Besides the big 3, the Spurs have nothing

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

Besides Duncan, Parker, and Manu, the Spurs have no one other teams give a shit about and we are old. Spurs only trade bate was Rasho....pathetic


Spurs trade Rasho, lose Nazr, and skip over Javtokus and Scola. Hope Duncan expects to get 30+pts 15+rbs a night. Spurs will be out rebounded about every game next season.



The bench is a joke and we will need big nights from the big 3 to win games because he can expect nothing from the rest

[Leetonidas]

Yawn

[ducks]

WOW suprised they made it as far as they did with a injured duncan last year

[Solid D]

Bowen should be added. He's invited to Team USA for Pete's sake.

Don't forget, the Spurs won the 2005 championship with only 4 carry-overs from the 2003 championship team. Tim, TP, Manu and Bruce.

Add in the pieces.

[RON ARTEST]

yup

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

WOW suprised they made it as far as they did with a injured duncan last year




and when was the last time a team won the title in the reg seaosn? ..................................exactly





Spurs were exposed by the Mavs: no depth, Duncan in the one man show down low, old


Spurs then go out and sign a 3rd string PG?

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

Bowen should be added. He's invited to Team USA for Pete's sake.

Don't forget, the Spurs won the 2005 championship with only 4 carry-overs from the 2003 championship team. Tim, TP, Manu and Bruce.

Add in the pieces.




I sure he's been shopped around, but prob didn't get any quality back for him

[thispego]

hahahahaha, lame
yeah bowen and finley are trash
the season starts tomorrow
time has run out
06-07 spurs season = over

[Kori Ellis]

I sure he's been shopped around, but prob didn't get any quality back for him

I'm not sure why you are freaking out.

You think Javtokas is so much better than Jackie Butler, or what's caused you to go off the deep end?

If the Spurs get Butler, I'll be happy.

[degenerate_gambler]

I'm not sure why you are freaking out.


Cuz the Spurs don't act like the Indianas and NO's, etc. of the NBA world and start wheeling and dealing because they think they have to because it's the offseason.

[FromWayDowntown]

Hmmm, 3 all-stars and a perennial all-defensive first teamer? I'd take that over a group of mediocre "names."

I'm not sure that the Mavericks "exposed" anything other than that they were barely able to get past last year's Spurs team.

[bigdog]

any people that trash bruce bowen and michael finley on here are stupid. if it werent for many of finley's clutch shots all season long, the spurs would not have won many games, and it werent for bowen, the top guards in the league would have dropped 50 points on us and we would have lost those games

[violentkitten]

the spurs dump $40 mil in salary commitments over the next 3 seasons and they can't find a way to bring in some real talent? butler's a nice prospect but it's looking like a step back this summer.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

If I hear another dumbass whine about fucking scola.....christ


Hey, on the bright side, we'll still win 55+ games

[bigdog]

If I hear another dumbass whine about fucking scola.....christ


Hey, on the bright side, we'll still win 55+ games

yeah im tired of hearing about Scola. who cares about him anyways, i never liked him. hes good but dont wanna see him in silver and black.

[strangeweather]

the spurs dump $40 mil in salary commitments over the next 3 seasons and they can't find a way to bring in some real talent? butler's a nice prospect but it's looking like a step back this summer.
At the risk of sounding like a total Polyanna, the Spurs currently have a ton of potentially tradeable pieces. Trading someone like Rasho is a job of work because you have to find someone who (a) needs a center (b) thinks Rasho is a center (c) is willing to take on his contract (d) has something you'd want in return.

Now what we have is a bunch of parts and pieces with manageable contracts and mostly positive trade value. Williams -- expiring contract. Barry -- not a great contract, but a veteran who can definitely shoot for teams that need that. Beno -- cheap PG who can shoot. Rights to a couple of tradeable Euros. Oberto isn't worth much of anything, but he could be useful salary filler for a deal. Draft picks.

None of those pieces is worth a ton by itself, but you can put them together in a lot of different ways, so the next time a team is holding a fire sale for cap reasons or because a guy is a problem, there's a good chance that we can fit things together and build a deal.

Even if we can't work out a Troy Murphy deal right now, we still have until February to try to put together something that makes sense and can help us.

[violentkitten]

i'm aware they have those pieces. but to make use of them they have to be willing to take back long term contracts. otherwise, they're just likely to expire unused so the spurs can cut ever more payroll until holt sells the team

[timvp]

This is exactly what is bothering me. I agree with you. However, signing the third string center from the league's worst team is not an accomplishment.

It is when he put up better numbers than the other two.

[dknights411]

Besides Duncan, Parker, and Manu, the Spurs have no one other teams give a shit about and we are old. Spurs only trade bate was Rasho....pathetic


Spurs trade Rasho, lose Nazr, and skip over Javtokus and Scola. Hope Duncan expects to get 30+pts 15+rbs a night. Spurs will be out rebounded about every game next season.



The bench is a joke and we will need big nights from the big 3 to win games because he can expect nothing from the rest

Apparantly you forgot that this guy is still on the team...

http://photostore.nba.com/perl/get_image?size=480_art&provider_id=202&ptp_photo_id=220669

[Mr. Body]

If we have tradeable pieces, then their cost is barely the same as their value. Barry and Udrih have some value as players, but practically everyone else on the roster, other than the Big 3, is valuable only as a contract.

That's pretty sad.

[strangeweather]

i'm aware they have those pieces. but to make use of them they have to be willing to take back long term contracts. otherwise, they're just likely to expire unused so the spurs can cut ever more payroll until holt sells the team
Well, I certainly can't prove that it's not a bid to sell the team. What the hell do I know about whether Holt's looking to sell?

But the alternative explanation is simply that they're only willing to carry salary if it's not dead weight. Przybilla was decent, but he's probably not the guy who is going to put us over the top, so you don't want to offer him more than you think he's worth. By contrast, Murphy would fit perfectly with this team -- he's worth far more to us than he would be to most teams -- so even if you pay a good sum of money for him, you expect to get it back on the court.

My gut feel is that the Spurs are willing to pay, but only for the right players. Of course, I can't prove that, so we'll just have to wait and see.

[DaSpurs#1]

I'm not sure why you are freaking out.

You think Javtokas is so much better than Jackie Butler, or what's caused you to go off the deep end?

If the Spurs get Butler, I'll be happy.me too! :fro

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Besides Pippen/Jordan the Bulls had nothing.

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

Besides Pippen/Jordan the Bulls had nothing.



we don't have a Pippen though, but we got the Jordan



maybe: Manu for Paul. P. or Tony for Paul P

[GrandeDavid]

I'm not the slightest bit concerned. The Spurs will piece together a nice roster, fly under the radar a bit, finish strong and kick ass and take names when it matters most, the playoffs. Duncan, Ginobili and probably Parker as well are all in their prime this year and next. Remember, Dallas got lucky to beat San Antonio in seven games due to Ginobili's last minute gaffes. I think they'll be find next season.

[1Parker1]

Ehh, I'd rather have our 3 all stars surrounded by one former All-star, a career clutch NBA veteran, a good 3 pointer shooter, and a former Gold Medalist center. Other than the Mavs and the Heat (to an extent), most other NBA teams would kill to have our bench...however aging it may be.

[Mr. Body]

most other NBA teams would kill to have our bench

Then howcum no one's trading for any of them?

[waly.mg]

We have 3 Bigs, and How many Bigs have the Teams of the NBA

The Pistons are Back to 3, but the most have 1 or 2, Like LA and Kobe, Sonics and Ray Allen, Wolves and Garnett, Sixers and AI

[Slam Duncan]

The Spurs are one of the teams in the NBA that have an all around good team. We have:

Duncan
Parker
Ginobili
Bowen
Horry
Finley

Unlike teams such as the 76er's who only have Allen Iverson. Or the Cavaliers who only have Ilgauskus and Lebron. Or the Rockets who only have Yao and T-Mac.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

we don't have a Pippen though, but we got the Jordan



maybe: Manu for Paul. P. or Tony for Paul P

Pippen/Jordan/Rodman

Parker/Duncan/Manu



It's not too far off. We don't need a "Pippen".

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

Pippen/Jordan/Rodman

Parker/Duncan/Manu



It's not too far off. We don't need a "Pippen".


not too far off?




Pippen was a top 50 player of all time, Manu and Parker are no way near Pippen's level

[strangeweather]

Pippen was a top 50 player of all time, Manu and Parker are no way near Pippen's level
Neither one of them is Pippen. Certainly not at the moment.

But it's worth remembering that Parker is a top-5 PG in the league at the ripe old age of 24.

If Parker succeeds in adding the range he's working on and develops the court vision and floor leadership that a lot of points get as they mature, there's no question that he could be a Hall of Fame player by the time he retires.

[spurs are cray cray]

scottie pippen was so overrated give me a break, he's fucking good but he was nothing without Mike. no way in hell is he top 50, mj made him better just like Tim makes everyone better.

Lets Look at the other teams who have all around good players besides us...

Heat-
Wade
Shaq
Zo
Sometimes...
Walker
Williams
Posey
Haslem
Mavs
Dirk
Testicle Puncher
Howard
Sometimes Harris
Stack
Suns
Marion
Amare
Diaw
Nash
Bell
Bulls
Gordon
Wallace
Hinrich
SPURS
TIM
MANU
BRUCE
TP
MIKE
and a good bench



The center of our defense and offense are still here, theres no dominant center in the league that a combo of Tim, Elson, Butler, Fabs, and Robert cant handle. This year we'll still be great and its fucking obvious we're gonna trade someone, i dunno if you realized it but next year wont be too competetive. Mavs got worse, heat older than us, bulls too young, pistons have no D, rockets have two good players, suns still cant play D... I know eventually after this season we're gonna need a good center but the fact is this season we will be fine cause there wont be much big men competition. We got better at rebounding throughout the playoffs and thats when we weren't even using stone hands or that piece of shit rasho

[rascal]

not too far off?




Pippen was a top 50 player of all time, Manu and Parker are no way near Pippen's level
And Duncan is not Jordan.

Manu is not an all star caliber player. He is a solid role player, thats all. He did not come thru in two big spots in the playoffs and does not consistently put up the big stats. His numbers do not compare with the true all stars.

I do not know why he was voted on by the coaches to make the all star team a couple years ago but not making it last year was no surprise.

If the spurs are reluying on Parker, Duncan and Manu and scrubs it will be like the Robinson years before Duncan all over again. Good enough to make the playoffs but not good enough to even make it again to the finals. There will always be at least 2 or 3 teams better that will knock them out.

[boutons_]

"but not making it last year was no surprise."

... he was out injured a lot before the all-star voting.

[rascal]

"but not making it last year was no surprise."

... he was out injured a lot before the all-star voting.
Hell no, he wasn't good enough. There were better selections.

[SpursWillOwn]

Hell yes, he was good enough. There were no better selections.

[pache100]

Besides Duncan, Parker, and Manu, the Spurs have no one other teams give a shit about and we are old. Spurs only trade bate was Rasho....pathetic


Spurs trade Rasho, lose Nazr, and skip over Javtokus and Scola. Hope Duncan expects to get 30+pts 15+rbs a night. Spurs will be out rebounded about every game next season.



The bench is a joke and we will need big nights from the big 3 to win games because he can expect nothing from the rest

That is the most ridiculous whining I have ever heard. Grow up.


I sure he's been shopped around, but prob didn't get any quality back for him

BRUCE?!?!?! BRUCE ALMIGHTY?????? Are you insane? Are you drunk? On drugs? If you want to get a clue and get real, let me know. Otherwise, I am ignoring your nonsense posts.

[pache100]

we don't have a Pippen though, but we got the Jordan

maybe: Manu for Paul. P. or Tony for Paul P

:blah How 'bout Spurs Dynasty 21 for any scrub from another board?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

not too far off?




Pippen was a top 50 player of all time, Manu and Parker are no way near Pippen's level

Tony Parker could end up as one of the top Point Guards of all time. The combo of him and Manu challenge what Pippen brought to the Bulls.


My point was simply you can't say "Without so-and-so we have nothing" because you can say that about every teams best 2-3 players.

[awmyplace]

:blah How 'bout Spurs Dynasty 21 for any scrub from another board?

:lol

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

That is the most ridiculous whining I have ever heard. Grow up.



BRUCE?!?!?! BRUCE ALMIGHTY?????? Are you insane? Are you drunk? On drugs? If you want to get a clue and get real, let me know. Otherwise, I am ignoring your nonsense posts.




and your moronic self can continue to live in this fantasy world that the Spurs are having an incredible off season

[Beer is Good]

the spurs dump $40 mil in salary commitments over the next 3 seasons and they can't find a way to bring in some real talent? butler's a nice prospect but it's looking like a step back this summer.
What real talent is there? Name someone the Spurs could realistically get right now that is such a great talent. Name someone they could have gotten since the Heat finished the Mavs that is such a great talent. At least the Spurs have the intelligence to realize that this is a horrible off season for talent, and that there is not much to be gained here. Everyone pimps Javtokas and Scola, but how many people have actually SEEN them PLAY A WHOLE GAME? Or play against NBA talent? I'll trust the full time scouts over a clip on youtube any day.

[Beer is Good]

and your moronic self can continue to live in this fantasy world that the Spurs are having an incredible off season
No, not an incredible off season. Given the dry pool of talent out there this summer, that would be impossible. But the good news is they haven't completely destroyed the team that won 63 games.

[Mr. Body]

I think it was kind of brainless to blow the Scola and Javtokas situations both. Coming away from them with nothing, just stupid. This was a critical point of the offseason and they left talent there on the table. Javtokas they'll probably never get anything for. Scola they might get something relatively decent, like a late 1st rounder, but I'm doubting it.

[Beer is Good]

I think it was kind of brainless to blow the Scola and Javtokas situations both. Coming away from them with nothing, just stupid. This was a critical point of the offseason and they left talent there on the table. Javtokas they'll probably never get anything for. Scola they might get something relatively decent, like a late 1st rounder, but I'm doubting it.
Possibly, but I haven't seen enough of either one to say they would fare any better than say Jackie Butler. Or anyone else the Spurs might get. Obviously the front office is not that impressed with either. I guess for every Manu and TP you pluck out of Europe you get 10 guys with potential that just don't work out for you.

[violentkitten]

I think it was kind of brainless to blow the Scola and Javtokas situations both. Coming away from them with nothing, just stupid. This was a critical point of the offseason and they left talent there on the table. Javtokas they'll probably never get anything for. Scola they might get something relatively decent, like a late 1st rounder, but I'm doubting it.

the spurs have rights to 5 international players and we are here begging to end up with the knicks and/or nuggets' 3rd center. unreal. all because someone is afraid to spend a little bit more here in the remainder of tim duncan's prime. fucking spurs admit they want to pay less for less productive players. if we end up with san francisco elson this is the end of the road for me. someone else can bother handing over $ to this team to line its pockets instead of try to surround one of the greatest players ever with the talent so that the team can win more championships. cheap motherfucks. hopefully more and more spurs fans will realize what is going on and kick them to the curb.

[Mr. Body]

Ah, but the difference is the Spurs own Scola and Javtokas's rights. Butler was always a longshot. Bird in the hand, eh?

This offseason will go down infamously like the blown Josh Howard and Andres Nocioni dropped balls.

[Beer is Good]

the spurs have rights to 5 international players and we are here begging to end up with the knicks and/or nuggets' 3rd center. unreal. all because someone is afraid to spend a little bit more here in the remainder of tim duncan's prime. fucking spurs admit they want to pay less for less productive players. if we end up with san francisco elson this is the end of the road for me. someone else can bother handing over $ to this team to line its pockets instead of try to surround one of the greatest players ever with the talent so that the team can win more championships. cheap motherfucks. hopefully more and more spurs fans will realize what is going on and kick them to the curb.
have you watched the 5 international players? Scola's buyout is a major problem, Javtokas is obviously not ready to start at center in the NBA (although he probably wants NBA starting center money), Ian is at least one year away from being considered. Everyone else is a scrub. Because of this thing called the salary cap you can't go blowing your wad on every breathing 7' guy that comes along. You have to be smart with the money, and that is why the Spurs have 3 titles in 7 years. Go watch the Knicks if you want a moron who blows money like it's gonna be worthless tommorow.

[Beer is Good]

Ah, but the difference is the Spurs own Scola and Javtokas's rights. Butler was always a longshot. Bird in the hand, eh?

This offseason will go down infamously like the blown Josh Howard and Andres Nocioni dropped balls.
It's always a gamble. Sometimes it pays off, sometimes it doesn't. Nocioni and Howard slipped by and were mistakes. I don't know that not bringing Scola or Javtokas over is a mistake... drafting them in the first place may be the mistake. But then again, it's hard to find gems in the second round.

[Mr. Body]

Scola's buyout isn't a problem if you pay him market value. Garbajosa is looking at $4M. Notoriously chintzy San Antonio can't offer anything just below this figure? Nope.

Javtokas would be making more money annually at Jackie Butlers' salary than he will with the Greek team. He would have gladly accepted it. And yet the Spurs never even offered him a contract, after making every overture in the last month to do just that.

He's not worth what you give Francisco Elson? Why?

[Beer is Good]

Scola's buyout isn't a problem if you pay him market value. Garbajosa is looking at $4M. Notoriously chintzy San Antonio can't offer anything just below this figure? Nope.

Javtokas would be making more money annually at Jackie Butlers' salary than he will with the Greek team. He would have gladly accepted it. And yet the Spurs never even offered him a contract, after making every overture in the last month to do just that.

He's not worth what you give Francisco Elson? Why?
To be honest with you I don't know if he's any better than Francisco Elson. The guy hasn't gone against NBA talent and the scouts/ FA don't feel he is good enough. Personally, if I could land him for the same money as Elson I would give Javtokas a chance, but that is blind speak on my part since i've only seen highlight clips of him on youtube. I was an all-state b.b. player in high school with absolutely no business ever being considered for the NBA, but you could put together a nice highlight reel of my plays that could say otherwise. I know that the Euro players are a lot better than h.s., but you can't evaluate him based on highlights of what he did against lesser competition. The scouts have watched him. They know what he brings to the table.
As far as Scola, I don't know what his role would be on the Spurs. Not a center, and would he be a viable pf on this team? I don't know.

[Mr. Body]

I'm not fighting the Scola decision. There's not enough room in this town for him and Duncan, yadda, I get it. They failed to trade his rights, fine.

What absolutely blows my mind, and what will blow my mind all season and until the end of the very clumsy and mediocre career as a Spur of Francisco Elson, is why this front office never even offered Javtokas a contract and decided to go with this guy. It is beyond my capacity for earthly understanding that Francisco Elson could possibly be better than a younger Javtokas or fill a role better for what the Spurs apparently need.

[Beer is Good]

I'm not fighting the Scola decision. There's not enough room in this town for him and Duncan, yadda, I get it. They failed to trade his rights, fine.

What absolutely blows my mind, and what will blow my mind all season and until the end of the very clumsy and mediocre career as a Spur of Francisco Elson, is why this front office never even offered Javtokas a contract and decided to go with this guy. It is beyond my capacity for earthly understanding that Francisco Elson could possibly be better than a younger Javtokas or fill a role better for what the Spurs apparently need.

I agree with that. For similar money I would give Javtokas a chance to sink or swim. The only thing I can think of is if there is something behind the scenes between the Spurs and Javtokas (or his agent) that is souring this relationship. I would think there has to be a reason why they won't give this guy a shot, and if it isn't money then it must be something else. Hopefully it's a valid reason that we are not aware of and not a stupid reason.

[Mr. Body]

It blows my mind, man, it blows my mind.

My (entirely unsubstantiated) reading is they expected Javtokas to wait around for one of Elson or Butler to be matched, and they sign him for that spot. The only thing that makes sense for me at this point is a flub-up. Given the courtship and kindly letters for RJ and SA's now-deserved reputation for cheapness, it's the only thing that makes sense to me now.

[strangeweather]

What absolutely blows my mind, and what will blow my mind all season and until the end of the very clumsy and mediocre career as a Spur of Francisco Elson, is why this front office never even offered Javtokas a contract and decided to go with this guy. It is beyond my capacity for earthly understanding that Francisco Elson could possibly be better than a younger Javtokas or fill a role better for what the Spurs apparently need.
I think the Spurs wanted to go into the season with a guy where they knew what they were getting, even if it was a stopgap. Someone who might be incredibly limited, but could start on day one without wetting his shorts. Elson wouldn't have been my pick here, but that's who they got.

They also wanted to try to go in with a guy with upside to be better than that, because it sucks to have to play a stopgap guy. But if the upside guy bombs or takes a while to develop, you still have stopgap guy. Javtokas has never played in the NBA, so he has to get slotted in as upside guy. No way can you bring him in and hand him a starting job going into camp. But instead, they picked Butler -- a 21 year old kid who looks like a player in the NBA. Butler is another upside guy that isn't ready to come in and be a preseason starter either, which is why Javtokas + Butler probably doesn't work.

If you look at it as picking Butler over Javtokas, I think passing on Javtokas makes a little more sense. Then again, if the Knicks match, Javtokas will look pretty good.

[Ya Vez]

one thing really...

gotta have enough money to resign tim in 4 years... thats what the spurs are looking at now...

[furry_spurry]

The only thing I can think of is if there is something behind the scenes between the Spurs and Javtokas (or his agent) that is souring this relationship. I would think there has to be a reason why they won't give this guy a shot, and if it isn't money then it must be something else.
Herb is Manu's agent, too.

[SenorSpur]

Personally, I would rather have seen them pass on Elson and sign Javtokas. I realize we don't know how his game translates to the NBA. However we DO know that Elson's game is subpar. Having said that, how much of a risk could Javtokas have been?

[Mr. Body]

I think the Spurs wanted to go into the season with a guy where they knew what they were getting, even if it was a stopgap. Someone who might be incredibly limited, but could start on day one without wetting his shorts. Elson wouldn't have been my pick here, but that's who they got.


You're very likely right, but it seems incredibly short-sighted to me. I can't think of any reason why Javtokas couldn't get 4/4 in the season. I'd much rather flounder for the first dozen games of the season than have a limited piece at the very end who has little upside and a history of completely vanishing in the playoffs.

Truth to tell, I'm still totally disbelieving they signed Elson to an offer sheet. My mind refuses to accept the fact.

[strangeweather]

Personally, I would rather have seen them pass on Elson and sign Javtokas. I realize we don't know how his game translates to the NBA. However we DO know that Elson's game is subpar. Having said that, how much of a risk could Javtokas have been?
I'm not happy with Elson's pickup. As a likely starter, he'll probably be one of the worst in the NBA. But I think he's better than starting Oberto, for example.

Meanwhile, Javtokas would be jumping from Europe, and from a league that is greatly inferior to the one Oberto came from. The floor on Javotkas is that his game is worse than Oberto's and he looks completely lost in both the offensive and defensive schemes. That's a pretty high risk.

[mavsfan1000]

The spurs should beware of the Heat. If they somehow get passed Dallas they will be without any quality centers against Shaq. Also Bowen will be a year older and he will need all the speed he can get having to guard Wade. The chances of San Antonio winning a championship next year with this roster is very unlikely.

[Mr. Body]

Uh, thanks Mavsfan.

[ChumpDumper]

Rasho = championships

Signed,

Mavfan

[mavsfan1000]

Uh, thanks Mavsfan.
Any way I can help. :lol Rasho= better chance for championship but I wouldn't guarantee that either since he was an offensive liability.

[ChumpDumper]

Eh, Jackie has potential if he's joining up. We'll have to see if he can pick up on the defense. There are a couple of big stiffs and fat bastards out there available for the minimum too.

[Beer is Good]

Herb is Manu's agent, too.
I guess it's true. We learn something every day. Thank you for educating me on that fact - must be another reason why they won't give him a shot.

[atxrocker]

we don't have a Pippen though, but we got the Jordan


uh.. no, you don't actually.

[Obstructed_View]

uh.. no, you don't actually.
Okay. :rolleyes

[atxrocker]

Okay. :rolleyes


are you serious? is that your response? duncan is good and all... but Michael Jordan? who says mavs fans are the only ones that are dillusional.

[mavsfan1000]

are you serious? is that your response? duncan is good and all... but Michael Jordan? who says mavs fans are the only ones that are dillusional.
:lmao A kings fan giving spurs fans logic? Hilarious.

[AdmiralMVP]

any people that trash bruce bowen and michael finley on here are stupid. if it werent for many of finley's clutch shots all season long, the spurs would not have won many games, and it werent for bowen, the top guards in the league would have dropped 50 points on us and we would have lost those games

Agreed. Without Bowen, you could probably take away two titles from the Spurs. Yeah, he's old. But he is still a great defender and that three pointer from the corner is a thing of beauty.

[Obstructed_View]

are you serious? is that your response? duncan is good and all... but Michael Jordan? who says mavs fans are the only ones that are dillusional.
I'm not going to read you Duncan's resume, dude. In the context it was intended, Duncan is Jordan. You were the one who decided to be a little twat and chime in just to start shit. Congratulations, you got it.

[violentkitten]

have you watched the 5 international players? Scola's buyout is a major problem, Javtokas is obviously not ready to start at center in the NBA (although he probably wants NBA starting center money), Ian is at least one year away from being considered. Everyone else is a scrub. Because of this thing called the salary cap you can't go blowing your wad on every breathing 7' guy that comes along. You have to be smart with the money, and that is why the Spurs have 3 titles in 7 years. Go watch the Knicks if you want a moron who blows money like it's gonna be worthless tommorow.

the salary cap means very little at this point the spurs arent going to land any major free agents. the spurs are wasting a significant part of their mle on a piece of shit breathing 7 footer as we type.

[Dalhoop]

Honesty, the door is closing for the Spurs, at least this version of the Spurs.

Horry (36)
Bowen (35)
Barry (35)
Finley (33)
Oberto (31)
Vaughn (30)

Correct me if I am wrong, but that IS the bench isn't it? And one starter? Those players are at retirement age, the only value to another team for any of them is the expiring contract of Bowen (Vaughn's is only for 1M). All the others are signed through the 07-08 year (or player option). That means that that IS the bench for the next two seasons (I thought they were old this year, hate to see them in two years)

With those ugly contracts and the Spurs over the cap all they have is the 5M of the MLE .... and they have to fill how many holes?

The door is closing on this team (but cannot close completely for another two years), but it will open again in a short while (After the elderly have been removed from the books)

[Mr. Body]

Add another 30 yr old in Elson.
Might as well add Eric Williams who is 30some.

Udrih and Bonner are our young bucks! And neither athletic.

[atxrocker]

I'm not going to read you Duncan's resume, dude. In the context it was intended, Duncan is Jordan. You were the one who decided to be a little twat and chime in just to start shit. Congratulations, you got it.


I got what? and you don't gotta read me shit. dude, I was commenting to who ever the fuck had the balls to compare Duncan to Jordan and you replied with the typical, generic spurs fan homer response of "okay :rolleyes ". bringing up resumes, compare the two, you little shit. Duncan pales in comparison.

[Dalhoop]

Williams is 35, and will have no problem taking the 4.2M player option for this up coming year, after he takes the option then his expiring contract will have value to someone.

Elston is 30 (Not sure of his contract years)

[Obstructed_View]

I got what? and you don't gotta read me shit. dude, I was commenting to who ever the fuck had the balls to compare Duncan to Jordan and you replied with the typical, generic spurs fan homer response of "okay :rolleyes ". bringing up resumes, compare the two, you little shit. Duncan pales in comparison.
A Spurs fan homer response would have been to comment that your team's collective asshole still aches from the fucking it got from Timmy, and that's the reason you are still hanging around looking for opportunities to cry or fling your feces.

[Kori Ellis]

Williams is 35, and will have no problem taking the 4.2M player option for this up coming year, after he takes the option then his expiring contract will have value to someone.

Elston is 30 (Not sure of his contract years)

He already picked up the option before he was traded to the Spurs.

[Dalhoop]

Horry (36)
Bowen (35)
Barry (35)
Williams (35)
Finley (33)
Oberto (31)
Vaughn (30)
Elston (30)

Thats the tale-of-the-tape, kind of scary if you ask me .... I don't think that many teams would take that group over whatever they have right now, there is no player on that list that has ANY upside, most are on the way down the slide.

There is nobody that the Spurs are "bringing along slowly", there is nobody that they can say "up and coming star" about.

This team is going to be all about FA signings after the elderly are gone .... look at the crop in two years and pray that it is deeper then this years crop of FAs

[atxrocker]

A Spurs fan homer response would have been to comment that your team's collective asshole still aches from the fucking it got from Timmy, and that's the reason you are still hanging around looking for opportunities to cry or fling your feces.


what the fuck ever. you don't have to venture very far to see who is really "crying" about everything. funny you mention how dominating duncan was in that series and fail to mention that a malcontent like bonzi wells was equally as impressive in his effort against the spurs. your post reeks of ignorance.

[Obstructed_View]

what the fuck ever. you don't have to venture very far to see who is really "crying" about everything. funny you mention how dominating duncan was in that series and fail to mention that a malcontent like bonzi wells was equally as impressive in his effort against the spurs. your post reeks of ignorance.
When have I ever said that Bonzi wasn't impressive in that series? When have I ever said he didn't have talent? All I've said is that he's an underachieving contract year ham & egger who showed up for five fucking games, and your team would be stupid to give him a big contract. I don't know why you think it's somehow my job to give equal time to players that did well on your team when they lost.

[rascal]

have you watched the 5 international players? Scola's buyout is a major problem, Javtokas is obviously not ready to start at center in the NBA (although he probably wants NBA starting center money), Ian is at least one year away from being considered. Everyone else is a scrub. Because of this thing called the salary cap you can't go blowing your wad on every breathing 7' guy that comes along. You have to be smart with the money, and that is why the Spurs have 3 titles in 7 years. Go watch the Knicks if you want a moron who blows money like it's gonna be worthless tommorow.
The Knicks don't have Duncan. If they had landed him in the lottery they would have titles. You don't realize how important and lucky the spurs were to get duncan.

I like when teams are agressive in getting talent like Dallas has. They improved a weak team with agressive bold moves. If the spurs didn't have Duncan they would never have been able to turn a weak team around with the current managements philosophy.

Look at Miami Dallas phoenix NJ and Denver. They improved their teams with bold trades and fa signings and not by lottery luck. The spurs are only good by lottery luck landing Robinson and then Duncan. Management has not made any impact trades or impact fa signings.

Go back and see what they have done with FA signings and trades and they rate worse then all the other top teams. Steve Smith, Rasho, Barry, Horry, Muhammed, Claxton, Mercer/ Turk, Bowen thats about the best the spurs have gotten thru fa or trades. And thats a weak bunch.


And thats in the last few years. Compare those players with what Dallas has acquired or Miami or Denver or phoenix or NJ . And its not even close. Good thing the spurs landed duncan because the spurs have either passed on good trades or made a trade where they got a player for only one year or made bad fa signings.

There are 3 ways to improve your team. The draft, fa and trades. The spurs score high in the draft but flunk on trades and fa. Parker and manu were steals where they were drafted and thats the high point of player acquisistions by the spurs.

[greens]

Besides Duncan, Parker, and Manu, the Spurs have no one other teams give a shit about and we are old. Spurs only trade bate was Rasho....pathetic


Spurs trade Rasho, lose Nazr, and skip over Javtokus and Scola. Hope Duncan expects to get 30+pts 15+rbs a night. Spurs will be out rebounded about every game next season.



The bench is a joke and we will need big nights from the big 3 to win games because he can expect nothing from the rest

You know, it really surprises me how underated Bruce Bowen is...First of all, I can almost guarantee you that if we did not have him as our defensive stopped against all the big star shooters(Kobe Bryant, etc...), we would NOT have won 2003, 3005 championships, period. Remember all those years, we could not stop Kobe?

Show Bruce respect...He deserves it. Just a reminder, he was the runner up for the Defensive Player of the Year this VERY SEASON and he was the LEAD vote geater for the 1st All Defensive Team THIS SEASON...So how anyone can possibly say that he is not worth much, that's just plain idiotic. The guy is a defensive speacialist for a reason. He can defend Dirk, Chauncey, Rip, Kobe, AI, etc...better than ANYONE...And yes, he is 35 years old...But is he showing his age at all this season? If you think so, then you're blind. Or you have selectively forgot the BLOCK on 7 ft tall Dirk, he GAVE us a chance to beat the Mavs in the playoffs...Without that BLOCK, we would have lost it all....SO don't give me stuff about how no one wants him...Any team would be jumping to get him. In my mind, I don't care about his age, he is the best defender. And to give him no credit at all is just ridiculous...

Everyone always focuses on the big shooters, they forget about great defenders and how important defense is...Remember, defense wins championships...Not offense...

Bruce should be right next to Tim, Tony, Manu as the core...He is not lesser than any of them...

[rascal]

Bowen did not stop bryant. The spurs won despite Bowen.
Bowen cannot defend Dirk. Its better to get rid of Bowen a year early while he may have a little value then try to get rid of him a year late when he has no value.

[strangeweather]

Look at Miami Dallas phoenix NJ and Denver. They improved their teams with bold trades and fa signings and not by lottery luck. The spurs are only good by lottery luck landing Robinson and then Duncan. Management has not made any impact trades or impact fa signings.
So your take on the 2005 title team playoff rotation goes something like this:

Duncan -- random luck
Parker -- random luck
Ginobili -- random luck
Bowen -- sucks
Horry -- sucks
Mohammed -- sucks
Barry -- sucks

Is that about the size of it?

[Obstructed_View]

Bowen did not stop bryant. The spurs won despite Bowen.
Bowen cannot defend Dirk.
Stupidest. Post. Ever.

[rascal]

No Parker and manu were great draft picks.

[Obstructed_View]

I like when teams are agressive in getting talent like Dallas has. They improved a weak team with agressive bold moves.
The Mavericks have a payroll that's double the Spurs payroll. That's what happens when you have enough money to replace brains. If the Spurs spent money like that the team wouldn't be in San Antonio. Would it be nice to just throw money all over the place? Sure. Comparing the Spurs situation to the Knicks and Mavericks, of all teams, is just a joke.

[rascal]

Stupidest. Post. Ever.
Explain why. byrant still scored on bowen. Thats a big reason why the spurs lost so many times to the Lakers.

[greens]

Bowen did not stop bryant. The spurs won despite Bowen.
Bowen cannot defend Dirk. Its better to get rid of Bowen a year early while he may have a little value then try to get rid of him a year late when he has no value.

Wow...this is coming from a Spurs fan? Honestly, you sound ungreatful. Let's repeat what I said earlier, NO BLOCK on Dirk in Game 4, we LOSE in 4-1...Why don't you search for that pic....before posting ridiculous comments...

[rascal]

The Mavericks have a payroll that's double the Spurs payroll. That's what happens when you have enough money to replace brains. If the Spurs spent money like that the team wouldn't be in San Antonio. Would it be nice to just throw money all over the place? Sure. Comparing the Spurs situation to the Knicks and Mavericks, of all teams, is just a joke.
Its good thing and advantage to be able to spend money. Thats why the spurs window is small. Smalltown cheap

[rascal]

Bryant and the Lakers have beaten the spurs more often than the spurs have beaten him.

[ducks]

last time I noticed mavs have no rings.......
sure they beat the spurs this year but still no ring
and suns have not even got to the finals in a long time
now heat I will give you but heat had a healthy wade this year in the playoffs against pistons
last year he was injured

[ducks]

I like the fact bowen has improved his o game
had he not I would be happy to ship him out with the new league rules

[rascal]

last time I noticed mavs have no rings.......
sure they beat the spurs this year but still no ring
and suns have not even got to the finals in a long time
now heat I will give you but heat had a healthy wade this year in the playoffs against pistons
last year he was injured

but you don't get it. They turned around weak teams and made them contenders without the benefit of landing a player like Duncan in the lucky draft lottery. Had any of these teams landed Duncan they win titles also especially with their good track record of player moves in trades and fa as compared with the spurs.

[ducks]

amare if healthy is a beast not nearly as good as duncan though
but he has NASH THE 2 TIME DEFENDING MVP

Suns were made contenders because CUBAN WAS CHEAP

[Obstructed_View]

Explain why. byrant still scored on bowen. Thats a big reason why the spurs lost so many times to the Lakers.
Are all your posts this fucking ignorant?

Bryant scores on everybody, and he can do it with frightening efficiency if you aren't careful. The thing you have to do is challenge all his shots, keep him out of his spots, keep his percentage down and don't send him to the foul line. Bowen has done all of those things. If Bryant scores 40 points on 13 shots you are probably going to lose. If Bryant scores 40 points on 39 shots you are probably going to win. Since Bowen actually played him well enough to fucking outscore him in a game, that's basically shutting him down, which just about nobody else in the league can do. It's taken some heroic performances from the Derek Fishers and Devean Georges of the Lakers to beat the Spurs. It doesn't discount the job Bowen did.

[ducks]

Amare Was A Draft Player Not A Fa

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Explain why. byrant still scored on bowen. Thats a big reason why the spurs lost so many times to the Lakers.
This season was the first time we lost to them since they had Shaq. I didnt know 1 was a lot.

[Obstructed_View]

but you don't get it. They turned around weak teams and made them contenders without the benefit of landing a player like Duncan in the lucky draft lottery. Had any of these teams landed Duncan they win titles also especially with their good track record of player moves in trades and fa as compared with the spurs.
If you don't think Dirk was a lucky draft pick, you are insane. They also traded a number one lottery pick for Michael Finley. Without those bits of luck, they wouldn't have been anywhere either.

[rascal]

This season was the first time we lost to them since they had Shaq. I didnt know 1 was a lot.
? I don't get what your talking about.

[rascal]

If you don't think Dirk was a lucky draft pick, you are insane. They also traded a number one lottery pick for Michael Finley. Without those bits of luck, they wouldn't have been anywhere either.
Dirk was not luck. Trades are not luck. Luck is getting a lucky ping pong ball to land Duncan.

[Obstructed_View]

? I don't get what your talking about.
You are implying that Kobe was the only reason that the Lakers beat the Spurs. There was this Shaq guy that's kind of good that used to be there.

[Obstructed_View]

Dirk was not luck. Trades are not luck. Luck is getting a lucky ping pong ball to land Duncan.
If Dirk wasn't a lucky pick, then why didn't the Clippers draft him instead of Olowakandi?

[rascal]

Of course Shaq played a big role. But bowen did not stop Bryant nor did he even slow him down. The top players in the league will not be stopped.

I remember bryant going off many times on Bowen in the playoffs.

[ducks]

what has dallas ever done?
or yeah choked in the finals one of the very few teams ever to blow a 2-0 lead in the finals

[rascal]

You are implying that Kobe was the only reason that the Lakers beat the Spurs. There was this Shaq guy that's kind of good that used to be there.
I am not implying that Kobe was the onlym reason why they won. I'm implying that the lakers won with Bryant not being stopped or slowed down by Bowen.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

And Kobe 26.6 ppg against us. His year average was 35.4. That's almost a 10 point difference, and THAT IS SOMETHIN. PROPS TO BRUCE.

[rascal]

what has dallas ever done?
or yeah choked in the finals one of the very few teams ever to blow a 2-0 lead in the finals
Dallas turned a weak team into a contender with bold moves and acquiring talent. More acquired talent than the spurs thru trades and fa. do not even argue that they haven't.

[rascal]

Then continue try winning with Bowen starting and continue being disappointed in the playoffs with the core team they have now. What you saw this year you will continue seeing if the spurs only target low end role players.

And be fooled thinking that the spurs were close and would have won a championship this year. Reality is dallas controllled that series and the spurs played to matchup with them.

The spurs are declining with their core and present roster as it is.

[Obstructed_View]

And Kobe 26.6 ppg against us. His year average was 35.4. That's almost a 10 point difference, and THAT IS SOMETHIN. PROPS TO BRUCE.
And I bet his FG% is just as dramatic. If Kobe's scoring 27 and taking ten more shots, those are shots his teammates aren't getting.

[Obstructed_View]

Dallas turned a weak team into a contender with bold moves and acquiring talent. More acquired talent than the spurs thru trades and fa. do not even argue that they haven't.
The Mavericks have taken on bloated contracts that they can afford to sit on until they have value as expiring contracts. There's nothing particularly bold about that unless you do it and you don't have 2.2 billion dollars in your checking account. They have traded and lost as many good players as they've gained, and they've gained a shitload of value for trades from all the high draft picks they've had by being so abysmal for ten years. At some point, making trades with players like they were bubble gum cards, you are going to get lucky. All that said, the only thing the Mavs have to show for it is barely beating the undermanned Spurs in a seven game series only to choke against a vastly inferior Miami Heat team. That's hardly reason for the Spurs to adopt their management style.

[rascal]

And Kobe 26.6 ppg against us. His year average was 35.4. That's almost a 10 point difference, and THAT IS SOMETHIN. PROPS TO BRUCE.

Wrong Bryant Averaged 30 ppg against the spurs.
fg% 38.3 for the year fg% 45

But he shot worse % against other teams. Does that mean those teams have better defenders then Bowen?

[Obstructed_View]

Then continue try winning with Bowen starting and continue being disappointed in the playoffs with the core team they have now. What you saw this year you will continue seeing if the spurs only target low end role players.

And be fooled thinking that the spurs were close and would have won a championship this year. Reality is dallas controllled that series and the spurs played to matchup with them.

The spurs are declining with their core and present roster as it is.
You are a fool. I'm done.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

? I don't get what your talking about.
You said earlier he is why we lost MANY times you are saying at least 2. And we havent lost to them in a single season twice since they had Shaq.

[rascal]

You are a fool. I'm done.
You are a fool.

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Wrong Bryant Averaged 30 ppg against the spurs.
fg% 38.3 for the year fg% 45

But he shot worse % against other teams. Does that mean those teams have better defenders then Bowen?
your link? Here's Mine. (http://www.nbahoy.com.ar/kobe/kobe_bryant_stats20052006.htm)
In 3 games he had 23, 29, and 25 points. Average that it equals actually 25.6 points. So, squeeze me.

[rascal]

Re count your games. He played 4 times against the spurs.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3118/splits;_ylt=Aod8vAT

[Mr.Bottomtooth]

Rhttp://sports.yahoo.com/nba/players/3118/splits;_ylt=Aod8vAT.fU_qZYYMXHTHJOikvLYF

Re count your games. He played 4 times against the spurs.

How do you post links?
Even so. If you get someone to be below their average it is really good. And that is Bruce's job. And he has yet to fail. You click on the little globe with the lock in front of it and then put in the address.

[rascal]

He averged 24 against Orlando and 27 against Minn and 26 against Utah with 33% shooting. Does that mean they have better defenders then bowen on those teams? you see how lame your argument is by pulling up his scoring average for regular season games.

You cannot stop great players like Bryant so do not make false claims that Bowen stopped Bryant.

[Extra Stout]

Wrong Bryant Averaged 30 ppg against the spurs.
fg% 38.3 for the year fg% 45

But he shot worse % against other teams. Does that mean those teams have better defenders then Bowen?
I'll live with an opponent taking a whole bunch of shots at a 38% clip anyday, no matter how many points he scores.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

So have the Spurs returned any of their three championships yet? Clearly their front office does such a poor job that they're undeserving... :rolleyes

[rascal]

So have the Spurs returned any of their three championships yet? Clearly their front office does such a poor job that they're undeserving... :rolleyes
Any team in the league wins championships with Duncan and Robinson on the same roster. Anyone could have drafted those guys. It was the luck of the lottery that landed those two guys.

What great trades or fa have the spurs gotten? To claim Bowen is your best acquisistion outside the draft in the last 10 years is bad.

Put up what they got with what other teams have gotten and its weak. They are an epitome of the saying that its better to be lucky than good.

[ChumpDumper]

Sorry rascal, even Cuban has reined in his spending. The era of the big spenders is closing with a grand total of zero championships for them.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

Any team in the league wins championships with Duncan and Robinson on the same roster. Anyone could have drafted those guys. It was the luck of the lottery that landed those two guys.
That's taking it a little too far, since there are plenty of HOFs out there without rings (Stockton and Malone, anyone) but your basic premise is about right: the Spurs didn't have to do as much as other teams to put themselves in a position to win championships.


What great trades or fa have the spurs gotten? To claim Bowen is your best acquisistion outside the draft in the last 10 years is bad.

Put up what they got with what other teams have gotten and its weak. They are an epitome of the saying that its better to be lucky than good.
So if the Spurs already have enough to win championships with Duncan and Robinson, why should they be taking big risks making splashy acquisitions? They don't have to build a roster that would've won championships without Duncan, they just have to build won that wins with him.

If you can win with Bowen being your biggest free agent hiring (btw, saying that in an insulting way is kind of a slap in the face to imo, one of the ultimate Spurs) then you do it. They already had enough talent to win it all, and at that point adding more can be counterproductive. Once you've got the talent the Spurs had (and have, hopefully) it becomes more a issue of character and chemistry and I don't think you can deny the Spurs have done a really good job in that regard.

[Obstructed_View]

I'll live with an opponent taking a whole bunch of shots at a 38% clip anyday, no matter how many points he scores.
Especially when the Spurs don't have to spend nearly as much time doubling him because of Bowen. When you have Shaq on the same team then it's George and Fisher that kill you, not Kobe.

[Extra Stout]

Especially when the Spurs don't have to spend nearly as much time doubling him because of Bowen. When you have Shaq on the same team then it's George and Fisher that kill you, not Kobe.
Remember the days when the Spurs went out and acquired players that could help them win?

[Obstructed_View]

Remember the days when the Spurs went out and acquired players that could help them win?
Yeah, everybody bitched about players they didn't know anything about as though they were smarter than the front office two days into the free agent period. Oh, wait. We still do that.

[Dalhoop]

The Mavs draft history is REALLY bad, until recently

Remember these first round selections (remember they were picking high in the draft)

Cherokee Parks, Loren Meyer, Samaki Walker, Kelvin Cato, Robert Traylor, Leon Smith, Etan Thomas, Courntey Alexander, Donnell Harvey

Those where the draft picks from 95-03 .... All first round picks ..... All busts.

Now through trades we have built the team that we have.

If you think that the team is built on money ... your wrong. If you remove Finley from both the Spurs and Mavs payroll .... the two teams payroll are VERY close to the same ... just under 60M (this is why we let him go).

The team was built with the trade of big contracts, Yes. But you have to have something that someone else wants in order for it to have value.

In '04 the Mavs traded value for better value ... Delk and Walker for Henderson and Terry; Laettner and Najera for Dampier and Dickau; Jamison for Harris and Stackhouse.

Dirk was a trade (Robert Traylor on draft day)

You see .... the Mavs were built though the trade, not through money signings, and until resently, not though the draft. That is what the poster was saying ... That the Spurs don't do much in FA signings or trades. So when they have a crappy draft (Or no draft at all like this year) then they are at a disadvantage to teams that are good at the trade.

[Obstructed_View]

Dirk was not a trade. They picked Traylor for Milwaukee because they knew Dirk would still be there at 9. If they couldn't have traded down they would still have taken Dirk.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

The title of this thread is a misnomer... "besides the big 3..." How many teams in the league have 3 star-level players? We are extremely fortunate to have 3 All-stars. What would you prefer, that we do a Barkley for Perry/Lang/Hornacek and bring back 3 slightly better role players for one of our stars??? :rolleyes

Obviously you don't remember the days when DRob, the lone star we had from '89 until Tim arrived, was forced to play with a bunch of scrubs. Hell, Elliot, Lil Gen, Rodman and Big Dog Carr were about the only decent players he had in nearly a decade.

Be thankful that we have the Big 3 at all, and be thankful that the FO usually does a good job fitting role players in around them. Remeber, we would probably have a 4-peat right now but for that utterly bogus .4sec, and a stupid foul.

I REALLY HATE this prissy sense of entitlement that so many Spurs fans have, like the league owes us something... WE HAVE THE BIG 3 FER CHRISTSAKE!!!

[Duncanfan]

"Besides the big 3, the Spurs have nothing."
What the heck!?!?!? Are you crazy!? How about Bowen!? Finley? Barry? and though he had an off playoff run.. Horry?
The Spurs are a quality center away from being the team to beat in the West this 06/07 season so don't give me that bs about the Spurs having nothing besides the big 3.

As for the Mavericks, I some Spurs fans still disrespect the Mavs the way they do up to this time. Sure he's annoying but what Cuban did to turn this franchise around is not something that happens everyday. He did a great job to turn the Mavs into what they are right now, a winning team.
Some posters don't wanna give the Mavs credit for winning against the Spurs in the 2nd round of the playoffs last season... well think again! Weren't the Mavs 1 tip in away from eliminating the Spurs in game 5? Weren't the Spurs a bit lucky that they managed to pull off a 5 point victory against a Jason Terry less Mavs in game 6? It's one thing to be a fan who loves your team.. it's another to be a fan who believes in his team too much that his close mindedness makes him look like an idiot.
The Mavs loss to Miami was due to inexperience. View it in whatever way you want but I tell you, that loss ignited the Mav's will to get better and return to the finals. I'm willing to bet that they will be a lot more focused next season.

[Dalhoop]

They picked Traylor and traded him for Dirk .... thats a trade ... no matter the situation ... its a trade. The fact is that the Wolves ... or was it the Bucks, I get the two mixed up .... had their hands on Dirk and let him go.

The Mavs still have alot of money on the payroll ... money that is going nowhere. They are paying 27.6M to players that are not even on the team (Bradley, Finley, Abdul-Wahad and Eschmeyer). If you erase those contracts the Mavs payroll is almost 15M less then the Spurs and under the Cap.

The Mavs are paying almost 15M less for their players then the Spurs are. This is not a case of a rich team "buying" players, its a matter of a smart team making the moves to improve.

So you have to wonder how much of this "we are strained by the cap" and "we are a small market team with a lower income" is true and how much the ownership is trying to cover for themselves and their in-activity this post season.

[Obstructed_View]

They picked Traylor and traded him for Dirk .... thats a trade ... no matter the situation ... its a trade. The fact is that the Wolves ... or was it the Bucks, I get the two mixed up .... had their hands on Dirk and let him go.
NBA rules don't allow teams to trade first round picks. They therefore have to take each others players and trade them. The Bucks would have taken Traylor at 9. The Mavs would have taken Dirk at 6. If the Mavericks had taken Traylor at 6 and not traded the pick to the Bucks, they would have taken Paul Pierce, not Dirk. Dirk was not a trade, he was Donn Nelson's pick all the way, and nobody else had him on their radar. At the time everyone thought he was just another in the long line of tall white guys that the Nelsons always picked. The Bucks traded up to get Dallas' pick because they were afraid someone else was going to take Traylor before 9.

[Dalhoop]

The Spurs are a quality center away from being the team to beat in the West this 06/07 season so don't give me that bs about the Spurs having nothing besides the big 3.

This is simple not true, unless by quality you mean Shaq or Yao :)

The problem with the Spurs is two fold and both were shown to the League in the Mavs series.

1) Old
2) Slow

The only players on the team that are under 30 are Duncan, Parker and Manu (Not really but I posted the ages earlier and I'm to lazy to go back) This would be too bad, but almost half the team is close to retirement age (Horry, Barry, Bowen, Williams and Finley)

About the slow thing. Parker was supposed to be the "fastest PG in the league", the Mavs had TWO that were faster.

The Spurs were so concerned with what the Mavs could throw at them that after game 1 they abandoned the defense first game style that got them everything the last several years and tried to out score the Mavs (They came close, closer then I thought they would)

If you think that the Spurs were "close" your very wrong, the Mavs did control the series from the second game on (when the started "small ball"). The only thing that kept the Spurs close in ANY game was Duncan doing his Superman imitation ..... How long do you think that he can do that?

The Spurs need alot of help, they need to move the oldsters and bring in some younger faster players ... Thats why the draft was so confusing ... they needed youth and traded out of the draft and got nothing .... Very confusing

[Winnipeg_Spur]

The problem with the Mavs is two fold and both were shown to the League in the Heat series.

1) Heartless
2) Choke artists

[THE SIXTH MAN]

About the slow thing. Parker was supposed to be the "fastest PG in the league", the Mavs had TWO that were faster.
Nice to see you didn't do your homework. T Park was playing through injuries from the Sac series.

[THE SIXTH MAN]

If you think that the Spurs were "close" your very wrong, the Mavs did control the series from the second game on (when the started "small ball"). The only thing that kept the Spurs close in ANY game was Duncan doing his Superman imitation ..... How long do you think that he can do that?
How did small ball work for you in the finals? :lol

[Obstructed_View]

About the slow thing. Parker was supposed to be the "fastest PG in the league", the Mavs had TWO that were faster.
The Mavs had at least two that were healthier. More about this in a moment.


The Spurs were so concerned with what the Mavs could throw at them that after game 1 they abandoned the defense first game style that got them everything the last several years and tried to out score the Mavs (They came close, closer then I thought they would)
The coach fucking panicked after nobody but Duncan showed up for game 2 and completely overhauled his gameplan and threw a short lineup with a banged up point guard and no backup at the Mavericks after surrendering HCA. This came one series after he allowed Parker to get the piss beat out of him because he failed to develop Parker's backup and was afraid to bring him in with only a 25 point lead. All evidence shows that that panic has continued into the offseason, but the Spurs were still the better team by the end of the series against the Mavs, and had finally figured out how to win, even short handed. Give them a season with a system they will actually use in the playoffs and they will hold their own against anyone, even with Francisco Elson or Whoever Thafuckavic playing center. If the Spurs hadn't completely laid a fucking egg in game 2 or decided to spot the Mavericks an entire quarter in game 7, the series could have been drastically different. I only mention it because those are preparation and mental errors, not age and speed errors.

[Obstructed_View]

The problem with the Mavs is two fold and both were shown to the League in the Heat series.

1) Heartless
2) Choke artists

3) Bad Sports
4) Classless Losers
5) Cruel to exercise equipment

[Winnipeg_Spur]

5) Cruel to exercise equipment
:lol

[timvp]

Besides the big 3, the Spurs have nothing

Correction.

We have Mr. Belding or whatever this New Zealanders name is.

[Dalhoop]

Nice to see you didn't do your homework. T Park was playing through injuries from the Sac series.
Just like Duncan was playing injured? I wish players/teams would stop using this as an excuse.


How did small ball work for you in the finals?
The Heat are a different team then The Spurs. We hardly used small ball with them, Griffen was the starting SG in the Finals.


The coach fucking panicked after nobody but Duncan showed up for game 2 and completely overhauled his gameplan and threw a short lineup with a banged up point guard and no backup at the Mavericks after surrendering HCA. This came one series after he allowed Parker to get the piss beat out of him because he failed to develop Parker's backup and was afraid to bring him in with only a 25 point lead.
This does make sense, but I am not sure a coach at this level "panics" and tosses five years of successful game planning into the wind. Pop doesn't seem like the type to panic.


Give them a season with a system they will actually use in the playoffs and they will hold their own against anyone, even with Francisco Elson or Whoever Thafuckavic playing center.

Again I would agree with this, but if the team has any center he will play the same number of minutes next year vs the Mavs as Nazr and Rasho did this past year (Not many)


If the Spurs hadn't completely laid a fucking egg in game 2 or decided to spot the Mavericks an entire quarter in game 7, the series could have been drastically different.

And if a tip-in goes in at the buzzer the Mavs would have won 4-1 .... Thats how close the Spurs were to lossing BADLY ... but you say they are close ... whatever.


I only mention it because those are preparation and mental errors, not age and speed errors.

I mention that because it was simple tip-in .. no errors at all, a simple tip-in. the Spurs were a tip-in away from lossing 4-1 to the Mavs ... talk about a bad foul at the end of game seven all you want ... The Spurs were lucky to make it to game 6 (a tip-in is a very high % shot)


The problem with the Mavs is two fold and both were shown to the League in the Heat series.

1) Heartless
2) Choke artists

5) Cruel to exercise equipment

I think the Finals showed what a superstar can do when given the ball, Wade was .... just WOW. I do think that we were a little .... unprepared for the Finals. We didn't play our game all series, some of that is credit to the Heat, but some also falls on the teams first Finals appearance ... those things happen, I am over it long ago.

Going to have to plead guilty on number 5, but I will say one thing, that exersize bike will never fuck with Dirk again.

[Kori Ellis]

Just like Duncan was playing injured? I wish players/teams would stop using this as an excuse.




Duncan had a chronic problem all year -- everyone knows that.

I think people are just pointing out to you that Tony sustained actual injuries at the end of the Kings series beginning of the Mavs series. He had two very bad thigh bruises and then a groin pull. The night before Game 2 (Mavs series) the Spurs had thought they would have to scratch him because he could barely walk and certainly couldn't run. The training staff got him ready the morning of the game and he made a go of it.

It's not an excuse. It's a reality that he couldn't finish or be as fast as normal because he had no legs or lift in the Mavs series.

And he still averaged 20ppg.

[TDMVPDPOY]

The Mavs draft history is REALLY bad, until recently

Remember these first round selections (remember they were picking high in the draft)

Cherokee Parks, Loren Meyer, Samaki Walker, Kelvin Cato, Robert Traylor, Leon Smith, Etan Thomas, Courntey Alexander, Donnell Harvey

Those where the draft picks from 95-03 .... All first round picks ..... All busts.

Now through trades we have built the team that we have.

If you think that the team is built on money ... your wrong. If you remove Finley from both the Spurs and Mavs payroll .... the two teams payroll are VERY close to the same ... just under 60M (this is why we let him go).

The team was built with the trade of big contracts, Yes. But you have to have something that someone else wants in order for it to have value.

In '04 the Mavs traded value for better value ... Delk and Walker for Henderson and Terry; Laettner and Najera for Dampier and Dickau; Jamison for Harris and Stackhouse.

Dirk was a trade (Robert Traylor on draft day)

You see .... the Mavs were built though the trade, not through money signings, and until resently, not though the draft. That is what the poster was saying ... That the Spurs don't do much in FA signings or trades. So when they have a crappy draft (Or no draft at all like this year) then they are at a disadvantage to teams that are good at the trade.

have a owner willin to dish money to build a team and pay luxery tax is also an advantage

[Dalhoop]

have a owner willin to dish money to build a team and pay luxery tax is also an advantage

We didn't get the players we have by signing FA, thats the whole point. It all started with the trade for Juwan Howard, almost the entire team can be traced back to that trade.

Teams don't need money to compete, the Mavs are paying 49.1M for the player on the floor compaired to 61M for the Spurs.

Now the Mavs are paying for players that have retired or moved on, but the team on the court is very cost effective at 49M

[TDMVPDPOY]

wat is pissin me off atm is toronto raptors signin anthony parker for under MLE, who is unproven in the nba, but experience in euro, as compared to javtokas/scola who also has experience in europe isnt even given a look at joining the spurs, instead we go out sign two scrubs. Im pretty sure scola/javtokas couldve been attained by using MLE.

win now or win layter?

[rascal]

Welcome Dalhoop. Your bringing good takes. Dallas ownership has done a far better job thanthe spurs in transforming their team with smart trades. The spurs always find reasons why they can't pull the trigger and get a top player via trade instead settling for role players.

That is the thinking of the previous spurs front office (trying to win with vinny Del Negro) and now this one that wasted much of Robinson's career with the spurs. It wasn't until they were lucky to get Duncan did they move up to a higher level.

Duncan is so good he can mask the inadaquacies of the front office regarding trades and fa signings.

[Spurs Dynasty 21]

Spurs got damn lucky with Robinson and Duncan


what if the Spurs had the #1 pick in 2000 with Kwame or this year?




Spurs are just pissing away Duncan and taking him for granted, Duncan's greatness is why the Spurs have 3 titles and D Rob's greatness why the Spurs where a good squad in the 90's

[dknights411]

Spurs got damn lucky with Robinson and Duncan


what if the Spurs had the #1 pick in 2000 with Kwame or this year?




Spurs are just pissing away Duncan and taking him for granted, Duncan's greatness is why the Spurs have 3 titles and D Rob's greatness why the Spurs where a good squad in the 90's

Considering that the essential core of the team is coming back next year (Tim, Manu, Tony, Bruce, Michael, Robert, Brent, heck throw in Beno too), I hardly think the Spurs are pissing Duncan away.

[Extra Stout]

Considering that the essential core of the team is coming back next year (Tim, Manu, Tony, Bruce, Michael, Robert, Brent, heck throw in Beno too), I hardly think the Spurs are pissing Duncan away.
A significant chunk of the essential core you listed will be 35 or over next season. You can't count on those guys anymore.

[dknights411]

A significant chunk of the essential core you listed will be 35 or over next season. You can't count on those guys anymore.

If we can't count on anyone over 35, then why was Bruce chosen to tryout for the Dream Team in 2008? Just curious.

[Obstructed_View]

Just like Duncan was playing injured? I wish players/teams would stop using this as an excuse.
If I'd said Parker being injured was the reason the Spurs lost, that might be an excuse, I was simply saying that his inability to walk the night before the game might be the reason someone was was faster than he was. You've seen Parker torch Harris enough to know it's at least feasable.



This does make sense, but I am not sure a coach at this level "panics" and tosses five years of successful game planning into the wind. Pop doesn't seem like the type to panic.
Yet tossing five years of successful game planning to the wind is exactly what he did. The only rationale for completely keeping Rasho and Nazr out of the last five games of the series has been ifs and buts, generally by the "dirk would have scored 50 a game" crowd. I like Popovich as much as anyone does, so it doesn't exactly make me happy to accuse him of panicking. Until someone comes up with a more adequate explanation, that's what I'm stuck with.



Again I would agree with this, but if the team has any center he will play the same number of minutes next year vs the Mavs as Nazr and Rasho did this past year (Not many)
If the Spurs start changing their gameplan as soon as they face the Mavericks, the Mavericks will kick their ass again.



And if a tip-in goes in at the buzzer the Mavs would have won 4-1 .... Thats how close the Spurs were to lossing BADLY ... but you say they are close ... whatever.
Actually, if Stackhouse takes the easy 2 or Dirk hits the tip-in in game 1, the Mavs have a chance to sweep. Ifs and buts in early games are tough to predict because teams react differently from losses and wins. Game 7 went to overtime. That's definite. The series was therefore close. The Mavericks, in my opinion, benefitted greatly from Pop and his staff's complete inability to coach the team or prepare a gameplan.


Going to have to plead guilty on number 5, but I will say one thing, that exersize bike will never fuck with Dirk again.
:lol

[Dalhoop]

If we can't count on anyone over 35, then why was Bruce chosen to tryout for the Dream Team in 2008? Just curious.

First off, its a try-out, not a selection. Having said that he will most likely make the team .... and play very few minutes. USA Basketball is trying hard to appear that they are looking to feild a more complete team then just the scoring machines of times past. This means that defensive players, rebounders and "bangers" will get invites to try-out for the team.

The real question is will the actualy select a well-rounded team, or just pick the star players again.

Hopefully they learned their lesson in the last olympics.


The only rationale for completely keeping Rasho and Nazr out of the last five games of the series has been ifs and buts, generally by the "dirk would have scored 50 a game" crowd.

I would argee with this, he would be played by the Center and torch them... unless the Spurs would go to a Zone. By going small with Harris, Terry, Howard, Dirk and Diop; there is no-one for the center to guard if you want to keep Duncan from guarding Dirk and risking foul trouble. Add to the situation that if you put Bowen on Dirk in the line-up then you have these match-ups

Harris -- Parker
Terry -- Manu
Howard -- Center
Dirk -- Bowen
Dampier -- Duncan

Because Duncan guards Diop/Dampier and Bowen gets Dirk .. there simply is nowhere for a Spurs center to play on defense .... Howard is WAY to quick to be guarded by a Center. This is why the Spurs centers didn't get any play ... because they cannot cover Howard or his replacement Stackhouse, its not a knock on them, its just the way the Spurs are set-up

Even with the greatest center in the game (Shaq) the Heat had to go Zone to keep him on the floor when the Mavs went small. It just so happened that the Zone idea worked, but still, if the Spurs had a center worth talking about ... who would he play vs the Mavs speed line-up ... because you know ... thats the only line-up that the Spurs are going to see this upcomeing year

[Obstructed_View]

The center guards the rim. The Spurs played zone against a smaller, quicker, more athletic Nets team in 2003 and did fine. In fact they spent way more time playing zone than they did pulling both of their starting centers out of the rotation. They've played man over zone before as well. I'd much rather dare Howard and Harris to beat the Spurs with their jumpshots than let them go to the rim or the foul line a thousand times. Hell, I'd rather dare Dirk to do the same. The Spurs traditionally won with shot blocking, not with great man-to-man defense. The lack of both is what killed them.

[strangeweather]

The Spurs played zone against a smaller, quicker, more athletic Nets team in 2003 and did fine.
The Nets had horrible shooters.

That's a workable strategy against some teams, and hopeless against others.

[mavsfan1000]

Yeah the Nets were one of the worst shooting teams in the league. That's a horrible comparison considering the mavs have much better shooters.

[Trainwreck2100]

That's a horrible comparison considering the mavs have much better shooters.


Yeah, but they have the same number of Finals victories

[Obstructed_View]

Yeah the Nets were one of the worst shooting teams in the league. That's a horrible comparison considering the mavs have much better shooters.
Like Devin Harris and Josh Howard? Please. Jason Kidd and Kerry Kittles will outshoot those two any time.

[Obstructed_View]

The Nets had horrible shooters.

That's a workable strategy against some teams, and hopeless against others.
I agree. Against a Mavericks team that is scoring at will in the paint and shooting about 80 percent, it seemed like it would have at least been worth a try rather than sending your centers back to San Antonio on the bus after game 2.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Besides my nuts and my sack I am a she. =(