Assume Duncan Moves to Center

[wildbill2u]

For most of his career, Duncan was the perfect PF. Facing the basket, he had good range on a deadly outside bank shot and could drive to the basket.

In the past few years, however, he's played mostly with his back to the basket like a traditional center, lost his eye on the outside bank shot (he's missing four foot bankers now, for God's sake) and his driving ability has been impaired by injury and age. The legs are the first to go. He can still be a force in the league, but at the center position.

I'm not saying we won't occasionally see a flash of the old Tim, but I see no reason to assume that he'll EVER go back to the style of play that he exhibited early in his career.

That changes things a lot of our thinking about what we need in personnel. The backup center position could be filled with ease because Tim would be playing most of the minutes. A cheap veteran and Javtokas answer that bill.

With Tim at center, we'd need a younger, athletic PF who can rebound, play defense and give us a few points. Any comments?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Assume Duncan Moves to Center

:vomit:


Any comments?

Yeah,

FUCK SMALL BALL

[MI21]

With Tim at center, we'd need a younger, athletic PF who can rebound, play defense and give us a few points. Any comments?

I wonder who timvp thinks would fit that bill.

:lol

[SPARKY]

Duncan played half the game at the 5 spot last season. Why do Spurs fans assume that moving to the 5 is some kind of new territory for TD?

I know, he likes being thought of as a power forward.

So here's the deal. Start someone like Javtokas at the 5, let TD continue to start at the 4 and then he can play the rest of the game at the 5.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Who said anything about it being new territory? It was a complete disaster defensively in the Dallas series.

Anyone expecting Dallas to fall off and not be there in the WCFs waiting for us?

[SPARKY]

It was a disaster because the starting power forward was Michael Finley. About the only thing Rasho or Mohammed starting would have done is ensure the games were over by the early 3rd quarter.

Spurs basically needed a couple guys like Haslem and Posey to get by the Mavs.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Right, and who would be our starting PF today? Or are you expecting Horry to play 35 a night?

[Obstructed_View]

Duncan played half the game at the 5 spot last season. Why do Spurs fans assume that moving to the 5 is some kind of new territory for TD?

I know, he likes being thought of as a power forward.

So here's the deal. Start someone like Javtokas at the 5, let TD continue to start at the 4 and then he can play the rest of the game at the 5.
It's only new territory if there's not another big guy to help defend the rim, as Duncan has traditionally been the biggest guy on the floor only in stretches. If Duncan is having to roam the lane trying to close on dribblers who get past their defender, he will spend much of his time in foul trouble, like he did against Dallas. Most of Duncan's fouls came against someone else's assignment. If Duncan is the starting center, then you are relying on someone like Robert Horry to be the second shot blocker, and you are in deep deep trouble.

[SPARKY]

It's only new territory if there's not another big guy to help defend the rim. If Duncan is having to roam the lane trying to close on dribblers who get past their defender, he will spend much of his time in foul trouble. If you are relying on Robert Horry to be the second shot blocker, you are in deep deep trouble.

So Duncan's on Damp/Mbenga/Diop and then you have Rasho chasing down Dirk?

Or you flip the defensive assignments and you have Duncan guarding Dirk. How long does it take TD to foul out? 15 minutes?

Then you say put TD on Howard and Bowen on Dirk. Then you have TD running all over the floor and in foul trouble. You also just moved your best rebounder farther away from the rim.

It's fairly obvious that the Spurs need to find an athletic big 3/small 4 who can step out and defend on the perimeter yet is big enough to play the 4.

Miami won because they had guys who fit that profile. The Spurs did not.

[Quadzilla99]

Scola?

[Solid D]

So Duncan's on Damp/Mbenga/Diop and then you have Rasho chasing down Dirk?

Or you flip the defensive assignments and you have Duncan guarding Dirk. How long does it take TD to foul out? 15 minutes?

Then you say put TD on Howard and Bowen on Dirk. Then you have TD running all over the floor and in foul trouble. You also just moved your best rebounder farther away from the rim.

It's fairly obvious that the Spurs need to find an athletic big 3/small 4 who can step out and defend on the perimeter yet is big enough to play the 4.

Miami won because they had guys who fit that profile. The Spurs did not.

The sum of the matter of last year's playoffs. (you didn't mention Horry's failure to defend out on the floor...but I know you know).

[wildbill2u]

I think Scola's probably not fast or athletic enough to fill the spot and that's why the Spurs aren't quite so interested in him anymore. Horry is certainly not a full-time player. I'm not ever sure he's worth his current contract.

There aren't a whole lot of good center options available. That's why acknowleging what has already happened--Tim is a center--opens up a whole new range of options because the power forward position always seems to have more good players available.

[Obstructed_View]

So Duncan's on Damp/Mbenga/Diop and then you have Rasho chasing down Dirk?

Or you flip the defensive assignments and you have Duncan guarding Dirk. How long does it take TD to foul out? 15 minutes?

Then you say put TD on Howard and Bowen on Dirk. Then you have TD running all over the floor and in foul trouble. You also just moved your best rebounder farther away from the rim.

It's fairly obvious that the Spurs need to find an athletic big 3/small 4 who can step out and defend on the perimeter yet is big enough to play the 4.

Miami won because they had guys who fit that profile. The Spurs did not.
That would be a really convincing argument if Duncan hadn't actually been running all over the floor and in foul trouble without your imaginary matchup problems. Duncan wasn't covering Howard, yet he still had to chase him around. It might have been nice for someone to have been standing in the lane able to defend the rim against the layup drill.

Since Duncan is such a defensive liability that you would put him on Dampier or Diop because he fouls out in fifteen minutes against Dirk, why would you have him as the only big on the floor? Do you really respect Diop or Dampier's offensive game enough to put a hall of famer on him at all times? If Duncan can't freelance off of one of those scrubs then he should probably never be put in a game again, and if the Spurs are going to lose a seven game series, it's not because they were lit up by Diop or Dampier. They are one trick ponies on the offensive end, and they are much less likely to hurt you on putbacks if Rasho or Nazr are in the game.

Since only you and the Spurs coaching staff believe that Josh Howard is beating anyone with his jumpshot, putting a small defender that can't stay in front of him is a great alternative to a having a big defender that can't stay in front of him. Of course, keeping the big defender at the rim to block or change his shot wouldn't make any sense, because Josh Howard is going to beat you with that jumpshot that was so effective against the Heat. The only alternative if you are the Spurs is to mothball both of your centers and play a style of basketball that is completely unfamiliar to you because you are so afraid of Josh Howard's jumpshot and Erick Dampier's offense on a team that finished second in the division to you.

[J.T.]

I love how Dallas is now the big bad Spurs killer because they won in OT on a cheap no call at the regulation buzzer (and a stupid foul by Manu)(yet Game 5 of the Finals is decided by FTs. Consistent officiating be damned). I guess we should be worried about Sacto as well since they pushed us to 6 in a series nearly everyone here thought was gonna be a sweep after the 34 point ass pounding we put on them in game 1.

Dallas loses in 5 or 6 if the Spurs don't go small. Lesson learned. I have nothing more to say, so I'll just quote AHF.



FUCK SMALL BALL


btw AHF did you get that Wade jersey you were talking about?

[wildbill2u]

I'm not a 'trade maven' and don't really know what PFs might be available with a trade or in FA.

Why don't some of you guys who know that stuff bring up some names as possible trades or FAs? Might be more fun than those speculations on the centers available.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

btw AHF did you get that Wade jersey you were talking about?

Nope. They actually had them at the airport in Ft. Lauderdale earlier this week when I was there, but for $80 a pop I'll pass.

[wildbill2u]

So Duncan's on Damp/Mbenga/Diop and then you have Rasho chasing down Dirk?

Its fairly obvious that the Spurs need to find an athletic big 3/small 4 who can step out and defend on the perimeter yet is big enough to play the 4.

Miami won because they had guys who fit that profile. The Spurs did not.

Uhh....Sparky, I hate to tell you this but Rasho was traded a couple of weeks ago. Try to stay up with the group :rolleyes

But you're right about needing a big 3 or athletic 4. We actually need both.

[SPARKY]

That would be a really convincing argument if Duncan hadn't actually been running all over the floor and in foul trouble without your imaginary matchup problems. Duncan wasn't covering Howard, yet he still had to chase him around. It might have been nice for someone to have been standing in the lane able to defend the rim against the layup drill.

Since Duncan is such a defensive liability that you would put him on Dampier or Diop because he fouls out in fifteen minutes against Dirk, why would you have him as the only big on the floor? Do you really respect Diop or Dampier's offensive game enough to put a hall of famer on him at all times? If Duncan can't freelance off of one of those scrubs then he should probably never be put in a game again, and if the Spurs are going to lose a seven game series, it's not because they were lit up by Diop or Dampier. They are one trick ponies on the offensive end, and they are much less likely to hurt you on putbacks if Rasho or Nazr are in the game.

Since only you and the Spurs coaching staff believe that Josh Howard is beating anyone with his jumpshot, putting a small defender that can't stay in front of him is a great alternative to a having a big defender that can't stay in front of him. Of course, keeping the big defender at the rim to block or change his shot wouldn't make any sense, because Josh Howard is going to beat you with that jumpshot that was so effective against the Heat. The only alternative if you are the Spurs is to mothball both of your centers and play a style of basketball that is completely unfamiliar to you because you are so afraid of Josh Howard's jumpshot and Erick Dampier's offense on a team that finished second in the division to you.

Right, things would've been worse if Pop couldn't have found time in the game for TD to guard Dampier/Diop/Mbenga.

[SPARKY]

Uhh....Sparky, I hate to tell you this but Rasho was traded a couple of weeks ago. Try to stay up with the group :rolleyes

But you're right about needing a big 3 or athletic 4. We actually need both.

The discussion was in regards to the playoff series. Hate to break it to you, but you weren't paying attention.

[Obstructed_View]

Dampier/Diop/Mbenga.
Offensive juggernaut that they are.

[Obstructed_View]

The discussion was in regards to the playoff series. Hate to break it to you, but you weren't paying attention.
:lol

[SPARKY]

I love how Dallas is now the big bad Spurs killer because they won in OT on a cheap no call at the regulation buzzer (and a stupid foul by Manu)(yet Game 5 of the Finals is decided by FTs. Consistent officiating be damned). I guess we should be worried about Sacto as well since they pushed us to 6 in a series nearly everyone here thought was gonna be a sweep after the 34 point ass pounding we put on them in game 1.

Dallas loses in 5 or 6 if the Spurs don't go small. Lesson learned. I have nothing more to say, so I'll just quote AHF.




btw AHF did you get that Wade jersey you were talking about?


Spurs go with their traditional lineup and Duncan's spending most of his time in foul trouble. Remember how that went in the 2nd quarter of Game 2?

[SPARKY]

Offensive juggernaut that they are.


Exactly. At least Duncan can stay on the floor.

[wildbill2u]

To JT and AHF: This isn't a proposal for small ball. I'd like to see a PF who's in the mold of Rasheed Wallace-big, athletic and great outside shot--next to Tim. Tim can eat up most of the centers in the league--if he's got someone to side him who can hit a few outside shots and keep the double and triple teams off him.

I'm assuming that's why they got Bonner, but I don't think he's the guy I'm hoping for.

I know we won't be able to get a PF of Rasheed's caliber, but there should be someone available on the next rung down. Find him.

[SPARKY]

It's not hard to see what the Spurs need. Power forwards who can step out and defend on the floor. Oh, and rebound a little too. If they have a J that's a nice bonus.

[Obstructed_View]

Spurs go with their traditional lineup and Duncan's spending most of his time in foul trouble. Remember how that went in the 2nd quarter of Game 2?
If you are saying that losing by 30 was an indication of how the traditional lineup was going to fare against the Mavericks over a seven game series, we'll have to agree to disagree. The Spurs not showing up for that game had a hell of a lot more to do with the final score than AJ pulling Griffin from the starting lineup.

[Obstructed_View]

To JT and AHF: This isn't a proposal for small ball. I'd like to see a PF who's in the mold of Rasheed Wallace-big, athletic and great outside shot--next to Tim. Tim can eat up most of the centers in the league--if he's got someone to side him who can hit a few outside shots and keep the double and triple teams off him.
You need to go back and look at Duncan's stat lines for the series against the Mavericks. Nobody was double or triple teaming him. The Spurs didn't hit open jumpers because there were no open jumpers to be had. Another jump shooter was not what the Spurs needed in that series. There's already a formula to beat the 2005 Phoenix Suns, and at least the Suns were smart enough to figure that out.

[wildbill2u]

The discussion was in regards to the playoff series. Hate to break it to you, but you weren't paying attention.

Sorry, but I started the thread discussion to figure out what to do in the future with personnel decisions, with the assumption of the move of Tim to center. That's a done deal in my opinion based on his recent performance and current physical abilities.

We can't worry about what happened last year since the players have changed already--and basing arguments for next year on last year's roster or performance in the playoffs is a waste of time.

[SPARKY]

If you are saying that losing by 30 was an indication of how the traditional lineup was going to fare against the Mavericks over a seven game series, we'll have to agree to disagree. The Spurs not showing up for that game had a hell of a lot more to do with the final score than AJ pulling Griffin from the starting lineup.

Duncan leaving the game at the 6 minute mark in the 2nd quarter due to foul trouble was the primary culprit.

[SPARKY]

You need to go back and look at Duncan's stat lines for the series against the Mavericks. Nobody was double or triple teaming him. The Spurs didn't hit open jumpers because there were no open jumpers to be had. Another jump shooter was not what the Spurs needed in that series. There's already a formula to beat the 2005 Phoenix Suns, and at least the Suns were smart enough to figure that out.

Apples and Oranges. Dirk is too good of a perimeter offensive player for that to work defensively.

[Obstructed_View]

Apples and Oranges. Dirk is too good of a perimeter offensive player for that to work defensively.
You misunderstand what I mean. I'm talking about the defense the Mavs used against the Spurs. The Spurs turned themselves into a jump shooting team with a dominant big man. The Mavs didn't double and let the big man get his numbers, while limiting the opportunities of the three point shooters.

[Obstructed_View]

Duncan leaving the game at the 6 minute mark in the 2nd quarter due to foul trouble was the primary culprit.
Duncan left the game due to an offensive foul. You aren't making any headway here.

[silk]

That would be a really convincing argument if Duncan hadn't actually been running all over the floor and in foul trouble without your imaginary matchup problems. Duncan wasn't covering Howard, yet he still had to chase him around. It might have been nice for someone to have been standing in the lane able to defend the rim against the layup drill.

Since Duncan is such a defensive liability that you would put him on Dampier or Diop because he fouls out in fifteen minutes against Dirk, why would you have him as the only big on the floor? Do you really respect Diop or Dampier's offensive game enough to put a hall of famer on him at all times? If Duncan can't freelance off of one of those scrubs then he should probably never be put in a game again, and if the Spurs are going to lose a seven game series, it's not because they were lit up by Diop or Dampier. They are one trick ponies on the offensive end, and they are much less likely to hurt you on putbacks if Rasho or Nazr are in the game.

Since only you and the Spurs coaching staff believe that Josh Howard is beating anyone with his jumpshot, putting a small defender that can't stay in front of him is a great alternative to a having a big defender that can't stay in front of him. Of course, keeping the big defender at the rim to block or change his shot wouldn't make any sense, because Josh Howard is going to beat you with that jumpshot that was so effective against the Heat. The only alternative if you are the Spurs is to mothball both of your centers and play a style of basketball that is completely unfamiliar to you because you are so afraid of Josh Howard's jumpshot and Erick Dampier's offense on a team that finished second in the division to you.


interesting. with the new rule can we still play one of our big on howard and let him shoot? the way we played phoenix with TD on one of their permieter player? i wish it's possible because Spurs seem to search another big center..

[Obstructed_View]

interesting. with the new rule can we still play one of our big on howard and let him shoot? the way we played phoenix with TD on one of their permieter player? i wish it's possible because Spurs seem to search another big center..
What new rule?

[Quadzilla99]

Duncan left the game due to an offensive foul. You aren't making any headway here.

He's saying if Duncan didn't get into foul trouble the big lineup would have done better in game 2. I think we also came out somewhat flat in game 2.

[strangeweather]

To JT and AHF: This isn't a proposal for small ball. I'd like to see a PF who's in the mold of Rasheed Wallace-big, athletic and great outside shot--next to Tim.
Oh come on, we all know that once you take a center besides Duncan out of the lineup, every lineup is the same.

Rasheed Wallace = Earl Boykins.

[wildbill2u]

You need to go back and look at Duncan's stat lines for the series against the Mavericks. Nobody was double or triple teaming him. The Spurs didn't hit open jumpers because there were no open jumpers to be had. Another jump shooter was not what the Spurs needed in that series. There's already a formula to beat the 2005 Phoenix Suns, and at least the Suns were smart enough to figure that out.

I'd like to get off the obsession with last year's Mavs WCF series for a moment. I think we all agree that if a few calls had gone our way or Manu hadn't had a brain fart, we would've won with whatever lineup we used against them. OK?

But let's look at what Tim now brings to the table. Is he really the same PF he used to be? Or is he going to be playing the 5 more and more next year and the remainder of his career?

If you agree with that, then we have a useful starting place for a discussion of who plays the 4. The 3 position is another discussion and has been picked to death, but we've really never had a serious forum on replacing Tim at the 4.

Some folks might want a small 4 and go small ball. That's not my preference. Basketball is still a big man's game because whoever gets the most rebounds wins. So what kind of PF do we want? And who could we get?

[Obstructed_View]

He's saying if Duncan didn't get into foul trouble the big lineup would have done better in game 2. I think we also came out somewhat flat in game 2.
But he's implying that Duncan getting into foul trouble is somehow due to Nazr and Rasho being in the game, even though Duncan committed a charge and Horry was the other big in the second quarter, which blows holes in the whole stupid argument. The truth is that any lineup with Duncan in it would have done better at any time, but especially in game 2, when NOBODY but Duncan decided to show up for the game.

[Obstructed_View]

I'd like to get off the obsession with last year's Mavs WCF series for a moment...
You said that you want Duncan to have more outside shooters around him after the Spurs were bounced out by an inferior team due to the fact that all Duncan had around him were outside shooters. Those who refuse to pay attention to history are doomed to repeat it. There's already an established way to defend Duncan and four shooters in a seven game series, because the Spurs did it against Amare and four shooters the year before. And, no we don't all agree with the "if some calls had gone our way" bullshit. I believe that if the Spurs had played the basketball that won them 63 games no amount of bad calls or bad bounces or anything would have been enough to turn the series.

Saying that you would like a "Rasheed Wallace" type to stand at the fucking perimiter is the logic that allowed the Pistons to watch the Finals from home. Rasheed Wallace is one of the best post players in the league when he decides to play there. The one coach that got him to do it won a ring. But by all means, let's abandon the defense that won three championships for the Spurs and one for the Pistons in favor of the philosophy that can't get them to the conference finals.

[JamStone]

When you say "assume Duncan moves to center," do you mean that the Spurs organization and the NBA give him the title of "CENTER" and Tim plays the same exact way he has his entire career?

Because basically that is what would be the effect of Tim playing center. He already plays center.

[Obstructed_View]

When you say "assume Duncan moves to center," do you mean that the Spurs organization and the NBA give him the title of "CENTER" and Tim plays the same exact way he has his entire career?

Because basically that is what would be the effect of Tim playing center. He already plays center.
He still doesn't start in the all star game.

[JamStone]

He still doesn't start in the all star game.

Then tell the United States to stop sending computers over to China.

[bdictjames]

He still doesn't start in the all star game.

Good point Yao Ming's got too many fans.. as if he's really that good

[wildbill2u]

When you say "assume Duncan moves to center," do you mean that the Spurs organization and the NBA give him the title of "CENTER" and Tim plays the same exact way he has his entire career?

Because basically that is what would be the effect of Tim playing center. He already plays center.

Exactly. But he was more of a true forward early on, facing up to the basket and working from about 15 feet out. But no longer. So what's our future?

If your two traditional styled centers (Rasho and Nazr) don't play much in the playoffs, you can be sure the move of Tim to the center of the floor is a done deal. Any traditional center we trade for or acquire is going to be his backup, not the starter.

I'd like to explore what kind of player we put beside him on the wing at the 4--and who that player might be since I dont think we have a good PF replacement right now.

[Bruno]

Duncan at center isn't small ball at all.
Duncan at center with a legit PF (and not Finley) is way better than Duncan at PF with a legit center.

[strangeweather]

Duncan at center isn't small ball at all.
Duncan at center with a legit PF (and not Finley) is way better than Duncan at PF with a legit center.
Why do you say that?

I think one of the main reasons for going that way is that legit centers are a lot harder to come by. But given an equal quality center and PF, I'd rather have the center.

[Bruno]

Why do you say that?

I think one of the main reasons for going that way is that legit centers are a lot harder to come by. But given an equal quality center and PF, I'd rather have the center.

Duncan can't defend well against quick or perimeter oriented PF.
And against quick or perimeter oriented PF, you can't put a center on them.

[SPARKY]

Duncan left the game due to an offensive foul. You aren't making any headway here.

I'm not going to make any headway because you seem incapable of understanding why having Duncan unable to spend any time guarding the Mavs' 5 is preferable to him not. Duncan would foul out of the game in the 1st half if he started on Dirk. Otherwise you have to count on Rasho or Nazr to guard Dirk or, worse, Howard.

It wouldn't have worked, man. Now either enjoy your day or continue to delude yourself.

[wildbill2u]

Why do you say that?

I think one of the main reasons for going that way is that legit centers are a lot harder to come by. But given an equal quality center and PF, I'd rather have the center.

Right. We have the legit center now in Tim. He's gonna play there for the rest of his career. Why fight that and settle for some slow-footed oaf that no one else wants? Bring in Javtokas and let him fight for minutes with Oberto at backup.

Now find a legit PF. There's always a lot more of them out there and that makes them easier to find and acquire.

[polandprzem]

Duncan can't defend well against quick or perimeter oriented PF.
And against quick or perimeter oriented PF, you can't put a center on them.

I doesn't matter.
It's all about the matchups and Timmy being at PF still can be put on Centers.

[Bruno]

I doesn't matter.
It's all about the matchups and Timmy being at PF still can be put on Centers.

You haven't understand what I've said.
If Duncan play with a legit center, none can defend against quick, perimeter oriented PF.
If Duncan play with a legit PF, none can defend on a dominant center.

Now just look at other teams : only Shaq and Yao are dominant center while there are a lot of quick, perimeter oriented PF.

In the 06 nba, Duncan should play at center and not at PF.

[leemajors]

Then tell the United States to stop sending computers over to China.

don't they make those computers in china?

[polandprzem]

You haven't understand what I've said.
If Duncan play with a legit center, none can defend against quick, perimeter oriented PF.
If Duncan play with a legit PF, none can defend on a dominant center.

Now just look at other teams : only Shaq and Yao are dominant center while there are a lot of quick, perimeter oriented PF.

In the 06 nba, Duncan should play at center and not at PF.

:tu okay
But I do not like the idea putting Tim on the center position. I know about the athletic PF's but still we have no one to put on the "PF atletic" spot. timvp would come up with Evans but to me, still Spurs need a center. Looks like the NBA has changed and the small ball is dominating cause of lack of true centers and it's beacause of MJ and youngsters attitute to be pro's as quick as possible (center position needs time to develop).
Why we need a center not a PF?
I don't know. Spurs won 63 games. I must to look up at the other teams.....
A frontcourts built with PF and a PF one is more and the other less athletic, in your opinin Tim should guard those less yes?
We will see in what directin Pop will go. We've got javtokas as a great supporter at the Center position, who else do we need.

Damn I had no concept on that one. I will come up with somethink better later maybe

[wildbill2u]

don't they make those computers in china?

Yeah, and I hear they have a secret trojan program installed that only kicks in when someone votes for center on the NBA all-star squad and secretly makes the vote for Yao.

Clever people.

[Beer is Good]

To JT and AHF: This isn't a proposal for small ball. I'd like to see a PF who's in the mold of Rasheed Wallace-big, athletic and great outside shot--next to Tim. Tim can eat up most of the centers in the league--if he's got someone to side him who can hit a few outside shots and keep the double and triple teams off him.

I'm assuming that's why they got Bonner, but I don't think he's the guy I'm hoping for.

I know we won't be able to get a PF of Rasheed's caliber, but there should be someone available on the next rung down. Find him.


1) Wallace sized players with skills that can shoot don't grow on trees.

2) There isn't anyone on the next rung down. Not anyone we could get this year at this point in time.

You can't play small ball against Dallas because Dallas doesn't play small. Center is 7', PF is 7'. I know Dirk is a weak 7', but even he can kill a 6'7" guy on the boards. We saw it happen.

[strangeweather]

You haven't understand what I've said.
If Duncan play with a legit center, none can defend against quick, perimeter oriented PF.
If Duncan play with a legit PF, none can defend on a dominant center.

Now just look at other teams : only Shaq and Yao are dominant center while there are a lot of quick, perimeter oriented PF.

In the 06 nba, Duncan should play at center and not at PF.
You make a good point. But we already have some options on the team that have some mobility, and we really have nobody with size.

That's why I like the idea of bringing in a guy like Pollard and trying to fill out the lineup with someone in the Jumaine Jones mold. Pollard not only gives us the guy to body up Shaq and Yao, he gives us a guy to absorb punishment from a lot of the bangers out there. There still aren't all that many PFs that Duncan can't cover if he wants to.

Meanwhile, most quick teams still have at least one guy you can hide a slow defender against. For the ones that don't like Dallas and Phoenix, Javtokas and Bonner are possibilities for minutes, and with an athletic 3, we have a fallback option if we can't keep up.

[clubalien]

your options are
zarko rad from portland
j O'neal from pacers
SAR who does he play for now kings?
R wallace from pistons demands trade now that he isn;t a wlalce brother

so they all cost alot of money and not many players we have to trade

personally I think ODOM woudl be the perfect player from what I saw at olympics. He was playing great while duncan was seating on bench with foul trouble.

in the end I think Ian might move from Center to a PF for the spurs

[ducks]

Ian Is In A Spur Uniform Yet
He Signed A Year Contract With Another Team
Maybe Next Year

[clubalien]

I forgot I think we might have our PF

Denver wants to unload KMART the same Kmart that played with KiDD

hmm oddly I like it. Kmart surely has better hands then nazr

[leemajors]

I forgot I think we might have our PF

Denver wants to unload KMART the same Kmart that played with KiDD

hmm oddly I like it. Kmart surely has better hands then nazr

no thanks, he makes way too much money and can't shoot for shit.

[Obstructed_View]

I'm not going to make any headway because you seem incapable of understanding why having Duncan unable to spend any time guarding the Mavs' 5 is preferable to him not. Duncan would foul out of the game in the 1st half if he started on Dirk. Otherwise you have to count on Rasho or Nazr to guard Dirk or, worse, Howard.

It wouldn't have worked, man. Now either enjoy your day or continue to delude yourself.
That first sentence is like a quadruple negative, but the idea that Duncan would foul out in the first half is almost as stupid as your previous assertion that Dirk would average 50 points per game against the Spurs' conventional defense. The fact that you cite Duncan being in foul trouble even though it had nothing to do with the defensive matchups you keep referring to just shows that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

That said, nobody has ever said that Bowen wouldn't cover Dirk. If you have Rasho or Nazr in the game to defend the rim, Bowen can actually stay on Dirk, which he was unable to do with smallball. The only way the Spurs lose that series is if Howard and Harris beat them by shooting jump shots. Fat fucking chance. There is no man to man rule any more, and there's no illegal defense. Therefore the Spurs can keep a big guy down near the rim. Hell, I'd rather have five defensive three second calls in a game than fifteen uncontested layups.

The system that you keep defending fucking failed, dude. If it was the way to play the Spurs should probably have tried it sometime before the playoffs.

[wildbill2u]

1) Wallace sized players with skills that can shoot don't grow on trees.

2) There isn't anyone on the next rung down. Not anyone we could get this year at this point in time.

You can't play small ball against Dallas because Dallas doesn't play small. Center is 7', PF is 7'. I know Dirk is a weak 7', but even he can kill a 6'7" guy on the boards. We saw it happen.

I'm not asking for small ball. Read my posts. I'd love to get a real strong and mobile PF. The problem, as you've noted, isn't that teams have small players--many of the new breed are as big as the old style center--as much as it is mobility and athleticism on the defensive end.

Standard centers, the slow-footed 7' behemoths that battled in the paint, are being superceded by big guys who have speed and mobility. Our matchup problems with teams like Phoenix (Amare and Diaw) and the Mavs (Dirk and Howard) are gonna get worse if we keep on thinking in terms of the old style centers. We had a couple of those in NAZR and Rasho and in the end the coaches decided they couldn't cut it against the new breed of BIGs at forward.

Dirk has always played more as a SF, using his speed on big opponents and his height to shoot over small one. Dirk is a whole different proposition and we haven't really found anyone to defend against him, but no one is going to stop a player of his caliber every game. He may become more of a post player under Avery, but that just means we need a good big mobile PF.

Someone will have to be found to defend against their other big forward as well. If Bruce can do it, fine.

[Obstructed_View]

We had a couple of those in NAZR and Rasho and in the end the coaches decided they couldn't cut it against the new breed of BIGs at forward.
Except the Spurs lost, and it wasn't because of the new breed of forwards. It was a bad decision by the coaches.

[wildbill2u]

If the roster stayed like it is today, we have the following forwards who will be 30 or more years old during next season: Oberto, Horry, Williams, Finley, Bowen, and Duncan.

That's virtually every forward or center we have with the exception of NAZR (29) and he's probably gone anyway and Bonner.

We need an infusion of younger bigs and I think that means getting some mobile and athletic guys at 6'8" or better. Bonner was a start and signaled that the FO and POP see the need and are moving forward (pun intended).

Let's have some more trade or free agent possibilities.

[wildbill2u]

Obstructed view is supposed to be a nickname, not a permanent mental condition.

If you love the old style centers so much and want to go back to that style, then come on with it. Tell us who we can get and how much time he'll play there when we already see Tim working into that slot.

[td4mvp21]

I like how everyone is giving up on his outside game. His foot has been injured the past two years, that affects your jumping ability. His jumper was fine at the beginning of the season (in fact, it was better than before nearly) but once he got PF it went away. If his foot is finally healthy next season I bet the banker and everything will be back.

[SPARKY]

That first sentence is like a quadruple negative, but the idea that Duncan would foul out in the first half is almost as stupid as your previous assertion that Dirk would average 50 points per game against the Spurs' conventional defense. The fact that you cite Duncan being in foul trouble even though it had nothing to do with the defensive matchups you keep referring to just shows that you don't know what the hell you are talking about.

That said, nobody has ever said that Bowen wouldn't cover Dirk. If you have Rasho or Nazr in the game to defend the rim, Bowen can actually stay on Dirk, which he was unable to do with smallball. The only way the Spurs lose that series is if Howard and Harris beat them by shooting jump shots. Fat fucking chance. There is no man to man rule any more, and there's no illegal defense. Therefore the Spurs can keep a big guy down near the rim. Hell, I'd rather have five defensive three second calls in a game than fifteen uncontested layups.

The system that you keep defending fucking failed, dude. If it was the way to play the Spurs should probably have tried it sometime before the playoffs.

The only stupidity I see here are your basketball takes. Anyone with half a clue knows that the Spurs couldn't start their regular season lineup against the Mavs and hope to win that series.

[waly.mg]

We can start with PF - Duncan and Center Oberto

Oberto can play 20 minutes, and in the other 28 Duncan is the Center

[Kori Ellis]

This thread cracks me up because AHF assumes that if Duncan plays center we'll see the version of small ball that we saw in the WCF. That's simply not true. It won't be Finley or Horry playing PF.

If Duncan plays center, which he's done a lot in the last two years anyhow, then the Spurs would pick up an athletic PF to play along side of him.

I've always thought this would be the best route anyway, just because the other centers out there suck and Spurs need to get more athletic anyway.

I'd rather have Duncan and PF than a bad center and Duncan upfront.

[yavozerb]

Duncan, Gooden, Bowen, Manu, TP...
Jav, Bonner, ?, finley, snow

We should try and get gooden and snow from cavs..

[Obstructed_View]

The only stupidity I see here are your basketball takes. Anyone with half a clue knows that the Spurs couldn't start their regular season lineup against the Mavs and hope to win that series.
Well, you certainly qualify for the "half a clue" crowd.

[SPARKY]

Better than none.

[Obstructed_View]

Obstructed view is supposed to be a nickname, not a permanent mental condition.

If you love the old style centers so much and want to go back to that style, then come on with it. Tell us who we can get and how much time he'll play there when we already see Tim working into that slot.
I don't give a shit what position you officially call what Duncan plays, as long as there is someone that can actually play defense and block shots on the floor with him. To paraphrase what Kori said, if you are relying on Robert Horry to be the other big defender you are fucked. I'd be happy with Mahinmi or Pryzbilla or Javtokas, but I wasn't particularly unhappy with Nazr or Rasho either. Call them fours or call them fives. Just make sure you play them in the fucking playoffs.

[SA Gunslinger]

The Spurs didn't hit open jumpers because there were no open jumpers to be had. Another jump shooter was not what the Spurs needed in that series.

Except that TP did have open jumpers. He didn't take or hit enough of them for the Mavs to respect his jumper. TP dominated during the regular season by penetrating and creating havoc in the paint. The '06 Spurs are not the same team without TP marauding the lane. In TP's defense, he was hurt and banged up. If he hits his normal shooting percentage of 55%, the Spurs win the series. Unfortunately, he wasn't able to attack the basket. Against the Mavs, he hit 54-128 in field goals which is a 42% clip. With Manu struggling with his three point shot in the first three games, the Spurs didn't have anyone penetrating into the paint on a regular basis.



There's already a formula to beat the 2005 Phoenix Suns, and at least the Suns were smart enough to figure that out.

I don't think you can use that blueprint against the Mavs. The Spurs took the first two games in Phoenix without Joe Johnson. The series was pretty much over at that point.

With Joe Johnson, the Spurs were 2-1 letting Amare get his. The '06 Mavs also had a much deeper team than '05 Suns.

[wildbill2u]

This thread cracks me up because AHF assumes that if Duncan plays center we'll see the version of small ball that we saw in the WCF. That's simply not true. It won't be Finley or Horry playing PF.

If Duncan plays center, which he's done a lot in the last two years anyhow, then the Spurs would pick up an athletic PF to play along side of him.

I've always thought this would be the best route anyway, just because the other centers out there suck and Spurs need to get more athletic anyway.

I'd rather have Duncan and PF than a bad center and Duncan upfront.

Thank you. I rest my case. The lady knows her basketball. That being said, although Bonner was a step in this direction, do you have any opinions on who else might be available within the cap and not some retread?

[gameFACE]

I'm not asking for small ball. Read my posts. I'd love to get a real strong and mobile PF. The problem, as you've noted, isn't that teams have small players--many of the new breed are as big as the old style center--as much as it is mobility and athleticism on the defensive end.
I read all your posts understanding that you aren't advocating small ball. I agree with your idea of looking for a PF. It is what will ultimately would happen if Mahinmi came. And yes, Tim's title should be "center". The PF position has a lot of glamour and prestige attached to it but so fucking what. Tim is still a major force but as a center as this past playoffs proved. Make the move now. Who cares about the all star game. Didn't Tim come off the bench this past year anyway as a PF?

I'm not sure yet who the magic 4 is that would play alongside Tim. But I would try and get a guy like Pollard as a backup center.

[polandprzem]

You are saying that the spurs needs an athletic PF, and that's because Tim could not handle the rest PF of this leauge.
But as you look at those atletic fours they do not have a great permieter play so Tim will not be forced to play outside. We do not have that many Dirk Nowitzkis with a great JS.

[Borosai]

At this point, we are looking at:

Duncan - Oberto
Javtokas - Bonner - Horry
Bowen - Williams
Ginobili - Finley - Barry
Parker - Udrih

Plus any trades/signings. Am I missing someone? The Spurs definitely need to pick up a few more people, but the lineup is pretty good. I feel Javtokas is athletic enough to guard most of the PF out there, including Dirk...especially if he gets physical with him. Age is still a problem, but I have no problem with this lineup. Oberto gets more mins to see what he can do, Horry gets more rest (is that possible?) and Udrih gets more mins and a legit shot. Once they add a couple more guys, everyone will calm down.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't think you can use that blueprint against the Mavs. The Spurs took the first two games in Phoenix without Joe Johnson. The series was pretty much over at that point.

With Joe Johnson, the Spurs were 2-1 letting Amare get his. The '06 Mavs also had a much deeper team than '05 Suns.
It's not a blueprint to use against the mavs, it's the blueprint to use against the Spurs. 2005 Amare dominates, Suns lose. 2006 Duncan dominates, Spurs lose.

[Bruno]

You are saying that the spurs needs an athletic PF, and that's because Tim could not handle the rest PF of this leauge.
But as you look at those atletic fours they do not have a great permieter play so Tim will not be forced to play outside. We do not have that many Dirk Nowitzkis with a great JS.

It's not only playing outside, it's staying out of foul troubles : we need to keeep Duncan on the court.

Just take the Clippers as an example : will you put Duncan on Brand or on Kaman ?
I'll put him on Kaman, he will be in foul troubles if he defends Brand.

Just look at all the western conference teams : Duncan will defend the opposite C against most teams.
They guy who plays with Duncan should be able to defend PFs (like Odom, Dirk, Brand...) and Yao : I rather have a PF to do that than a C.

[polandprzem]

It's not only playing outside, it's staying out of foul troubles : we need to keeep Duncan on the court.

Just take the Clippers as an example : will you put Duncan on Brand or on Kaman ?
I'll put him on Kaman, he will be in foul troubles if he defends Brand.

Just look at all the western conference teams : Duncan will defend the opposite C against most teams.
They guy who plays with Duncan should be able to defend PFs (like Odom, Dirk, Brand...) and Yao : I rather have a PF to do that than a C.

Okay but is haslem or Shaq the athletic PF?

To me it's too much schematic.
Maybe it is that I just don't want to move Duncan from the Forward position, I don't know. But having Duncan at Center the spurs will be forced to play more transition game and I prefer the half court offense just because it is more effective from the devensive poitn of view esp. when the spurs do not have young gunner like the suns for excample.
And the athletic PF - I don't see nobody who could fill that position for the spurs.
Ppl talking about Mahimini but come on :rolleyes plus he will not be able.
damn I hope Javtokas will translate better then I hope (hehe - whta a sentence)

[Bruno]

Okay but is haslem or Shaq the athletic PF?


Did I say athltetic PF ?
I've just said starting PF.
A true PF will be a good solution even if he isn't very athletic.



To me it's too much schematic.


Sometimes simple explications are the better.




Maybe it is that I just don't want to move Duncan from the Forward position, I don't know. But having Duncan at Center the spurs will be forced to play more transition game and I prefer the half court offense just because it is more effective from the devensive poitn of view esp. when the spurs do not have young gunner like the suns for excample.

Having Duncan at center doesn't really change our offense.
Rasho and Nazr were our 5th scoring option, I don't see how their loss will change something to our offense.



And the athletic PF - I don't see nobody who could fill that position for the spurs.
Ppl talking about Mahimini but come on :rolleyes plus he will not be able.
damn I hope Javtokas will translate better then I hope (hehe - whta a sentence)

We haven't any player (a C or a PF) able to start with Duncan in our roster today.
Finding a PF via trade or Fa won't be harder than finding a C, Spurs have the choice to decide where Duncan will play next year.

[polandprzem]

We haven't any player (a C or a PF) able to start with Duncan in our roster today.
Finding a PF via trade or Fa won't be harder than finding a C, Spurs have the choice to decide where Duncan will play next year.

I think they are looking at the market and can see the posibilieties. I don't think they main concern is where we want Duncan to play (position). They will take the best possible player.

If they don't need an athletic PF, so they need someone who can give 6 fouls? Because you said that the main prpoblem will be (for Duncan) to stay infront of the ppl and not getting fouledout.
Is it?

Cause any other big man (center) can also give 6 fouls but maybe will be the defensive force inside the box. Shotblocking ability and stuff.

If that's a big difference? Having a PF or a center in a frontcourt with Timmy?

What I'm thinking about having TD @ the C position is taht we (the spurs) are adopting to the NBA new style of play. Small ball can be efective, so either we need a athletic PF or a center called Razr.
Or we might find a center playing like Jermaine or Dwight or Amare or Ben

[Bruno]

If they don't need an athletic PF, so they need someone who can give 6 fouls? Because you said that the main prpoblem will be (for Duncan) to stay infront of the ppl and not getting fouledout.
Is it?

Cause any other big man (center) can also give 6 fouls but maybe will be the defensive force inside the box. Shotblocking ability and stuff.

If that's a big difference? Having a PF or a center in a frontcourt with Timmy?


The difference is that the center who plays with Duncan won't be able to defend the opposite PF. The shotblocking ability is useless if the player isn't able to play decent man to man defense.
The difference between Nazr/Rasho and Haslem is that Haslem was able to defend on Dirk.



What I'm thinking about having TD @ the C position is taht we (the spurs) are adopting to the NBA new style of play. Small ball can be efective, so either we need a athletic PF or a center called Razr.
Or we might find a center playing like Jermaine or Dwight or Amare or Ben

Duncan at center isn't smallball : Finley at PF was smallball.
And I don't know what you want to say by saying an athletic PF because Haslem is an athletic player.

[polandprzem]

The difference is that the center who plays with Duncan won't be able to defend the opposite PF. The shotblocking ability is useless if the player isn't able to play decent man to man defense.
The difference between Nazr/Rasho and Haslem is that Haslem was able to defend on Dirk.
So how much less "can't guard other Pf's" is Shaq compering to Duncan?

The only reason you want Duncan to play at center is a unability to defend vs the Pf's either it will be the foul trouble or letting the other PF to slash into the basket or shoot from outside. If the spurs wil get a center than you have a help defense.
To me having a 6'11" Duncan and a (probably) 6'10" PF is not what I want to see in the lineup in the defense.
You probably will say : why? you have not taht much of seven footer who can do the demage.
I say: why don't we just "scare" them off the basket and let the shoot?

Well realy I dn't care if it's gonna to be a PF or a center he must to be a good defender. It might be your version of a "random selected Power Forward" or my version of a "plastic (athletic) center".

You think right now Tim can't guard the other PF. okay. I think that he can guard most of the PF's in the leauge - still.



Duncan at center isn't smallball : Finley at PF was smallball.
And I don't know what you want to say by saying an athletic PF because Haslem is an athletic player.

Well small ball because of less halfcourt play. They will have to run more IMO.

[Bruno]

So how much less "can't guard other Pf's" is Shaq compering to Duncan?

Have you ever seen Shaq at PF ?



To me having a 6'11" Duncan and a (probably) 6'10" PF is not what I want to see in the lineup in the defense.
You probably will say : why? you have not taht much of seven footer who can do the demage.
I say: why don't we just "scare" them off the basket and let the shoot?

You're right team defense is better with Duncan + center but man to man defense is better with Duncan + PF.
All in all, Duncan + PF is the better solution to me.



I think that he can guard most of the PF's in the leauge - still.

I don't care if Duncan can guard 20 of the 30 starting PFs.
The thing to look is : "is Duncan able to defend against PF from teams we will meet in playoffs ?"
Just look at the other 7 western playoff teams of this year : Duncan at PF is a bad fit against 4 of them : Dallas, Clippers, Lakers and Phoenix.




Well small ball because of less halfcourt play. They will have to run more IMO.

With Duncan at center, we will just be able to run more. Being able to run doesn't mean that we will run more.

[polandprzem]

Have you ever seen Shaq at PF ?
Nope, but he is worst in defending centers then Tim defending PF's


You're right team defense is better with Duncan + center but man to man defense is better with Duncan + PF.
All in all, Duncan + PF is the better solution to me.
Okay. Everything is effective when leads to success.


I don't care if Duncan can guard 20 of the 30 starting PFs.
The thing to look is : "is Duncan able to defend against PF from teams we will meet in playoffs ?"
Just look at the other 7 western playoff teams of this year : Duncan at PF is a bad fit against 4 of them : Dallas, Clippers, Lakers and Phoenix.
Yup, but still...are we talking about the 35+ PF ? In the whole season? Cause still the spurs can be effective with a center playing like 20-30 minutes and having a PF of the bench. Just like the spurs did with Horry the previous 2 years (with one successfull).
[Are we talking hypotetical or are we talking about PF which the spurs may get?]
I do agree that we have to match those teams athleticism, but still - it depends what kind of center the spurs can get? A Wilcox kind of guy or a Rasho, J.James kind og guy?


With Duncan at center, we will just be able to run more. Being able to run doesn't mean that we will run more.
Yup that will give some options.
But sometimes you can run with centers and sometimes you can't run with Pf's.

How much does the NBA has changed? Years and years ago nobody would force centers to run.

[furry_spurry]

Duncan at center isn't small ball at all.
Duncan at center with a legit PF (and not Finley) is way better than Duncan at PF with a legit center.
Bingo!

Rasho spent a great deal of this past season guarding PFs The Spurs never use Duncan to guard the primary scoring big man on the opposing team. Nowdays that guy is often the PF and we would put Rasho on him and Duncan on the C anyway-- ex. Bosh, Howard, KG,... Duncan covered many a center this season. I never quite understood why people were so surprised to see him on Diop/Dampier in the play-offs. The problem was that we coudln't switch Rasho over onto their PF- Dirk- and Horry who we would have hoped could have done that just didn't work out well or get all that much of a chance.

[wildbill2u]

Most good teams in the league now have two good forwards and so-so centers because there aren't many great centers around.

You want proof: 1.We were able to get rid of Rasho and NAZR and we KNOW they aren't great.
2. Duncan at center was able to dominate the Mavs center, getting them in foul trouble and scoring at will. But they had some pretty good forwards and he didn't have enough help at those positions.
3. Who are the other premier centers? Pretty short list IMO. Shaq and Brand. Wallace might have a year or so left.