Damn, Putin gets it...

[Yonivore]

...why not the Demoncrats?


Putin: Terror Attacks Aimed at Bush (http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041018/ap_on_re_eu/russia_us_election_1)

[ididnotnothat]

Since when did you begin to care what other leaders think?
You don't give a hoot about what Germany, or France or Spain thinks.
What makes Putin so special?

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

What's funny is that poll by newspapers around the world that was in the Sunday paper.

The only countries who favor Bush over Kerry are ones where extensive terrorism has taken place (Israel, Russia).

Think maybe they know something?

[Yonivore]

Since when did you begin to care what other leaders think?
You don't give a hoot about what Germany, or France or Spain thinks.
What makes Putin so special?
Oh, I don't really care...I just think it's amusing that he gets it when Kerry and the Kerryistas don't.

[whottt]

Putin isn't anymore trustworhy than France or Germany...

But Putin shares our view that terrorist ass needs to be kicked, not kissed...and therefore his opinion carries more weight than France.

On top of that...if I had to pick an ally in a war...I'd take the Russians over the French any day of the week.

The Russians may not be trustworthy, but those mother fuckers have a fighting tradition in wars almost as good as ours.

I'd definitely take the Russians over Germany as an ally...

The Russians were our ally in WWI and WWII, the Germans were who we fought.

The Russians were every bit as much of a factor in the Allies winning WWII as Great Britain and America...France was a pissboy that had to be kicked and dragged along in the war effort...even in the liberation their own country.

The Russians gave their own lives in fighting Hitler...France gave ours.

Russia is not trustworthy...but then neither are France and Germany and the Russians are a much better millitary ally than France and Germany.

When it comes time to kick some terrorist ass Russia will show up to fight...France won't. And Germany will probably be opposing us.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

a Bush defeat "could lead to the spread of terrorism to other parts of the world."


- Putin

Someone else gets it, thank God.

[ChumpDumper]

"Russia was always against the military operations in Iraq," he said.Does he get that part too?

[whottt]

That's because he was being bought off by the OFF program as well.

Unlike Russia, France and Germany didn't just get royally fucked over in the Cold War. France and Germany are supposed to be our friends. Russia has never been anything but a rival. Besides we fucked the Russians over with the Chechnyans..their stance on the Iraq war has much more justification than France and Germany.

Russia is expected to be a shithead, France and Germany aren't. Russia faces many of the same problems we do...the fact that Putin supports Bush, in light of the OFF scandal which implicates him, says loads about the threat of terrorism. Putin has absolutely no reason to support Bush other than the fact that he feels the war on terror is a real cause and Bush truly is the better man for the job.

And Russia is more of a Democracy(even under Putin) than France.

[JoeChalupa]

I wouldn't Russia into anything with Putin.

But I see your point Yonivore but I'm don't care if the Bushites like him.

[whottt]

I wouldn't Russia into anything with Putin.


Yet you and your candidate advocate running to Germany and France and seeking their approval like a puppydog...

They just as untrustworthy as the Russians...the difference is that we know better than to fully trust the Russians.

[JoeChalupa]

Okay, what ever you say.
Kerry didn't say he would request permission from Germany or France.
Holy Moses, smell the roses!!

Is there any other kind of trust? You either do or you don't.

[boutons]

"France and Germany are supposed to be our friends"

And as true friends (not ass-kissing lap dogs looking to be bought off with US contracts and investments later) who have suffered 100s of years of wars on their own soils and who remembered the USA/Viet Nam quaqmire, they did gave the USA the advice, now proven beyond any doubt to be the correct advice, NOT to start a war in Iraq.

But shrub, fatuous faux chicken-shit macho, wanted the Iraq war NO MATTER WHAT, and he wanted it from day he took office, and unconscionably exploited 9/11 to start it.

[whottt]

Okay, what ever you say.
Kerry didn't say he would request permission from Germany or France.
Holy Moses, smell the roses!!

Well then who else is Kerry referring to when he says he'll rebuild the coalitions?

Micronesia?



Is there any other kind of trust? You either do or you don't.

The enemy of my enemy is my friend...there's that kind...It worked well enough with Russia in both WWI and WWII, both of which would not have been won without the Russians...even though we didn't like each other.

The danger is that there is this perception that France and Germany are trustworthy allies with our best interests at heart...they aren't. They have their own agenda and when you guys open your eyes you will see that their agenda is to weaken our economic power and increase their own. Basically the same thing as the Russians...aint no crime...but too many Americans think Germany and France(the only two major Cold War allies to oppose the war) are trustworthy. And Kerry is one of them...and that is the danger.

[whottt]

"France and Germany are supposed to be our friends"

And as true friends (not ass-kissing lap dogs looking to be bought off with US contracts and investments later) who have suffered 100s of years of wars on their own soils and who remembered the USA/Viet Nam quaqmire

Wars they started themselves by trying to colonize and control the middle east(just like they are trying to do now)..Wars they drug us into.


France started the Vietnam quagmire, Vietnam was a French colony...where are you learning your history from?

The two countries that captured and imprisoned the most Jews in WWII were France and Germany.





they did gave the USA the advice, now proven beyond any doubt to be the correct advice, NOT to start a war in Iraq.

Actually what's being proven is that France was selling Iraq weapons against the sanctions and was bought off to oppose the war...as was Russia, as was Germany, as was China...and you think they are truste allies. Good lord.


But shrub, fatuous faux chicken-shit macho, wanted the Iraq war NO MATTER WHAT, and he wanted it from day he took office, and unconscionably exploited 9/11 to start it.

Funny, his father adhered to the resolution not to invade Iraq in the Persian Gulf War(because it went against the will of the coalition)...Doesn't look like an Oil motivated war to me.

And Bush Jr..tried to make it a UN operation in the first place...that is not the actions of someone going over there for Oil Contracts. Think about it.

France and Germany said they would veto millitary action in Iraq even if Saddam had WMD. They said there was no set of conditions under which they would send their troops into Iraq, even if he had been linked to terrorism, even if he had WMD...and that reveals just how truly stupid Kerry is. They laughed in his face when he claimed he could get them to add troops to Iraq...as did Iran when Kerry said he would give them nuclear fuel. They were not our allies in any way shape or form and you are clueless if you don't see it.

[boutons]

"France and Germany are trustworthy allies with our best interests at heart"

It was Frenchman who said, I paraphrase, "countries don't have friends, only interests", which is very similar in thrust to "the enemies of my enemies are my friends".

shrub started the war in Iraq for his own interests (which were/are not America's interests), not for the sake of any other countries, nor for the world, nor for "democracy and freedom", blah, blah, blah.

And France and Germany opposed the war FOR THEIR OWN INTERESTS. How can anybody find this surprising?

It was IN AMERICA'S INTEREST to enter WWII in Europe, and IN AMERICA'S INTEREST to launch the Marshall Plan.

It's hypocritical to claim that the USA can do whatever the fuck it wants for its own interests, but other countries are untrustworthy and traitorous for doing the same.

[JoeChalupa]

Posted by Whottt:

Well then who else is Kerry referring to when he says he'll rebuild the coalitions?

Micronesia?

Rebuilding coalitions doesn't mean asking for their permission.

[whottt]

"France and Germany are trustworthy allies with our best interests at heart"

It was Frenchman who said, I paraphrase, "countries don't have friends, only interests", which is very similar in thrust to "the enemies of my enemies are my friends".

Exactly and more or less that is true....however America has a very altrustic record with democracies that is closer to true friendship than any other national relationship in history. No we aren't perfect and we have fucked up in the past...but not to near the degree France and Germany have been corrupt.


shrub started the war in Iraq for his own interests (which were/are not America's interests), not for the sake of any other countries, nor for the world, nor for "democracy and freedom", blah, blah, blah.

Speculation and demonization without any factual basis...we were attacked on 911, Saddam was an enemy of the US who had nuclear ambitions and he was linked to terrorists.

And everyone, including France, thought Saddam had WMD.




And France and Germany opposed the war FOR THEIR OWN INTERESTS. How can anybody find this surprising?

I don't...what I find surprising is people who think we should seek their approval before acting in our own.


It was IN AMERICA'S INTEREST to enter WWII in Europe, and IN AMERICA'S INTEREST to launch the Marshall Plan.

It was also in America's interest to start kicking the ass of the despotic rulers of the mideast whose brutal human rights conditions, poverty, rampant corruption and lack of educational system was spawning a deadly terrorist threat. Despots that were placed in power by France among others.

You go look at the countries that France and Germany, even GB, have defeated in wars...and tell me if those are countries you want to live...

OTOH, go look at the ones America has defeated in Wars...I'll give you a hint...start with France and Germany.

America is not an empiracle power...it never has been, it is the single most benevolent military power in World History.

France is an empiracle and colonial power right now...go look at what is happening the Ivory Coast, go look at what is happening in French Polynesia, go look at what is happening in Algeria.



It's hypocritical to claim that the USA can do whatever the fuck it wants for its own interests, but other countries are untrustworthy and traitorous for doing the same.

Um read this thread...I don't think you'll see many Republicans acting like the Russians are good trustworthy allies...OTOH I see many liberals suffering under the severe delusion that France and Germany are.

[JoeChalupa]

I think most of us are delusional in one sense or another it just depends on what you want to see.

[CosmicCowboy]

It was IN AMERICA'S INTEREST to enter WWII in Europe, and IN AMERICA'S INTEREST to launch the Marshall Plan.

what a bumfucking stupid statement.

It was in the entire FREE WORLDS interest to stop the rise of Nazi Germany. You make it sound like we were just being selfish and greedy to enter WWII...

And you are smacking on the MARSHALL PLAN to rebuild Europe? Holy shit...don't you know ANY history? We could have just ignored the problems like they did after WWI and let the economic turmoil breed a new generation of fascists to fuck up Europe AGAIN...but they broke the cycle with the most benevolent rebuilding of a "conquered" country in the history of the world...

oh yeah...it was sooo selfish of America to subsidize the rebuilding of an industrial economy in war torn Europe with all new factorys and technology to directly compete against the US...damned self centered greedy Americans...

you stupid little shits need to lose the hate for America and get a little historical perspective...you disgust me.

[boutons]

"France started the Vietnam quagmire, Vietnam was a French colony ... where are you learning your history from? "

I know full well the history of the French in VN. How does the French history in VN justify or have anything to do with the USA in VN?

How does England and France having colonies in the Middle East decades earlier have anything to do with the phony US war in Iraq (as if the Shah's Iran, the CIA having placed his father on the throne, wasn't an effective US colony until Khomeini's revolution)?

At the start of the Kuwait war, at the pinacle of Saddam's oil wealth, industrial might, and Iraq's military strength, all Saddam could do was throw useless SCUDs at Israel in 1991.

Then, after 12 ensuing years of sanctions and weapons inspectors and no-fly zones, shrubs lies to us in 2002/3 that Saddam had a) WMD and b) (accurate, long range) delivery vehicules and was an immediate threat to the USA (or anybody else, even Iraq's next-door enemy Iran)?

I suspect that France and Germany knew Iraq was not the right target, that a war in the Middle East was extremely dangerous and unpredictable (never mind that shrub NEVER talked about an Iraq exit stragegy and still doesn't), and that the war would very probably be counter-productive side-show in the war on terrorism. ie, they didn't see it was not IN THEIR INTERESTS to invade Iraq.

[whottt]

you stupid little shits need to lose the hate for America and get a little historical perspective...you disgust me.

I'm telling you brah...being a democrat goes hand in hand with anti Americanism these days..They sound just like the terrorists that have no education and whose existence is defined by someone putting the Koran in one hand, a gun in the other and being told to HATE AMERICA....that's why I support Bush even though I think he is big oil, anti tech, and no environment..3 issues I have a strong stance on...

Kerry and todays crats make the Ghingriches and Pat Buchannans of the 90's look like nice middle of the road guys.

[boutons]

"It was in the entire FREE WORLDS interest to stop the rise of Nazi Germany."

But above all, the USA saw it was in the USA's interest to enter that war. Do you really think the USA would have entered that war if it were not seen to be in USA's interest?

"you are smacking on the MARSHALL PLAN to rebuild Europe?"

your words, not mine. The East coast bankers/industrialists who were running the USA in the 40's and 50's knew damn well that any Marshall Funds given to Europe would be used to buy US products, Europe's industrial capacity being in shreds, and that the USA would be re-paid 100 fold. The Marshall Plan was overwhelmingly in USA's intererst, so they did it. It wasn't saintly national charity, it was American self-interest.

"you stupid little shits"

thanks for raising the level of the forum. Personal attacks always

"need to lose the hate for America"

your words, not mine.

"and get a little historical perspective."

Mine is different from yours, for sure, so obviously it's wrong.

"..you disgust me."

If your stomach is so squeamish about alternative positions, I suggest you not follow this forum.

[whottt]

"

I know full well the history of the French in VN. How does the French history in VN justify or have anything to do with the USA in VN?

1.Because the French made no effort to set up a legitimate government in VietNam...they set up a colonial government...just like they did in Iraq(and they supported Saddam long before we did) and Syrai(their guys still rule there by the way) and Alegeria.

2.Because they puckered their butts and ran and let the Japanees brutalize them in WWII and then tried to return later on giving rise to communist sympathizers.

3.What actually dicated our entry into VietNam was the Truman doctrine...you might remember Truman...he's the democrat who Nuked Japan and championed the fight and threat of communism.

You act like Vietnam is now a success story...it has one of the highest emmigration rates in the world...it is a shit hole. Very similar to the European appointed shitholes and former Russian dominated territories that are now spawning terrorists.




How does England and France having colonies in the Middle East decades earlier have anything to do with the phony US war in Iraq (as if the Shah's Iran, the CIA having placed his father on the throne, wasn't an effective US colony until Khomeini's revolution)?

France and England created the despotic and brutal ruler systems in the mideast that rule those countries to this very day.

Saudi Ruler - British appointed
Syrian Ruler - French appointed
Iraq Ruler(and Saddam) - French appointed and later French supported.

And by the way...you are incredibly ignorant of what happened in Iran...The Shah line of rulers were put in place by the British, the CIA didn't even exist when this happened...Iran was a pseudo British colony until WWII...and the Shah's line never stopped ruling it.

We did not have anything to due with the Shah coming to power in Iran.

In any case...Irans despots were the humanitarian creme of the crop in that reigon of the world.

I don't think you'll find many Iranians living in the USA that say Iran is better off now than it was under the Shah.





At the start of the Kuwait war, at the pinacle of Saddam's oil wealth, industrial might, and Iraq's military strength, all Saddam could do was throw useless SCUDs at Israel in 1991.

You almost sound disappointed. You'd have preferred he be able to launch nukes? You are the only person in the entire world that doesn't believe Saddam was a deadly nuclear threat in the Persian Gulf War.


Then, after 12 ensuing years of sanctions and weapons inspectors and no-fly zones, shrubs lies to us in 2002/3 that Saddam had a) WMD and b) (accurate, long range) delivery vehicules and was an immediate threat to the USA (or anybody else, even Iraq's next-door enemy Iran)?

Don't forget those sanctions were abused by the UN and Saddam, they were used as a weapon against the Iraqi people and as an excuse to starve them...Guess who tapped into that to recruit terrorists? Read a speech by Osama sometime.


I suspect that France and Germany knew Iraq was not the right target, that a war in the Middle East was extremely dangerous and unpredictable (never mind that shrub NEVER talked about an Iraq exit stragegy and still doesn't), and that the war would very probably be counter-productive side-show in the war on terrorism. ie, they didn't see it was not IN THEIR INTERESTS to invade Iraq.

Any military conflict is dangerous to fucking France cmon...they are the kings of capitulation...their greatest contribution to the world is the word "surrender".

[CosmicCowboy]

But above all, the USA saw it was in the USA's interest to enter that war. Do you really think the USA would have entered that war if it were not seen to be in USA's interest?

The US was INTENSELY divided over entering the war in Europe....Have you ever heard the term "isolationist"?...congress was polarized and the american public was polarized despite the fact that most realized it was the "right thing to do" to stop Nazi Germanys ambitions of world conquest...don't disparage the hundreds of thousands of American lives lost to free Europe...I don't care how you try to spin it...It wasn't war for oil, or war for world domination...it was a war for FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY....


The East coast bankers/industrialists who were running the USA in the 40's and 50's knew damn well that any Marshall Funds given to Europe would be used to buy US products, Europe's industrial capacity being in shreds, and that the USA would be re-paid 100 fold. The Marshall Plan was overwhelmingly in USA's intererst, so they did it. It wasn't saintly national charity, it was American self-interest.

They "East coast bankers and industrialists", huh?...why don't you just go ahead and say "jews" and get your little insecurities and conspiracy theorys out in the open?

and we did the Marshall plan so we could sell them some American industrial goods?...greedy capitalists huh?...We sell/lease/give them STATE OF THE ART industrial technology to compete with our own factories on the world market? You are right...they didn't have any "old" technology...it was all blown up...but many of our factories were still "old" technology...and we rebuilt them with the latest technologies so they could compete immediately on the world market and revitalize their war torn economies...do you really think those "greedy east coast bankers and industrialists" didn't know that the benefit of short term profits on these sales were a drop in the bucket compared to the economic ramifications of competing with them in the future for world markets? If they were "greedy" they would have left them penniless and agricultural instead of giving them the tools to rebuild their economies...

[whottt]

"I

Mine is different from yours, for sure, so obviously it's wrong.


It is wrong....just about every current shithole in the world was first a colony of Britain, France or a former Sovier controlled territory. We, Australia and India are about the only exceptions.

Algeria - France
Sudan - France
Haiti - France
Fuck all of Africa right now is France, Germany and GB.
Syria - France
Iraq - France
Saudi Arabia - GB
Israel - GB(we weren't anything close to an ally of Israel when that country was formed...that was the UN and GB at work right there buddy.
Iran - GB
Pakistan - GB
Chechnya - Russia
All those fucked up stans - Russia


Now let's look at the countries America has actually worked with to establish a legitimate government:
France
Germany
Japan
South Korea
El Salvador
Afghanistan is on the fast track to recovery.

No doubt in my mind which country is better at doing this sort of thing...

Those colonial powers were totally dedicated to their self interests, they didn't give two shits about the fate of those people...and our worst crime is following their lead of supporting despots in that region of the world...they created this situation in the middle east, not us.

For all of Europes whining about human rights...they view those people, much like many of our board liberals view them, as savages incapable of embracing a free society and best left to despotic rule. America has never embraced that philosophy, we tried it to pacify our anti war protestors and Europe. It doesn't work. Democracy does.


And Bush isn't near the demon you guys are painting him to be. There's a fine line between liberalism, elitism, anarchism and anti-americanism...and sadly..as a predominantely democratic voter in the past...the Democratic party is now on the wrong side off all of those things by association.

[Yonivore]

Prior to WW I, it was all under the control of descendants of Queen Victoria. The English King, the German Kaiser, and the Russian Tsar were all first cousins...their mothers being sisters (to each other) and daughters of Queen Victoria.

You want to blame someone for the mess we have, blame her.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

they did gave the USA the advice, now proven beyond any doubt to be the correct advice, NOT to start a war in Iraq.

For 1.8 billion (what France got), I bet there'd be a lot of people who would stand up at the UN and say what Saddam wanted to hear.


Cosmic -

And like WWII, today it is in the best interest of the world for the US (and other countries to get in line) to defeat radical Islam. That means Osama, Zarqawi, Assad, Iran, and yes even Saddam.

Unfortunately some people have this small-minded (typical liberal mindset) view that only includes what's going on today and what's in it for them.

One day (probably 50 years from now) you'll realize 9/11 wasn't some anti-Bush bent, it was the opening shot in an epic war between radical Islam and the globalized, modernized, West.

The light bulb just came on in Moscow after Beslan, and the sooner the rest of the world figures out it's in their best interests to exterminate radical Islam, the better off (and the better possibility of this world still being a decent place for your and my grandkids to live) we will all be for it.

[Man Mountain]

Putin gets it because they Chechnyans blew up that school. Everyone knows that when you are at war you'd much rather have Bush on your side than Kerry. Kerry is a girlie man as my boy Arnold would say :)

[Hook Dem]

Putin gets it because they Chechnyans blew up that school. Everyone knows that when you are at war you'd much rather have Bush on your side than Kerry. Kerry is a girlie man as my boy Arnold would say :)
I'm certain Putin could whip Kerry's & Chirac's asses. :lol

[Man Mountain]

Funny my man funny :)

[JoeChalupa]

It takes more than a pretzel to take John Kerry down.