Pistons offer Wallace 4-year, $48 million deal

[ducks]

Pistons offer Wallace 4-year, $48 million deal
Sunday, July 02, 2006

UPDATE: Adds contract figure and reworks lede

By A. Sherrod Blakely

AUBURN HILLS -- The Detroit Pistons got the ball rolling on negotiations with Ben Wallace on Saturday, offering the unrestricted free agent a four-year contract worth $48 million.

In presenting the proposed deal to Wallace's agent, Arn Tellum, Detroit offered Wallace a contract that would make him the highest-paid player in Pistons history.

Tellum was one of the few agents the Pistons spoke with on Saturday, the first day of free agency in the NBA. That's because the Pistons have to determine whether they can re-sign Wallace, a four-time All-Star, before they pursue other free agents.

Aware of the Pistons' priority regarding Wallace, agents didn't expect a call back from Detroit on Saturday.

Bill Duffy represents several of the more prominent free agents this summer, such as ex-Piston Mike James, Drew Gooden, Fred Jones, Michael Olowokandi (who played for Pistons coach Flip Saunders in Minnesota), and Speedy Claxton, who Joe Dumars, Detroit's president of basketball operations, is interested in.

"Joe's inundated with Ben Wallace right now," said Duffy, who also represents Pistons forward Tayshaun Prince. "That's where his focus is right now. We agents understand that."

Dumars' commitment to taking care of his own players, Duffy said, is among reasons other players are attracted to Detroit.

"That's one of his children, so you can understand why that's something Joe is really focusing in on right now," said Duffy, referring to Wallace. "He knows that part of the appeal to coming to Detroit is playing with Ben Wallace."

Still, William Phillips, who represents Bonzi Wells, said he was contacted by the Pistons regarding Wells.

A former Pistons draft pick, Wells had a great playoff series for Sacramento this spring. Although the Kings lost their first-round series in six games to the San Antonio Spurs, Wells was arguably the series' best player. The 6-foot-5 guard averaged 23.2 points and 12 rebounds per game while shooting 60.9 percent from the field in the series.

The Pistons may be willing to offer Wells a multi-year contract that would start at the mid-level exception, which should be about $5 million next season. However, because of Wells' strong postseason, other teams may be willing to pay him more than that.

Another player the Pistons may pursue later this summer as a backup point guard is ex-Piston Chucky Atkins. They also could re-sign Tony Delk or Lindsey Hunter.

http://www.mlive.com/pistons/storie...5110.xml&coll=1

[himat]

I have not heard an official amount of money Chicago has ofered only rumors.

[Gummi]

As great as Ben is he's not worth that esp. at his age. He's turning 32 in september. I think he's a $8-9 million a season player not $12 million like the Pistons offered him. Chicago is not going to offer him more then the Pistons so he'll most likely stay in Detroit.

[himat]

As great as Ben is he's not worth that esp. at his age. He's turning 32 in september. I think he's a $8-9 million a season player not $12 million like the Pistons offered him. Chicago is not going to offer him more then the Pistons so he'll most likely stay in Detroit.

I wish you were right. chicago might offer Ben a 5 year 75 million dollar contract
:depressed .

[polandprzem]

I wish you were right. chicago might offer Ben a 5 year 75 million dollar contract
:depressed .

:wtf

realy?

Amazing! But even if - I think Benman wants to be in a team that can win a championship. Chicago will not be a contender even with him on the lineup so probabaly he will stay with the old friends.
75 milions?! :wow

[clubalien]

we need bulls to sign ben
so that we can get joel from portland
ben leaving hurts pistons but helps a young bulls team alot

[exstatic]

I wish you were right. chicago might offer Ben a 5 year 75 million dollar contract
:depressed .
They will regret that every day after one or two years. What a lot of people don't realize is that Chicago has a ton of caproom, but they have several good young players to pay in the next year or two, like Gordon, Noccioni, and Deng. If they can get the Brown/Smith trade done with the Hornets and dump Chandler's deal, that makes this more doable, since Brown's $8M will come off the cap next summer.

[Bob Lanier]

Chicago will not be a contender even with him on the lineup so probabaly he will stay with the old friends.
Yes, they would. And more importantly, the Pistons wouldn't be a contender with him in their lineup.

[FreshPrince22]

That's fair. He's probably worth closer to 40 million on the court, but I'll gladly spend the extra 8 Mil to have another go at it the next few years.

That said, I expect Chicago to offer in the 4 year / 60 mil range.

[clubalien]

and mami heat will regret trading odom for an out of shapped over payed shaq?

then again I am sure it was wade that won the finals nto shaq.

[Bruno]

That said, I expect Chicago to offer in the 4 year / 60 mil range.

Me too.

Bulls : $60M/4 years.
Pistons : $48M/4 years.

My guess is that Pistons will raise their offer at $52M or $56M and that Ben will re-sign with them.

[clubalien]

another positive if pistons lose ben wallace is their defense will get worse so maybe we will stop hearing DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD triot basketballllllllllll

[polandprzem]

Yes, they would. And more importantly, the Pistons wouldn't be a contender with him in their lineup.

Chicago a contender?

:jack

[Ariel]

Chicago will not be a contender even with him on the lineup so probabaly he will stay with the old friends.
Not only would they be contenders, but they'd probably be the favorites to come out of the East. They'd be taking Ben away from the Pistons with no compensation, and I don't think the Pistons can afford to lose him and still contend.

Just remember they gave the Heat a very tough series, taking two games and pushing a few others to the limit. They match-up well with Miami: they have one of, if not the player who best guards Wade in Kirk Hinrich, and they're supposedly adding Ben, who will help a great deal with Shaq... as will time going by. Also, they have exploited the PF spot perfectly with Nocioni taking a sizable advantage over Haslem and Walker.

They have an excellent young team, overflowing with youth, athleticism and talent, and they're filling the holes to their team quite well. I love their moves. And it doesn't end there: They're stockpiling talent to pursue a trade for a star. Just take a look at their roster:

PG: Hinrich / Duhon
SG: Sefolosha / Gordon
SF: Deng / Nocioni / Khryapa
PF: Chandler / Tyrus Thomas / Mike Sweetney
C: Ben Wallace?

Say they package Chandler, one of Deng or Nocioni, Gordon and Duhon. With that many assets, they can realistically target basically any star around, like say Jermaine O'Neal.

If the Bulls get Ben Wallace, not only are they coming, they're doing so faster than anyone realizes.

[FreshPrince22]

PG: Hinrich / Duhon
SG: Sefolosha / Gordon
SF: Deng / Nocioni / Khryapa
PF: Chandler / Tyrus Thomas / Mike Sweetney
C: Ben Wallace?
Sefolosha starting over Ben Gordon? :lol

[Ariel]

Sefolosha starting over Ben Gordon? :lol
If the matchups are right, yes. That's who Skiles is. They've been looking for a big defensive SG for a long time, and if Sefolosha is up to the task, there is a very good chance he's matched up against starting 2s, and Ben Gordon is used as a super sixth man, finishing the games.

In fact, I don't know why you would be surprised, Skiles specifically addressed this on several different occasions, so...

[himat]

:flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff :flipoff
The Bulls!

[T Park]

If the Bulls took Ben away from Detroit.

It would be one of the biggest power shifts since Shaq got traded to Miami.

Devastating IMO to the Pistons.


Heres the question.

Would the Pistons then be interested in a sign and trade for say, aaaa Carlos Delfino? :)

[Kori Ellis]

Here's a long thread already talking about this in the NBA Forum, in case anyone is interested.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showthread.php?t=45184

[JamStone]

we need bulls to sign ben
so that we can get joel from portland
ben leaving hurts pistons but helps a young bulls team alot


If Ben signs with the Bulls, Detroit might go after Joel Przybilla as well. And, they can offer the same thing as the Spurs, a chance to start on a championship caliber team for the full MLE. So, while Chicago signing Ben might put the Bulls out of the bidding war for Przybilla, it also brings Detroit into the biddig war.

[T Park]

it also brings Detroit into the biddig war

?

Equal pay is a "bidding war" ?

[clubalien]

we can compete with someone offering the same money because he woudl perfer to be here then detriot riot pistons

[FreshPrince22]

If the matchups are right, yes. That's who Skiles is. They've been looking for a big defensive SG for a long time, and if Sefolosha is up to the task, there is a very good chance he's matched up against starting 2s, and Ben Gordon is used as a super sixth man, finishing the games.

In fact, I don't know why you would be surprised, Skiles specifically addressed this on several different occasions, so...

Paxson and Skiles have both said that Gordon is the starter.

[rayray2k8]

Thats great...

[Ariel]

Paxson and Skiles have both said that Gordon is the starter.
Quote? I've read most Bulls articles around, and I've never read anything of the sort. All the opposite, in fact. I remember Skiles suggesting that maybe that's who Gordon is (a sixth man), when asked for the thousand time about starting him. Unfortunately I can't quite get a hold on the article, but I'll come up with it eventually.

But let's go to the facts.. Ben Gordon has started in 50 games of a total 162 in his two years in the league. The starting backcourt roles were given, for much of those seasons, to Duhon and Hinrich. If he's willing to disrupt his team by playing 2 PGs with little to no offense while constantly having to adjust by having Hinrich guard opposing 2s, doesn't that tell you anything? What is the point in having a supposedly sure starter, as you claim they say, come off the bench, when the alternative is clearly far from perfect?

It should also be noticed that, for the most part, those starts had much more to do with not having any other natural scorer on the team than with Ben himself. Eddy Curry on the Bulls would have solidified the trend, but Skiles at times needed to throw him in there just because he had no choice as first quarters droughts were becoming impossible to sustain.

Skiles has shown over time that he doesn't envision Gordon as a starter, but as a game changer through his instant offense. If Sefolosha is half decent, he'll take over the starting spot in no time, allowing Skiles to field an ortodox backcourt, and using Ben the way he means to, off the bench.

[JamStone]

?

Equal pay is a "bidding war" ?


Ummm, yeah. It would be a bidding war if both teams can offer "UP TO" the MLE. Good negotiators won't start off with their bottomline offer. So, in this example, if both the Spurs and Pistons were pursuing to sign Joel Przybilla, and both teams could only go as far as the MLE for five years, maybe the Spurs start off with a tender offer of $3.5 million per year for three years. Then the Pistons offer $4 million for four years. And, so on and so forth up to the max each team could offer if it's worth it to each respective team.

Just because both teams can offer him the same pay, it doesn't mean each team will start off with that offer. Negotiations generally start off with preliminary offers to get things rolling. Now, there are plenty of instances and examples where there is only one offer which is fair to both sides and a deal is made. But, especially when teams are aware that other teams are also interested, NBA GMs will play the negotiating game. And, even if there is a ceiling to what a team can offer in terms of money, there can still be a bidding war.

And, also, as I check, if the Pistons don't re-sign Ben Wallace and don't do a sign-and-trade, the Pistons will be under the cap. They possibly could offer Przybilla more money that the Spurs.

I don't know if the Pistons would pursue Przybilla if they don't re-sign Ben. I merely suggest that it's a possibility, and they can offer similar things as the Spurs can offer him. The differences are minimal. Przybilla may very well prefer to play alongside Duncan and Parker or maybe live in San Antonio as opposed to Detroit or play for Pop instead of Flip. Again, I was merely suggesting that if Ben signs with the Bulls, that makes Detroit potential suitors for Przybilla as well.

[Bruno]

And, also, as I check, if the Pistons don't re-sign Ben Wallace and don't do a sign-and-trade, the Pistons will be under the cap. They possibly could offer Przybilla more money that the Spurs.


False, Pistons aren't far enough under the cap to offer more than the MLE to Pryzbilla.

[clubalien]

the real remaining question is whether ben wants the money or another title
so ben's choice is only between bulls and spurs?

you don't think he might decided to stay with pistons
or are you saying pistons might decided to pay him more than bulls

[clubalien]

ben to bulls
joel to spurs
nazr to pistons

[clubalien]

please remove your spurs affilation from your team field if you want pistons to win a title over the spurs

Przys agent has already signed a wink wink under the table deal since he is the same agent as rasho. This has been reported by ducks here and avilable at spursreport I bet too.

why do you think we traded rasho OUR ONLY STARTING CENTER to toronto for an old ageing star and a bonner a person that has no chance of starting and is slow. Tornoto a place that has a huge serbian? popul.ation and climiate more like his home country. Because rasho wanted to go there. and because przy wants to get out from the jail blazers to play with a contending team liek the spurs

[himat]

No news yet. This is becoming too dramatic :hang

[himat]

i want the pistons to win the title next season


Can't say I'm complaining, but aren't you a bigger fan of the spurs?
:huh

[Pistons < Spurs]

ben to bulls
joel to spurs
nazr to pistons


We better not go after Nazr ... :madrun

[ducks]

Sixers keen on Pistons' Ben Wallace

Billy King contacted the player's agent, hoping to fill a big void with strong defense and rebounding.
By Joe Juliano
Inquirer Staff Writer

http://www.philly.com/mld/philly/sp...ll/14951409.htm

Two of the 76ers' biggest deficiencies last season were defense and rebounding, so president and general manager Billy King went after the guy who is one of the best in the NBA in both areas.

On the first day NBA teams could negotiate with free agents, King pulled a bit of a surprise yesterday and contacted the agent for Detroit Pistons center Ben Wallace, a four-time NBA defensive player of the year.

King also called the representatives for the Sixers' three restricted free agents - John Salmons, Willie Green and Shavlik Randolph - as well as the agent for Washington Wizards swingman Jared Jeffries.

The 6-foot-9 Wallace, who will turn 32 in September, appeared ready to return to the Pistons before they were eliminated in the NBA playoffs. But during the season, he hired Arn Tellem, one of the most high-powered agents in the league, known for aggressively finding the best deals for his clients.

The Pistons are believed to be interested in signing Wallace for four years, with a salary starting at $11 million to $12 million. But another team may be interested in offering him a maximum deal of six years, with a salary beginning at $14 million or $15 million.

The Sixers, who are over the salary cap, can obtain Wallace only in a sign-and-trade with the Pistons. The Chicago Bulls, who have room under the salary cap, are also looking into signing Wallace.

Wallace averaged 11.3 rebounds (fifth in the NBA), 2.21 blocked shots and 1.8 steals last season.

King tendered qualifying offers to Salmons, Green and Randolph on Thursday, meaning the Sixers will have the right to match any offer the players receive from another team. Salmons, if signed, could be used as a piece in a trade, but the Sixers seem to want Green and Randolph back.

The versatile 6-11 Jeffries, who averaged 6.4 points and 4.9 rebounds in 77 games last season while earning a little less than $2.8 million, is a restricted free agent, meaning the Wizards can match any offer he receives.

[Pistons < Spurs]

A sign and trade w/ Philly? hmmm ... Iguodala? Dalembert? Not my ideal scenario ... but better than Ben going to Chicago and us getting nothing.

[Beer is Good]

Give us Big Ben and well give you Ericka and Van Horn :angel . You can extend our dynasty a little bit longer then 4-6 years with a deal like that.


Choking and not winning anything does not constitute a dynasty. The Mavs are well on their way to being the Minnesota Vikings of the NBA - all flash and no titles. Talk the Talk then trip over yourselves.

[Bob Lanier]

I would take Dampier for Ben, though. He's better than anyone the Pistons could get in free agency.

[clubalien]

pistons = dynasty
bulls = dyansty
boston = dyansty
spurs = dynasty
lakers= dynasty

dallas = losers

[Bruno]

Latest rumor is that ben will sign with Bulls and Pistons will get PJ Brown in a trade like that :
Detroit trade Ben Wallace (S&T) for PJ Brown.
Chicago trade Chandler + malik Allen for Ben Wallace + JR Smith
Hornets trade PJ Brown + JR Smith for Chandler + Malik Allen

[Beer is Good]

Latest rumor is that ben will sign with Bulls and Pistons will get PJ Brown in a trade like that :
Detroit trade Ben Wallace (S&T) for PJ Brown.
Chicago trade Chandler + malik Allen for Ben Wallace + JR Smith
Hornets trade PJ Brown + JR Smith for Chandler + Malik Allen
Doesn't look too good from the Piston's point of view.

[clubalien]

you will quake in fear when the ian era arrives

full NBA domination not seen since Mjordan was in the NBA

[Pistons < Spurs]

I will enjoy next season more then you will due to us being young and you having old role players rotting away on the bench. No one wants to trade with you either :lol . We will be back to win our first title and win 4-6 more after that unless we land Ben which will be 7-8 titles :king


:lmao :lmao :lmao

[Kori Ellis]

Latest rumor is that ben will sign with Bulls and Pistons will get PJ Brown in a trade like that :
Detroit trade Ben Wallace (S&T) for PJ Brown.
Chicago trade Chandler + malik Allen for Ben Wallace + JR Smith
Hornets trade PJ Brown + JR Smith for Chandler + Malik Allen

Where did you see that?

[clubalien]

latest rumor liek soem guy posted it on a bull forum? or a real news source like hoopshype/espn

[Bruno]

Where did you see that?

www.hornetsreport.com

The guy reports too that hornets will sign Bobby Jackson

[clubalien]

they might if they think pj brown is their best big option

they already have a big dude in r wallace

piston fans say they don't want nazr

they have no shot at joel przy

so if they lose ben wallace they defiently need a big to replace him

[Bruno]

Doesn't look too good from the Piston's point of view.

Ben Wallace is an unrestricted free agent. It's either nothing or PJ Brown for one year. They can get too JR Smith (I don't see Skiles being a fan of him).

[clubalien]

hmm hornets sign bobby jackson
I guess speedy is gone

there are two great back up point guards and that is speedy and sacs bobby jackson

[clubalien]

I think this is a true rumor

[FreshPrince22]

I do it if we can get a S&T of Speedy in the deal. Then we get our backup PG and temp. replacement center without touching the MLE.

[mavsfan1000]

Ben is not deserving of that type of money. A 31 year old who relies solely on his athleticism because he lacks height and shooting ability is not a good idea to spend a lot of money on.

[Trainwreck2100]

Ben is not deserving of that type of money. A 31 year old who relies solely on his athleticism because he lacks height and shooting ability is not a good idea to spend a lot of money on.

3 time DPOY

[Bob Lanier]

4 time, actually, but the Mav fan is right.

... and this is just the bottom limit. Most likely, he'll end up getting paid 60-some million by the Bulls.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Bulls vs. Pistons: Ben Wallace has 2 offers

By Krista Jahnke

Detroit Free Press

(MCT)

DETROIT - As other NBA free agents came to quick conclusions and signed new contracts over the weekend, Ben Wallace pondered the two deals on his plate and waited to see if others would top it.

The Pistons have offered a four-year deal worth approximately $48 million to keep their defensive-minded center in Detroit. And the Chicago Bulls, who sent coach Scott Skiles and vice president of basketball John Paxson to Detroit, have started bidding at closer to $52 million for four seasons.

Wallace is an unrestricted free agent and can verbally agree to a deal at any time, but he can't sign a contract until July 12 at the earliest.

Only four teams - Chicago, Atlanta, Charlotte and Toronto - have the salary cap space to target Wallace without arranging a sign-and-trade. Of those, only Chicago has shown real interest to this point.

Any team can try to acquire Wallace through a sign-and-trade, and the Philadelphia 76ers' Web site reported Saturday that the team called his agent, Arn Tellem.

The Pistons, meanwhile, also have placed calls to William Phillips, the Detroit-based agent who represents Sacramento shooting guard Bonzi Wells. Although Wallace is the team's primary concern, Wells also is high on Detroit's summer shopping list.

Wells dominated the Kings series against San Antonio in the playoffs, a showing that might have raised his worth around the league.

He reportedly wants a deal for five years starting near $8 million a season, a figure the Pistons might not be willing to pay, especially since Wells would come off the bench. But he fits the profile of one of their primary needs - a scorer who can slash and attack defenses off the dribble.

The Sacramento Bee reported Sunday that general manager Geoff Petrie started the bidding for Wells at something more than the roughly $5-million trade exception. The Denver Nuggets are also high on Wells.

[T Park]

5 years 40 million for Wells?

yowzers....

[Kori Ellis]

Pistons' initial offer irks Wallace

Center expected it would be for more than $49.6 million, but hasn't closed door on team.

Chris McCosky/The Detroit News

AUBURN HILLS -- The Pistons' negotiations to re-sign free agent Ben Wallace have gotten off to a rough start.

Wallace, in an interview with The Detroit News on Sunday, said he wasn't pleased with the Pistons' initial offer.

"It was disappointing," he said. "It was not at all what I expected."

The Pistons' initial offer was a four-year deal starting at $11.5 million and would pay him $49.6 million over four years. It would make Wallace the highest-paid player on the team next season, eclipsing Rasheed Wallace's salary by $100,000.

Pistons president Joe Dumars, reached by e-mail, said he didn't want to negotiate through the newspaper and declined comment.

Wallace met with Chicago Bulls general manager John Paxson and coach Scott Skiles in Detroit on Saturday. He characterized the meeting as "real good" but added that no official offer was extended.

Reports of the Bulls offering a contract starting at $13 million or $14 million were overstated, as were reports of the Bulls offering a five-year deal.

"I ain't looking for more than four years," said Wallace, who will turn 32 on Sept. 10.

Wallace said he expects to hear from several other teams, including Washington, New York and Cleveland, as early as today. Those teams don't have the salary cap space to sign Wallace, but would be looking to facilitate a sign-and-trade in case the Pistons and Wallace reach an impasse.

They are not yet at that point, Wallace said.

"No, the door's not closed (on the Pistons)," he said. "I know it's a business and they have to run their business."

Wallace also understands that it was only an initial offer and those typically are lower than what the Pistons truly intend to pay.

"I just thought we had a pretty good run there (with the Pistons) and I thought the offer would have been a bit better," he said. "I didn't think we had to really negotiate like that at this point. I just thought that initial offer wasn't altogether fair."

It is somewhat interesting that the Bulls would visit with Wallace and not leave him with an offer. Initially, Wallace didn't figure into the Bulls' offseason plans. They drafted Tyrus Thomas, a rugged, 6-foot-9 power forward much in the mold of Wallace with the same offensive limitations. They have been shopping 7-footer Tyson Chandler around the league in hopes of getting a more offensive-minded big man, perhaps someone like Golden State's Troy Murphy or Utah's Carlos Boozer, and had their free-agent sights on a less-expensive center such as Joel Przybilla or Nazr Mohammed.

Paxson started making overtures toward Wallace only after being encouraged by owner Jerry Reinsdorf. Reinsdorf has done a lot of successful business over the years with Wallace's agent, Arn Tellem, who might have pushed for the Bulls to consider Wallace.

It could be a win-win situation for the Bulls. If they sign Wallace, they can lessen the pressure on Thomas' development. And if they don't , they still damage the Pistons by raising Wallace's sticker price.

"I am just sitting here on the unemployment line, waiting," Wallace said. "That's all I can do right now."

Meanwhile, the Phoenix Suns have met with Lindsey Hunter and apparently offered him their bi-annual exception, which would pay him $3 million over the next two seasons. Hunter, who is leaning toward returning for a 14th season, has said he wants to finish his career with the Pistons.

[Kori Ellis]

^^ That article has more details and basically says the Bulls haven't offered Ben anything yet.

[T Park]

yeah 4 years 48 million is such a slap in the face.

Fucking athletes.

[polandprzem]

WTF Chicago don't want to fight for a trophy?

[T Park]

I wouldn't give Ben Wallace 14 million.

Youd have to be nuts to pay him that.

[FreshPrince22]

See ya Ben! Don't let the door hit ya on your way out!

Insulted? Give me a fucking break. Go take you and your thirst for "touches" to Chicago. I give it 2 months before he bitches about another coach (this would be the ... 4th or 5th in a row?)

I want 2001-2003 Ben Wallace back. This ain't him. The dude went from Mr. lunchpale, hardworker to a huge ego prima donna. :depressed

Get a Sign and Trade done and I'll by happy as hell.

[polandprzem]

See ya Ben! Don't let the door hit ya on your way out!

Insulted? Give me a fucking break. Go take you and your thirst for "touches" to Chicago. I give it 2 months before he bitches about another coach (this would be the ... 4th or 5th in a row?)

I want 2001-2003 Ben Wallace back. This ain't him. The dude went from Mr. lunchpale, hardworker to a huge ego prima donna. :depressed

Get a Sign and Trade done and I'll by happy as hell.

:wtf realy?

Come on. Ben still can contribute and still is DPOTY ( :rolleyes )
WWhoever you get outside Ben you will have to change the way you are playing and that could kill Billups and Hamilton. BUt who knows?

[ducks]

"I ain't looking for more than four years," said Wallace, who will turn 32 on Sept. 10.

[orhe]

ben wallace
lols what an overrated player...