On Rape and Troop Beheadings in Iraq

[Nbadan]

U.S. troops accused of killing Iraq family
By RYAN LENZ, Associated Press Writer


BEIJI, Iraq - The U.S. Army will investigate charges that five American soldiers were involved in the killings of four Iraqi relatives, including a woman who had been raped, military officials said Friday. It's the sixth current inquiry into the alleged slayings of Iraqi civilians by American troops.

Some of the five soldiers also allegedly burned the body of the woman they are accused of assaulting in the March incident, a U.S. military official told The Associated Press on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the case.

The U.S. command issued a statement saying only that Maj. Gen. James D. Thurman, commander of coalition troops in Baghdad, had ordered a criminal investigation into the alleged killing of a family of four in Mahmoudiyah, south of Baghdad.

At least 14 American troops have been convicted in other cases.

The United States also is investigating allegations that two dozen unarmed Iraqi civilians were killed by Marines in the western town of Haditha on Nov. 19 in a revenge attack after one of their own died in a roadside bombing.

"The entire investigation will encompass everything that could have happened that evening. We're not releasing any specifics of an ongoing investigation," military spokesman Maj. Todd Breasseale said of the Mahmoudiyah allegations.

"There is no indication what led soldiers to this home. The investigation just cracked open. We're just beginning to dig into the details."

Pentagon spokesman Bryan Whitman said he had no additional details on the incident but added that the military routinely investigates all allegations of misconduct.

However, a U.S. official close to the investigation said at least one of the soldiers, all assigned to the 502nd Infantry Regiment, has admitted his role and been arrested. Two soldiers from the same regiment were slain this month when they were kidnapped at a checkpoint near Youssifiyah.

The official told the AP the accused soldiers were from the same platoon as the two slain soldiers. The military has said one and possibly both of the slain soldiers were tortured and beheaded.

The official said the mutilation of the slain soldiers stirred feelings of guilt and led at least one of them to reveal the rape-slaying on June 22.

According to a senior Army official, the alleged incident was first revealed by a soldier during a routine counseling-type session. The official, who requested anonymity because the investigation is ongoing, said that soldier did not witness the incident but heard about it.

A second soldier, who also was not involved, said he overhead soldiers conspiring to commit the crimes, and then later saw bloodstains on their clothes, the official said.

He also said the four people killed included three adults and a child, and one of the adults was the woman who allegedly was raped.

One of the accused soldiers already has been discharged and is believed to be in the United States, several U.S. officials said on condition of anonymity because the investigation is ongoing. The others have had their weapons taken away and are confined to Forward Operating Base Mahmoudiyah.

Senior officers were aware of the family's death but believed it was due to sectarian violence, common in the religiously mixed town, a U.S. official said.

The killings appeared to have been a "crime of opportunity," the official said. The soldiers had not been attacked by insurgents but had noticed the woman on previous patrols.

U.S. Army soldiers from the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment conduct a routine patrol in Mahmoudiyah, Iraq Sunday, May 28, 2006. The U.S. Army will investigate charges that five American soldiers from the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, were involved in the killings of four Iraqi relatives, including a woman who had been raped, military officials said Friday - the sixth current inquiry into the alleged slayings of Iraqi civilians by American troops. (AP Photo/Ryan Lenz)

Yahoo News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060630/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_soldiers_investigated)

The desecration of the two American troops body, gastly sexual torture, sure points toward retribution for the killing of this Iraq woman. Not saying it's right, just saying it's what likely happened.

[clubalien]

personally I am againts rape don't know why the neo cons would be pro rape.

problem both parties don'tseem to honor all of the consition both the freedom of speech and freedom to bear arms along with all the other rights!

[Cant_Be_Faded]

This isn't a surprise. Remember when they had a pile of naked half dead iraqis and a lesbian dykie ass marine was pointing at them, laughing at them, and the picture was leaked? Don't hear about that anymore, but now 3 years later we're hearing about rape....you all know this shit has been going down since day 1 of occupation.

hahahaha, i wonder if any dirty neocons really do defend rape.

[mookie2001]

its the medias fault for publishing these stories, because if they didnt tell us, we would never know

[Ya Vez]

and rape doesn't happen in a free american society? hell the russians raped and murdered all the way into berlin during WW2... I wonder if the left was as worked up about it then as they are now... crime is crime no matter who committ's it.. focus on punishing the ones who committed the crime.. don't blame the US leadership for what a individual does.... but thats all the left can do is get wet over stories like this to blame bush for it...

[Clandestino]

no shit... rapes and murders happen in the us all the time...

[ChumpDumper]

So rape is all part of spreading freedom and democracy, then.

Bravo, rape apologists.

[Clandestino]

you're a fucking idiot... we're just saying that rape is a part of life.. it happens in all societies... cops in san antonio have raped citizens, but everyone doesn't say, get rid of all the cops in san antonio..

[Cant_Be_Faded]

So two out of two neocons in this thread change the subject to "rape happens here and there, rape happens in war"

basically proving what we said before neocons joined us: Neocons approve of rape.

[ChumpDumper]

No, you're a fucking idiot.

What are we trying to do over there?

What is the only exposure to the US most Iraqis have?

How do they feel about rape?

I don't expect you to answer honestly. Maybe you can try blaming the victims for showing too much cheekbone under their burkas. That's next on the rape apologist hit parade.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

you're a fucking idiot... we're just saying that rape is a part of life.. it happens in all societies... cops in san antonio have raped citizens, but everyone doesn't say, get rid of all the cops in san antonio..


You are a waste of space cuz that is totally irrelevant to us troops raping iraqi citizens.

but in neocon parlance i guess it just means "I heart bush, I heart gitmo, I'm patriotic"

[Clandestino]

So two out of two neocons in this thread change the subject to "rape happens here and there, rape happens in war"

basically proving what we said before neocons joined us: Neocons approve of rape.

learn to read..NO ONE ever said that...

[exstatic]

no shit... rapes and murders happen in the us all the time...
It's not usually the supposed keepers of order doing the rapes, though....

[Clandestino]

No, you're a fucking idiot.

What are we trying to do over there?

What is the only exposure to the US most Iraqis have?

How do they feel about rape?

I don't expect you to answer honestly. Maybe you can try blaming the victims for showing too much cheekbone under their burkas. That's next on the rape apologist hit parade.

no one likes or approves of rape... but there are bad apples in every organization...

[Clandestino]

It's not usually the supposed keepers of order doing the rapes, though....

not usually, but it does happen. by police, by priests, by ministers, by teachers...

[mookie2001]

its just like those people who die at stadium concerts, its bound to happen

[ChumpDumper]

Yeah, everybody rapes.

These Iraqis need to get over themselves and just accept foreigners raping their women.

It's no big deal.

Following that logic, we shouldn't get so upset when our soldiers are murdered by insurgents, because murders happen every day in America.

Way to go, rape and murder apologists.

[clambake]

Clan just wants to rationalize rape for all you fine people. Bang up job! Bravo!

He's saying we should clean up rape in our own country before we worry about rape elsewhere.

He says rape happens, get over it.

[Clandestino]

Clan just wants to rationalize rape for all you fine people. Bang up job! Bravo!

He's saying we should clean up rape in our own country before we worry about rape elsewhere.

He says rape happens, get over it.

we don't live in candyland fellas...yes, rape happens...

[clambake]

Thats it Clan, tell us dumb libs to pull our heads out. I commend you on your protection of our troops that have a overwhelming desire to rape. After all, if they weren't there, they wouldn't rape there. It would be here where it belongs.

[Nbadan]

They raped there so they wouldn't have to rape here?

The real scary part is the army sent this guy back to the U.S. after this incident.

[clambake]

I think we should ask nesterofish what he thinks about this. Something tells me he has an opinion on this subject.

[Clandestino]

Thats it Clan, tell us dumb libs to pull our heads out. I commend you on your protection of our troops that have a overwhelming desire to rape. After all, if they weren't there, they wouldn't rape there. It would be here where it belongs.

i am not protecting the rapists... they will be tried, i am certain, and then get raped in prison..

but we can't pull out of iraq bc a couple rapists who just happened to be soldiers... we have hundreds of thousands of military people over there working really hard and you can't pull out just bc a couple people...

[Clandestino]

also CBF, why should anyone even take anything you say seriously... it is obvious that you're just a pothead wasting your life away when you make comments like these when someone says they just bought an expensive bong


LOL seems a little excessive; why not buy a 89 cent choclate and blow a phat blunt?


Us victoria boys like to CHIEF

[Clandestino]

not to scoff though

if i had that bong i would rip the shit outta it

bet it rocks


what a waste of money

rememba when we got chodebloatedx3 in cs elpimpo, and that conservative weed dealer gave us a bong smoking lesson before he would let us touch his rooooorrr








i was like thanks jocchcchcheeejajaajaaaamm

[Cant_Be_Faded]

So a pothead can't have a political opinion?

Oh yeah, I forogt, neocon parlance---me liking weed means i automatically do nothing but smoke weed, all day, every day, and that I deserve not to be taken seriously, because neocons worship the christian god.

Gotcha.

Don't forget, you've said some pretty stupid shit on these boards in your time too--i smoke weed, what's your excuse? I didn't post that stuff in the political forum either. Psycho.

[mookie2001]

cbf doesnt even smoke anymore, he makes manny look like breal

[Cant_Be_Faded]

personally I am againts rape


and rape doesn't happen in a free american society?


no shit... rapes and murders happen in the us all the time...

Hmm, yeah dude you're intelligent, lucky for you, you never smoked weed.

[mookie2001]

i was like thanks jocchcchcheeejajaajaaaamm

ROFL

[Cant_Be_Faded]

clandestino where did you find that last quote

i dont even konw the context or the situation i was trying to describe

rofl

[clubalien]

army recruiters might even be using this as a benfit to get people to join to earn their bonus!

[Clandestino]

LOL... it was in the troll forum...where some dude was talking about his new bong...

[clambake]

I've never said we should pull our troops. Thanks to that brilliant mind we have in the white house, were stuck.

I am confident he has found a solution. Prehaps he's had another conversation with God.

He was just at graceland! Maybe he got answers from Elvis.

[clubalien]

but if we give up rape the terrorist win

remember that rape is a huge sin in the islamic world.. surely we are doing it to punish those terrorists just like flushing their holly book

[Oh, Gee!!]

no shit... rapes and murders happen in the us all the time...

and when 3 rich, white boys rape a black girl in North Carolina, you get repugs like Hannity and O-Reilly calling the victim scum and a liar.

[Ya Vez]

I believe the dems are the party that has always been accused of being soft on crime...

no death penalty, tag and release sexual predators so we respect their rights to live in a safe place... yes your democratic party at work for you...

hell they want all the POW's released from gitmo.. cause they are such nice fello's...
your democratic party at work for you....


I say frey any rapist, child molestor that gets caught..

[ChumpDumper]

I will no attempt to change ths subject since I just advocated rape as foreign policy.

[gtownspur]

Oh hey chump,

i agree with you.

Rape is a terrible thing, and the real culprit is president bush and his oil lust in the middle east.

You see if i was a marine and i found out that i had a neocon commander in cheif, i too would go on rape sprees like a silverback gorrilla. Something about having neocon president's and me wanting to have the urge to rape someone, are somehow logically connected and are a viable cause and effect. Oh the agony.

And If only john kerry was elected i could of suppressed these urges.

But let me tell you something chump.

When i become President i will outlaw rape, insurance fraud, God's wrath, and aging.

You're so wise. WHy didn't i ever listen to such a smart fuck trophy like you.

[mookie2001]

^never saw this coming


gee.// so now its bushs fault if someone gets raped????????????????

HE CANT CONTROL HURRICAINES PEOPLE!

[ChumpDumper]

I never made that connection, and you are a liar for saying so.

[gtownspur]

I never made that connection, and you are a liar for saying so.


And no one on this board is posting about the rave benefits of rape on this board nor are they aplologizing for rape, so same goes to you.

[gtownspur]

^never saw this coming


gee.// so now its bushs fault if someone gets raped????????????????

HE CANT CONTROL HURRICAINES PEOPLE!

Stick to posting about pokemon in the club forum.

Once you grow pubes on your andy milonakis body, and learn what sarcasm is, then come back.

[ChumpDumper]

They are absolutely apologists for rape and rapists. These soldiers actions so more damage where it counts than any NY Times story, yet all I get form the aplogists is "boys will be boys" and "shit happens."

[gtownspur]

They are absolutely apologists for rape and rapists. These soldiers actions so more damage where it counts than any NY Times story, yet all I get form the aplogists is "boys will be boys" and "shit happens."

I guess you are missing the context of their arguments. They are not defending the action of theses soldiers, but the fact that just because rapes occur by a few individuals, it does not unjustify or justify a whole war, neither does it damn a president.

[ChumpDumper]

The context is "it's no big deal" when it is.

[gtownspur]

The context is "it's no big deal" when it is.


No it's much deeper than that. If this thread was about rape only with no political strings attached, then you'd have a point. But theres a reason it's on this forum. ANd even me, you, xray or an illiterate illegal alien could figure out that the sole purpose of this article being posted on this forum was to poke apart the justification for war.

People have said in this forum countlessly that civilian casualties are a part of war, by that same token does that make them big proponents of genocide? No, and that's silly to think so. You're much better than that. Leave that silly thinking to the SA210's and Cbf's of the world to think that way.

[ChumpDumper]

Maybe it's the original poster's point, but it's not mine. Incidents like this really undermine the effort over there. I thought the initial invasion was a mistake -- especially the way we did it -- but we're there, that argument is over, and I've never advocated cut and run.

This is happeneing now.

[gtownspur]

Maybe it's the original poster's point, but it's not mine. Incidents like this really undermine the effort over there. I thought the initial invasion was a mistake -- especially the way we did it -- but we're there, that argument is over, and I've never advocated cut and run.

This is happeneing now.


Maybe? :lol

Please.

Sooo,, that's not you're point. in that case no one here is arguing with you. Rape is bad, and we believe that the troops who did this should be prosecuted. No one here is advocating that they get promoted for their behavior.

[ChumpDumper]

in that case no one here is arguing with you.Of course they were. Don't apologize for the apologists.

[gtownspur]

Of course they were. Don't apologize for the apologists.


OMg. You're right they are apologist. I didn't realize that until you said they were apoligist. So it must be true. :spin

[mike detroit]

I oppose beheadings

[sabar]

Big deal, it happens. When will the left realize that the actions of 4 people don't represent all the morons on the right. And the other way around. It's so funny seeing all the stuff you all spout. Apparently scandalous Clinton represents all democrats and drug Limbaugh and demented soldiers represent the entire GOP. I'd like to be on the front pages around the world if I was murdered, but apparently there has to be some non-existant political connection for that to happen.

[jochhejaam]

I oppose beheadings
OMGosh, now we have an apologist for beheadings!

:spin

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Yeah, everybody rapes.

These Iraqis need to get over themselves and just accept foreigners raping their women.

It's no big deal.

Following that logic, we shouldn't get so upset when our soldiers are murdered by insurgents, because murders happen every day in America.

Way to go, rape and murder apologists.

Well said.

As a Muslim, opening this thread I was not expecting people to begin attempting to justify this shit. I just hope this is some part of your e-personality you just need to express somehow to get a reaction and not how you guys genuinely feel.


These little 4-man hit squads who execute families in front of there kids, and now these rapes where it's said the soldies "saw the women and noticed her on pervious routes". That's just sick.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Big deal, it happens. When will the left realize that the actions of 4 people don't represent all the morons on the right. And the other way around. It's so funny seeing all the stuff you all spout. Apparently scandalous Clinton represents all democrats and drug Limbaugh and demented soldiers represent the entire GOP. I'd like to be on the front pages around the world if I was murdered, but apparently there has to be some non-existant political connection for that to happen.

Four people?

Starting with those pics leaked, to the events in recent weeks...I would so it's more than just 4 renegade soldiers. Keep in mind these are only the stories that arent' covered up...I don't even want to think how much of this shit happens that people never hear about.

[Clandestino]

The context is "it's no big deal" when it is.

neither one of us ever said that... you don't read what people say, you just spout off shit you hear or read no matter what is said...

[Clandestino]

Four people?

Starting with those pics leaked, to the events in recent weeks...I would so it's more than just 4 renegade soldiers. Keep in mind these are only the stories that arent' covered up...I don't even want to think how much of this shit happens that people never hear about.


yes, every single soldier in iraq is bad... and all the pows are model citizens...

[xrayzebra]

Well said.

As a Muslim, opening this thread I was not expecting people to begin attempting to justify this shit. I just hope this is some part of your e-personality you just need to express somehow to get a reaction and not how you guys genuinely feel.


These little 4-man hit squads who execute families in front of there kids, and now these rapes where it's said the soldies "saw the women and noticed her on pervious routes". That's just sick.


First, I want to say something. I do not condone, nor does anyone on
this forum condone what was done to the woman and her family by some
criminals. The military is a part of society, just like everyone on this
board is.

But I find it interesting that you want to condemn American Soldiers but
at the same time do not condemn the Muslims that have killed
hundreds and thousands of people of their own faith and yours I might
add. I would assume you are not part of the groups of Muslims that
are doing these deeds. If you aren't, then you are too in their sights.
Of course a roadside bomb or car bomb does not ask of what religion or
sect of a religion you are before it kills you. It doesn't ask your age, sex
or anything else. It kills. Now would you propose that those who plant
those bombs are criminals, terrorist and outright thugs or just good
Muslims protecting their country? And one other question. What
country to they represent?

[Ya Vez]

Can you say Sharia Justice... I am sure the left is happy about it..

If a woman brings shame to the family--through allegations of premarital or extramarital sex, by refusing an arranged marriage, or attempting to obtain a divorce--her male relatives are bound by duty and culture to murder her.
"Honor is everything," says Ahmed, a 52-year-old Palestinian Muslim. "If a person loses his honor, he becomes like an animal."

... In the Palestinian communities of the West Bank, Gaza Strip, Israel, and Jordan, women are executed in their homes, in open fields, and occasionally in public, sometimes before crowds of cheering onlookers. Honor killings account for virtually all of the murders of Palestinian women in these areas.
Honor killings occur for a variety of offenses, including allegations of premarital or extramarital sex, refusing an arranged marriage, attempting to obtain a divorce, or simply talking with a man. If a woman brings shame to the family, her male relatives are bound by duty and culture to kill her. "A woman shamed is like rotting flesh," a Palestinian merchant tells me. "If it is not cut away, it will consume the body. What I mean is the whole family will be tainted if she is not killed."
...A sixteen-year-old Palestinian girl became pregnant after being raped by her younger brother. Once her condition became known, her family encouraged her older brother to kill her to remove the blemish from their honor. Her brothers, the rapist and the murderer, were exonerated. The girl was blamed. "She made a mistake," said one of her male cousins. "She had to pay for it."

[Ya Vez]

oh yeah here is a great article in national geographic about how women are treated in some muslim countries...

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/02/0212_020212_honorkilling.html

[ChumpDumper]

Nothing like an attempt to change the subject to pass the time.

[xrayzebra]

Well said.

As a Muslim, opening this thread I was not expecting people to begin attempting to justify this shit. I just hope this is some part of your e-personality you just need to express somehow to get a reaction and not how you guys genuinely feel.


These little 4-man hit squads who execute families in front of there kids, and now these rapes where it's said the soldies "saw the women and noticed her on pervious routes". That's just sick.


Just went back and read the opening post on this thread. Are you saying
you started the thread.

You say: "As a Muslim, opening this thread I was not expecting people to begin attempting to justify this shit."

Are you saying you are nbadan? And posting under another name? Just
what is your meaning? Something doesn't compute here.

[ChumpDumper]

open = click on and read

[xrayzebra]

^^Chump what are you talking about? Doesn't make sense.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

First, I want to say something. I do not condone, nor does anyone on
this forum condone what was done to the woman and her family by some
criminals. The military is a part of society, just like everyone on this
board is.

But I find it interesting that you want to condemn American Soldiers but
at the same time do not condemn the Muslims that have killed
hundreds and thousands of people of their own faith and yours I might
add. I would assume you are not part of the groups of Muslims that
are doing these deeds. If you aren't, then you are too in their sights.
Of course a roadside bomb or car bomb does not ask of what religion or
sect of a religion you are before it kills you. It doesn't ask your age, sex
or anything else. It kills. Now would you propose that those who plant
those bombs are criminals, terrorist and outright thugs or just good
Muslims protecting their country? And one other question. What
country to they represent?

I'm glad you don't condone rape, neither do I.

This isn't a debate about whether the war is just. It's about justifying rape. To reply to your "military is a society"...sure it is one held to a higher standard. That's why they have there own courts, thats why they have special training.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Just went back and read the opening post on this thread. Are you saying
you started the thread.

You say: "As a Muslim, opening this thread I was not expecting people to begin attempting to justify this shit."

Are you saying you are nbadan? And posting under another name? Just
what is your meaning? Something doesn't compute here.

What?

No, I'm not him. I meant "when I opened this thread" as in "when I opened this thread" as in...when I clicked the little title and this thread opened.

[mookie2001]

now dont get me wrong...
rape is bad

[xrayzebra]

I'm glad you don't condone rape, neither do I.

This isn't a debate about whether the war is just. It's about justifying rape. To reply to your "military is a society"...sure it is one held to a higher standard. That's why they have there own courts, thats why they have special training.

I find it very interesting that you think the military should be held to a
"higher standard". Higher than who. The public in general? Society?
How is that so?

Then you turn around and say that this is about justifying rape. Well you
made the statement that you were Muslim. Okay, justify them doing what
they do. Is rape more offensive than sawing off some one's head from their
shoulders. By a Muslim, no less. Maybe no one of your sect. But a
Muslim nevertheless. Now you tell me that the Military are above the
normal standard. Is a devout Muslim above the normal standard? Should
they be held to the normal standard? You know like, if you capture
someone you treat them humanely. Like give them a Saint James version
of the bible and bacon and eggs for breakfast. You know Christians eat
pork.

You sir, seem to be avoiding the questions I would like to ask a Muslim.


Oh and by the way, the military doesn't have their own courts because
they have higher standards, it is because they have different laws to
adher to than civilians. In civilian life you can't be punished for telling
the boss to stuff it.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I find it very interesting that you think the military should be held to a
"higher standard". Higher than who. The public in general? Society?
How is that so?

Then you turn around and say that this is about justifying rape. Well you
made the statement that you were Muslim. Okay, justify them doing what
they do. Is rape more offensive than sawing off some one's head from their
shoulders. By a Muslim, no less. Maybe no one of your sect. But a
Muslim nevertheless. Now you tell me that the Military are above the
normal standard. Is a devout Muslim above the normal standard? Should
they be held to the normal standard? You know like, if you capture
someone you treat them humanely. Like give them a Saint James version
of the bible and bacon and eggs for breakfast. You know Christians eat
pork.

You sir, seem to be avoiding the questions I would like to ask a Muslim.


Oh and by the way, the military doesn't have their own courts because
they have higher standards, it is because they have different laws to
adher to than civilians. In civilian life you can't be punished for telling
the boss to stuff it.

You claim murder is common in society.

I said the military shouldn't be compared to "society" because it is held to higher standards. In fact, most sociologists will tell you that the military is a subculture.


Why should I have to justify beheadings? What kind of retarded argument is that. I have my own opinions on the war, but this isn't the forum to discuss it. This is about a women who got raped, and similar instances that have been brought to light recently....why do you keep distracting the focus from that?

I'm not avoiding anything, other than your feeble attempts to display your agenda in a forum that has nothing to do with it. Make a new thread, call it "why I hate muslims" and I'll be glad to discuss it with you there.

[xrayzebra]

You claim murder is common in society.

I said the military shouldn't be compared to "society" because it is held to higher standards. In fact, most sociologists will tell you that the military is a subculture.


Why should I have to justify beheadings? What kind of retarded argument is that. I have my own opinions on the war, but this isn't the forum to discuss it. This is about a women who got raped, and similar instances that have been brought to light recently....why do you keep distracting the focus from that?

I'm not avoiding anything, other than your feeble attempts to display your agenda in a forum that has nothing to do with it. Make a new thread, call it "why I hate muslims" and I'll be glad to discuss it with you there.


Typical. You start one that explains your outrage for those that
do the things they do in the name of Allah. Okay.

Otherwise, you knew the answer about rape by anyone. No one
condones it.

I didn't ask you to justify beheadings. How in the world could you.
Maybe for those that raped others. But for just being someone. You
tell me. It is your religion. Not mine.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Typical. You start one that explains your outrage for those that
do the things they do in the name of Allah. Okay.

Otherwise, you knew the answer about rape by anyone. No one
condones it.

I didn't ask you to justify beheadings. How in the world could you.
Maybe for those that raped others. But for just being someone. You
tell me. It is your religion. Not mine.

Why do I get the feeling English is not your first language.

I have no idea what you just said, when I do...and it's relevant to this topic (raping women, and how people in this thread seem to think it was ok) then I'll reply to it.


www.esl.com

[Nbadan]

Details Emerge in Alleged Army Rape, Killings
By Ellen Knickmeyer
Washington Post Foreign Service
Monday, July 3, 2006; A15


BAGHDAD, July 2 -- Fifteen-year-old Abeer Qasim Hamza was afraid, her mother confided in a neighbor. As pretty as she was young, the girl had attracted the unwelcome attention of U.S. soldiers manning a checkpoint that the girl had to pass through almost daily in their village in the south-central city of Mahmudiyah, her mother told the neighbor.

Abeer told her mother again and again in her last days that the soldiers had made advances toward her, a neighbor, Omar Janabi, said this weekend, recounting a conversation he said he had with the girl's mother, Fakhriyah, on March 10. Fakhriyah feared that the Americans might come for her daughter at night, at their home. She asked her neighbor if Abeer might sleep at his house, with the women there.

Janabi said he agreed. Then, "I tried to reassure her, remove some of her fear," Janabi said. "I told her, the Americans would not do such a thing." ...

Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/02/AR2006070200673.html)

[Please_dont_ban_me]

15 years old?


Wow. Sick bastards.

[mookie2001]

there are bastards in America too

that doesnt mean Bush is responsible

[Please_dont_ban_me]

there are bastards in America too

that doesnt mean Bush is responsible

If this was a court of law in the states, he woud be responsible.

Obviously he won't be...but generally speaking if you begin a chain of reactions that lead to somebody's death/murder/robbery...you can (and most often are) held responsible.


Example, drunk driving. Also...manufacturers of faulty products which will people.

[Ya Vez]

don't forget individual responsibility... if you get in car drunk and run over a family... excuse me .. it's YOU who made those choices... not the president not your mayor, police chief, or city councilman ... YOU made that choice... YOU will be held responsible for that... as for those soldiers that made that choice... THEY will face the consequences and I hope they are severe...

[jochhejaam]

Preliminary information in the military investigation put the age of the alleged rape victim at 20, rather than 15, as reported by her neighbors, officials and hospital records and officials in Mahmudiyah.

Either way the perpetrators are the lowest common denominator of human life but the age of the victim stokes my ill feelings towards them.

Is there anyone on this board against the death penalty that would care to make a one time exception?

[xrayzebra]

If this was a court of law in the states, he woud be responsible.

Obviously he won't be...but generally speaking if you begin a chain of reactions that lead to somebody's death/murder/robbery...you can (and most often are) held responsible.


Example, drunk driving. Also...manufacturers of faulty products which will people.

And you are the same person that accused me of getting off topic.

Example: Using religion to justify beheading someone. They are still
responsible for murder. Right?

[boutons_]

Former soldier "honorably discharged but with personality problems" is the first and only soldier charged as of Monday afternoon.

Could be the first step in using him as scapegoat, and whitewashing the others.

Based on all the other punishments handed out by the military in Iraq for misconduct, why would that possibility come to mind?

[xrayzebra]

Former soldier "honorably discharged but with personality problems" is the first and only soldier charged as of Monday afternoon.

Could be the first step in using him as scapegoat, and whitewashing the others.

Based on all the other punishments handed out by the military in Iraq for misconduct, why would that possibility come to mind?

Oh, I don't think so. I suspect you will see some death sentences come
out of this.

I am sure that will make you so very, very, happy.

They did what they did, they deserve everything they get. So don't paint
all our GI's with a big brush. We all know how you support the troops.

[chode_regulator]

This isn't a surprise. Remember when they had a pile of naked half dead iraqis and a lesbian dykie ass marine was pointing at them, laughing at them, and the picture was leaked? Don't hear about that anymore, but now 3 years later we're hearing about rape....you all know this shit has been going down since day 1 of occupation.

hahahaha, i wonder if any dirty neocons really do defend rape.
that dumb cunt was in the army

[young_prosecutor]

that girl was pretty butch.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

And you are the same person that accused me of getting off topic.

Example: Using religion to justify beheading someone. They are still
responsible for murder. Right?

Where did I justify beheadings?

Why are you comparing beheadings to this rape? Quit spewing your personal agenda in a thread that's about a 15 year old girl that got raped.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Is impossible to take please dont ban me seriously with such an incredibly realistic avatar.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Is impossible to take please dont ban me seriously with such an incredibly realistic avatar.

Nice to be able to use your own pic, isn't it. :elephant

[Cant_Be_Faded]

your first one was odd, your second one was realistically odd, and your next one just looks weird


you look like Duff looking at his cock

[Please_dont_ban_me]

your first one was odd, your second one was realistically odd, and your next one just looks weird


you look like Duff looking at his cock

Do you make a habit of analyzing other guy's avatars?

[George Gervin's Afro]

We must all remember what dumbya has said.."we fight for our freedom in Iraq"..although I have still not been able to reconcile Iraq and our freedom...I guess I hate America for not CLEARLY seeing the correllation

[turambar85]

If this was a court of law in the states, he woud be responsible.

Obviously he won't be...but generally speaking if you begin a chain of reactions that lead to somebody's death/murder/robbery...you can (and most often are) held responsible.


Example, drunk driving. Also...manufacturers of faulty products which will people.

Ok, I dislike Bush as much as the next guy, and the thought of him being tried and/or impeached is very high on my things I would like to see happen list.

However, to say that the reason he should be tried is not because of the illegal war that he started, or the wiretapping, or the constant breaches on constitutional limits of power, or the lying about reasons for the war......but because a few soldier happen to be sick, twisted bastards?

Sure soldiers should be expected to behave better than normal citizens because they are not normal citizens. They are supposedly the few, the proud, the ELITE, but there will always be a small percentage that does the unspeakable. That does not taint the rest of the men and women trying to do whats right.

Perhaps they are on edge because they are stuck in a war with no end in sight, which 90% of the world disagrees with, but that is simply irrelevant.

If Bush had instead sent the troops into Darfur to help with the situation there, but a couple troops raped or plundered it would not be his fault. You can make the claim that the commander in charge of these troops is to be blamed, but going all the way back to Bush would be irresponsible.

Again, there is enough to try him on without making outrageous claims such as that.

[Nbadan]

http://www.charlotte.com/images/charlotte/charlotte/14959/223771934303.jpg

PATRICK SCHNEIDER/Observer Staff


Former Army soldier Steven D. Green (center) is escorted by U.S. Marshals from United States Federal Courthouse in Charlotte Monday after making his first court appearance. Green has been accused of raping an Iraqi woman, then shooting her with an AK-47 on March 12 in Mahmudiyah, Iraq. Green is now being held in the Mecklenburg County jail in Charlotte.


<snip>

Green, 21, is accused of going to a home in Mahmudiyah, Iraq with three other soliders on March 12, shooting three people inside, including a child, and then raping a woman before also killing her.Green was honorably discharged because of a personality disorder before military officials knew of the incident. If convicted in the killings, he could face the death penalty.FBI agents arrested Green in Asheville on Friday. It's not clear where he had been living, but he attended a funeral for a fellow soldier in Arlington, Va., recently.

<snip>

The Iraqi woman's body was found in the house with three other bodies. According to documents unsealed this morning, other soldiers told military counselors during a combat stress debriefing about the attack. According to the documents, the soldiers, members of the 101st Airborne Division out of Fort Campbell, Ky., saw the woman during a traffic patrol. They told another soldier to monitor the radio while they went to the home.

While there, Green went into a bedroom with the woman's three family members and an AK-47 and closed the door. They heard gunshots and when he emerged, he said: "I just killed them, all are dead," according to the documents.

Then he and another soldier raped the woman. Afterwards, Green shot her in the head 2-3 times, soldiers told investigators.

The soldiers threw the AK-47, which was already in the house when they arrived, in a canal across the street. The woman's body was found burned, the documents said.

Charlotte (http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/news/breaking_news/14958914.htm)

Since when is a 15-year old a woman?

[ChumpDumper]

Every house in Iraq has an AK-47.

It's like indoor plumbing here.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

this was the house
http://www.viptx.net/museum/McNamara%20House_files/McNamara-House.jpg

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

if anyone can figure out why this is so funny...PROPS

[RobinsontoDuncan]

I was wondering how long it would take to have this thread hijacked by Xray and the other war appologists on this board.

Well after many failed attempts on the first two pages you guys finally succeded.

There is an interesting dynamic that happens in this thread though, the topic starts as a forum to vent frustration about the horrible acts of a some of the troops in Iraq (the second known incident of such abuse, the other being Abu Garab). I think there is a general undertone of condemnation of the war from the start, I mean any action is judged by the end result, and in this case if you weigh the costs versus the benefits for the Iraqi people, Im sure it looks like Gulf War II is a failure.

Then we start having Xray force dont ban me to defend beheadings and honor killings? Right well while you're at it dont ban me, before we can discuss what our military is doing to the people in Iraq you have an obligation, as a Muslium, to defend feet binding and the genital mutilation of women. WTF are you guys serious? How do beheadings and honor killings have anything to do with what happened here?

Im sure we can all agree the middle east is pretty fucked up for women already, so that means it's kosher for us to invade and make it worse? What the fuck kind of logic is that? dont ban me doesn't have to defend the actions of other Musliums to be outraged at this kind of thing. I mean I'm not asking you (insert thread hijacker's name) to defend the actions of people who bomb abortion clinincs and kill doctors before you can discuss abortion rights. No.

Rape is wrong, and it's exactly this kind of minimilizing (shit happens) that allows it to continue. You dont honestly think that this is the only such case of rape in Iraq do you? Hell no. When it comes down to it, that kind of attitude is shit, this is disgusting and I am morally appalled it happened and these soldiers just sent the WRONG message to the world.

In a culture like ours that props up big guns and rampant masculinity (in other words "let your dick do your thinking for you") what can you expect of the most "macho" men in your society? I think the first step in solving this kind of behavior is to stop minimalizing and take this for what it is, an act of barbarism.

[Allan Rowe vs Wade]

this was the house
http://www.viptx.net/museum/McNamara%20House_files/McNamara-House.jpg
when you bring up the McNamara House, you know the thread has gone south.

[ObiwanGinobili]

this was the house
http://www.viptx.net/museum/McNamara%20House_files/McNamara-House.jpg

I can't believe you posted the McNamara house....

[RandomGuy]

http://www.workingforchange.com/webgraphics/WFC/TMW06-07-06.jpg

[Ocotillo]

Ugh!??!

The disaster here beyond what happened to the young woman and her family is the terrible public relations that result from this. If you support what we are doing (or attempting to do) in Iraq, winning hearts and minds of the people are imperative. This sets that back more than a NYT article or Cindy Sheehan or Jack Murtha or whatever the right is bellyaching about at the moment.

I don't know that I saw anywhere in the thread that anyone said Bush was at fault for this but the resident right wingers sprung into action right away accusing people of doing just that.

If you want to look at a gray area or nuance, the limited information that is out there seems to indicate the Army thought this fellow had some emotional issues. It speaks to the type of people the Army is compelled to settle for as the war grows more and more unpopular. But even that is not the point of the thread.

The point is the stated goal of the Codpiece in Chief is set back by this criminal act.

How long before Rush comes out with a "I raped an Iraqi girl and all I got was this lousy t-shirt" t-shirt?

[xrayzebra]

^^OMG, what a bunch of BS. Cant you bring on a better argument that the
above.

[ChumpDumper]

The disaster here beyond what happened to the young woman and her family is the terrible public relations that result from this. If you support what we are doing (or attempting to do) in Iraq, winning hearts and minds of the people are imperative. This sets that back more than a NYT article or Cindy Sheehan or Jack Murtha or whatever the right is bellyaching about at the moment.Yeah, no one addressed this when I brought it up last week.

[Yonivore]

Yeah, no one addressed this when I brought it up last week.
You know, whenever you put a few hundred thousand people together, crimes will be committed. Without knowing the facts in this case, I am willing to say, with complete certainty, that the military will hold a trial and if convicted, the man will be punished...just like with Abu Ghraib and other misdeeds. Justice will out.

Can the same be said of our enemy?

[ChumpDumper]

Still hasn't been addressed.

You just parrotted the same "rape happens" argument.

Congratulations.

[Yonivore]

Still hasn't been addressed.

You just parrotted the same "rape happens" argument.

Congratulations.
No, I forwarded the "justice happens" argument.

[ChumpDumper]

And failed to address anything I brought up.

[Spurminator]

Sad how predictable the national response to this is...

Excuse-making/downplaying vs. Scoreboarding disguised as concern and/or moral outrage

Hard to pick a side when they're both full of shit. I choose Self-Righteous Detachment.

[Yonivore]

And failed to address anything I brought up.
Who failed to address anything you brought up?

[gtownspur]

Sad how predictable the national response to this is...

Excuse-making/downplaying vs. Scoreboarding disguised as concern and/or moral outrage

Hard to pick a side when they're both full of shit. I choose Self-Righteous Detachment.

I believe this whole topic has too much of a political taint in it that it is hard to actually have a clean discussion about it.

But to parade here and have moral indignation about rape and act as if you're the only one that is disgusted by rape, screams of big bullshit.

The people here devoting their time and posting idiotic comments, as well as moronic cartoons like The modern world, have a precise political agenda.

DOes this setback the war? Yes, to other countries who have no stake in this and are against, or passively indifferent about our war on terror. But not to us, who have our own country men figthing.

The reasons disapproving the war should be reasons like, planning, reason for initiating, and other sound arguments which pertain to how our commander in cheif is handling the war.

But to now parade a nut who fell out of line and rally behind this "OMG, he committed rape, War be damned! " Bullshit and moral outrage, is silly and dishonest.

Would some of these truly outraged people then also conclude to the following;

1. Because Bill Clinton was also accused of rape, should have we automatically have judged him and impeached him on the seriousness of the charge and not the evidence.

2. Because Kobe Bryant was accused for raping a girl, did that stop any of you clowns from watching the NBA. After all, one could make the argument that the special celebrity status awarded to Nba Players, and the excesses that come with being overpayed, do lead to a "i'm above the law" attitude.

3.If the rape had occured in afghanistan on the pursuit of OBL, does that make the hunt for OBL discreditted.


These are the type of conclusions one must lead to if they fall on this whole "One Rape Crime discredits the war Effort" argument.

Chump, no one here is excusing rape. In fact everyone here, even Xray, believes that this guy should be punished if found guilty.

We are defending the war effort, and not the perpetrator. And you know this, but are too busy trying to up one on all of us "right wingers". Sad, wish you were more honest.


But i ask you this, had this been a girl who was raped in the states, would of that incident lead to this many responses on this board?

Or is an Iraqi rape victim more valuable than an american rape victim?

[ChumpDumper]

DOes this setback the war? Yes, to other countries who have no stake in this and are against, or passively indifferent about our war on terror. But not to us, who have our own country men figthing.So this HELPS our effort in Iarq?
But i ask you this, had this been a girl who was raped in the states, would of that incident lead to this many responses on this board?Had she been raped by a soldier from a country occupying our land? Yes.

My whole focus has been on how this effects the situation in Iraq.

[gtownspur]

So this HELPS our effort in Iarq?Had she been raped by a soldier from a country occupying our land? Yes.

I meant to say in the last sentence that it shouldn't be a setback.

[gtownspur]

So this HELPS our effort in Iarq?Had she been raped by a soldier from a country occupying our land? Yes.

My whole focus has been on how this effects the situation in Iraq.

That's a silly scenario to compare to. If you are arguing wether this incident should affect us supporting the war.

Regardless, most of the iRaqi's still want us there for economic gain.

[gtownspur]

No minds will be made up on this war becuase of a fuck up who raped a girl.

[ChumpDumper]

That's a silly scenario to compare to.I agree it's silly to expect us to talk about individual rapes in the US.
If you are arguing wether this incident should affect us supporting the war.I'm not.
Regardless, most of the iRaqi's still want us there for economic gain.Is there a poll for that? I haven't seen it. Honest question - I know there have been polls.

[ChumpDumper]

No minds will be made up on this war becuase of a fuck up who raped a girl.In Iraq? Definitely.

There are thousands of Okinawans and Koreans who want us out of their countries for the exact same reason. Bush always said that we were staying in the country at the pleasure of the Iraqi government. Enough incidents like that and they might just kick us out before we should go. It is a democracy after all, right?

[gtownspur]

I agree it's silly to expect us to talk about individual rapes in the US.I'm not.Is there a poll for that? I haven't seen it. Honest question - I know there have been polls.

I would think they would want them there because their elected representatives insist we stay, and also due to the fact that 75% of iraq is SHiite and are supportive of our efforts to eradicate the sunni extremist.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm looking for the polls. I doubt there is a tracking poll, but I've seen others.