Sales like this one are counterproductive....

[Phenomanul]

By BARRY SCHWEID, AP Diplomatic Writer


WASHINGTON - The Bush administration has notified Congress it has approved the sale of 18 new F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan as part of a $5 billion weapons deal.

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The package, which includes an option to purchase another 18 F-16 fighter jets, an offer to modernize 26 used aircraft already in Pakistan's arsenal, as well as logistical and other support was quietly sent to Congress on Wednesday.

It coincides with an administration drive in Congress for endorsement of nuclear cooperation with India, a historic rival of Pakistan. But a State Department spokeswoman, Julie Reside, said the two actions are unrelated.

"We believe in treating each country individually," Reside said. "Each faces defense issues different from the other."

Pakistan has strained for years to purchase new F-16 jets. Its support for the United States in countering terrorism apparently bolstered its case.

"The sale is part of an effort to broaden our strategic partnership with Pakistan and advance our national security and foreign policy interests in South Asia," Reside said. "Pakistan is a long-term partner and major non-NATO ally."

Congress has 30 days to reject the sale. State Department officials have been conferring privately with members of Congress, apparently finding them receptive to the weapons deal.

India and Pakistan, both nuclear-armed, have fought three wars over the future of the Kashmir territory. They have competed over the years for military advantage.

Reside, dismissing any suggestion the U.S. sale would contribute to an arms race, said a dialogue between the two countries had helped reduce tensions and provided greater stability in the area.

[ChumpDumper]

Care to elaborate?

[Nesterofish]

$5 billion is a lot of money. That can buy body armoe and such for the troops. Are you so smart you know better than the Bush Administration who to sell things to?

[DarkReign]

$5 billion is a lot of money. That can buy body armoe and such for the troops. Are you so smart you know better than the Bush Administration who to sell things to?

Wow...just wow.

Is every thread you post in destined for this sort of wisdom?

I thought gtown was bad...you have topped even him.

Do you even know Boa? Obviously not...

[Phenomanul]

Care to elaborate?

From a business standpoint it makes sense... Especially when one considers that if we didn't sell them these technologies, then other militarized countries would... Instead, we make the sale and have an opportunity to re-invest some of the profits (in R&D programs) to stay ahead of the curve...

From a political standpoint it doesn't make sense...
You never know what regime will 'inherit' these weapons...

Pakistan and India are one misunderstanding away from blowing each other up as it is... and we're playing both sides???

Did we not learn from the Iraq-Iran war???... I mean we practically trained Osam* B L ourselves...

[scott]

Not to mention the fact that while we are trying to enforce the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty, we are supplying weapons to a known violator of the treaty.

[Phenomanul]

Having watched Lord of War again... one realizes that the Military is one immensly powered and independently self-moving branch of Government...

I don't even believe the White House is aware of everything the Military (i.e. the Pentagon) is up to.

Not to mention rogue military leaders...

[ChumpDumper]

From a political standpoint it doesn't make sense...
You never know what regime will 'inherit' these weapons...

Pakistan and India are one misunderstanding away from blowing each other up as it is... and we're playing both sides???

Did we not learn from the Iraq-Iran war???... I mean we practically trained Osam* B L ourselves...Well, they're our boys right now, and Pakistan is booming from all of this help they are giving us -- hopefully the average Pakistani will realize that.

As for them and India blowing each other up -- both have nukes and Pakistan is definitely the country that would use them first in any large scale conflict. Good ol' MAD is what's keeping tensions from boiling over down there.

18 fighter planes doesn't tip any balance there. They would've gotten them from somebody, so might as well be us.

[Phenomanul]

Well, they're our boys right now, and Pakistan is booming from all of this help they are giving us -- hopefully the average Pakistani will realize that.

As for them and India blowing each other up -- both have nukes and Pakistan is definitely the country that would use them first in any large scale conflict. Good ol' MAD is what's keeping tensions from boiling over down there.

18 fighter planes doesn't tip any balance there. They would've gotten them from somebody, so might as well be us.


The 'average Pakistani' is a non-existent classification in an Islam controlled country.

And I know I will get all sorts of hell for saying that... considering I'm a major proponent of the tenets of Christianity... The difference between the religions despite whatever similarity many believe them to have is that in Christianity... you are given the freedom of choice; one is still entitled to do as they please (knowing fully well -- some not as much -- that accountability for ones actions will come from above). In Islam, men try to assume the judgement seat that belongs solely to GOD. That doesn't work... it is a coercive religion since any opposition to their tenets is usually met with exile, death or both...

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I agree that financially its a good deal (duh, we're getting money),that is a no brainer.


But I find it lame of the nation to play both sides of the india pakistan thing and stupid for them to think this will somehow pay off for them in the long run when india and pakistan inevitably start another war.

What is there to gain in the long run from this? We're hooking up a dirty muslim terrost-hiding, nuclear arm treaty breaking country. Don't make sense CORSO.

[ChumpDumper]

The 'average Pakistani' is a non-existent classification in an Islam controlled country.

And I know I will get all sorts of hell for saying that... considering I'm a major proponent of the tenets of Christianity... The difference between the religions despite whatever similarity many believe them to have is that in Christianity... you are given the freedom of choice; one is still entitled to do as they please (knowing fully well -- some not as much -- that accountability for ones actions will come from above). In Islam, men try to assume the judgement seat that belongs solely to GOD. That doesn't work... it is a coercive religion since any opposition to their tenets is usually met with exile, death or both...Well, if we're just going off on a "Islam bad" tangent, there's no use continuing the discussion. The only logical conclusion from that line of thought is killing all the Muslims whottt-style.

[DarkReign]

What is there to gain in the long run from this? We're hooking up a dirty muslim terrost-hiding, nuclear arm treaty breaking country. Don't make sense CORSO.

Didnt you read?


"The sale is part of an effort to broaden our strategic partnership with Pakistan and advance our national security and foreign policy interests in South Asia," Reside said. "Pakistan is a long-term partner and major non-NATO ally."

Duh! I mean, where would we be without Pakistan, man?! Them peeps is our niggas!

BTW, for once I agree with boa. If there were a choice between Islam and Christianity...no brainer.

[DarkReign]

Well, if we're just going off on a "Islam bad" tangent, there's no use continuing the discussion. The only logical conclusion from that line of thought is killing all the Muslims whottt-style.

Cmon dude. Not all, just a good majority...

[ChumpDumper]

Um, Indians are Hindu and Buddhist

[Cant_Be_Faded]

there are millions of muslims in india too

[ChumpDumper]

They'll be killed by the seven Christians there.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

:lol hyeah, there are a buttload of christians there too, more than people realize.

Those missionaries have to be using hypnotic methods i swear.

[boutons_]

"Indians are Hindu and Buddhist"

Not all Indian Muslims left for East Pakistan/Bangladesh at partition.

137 million current Indians are Muslim. 3rd largest Muslim population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_India

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I wish India would hurry up and destroy Pakistan whott-style so we can form a concrete allliance with them to fend off the overwhelming, devestating, tenacious horde that is CHINA.

[ChumpDumper]

"Indians are Hindu and Buddhist"

Not all Indian Muslims left for East Pakistan/Bangladesh at partition.

137 million current Indians are Muslim. 3rd largest Muslim population.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_in_IndiaThose are the "bad" Indians.

[exstatic]

$5 billion is a lot of money. That can buy body armoe and such for the troops. Are you so smart you know better than the Bush Administration who to sell things to?
You do understand that the money goes to General Dynamics, a corporation? I doubt that their shareholders would be too happy at them springing for body armor out of proceeds from aircraft sales. The only thing that the Adminstration does is approve or disapprove the sale. Dumbfuck.

As to the question of where would we be without Pakistan? Probably displaying ObL's head on a pike in Washington DC. Fuckers are obstructing the hell out of our cursory search for the REAL 9/11 culprit.

Musharraf = Saddam, circa early 80s.

[clambake]

Stop worrying about body armour nessy! Sure, the parents have paid for it but, it's a tax deduction.

You can thank mr. bush for that. Alway's looking out for us taxpayers.

[MannyIsGod]

You do understand that the money goes to General Dynamics, a corporation? I doubt that their shareholders would be too happy at them springing for body armor out of proceeds from aircraft sales. The only thing that the Adminstration does is approve or disapprove the sale. Dumbfuck.

As to the question of where would we be without Pakistan? Probably displaying ObL's head on a pike in Washington DC. Fuckers are obstructing the hell out of our cursory search for the REAL 9/11 culprit.

Musharraf = Saddam, circa early 80s.Are you sure the money goes to GD? I'm pretty sure they're getting mothballed planes from our inventory not new ones from GD.

[Zoe String]

What factors led up to this sale? Was there a tit-for-tat?

[Nesterofish]

Something like a simple arms sale and all of you are crying conspiracy. Pakistan is our ally in the War on Terror. You can't have an arms embargo against your ally. You act like Bush is stupid or something. Ha ha. I bet if you were the Oval Office you would cower in the corner with youre dick in your hand.

[clambake]

You speak of dick, much, nessy!

If I were the oval office I'd be in DC.

[exstatic]

Are you sure the money goes to GD? I'm pretty sure they're getting mothballed planes from our inventory not new ones from GD.
Manny, I don't think we would sell U.S. spec planes to a country that could vanish tommorrow into Islamic fundamentalism, and I don't think we would have any other kind mothballed.

Fishbreath - If Pakistan were our ally in fighting terrorism, they would hand over ObL instead of protecting him. They know exactly where in the trirbal lands he is, but political concerns prevent Musharraf from handing him over.

[spurster]

This is just the next step in bringing democracy and freedom to the Middle East.

[Jekka]

Manny, I don't think we would sell U.S. spec planes to a country that could vanish tommorrow into Islamic fundamentalism, and I don't think we would have any other kind mothballed.

Fishbreath - If Pakistan were our ally in fighting terrorism, they would hand over ObL instead of protecting him. They know exactly where in the trirbal lands he is, but political concerns prevent Musharraf from handing him over.

Ex, when planes are sold to another country like this they usually come from the mothball fleet. They are removed of certain components to protect technologies but otherwise they get the same planes our people get. If we're selling them planes, this is most likely where they are coming from. I really doubt General Dynamics is making new planes.

[scott]

I don't think F-16s are in production anymore... but I could be wrong.

[scott]

According to Wikipedia... Lockheed (which bought GD's aviation unit in 1993) still makes em...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_Martin_Aeronautics

Edit: and indeed, Lockheed still lists it as a current product on it's webpage.

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=9&sc=400

[Jekka]

That last post was Manny.

I'm too lazy to sign Jess out of the laptop.

[Jekka]

I just read another article. The agreement is to purchase NEW F16s so I'm assuming that these would be newly produced models. Part of the agreement is to also purchase some used 16s, however.

[Nbadan]

As I've been saying, the F-16's are damn good planes, but obsolete. This deal puts the pressure on India to step up it's own inventory of fighters. The arms race goes on and on and on....

[Goliadnative]

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/14937999.htm

Deal to sell F-16s to Pakistan advancesBy BOB COX
STAR-TELEGRAM STAFF WRITER
The Bush administration has notified Congress that it plans to sell new F-16 fighter jets to Pakistan, an action that will preserve jobs at Lockheed Martin's west Fort Worth plant.

Pakistan would be allowed to purchase 18 F-16s with an option for 18 more and an offer to upgrade 26 used F-16s. The package, which would include armaments and other support, was sent to Congress on Wednesday.

Pakistan has tried for years to purchase new F-16s. Those bids were denied because of U.S. efforts to defuse tensions between Pakistan and India. The country's support for the U.S. war on terrorism bolstered its case, but Pakistan delayed its purchase last year as the country focused on recovering from a devastating earthquake.

"The sale is part of an effort to broaden our strategic partnership with Pakistan and advance our national security and foreign-policy interests in South Asia," State Department spokeswoman Julie Reside said.

Congress has 30 days to reject the sale. State Department officials have been conferring privately with members of Congress.

Sen. Kay Bailey Hutchison of Texas said in a statement, "I fully support the sale of F-16s to Pakistan, our strong ally in the war on terror."

Lockheed spokesman Dexter Henson said the company "is pleased that the administration has notified Congress of the potential sale of F-16s to Pakistan. ... We value our long-standing relationship with the government of Pakistan and ... the confidence they have placed in our products in support of their nation's security."


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob Cox, 817-390-7723 [email protected]

As was said above, when sales are made to foreign countries, they usually don't get the latest and greatest technology. The US military is looking to eventually replace the F16 with the F35 Joint Strike Fighter which is also being built by Lockheed in Ft Worth.

[DarkReign]

Something like a simple arms sale and all of you are crying conspiracy. Pakistan is our ally in the War on Terror. You can't have an arms embargo against your ally. You act like Bush is stupid or something. Ha ha. I bet if you were the Oval Office you would cower in the corner with youre dick in your hand.

http://www.hategun.com/blog/images/redneck.jpg

http://blog.davisvillage.com/images/redneck.jpg

http://www.cardsquad.com/images/2005/09/yosemite-sam2.gif

[xrayzebra]

Love the pictures of your family DR....LOL

[MannyIsGod]

As You've been saying Dan? :lmao


Dude, you try to give yourself credit for everything.

[DarkReign]

Love the pictures of your family DR....LOL

Damn, I didnt think anyone would notice....

[ChumpDumper]

As I've been saying, the F-16's are damn good planes, but obsolete.Link?

I can't find it.