Holting Pattern v1.1

[picnroll]

Here we go again boys and girls after the unfuckingmitigating disaster of Holting Pattern 1.0 with the Kidd pimping, the Spurs ended up with their brilliant planning by picking up Rasho Nesterovic plus Robert Horry who has been the single biggest reason the Spurs got jacked out of the '04 and '06 playoffs. Add an added bonus of passing on Josh Howard to save cap space. Trading the pick to the Suns.

We now have Holting Pattern 1.1. Not only does the new Holting Pattern hamstring the Spurs from adding players looking for more than a two year deal this year but the fun continues next year when the Spurs have to find guys who'll take one year deals. Welcome to Holting Pattern 1.1. I hope the front office has a better clue this time around because last time they sucked.

[violentkitten]

one wonders what the angle is. is it simple posturing for the negotiations with javtokas? are they afraid duncan will walk in '08? are they planning for the '08 free agent class (the ones worth pursuing will be restricted free agents or signed to extensions)?

[ducks]

atleast next year they have a first round pick and bucks second round pick if they do nto trade them

[Solid D]

I wouldn't underestimate the fact that the Spurs seem to be one of the few NBA organizations that have vision and they are working a plan that extends beyond the profitability model.

It seems to be an excellence model....which would include, but not be limited to, profitability.

[violentkitten]

maybe it's just the realization that with duncan, ginobili, and parker and the current cast for the next 2 years that the team will be good enough to be considered a contender and make at least the 2nd round of the playoffs.

why spend more?

[T Park]

plus Robert Horry who has been the single biggest reason the Spurs got jacked out of the '04 and '06 playoffs.

so his contributions in 05 mean jack shit.

[timvp]

You would think by now that the Spurs would realize that having cap space is overrated. They never get who they are going after and along the way, they lose out on much more talented players.

Get talent when you can and how you can. If you suddenly want to change your roster, trade that talent for other talent. Don't rely on free agency. Who is the biggest free agent the Spurs ever signed? Brent Barry?

This clearing cap space is lame and will probably end up costing the Spurs again.

[Lebowski Brickowski]

I wouldn't underestimate the fact that the Spurs seem to be one of the few NBA organizations that have vision and they are working a plan that extends beyond the profitability model.

It seems to be an excellence model....which would include, but not be limited to, profitability.
:lol
No holding pattern for raising ticket prices, just for adding salaries.

[MajorMike]

I gotta tell you... I have never seen such a bunch of negative ninnys year-in-and-year out in regards to the Spurs roster. You badmouth SJax. You badouth Rasho. You badmouth Nazr. You praise Horry. You want SJax back. You badmouth Bonner. You want Rasho back. You badmouth Jeffries. You madmouth Elson. You wish we could have Jeffries instead of Elson. You badmouth Horry.

I'm just glad 1) you aren't actually calling the shots, and 2) these guys don't read these boards.

Y'all sound like uo fans.

[Obstructed_View]

I love that we are now a fanbase that cries about winning only one championship in three seasons.

[timvp]

I wouldn't underestimate the fact that the Spurs seem to be one of the few NBA organizations that have vision and they are working a plan that extends beyond the profitability model.

It seems to be an excellence model....which would include, but not be limited to, profitability.

I like the model where the Spurs main focus is winning.

[LEONARD]

:lol
No holding pattern for raising ticket prices, just for adding salaries.

Cuban spends AND reduced ticket prices for next season... :fro

[timvp]

I love that we are now a fanbase that cries about winning only one championship in three seasons.

With Duncan, Manu and Parker, there's no reason why this team doesn't win the next two championships. Instead, it appears that the Spurs will be posturing for the 2009-10 season.

[T Park]

I love that we are now a fanbase that cries about winning only one championship in three seasons.

spurs fans have now turned into george steinbrenners.

[Spurminator]

Is this sudden conclusion that the Spurs are freeing up cap space for 2008 based on any actual communication from the Spurs or anyone close to the team? Or just conjecture?

I haven't read through all of the threads.

[Obstructed_View]

I like the model where the Spurs main focus is winning.
Yeah, all these trips to the lottery are starting to suck.

[violentkitten]

so spurs fans are spoiled because they dont want the ownership getting cheap through the rest of a nba legend's career? man fuck you ownership asskissers. it's drones like you who allow the spurs to get by with less.

[T Park]

No holding pattern for raising ticket prices

whos ticket prices are getting raised.

Mine haven't been raised since they moved into the new building.

In fact the went down a few bucks.

[violentkitten]

i'd pay a little more to win now

[Solid D]

I like the model where the Spurs main focus is winning.

The last data point is a franchise-best 63 wins and a loss in a very close (classic) playoff series. I don't think Spurs' leadership has demonstrated a loss of focus yet, in meaningful numbers and results, from their vision.

[T Park]

Is this sudden conclusion that the Spurs are freeing up cap space for 2008 based on any actual communication from the Spurs or anyone close to the team? Or just conjecture?

I haven't read through all of the threads.

Pretty much worrysome bullshit they are pulling out of their asses.

[Kori Ellis]

I gotta tell you... I have never seen such a bunch of negative ninnys year-in-and-year out in regards to the Spurs roster. You badmouth SJax. You badouth Rasho. You badmouth Nazr. You praise Horry. You want SJax back. You badmouth Bonner. You want Rasho back. You badmouth Jeffries. You madmouth Elson. You wish we could have Jeffries instead of Elson. You badmouth Horry.

I'm just glad 1) you aren't actually calling the shots, and 2) these guys don't read these boards.

Y'all sound like uo fans.

Year in and year out? Didn't you just get here?

Anyway, a lot of people (i.e. Sequspur) complain all the time.

But I don't see what's wrong with people being worried right now that the Spurs are looking toward people like Francisco Elson to be a starting center.

I don't know about you, but I'm not please thinking about the possibility of the bigmen being Tim and Elson backed up by Horry, Oberto and Bonner. That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.

And if the Spurs just want a 2M scrub like Elson. I don't get why they don't go for one of the scrubs that is a) younger, b) a better defender and/or c) unrestricted.

[Obstructed_View]

With Duncan, Manu and Parker, there's no reason why this team doesn't win the next two championships. Instead, it appears that the Spurs will be posturing for the 2009-10 season.
With Rasho and Nazr, or without the team spotting the Mavericks game 2, there's no reason the team isn't celebrating this year's championship. The Spurs have developing talent that they haven't brought to the team yet, and they are following the exact same pattern they've always followed, which will make them a top team until the 2009 season anyway.

[timvp]

Is this sudden conclusion that the Spurs are freeing up cap space for 2008 based on any actual communication from the Spurs or anyone close to the team? Or just conjecture?

I haven't read through all of the threads.

The Spurs are following the same patterns we've seen before. The Spurs sign players to short contracts to open up salary cap room in the upcoming years. Two years ago, the Spurs were only offering four-year contracts. Last year they were offering three year contracts. This year it's two year contracts. Next year it'll be one year contracts.

Some old ploy that didn't work last time.

[T Park]

Id love to know when this team's revenue stream became the Yankees or Knicks.

[Kori Ellis]

With Rasho and Nazr, or without the team spotting the Mavericks game 2, there's no reason the team isn't celebrating this year's championship. The Spurs have developing talent that they haven't brought to the team yet, and they are following the exact same pattern they've always followed, which will make them a top team until the 2009 season anyway.

Like Scola? Who will probably never be a Spur?

Karaulov who is a bust?

Sanikidze who hasn't played basketball in a year?

Javtokas, who doesn't have a deal yet but was being reported a done deal?

[MoSpur]

I think the Spurs will be fine. People here worry and whine too much.

[Obstructed_View]

I don't know about you, but I'm not please thinking about the possibility of the bigmen being Tim and Elson backed up by Horry, Oberto and Bonner. That sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.
I agree, but I personally would have at least thought Nazr OR Rasho at very least would have been a good idea. Some of the same people who have nothing good to say about either of them are the ones bad mouthing the organization for not being able to come up with someone better to replace them, even though those someones don't exist.

[picnroll]

I wouldn't underestimate the fact that the Spurs seem to be one of the few NBA organizations that have vision and they are working a plan that extends beyond the profitability model.

It seems to be an excellence model....which would include, but not be limited to, profitability.
Are you saying that the Holting pattern moves of '03 were a success?

Spurs success was Parker, Ginobili and Bowen. The cap clearing moves of '03 were a long term failure which have put the Spurs in a position of no depth and no tradeable assests beyond the core.

[timvp]

Id love to know when this team's revenue stream became the Yankees or Knicks.

It's not about revenue streams. The Spurs are not offering long-term contracts. Those cost Holt the same today that a short-term contract will cost. The only difference is that the Spurs will be opening up salary cap room again to go after free agents in a few years instead of concentrating on adding talent now.

[violentkitten]

Id love to know when this team's revenue stream became the Yankees or Knicks.


http://www.forbes.com/lists/2005/32/323002.html

The skinny

The Spurs have become the NBA's premier franchise on and the court having won three titles in seven years and their two stars Tim Duncan and Tony Parker locked up under long-term contracts. The team's home, the SBC Center, gets rave reviews. The state-of-the-art arena was financed largely with taxpayer money. But the bulk of the arena's revenue will go to the team, allowing the small-market franchise to be one of the league's most valuable teams.

[Kori Ellis]

Anyway, I'm going to try to keep faith that there's some other plan outside Francisco Elson plus maybe Javtokas.

[violentkitten]

Are you saying that the Holting pattern moves of '03 were a success?

Spurs success was Parker, Ginobili and Bowen. The cap clearing moves of '03 were a long term failure which have put the Spurs in a position of no depth and no tradeable assests beyond the core.

the holting pattern did make it possible to re-sign manu.

[Bruno]

We now have Holting Pattern 1.1. Not only does the new Holting Pattern hamstring the Spurs from adding players looking for more than a two year deal this year but the fun continues next year when the Spurs have to find guys who'll take one year deals. Welcome to Holting Pattern 1.1. I hope the front office has a better clue this time around because last time they sucked.

I don't believe at all in this theory, Don't forget too that reports say that Spurs have ofered a 4 years deal to Pryz.

I still think that Spurs will get a quality big via trade (likely a big with a quite big contract because bigs with small contracts have too much trade value). If that happen, it will be fun to remember recations from a lot of posters.

[T Park]

But the bulk of the arena's revenue will go to the team, allowing the small-market franchise to be one of the league's most valuable teams.


Yeah Im sure the revenue they get from the arena just makes them like the Yankees.


Keep believeing that Marcus.


Go root for the fucking Knicks already.

[LEONARD]

Like Scola? Who will probably never be a Spur?

Karaulov who is a bust?

Sanikidze who hasn't played basketball in a year?

Javtokas, who doesn't have a deal yet but was being reported a done deal?

Kori...keepin' it real :fro

[violentkitten]

I don't believe at all in this theory, Don't forget too that reports say that Spurs have ofered a 4 years deal to Pryz.

I still think that Spurs will get a quality big via trade (likely a big with a quite big contract because bigs with small contracts have too much trade value). If that happen, it will be fun to remember recations from a lot of posters.


wasnt it funny how the spurs seemed to be unwilling to go that extra year with their first round of free agent center targets? it was as if, yeah, we're offering...yeah....

[timvp]

I don't believe at all in this theory, Don't forget too that reports say that Spurs have ofered a 4 years deal to Pryz.

I still think that Spurs will get a quality big via trade (likely a big with a quite big contract because bigs with small contracts have too much trade value). If that happen, it will be fun to remember recations from a lot of posters.

Offering Przybilla a 4-year deal and offering Zo a $3M deal were token moves. The Spurs knew there was no way in hell that they land the players offering what they were offering. I'm not sure what the motive was. Maybe they were just praying for a miracle.

[violentkitten]

Yeah Im sure the revenue they get from the arena just makes them like the Yankees.


Keep believeing that Marcus.


Go root for the fucking Knicks already.


their pockets arent hurting no matter how much you would like to pretend they are. we're not talking about taking on another $70 million in annual payroll so enough with the knicks comparison.

[Obstructed_View]

Like Scola? Who will probably never be a Spur?

Karaulov who is a bust?

Sanikidze who hasn't played basketball in a year?

Javtokas, who doesn't have a deal yet but was being reported a done deal?
All of those guys, and throw in Mahinmi. And the only person saying Scola will never be a Spur is his European agent. And you were the one reporting it was a done deal; forum decorum prevents you from turning around and using that as an argument. :)

[Lebowski Brickowski]

whos ticket prices are getting raised.

Mine haven't been raised since they moved into the new building.

In fact the went down a few bucks.

http://sanantonio.bizjournals.com/sanantonio/stories/2006/06/19/daily6.html?surround=lfn

The Business Journal reported in April that the 2005 NBA champion San Antonio Spurs were planning to increase the price of admission for fans hoping to see the team play in AT&T Center next season.

But the results of a new online Business Pulse Poll indicate that such a move is far less popular than the team.


The latest Pulse Poll results show that 75 percent of those who responded believe the Spurs should not raise ticket prices next season. Only 18 percent of those who responded to the survey indicated that the Spurs -- which sold out all their home games this season -- should raise ticket prices.

Another 6 percent were undecided.

Percentages may not add up to 100 percent due to rounding off of numbers.

The Spurs won a franchise-record 63 games this past regular season. But the Black & Silver fell to the Dallas Mavericks in the second round of the playoffs -- losing Game 7 in overtime.

Spurs officials admit that on-court success has led to full arenas. But at least one respondent believes winning may not be enough to offset higher prices at the gate, writing: "Make the price of tickets out of reach for the majority of the fan base and it really doesn't matter how many games they win."

Another writes: "If the market will support the increase, then I believe it is justified."

[Solid D]

Are you saying that the Holting pattern moves of '03 were a success?

Spurs success was Parker, Ginobili and Bowen. The cap clearing moves of '03 were a long term failure which have put the Spurs in a position of no depth and no tradeable assests beyond the core.

I'd say that a Championship in 2005 is a measurable result of moves made by the Spurs and not just a feeling. Yes, a Championship in the .04 '04 season would have been an even better measurable result, I'll agree with that but on-balance the graph of success doesn't reflect "failure". Long term failure has yet to be proven beyond the feelings stage.

[violentkitten]

Offering Przybilla a 4-year deal and offering Zo a $3M deal were token moves. The Spurs knew there was no way in hell that they land the players offering what they were offering. I'm not sure what the motive was. Maybe they were just praying for a miracle.


i mean, seriously. hey zo, leave south florida where your home is, where you are feted like a king, where you just won a championship and come to south texas for slightly more than the vet minimum for 2 years. the beach is only 130 miles away.

then the spurs can tell johnny boy that hey, we tried to land mourning but he said no.

[T Park]

Uh good for you,

ive already bought my tickets and they are the same price as last year.


A team raising ticket prices, wow, THAT never happens.....

[Obstructed_View]

Are you saying that the Holting pattern moves of '03 were a success?

Spurs success was Parker, Ginobili and Bowen. The cap clearing moves of '03 were a long term failure which have put the Spurs in a position of no depth and no tradeable assests beyond the core.
Dumbfuck. Who did the Spurs re-sign in '04? Parker and Ginobili? Think the Spurs needed cap space to do both of those?

[Kori Ellis]

All of those guys, and throw in Mahinmi. And the only person saying Scola will never be a Spur is his European agent. And you were the one reporting it was a done deal; forum decorum prevents you from turning around and using that as an argument. :)

I didn't report Javtokas was a done deal. Euro media did. I just repeated their reports.

Javtokas and Mahinmi are the only ones of those that I believe will ever be Spurs.

[picnroll]

the holting pattern did make it possible to re-sign manu.
The Holting Pattern probably kept the Spurs from signing Manu to a three year deal giving them full Bird rights and no fears of losing Manu.

[Kori Ellis]

Uh good for you,

ive already bought my tickets and they are the same price as last year.


A team raising ticket prices, wow, THAT never happens.....

Ticket prices have gone up the last two seasons. You must have a special deal or something.

[spurster]

http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIM/Chap5/F0503004.gif

[Bruno]

Offering Przybilla a 4-year deal and offering Zo a $3M deal were token moves. The Spurs knew there was no way in hell that they land the players offering what they were offering. I'm not sure what the motive was. Maybe they were just praying for a miracle.

Maybe too they don't want to give a 5 years deal for an injury prone Pryzbilla.
If I remember well, Detroit has turned down Pryz because he is injury prone.

[timvp]

i mean, seriously. hey zo, leave south florida where your home is, where you are feted like a king, where you just won a championship and come to south texas for slightly more than the vet minimum for 2 years. the beach is only 130 miles away.

then the spurs can tell johnny boy that hey, we tried to land mourning but he said no.

:lmao

Miami is offering Zo $2.5M. The Spurs come in trying to Out-Whataburger the Heat with a giant $3M offer.

:rollin


http://www.bryan-collegestation.org/images/Restaurants/Whataburger%20Logo.JPG

[violentkitten]

The Holting Pattern probably kept the Spurs from signing Manu to a three year deal giving them full Bird rights and no fears of losing Manu.

they signed manu to the lle in '02.

[Spurminator]

Offering Przybilla a 4-year deal and offering Zo a $3M deal were token moves. The Spurs knew there was no way in hell that they land the players offering what they were offering. I'm not sure what the motive was. Maybe they were just praying for a miracle.

That's a cop out...

[timvp]

Dumbfuck. Who did the Spurs re-sign in '04? Parker and Ginobili? Think the Spurs needed cap space to do both of those?

Not both.

[T Park]

:lol

[Solid D]

:lmao

Miami is offering Zo $2.5M. The Spurs come in trying to Out-Whataburger the Heat with a giant $3M offer.

:rollin


http://www.bryan-collegestation.org/images/Restaurants/Whataburger%20Logo.JPG

:lmao at the "Out-Whataburger" reference. Good one.

[Kori Ellis]

Anyway, I'm going to try to keep faith that there's some other plan outside Francisco Elson plus maybe Javtokas.

I'm going to just refuse to get worried about it until it's all over.

Signings just started today, so it's far from done.

And yes ... I just quoted myself. :princess

[Solid D]

I got sleep last night. :)

[violentkitten]

:lmao

Miami is offering Zo $2.5M. The Spurs come in trying to Out-Whataburger the Heat with a giant $3M offer.

:rollin


http://www.bryan-collegestation.org/images/Restaurants/Whataburger%20Logo.JPG


exactly. man if you were willing to pay nazr or pryzbilla $5 mil per why not give mourning that for 2 years? shit man you might face miami in the finals, why not weaken them as a potential rival?

[furry_spurry]

The Spurs are following the same patterns we've seen before. The Spurs sign players to short contracts to open up salary cap room in the upcoming years. Two years ago, the Spurs were only offering four-year contracts. Last year they were offering three year contracts. This year it's two year contracts. Next year it'll be one year contracts.

Very astute.

In 2004, they brought in Barry for 4 years - over Jax or Hedo who got 5 elsewhere.

Then in 2005, they brought in Oberto and Finley on 3 year deals.

I think they only want to give Javtokas a 2 year deal- hence part of the delay- and are going after someone like Elson who will take 2 years, as well. It is also part of the reason Scola can't get signed.

[Obstructed_View]

I didn't report Javtokas was a done deal. Euro media did. I just repeated their reports.

Javtokas and Mahinmi are the only ones of those that I believe will ever be Spurs.
Okay, then let's assume Scola has no value to the team whatsoever, and just focus on Javtokas and Mahinmi, who look like they could develop. They are still in the Spurs' plans. That was my point, and it's still valid. People think the Spurs aren't doing anything just because they expect the activity to come from the same places that Portland's activity comes from, but that's only if you want Portland's team. I don't.

[Obstructed_View]

Not both.
Sorry, they needed cap space for both of them plus Jason Kidd.

[K-State Spur]

the one thing we have going for us is that if the Pop and RC have something big up their sleeves, it's always 50/50 whether anybody would know until it's done.

[callo1]

Here we go again boys and girls after the unfuckingmitigating disaster of Holting Pattern 1.0 with the Kidd pimping, the Spurs ended up with their brilliant planning by picking up Rasho Nesterovic plus Robert Horry who has been the single biggest reason the Spurs got jacked out of the '04 and '06 playoffs. Add an added bonus of passing on Josh Howard to save cap space. Trading the pick to the Suns.

We now have Holting Pattern 1.1. Not only does the new Holting Pattern hamstring the Spurs from adding players looking for more than a two year deal this year but the fun continues next year when the Spurs have to find guys who'll take one year deals. Welcome to Holting Pattern 1.1. I hope the front office has a better clue this time around because last time they sucked.


Yeah, screw the front office !! I mean afterall, all they have done is lead the Spurs to 3 championships, and the most winning record of any major sports franchise in the last 10 years...oh yeah, while were at it, screw Horry and his terrible play that saved our asses in game 5 against the Pistons in the '05 Finals. Hell, if the front office knew what they were doing, they would have landed a declining talent with a monster contract like Kidd's which would have made our present position far worse.

One dumb Manu foul, or one ft away from a 4th title (yes, the Spurs would have owned the Heat) all without being able to play our bigs against the Mavs and this is the unbelievable panic crap that people post. "Oh look, the freakin sky is falling".

All we Spurs fans have to look forward to is a team that features the best big man in the league, a Tony Parker that gets better each year, and hopefully a healthier Manu.

Man I can't wait to bump posts like this come April and May.

[Obstructed_View]

And yes ... I just quoted myself. :princess
I just saw this one. :lol

[Lebowski Brickowski]

Uh good for you,

ive already bought my tickets and they are the same price as last year.


uh...good for you.
All I did was support my statement. If the FO decided against it , great! First you said prices did not increase. Then you defend the increase while denying it.

[Bruno]

BTW, it's way easier to negociate in nba when the Fo/owner has the reputation to be cheap. Just look at the amount spend by Spurs in the 03 and 04 offseason and you will realize that in fact Spurs aren't that cheap.

Take the case of Pryz, what is it easier to say :
We give you a 4 years deal instead of 5 because we want to have cap space when Duncan/Ginobili expire and because our owner is cheap .
or
We give you a 4 years deal instead of 5 because you are injury prone, not that good and you will be useless against teams like Mavs, Suns.

I know that Spurs don't get Pryz but you have more chance to get him if you claim that you give him a 4 years deal because your boss is cheap.

[furry_spurry]

Maybe a visual will help. Look at this chart. Isn't it obvious what's going on. (but don't pay attention to the third column- someone can't add)
http://www.hoopshype.com/salaries/san_antonio.htm

[violentkitten]

Yeah, screw the front office !! I mean afterall, all they have done is lead the Spurs to 3 championships, and the most winning record of any major sports franchise in the last 10 years...oh yeah, while were at it, screw Horry and his terrible play that saved our asses in game 5 against the Pistons in the '05 Finals. Hell, if the front office knew what they were doing, they would have landed a declining talent with a monster contract like Kidd's which would have made our present position far worse.

One dumb Manu foul, or one ft away from a 4th title (yes, the Spurs would have owned the Heat) all without being able to play our bigs against the Mavs and this is the unbelievable panic crap that people post. "Oh look, the freakin sky is falling".

All we Spurs fans have to look forward to is a team that features the best big man in the league, a Tony Parker that gets better each year, and hopefully a healthier Manu.

Man I can't wait to bump posts like this come April and May.


how many more could have been won? spurs fans settle too easily and the spurs know it.

[SenorSpur]

Add an added bonus of passing on Josh Howard to save cap space. Trading the pick to the Suns.




IMO, the single biggest blunder of the Holt era. If the pimpiing of JKidd led to them trading the pick and ultimately passing on Howard, it only magnifies this blunder.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Who did we really lose out on this summer that we wanted? Ben Wallace? Nazr? Bonzi? Speedy?

There really hasn't been a single free agent this summer outside of Big Ben who I thought would be all that great of an addition, and none, (including Wallace) worth the money being asked. If you could guarantee me that Wells won't revert to his old self in a non-contract year you might be able to add him to my short list too.

If the Spurs would have thrown big money and a long contract at practically any of the free agents this summer people in here would have been bitching next year about how we wasted so much payroll, and how can we possibly dump their worthless contracts (see Barry and Rasho). I can guarandamntee you that if Malik Rose was still a Spur the majority of people in here would be complaining about how sad it is that we haven't won a championship since 2003 and how horrible it is that we threw so much money at a tweener forward. If people can moan about Tony Parker needing to be traded after the year he had I'm sure they'll complain about anything.

I'm fully convinced that some people are never satisfied. Believe me, I'd love to see the Spurs go out and pick up every big name out there and pay an additional 100% of their salaries in luxury tax. That would be awesome. Let's dot the roster with a few more all-stars. Why the hell not? But I haven't seen anyone this summer who is worth the money being asked. So if the Spurs are positioning themselves to acquire some improved talent next summer, expecting a better market and hoping to have a lot more salary flexibility, I think that's a good move on management's part.

[violentkitten]

i can guarantee you that nazr mohammed as key to spurs' 3rd title is the greatest forum myth of all time.

[strangeweather]

Man I can't wait to bump posts like this come April and May.
April and May are overrated. I'd much rather be able to laugh about it next June.

[SenorSpur]

Offering Przybilla a 4-year deal and offering Zo a $3M deal were token moves. The Spurs knew there was no way in hell that they land the players offering what they were offering. I'm not sure what the motive was. Maybe they were just praying for a miracle.

I don't understand the Spurs strategy. If you like a player, if he fits your scheme and ulitmately you feel he can significantly contribute to the improvement of your team - DAMMIT GO GET HIM.

Obviously, I'm not saying they should throw crazy money at marginal talent or get into a collossal bidding war, but a guy like Pryzbilla got away because of another year of guaranteed money.

All of this troubles me because other organizations are seemingly moving swiftly and decisively from Plan A to Plan B. The Spurs are down to Plan M, much in part due to their "cheap bastardly" penny-pinching.

Just heard the Mavs are now close to signing Greg Buckner. At least they seem to have contigency plans and are moving ahead.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

i can guarantee you that nazr mohammed as key to spurs' 3rd title is the greatest forum myth of all time.


Malik Rose has really gone out and proven his doubters wrong in New York, too.

[leemajors]

Cuban spends AND reduced ticket prices for next season... :fro

yeah but what was the cost lowered to from? i tickets to a playoff game this last year for $22 a ticket. a raise to $30 is not that big a deal, since i only go to a couple of games. what are the mav ticket prices?

[violentkitten]

Malik Rose has really gone out and proven his doubters wrong in New York, too.


at least he was useful against the mavs in a playoff series.

[Lebowski Brickowski]

The Spurs are following the same patterns we've seen before. The Spurs sign players to short contracts to open up salary cap room in the upcoming years. Two years ago, the Spurs were only offering four-year contracts. Last year they were offering three year contracts. This year it's two year contracts. Next year it'll be one year contracts.

Some old ploy that didn't work last time.

That puts The Spurs on a timetable to sign Mahinmi to a long contract IF he pans out with 2 more years overseas and IF he's worth it (which is the timeframe he's on, I believe.) By then Duncan is what, 33? and still kicking ass, and the Spurs can either go after a big FA OR hopefully the Spurs will know enough to extend the 2 year contract they offer this week to Javtokas who is rocking balls by that time; plus already having Manu and Tony locked up.

Or else we have Francisco Elson and a half dead Zo. Oh yeah.....and Bonner

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

at least he was useful against the mavs in a playoff series.

Thinking a 6'5" scrub forward would have been the difference against _allas really might be the biggest forum myth of all time.

[violentkitten]

before i forget, thanks to the trade which netted the spurs a year's rental of nazr mohammed, the spurs lost two lost cost options for adding talent to the team over the last year. and they lost their small ball big. great fucking trade.

[violentkitten]

Thinking a 6'5" scrub forward would have been the difference against _allas really might be the biggest forum myth of all time.


yeah because he had never solved the matchup problem the spurs faced this year. just go.

[angel_luv]

It is nice to know I am not the only one who has been getting ansy and frustrated.

The front office frustrates me because I don't have any idea what they are thinking and what they are working to accomplish.

I frustrate me because, aside from Nazr walking, I don't know what moves I wish the Spurs would make.

These are the thoughts I am trying to process:

1)I like bringing people in but I have yet to hear of anyone realistic who has strikes me as a must have.


2) I would like to believe that the Spurs moving Rasho was a necessary stage in their well thought out, developing master plan.
(I can respect that a plan exists, even if I disagree with it.)

However. it makes me very uncomfortable that we traded Rasho, who knows our system and is competant, while there appears to be no one to fill his position.

3) Much as I would like to, I don't know how much of a right I have to complain.
It isn't as if I have come up with some brilliant idea that the front office is not trying.

[angel_luv]

Phew, I feel a little better now.

[LEONARD]

Ticket prices have gone up the last two seasons. You must have a special deal or something.

:lol

[timvp]

If only the Spurs had David Lee right now. And James White would double the team's athletic ability.

[violentkitten]

If only the Spurs had David Lee right now. And James White would double the team's athletic ability.

but malik rose is gone and that is oh so important because of all the free agents the spurs can add this summer.

fuck man they could have drafted a young big and a young 3 with those picks. now mohammed's gone and they're jonesing for francisco fucking elson?

[picnroll]

If the Spurs want to do Holting Pattern V1.1 fine but at least do it right. Make a real offer to Mourning and get two years out of him and sign a guy like Woods, be a contender. Or make a bad ass offer to Butler, like two years for solid money. Why half ass it with offers you know are unacceptable or dumb it down until you get crappy players willing to take a crappy offers thereby guaranteeing you'll be a second tier team if everbody can stay healthy.

[SenorSpur]

Something is afoul when people refer to the dumping of Rasho's contract as the Spurs most critical FA move of the summer.

[timvp]

If the Spurs want to do Holting Pattern V1.1 fine but at least do it right. Make a real offer to Mourning and get two years out of him and sign a guy like Woods, be a contender. Or make a bad ass offer to Butler, like two years for solid money. Why half ass it with offers you know are unacceptable or dumb it down until you get crappy players willing to take a crappy offers thereby guaranteeing you'll be a second tier team if everbody can stay healthy.

Players like Reggie Evans, Jackie Butler and Darius Songaila can probably be had with a solid 2-year, $11M offer. If you are going to give 2-years, you are going to have to make it up with money.

There's no excuse to blow half the MLE on Francisco Freakin' Elson.

[violentkitten]

Something is afoul when people refer to the dumping of Rasho's contract as the Spurs most critical FA move of the summer.

that's because many spurs fans can't seem to delineate between fandom and being a blind slave to the front office

[ShoogarBear]

Hmmm, is Elson > Malik?

[timvp]

Hmmm, is Elson > Malik?

Sounds like we'll find out, sadly enough.

[violentkitten]

is Elson + 1 yr of Mohammed > Malik + two 1st round picks?

[ShoogarBear]

is Elson + 1 yr of Mohammed > Malik + two 1st round picks?

Well, that's of course what I was eventually getting to.

But let's keep it simple first.

[violentkitten]

the devils in the details sugebear

is elson plus 1 yr of mohammed > small ball big plus two young players who actually have to play in san antonio regardless of whether or not they want to for cheap ass pay for 4 years?

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

yeah because he had never solved the matchup problem the spurs faced this year. just go.

You're hysterical, Marcus. Malik was on the downside of an average career, and trading him was a good move at the time.

Malik is NOT the small-ball answer. I'm not sure how you think having someone on the floor who is shorter, slower and has less range than Robert Horry was (is) going to solve any matchup problems.

All Malik would have provided was 12 more free throws a night to Dirk...oh and he probably would have improved Nowitski's blocks per game as well.

I think you should go. . .watch some film.

People like to blame the front office for a lot of stupid crap. Hell, I'm still disappointed we didn't ink Derek Anderson to that big, long-term deal a few years back. I'm really shocked at management's lack of vision sometimes.

[SenorSpur]

that's because many spurs fans can't seem to delineate between fandom and being a blind slave to the front office

As has already been pointed out, the FO, for all its successes, is not without it criticisms and blunders.

[ShoogarBear]

True, but if we can't even say that Elson > Malik, then we're left with trying to decide if 1 year of Nazr > two first-round picks.

I think that one is pretty easy.

[ChumpDumper]

We're doo--

Ah, I'll just make it my sig.

[violentkitten]

You're hysterical, Marcus. Malik was on the downside of an average career, and trading him was a good move at the time.

Malik is NOT the small-ball answer. I'm not sure how you think having someone on the floor who is shorter, slower and has less range than Robert Horry was (is) going to solve any matchup problems.

malik was the answer to the matchup problems the spurs had with the mavs and dirk since 2001. where have you been?



All Malik would have provided was 12 more free throws a night to Dirk...oh and he probably would have improved Nowitski's blocks per game as well.

I think you should go. . .watch some film.


nah, i saw it live. looks like you need to hit the film room though.




People like to blame the front office for a lot of stupid crap. Hell, I'm still disappointed we didn't ink Derek Anderson to that big, long-term deal a few years back. I'm really shocked at management's lack of vision sometimes.

i didnt want da back. try again.

i like how they passed on howard though.

[timvp]

Francisco Elson averaged 3 points per 48 minutes and had a grand total of zero blocks in the playoffs last year. And that's with him starting two games.

This is what a cheap 2-year contract gets you.

[violentkitten]

True, but if we can't even say that Elson > Malik, then we're left with trying to decide if 1 year of Nazr > two first-round picks.

I think that one is pretty easy.


right. the impetus for the trade was mohammed's contract expiring in '05. the spurs made that trade knowing that they wanted him to walk. awful. worst trade of the duncan era by the spurs.

[T Park]

We're doo--

Ah, I'll just make it my sig.

You'll just be accused of being an ownership asskisser so it falls on deaf ears anyways.

[LEONARD]

I knew there was a reason to stick around here for the summer...

You'd think the Spurs traded Duncan and deported Parker & Manu.. :smokin

[Kori Ellis]

I knew there was a reason to stick around here for the summer...

You'd think the Spurs traded Duncan and deported Parker & Manu.. :smokin

This is how it is here. Even the years that the Spurs won the title(s) the forum went crazy during free agency.

It's the SpursTalk Way.

:lol

[timvp]

Right now I'd rather have Malik Rose, David Lee and James White than Francisco Elson.

[Kori Ellis]

Right now I'd rather have Malik Rose, David Lee and James White than Francisco Elson.

:lol

I think everyone would agree on that. But the Spurs have none of them.

Not even Elson.

[Lebowski Brickowski]

I find myself believing more and more each day that Javtokas is a top tier NBA center. WTF is that about? It's because we're looking at
francisco fucking elson Jeez-o-whiz. I really really really really really really really really really HOPE
Javtokas can start and play well. Seriously, Angel Luv has a good point:

Who replaces Rasho? Who do we have that is better?

[violentkitten]

Right now I'd rather have Malik Rose, David Lee and James White than Francisco Elson.

but it's so good that malik is gone. it was worth those two picks and staring down the barrel of starting center francisco elson.

ARRRRRGiaug[lkafhg;aig;lhjag;lj

[wildbill2u]

Cuban spends AND reduced ticket prices for next season... :fro

Cuban is a billionaire in a much bigger market. He can afford to do whatever he wan'ts. Holt and the SA investors are not in the same universe financially although they must compete there.

Maybe it's instructive that the Mavs have yet to win a championship despite expending millions and millions of dollars, sometimes extravagantly such as the payout to Finley which cost Cuban more than any of the Spurs owners are worth.

[violentkitten]

Cuban is a billionaire in a much bigger market. He can afford to do whatever he wan'ts. Holt and the SA investors are not in the same universe financially although they must compete there.

Maybe it's instructive that the Mavs have yet to win a championship despite expending millions and millions of dollars, sometimes extravagantly such as the payout to Finley which cost Cuban more than any of the Spurs owners are worth.

maybe the individual partners but not the corporate ones...

[timvp]

David Lee next to Tim Duncan would be so perfect. He's quick enough for the smallest of small ball, yet he rebounds well enough to handle the biggest teams.

Oh and James Flight White is a lockdown defender at three positions who can also do this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA4L-_Wic78&search=james%20white)

[violentkitten]

David Lee next to Tim Duncan would be so perfect. He's quick enough for the smallest of small ball, yet he rebounds well enough to handle the biggest teams.

Oh and James Flight White is a lockdown defender at three positions who can also do this. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pA4L-_Wic78&search=james%20white)


thats ok because tpark said so

[wildbill2u]

Like Scola? Who will probably never be a Spur?

Karaulov who is a bust?

Sanikidze who hasn't played basketball in a year?

Javtokas, who doesn't have a deal yet but was being reported a done deal?

I'm curious. Do you have any info on the success ratio of teams picking at 55 or lower in the draft over a period of years? The Spurs annual record of successes always relegates them to the nether regions of the draft.

Granted they've taken some long shots like Scola, Javtokas and Sanikidze who we have not been able to bring to the club so far and may never pan out.

But what major players have they hit with their picks? What major players have they missed out on by taking these guys at the end of the draft?

[MI21]

Ugggh, James White.

I've been following his career since he lost to David Lee in the McDonals All American Dunk Comp. I thought he wasn't going to turn into much at first, but dude can really play and would be the perfect versatile defender for the Spurs.

Damn.

[picnroll]

Players like Reggie Evans, Jackie Butler and Darius Songaila can probably be had with a solid 2-year, $11M offer. If you are going to give 2-years, you are going to have to make it up with money.

There's no excuse to blow half the MLE on Francisco Freakin' Elson.
I suspect Evans and Songalia would only be interested in long term deals unless you can way overpay on two years. Fitting the Holting Pattern the best bets are an old talented guy only intending to play ac ouple of years at most (Mourning) or a young talented guy who hasn't established himself enough to get a high paying long term deal (Butler).

[wildbill2u]

Offering Przybilla a 4-year deal and offering Zo a $3M deal were token moves. The Spurs knew there was no way in hell that they land the players offering what they were offering. I'm not sure what the motive was. Maybe they were just praying for a miracle.

Does anyone think Pop would have made a offer to Zo that was realistically possible

I mean, you have an over-age center who plays backup now, but with a team that gave him a chance after a life-threatening kidney transplant and with whom he won his only championship.

I don't believe for a minute that ZO would consider leaving Miami with that history behind him and his loyalty and reputation at stake. It'd have to be a lollapalooza of an offer to make him forsake that team.

[timvp]

I'm curious. Do you have any info on the success ratio of teams picking at 55 or lower in the draft over a period of years? The Spurs annual record of successes always relegates them to the nether regions of the draft.

Granted they've taken some long shots like Scola, Javtokas and Sanikidze who we have not been able to bring to the club so far and may never pan out.

But what major players have they hit with their picks? What major players have they missed out on by taking these guys at the end of the draft?

When you are picking 50 and up, there is like a 5% chance that player lasts in the league for two years. So yeah, the Spurs have been great at drafting late.

The only questionable picks are Chris Carrawell over Michael Redd and more recently, Sanikidze over Trevor Ariza. But Ginobili, Javtokas and Scola were by far the best on the board in that area.

[Marcus Bryant]

timvp and Marcus Bryant will be accepting apologies from Holtlickers from 2 to 4 PM CDT this afternoon in the Club.

[Mr. Body]

We're at the point Los Angeles was when we finally knocked them off in 2004 - they had late draft picks that were turning up the likes of Brian Cook, Medvedenko, Luke Walton, and had to plug roster holes with decrepit old farts like Brian Cook. I was watching the 2003 Championship DVD the other night, you know the clenching Game 6s, and it struck me how awful most of their roster was. Just guys who shouldn't have been playing.

I fear we're at that point. The NBA is built so success is hard to maintain over a long period of time. You get draft picks very late in the draft and naturally your role players age to where their trade value is nil while their productivity lapses. It is very difficult to keep it up after that.

The Bulls were able to rejuvenate after MJ came back because we traded them Rodman and they stole Kukoc from Europe, filling in pieces here and there (the Bison Deles of the world). Los Angeles kept it up one year longer because they got Payton and Malong to come over for relative peanuts.

We're in the same situation. We have few assets and we've had years of either bad drafts or no drafts at all (mostly the latter). Giving up 2 draft picks for NY taking Malik might be really hurting. Sanikidze is a longshot. At least we have Javtokas, who might be mediocre, if anything. Next year, we're counting on a 28-30 first round draft pick and two second rounders.

It's looking tough.

[picnroll]

timvp and Marcus Bryant will be accepting apologies from Holtlickers from 2 to 4 PM CDT this afternoon in the Club.
I wanted Arenas in Holting Pattern V1.0 so no apology from me.

[timvp]

We're at the point Los Angeles was when we finally knocked them off in 2004 - they had late draft picks that were turning up the likes of Brian Cook, Medvedenko, Luke Walton, and had to plug roster holes with decrepit old farts like Brian Cook. I was watching the 2003 Championship DVD the other night, you know the clenching Game 6s, and it struck me how awful most of their roster was. Just guys who shouldn't have been playing.

I fear we're at that point. The NBA is built so success is hard to maintain over a long period of time. You get draft picks very late in the draft and naturally your role players age to where their trade value is nil while their productivity lapses. It is very difficult to keep it up after that.

The Bulls were able to rejuvenate after MJ came back because we traded them Rodman and they stole Kukoc from Europe, filling in pieces here and there (the Bison Deles of the world). Los Angeles kept it up one year longer because they got Payton and Malong to come over for relative peanuts.

We're in the same situation. We have few assets and we've had years of either bad drafts or no drafts at all (mostly the latter). Giving up 2 draft picks for NY taking Malik might be really hurting. Sanikidze is a longshot. At least we have Javtokas, who might be mediocre, if anything. Next year, we're counting on a 28-30 first round draft pick and two second rounders.

It's looking tough.


I don't buy it. The Spurs are a couple moves from being right back at the top. Get a good player next to Tim (Evans, Butler even Songaila), get a young wing (Ariza, Woods) and a backup point (Pargo) and the Spurs are as good as ever.

Problem is the Spurs are being cheap and look like they will instead sign the Nuggets 13th man to start at center.

[Mr. Body]

I don't buy it. The Spurs are a couple moves from being right back at the top. Get a good player next to Tim (Evans, Butler even Songaila), get a young wing (Ariza, Woods) and a backup point (Pargo) and the Spurs are as good as ever.

Problem is the Spurs are being cheap and look like they will instead sign the Nuggets 13th man to start at center.

I didn't mean to say they're at the end of their dominance, but that there are clear problems without a lot of solutions. There are no visible replacements for Bowen, Barry, Finley, or Horry, and within two years all four of those guys are going to disappear, if not all of them. The draft picks would have helped, but maybe not.

I'm absolutely with you -- I would love Ariza on the team, Evans would be more than fine, etc., but I'm also fearing they'll sit back on their haunches and do nothing productive. We might eek through another year with what we have, but beyond that it looks skeletal.

[timvp]

The Spurs have the resources to get these guys. They just have to forget about this clearing cap space for 2009-10 crap.

Win now.

[strangeweather]

We're at the point Los Angeles was when we finally knocked them off in 2004 - they had late draft picks that were turning up the likes of Brian Cook, Medvedenko, Luke Walton, and had to plug roster holes with decrepit old farts like Brian Cook.
Certainly, some of that was that being really good leaves you no money for FA signings and increases the degree of difficulty in drafting dramatically.

But let's not forget the other side of the coin -- Mitch Kupchak is a horrible, horrible GM.

[timvp]

LAS VEGAS -- The hair has grown out, so has some stubble on the chin, and the arms and shoulders are filling out the jersey nicely.

David Lee certainly looks a year older, but his game has matured, too.

The Knicks' forward played well in the Vegas Summer League last year, which hinted at what turned into a solid rookie season in New York, the erratic playing time aside. If his performance this July is a precursor, he's poised to cement himself into Isiah Thomas' rotation come the fall.

Second-year vets generally fare well this time of year -- their comfort level and confidence from a year in the fire, matched with unfettered playing time, usually leads to some big numbers. And Lee's do look pretty good -- he's been bullying the generally inferior competition for the last week, averaging 16 points and 10.8 rebounds in four games. He had 10 points and nine rebounds in the Knicks' 91-68 win over the Pistons on Tuesday night.

It's the way he's been doing it that has been impressing viewers at UNLV's Cox Pavilion. Lee has been rugged around the basket on both ends, working for every rebound and running the floor with Nate Robinson like an undrafted free agent trying to scratch out a roster spot.

"He plays like a warrior, it doesn't matter what the game means," one Eastern Conference coach said. "He's one of those guys who always challenges himself and wants to win."

To throw a little more gas on the fire, look what the featured article on the front of ESPN.com's NBA section is about.

:pctoss

[Mr. Body]

But let's not forget the other side of the coin -- Mitch Kupchak is a horrible, horrible GM.

(I meant to say "decrepit old farts like Brian Shaw" not Brian Cook, who at least isn't old.)

Yes. They seem to be doing better, however, even if I doubt the Radmanovic pickup.

Throwing away draft picks is tough to watch for the Spurs. They have a pretty good 'hit' ratio, it's hard to see them thrown away.

I'm fully expecting them to trade 2/3 of them off next year.

[Mr. Body]

David Lee looks great. I've gotten to see a few SL games on the MSG network. I wouldn't be surprised to see Balkman work out, either. They both have great motors and a knack for the ball.

THE KIND OF PLAYERS WE NEED.

[Bruno]

Spurs won't have drafted Lee if they have kept the 30th pick. It's stupid to say that Spurs have traded Lee.

[Mr. Body]

True, Bruno. But he's the sort of player they could have used.

[SenorSpur]

The Spurs have the resources to get these guys. They just have to forget about this clearing cap space for 2009-10 crap.

Win now.

Agree. A good GM should keep an eye on the future, but this organization has won 3 titles behind its lone superstar - Duncan. They can win more if they get off their asses and "pony up" to bring in a few key guys that help get them over the top again.

It is possible to do both.

[timvp]

Spurs won't have drafted Lee if they have kept the 30th pick. It's stupid to say that Spurs have traded Lee.

Spurs liked him before and after the draft. Why wouldn't they have drafted him?

:huh

[Mr. Body]

I think we bank so much on them drafting exclusively foreign.

[Bruno]

Spurs liked him before and after the draft. Why wouldn't they have drafted him?

:huh

Duncan + Horry + Scola + Rose at PF.

Edit : and Mahinmi as project PF.

[Bruno]

BTW, if Spurs wanted badly a player like Lee, they would have drafted Amundson with their pick this year.

[wildbill2u]

maybe the individual partners but not the corporate ones...

You can't compare a minority corporate partner with obligations to stockholders with an individual who can do whatever he damn well wants to with his billions.

Can you imagine any Spur owner being able to taunt the league and pay the sort of fines Cuban has absorbed with laughter? $250,000 is less than one day's interest on his money.

The league knows this and he has them in a bind because if they tried to fine him kazillion dollars, he could afford to keep them in court until he found a judge who said it was excessive. And he'd probably win in that kind of pissing contest.

Like Steinbrenner, Cuban is an original and a force simply because he has no meaningful fianancial restrictions on his actions.

[MajorMike]

I would challenge ANYone to come up with stats that a team has done better drafting here we have had picks since TD was picked. The Spurs have had 1 Lottery pick since 1990. 1990. (TD). Since TD our ave 1st round pick has been 27.43.
1 24 24 1998 Felipe Lopez SG St. John's
2 23 52 1998 Derrick Dial SG Eastern Michigan
1 29 29 1999 Leon Smith PF (High School)
2 28 57 1999 Emanuel Ginobili SG (Italy)
2 12 41 2000 Chris Carrawell SF Duke
2 25 54 2000 Cory Hightower SF/SG Indian Hills C.C.
1 29 29 2001 Tony Parker PG (France)
2 27 56 2001 Robertas Javtokas C/PF (Lithuania)
2 29 58 2001 Bryan Bracey SF Oregon
1 26 26 2002 John Salmons PG/SG Miami (FL)
2 27 56 2002 Luis Scola PF (Spain)
1 28 28 2003 Leandrinho Barbosa PG (Brazil)
1 28 28 2004 Beno Udrih PG (Italy)
2 23 52 2004 Romain Sato SG Xavier
2 28 58 2004 Sergey Karaulov C (Russia)
1 28 28 2005 Ian Mahinmi PF (France)

What did the Lakers do?
1 27 27 1990 Elden Campbell PF/C Clemson
2 24 51 1990 Tony Smith SG Marquette
2 25 52 1991 Anthony Jones SF Oral Roberts
1 15 15 1992 Anthony Peeler SG Missouri
2 9 36 1992 Duane Cooper PG USC
1 12 12 1993 George Lynch SF/PF North Carolina
2 10 37 1993 Nick Van Exel PG Cincinnati
1 10 10 1994 Eddie Jones SG Temple
2 8 37 1995 Frankie King SG/PG Western Carolina
1 24 24 1996 Derek Fisher PG Arkansas Little Rock
2 23 52 1997 DeJuan Wheat PG Louisville
2 25 54 1997 Paul Rogers PF/C Gonzaga
1 26 26 1998 Sam Jacobson SG Minnesota
2 2 31 1998 Ruben Patterson SF Cincinnati
2 16 45 1998 Toby Bailey SG UCLA
1 23 23 1999 Devean George SG/SF Augsburg
2 1 30 1999 John Celestand SG/PG Villanova
1 29 29 2000 Mark Madsen PF Stanford
1 27 27 2002 Chris Jefferies SF Fresno State
1 24 24 2003 Brian Cook PF Illinois
2 3 32 2003 Luke Walton SF Arizona
1 27 27 2004 Alexander Vujacic PG (Italy)
2 27 56 2004 Marcus Douthit PF/C Providence
1 10 10 2005 Andrew Bynum C (High School)
2 7 37 2005 Ronny Turiaf PF Gonzaga
2 9 39 2005 Von Wafer SG Floirda State

Anyone see any All Stars in that list?

Bulls?
2 2 29 1990 Toni Kukoc SF (Yugoslavia)
1 26 26 1991 Mark Randall PF Kansas
1 27 27 1992 Byron Houston PF Oklahoma State
2 6 33 1992 Corey Williams SG Oklahoma State
2 12 39 1992 Litterial Green PG Georgia
2 25 52 1992 Matt Steigenga SF/PF Michigan State
1 25 25 1993 Corie Blount PF Cincinnati
2 14 41 1993 Anthony Reed SF/PF Tulane
1 21 21 1994 Dickey Simpkins PF Providence
2 22 49 1994 Kris Bruton SF Benedict
1 20 20 1995 Jason Caffey PF Alabama
2 2 31 1995 Dragan Tarlac PF (Greece)
1 29 29 1996 Travis Knight C Connecticut
1 28 28 1997 Keith Booth SF Maryland
2 29 58 1997 Roberto Duenas C (Spain)
1 28 28 1998 Corey Benjamin SG Oregon State
1 2 2 2002 Jay Williams PG Duke
2 29 58 1998 Maceo Baston PF Michigan
1 1 1 1999 Elton Brand PF Duke
1 16 16 1999 Ron Artest SF St. John's
2 3 32 1999 Michael Ruffin PF Tulsa
2 20 49 1999 Lari Ketner PF/C Massachusetts
1 4 4 2000 Marcus Fizer PF Iowa State
1 7 7 2000 Chris Mihm C Texas
1 24 24 2000 Dalibor Bagaric C (Croatia)
2 3 32 2000 A.J. Guyton PG Indiana
2 4 33 2000 Jake Voskuhl PF/C Connecticut
2 5 34 2000 Khalid El-Amin PG Connecticut
1 4 4 2001 Eddy Curry PF/C (High School)
2 1 30 2001 Trenton Hassell SG Austin Peay
2 16 45 2001 Sean Lampley SF California
1 2 2 2002 Jay Williams PG Duke
2 2 31 2002 Roger Mason Jr. PG/SG Virginia
2 15 44 2002 Lonny Baxter PF Maryland
1 7 7 2003 Kirk Hinrich PG Kansas
2 7 36 2003 Mario Austin PF Mississippi State
2 16 45 2003 Matt Bonner PF Florida
2 24 53 2003 Tommy Smith SF Arizona State
1 3 3 2004 Ben Gordon SG Connecticut
1 7 7 2004 Luol Deng SF Duke
2 2 31 2004 Jackson Vroman PF Iowa State
2 9 39 2004 Chris Duhon PG Duke

Couple of All Stars, but not for them, and they were both top 16 picks.

Rockets?
1 12 12 1990 Alec Kessler PF Georgia
1 20 20 1991 John Turner PF Phillips
2 20 47 1991 Keith Hughes PF Rutgers
2 24 51 1991 Zan Tabak C (Croatia)
1 11 11 1992 Robert Horry SF/PF Alabama
2 14 41 1992 Popeye Jones PF Murray State
2 26 53 1992 Curtis Blair PG Richmond
1 24 24 1993 Sam Cassell PG Florida State
2 19 46 1993 Richard Petruska PF/C UCLA
2 22 50 1993 Marcelo Nicola PF/SF (Spain)
2 26 53 1994 Albert Burditt PF Texas
2 12 41 1995 Erik Meek PF Duke
2 1 30 1996 Othella Harrington PF Georgetown
2 13 42 1996 Randy Livingston PG LSU
2 21 50 1996 Terrell Bell PF/C Georgia
1 24 24 1997 Rodrick Rhodes SG/SF USC
2 1 30 1997 Serge Zwikker C North Carolina
1 14 14 1998 Micheal Dickerson SG Arizona
1 16 16 1998 Bryce Drew PG Valparaiso
1 18 18 1998 Mirsad Turkcan PF (Turkey)
2 12 41 1998 Cuttino Mobley SG Rhode Island
1 22 22 1999 Kenny Thomas PF New Mexico
2 15 44 1999 Tyrone Washington PF Mississippi State
2 21 50 1999 Venson Hamilton PF Nebraska
1 9 9 2000 Joel Przybilla C Minnesota
2 2 31 2000 Dan Langhi SF Vanderbilt
1 18 18 2001 Jason Collins C Stanford
1 23 23 2001 Brandon Armstrong SG Pepperdine
1 1 1 2002 Yao Ming C (China)
1 15 15 2002 Bostjan Nachbar SF (Italy)
2 9 38 2002 Tito Maddox PG (None)
2 15 44 2003 Malick Badiane PF (Germany)
2 26 55 2004 Luis Flores PG Manhattan
1 24 24 2005 Luther Head SG/PG (Illinois)

Ming as #1 and Cassell (not for them).

Pistons?
1 26 26 1990 Lance Blanks SG Texas
2 13 40 1991 Doug Overton PG LaSalle
1 19 19 1992 Don MacLean PF/SF UCLA
1 10 10 1993 Lindsey Hunter PG Jackson State
1 11 11 1993 Allan Houston SG Tennessee
1 3 3 1994 Grant Hill SF Duke
2 21 48 1994 Jevon Crudup PF Missouri
1 18 18 1995 Theo Ratliff PF Wyoming
1 19 19 1995 Randolph Childress SG/PG Wake Forest
2 1 30 1995 Lou Roe PF/SF Massachusetts
2 29 58 1995 Don Reid PF Georgetown
1 26 26 1996 Jerome Williams PF Georgetown
1 19 19 1997 Scot Pollard PF/C Kansas
2 3 32 1997 Charles O'Bannon SF/SG UCLA
1 11 11 1998 Bonzi Wells SG Ball State
2 11 40 1998 Korleone Young SF (High School)
2 25 54 1999 Melvin Levett SG Cincinnati
1 14 14 2000 Mateen Cleaves PG Michigan State
2 15 44 2000 Brian Cardinal PF Purdue
1 9 9 2001 Rodney White SF Charlotte
2 9 38 2001 Mehmet Okur PF/C (Turkey)
1 23 23 2002 Tayshaun Prince SF Kentucky
1 2 2 2003 Darko Milicic PF (Serbia-Montenegro)
1 25 25 2003 Carlos Delfino SG (Italy)
2 29 58 2003 Andreas Glyniadakis C (Greece)
2 25 54 2004 Rickey Paulding SG Missouri
1 26 26 2005 Jason Maxiell PF Cincinnati
2 26 56 2005 Amir Johnson PF (High School)
2 30 60 2005 Alex Acker SG/PG Pepperdine

Hill and Houston, never led them anywhere, however.

That's all of the Champs since '90.
IF we end up getting Javto here and he has some production, that will futher the late-round prowess of the Spurs. If we get anything for Scola, that will as well.

The Spurs have always made the best moves for the Spurs.
In 98 they traded Lopez for Antonio Daniels.
In 99 they traded Smith to the Mavs, which enabled them to pick Carawell in 00.
Our #1 pick in 00 (#24) went to along with Person to the Bulls for Kerr.
Hightower was traded to the Lakers for a future pick... Javto.
Salmons was traded for Speedy.
Barbosa went to Phx for 05 pick which went with Malik and 2nd round 06 for Nazr.
They traded the next to last pick this year for the better of Milwuakee's 2 2nd round picks next year (not 1st round). They have Houston's pick as well in 2nd round next year.

[Mr. Body]

The Lakers did very well until Jerry West left (no surprise). George Lynch, Fisher, Eddie Jones, and Nick Van Exel were all excellent picks (NVE was an all-star). Ruben Patterson, Elden Campbell, and others are having/had good careers. Once West left, it was downhill.

[ShoogarBear]

CaptMike, nice post, but unless I missed something where were the Spurs criticized for their drafting in this thread? The point was the trading of draft picks and getting nothing back for them.

[SpursWoman]

Uh good for you,

ive already bought my tickets and they are the same price as last year.


A team raising ticket prices, wow, THAT never happens.....


Good for you, then. Mine went up over $150 per seat.

[MajorMike]

CaptMike, nice post, but unless I missed something where were the Spurs criticized for their drafting in this thread? The point was the trading of draft picks and getting nothing back for them.


In 98 they traded Lopez for Antonio Daniels.
In 99 they traded Smith to the Mavs, which enabled them to pick Carawell in 00.
Our #1 pick in 00 (#24) went to along with Person to the Bulls for Kerr.
Hightower was traded to the Lakers for a future pick... Javto.
Salmons was traded for Speedy.
Barbosa went to Phx for 05 pick which went with Malik and 2nd round 06 for Nazr.
They traded the next to last pick this year for the better of Milwuakee's 2 2nd round picks next year (not 1st round). They have Houston's pick as well in 2nd round next year.

All draft and trades listed, not simple player trades.

[MannyIsGod]

I find it funny that everyone jumps to the conclusion that the automatic reason the Spurs didn't want to offer extra years or more money to players is because they are cheap.

Rarely does anyone mention they are gunshy from contracts like Barry and Rasho or that they possibly don't have certain players in the long term plans or they simply don't value players as much as people here.

Immediatly the cheap card comes out.

However, what everyone should keep in mind is that rarely are these contracts end up being good things. When was the last time someone signed a contract of that nature and it wasn't considered a hinderance toward the end? Rasho, Malik, now Barry have all befallen this pattern. If you look around the leauge teams go out and overpay for free agents on a constant basis which inevitably ends up hurting them. The Spurs (possibly) try to avoid this type of a situation and they are considered cheap.

I don't know what their motivations for withholding an extra year from Pryzbilla are, but you have to at least consider the option that they had motivations other than "being cheap" or trying to save caproom for a specific date.

Either way, I think long term flexibility for a sports franchise is something thats a good thing. I'm not convinced that anyone we've missed out on so far out there other than Ben Wallace would have made an incredible impact inthe coming season so I see no reason to cry over what may or may not be occuring behind the scenes.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Matt Bonner is going to be the next Red haired Dirk :smokin

[G-Nob]

Can we just tank this year so that we can get a fourth draft pick next year? We might win the lottery again!

[SequNets]

Bottom line...............

San Antonio as a city is a shitty place and Black American ballers aren't into Taco Cabanas.

[blackbucket]

:lmao

Miami is offering Zo $2.5M. The Spurs come in trying to Out-Whataburger the Heat with a giant $3M offer.

:rollin


http://www.bryan-collegestation.org/images/Restaurants/Whataburger%20Logo.JPG


OMG!!!! :lol Just reading this thread now. That had me laughing my ass off. "You've been out Whataburgered"!!!!!!!! That is priceless :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

[Spurminator]

Apparently Elson was offered 3 years.

How does this affect the current theory?

[violentkitten]

Apparently Elson was offered 3 years.

How does this affect the current theory?


in the 3rd year his salary will be $3.2 mil. of course, that might very well be a team option