting PP w/o giving up at least Tim, Tony, or Manu should be permanently banned from this site for idiocy.

[whottt]

The Spurs can trade cap space and young talent...

Why the Celtics wants to just trade out Pierce for someone else?

They aren't getting anyone established, that's better than he is, for him.

The Spurs deal would be better than the #1 pick in this draft...

[whottt]

Ok naysayers....who will the Celtics trade him for...tell us.

Chris Webber? AI?

Do you really think that's what they want to do?

Garnett? Garnett is in the same boat as Pierce...stud player but can't do it without help.

They're not getting Bosh, or Howard or anything like that for him either...

So who are they trading with? Who can they get that's better than what the Spurs can offer?

[SPARKY]

Ok, I'll concede. If the Spurs can make it work, do it. Bring Manu off the bench. I just have to think, in a league of 28 other teams, the Celtics have to find a more attractive deal somewhere.

I'm not saying it's a sure thing. But we've seen deals go down that suck from a basketball perspective in recent times. The Spurs have a variety of soon to be ending contracts plus prospects. Scola would be a nice pickup for many a team. Udrih, for all of his struggles in SA, is still a solid point guard talent with a knack for scoring and distributing the ball. In the right system he'd be productive and there are always teams that wouldn't mind that. Mahinmi and Sanikidze are unknowns but bear the mark of the Spurs' braintrust. All I really want is to see the Spurs get what they need with their tradeable assets. But man, you never know. NBA history is littered with bad deals and that means that someone made out like bandits.

[ChumpDumper]

Need I point out that Danny Ainge is the GM...

#1. He likes white guys(and so does Auerbach), he's why they have 25 million worth.

#2. He's probably tired of tude and wants team player types that won't make waves. The Spurs have a track record of getting those kinds of players.I know why Boston likes whitey. I'm talking about the difficulty of blowing up the team when those deals are still there.

[Mr. Body]

You have to understand Boston fans are some of the most cuckoo fans in the world. They think they're steps away from the championship. They think Al Jefferson is the next Dwight Howard and Tony Allen is just as fast as Parker. They think Pierce is awesome and with the right coach, instead of Doc, they'd be at least EC champs.

Seriously now, their FO knows that if they get Nazr Mohammed and scrubs for their franchise guy, it's pitchforks and torches. You don't tear up a championship squad like that.

[whottt]

I am surprised that so many think the Spurs are devoid of tradeabgle commodoties outside of Tony, Manu, Tim. They aren't...they've got tradeable assets...

The main reason teams don't want to deal with us is because they don't want to make us better...Ainge isn't worried about that.

[whottt]

You have to understand Boston fans are some of the most cuckoo fans in the world. They think they're steps away from the championship. They think Al Jefferson is the next Dwight Howard and Tony Allen is just as fast as Parker. They think Pierce is awesome and with the right coach, instead of Doc, they'd be at least EC champs.

Seriously now, their FO knows that if they get Nazr Mohammed and scrubs for their franchise guy, it's pitchforks and torches. You don't tear up a championship squad like that.

You didn't answer the question...

He's already on the block...tell me what deal they are going to get for Pierce that clears cap room and restocks them with young talent at nearly every position...


I'm not talking Nazr here...

I'm talling Scola, Javtokas, Beno, Mahnimi...Barry.

Whose going to offer them better?


You think they'll do it for AI? Ainge doesn't think that way.

[Mr. Body]

You didn't answer the question...

He's already on the block...tell me what deal they are going to get for Pierce that clears cap room and restocks them with young talent at nearly every position...

Jesus, I don't have time to go through and devise trades.

[exstatic]

Hey they can have Manu. I don't GAF. He's older than Pierce (by months), and he's more or less white, a selling point in Beantown. I just don't think they want ANYONE with 4 years left on their deal. That's what is involved in blowing up a team.

Pierce is a fucking stud, and even not being the man, could EASILY put up 20p/6r/5a in a secondary role in the Spurs system, and be there every night.

Parker/Pierce would be the prizefighter backcourt: the Jab and the Haymaker.

[Quadzilla99]

Boston is going to get at least 1 very good player plus a very high pick or a boatload of draft picks or two very good players for him. Paul played the best ball of his career the second half of last season when his team was out of it so he definitely aint forcing anyone's hand. Plus his stock is at an all time high because of how he played. VC forced that trade by completely and utterly quitting on his team. Besides even with that it was the worst trade I have ever heard of. Waiting for that to happen again is like finding $200 on the ground somewhere and showing up every day waiting for $200 to appear again.

[whottt]

I haven't thought about that.


I know...

[Mr. Body]

There had been discussion of Nene plus some from Denver. I'd take him over anybody on the Spurs' roster.

You could definitely pull Rashard Lewis plus a Nick Collison, at least, from Seattle.

You could get a thousand young potential stars from Portland.

You could get Shawn Marion, maybe.

Andre Kirilinko, I'm sure.

Chicago would probably send Deng, Nocioni, and/or a package of some good young players. Maybe even Deng + Gordon.

ALL OF THESE ARE MUCH BETTER THAN THE EXPIRING CONTRACTS/SCRUBS GIFT BASKET THE SPURS COULD SEND.

[Mr. Body]

I know...

DId you just pull a quote out of context? What the hell?

[whottt]

Boston is going to get at least 1 very good player plus a very high pick or a boatload of draft picks or two very good players for him. Paul played the best ball of his career the second half of last season when his team was out of it by comparison so he definitely aint forcing anyone's hand. Plus his stock is at an all time high because of how he played. VC forced that trade by completely and utterly quitting on his team. Besides even with that it was the worst trade I have ever heard of. Waiting for that to happen again is like finding $200 on the ground somewhere and showing up every day waiting for $200 to appear again.


Who? Who do they get? Who?

Which team is this?


What team has 1 very good player, a high pick or a boatload of draft picks?


Furthermore...this draft sucks, and if they don't get the pick this year, Pierce himself is going to make sure it's not a high pick next year.

[exstatic]

Boston is going to get at least 1 very good player plus a very high pick or a boatload of draft picks or two very good players for him. Paul played the best ball of his career the second half of last season when his team was out of it so he definitely aint forcing anyone's hand. Plus his stock is at an all time high because of how he played. VC forced that trade by completely and utterly quitting on his team. Besides even with that it was the worst trade I have ever heard of. Waiting for that to happen again is like finding $200 on the ground somewhere and showing up every day waiting for $200 to appear again.
If they get a "Very good player", chances are he's going to be very well paid, defeating the "blow up the team" aspect of trading Pierce. Why not just keep Pierce? I think the entire supposition of this thread is that Boston is starting over. If they're not, then they're not trading Pierce. If they are, then they probably won't be wanting any Star contracts or long contracts in return.

[Mr. Body]

Who's saying Boston is blowing up the team?

[SPARKY]

Oh well, I should've first posited Rashard Lewis as a potential target. Seattle ownership is bitching about $ and Lewis isn't their franchise. They'd be a prime candidate for cap relief plus getting back younger (& cheap) prospects.

[ducks]

boston hates spurs because they got tim duncan

so why talk about this

[exstatic]

Who's saying Boston is blowing up the team?
It's been the rumor for over a year that they would if they didn't make the playoffs. That's kind of the premise of this thread. They weren't even really close, finishing 7 games out of 8th.

[whottt]

There had been discussion of Nene plus some from Denver. I'd take him over anybody on the Spurs' roster.

And you also evidentally take a lot of LSD too...

I wouldn't take Nene over Oberto at this stage of the game. You do realize he destroyed his knee last season don't you? And he wasn't that good to begin with.




You could definitely pull Rashard Lewis plus a Nick Collison, at least, from Seattle.

?????

That's not a good deal...Rashard Lewis can't do shit where winning is concerned...and makes a ton of money.



You could get a thousand young potential stars from Portland.

Oh yeah...you just know Danny Ainge is in love with Portland players.


You could get Shawn Marion, maybe.

Um...since the Suns would be trading him for cap space...no you couldn't.


Andre Kirilinko, I'm sure.

Utah likes whitey more than Boston...and Kirilenko is younger. So no you couldn't.


Chicago would probably send Deng, Nocioni, and/or a package of some good young players. Maybe even Deng + Gordon.

Why would either of those teams want to do an interconference trade like that?

Ainge aint trading Pierce to the Bulls...I can gurandamntee you that.




ALL OF THESE ARE MUCH BETTER THAN THE EXPIRING CONTRACTS/SCRUBS GIFT BASKET THE SPURS COULD SEND.

#1. They aren't all better.
#2. There is absolutely no reason for any of those trades to be done other than maybe Seattle and Chicago...and the only one that actually improves the Celtics talent is the Chicago trade...

[Mr. Body]

#1. They aren't all better.
#2. There is absolutely no reason for any of those trades to be done other than maybe Seattle and Chicago...and the only one that actually improves the Celtics talent is the Chicago trade...

Yet I came up with all of them in a space of five minutes, off the top of my head. All would have filler to make them more attractive.

And spitting them out there, they are far better than any Spurs package.

I quit.

I'm nominating this thread for Worst Thread of the Year. It may not win, but it's certainly up there.

[ChumpDumper]

I forgot Veal.

So that's $24-29 million of creamy white goodness til '09. Add all the RFAs they'll have to sign that last year even when Pierce could be gone, cap space doesn't look to be a very realistic goal.

[SPARKY]

I forgot Veal.

So that's $24-29 million of creamy white goodness til '09. Add all the RFAs they'll have to sign that last year even when Pierce could be gone, cap space doesn't look to be a very realistic goal.

How about good old fashioned payroll reduction?

[Quadzilla99]

There had been discussion of Nene plus some from Denver. I'd take him over anybody on the Spurs' roster.

You could definitely pull Rashard Lewis plus a Nick Collison, at least, from Seattle.

You could get a thousand young potential stars from Portland.

You could get Shawn Marion, maybe.

Andre Kirilinko, I'm sure.

Chicago would probably send Deng, Nocioni, and/or a package of some good young players. Maybe even Deng + Gordon.

ALL OF THESE ARE MUCH BETTER THAN THE EXPIRING CONTRACTS/SCRUBS GIFT BASKET THE SPURS COULD SEND.

Exactly. Well let me edit that Portland doesn't have a thousand young stars but you could probably get Wallace and Okafor from Charlotte for him and they could absorb his salary as they are under the cap. Much better deal also. Among thousands of others.

[ChumpDumper]

How about good old fashioned payroll reduction?Capwise they are looking ok for the near future. I'm not sure if sending away the only reason to pay to see Celtic games the past 8 years is something ownership would look forward to. I think they hem and haw about this every season, but just can't bring themselves to pull the trigger. They're in a real no man's land.

[SPARKY]

Capwise they are looking ok for the near future. I'm not sure if sending away the only reason to pay to see Celtic games the past 8 years is something ownership would look forward to. I think they hem and haw about this every season, but just can't bring themselves to pull the trigger. They're in a real no man's land.

They've sucked for some time now and there's still a baseline of support for the team.

[ChumpDumper]

They've sucked for some time now and there's still a baseline of support for the team.Right. Because of Pierce.

[whottt]

Exactly. Well let me edit that Portland doesn't have a thousand young stars but you could probably get Wallace and Okafor from Charlotte for him and they could absorb his salary as they are under the cap. Much better deal also. Among thousands of others.


IF you were Charlotte why would you trade Okafor for Paul Pierce? Pierce isn't a franchise player.

If you wre Utah why would you trade Kirlilenko for Paul Pierce? Pierce isn't a franchise player..And Kililenko has more of a future...

If you were Phoenix and you are trying to cut payroll to resign Diaw, why would you trade Marion for Paul Pierce? And Marion is better anyway.

I mean you guys act like the other teams are all lining up to get him...


He's not a franchise player, he carries a big contract.

Why?

Again, the only deals ya'll have mentioned that makes sense are the Chicago and Seattle deals...

Some of the trades you guys are coming up with are stupider than Nazr and Barry for Pierce.

[whottt]

Capwise they are looking ok for the near future. I'm not sure if sending away the only reason to pay to see Celtic games the past 8 years is something ownership would look forward to. I think they hem and haw about this every season, but just can't bring themselves to pull the trigger. They're in a real no man's land.



Motivation?

How about the ability to turn one great player into 4 cheap and potentially good ones...

Where would Scola, Javtokas and Mahnimi go in this draft?


Danny Ainge is a team kind of guy...not a Superstar kind of guy....

[SequSpur]

The Spurs need Ben Wallace. Ben Wallace needs the Spurs.

Then sign Claxton and some other big and win another championship.

[whottt]

.

And spitting them out there, they are far better than any Spurs package.

I quit.

I'm nominating this thread for Worst Thread of the Year. It may not win, but it's certainly up there.


Um....they aren't better from the perspective of the other teams...

In fact some of those trades you suggested were incredibly stupid on the part of the other teams.

You seem to think that Boston wants to tread water...

Which teams have the picks you mentioned? Orlando? Who else?

I ask you the same thing I asked Chump...

Where would Scola, Mahnimi and Javtokas go in this years draft?

[ChumpDumper]

Motivation?

How about the ability to turn one great player into 4 cheap and potentially good ones...

Where would Scola, Javtokas and Mahnimi go in this draft?


Danny Ainge is a team kind of guy...not a Superstar kind of guy....Those kinds of trades for Pierce have been turned down before. It's not cut and dry -- how many Scola/Javtokas/Mahnimi jersey sales are you projecting?

[SPARKY]

He's not a franchise player, he carries a big contract.


Indeed. $15 mil per for a guy who can't get the team into the playoffs? In the EC? If they stay the course, he's not going to be looking for much of a decrease in his next contract when he's 31 and still has another 4 years or so left in him.

[Quadzilla99]

IF you were Charlotte why would you trade Okafor for Paul Pierce? Pierce isn't a franchise player.

If you wre Utah why would you trade Kirlilenko for Paul Pierce? Pierce isn't a franchise player..And Kililenko has more of a future...

If you were Phoenix and you are trying to cut payroll to resign Diaw, why would you trade Marion for Paul Pierce? And Marion is better anyway.

I mean you guys act like the other teams are all lining up to get him...


He's not a franchise player, he carries a big contract.

Why?

Again, the only deals ya'll have mentioned that makes sense are the Chicago and Seattle deals...

Some of the trades you guys are coming up with are stupider than Nazr and Barry for Pierce.

Dude you're not making any sense you just said before he was "a fucking stud". Yes he is a franchise player did you see the way he played the second half of last year?

February:33.5 ppg 48.1% fg

March:27.6 ppg 46% fg

His numbers for the year: 26.8 ppg 47.1% fg 5.7 rpg 4.7 apg.

I suppose Barkley and KG aren't franchise players because they had some bad teams in their primes?

[exstatic]

Fuck, I'd even take Veal from them if they cough Pierce.

Manu
Horry
Barry
Williams
Oberto

Pierce
"Veal" LaFrentz

Boston would fucking love Manu for those 70 games he plays per year, and the rest would be gone soon.

Veal was a good shotblocker and rebounder until Nellie got ahold of him, averaging close to 3 blocks and 7-8 boards per contest over a 3 year span. He can also stretch your defense. The only other players I've seen with that combination of shotblocking and 3 point marksmenship were Jonathan Bender and Eddie Griffin.

[whottt]

Right...Pierce only has value to a contender IMO...and how many contenders can offer what the Spurs can?

[ChumpDumper]

Wrong honky.

[Quadzilla99]

Fuck, I'd even take Veal from them if they cough Pierce.

Manu
Horry
Barry
Williams
Oberto

Pierce
"Veal" LaFrentz

Boston would fucking love Manu for those 70 games he plays per year, and the rest would be gone soon.

Veal was a good shotblocker and rebounder until Nellie got ahold of him, averaging close to 3 blocks and 7-8 boards per contest over a 3 year span. He can also stretch your defense. The only other players I've seen with that combination of shotblocking and 3 point marksmenship were Jonathan Bender and Eddie Griffin.

There you go that deal makes sense if we throw in a couple of picks maybe 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders.

[whottt]

Those kinds of trades for Pierce have been turned down before. It's not cut and dry -- how many Scola/Javtokas/Mahnimi jersey sales are you projecting?


Don't answer a question with a question...

Where would Javtokas, Scola and Mahnimi go in this years draft? Just in your opinion? It's already common thought that Scola would go high in this draft...has Mahnimi's stock gone down? What about Javtokas?

[whottt]

Dude you're not making any sense you just said before he was "a fucking stud". Yes he is a franchise player did you see the way he played the second half of last year?

February:33.5 ppg 48.1% fg

March:27.6 ppg 46% fg

His numbers for the year: 26.8 ppg 47.1% fg 5.7 rpg 4.7 apg.

I suppose Barkley and KG aren't franchise players because they had some bad teams in their primes?


I know what his numbers are...but he's still not a franchise player...he never was in the true sense.

[SPARKY]

Fuck, I'd even take Veal from them if they cough Pierce.

Manu
Horry
Barry
Williams
Oberto

Pierce
"Veal" LaFrentz

Boston would fucking love Manu for those 70 games he plays per year, and the rest would be gone soon.

Veal was a good shotblocker and rebounder until Nellie got ahold of him, averaging close to 3 blocks and 7-8 boards per contest over a 3 year span. He can also stretch your defense. The only other players I've seen with that combination of shotblocking and 3 point marksmenship were Jonathan Bender and Eddie Griffin.

Pierce + Veal carries a fairly substantial price tag. $26 mil next season.

[exstatic]

Wrong honky.
Oh, Sczerbiak? Yuck, they can keep Pierce if he's the price of admission.

[ChumpDumper]

Would Scola go high at his age?

This is a shitty, shitty draft. So three mid-to-late first rounders in a shitty, shitty draft who haven't played a second in the NBA are lower are worth Pierce?

I'm sure Zeke could put together a better deal.

I think alot if it depends on Ainge's ego with this particular draft. If he thinks he can get what he thinks is a missing piece at #5, expect no Pierce trade.

[whottt]

There you go that deal makes sense if we throw in a couple of picks maybe 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders.



That deal doesn't make sense because LaFrentz and Pierce make a combined 25 million...we don't have that much salary to give up unless we are talking 2 of our big 3.

[ChumpDumper]

Oh, Sczerbiak? Yuck, they can keep Pierce if he's the price of admission.Strike two.

C'mon guys....

[whottt]

Would Scola go high at his age?

This is a shitty, shitty draft. So three mid-to-late first rounders in a shitty, shitty draft who haven't played a second in the NBA are lower are worth Pierce?

Since Pierce can't get them to the playoffs..yeah.




I'm sure Zeke could put together a better deal.

Like what?




I think alot if it depends on Ainge's ego with this particular draft. If he thinks he can get what he thinks is a missing piece at #5, expect no Pierce trade.

IF it's true about Pierce being put on the block, there's more at issue here than a missing piece.

We already know Ainge wants to bring his own guys in...ask Toine.

[whottt]

The Knicks idea has more merit than anything else suggested in opposition to what the Spurs could offer...

The Knicks could get half the NBA under the cap if they wanted too...

There's just one thing...the Knicks and Celtics hate each other, institutionally, are both run by 2 GM's with attitude, and are probably the last two teams that would do a trade together.


No way does Ainge want Paul Pierce getting stuck up his ass 4 times a year...

[ChumpDumper]

Since Pierce can't get them to the playoffs..yeah.Who blames Pierce for that? Boston fans?
Like what?Like players who actually played in the NBA.
IF it's true about Pierce being put on the block, there's more at issue here than a missing piece.IF Pierce has been on the block before and not been traded, there's more at issue here than wanting four guys who haven't played in the league before. Again, we're talking about Ainge's perception -- and the owners' -- not ours.

[ChumpDumper]

The Knicks idea has more merit than anything else suggested in opposition to what the Spurs could offer...

The Knicks could get half the NBA under the cap if they wanted too...

There's just one thing...the Knicks and Celtics hate each other, institutionally, are both run by 2 GM's with attitude, and are probably the last two teams that would do a trade together.


No way does Ainge want Paul Pierce getting stuck up his ass 4 times a year...Well, that depends on which guy thinks he is screwing the other worse. Oh to be a fly on the wall for those negotiations....

[whottt]

Sorry Dump...you usually make a good Devil's advocate but you just aren't getting the job done.

Look obviously...If Pierce is on the block, it's not because they are expecting to get better Superstar in return...because it's not going to happen. And I doubt a #5 pick is going to fix it either. Ainge wants his guys...and it's a rebuild even if not a salary dump rebuld.


Too me it's obvious that if they are even talking about this then they intend to tank the season...and don't say Boston is above doing this...

The Spurs do have talent, and it's talent that doesn't have to be signed right away neccessarily. It's cheap talent, and it's all IMO, first round talent.

I mean I like our overseas talent and most of the scouts do too.

I don't see him getting very many good offers for Pierce...because Pierce isn't going to change the fortunes of a bad team, he's not young, and he's expensive...



Only a good one...how many good teams can offer more than the Spurs, that won't fuck up a good tank job?

[ChumpDumper]

Look obviously...If Pierce is on the block, it's not because they are expecting to get better Superstar in return...because it's not going to happen.They've aparently turned down better trades than you've put forth, that's all.
Too me it's obvious that if they are even talking about this then they intend to tank the season...But, they've been talking about trading him for years now. Regardless of how badly the team does, Pierce is still their main draw and nobody we would offer is going to become the cash cow he is.
I don't see him getting very many good offers for Pierce...because Pierce isn't going to change the fortunes of a bad team...only a good one...how many good teams can offer more than the Spurs, that won't fuck up a good tank job?I don't think any GM could justify killing the golden goose after committing to Wally for three more seasons.

[whottt]

They've aparently turned down better trades than you've put forth, that's all.
Like who? Like what?


But, they've been talking about trading him for years now.
And how mahy of those other years were as shitty as this one?


Regardless of how badly the team does, Pierce is still their main draw and nobody we would offer is going to become the cash cow he is.

Oh please...it's fucking Boston. Draw, cash cow....it's Boston.

Yeah...maybe they'll have to move the team if they lose. Gimme a fucking break.




I don't think any GM could justify killing the golden goose after committing to Wally for three more seasons.

Golden Gooses don't finish in the lottery.

[baseline bum]

Here's a deal that makes a lot of sense....

Stackhouse - $8,000,000
Bradley - $4,800,000
Abdul-Wahad - $1,968,750
Eschemeyer - $3,711,400
Podkolzine - $1,221,240
Diop - $2,160,000
Rawle Marshall - $664,209

TOTAL: $22.5256 million

- for -

Paul Pierce - $15,101,626
Wally Szczerzbiak - $11,000,000

TOTAL - $26.1016 million

85 % of $26.1016 million is $22.18 million, meaning Dallas' deal works under the cap.

PG Terry
SG Pierce
SF Howard
PF Nowitzki
C Dampier
6 Harris
7 Daniels
8 Szczerzbiak
9 Griffin
10 MLE
11 MBenga


That's a really scary thought... everyone Dallas moves comes off the books in 2007 except for Diop and Bradley, who combine for about $7 million in 2007 and come off in 2008.

In this scenario Boston is looking at having about $27-$28 million committed in 2007. If they're looking to dump Pierce for nothing this trade makes so much sense, seeing they get to dump Szcerzbiak and get a quickly improving bigman in Diop too. I think this hugely trumps what the Spurs can give.

[whottt]

What makes everyone think Ainge wants to dump Wally?


It's Boston....

[ChumpDumper]

In that vein, it's obvious Ainge is just waiting out the BYC period to trade Pierce and Jefferson for Troy Murphy and Mike Dunleavy. In the meantime they can swap picks so Ainge will eventually end up with:

Dickau
Reddick
Szczerbiak
Murphy
LaFrentz

And MickeyD off the bench.

[whottt]

Just sayin'...he just traded for Wally. I assume there was a reason for it.


I could see him being ready to dump LaFrentz...but I have a hunch he's planning on keeping Wally.

[whottt]

Here's a deal that makes a lot of sense....

Stackhouse - $8,000,000
Bradley - $4,800,000
Abdul-Wahad - $1,968,750
Eschemeyer - $3,711,400
Podkolzine - $1,221,240
Diop - $2,160,000
Rawle Marshall - $664,209

TOTAL: $22.5256 million

- for -

Paul Pierce - $15,101,626
Wally Szczerzbiak - $11,000,000

TOTAL - $26.1016 million

85 % of $26.1016 million is $22.18 million, meaning Dallas' deal works under the cap.

PG Terry
SG Pierce
SF Howard
PF Nowitzki
C Dampier
6 Harris
7 Daniels
8 Szczerzbiak
9 Griffin
10 MLE
11 MBenga


That's a really scary thought... everyone Dallas moves comes off the books in 2007 except for Diop and Bradley, who combine for about $7 million in 2007 and come off in 2008.

In this scenario Boston is looking at having about $27-$28 million committed in 2007. If they're looking to dump Pierce for nothing this trade makes so much sense, seeing they get to dump Szcerzbiak and get a quickly improving bigman in Diop too. I think this hugely trumps what the Spurs can give.

It trumps it in terms of cap relief but not necessarily in terms of talent...I mean that talent trade off sucks. Diop aint all that.....

For cap purposes it does work...and Boston might also set a record for number of C's on a roster in a season.

It's a good deal, and probably the best one I have seen suggested...but no one wants to give any credit at all for the talent the Spurs have sitting overseas...No one is saying these guys are scrubs you know.

The one piece they get a C is probably not their greatest need even in terms of rebuild...and Perkins is impropving.

Edit: I just looked, I'd take Perkins over Diop period right now.

[Mavs_man_41]

Here's a deal that makes a lot of sense....

Stackhouse - $8,000,000
Bradley - $4,800,000
Abdul-Wahad - $1,968,750
Eschemeyer - $3,711,400
Podkolzine - $1,221,240
Diop - $2,160,000
Rawle Marshall - $664,209

TOTAL: $22.5256 million

- for -

Paul Pierce - $15,101,626
Wally Szczerzbiak - $11,000,000

TOTAL - $26.1016 million

85 % of $26.1016 million is $22.18 million, meaning Dallas' deal works under the cap.

PG Terry
SG Pierce
SF Howard
PF Nowitzki
C Dampier
6 Harris
7 Daniels
8 Szczerzbiak
9 Griffin
10 MLE
11 MBenga


That's a really scary thought... everyone Dallas moves comes off the books in 2007 except for Diop and Bradley, who combine for about $7 million in 2007 and come off in 2008.

In this scenario Boston is looking at having about $27-$28 million committed in 2007. If they're looking to dump Pierce for nothing this trade makes so much sense, seeing they get to dump Szcerzbiak and get a quickly improving bigman in Diop too. I think this hugely trumps what the Spurs can give.


Lol I wish this would happen, there have already been paul pierce to dallas rumors.

[baseline bum]

It trumps it in terms of cap relief but not necessarily in terms of talent...I mean that talent trade off sucks. Diop aint all that.....

For cap purposes it does work...and Boston might also set a record for number of C's on a roster in a season.

It's a good deal, and probably the best one I have seen suggested...but no one wants to give any credit at all for the talent the Spurs have sitting overseas...No one is saying these guys are scrubs you know.

The one piece they get a C is probably not their greatest need even in terms of rebuild...and Perkins is impropving.

Edit: I just looked, I'd take Perkins over Diop period right now.

They gotta have it one way or the other... cap relief or talent in return. I can't see Pierce going without someone taking Wally or Raef. Besides, they could tank for Oden with this trade.

The trade also works if you swap Wally-World and LaFrentz.

[whottt]

They gotta have it one way or the other... cap relief or talent in return. I can't see Pierce going without someone taking Wally or Raef. Besides, they could tank for Oden with this trade.

I think they if they are considering this they definitely are considering tanking for Oden...it is that time of the decade.

But I think the trade with the Spurs would have more upside...Argentine stock is pretty high right now, and if the Spurs were to throw Mahnimi in on the deal, there's no telling his upside. And the Celtics don't have to sign either of them right now(well Scola might have to be signed by the Spurs to make the trade work, but still).

The Spurs deal doesn't give them the cap space...but it does give them something to put around Oden if they do get him, and something to have if they don't get Oden.


The trade also works if you swap Wally-World and LaFrentz.

Right, and I think they'd probably try to send Raef back to Dallas before dealing Wally.

Wally is the better player, but he's not quite good enough to screw up a good tank job.

[whottt]

I wonder what Danny Ainge thinks of Cuban...that would have something to do with it too...if he did that trade with Dallas it would definitely increase their title chances...

I don't have a doubt in my mind that Ainge has more respect for the Spurs than Dallas..

[baseline bum]

I don't hear a lot of interest in Scola. Mahinmi may be a different story because his athleticism is so sick, but trading Pierce to save one year's worth of the money on his deal without moving a huge contract makes no sense to me. I'd assume just to keep Pierce in that case.

For the record, I don't want Pierce here. Not enough shots to go around, and he does nothing to address our shitty rebounding that doomed the Spurs this playoffs.

[Mavs_man_41]

I wonder what Danny Ainge thinks of Cuban...that would have something to do with it too...if he did that trade with Dallas it would definitely increase their title chances...

I don't have a doubt in my mind that Ainge has more respect for the Spurs than Dallas..

Lol i dont think Ainge would care where Pierce went, both teams are title contenders from the west, not the east. I'd imagine he would take the best offer.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

For the Spurs? Uh, no.

[whottt]

I don't hear a lot of interest in Scola. Mahinmi may be a different story because his athleticism is so sick, but trading Pierce to save one year's worth of the money on his deal without moving a huge contract makes no sense to me. I'd assume just to keep Pierce in that case.

For the record, I don't want Pierce here. Not enough shots to go around, and he does nothing to address our shitty rebounding that doomed the Spurs this playoffs.

Pierce pulls down 6 boards a game basically as a 2 guard...he's got the game to play any of the 1-4 positions in a smallball lineup and create a mismatch at all of them...he gives us a second post up threat, he can slash...I mean he's better than Bonzi or Artest as far as being a little bigman. No way the Mavs can hang with us if we get him and manage to keep Manu and Parker. I want to see them try to defend that.

I don't see what's not to like...dude's not a ball hog, he actually liked playing with Toine.


The only problems I see with this deal, my way, are that we'd be totally screwed in the post Duncan era and would have to scramble to find a C for this year...but I'd still be willing to do that to add Pierce to Manu, Duncan and Parker...

That'd be an insanely difficult lineup to matchup with...no one in the NBA could do it.

[Mavs_man_41]

Pierce pulls down 6 boards a game basically as a 2 guard...he's got the game to play any of the 1-4 positions in a smallball lineup and create a mismatch at all of them...he gives us a second post up threat, he can slash...I mean he's better than Bonzi or Artest as far as being a little bigman.

I don't see what's not to like...dude's not a ball hog, he actually liked playing with Toine.

I agree, pierce is awesome. One of the most complete players in the game. I imagine alot of teams will be after him, not just the mavs or spurs.

[whottt]

He's awesome to a good team...but if I was mediocre and had to give up talent to get him...I wouldn't be excited about him...because he's not a franchise player IMO.

If I were Utah or Minnesota etc...I wouldn't touch him.

[whottt]

And even as much as I like him...I wouldn't do any deal that required us to give up Manu or Parker for him.

[baseline bum]

This reminds me of our Webber/Robinson arguments 5 years ago. Webber was of course the better player (who I wanted then), while it turned out David was a better fit for us because he addressed a glaring need. Pierce has facets of his game that our guards don't such as the ability to get to the line and rebound better, but I love our ability to score from the perimeter already, and I don't want to do anything to take Tim further out of our offense. A big who can grab boards should be this team's #1 priority. For the SF I'd like to get an athlete with long arms who can move his feet.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Let me rephrase...

No way, unless we can keep Manu/TP/Tim somehow. I don't see how we could do that, but having those 4 would be sick.

[johngateswhiteley]

this is a dumb, dumb, dumb...thread. the spurs are not getting paul pierce.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

this is a dumb, dumb, dumb...thread. the spurs are not getting paul pierce.

Welcome to the offseason.

[whottt]

Hmmm...I just found an interesting snippet:

http://www.rotowire.com/roto_to_gnews.htm?ID=71932&sport=nba

Paul Pierce: Will Begin Discussing a New Contract with Boston - 6/22/2006 7:56:24 AM

Update:
Pierce and director of basketball operations Danny Ainge are expected to meet soon to begin dialogue on a contract extension, the Boston Herald reports.

Recommendation:
Pierce is signed through the 2007-2008 season, but has an option to sever the deal next summer and become an unrestricted free agent. With five years now the maximum a player can have on his contract, the Celtics will thus be trying to get Pierce inked through 2010-2011. "I don't have a date scheduled with Paul, but we'll talk soon," Ainge said. "We're not going to get anything resolved right away, but we'll start the talks." Ainge refused to comment on statements made by Heat forward Antoine Walker telling Pierce that he may need to go elsewhere to compete for a title.



Could the reason the Celts might be trying to move him be because they think they will lose him?

Obviously, his contract isn't the issue...and now a trade doesn't seem like such a good deal since it would basically be for one year.

But just to add a little intrigue to this...it seems Pierce does have leverage to demand a trade, pretty much anywhere he wants to go.

And I don't think he was too happy about the way Antoine Walker was dumped in Boston.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

^ LoL at Walker giving Pierce advise on how to win a title.

[whottt]

You do realize that Antione Walker just won a title right? And, believe it or not, he played well.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

He deserved it more than...say...Derek Anderson.

[Nikos]

No. It's not feasible. Just more off-season unicorn wishes.

Would be nice if more threads of players that the Spurs actually have a 5-10% of getting were made. But lets pretend the Spurs and Celtics actually would consider making a deal.

If the Spurs could get Pierce without giving up too much of course I would take him. Pierce is better than Manu and Parker at this point.

But the Celtics wouldn't want anyone besides Tony Parker and Manu as a sweetner. While I consider Pierce to be superior to Tony by a decent margin, the Spurs still feel Tony has a lot of growth left and would probably feel he would be too much to give up at this point. Plus Pierce wouldn't be worth getting if they had to give up their starting backcourt most likely, (unless they could sign someone like Speedy or another very good PG).

Pierce has about 2-3 years left until he starts to slip, provided he doesn't injure himself. Duncan and Pierce would make a hell of a duo. I think Pierce could become even more efficient of a scorer in the Spurs system. He could also be solid on defense as well. He might not be the playmaker Manu is, but he is a superior scorer and holds much more value as a regular season player.

[SPARKY]

Make them, then. People like to bitch but don't like to take a stab, apparently.

[kalikot_boy_kr]

nooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

[rascal]

Great player but he wouldn't fit well with the Spurs.
I don't understand this line of thinking. Pierce is a difference maker. A proven top scorer and with a very good perimeter game. Can hit the long range shot and also go to the basket. Why would he not be a good addition?

His defense is also good. What do you want? Just role players? That line of thinking will get you to the 2nd round every year and no further because another team will have more overall talent.

[rascal]

I would even include manu in a trade to land Pierce. Pierce is the better player.

[DarrinS]

The only thing not to like about Pierce is the price tag. He's an awesome player.


I'd wish the Spurs could get a guy like Pierce or Shawn Marrion, so that Tim could move to center. I think Marrion is about 5 million cheaper.

[atxrocker]

paul pierce is a fucking stud. i do think a pierce/td/parker lineup would be sick. having said that i don't see this move happening without san antonio moving some big pieces, which apparently is not what most spurs fans want. i personally think pierce is underrated.

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

eh. I don't see PP as a good choice for us.


PP>>>Manu

[ducks]

A source within the league said the Sixers have spoken to the Boston Celtics, checking to see whether the Celtics have interest in Allen Iverson.

[T Park]

I would even include manu in a trade to land Pierce

your a fucking idiot.

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

your a fucking idiot.



you Manu is better then PP?

[Quadzilla99]

I'd give your left nut for Paul Pierce.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Pierce would be ridiculous as a spur, if we keep tony manu and tim

he could revert to becoming a straight up slasher, which is his main strength, and would get to the line more than any other player in the league. I would trade anyone but the big three for him in a heartbeat. Whottt is right, ya'll are crazy.

[ducks]

if you kepted manu,tp, and duncan boston fans would be very pissed at spurs
they already are for getting duncan

[johngateswhiteley]

Pierce would be ridiculous as a spur, if we keep tony manu and tim

he could revert to becoming a straight up slasher, which is his main strength, and would get to the line more than any other player in the league. I would trade anyone but the big three for him in a heartbeat. Whottt is right, ya'll are crazy.


...what whott and you don't seem to understand is that the spurs are not getting pierce for anything but manu or tony or both. so everyone in this post that says they don't want pierce or it's not going to happen....is correct. it would only happen if manu and parker are included and, frankly, i think thats a poor trade for the spurs.....there is this thing called chemistry...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

...what whott and you don't seem to understand is that the spurs are not getting pierce for anything but manu or tony or both. so everyone in this post that says they don't want pierce or it's not going to happen....is correct. it would only happen if manu and parker are included and, frankly, i think thats a poor trade for the spurs.....there is this thing called chemistry...



well assuming the big three aren't involved, naturally, i said that in my first post


and chemistry? There's also this thing called an iron fist, and pop reigns down from upon with an iron fist at any bitch ass who questions his powah

[johngateswhiteley]

well assuming the big three aren't involved, naturally, i said that in my first post


and chemistry? There's also this thing called an iron fist, and pop reigns down from upon with an iron fist at any bitch ass who questions his powah

...your not listening. there is no assuming the big three are not involved. they would HAVE to be. that's it. that's all. don't pass go. do not collect 200$. period. i don't know how clearer i can be...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

pop would find a way