War-

[AFE7FATMAN]

The Lebanese ambassador to Washington, Farid Abboud, was recalled to Beirut on Thursday.the recall comes following comments the ambassador made to CNN which were understood as praising Hizbullah's attack on Israel on Wednesday.

Russia on Thursday condemned the Israeli attacks on Lebanon and in Gaza, and called for the release of Israeli hostages.

In a strongly worded statement, Foreign Ministry spokesman Mikhail Kamynin also called for Israel to respect Lebanon's sovereignty

Israel is imposing a sea and air blockade on Lebanon, a senior Israeli military official said Thursday.

The official spoke after Israeli aircraft bombed Beirut's international airport. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he is not authorized to discuss military tactics with reporters.

Source JERUSALEM Post and Drudge Report
From Lebanon the towns of Nahariya and Mt. Meron were attacked as well as other locations throughout the north, including Rosh Pina, Tzfat, Margaliot, Machanayim, Machanayim Airport, Beit Hillel, Kfar HaNasi, and Mishmar HaYarden have been attacked and IMO Israel should hammer all Lebanon, untill all hostile agression cease to exist, and the soilders returned and if necessary make Lebanon into a parking lot.

That fact that Arab terrorists kill civilians doesnt quite legitimize Israel do the same but it is the only thing they understand.

[Nbadan]

How could the peace process fail and the whole area be on the brink without the diplomatic example of the U.S.?

47 people killed, countless injured and property destroyed, including civilian infrastructure and a naval blockage all for the kidnapping of two IAF troops? Sounds rational.

[AFE7FATMAN]

I really didn't mean all of Beirut for instance The American University in Beirut nor the Yashrefiye district in Beirut where all the christians live in this parking lot? Nor did I want to include the Jewish quarters and the synagogh across the field from Rafic Hariris monument in this parking lot to be.

Nor the Starbucks on Rue Hamra (and the other ones) in the parking lot?

Nike Concept store in downtown? It is also not a good idea to time the parkinglot redevelopment of the exhibition center while 50-cent is having a concert?

Lebanon is made up uf 40% christians and 60% muslems, but all of them are 100% lebenese most of all. The majority of the lebanese people love money and luxury cars more than anything else, and don´t really find politics interesting.

The problem is that the minority has more power than they should because of the fact that they have received weapons from other players that they should not have. This means that every PM that suggests that Hesbollha should have their weapons taken away instantly dies in a carbomb. Every reporter that suggests that hezbollah is bad for the country instantly dies in a carbomb.

Beirut has previously been the financial center of that region and was on good way of becoming it again. Banks, international companies, investors...they all gether in Beirut.

Beirut is truly international and the most western and american culture adopted city in the region.

Yep time to kill more terriosts.(Sarcasm)

[Nbadan]

Attacks have been perpetuated on both sides, but only one country occupys the other. The Syrians may be selling the Lebanese government weapons, but who sells them to the Israelis? Who is the largest arms dealer in the world?

[boutons_]

The Arabs and Muslims understand nothng but power and death.
Diplomacy, talking will never work.
Israel knows this, and is simply playing the only game they can, with the rules of game defined by Arabs and Muslims, who also know exactly the rules of THEIR game.

The logic, the calculus of Israeli hostagaes equaling X dead on the Arab/Muslim side (don't even talk about infrastructure destruction) simply doesn't compute.

Taking Israeli hostages was not a random act by Palestinians and Hisbollah.

Shiite Iran and Syria surely are involved here.

Edgar and his puppet Charlie have stepped into shit so deep they are powerless to do anything. They lit the fire under the cauldron but it's they who are getting boiled alive.

[boutons_]

Hizbollah is not necessarily the Lebanese but Syrians, Iranians, al-Qaida.

[MannyIsGod]

Hizbollah is not necessarily the Lebanese but Syrians, Iranians, al-Qaida.Exactly, which is why Israel is going about things in a really fucking stupid way. But whats new?

[ObiwanGinobili]

War! huh-yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Uh-huh

War! huh-yeah
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again y'all

War! huh good God
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

Ohhh? War! I despise
Because it means destruction?
Of innocent lives

War means tears
to thousands of mothers eyes
When their sons go to fight
and lose their lives

I said - War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War! Whoa, Lord ...
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

War! It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War! Friend only to the undertaker
War! It's an enemy to all mankind
The thought of war blows my mind

War has caused unrest in the younger generation
Induction then destruction-
Who wants to die?

Ohhh? War Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it, Say it, Say it

War! Uh-huh Yeah - Huh!
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

War! It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War! It's got one friend, that's the undertaker
War has shattered many a young mans dreams
Made him disabled bitter and mean
Life is much to precious to spend fighting wars these days
War can't give life, it can only take it away

War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Absolutely nothing
Say it again

War! Whoa, Lord ...
What is it good for
Absolutely nothing
Listen to me?

War! It ain't nothing but a heartbreaker
War! Friend only to the undertaker
Peace Love and Understanding;
tell me, is there no place for them today?
They say we must fight to keep our freedom
But Lord knows there's got to be a better way

War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
You tell me
Say it, Say it, Say it

War! Huh Good God y'all
What is it good for?
Stand up and shout it.
Nothing!

[xrayzebra]

How could the peace process fail and the whole area be on the brink without the diplomatic example of the U.S.?

47 people killed, countless injured and property destroyed, including civilian infrastructure and a naval blockage all for the kidnapping of two IAF troops? Sounds rational.


I don't know how you equate our diplomatic process and Israel doing their
thing about the soldiers.

[Crookshanks]

Israel is fed up with the rocket attacks, suicide bombers and calls for restraint from the International community.

Israel didn't start this - they are just defending themselves from the attacks. Do you think if Mexico or Canada lobbed 1,000 bombs into the US that we would just turn the other cheek?

Hezbollah and Hamas don't understand diplomacy - they only understand war and violence. They want the Jews run into the sea and will never stop the violence.

[Yonivore]

Exactly, which is why Israel is going about things in a really fucking stupid way. But whats new?
Hezbullah has Syrian and Iranian funded headquarters in Beirut and Southern Lebanon.

I actually think most Lebanese welcome this housecleaning.

Hell, even Egyptian President Mubarek was saying the Syrians have fucked up this time.

All those fucker had to do was return the soldiers. Now, it's game on.

[clambake]

Your right, it's game on. Until we have to join Israel, then it's game over.

[Yonivore]

Your right, it's game on. Until we have to join Israel, then it's game over.
I don't think Israel's going to need our help...unless, Iran is stupid enough to try something.

[clambake]

If Iran is stupid enough? Their playing us like a fiddle right now. What better way to paint the US as the worlds true evil empire. What better way to unit the muslim community.

[MannyIsGod]

Hezbullah has Syrian and Iranian funded headquarters in Beirut and Southern Lebanon.

I actually think most Lebanese welcome this housecleaning.

Hell, even Egyptian President Mubarek was saying the Syrians have fucked up this time.

All those fucker had to do was return the soldiers. Now, it's game on.Yeah, I'm sure thats why the Lebanese are fleeing their country right now. Because they welcome having their airport bombed.

This is fucking stupid beyond belief. You finally get a democratic government in place in that country and instead of helping them you fucking bomb them. Brilliant!

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Your right, it's game on. Until we have to join Israel, then it's game over.

They didn't need our help in '67, they won't need it now either.

[Yonivore]

If Iran is stupid enough? Their playing us like a fiddle right now. What better way to paint the US as the worlds true evil empire. What better way to unit the muslim community.
I don't see a whole lot of uniting going on. Not much beyond the typical, almost obligatory, condemnations. But, I don't think this is your daddy's Lebanon.

Lebanese blogger Raja (http://lebanesebloggers.blogspot.com/2006/07/oblivious-resident.html) provides us with a tough translation of what Hassan Nasrallah said in his news conference:

The operation took place at 9:05 AM. The Israeli response began at 10:30 AM. The . This is the only way to move forward. This is the natural choice. It is the only way to free the prisoners. If anybody has any options please tell me. Also let them tell me why those means have not succeeded over the past 20 years. We are highlighting to the world our cause. There are over 10,000 Lebanese, Palestinian and Arab prisoners that need to be released. Our aim is to close the issue of prisoners completely. And the only way to do so is to take Israeli prisoners of our own. We also seek to help the Palestinians in Gaza. This is a message to the Israelis: our self-control is not weakness. It is merely taking calculated moves.

We tell the Israelis that the only way to free the Israelis is through indirect negotiations and a prisoner exchange. The Israelis and the World can do whatever they want, but they won't get anywhere. No military operation will get anywhere if the objective is to free the soldiers. If the military operation is intended to punish Lebanon, then they should expect surprizes. We have been preparing for an Israeli invasion since the day the Israelis were kicked out.

Message to Lebanese: Nobody should behave in a way that would encourage the enemy. now is the time that we should unite. All politicians should act in a patriotic way. The government should act in a patriotic way. We acted in a patriotic way - you can agree or disagree with me. The government is asking us to keep Lebanon in mind. I say okay. But the way to keep Lebanon in mind is to prevent its exposure to Israeli aggression. I have gotten a number of phone calls saying that we should return the soldiers as soon as possible without asking for anything in return. That is not a reasonable request.
Lebanese blogger R is pissed off and puts it so well


What the fuck is wrong with these retards? Kidnapping Israeli soldiers? fighting them, drawing them into the country? And why? Has anything happened recently? Did the Isreali warplanes’ buzzing of the Syrian dictator’s summer palace bother the “resistance” so much? Do they feel with the Palestinian cause enough to risk their own “country”? Well… they don’t believe in the country, true… so I guess that’s not a valid argument.

How about not being stupid? Do you want an Israeli invasion? Is that what you want you hairy-assed masochists? I don’t get it. The world is moving forward, and terrorist and rogue nations are being sidelined. Lebanon was on its way up, somehow, ridding itself of the Syrians, open “discussions” in parliament, breaching taboo subjects… There was a glimmer of hope. What are we now? A nation on the terror list again?

Read the whole thing (http://blog.rrizk.com/?p=444).

I also hear there's footage of the Israeli and Palestinian ambassadors to the U.N. going toe-to-toe in New York -- here (http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/07/12/mideast.conversation/index.html).

Now, if Hezbullah is successful in transporting the Israeli soldiers to Iran (as is currently being reported), then it may be more than game on...we may move to the main event.

Tricky times.

[clambake]

They were the luckiest bastards on earth in 67. We didn't have time to help.

[Yonivore]

Yeah, I'm sure thats why the Lebanese are fleeing their country right now. Because they welcome having their airport bombed.

This is fucking stupid beyond belief. You finally get a democratic government in place in that country and instead of helping them you fucking bomb them. Brilliant!
Of course, your answer is to capitulate and release hundreds, perhaps thousands, of terrorists in order to purchase the return of the soldiers?

Then what?

And, to be honest with you, I think the Lebanese, while understandably fleeing during hostilities, are thankful this is going to finally rid them of their Syrian and Hezbullah terrorist influences.

[Yonivore]

They were the luckiest bastards on earth in 67. We didn't have time to help.
Lucky? How?

They were smart. They still are.

[MannyIsGod]

Of course, your answer is to capitulate and release hundreds, perhaps thousands, of terrorists in order to purchase the return of the soldiers?

Then what?

And, to be honest with you, I think the Lebanese, while understandably fleeing during hostilities, are thankful this is going to finally rid them of their Syrian and Hezbullah terrorist influences.I can see how you would logicaly assume that because I am against the bombing of a fledgling government that has been a long time coming I would be for Israel meeting the demands of kidnappers. There are no other options out there, after all.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/images/smilies/smirolleyes.gif

Israel is being counter productive (eh, whats new?) and is only going to hurt itself. Of course if it wants Syria to have more influence once again in Lebanon then it is definetly taking the appropriate actions.

[Yonivore]

I can see how you would logicaly assume that because I am against the bombing of a fledgling government that has been a long time coming I would be for Israel meeting the demands of kidnappers. There are no other options out there, after all.
Name the other options.


Israel is being counter productive...
Of course, kidnapping Israeli soldiers was productive.


...and is only going to hurt itself.
That's yet to be seen. I don't see any of the Arab Nations threatening anything. And, there are no signs of them mobilizing forces. I think Israel may rid Gaza and Lebanon of Syrian and Iranian supported terrorists groups. I think that's their aim. I think they'll be successful.


Of course if it wants Syria to have more influence once again in Lebanon then it is definetly taking the appropriate actions.
Just from the blog I posted, the Lebanese apparently blame the Syrian proxies for bringing this on them. I don't think the Lebanese will allow Syria back in directly...and, I certainly don't think Israel or the U.S. will allow it.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

They were the luckiest bastards on earth in 67. We didn't have time to help.

Right, it's not like we weren't flying SR-71s over the region and sending the intel to Israel.

[clambake]

I've seen footage of the Israeli government and military leaders of that time who readily admit the luck involved with that victory.

But of course, you expect to fight like crazy with your back is against the wall.

[MannyIsGod]

If you want to start with other options you may want to start with what should have happened long before Lebanon's airports started being bombed. They should have gone after SYRIA, not Lebanon.

Seriously, no one denies thats where the arms and money for Hezbollah come from, so why the fuck does it make sense to hurt Beruit? It is flat out obvious to anyone who follows shit that the Lebanese government can't do much about Hezbollah and is a government that Israel should be trying to protect not undermine.

If you don't see how having a civil war break out - AGAIN - to the north is going to hurt Israel then you're a tad bit dumber than I've given you credit for.

Even if their aim was to destroy Hezbollah, then fucking do it. Send ground troops in and do the job that Lebanon can't, but bombing Beriut makes no sense! If Israel wants to destroy this group, then so be it. I can't blame them for that. But once agian, they go about things in a really stupid way and attack people that aren't even involved.

[MannyIsGod]

In 67 they were extremely lucky. The Arab armies were also pretty fucking stupid and made a ton of tacticle errors that cost them. But thats a whole different thread.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

BTW, I agree with Manny. If they want to make this count, they should be bombing Assad into oblivion instead of stirring up the hornet's nest up in Lebanon.

[clambake]

This is no 67. Israel will not find the enemy in columns or companys. This is cat and mouse, and the cat makes for a bigger target. Just ask our troops.

[01Snake]

HOLY COW!! I'm in agreement with boutons on this post!


The Arabs and Muslims understand nothng but power and death.
Diplomacy, talking will never work.
Israel knows this, and is simply playing the only game they can, with the rules of game defined by Arabs and Muslims, who also know exactly the rules of THEIR game.

The logic, the calculus of Israeli hostagaes equaling X dead on the Arab/Muslim side (don't even talk about infrastructure destruction) simply doesn't compute.

Taking Israeli hostages was not a random act by Palestinians and Hisbollah.

Shiite Iran and Syria surely are involved here.

Edgar and his puppet Charlie have stepped into shit so deep they are powerless to do anything. They lit the fire under the cauldron but it's they who are getting boiled alive.

[Yonivore]

If you want to start with other options you may want to start with what should have happened long before Lebanon's airports started being bombed.
It's being suggested the Beirut airport was bombed to cut off the escape route of those that are trying to get the kidnapped soldiers to Iran.


They should have gone after SYRIA, not Lebanon.Hezbullah is in Lebanon. True, they are financed and probaby directed by Syria but, I think you'd of found a lot more Arab outrage if Israel had just started bombing Damascus. Smart thinking there Manny.

Syria will either enter the fray to defend their proxies or cut them loose. Either way -- Hezbullah and Syria lose.


Seriously, no one denies thats where the arms and money for Hezbollah come from, so why the fuck does it make sense to hurt Beruit? It is flat out obvious to anyone who follows shit that the Lebanese government can't do much about Hezbollah and is a government that Israel should be trying to protect not undermine.
My understanding is that Israel is striking strategic Hezbullah sites in Lebanon. They're not just indiscriminately bombing Lebanon. And, again, it appears that at least some Lebanese are in favor of the action.


If you don't see how having a civil war break out - AGAIN - to the north is going to hurt Israel then you're a tad bit dumber than I've given you credit for.
There's also speculation that Israel has tacit approval from Fatah, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, and Lebanon to do what they're doing. I don't think Lebanon is going to be worse off after this is over.

I guess we'll see. But, since Hezbullah is entrenched in Lebanon and they are the ones that committed an act of war against Israel, that's where the fighting needs to be done.


Even if their aim was to destroy Hezbollah, then fucking do it.
They may well do just that...I'm beginning to believe the days of Israeli restraint in dealing with these animals may be at an end. Hamas too.


Send ground troops in and do the job that Lebanon can't, but bombing Beriut makes no sense!
It makes sense if the terrorists were trying to flee from that airport. eh?


If Israel wants to destroy this group, then so be it. I can't blame them for that. But once agian, they go about things in a really stupid way and attack people that aren't even involved.
I think you're wrong. Think Chemotherapy. It's not like you can invite the cancer to leave the body so your treatment won't have detrimental affects, now is it?

The fact remains that Hezbullah and Hamas continue to commit acts of terrorism and, then, retreat to cover in civilian neighborhoods and cower among innocents is as atrocious as the acts themselves.

And, how 'bout that, do you feel the same about Hamas? Should the Israelis be allowed to destroy that group as well? If so, you may be making some progress there Manny.

[MannyIsGod]

:lmao @ Lebanon approving their own airport being bombed.

Holy shit do you read what you post? Dude, consider this the last time I ever respond to anything you post because you ARE far dumber than I ever gave you credit for.

[clambake]

Yep, that is "off the chart" speculation. Arab nations wanting to cooperate with Israels military mobilizations.

Let that sink in a bit.

[iminlakerland]

Man this is getting absolutely ridiculous i was going to come in and give my two cents, but Manny pretty much hit the nail with what he's been saying.

But wow i dont think they condoned bombing of the airport that is absolutely ridiculous. I hope my family is ok there :|

[MannyIsGod]

Of course they're not conding the bombing of anything on their soil. It is mind numbingly stuipd for Yonivore to even suggest that. It just goes to show you what kind of a different world this guy lives in.

[Yonivore]

Of course, I never said that.

I said there was speculation that some Arab elements may have approved of what Israel was doing -- going after Hezbullah and Hamas. Because, quite frankly, these two terrorist groups are making it impossible for anything to get done in the Middle East.

As for approving of bombing the airport; I doubt Israel is sharing their military strategy with these guys.

It was separate speculation that bombing the Beirut airport was in response to a report that Hezbullah was trying to escape with the Israeli soldiers, to Iran.

What's ridiculous is how everything in this forum gets construed. But, Manny, I hope you stick to your word and never respond to another of my posts. That's a gift too valuable to hope for.

[clambake]

Tell me more of this "speculation".

Is this something you fish out of your dream catcher every morning? Did it suggest you use the term "Arab elements"?

[Yonivore]

Tell me more of this "speculation".
The last time Israel had a military person go missing in Lebanon, he ended up dead, in Iran. I speculate Israel has blockaded Lebanon and destroyed their runways in order to prevent that.


Is this something you fish out of your dream catcher every morning? Did it suggest you use the term "Arab elements"?
Funny.

[clambake]

You said speculation that arab elements approve of what Israel is doing.

Dodgeball anyone?

[Crookshanks]

I'm listening to the Michael Medved show and he's talking to his brother, who lives in Jerusalem and is active in politics.

This is what he had to say about bombing the Beirut airport - the rockets that Hezbollah is using are coming from Iran. They bombed the airport and blockaded Lebanon to keep Iran from replenishing Hezbollah.

Makes sense to me!

[xrayzebra]

Of course, I never said that.

I said there was speculation that some Arab elements may have approved of what Israel was doing -- going after Hezbullah and Hamas. Because, quite frankly, these two terrorist groups are making it impossible for anything to get done in the Middle East.

As for approving of bombing the airport; I doubt Israel is sharing their military strategy with these guys.

It was separate speculation that bombing the Beirut airport was in response to a report that Hezbullah was trying to escape with the Israeli soldiers, to Iran.

What's ridiculous is how everything in this forum gets construed. But, Manny, I hope you stick to your word and never respond to another of my posts. That's a gift too valuable to hope for.

Pretty obvious to me. He bombed their military airport, now has bombed
the civilian airport because that may be all they had left. Israel
has put their Air Force out of business.

I suspect the reason they haven't gone in against Syria is simply because
they really don't want spread the war any further than they must. But
they do want the Hizbullah out of Lebanon.

If they must, they will spread the conflict. Iran could be next, I suspect,
if things get more of out hand. Syria also.

Crookshank talks about the rockets coming from Iran. Iran may be
suppling them, but they are being launched from Lebanon.

[velik_m]

Iran could be next, I suspect,
if things get more of out hand.

explain. i mean Israel doesn't have border with Iran. any attack would have to go through Turkey or Iraq air space. Turkey will not get involved and if "Iraq" (we know they don't make decisions) gets involved America would be in another even less "pleasant" war. I don't see Israel making a move on Iran.

[Yonivore]

explain. i mean Israel doesn't have border with Iran. any attack would have to go through Turkey or Iraq air space. Turkey will not get involved and if "Iraq" (we know they don't make decisions) gets involved America would be in another even less "pleasant" war. I don't see Israel making a move on Iran.
Maybe Iran is attempting to draw Israel into Syria and then, by treaty, enter the conflict. After all, this is a war with Iran by proxy anyway...so, technically, they're already involved.

Iran’s national security adviser Ali Larijani flies to Damascus aboard special military plane Wednesday night as war tension builds up around Hizballah kidnap of 2 Israeli soldiers. (http://www.debka.com/headline.php?hid=2866)

[scott]

The US could learn a thing or two from Israel. The next time a Mexican drug lord kills a US Border Agent, we should bomb the shit out of Mexico City. That'll teach em.

:rolleyes

This thread is good evidence of the Yonivore Doctorine: If there is a .0000001% chance something might be true and supports a war agenda, then we must assume it is true.

[scott]

And for those wondering... Lebanon's call for a cease fire is just secret code for "Israel, we approve of you bombing us!"

[MannyIsGod]

And for those wondering... Lebanon's call for a cease fire is just secret code for "Israel, we approve of you bombing us!":lmao

[clambake]

Dammit, he broke the code.

[jochhejaam]

US vetoes UN resolution urging end to Israeli attacks in Gaza
Jul 13 3:50 PM US/Eastern
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/13/060713195011.0bs4l5nz.html

The United States vetoed a UN draft resolution that would have called for an end to Israeli attacks and "disproportionate use of force" in the Gaza Strip as well as for the release of a kidnapped Israeli soldier.

The Security Council resolution received 10 votes, one against from the United States with four abstentions, French Ambassador Jean-Marc de la Sabliere, the council president for July, announced.




Thankfully our ambassador, (John "I'm not your punk" Bolton), has the common sense and spine that's missing from the majority of the U.N. members.
They call for and end to the "Israeli" attacks? WTHeck!!! I believe they're responding to aggression on the part of the nutcases that are so prevalant in the Middle East. Disproportionate use of force?!? Nuts to that (and all of the Israel haters), where does it say that when engaging the enemy you may not use greater force than that which they used? That's no deterrent and that's no way to win a war!!!

You idiots in the U.N. may want to condemn and call for an end to the acts of the mindless miscreants that are initiating and instigating the battles in the Middle East, that's not Israel!!

[velik_m]

no surprise there.

[xrayzebra]

explain. i mean Israel doesn't have border with Iran. any attack would have to go through Turkey or Iraq air space. Turkey will not get involved and if "Iraq" (we know they don't make decisions) gets involved America would be in another even less "pleasant" war. I don't see Israel making a move on Iran.

You are correct in that they have no direct access to Iran. But we (meaning
us on this board) have no idea of what Israel's capabilities really are. Meaning
they may have a missile that could reach Iran and be precisely targeted and
hit what it was aimed at. One thing more, I would hope it wouldn't happen,
but Israel does have nukes. And if they are threatened in such a manner
as they think their existence is threatened, I have no doubt that they will
use them in any manner they see fit.

I really don't know how much naval capability that Israel has, in regards
to their underwater fleet, but they may have subs sitting off the coast
of Iran now just waiting for orders.

Israel has long been noted for pre-planning and they know their enemies
well. I am surprised that Iran is pushing things as far as they have.
Some are speculating that they are because they want to stir up trouble
to get the world interested in other matters other than their (Iran's)
nuke program.

Why, I have no idea. The world will not stop their program. They
will do like they have in every situation in the recent past, talk it to death,
North Korea will continue with their programs, unless Japan does
something. And Japan may very well do something. And China and
Korea both know that Japan is quite capable of being a very offensive
nation when they sit their mind to it. along with us.

[boutons_]

Right-wing rabble can skip this message.

I think these three articles give an excellent perspective on the M/E and how dubya/dickhead/wolfie's Repug Iraq war has every chance worsening the region.

=======================

July 14, 2006
Op-Ed Columnist

The Kidnapping of Democracy

By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

When you watch the violence unfolding in the Middle East today it is easy to feel that you’ve been to this movie before and that you know how it ends — badly. But we actually have not seen this movie before. Something new is unfolding, and we’d better understand it.

What we are seeing in Iraq, the Palestinian territories and Lebanon is an effort by Islamist parties to use elections to pursue their long-term aim of Islamizing the Arab-Muslim world. This is not a conflict about Palestinian or Lebanese prisoners in Israel. This is a power struggle within Lebanon, Palestine and Iraq over who will call the shots in their newly elected “democratic’’ governments and whether they will be real democracies.

The tiny militant wing of Hamas today is pulling all the strings of Palestinian politics, the Iranian-backed Hezbollah Shiite Islamic party is doing the same in Lebanon, even though it is a small minority in the cabinet, and so, too, are the Iranian-backed Shiite parties and militias in Iraq. They are not only showing who is boss inside each new democracy, but they are also competing with one another for regional influence.

As a result, the post-9/11 democracy experiment in the Arab-Muslim world is being hijacked. Yes, basically free and fair elections were held in Lebanon, the Palestinian territories and Iraq. Yes, millions turned out to vote because the people of the Arab-Muslim world really do want to shape their own futures.

But the roots of democracy are so shallow in these places and the moderate majorities so weak and intimidated that we are getting the worst of all worlds. We are getting Islamist parties who are elected to power, but who insist on maintaining their own private militias and refuse to assume all the responsibilities of a sovereign government. They refuse to let their governments have control over all weapons. They refuse to be accountable to international law (the Lebanese-Israeli border was ratified by the U.N.), and they refuse to submit to the principle that one party in the cabinet cannot drag a whole country into war.

“Iraq, Lebanon and the Palestinians all held democratic elections,’’ said the Israeli political theorist Yaron Ezrahi, “and the Western expectation was that these elections would produce legitimate governments that had the power to control violence and would assume the burden of responsibility of governing. ... But what happened in all three places is that we [produced] governments which are sovereign only on paper, but not over a territory.’’

Then why do parties like Hamas and Hezbollah get elected? Often because they effectively run against the corruption of the old secular state-controlled parties, noted Mr. Ezrahi. But once these Islamists are in office they revert to serving their own factional interests, not those of the broad community.

Boutros Harb, a Christian Lebanese parliamentarian, said: “We must decide who has the right to make decisions on war and peace in Lebanon. Is that right reserved for the Lebanese people and its legal institutions, or is the choice in the hands of a small minority of Lebanese people?”

Ditto in the fledgling democracies of Palestine and Iraq. When cabinet ministers can maintain their own militias and act outside of state authority, said Mr. Ezrahi, you’re left with a “meaningless exercise’’ in democracy/state building.

Why don’t the silent majorities punish these elected Islamist parties for working against the real interests of their people? Because those who speak against Hamas or Hezbollah are either delegitimized as “American lackeys’’ or just murdered, like Rafiq Hariri, the former Lebanese prime minister.

The world needs to understand what is going on here: the little flowers of democracy that were planted in Lebanon, Iraq and the Palestinian territories are being crushed by the boots of Syrian-backed Islamist militias who are desperate to keep real democracy from taking hold in this region and Iranian-backed Islamist militias desperate to keep modernism from taking hold.

( does WHIG even care to handle the above situation? Remember, democracy was supposed to spilll over from Iraq to all the other shitty regimes in the region. As accurate a WHIG prediction that there would be not insurgency in Iraq. )
It may be the skeptics are right: maybe democracy, while it is the most powerful form of legitimate government, simply can’t be implemented everywhere. It certainly is never going to work in the Arab-Muslim world if the U.S. and Britain are alone in pushing it in Iraq, if Europe dithers on the fence, if the moderate Arabs cannot come together and make a fist, and if Islamist parties are allowed to sit in governments and be treated with respect — while maintaining private armies.

The whole democracy experiment in the Arab-Muslim world is at stake here, and right now it’s going up in smoke.

======================

Behind the Crisis, A Push Toward War

By David Ignatius
Friday, July 14, 2006; A21


After Hezbollah guerrillas captured Israeli soldiers Wednesday, a furious Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz warned that the Israeli army would "turn back the clock in Lebanon by 20 years." Unfortunately, that statement was truer than he may have intended.

By pounding the Beirut airport and other civilian targets yesterday, the Israelis have taken a step back in time -- to tactics that have been tried repeatedly in Lebanon and the Palestinian territories without much success. Many Lebanese will be angry at Hezbollah leader Hasan Nasrallah for provoking the crisis, but that won't translate into new control on the militia's actions. Instead, the outcome is likely to be similar to what has happened in Gaza over the past several weeks: Israeli attacks to free a captured soldier further weakened the Palestinian Authority without much damaging the terrorists.

Watching the events of the past few days, you can't help but feel that this is the rerun of an old movie -- one in which the guerrillas and kidnappers end up as the winners. Israel's fledgling prime minister, Ehud Olmert, wants to emulate the toughness of his predecessor, Ariel Sharon. But that shouldn't include a replay of Sharon's 1982 Lebanon invasion, a strategic mistake that spawned Hezbollah in the first place.

Hezbollah's action in seizing the Israeli soldiers was utterly reckless. That's the new part of this crisis -- that Iranian-backed radicals deliberately opened another front in a war that, in their minds, stretches from Gaza to Iraq. Watching Nasrallah's cocky performance at a news conference Wednesday, I thought that he seemed almost to be inviting an Israeli counterattack -- knowing that it would destabilize the Lebanese government of Fuad Siniora, which is one of the few solid achievements of U.S. policy in the region.

Israeli and American doctrine is premised on the idea that military force will deter adversaries. But as more force has been used in recent years, the deterrent value has inevitably gone down. That's the inner spring of this crisis: The Iranians (and their clients in Hezbollah and Hamas) watch the American military mired in Iraq and see weakness. They are emboldened rather than intimidated. The same is true for the Israelis in Gaza. Rather than reinforcing the image of strength, the use of force (short of outright, pulverizing invasion and occupation) has encouraged contempt.

The danger of Iranian-backed adventurism is immense right now, but that's all the more reason for America and Israel to avoid past mistakes in countering it. Reliable strategic lessons are hard to come by in that part of the world, but here are a few:

The first is that in countering aggression, international solidarity and legitimacy matter. In responding to the Lebanon crisis, the United States should work closely with its allies at the Group of Eight summit and the United Nations. Iran and its proxies would like nothing more than to isolate America and Israel. They would like nothing less than a strong, international coalition of opposition.

A second point -- obvious from Gaza to Beirut to Baghdad -- is that the power of non-state actors is magnified when there is no strong central government. That may sound like a truism, but responding wisely can require some creative diplomacy. The way to blunt Hamas is to build a strong Palestinian Authority that delivers benefits for the Palestinian people. The way to curb Hezbollah is to build up the Lebanese government and army. One way to boost the Lebanese government (and deflate Hezbollah) would be to negotiate the return of the Israeli-occupied territory known as Shebaa Farms. That chance is lost for now, but the Bush administration should find other ways to enhance Siniora's authority.

A final obvious lesson is that in an open, interconnected world, public opinion matters. This is a tricky battlefield for an unpopular America and Israel, but not an impossible one. To fight the Long War, America and Israel have to get out of the devil suit in global public opinion. For a generation, America maintained a role as honest broker between Israel and the Arabs. The Bush administration should work hard to refurbish that role.

In the Lebanon crisis we have a terrifying glimpse of the future: Iran and its radical allies are pushing toward war. That's the chilling reality behind this week's events. On Tuesday the Iranians spurned an American offer of talks on their nuclear program; on Wednesday their Hezbollah proxy committed what Israel rightly called "an act of war." The radicals want to lure America and Israel deeper into the killing ground, confident that they have the staying power to prevail. We should not play their game.

[email protected]


© 2006 The Washington Post Company


====================

The above 2 articles were fairly non-partisan. The next article is totally justified dubya/dickhead/Repug bashing.

The 2006 and 2008 elections absolutely MUST be about the Repug Iraq war, and not hijacked by straw issues like gay marriage, flag burning, estate taxes, tax-cuts for rich, etc.

===================

Big Bang Theory In Ruins
By E. J. Dionne Jr.
Friday, July 14, 2006; A21


The most intellectually honest case for the war in Iraq was never about Saddam Hussein's alleged stockpiling of weapons of mass destruction. It was the Big Bang Theory.

Not to be confused with theories about the origins of the universe, the Middle East Big Bang idea was simple and seductive. Unlike other arguments for the war, it was based on some facts, though also on some wishful thinking. The point was that the Middle East was a mess. A nest of authoritarian regimes bred opposition movements rebelling against the conditions under which too many people lived and energized by a radical Islamist ideology. Some of them turned to terror. In this bog of failure, moderate Muslims were powerless. They were frequently jailed or killed.

The situation's hopelessness argued for a hard shove from the United States to create a new dynamic. Installing a democratic government in Iraq would force a new dawn. Newly empowered Muslim democrats would reform their societies, negotiate peace with Israel and get on with the business of building prosperous, middle-class societies.

It was a beautiful dream, and even when the administration was asserting things that turned out not to be true, it held the dream out there for all to contemplate.

Consider Vice President Cheney's address before the Veterans of Foreign Wars on Aug. 26, 2002, one of the earliest major public arguments the administration made for war. The lead of the news stories was Cheney's claim that there was "no doubt" that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction and was prepared to use them. "The risks of inaction are far greater than the risk of action," Cheney declared.

But then there was the delightful promise of what American success in Iraq could achieve. "Extremists in the region would have to rethink their strategy of jihad," Cheney said. "Moderates throughout the region would take heart, and our ability to advance the Israeli-Palestinian peace process would be enhanced."

Today, with Israeli troops battling on their northern and southern borders, with Iran ignoring calls for negotiations on nuclear weapons, with Baghdad in flames and with many of Iraq's moderates living in fear, those Cheney sentences stand as the most telling indictment of the administration's failures.

If Israelis and Palestinians were closer to peace, if Iraqi democracy showed signs of stability -- these might justify a war fought in part on the basis of false premises.

But when the Big Bang happened, the wreckage left behind took the form of reduced American influence, American armed forces stretched to their limit and a Middle East more dangerously unstable than it was at the beginning of 2003. Whether one ascribes these troubles to the flawed implementation of the Big Bang Theory or to the theory itself, what matters now is how to limit and, if possible, undo some of the damage.

That is what the American debate should be about, but those in charge of Republican campaigns this year have another idea. They have hit upon the brilliant strategy of pushing any serious discussion of the failure of American foreign policy past Election Day. For the next 3 1/2 months, they want the choice before the voters to be binary: staying the course and being "tough," or breaking with President Bush's policy and being "soft." There are just two options on the ballot, they say: firmness or "cut and run."

If I were a Republican strategist, I'd probably do the same thing. But Democrats (and, yes, the media) risk playing into Republican hands if they fail to force a discussion of the administration's larger failures or let the debate focus narrowly on exactly what date we should set for getting out of Iraq.

The case for reducing our commitment to Iraq in the interest of other and larger foreign policy purposes -- has anyone noticed the growing mess in Afghanistan? -- is built on a compelling proposition: that the administration made a huge bet on Iraq and it lost. American voters can decide to keep the gamble going, to risk more lives and money, and hope that something turns up. Or they can decide that this gamble will never deliver the winnings that those who took it on our behalf promised.

By late November of this year, the United States will have been at war in Iraq for as long as we were involved in World War II. Under those circumstances, the burden of proof should not be on those who argue for changing what we're doing. It should be on those who set a failed policy in motion and keep promising, despite the evidence, that it will somehow pay off if only we "stay the course."

[email protected]


© 2006 The Washington Post Company

[xrayzebra]

Interesting articles boutons. But one thing strikes me right off hand. Not one
word was written about the fact(s) that we, the United States was attacked, not
once, on 9/11 but many times.

And yes, many thought that the general population would welcome democracy with
open arms, and I think you can safely say they did. As witnessed by the way they
turned out to vote. As stated in the above articles. How this equates to the
Bush administration being the fall guy I have no idea. Staying the course is our
only solution to the problem if we expect a free society to prevail in Iraq.

The problem with the ME as in Mexico is corruption. It is very much ingrained into
their culture. It has existed since the existence of their world. How that can
be changed is anyone's guess. I certainly don't have the answer. But you can
see evidence of it even here in the U.S. Shop keepers, the stop and rob stores,
who purchased cigarettes they thought had been stolen and no taxes paid. They
saw nothing wrong with that.

Like I have said in previous post and said in the article above, religion is the excuse
used to impose harsh rule, but in truth, money and power are the root of the
problems. The Mullahs and their henchmen rake in cash and hold on to power by
any means possible.

The same in Mexico. Except religion doesn't play the same role. Although the
church has played a role in the past. Money and power is the name of the game.
The leftest guy who lost and wont give up without a fight uses the old Communist
ploy of the poor, which Mexico has plenty of, to gain power. He will throw them
some crumbs as the dimm-o-craps do here in the US, but never solve the problems.
Only the poor can solve their problem. And that is by fighting the corruption that
causes it.

[clambake]

Pretty long read Boutons. It is one-sided and gives the president more credit than he deserves. It kinda suggest he might be a forward thinker, and we know he's not. Bush will never be accused of craftiness or cleverness. That's what is missing with this administration. Smart leaders know how to play both sides of an issue to their advantage. With bush, what you see is what you get.

If there is a God, please help us.

[Sec24Row7]

ROFL manny... they would crush them even harder now IMO...

Just read that you thought they were lucky in 67...

The Arabs/Muslim nations havent had any new parts for their weapons for the most part in the 20 years since the fall of the soviet union.

They're pretty much screwed if Israel decides it wants a piece.

[clambake]

UN security council members keep refering to "the destruction of lebenon's infrastructure". Hezbollah is an ingredient of lebenon's infrastructure, therefore it's in the recipe.

Extremely lucky in 67.

[clambake]

Is anybody else watching UN security council meeting?

Fairly impressed with French ambassador.
A little shocked by Greece's ambassador

[clambake]

Syria still trying to broker a prisoner exchange. Refuses to anwer question if they support hezbollah attacks.

[nkdlunch]

Is anybody else watching UN security council meeting?

Fairly impressed with French ambassador.
A little shocked by Greece's ambassador

why?

[clambake]

Why? Because this more than just sabre rattling.

Sides are being drawn.

[velik_m]

i think USA overstreched itself, they should've just focus on Afganistan and couple of most dangerous terrorists, instead of going into all out war with anything hostile towards US. If they would effectively dealt with couple of worst problems, they would scare others. As it stands they didn't really solve anything. Iraq and Afganistan are a mess just wating to blow up again and no terrorist organizations have been dismantled. It just gives courage to others to stand up against USA and attack it.
Plus they blew up all the support from international community they had after 9/11.

The biggest concern for the USA right now must be that the war doesn't spread. If it spreads it will sooner rather than later pull in americans, whether they want it or not. I don't think US can handle another war as easily as they do the one in Iraq.

[spurster]

This must be democracy spreading throughout the Middle East and their peoples yearning for freedom.

Whatever gave BushCo the idea that they could make things better other there by forcing Western-style democracy? It sounds nice, and it wins election, but it is also incredibly stupid and naive.

No, I am not blaming BushCo for the current mess up. Just the idea that we'll put democracy in Afghanistan and Iraq and then it will magically spread, and we'll all be extra nice to each other.

[clambake]

Palestinian election was a democratic election. Hamas.

[turambar85]

i think USA overstreched itself, they should've just focus on Afganistan and couple of most dangerous terrorists, instead of going into all out war with anything hostile towards US. If they would effectively dealt with couple of worst problems, they would scare others. As it stands they didn't really solve anything. Iraq and Afganistan are a mess just wating to blow up again and no terrorist organizations have been dismantled. It just gives courage to others to stand up against USA and attack it.
Plus they blew up all the support from international community they had after 9/11.

The biggest concern for the USA right now must be that the war doesn't spread. If it spreads it will sooner rather than later pull in americans, whether they want it or not. I don't think US can handle another war as easily as they do the one in Iraq.

LOL, you don't think the U.S could handle another war as easily as the war in Iraq. Are you implying that this was has been easy/successful?

"Mission Accomplished"

[Yonivore]

Palestinian election was a democratic election. Hamas.
And they elected terrorists...so, they're paying the consequences of their choice.

[clambake]

That's the US discription of their choice. Their discription of US is same.

[Yonivore]

That's the US discription of their choice. Their discription of US is same.
So, you're claiming Hamas isn't a terrorist organization?

[Yonivore]

Then, are you claiming Hamas didn't cross the Palestinian/Israel border and kidnap an Israeli soldier without provocation?

[Yonivore]

Then are you saying the same about Hezbullah?

[clambake]

I never said any of that. You should take some time off, or at least attempt to reboot your hard drive.

I know you can't help the way you feel about politics. Your a robot. I've never met a republican that wasn't staunch repub. I don't know if it's because their lazy or ignorant or both. For some reason, they have to be in 100%.

I've never met a staunch democrat, either. See the difference?

[turambar85]

I never said any of that. You should take some time off, or at least attempt to reboot your hard drive.

I know you can't help the way you feel about politics. Your a robot. I've never met a republican that wasn't staunch repub. I don't know if it's because their lazy or ignorant or both. For some reason, they have to be in 100%.

I've never met a staunch democrat, either. See the difference?


You have never met NBADan? Or does it have to be in person to count?

I agree 100% about X-ray, and most people like him, but comments like that, baseless, absurd comments, are easily debunked and make you appear to be no better than the people you are attacking.

[MannyIsGod]

ROFL manny... they would crush them even harder now IMO...

Just read that you thought they were lucky in 67...

The Arabs/Muslim nations havent had any new parts for their weapons for the most part in the 20 years since the fall of the soviet union.

They're pretty much screwed if Israel decides it wants a piece.No doubt about that. In 67, however, if the Arabs are led by more capable tacticians, Israel is gone.

Its all moot either way, Israel kicked the idiots ass and they've dominated ever since.

[clambake]

I don't claim to be better than other people! Just smarter!!!!! haha

[clambake]

And yes. I was meaning " in person".

[xrayzebra]

Okay. So what should the United States stance be on this. Support Israel?
Help Israel Militarily? Ignore everything and lay low? What would your strategy be?
And I don't mean bash Bush or the dimm-o-craps. What do you think the best
plan of action would be on our part.

Can we do this without the junk or will it just be same old bashing. Look at it
realistically.

[sickdsm]

Give up on Israel politically and financially. Terroists will back off American interests because of the no longer "brother-in-arms-status" with israel. World will be a better place, except for Israel.



But that's just me.

[Spurminator]

Okay. So what should the United States stance be on this. Support Israel?
Help Israel Militarily? Ignore everything and lay low? What would your strategy be?
And I don't mean bash Bush or the dimm-o-craps. What do you think the best
plan of action would be on our part.

Can we do this without the junk or will it just be same old bashing. Look at it
realistically.

I had hoped the U.S. would encourage a rational response to the hostage-taking. This is a disasterous overreaction. The "right of Isreal to defend itself" doesn't apply here.

[Yonivore]

I had hoped the U.S. would encourage a rational response to the hostage-taking. This is a disasterous overreaction. The "right of Isreal to defend itself" doesn't apply here.
What would have been rational?

[Yonivore]

Keeping in mind there was no Israeli presence in Gaza or the West Bank before the kidnappings, I agree with Victor Davis Hanson on this:


And after Oslo, and after all of these, as I said, sober and judicious diplomacies, the Palestinians and Hezbollah thought the Israelis were rational, they had this good life, they wouldn't want to give it up. They were willing to incrementally be attacked. They might have a little appeasement. Now, the Israelis have to say to Hezbollah, we are crazier than you are, and unlike you, we can inflict a lot more damage, and we really don't care what the world says, because we're not going to live like this in fear. Even if you don't take out a power plant, and even if you don't make life miserable, we just don't want to live where one or two Israelis gets killed every week by one of these crazy rockets. So we're crazier than you, and you're really going to pay this time.
They're fed up. Withdrew from the West Bank six years ago. Withdrew from Gaza this year. And, still, the crazy bastards keep killing Israelis. Enough is Enough.

[Spurminator]

What would have been rational?

Whatever civilized nations typically do when two soldiers are taken hostage. I'm not sure what's protocol for those situations, but I'm pretty sure it's somewhere below bombing the roads and airports of a neighbor country.

[Yonivore]

Whatever civilized nations typically do when two soldiers are taken hostage. I'm not sure what's protocol for those situations, but I'm pretty sure it's somewhere below bombing the roads and airports of a neighbor country.
I guess you forget they came from that "neighbor country," invaded Israel, and killed eight soldiers in order to kidnap those two. Oh, and without any apparent provocation by Israel. I'd classify that as an act of war.

Blockading Lebanon, bombing the aiports, and roads will keep Hezbullah from receiving aid from Syria -- their sugar daddy. It will also prevent them from fleeing to Syria with the kidnapped soldiers.

As an added bonus, the Iranian Revolutionary Guard appears to be trapped in Lebanon at the moment.

[Crookshanks]

I'm listening to Michael Medved and he is talking with a Professor from the University of Wisconsin. The professor is a Muslim and he is certifiable!

He sincerely believes that 9/11 was orchestrated by Karl Rove, that the bombings in Australia were done by CIA operatives and that Al-Queda is just a front for the CIA!

He calls our soldiers "Christian terrorists" who hype themselves up on christian heavy metal music before they go and slaughter innocents.

Hey NBAdan, is he a friend of yours?

This guy is a perfect example of why we cannot reason with Islamofacists - they are nuts!!!

[clambake]

We have to support Israel. They are surrounded by gov. and factions that would like to exterminate them. Is that something americans could live with? (skinheads aside). Israel has made consessions of late, and it has gotten them nowhere. Syria wants them to free the lebonese and palestinian prisoners (thousands) in exchange for 2. Hamas has 1 captive.

What Syria refuses to admit (in my opinion) is freed prisoners from Israel would just return with bombs strapped around their bellys.

Israel would be foolish to entertain the offer.

[Spurminator]

Who said anything about entertaining the offer?

I'm not against the use of force in this situation, but something on a lesser scale. I don't see this as an act of all-out war, particularly one that could have global ramifications.

I believe the U.S. can support Israel without condoning their every action/retalliation.

[clambake]

I didn't say "you said entertain the offer". Syria is trying make this appear to be a legitimate chip to throw down in the big game.

I'm guessing, however, that I would tire of suicide bombers at some point.

Is bush suppose to demand that Israel back off? I don't think so. He's really in a tough spot this time.

[velik_m]

LOL, you don't think the U.S could handle another war as easily as the war in Iraq. Are you implying that this was has been easy/successful?

"Mission Accomplished"

From a military point of view it was very successful. The losses on US side are low, certainly much lower than those on iraq side. A thousand dead soldiers for taking over a country with several million people is a well managed war.
Of course other aspects of takeover didn't go as well.

[velik_m]

We have to support Israel. They are surrounded by gov. and factions that would like to exterminate them. Is that something americans could live with? (skinheads aside). Israel has made consessions of late, and it has gotten them nowhere. Syria wants them to free the lebonese and palestinian prisoners (thousands) in exchange for 2. Hamas has 1 captive.

What Syria refuses to admit (in my opinion) is freed prisoners from Israel would just return with bombs strapped around their bellys.

Israel would be foolish to entertain the offer.

There's a reason why Israel is surrounded with enemys. North Korea doesn't have many friends either, does the US have to support them too?

[Spurminator]

Is bush suppose to demand that Israel back off? I don't think so. He's really in a tough spot this time.

I think we could have very reasonably voted along with (or abstained from) the UN resolution.

To be the only nation to vote against a resolution calling for a peaceful end to this dispute simply reinforces our reputation as Israel's bed buddy, fair or not.

[spurster]

Whatever civilized nations typically do when two soldiers are taken hostage. I'm not sure what's protocol for those situations, but I'm pretty sure it's somewhere below bombing the roads and airports of a neighbor country.
That requires all sides to be rational. Unfortunately, none of the sides are.

[Spurminator]

That requires all sides to be rational. Unfortunately, none of the sides are.

When that's the case, it might be more prudent for a rational nation not to take sides.

[clambake]

We are their buddy, like it or not. Thanks to bush, were running out of friends. Remember all the repug hate for france just because they refused to join us on our foolish adventure to Iraq. Well, france took alot of heat for their stance on Iraq. Man were they right. Much of the world was afraid to distance themselves from the US. Those days are over. When the security council votes against Israel, it's also a vote against us.

[Crookshanks]

Regarding Israel - the Bible says "I will bless them that bless you (Israel) and curse them that curse you."

America is on the right side!

[jochhejaam]

Not surprisingly the battle is escalating. Here are some excerpts from the article.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/14/D8IRVU8G0.html



Hezbollah's Sheik Hassan Nasrallah and his family were safe after the Israeli missiles demolished the two buildings in Beirut's crowded southern neighborhoods, the militant group said.

"You wanted an open war and we are ready for an open war," Nasrallah said, addressing Israelis in an audiotape played on Hezbollah's Al- Manar television. The speech apparently was prerecorded and did not refer to the missile attack.


Warplanes again smashed runways at Beirut's airport with hours of airstrikes, trying to render it unusable, and destroyed mountain bridges on the main highway to Syria. Warships blockaded Lebanon's ports for a second day.

In response, Lebanese guerrillas fired at least 50 Katyusha rockets throughout the day, hitting more than a dozen communities across northern Israel.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned Israel against extending its assault into Syria and said the Jewish state couldn't harm Iran, which also backs Hezbollah.

French President Jacques Chirac said Israel's actions were "totally disproportionate" but also condemned Hezbollah's attacks. He implicitly suggested that Syria and Iran might be playing a role in the crisis.

Israeli officials said the campaign by the air force was the biggest since the Israeli invasion in 1982. The only comparable military action since then was the "Grapes of Wrath" offensive in 1996, also sparked by Hezbollah attacks

The Israeli offensive was causing political waves in Lebanon, with some anti-Syrian politicians accusing Hezbollah of dragging the country into a costly confrontation with Israel.

[MannyIsGod]

When that's the case, it might be more prudent for a rational nation not to take sides.

[MannyIsGod]

Not surprisingly the battle is escalating. Here are some excerpts from the article.
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/07/14/D8IRVU8G0.html



Hezbollah's Sheik Hassan Nasrallah and his family were safe after the Israeli missiles demolished the two buildings in Beirut's crowded southern neighborhoods, the militant group said.

"You wanted an open war and we are ready for an open war," Nasrallah said, addressing Israelis in an audiotape played on Hezbollah's Al- Manar television. The speech apparently was prerecorded and did not refer to the missile attack.


Warplanes again smashed runways at Beirut's airport with hours of airstrikes, trying to render it unusable, and destroyed mountain bridges on the main highway to Syria. Warships blockaded Lebanon's ports for a second day.

In response, Lebanese guerrillas fired at least 50 Katyusha rockets throughout the day, hitting more than a dozen communities across northern Israel.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad warned Israel against extending its assault into Syria and said the Jewish state couldn't harm Iran, which also backs Hezbollah.

French President Jacques Chirac said Israel's actions were "totally disproportionate" but also condemned Hezbollah's attacks. He implicitly suggested that Syria and Iran might be playing a role in the crisis.

Israeli officials said the campaign by the air force was the biggest since the Israeli invasion in 1982. The only comparable military action since then was the "Grapes of Wrath" offensive in 1996, also sparked by Hezbollah attacks

The Israeli offensive was causing political waves in Lebanon, with some anti-Syrian politicians accusing Hezbollah of dragging the country into a costly confrontation with Israel.Did you expect them to capitulate?

[jochhejaam]

Quote:
Originally Posted by jochhejaam: Not surprisingly the battle is escalating. Here are some excerpts from the article.



Did you expect them to capitulate?


Is that a serious question?!?

[gtownspur]

Did you expect them to capitulate?

I guess if Israel suckered Hezbollah into kidnapping for the express reason of having a reason to start a confrontation, then you'd have a point that we should condemn israel.

But Manny, let me ask you a question.

What do you do if the people you are trying to negotioate with keep launching missiles after every concession you make, kidnap your soldiers and demand you release 100 palestinian terrorist for their release,...

Would you just go on with what's been fucking you all along, or do you say enough is enough?

[Yonivore]

I think we could have very reasonably voted along with (or abstained from) the UN resolution.

To be the only nation to vote against a resolution calling for a peaceful end to this dispute simply reinforces our reputation as Israel's bed buddy, fair or not.
Did you read the resolution?

Here's Ambassador Bolton's statement:


Mr. President, we are all aware of the delicate situation in the Middle East, where new and major developments are unfolding as we speak. In light of the fluid and volatile nature of events on the ground, the United States believes this draft Resolution is not only untimely, but already outmoded. We have just recently witnessed a major escalation by Hizballah. On top of that, we have the announcement that the Secretary-General will be sending a team to the region to help resolve the situation. These important new developments should be reflected in any text we consider.

Not withstanding these new developments, there were many other reasons to reject this draft. The draft Resolution before the Council was unbalanced. It placed demands on one side in the Middle East conflict but not the other. This draft Resolution would have exacerbated tensions in the region and would have undermined our vision of two democratic states, Israel and Palestine, living side-by-side in peace and security.

Passage would also have undermined the credibility of the Security Council, which itself must be seen by both sides as an honest broker in the Middle East conflict. In this regard, public statements of UN officials must also accurately reflect positions agreed by member governments.

The United States worked hard with other delegations to achieve a more balanced text, one which acknowledged that Israeli military actions were in direct response to repeated rocket attacks into Southern Israel from Gaza and the June 25 abduction of Israeli Defense Force Corporal Gilad Shalit by Hamas. Regrettably, we were not able to reach consensus.

While we remain gravely concerned about the deterioration of the situation in the West Bank and Gaza, we remain steadfast in our conviction that the best way to resolve the immediate crisis is for Hamas to secure the safe and unconditional release of Corporal Shalit.

Establishing the foundations for a lasting peace, however, will require us to focus our attention not just on Hamas, but on the state sponsors of terror who back them -- particularly Syria and Iran. Let us be clear that without the financial and material support of Damascus and Tehran, Hamas would be severely crippled in carrying out its terrorist operations. We call upon Syria and Iran to end their role as state sponsors of terror and unequivocally condemn the actions of Hamas, including this kidnapping. We yet again call upon Syria to arrest the Hamas ringleader, Khaled Meshal, who currently resides in Damascus. We stress again our condemnation of Syrian and Iranian support of Hizballah, which has claimed responsibility for the other kidnappings along the Blue Line between Israel and Lebanon.

We further call on the Palestinian Authority government to stop all acts of violence and terror and comply with the principles enunciated by the Quartet: renounce terror, recognize Israel, and accept previous obligations and agreements, including the Roadmap. The failure of the Palestinian Authority government to take these steps hurts the Palestinian people.

We are obviously concerned about the duration of the present difficulties and the lack of a solution, but the issue for us is whether action by this Council makes such a solution more or less likely, not simply whether or not the Council seems to be "engaged".

The United States remains firmly committed to working with others to establish the foundations for a lasting peace in the region -- a foundation that would have been undermined had this draft Resolution passed.
That's why we vetoed the resolution.

[Yonivore]

Did you expect them to capitulate?
There was a point when returning the kidnapped soldiers would have ended the violence.

I agree, that point has long since passed. I think Israel means to dislodge and wipe out Hamas and Hezbullah. I also think Iran and Syria intend to stand on the sidelines and let it happen.

[MannyIsGod]

I guess if Israel suckered Hezbollah into kidnapping for the express reason of having a reason to start a confrontation, then you'd have a point that we should condemn israel.

But Manny, let me ask you a question.

What do you do if the people you are trying to negotioate with keep launching missiles after every concession you make, kidnap your soldiers and demand you release 100 palestinian terrorist for their release,...

Would you just go on with what's been fucking you all along, or do you say enough is enough?I'm not suprised your lack of reading comprehension once agian shows its head. Thats the problem with talking about this situation with any of you. You're so focused in on what you consider a right/wrong situation that you can't for one second take a step back and look at the situation in a different light and maybe see that what all of the talking heads and pundits keep regurgitating is fucking retarded. You're so locked in on what you expect to read you don't bother to read what is actually being said.

No where have I condemed Israel for acting out against Hezbollah. They have a right to defend their citizens. But they're actions are fucking idiotic. If they want to rid themselves of the group, then attack the group do not attack the people of Lebanon. Is Hezbollah any weaker today after days and days of bombing? No. Are there people in Lebanon now who will be less sympathetic to the Israeli situation in the future? Fuck yes. There are also people that are pissed at Hezbollah, but for the most part those are the exact same people that were pissed off at them last week.

If Israel really wants to stop this problem, they'd go after Syria. But the fact is they're too scared of the consequences of an attack on Syria. So instead they take a half ass measure of attacking Lebanon.

They shut down the airport to stop the soldiers from being taken to Iran? Did they forget that the entire eastern border of Lebanon is open to Syria? Does anyone with half a brain really think that if Hezbollah wants to get those soldiers to Iran the bombing of a bridge on a highway or the airport is going to stop them? It is such a crock of shit it amazes me people even try to sell it.

And lets not act as though there is a state of peace in the region and these groups broke it with their acts. They all consider themselves to be in a constant state of war. And war involves acts like this. If Hezbollah wants to attack the Iraeli Army over a border dispute, thats not terrorism. Thats fucking war. I don't understand what you guys expect from people who are obviously pretty damn pissed off at the current situation. They're not going to roll over and give into Israels demands and no amount of rockets from a fucking helicopter is going to change that.

[Yonivore]

Is that a serious question?!?
In Mannyland, this was somehow started by Israel.

[xrayzebra]

I guess if Israel suckered Hezbollah into kidnapping for the express reason of having a reason to start a confrontation, then you'd have a point that we should condemn israel.

But Manny, let me ask you a question.

What do you do if the people you are trying to negotioate with keep launching missiles after every concession you make, kidnap your soldiers and demand you release 100 palestinian terrorist for their release,...

Would you just go on with what's been fucking you all along, or do you say enough is enough?

I have to agree with the above statement. What we should do I really
don't know. Maybe stay on the sideline and support Israel in the diplomatic
realm. Like the veto we exercised.

I heard someone say something that I too wondered about, in the news.
How come the security council could come up with a resolution in such
a short time on Israel, but cant on N. Korea or Iran after months and
months.

We, the world, is bordering on a conflict that will have major repercussions
for years to come. It could draw many players into something that they
now attempt to avoid. Israel, obviously, has had it up to their eyebrows.
The did make some major concessions with political consequences within
their own country. They left much in-fracture, homes and otherwise, for
the Palestinians. And they shoved Israel's face in the dirt. Would we
take that kind of action from someone sworn to destroy us?

[Yonivore]

But they're actions are fucking idiotic. If they want to rid themselves of the group, then attack the group do not attack the people of Lebanon.
The group is in Lebanon. And, by all objective accounts, Israel is doing just as you suggest; hitting strategic Hezbullah target and supply routes.


Is Hezbollah any weaker today after days and days of bombing? No.
Can you support that claim? No.


Are there people in Lebanon now who will be less sympathetic to the Israeli situation in the future? Fuck yes.
I suspect that the weinies that let Hezbullah run all over them will temper their anger when Hezbullah is gone and Israel withdraws.

Funny. This is kind of like Operation Lebanese Freedom! They're liberating the Lebanese from Hezbullah...and, by proxy, Syria and Iran.


There are also people that are pissed at Hezbollah, but for the most part those are the exact same people that were pissed off at them last week.
I hope they have adequate shelter.


If Israel really wants to stop this problem, they'd go after Syria. But the fact is they're too scared of the consequences of an attack on Syria. So instead they take a half ass measure of attacking Lebanon.
I don't think it's Israeli fear that is stopping them. Plus, you'd have the international idiot squad, who apparently can't connect dots (i.e. Iraq and al Qaeda), saying that Israel attacked Syria and Iran without provocation.


They shut down the airport to stop the soldiers from being taken to Iran? Did they forget that the entire eastern border of Lebanon is open to Syria? Does anyone with half a brain really think that if Hezbollah wants to get those soldiers to Iran the bombing of a bridge on a highway or the airport is going to stop them? It is such a crock of shit it amazes me people even try to sell it.
Well, if you'd been following Israel's statements you'd also have learned they were shutting down re-supply routes as well. It was part of a blockade.

And, yes, it might keep them from moving the kidnapped soldiers. It's a relatively short border. Infrared is pretty good at picking shit up in the middle of no man's land. We sell them a lot of neat technology.


And lets not act as though there is a state of peace in the region and these groups broke it with their acts. They all consider themselves to be in a constant state of war.
Oh yeah, that explains Israels complete withdrawal from the West Bank six years ago and their complete withdraw from Gaza this year. Damn, can't fool them Palestians or Hezbullahans (?) into thinking you really want peace, now can you?

You know Manny, Only Hamas and Hezbullah have said it is a constant state of war.


And war involves acts like this. If Hezbollah wants to attack the Iraeli Army over a border dispute, thats not terrorism.
What border dispute, Israel withdrew to the agreed border.


Thats fucking war. I don't understand what you guys expect from people who are obviously pretty damn pissed off at the current situation. They're not going to roll over and give into Israels demands and no amount of rockets from a fucking helicopter is going to change that.
What demands did the Israelis make? Oh yeah...leave us alone and quit trying to annihilate us. Yeah, that'd piss me off too.

I truly hope Israel obliterates them this time. It's obvious we're not going to stop them.

[MannyIsGod]

I said I wasn't going to respond to him, and I'm not, but sometimes it's so damn hard.

[Yonivore]

I heard someone say something that I too wondered about, in the news.

How come the security council could come up with a resolution in such
a short time on Israel, but cant on N. Korea or Iran after months and
months?
They have them pre-prepared in Microsoft Word. They just have to merge the appropriate variables and voila! Instant condemnation of Israel.

[Yonivore]

I said I wasn't going to respond to him, and I'm not, but sometimes it's so damn hard.
Now, now...it's only been a day. Do you have addiction issues?

[xrayzebra]

Now, now...it's only been a day. Do you have addiction issues?

Yoni, hate to say it, but think all of us, including you must have the
addiction issue when it comes to politics......
:lol

[Yonivore]

Yoni, hate to say it, but think all of us, including you must have the
addiction issue when it comes to politics......
:lol
No, with the exception of Nbadan, who has some entertainment value, I've left those on ignore that I put on ignore.

If Manny doesn't want to respond to my posts, all he has to do is use the ignore feature.

[scott]

The group is in Lebanon.

You are suggesting Lebanon = Hezbollah? Want to check your facts before I correct you?

[Yonivore]

You are suggesting Lebanon = Hezbollah? Want to check your facts before I correct you?
No, I wasn't suggesting that.

I was stating the fact that Hezbullah is entrenched in Lebanon...including their government. So, if you're going to have a war with Hezbullah, you're going to have to either wait for them to come to you or go to Lebanon.

[MannyIsGod]

You are suggesting Lebanon = Hezbollah? Want to check your facts before I correct you?He misses the idea that attacking strategic assests in Lebanon hurts the Labanese but not Hezbollah.

[Yonivore]

He misses the idea that attacking strategic assests in Lebanon hurts the Labanese but not Hezbollah.
Okay, since he's not talking to me...ask him how striking strategic Hezbullah targets in Lebanon doesn't hurt them?

[Yonivore]

Oh, and tell Manny that Lebanon may actually be in favor of using the Israeli offensive to help them take control of the South Lebanon.

The Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/13/AR2006071301743.html) reports that the Israeli attacks on Hezbollah positions in Lebanon have caused the Lebanese government to consider efforts to disarm Hezbollah and gain control over the southern part of the country, currently dominated by the Iranian-supported terrorist group:


[I]n the wake of Syria's withdrawal of its troops from Lebanon in 2005, the disarmament of Hezbollah has emerged as one of the foremost issues in Lebanese politics. Since the fighting with Israel started Wednesday, calls for Hezbollah to relinquish its weapons have gathered urgency. The violence began when Hezbollah fighters captured two Israeli soldiers in a cross-border incursion, followed by an Israeli attack on roads, bridges, power stations and airports.

Lebanese critics as well as allies of Hezbollah insist that the Israeli response was disproportionate. But at the same time, in meetings Thursday, Lebanese officials began to lay the groundwork for an extension of government control to southern Lebanon.
According to most experts, the democratically elected Lebanese government lacks the firepower to take on the much better armed Hezbollah forces. However, if the Israelis can do enough damage to Hezobollah, the terrorist group might be sufficiently weakened to enable the government to disarm it and take control of the Lebanese-Israeli border in the aftermath of an Israeli attack. Although the anti-Hezbollah Lebanese probably have little love for the Israelis, the Christians and moderate Muslims who control the government are unlikely to use the border as a staging ground for rocket attacks into Israel, as Hezbollah has been doing. Indeed, many Lebanese factions, particularly various Christian and Druze groups, have cooperated with the Israelis in the past when it was in their interest to do so.

Hopefully, this scenario, or something like it is the Israeli objective. The worst outcome would be for the Israelis to stop after inflicting only minor damage on Hezbollah. This would subject Israel to international condemnation and increase Hezbollah's prestige for "standing up" to Israel, while producing few benefits for either Israelis or Lebanese. Obviously, a full-fledged campaign to crush Hezbollah would lead to greater casualties in the short run than a more "proportionate" retaliation. But it is likely to save numerous lives in the long run on both sides of the border. It could also help the Lebanese to consolidate their still-fragile democracy by eliminating the most serious domestic threat to it.

[cherylsteele]

Are we witnessing or have already witnessed the begining of WW3?

[Yonivore]

Are we witnessing or have already witnessed the begining of WW3?
Just another front in World War IV.

[Yonivore]

http://www.daybydaycartoon.com/cartoons/071506.jpg

[gtownspur]

I said I wasn't going to respond to him, and I'm not, but sometimes it's so damn hard.


Are you talking to yourself?

Are you going nuts? :lol

[Yonivore]

Are you talking to yourself?

Are you going nuts? :lol
Going?

[gtownspur]

I don't know what it is. In light of all the reports coming in defense of the airstrikes to the Beirut airport, and other attacks on Lebanon, Manny is still stuck on his first post, that Israel is fucking up by bombing Lebanon.

And even articles like the Washington post shed new light into this and Manny will still maintain that he's right on this, and that Israel should go back to dealing with Hezbollah and Hamas like it did earlier, what fuckin good did it do.

And if you were to task manny on what a better solution would be, he'd suggest to give into all their demands. Then you'd only have to point out that What the palestinian people want is to drive jews into the sea, and he'll go back and give you some fuckin history lesson and dodge the whole issue.

well his fuckin conclusion is pretty simple, LEt the World stop helping out Israel, and sit and watch Jews get annhilated. But he wont say that right out. He'll come out with Red herrings to deflect from the issue that is at hand. And that is it's always the Palestinians who break the peace, and screw this peace process, and Israel cannot go back to the OSlo accords way of fucking the Mid East up.

Sometimes in life, not everything is black and white, and manny is right on this certain thing. But what he completely ignores is the fact that every resource has been exhausted to deal with the Palestinian problem and we here in america, and israel are fed up. Isreal has to put it's foot down.

Now the expected response from Manny will be of how "Right wingers only see the world through right and wrong, and we should try diplomacy...blah blah blah"

Too bad the fucktard keeps forgetting after every one of his nonsense post that what he's suggested has been done and failed.

In the end, he brings nothing new to the table.

[E20]

I don't know what it is. In light of all the reports coming in defense of the airstrikes to the Beirut airport, and other attacks on Lebanon, Manny is still stuck on his first post, that Israel is fucking up by bombing Lebanon.

And even articles like the Washington post shed new light into this and Manny will still maintain that he's right on this, and that Israel should go back to dealing with Hezbollah and Hamas like it did earlier, what fuckin good did it do.

And if you were to task manny on what a better solution would be, he'd suggest to give into all their demands. Then you'd only have to point out that What the palestinian people want is to drive jews into the sea, and he'll go back and give you some fuckin history lesson and dodge the whole issue.

well his fuckin conclusion is pretty simple, LEt the World stop helping out Israel, and sit and watch Jews get annhilated. But he wont say that right out. He'll come out with Red herrings to deflect from the issue that is at hand. And that is it's always the Palestinians who break the peace, and screw this peace process, and Israel cannot go back to the OSlo accords way of fucking the Mid East up.

Sometimes in life, not everything is black and white, and manny is right on this certain thing. But what he completely ignores is the fact that every resource has been exhausted to deal with the Palestinian problem and we here in america, and israel are fed up. Isreal has to put it's foot down.

Now the expected response from Manny will be of how "Right wingers only see the world through right and wrong, and we should try diplomacy...blah blah blah"

Too bad the fucktard keeps forgetting after every one of his nonsense post that what he's suggested has been done and failed.

In the end, he brings nothing new to the table.
Gtownspur always gives me a good laugh. Har Har Har

[gtownspur]

Gtownspur always gives me a good laugh. Har Har Har


Feeling like a little man aren't you?

I guess if you are speachless and can't respond with anything you can always go back to the "that was funny" bullshit.

The fact is you puny shit, is that what i've stated hit's a little to close to home to you. It must drive you mad that you must always be in denial to support your way of thought.

Let's stop fucking around and admit it. The whole fucking world knows the palestinians aren't capable of taking care of a pet rock much with out pulverizing it if it had a little scent of zionism in it. How the fuck can they be trusted to respect a goddamn treaty?

[Yonivore]

Well, we may find out if Syria has all of Saddam's weapons after all.

Syria made its official entry into the war (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/14/AR2006071401481.html) breaking out between Israel and Hezbollah, pledging to come to the aid of Hezbollah and Lebanon if necessary to ensure Israel's defeat. However, the statement did not come from Bashar Assad, the ostensible leader of Syria, but from a meeting of the Ba'athist party's power brokers:


Syria will support Hizbollah and Lebanon against Israel's attacks on the country, the ruling Baath Party said on Friday, defying the Jewish state and its chief ally Washington.

"The Syrian people are ready to extend full support to the Lebanese people and their heroic resistance to remain steadfast and confront the barbaric Israeli aggression and its crimes," said a communiqu¿ from the party's national command issued after a meeting.

It said Israel and the United States "are trying to wipe out Arab resistance in every land under occupation" and that President Bashar al-Assad was aware of the seriousness of the situation in the region.

The national command is the highest echelon of the Baath Party, which has been in power since 1963. The party considers the issue of Arab rights and regaining land occupied by Israel central to its legitimacy.

Assad, who is shaped by his late father's lifetime of struggle with Israel, was not at the meeting.
The Ba'ath Party left the head of state out of the loop while it crafted this statement? One has to wonder what task so occupied Assad that the war breaking out on his border got shifted to a lower priority.

In the meantime, Reuters reports that Syria feels that this crisis will make it a player in Middle East politics again. The world has its attention fixed on Syria and Iran, thanks to its connections to Hezbollah. Syria might find all of the attention flattering now, but if it decides to intervene on behalf of their Hezbollah proxies, the attention they receive will be a whole lot more explosive. IAF jets buzzed Assad's house earlier; next time, they'll leave a 500-lb calling card.

By that time, however, it may not matter. This news makes it appear that Assad may have gotten shut out of the decision-making process. The Ba'ath Party may not trust Assad in a shooting war -- and that may indicate that Baby Assad never did have his hands on the levers of power.

[boutons_]

Read the article I posted "Kidnapping of Democracy" (not that Syria is one), but the idea is the same. Violent minorities, even in M/E democracies manage to exort all the control and string-pulling as if they were majorities. Moderates go against them? They get killed.

It's confusing. Wasn't Saddam's Baathist party Sunni?

Syria, Iran, and Hizbollah Shi'ite?

The Syrian Baathists, Sunnis?, are commtting to support the Shiite Hizbollah?

Whatever, the M/E is fucked up more than ever, and dubya/dickhead's huge, crazy gamble, with US military lives, in Iraq has been lost.

[E20]

Read the article I posted "Kidnapping of Democracy" (not that Syria is one), but the idea is the same. Violent minorities, even in M/E democracies manage to exort all the control and string-pulling as if they were majorities. Moderates go against them? They get killed.

It's confusing. Wasn't Saddam's Baathist party Sunni?

Syria, Iran, and Hizbollah Shi'ite?

The Syrian Baathists, Sunnis?, are commtting to support the Shiite Hizbollah?

Whatever, the M/E is fucked up more than ever, and dubya/dickhead's huge, crazy gamble, with US military lives, in Iraq has been lost.
IMO and I think a lot of people think the sameway is that everything in the ME is politically driven. It's not about Shia's or Sunni's it's all about politics, land and power.

[E20]

IMO and I think a lot of people think the sameway is that everything in the ME is politically driven. It's not about Shia's or Sunni's or religious possesions it's all about politics, land and power.

[AFE7FATMAN]

Isn't History fun, if we could only learn from it.

On Sept. 30, 1985 four minor Soviet officials were kidnapped in Beirut and on Oct. 2 one was murdered. It was unclear who the kidnappers were or where the hostages had been taken.

The Soviet Union officially stated that it would hold not just the terroists responsible but also all those who could have stopped the criminal action but did not do everything possible to this effect.

Soviet official statements also emphasized that this was an evil deed for which there can be no forgiveness Within days, Syrian, Druze, Palestinian and Shiite militias began combing Beirut and Sidon, rounding up dozens of people for searches and interrogations.

The Syrian chief of military intelligence arrived in Beirut to master mind the operation personally.

The Iranian government sent three officials to help. On Oct. 30--exacctly one month after the kidnapping--the kidnappers had been identified and the hostages located and released.

Meanwhile, elsewhere in Beirut, the American CIA station chief, William Buckley, was being tortured to death while the National Security Council sold arms to the Iranians." :oops (The WSJ Aug 10th 1989 page A-14 "Make Hostages Lives the Second Goal")

Todays War caused by the kidnapping of the soldiers was a test of the new PM of Israel and I fear that the Hezbollah and their Big Brother in Iran have gotten in deeper than they thought.

I hope the summitt will put this war back to the stalemate it was. For this
to happen Bush& Co better agree to have Russia join the WTO.

[velik_m]

I heard someone say something that I too wondered about, in the news. How come the security council could come up with a resolution in such a short time on Israel, but cant on N. Korea or Iran after months and
months.

North Korea and Iran are not bombing their neighbouring countries.

Israel is overreacting. This is the same kind of overkill nazis used in ww2 to fight what they called "bandits" (i suspect they would be terrorists in today's lingo) and we called Liberation Front. As long as collateral damage wasn't germans anything goes.

[Nbadan]

Reports this morning from London are that Israel may escalate the current conflict and bomb Syria...


The London-based Arabic language newspaper Al-Hayat reported Saturday that “Washington has information according to which Israel gave Damascus 72 hours to stop Hizbullah’s activity along the Lebanon-Israel border and bring about the release the two kidnapped IDF soldiers or it would launch an offensive with disastrous consequences.”

The report said “a senior Pentagon source warned that should the Arab world and international community fail in the efforts to convince
Syria to pressure Hizbullah into releasing the soldiers and halt the current escalation Israel may attack targets in the country.”

Al-Hayat quoted the source as saying that “the US cannot rule out the possibility of an Israeli strike in Syria,” this despite the fact that the Bush administration has asked Israel to “refrain from any military activity that may result in civilian casualties.”

YNET NEWS (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3275886,00.html)


Not sure about the reliability of this source, but the demands on Syria seem to fall in line with what Israeli PM Olmert said earlier today (http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200607/s1687322.htm) would end the conflict.

[Nbadan]

Iran warns Israel not to attack Syria (Reuters)


TEHRAN, July 13 (Reuters) - Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Thursday an Israeli strike on Syria would be considered an attack on the whole Islamic world that would bring a "fierce response", state television reported.

"If the Zionist regime commits another stupid move and attacks Syria, this will be considered like attacking the whole Islamic world and this regime will receive a very fierce response," Ahmadinejad was quoted as saying in a telephone conversation with Syrian President Bashar al-Assad.

The president made the comments after Israel struck Beirut airport and military airbases and blockaded Lebanese ports in reprisals that have killed 55 civilians in Lebanon since Hizbollah guerrillas captured two Israeli soldiers a day earlier.

Alertnet (http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L13460060.htm)


Yesterday, Hezbollah launched an Iranian-made ballistic missle at the Israeli city of Haifa. It was probably operated by Iranians. The war is on.

[Nbadan]

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/5/5d/FAJR_MRLS.jpg
Hezbollah may have many of these mobile launchers along Israel's border


In early 2001 it was reported that Hezbollah had set up a belt of mobile Multiple rocket launchers and truck-mounted missiles along Israel’s northern flank ready to go off the moment Israel launched a large-scale military offensive against Lebanon. The Japanese-made Isuzu truck launchers carry Fajr-3 (Arabic for dawn-3) projectiles, a third generation of Katyusha rockets with a 60-kilometer range manufactured by Iran's air force industry.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fajr-3)

[Nbadan]

Don't look to the Democratic Party for any sanity in this conflict...


The House Democratic leadership strongly condemns the seizure of Israeli soldiers by Hezbollah terrorists operating from Lebanon... Countries with influence over Hezbollah, particularly Syria and Iran, must move quickly to bring about the return of the soldiers and the end of rocket attacks on Israeli civilians from Hezbollah positions in Lebanon. The Palestinian Authority, and countries with influence over Hamas, must take similar action in Gaza.

"Those who finance, direct, or otherwise support acts like these need to understand that they have produced an extremely dangerous situation and that they are responsible for the consequences. Israel has an inherent right to defend itself, and the United States supports our ally."

Rush Limpballs? Nope. House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi (CA) and House Democratic Whip Steny Hoyer (MD)(7/12/06):

[jochhejaam]

Israel is overreacting. This is the same kind of overkill nazis used in ww2 to fight what they called "bandits" (i suspect they would be terrorists in today's lingo) and we called Liberation Front.
Overracting?!? That's laughable velik. I assume it's safe to say that your not a Jew living in Israel.
What does Iran, hezbulla, Hamas the PLO and many Muslim terrorists have in common with Nazi Germany? The elimination or extermination of Israel and/or the Jewish race.
Once again the Jews are facing rogue Nations and groups of terrorists whose agenda is to wipe them off the face of the earth and you say they're overracting?
The main difference in their goal is one of Muslim supremacy instead of Aryan supremacy.

They're not overracting, they're fighting for the very survival of their Nation!

[jochhejaam]

Don't look to the Democratic Party for any sanity in this conflict...

Rush Limpballs? Nope. House Democratic Leader Nancy Pelosi (CA) and House Democratic Whip Steny Hoyer (MD)(7/12/06):
Looks as if you and those that want to wipe out Israel are the only sane people left on Planet Earth dan.

[jochhejaam]

Just in is a report that 100 Iranian troops helped hezbullah launch the attack on the Israeli warship.

Live news broadcast, no link yet.

[Nbadan]

Yes, its sooooo easy to just bundle everyone who criticizes Israel foreign policy into one nice hate-filled package. Get real.

[Nbadan]

Just in is a report that 100 Iranian troops helped hezbullah launch the attack on the Israeli warship.

Live news broadcast, no link yet.

I've already said this.

[Nbadan]

Yesterday, Hezbollah launched an Iranian-made ballistic missle at the Israeli city of Haifa. It was probably operated by Iranians. The war is on.

[velik_m]

Overracting?!? That's laughable velik. I assume it's safe to say that your not a Jew living in Israel.
What does Iran, hezbulla, Hamas the PLO and many Muslim terrorists have in common with Nazi Germany? The elimination or extermination of Israel and/or the Jewish race.
Once again the Jews are facing rogue Nations and groups of terrorists whose agenda is to wipe them off the face of the earth and you say they're overracting?
The main difference in their goal is one of Muslim supremacy instead of Aryan supremacy.

They're not overracting, they're fighting for the very survival of their Nation!

yeah, they are just securing their "lebensraum". Their existance is endangered by barbaric masses that souround them and their elimination is the only solution. And all they have is state of the art army and nukes to defend themselfs.

you don't think it's overreaction to start a full scale war over one kidnapped soldier?

[Nbadan]

Here's the call


Missile, not drone, hit Israeli warship 24 minutes ago

JERUSALEM - A missile fired by Hezbollah, not an unmanned drone laden with explosives, damaged an Israeli warship off Lebanon, the army said Saturday.

The attack late Friday alarmed Israel because initial information indicated the guerrillas had used a drone for the first time to attack Israeli forces.

But the army's investigation showed that Hezbollah had fired an Iranian-made missile at the vessel from the shores of Lebanon, said Brig. Gen. Ido Nehushtan.

"We can confirm that it was hit by an Iranian-made missile launched by Hezbollah. We see this as very profound fingerprint of Iranian involvement in Hezbollah," Nehushtan said in an interview with The Associated Press.

yahoo (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060715/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_attacked_ship)

Not sure where Joch is getting the 100 Iranian troops story from? FAUX NEWS??

[jochhejaam]

I've already said this.
Well, it was breaking news to me because I took a break from the forum to get some sleep. :lol

sorry dan

[Nbadan]

Well, it was breaking news to me because I took a break from the forum to get some sleep. :lol

sorry dan

It doesn't take much sophistication to fire either a Fajr-3 or a Fajr-5 missile. The missile that supposedly has struck two Israeli cities now.

[jochhejaam]

you don't think it's overreaction to start a full scale war over one kidnapped soldier?

You don't really think that what's going on in the Middle East is because of that single incident, do you?

(saying no will keep you out of the certifiable category)

[Nbadan]

Your right, it is about more than about one incident


"Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don’t know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate. The next day, something happened, which we do know about, a lot. Militants in Gaza, probably Islamic Jihad, abducted an Israeli soldier across the border. That’s Corporal Gilad Shalit. And that's well known; first abduction is not. Then followed the escalation of Israeli attacks on Gaza, which I don’t have to repeat. It’s reported on adequately."

So basically by not reporting about the Gaza abductions but about the kidnapped IDF soldiers, the media is saying this: Israel has the "Right to defend herself" but the Palestinians DO NOT.

Democracy Now (http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/14/146258)

[jochhejaam]

Not sure where Joch is getting the 100 Iranian troops story from? FAUX NEWS??


Not Faux nNews dan, I don't do CNN. It was reported on Fox.

The missle that hit the warship is reported to have been a CAO2 chinese made, laser-guided missle with 300 lbs of explosives.

[Nbadan]

Israeli troops amassing along the Lebanese border...


BEHIND a protective canopy of trees an Israeli 155mm artillery battery fills the valley with gunsmoke and decibels, blasting 100lb shells northwards toward invisible targets across the Lebanon border.

A few miles away, another unit huddles beneath foliage, guarding hundreds of 4.5m (15ft) Texan-manufactured Haz rockets being readied to blow something or someone into pieces.

Artillery, rockets, tanks and Humvees are massing on Lebanon’s southern border as Israel reveals the true extent of its ambitions. It is determined not merely to punish Hezbollah, but to destroy it once and for all as a military threat.

Times Online (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2270916,00.html)

Looks like we could have ourselves a ground war.

[jochhejaam]

Your right, it is about more than about one incident




Quote:
"Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother.

Oh, okay, 2 incidents. And of course you do have information that the Israeli abductions were without previous provacation, yes? (I'm betting no)

[Nbadan]

...and your saying foreign state abductions without any due process are OK? What if France considered you a possible threat and kidnapped you? What if the US just let it happen?

[Gerryatrics]

Here's the call



yahoo (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060715/ap_on_re_mi_ea/israel_attacked_ship)

Not sure where Joch is getting the 100 Iranian troops story from? FAUX NEWS??

Maybe he got it from... the link you just posted. Have you ever read an entire news article? Or do you just glance over the heavily edited versions you scurry over here to post?


The intelligence official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitive nature of the information, said about 100 Iranian soldiers are in Lebanon and helped fire the Iranian-made, radar-guided C-102 at the ship late Friday.

[Gerryatrics]

...and your saying foreign state abductions without any due process are OK? What if France considered you a possible threat and kidnapped you? What if the US just let it happen?

The Gaza Strip isn't a "foreign state". It's not a State at all.

[Nbadan]

Maybe he got it from... the link you just posted. Have you ever read an entire news article? Or do you just glance over the heavily edited versions you scurry over here to post?

So the primary source is an Israeli intelligence official. No bias there.

[Nbadan]

The Gaza Strip isn't a "foreign state". It's not a State at all.

Only because Israel refuses to recognize it. Which is a whole 'nother discussion.

[Gerryatrics]

So the primary source is an Israeli intelligence official. No bias there.

You're the one that sourced the article. I guess you'd better stick with articles from the Democratic Underground so you don't have to deal with any of those pesky 'facts' that torture you so.

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=Nbadan]...and your saying foreign state abductions without any due process are OK?
Desperate times call for desperate measures dan.
Once again people expect Israel to abide by the International protocol for eagaging the enemy while breaking those rules of engagement is second nature to their enemies.



What if France considered you a possible threat and kidnapped you? What if the US just let it happen?

If France were in the same situation as Israel and the U.S. were a terrorist regime that desired their annihilation, I would put the blame for the kidnapping point blank at the feet of the US.

[velik_m]

You don't really think that what's going on in the Middle East is because of that single incident, do you?

(saying no will keep you out of the certifiable category)

ofcourse it's not. but escalating the incident at such pace is not a path towards peace.

[Nbadan]

You're the one that sourced the article. I guess you'd better stick with articles from the Democratic Underground so you don't have to deal with any of those pesky 'facts' that torture you so.

I didn't know that DU had gone into the publishing business? or is every news article that appears in DU automatically assumed to be compromised? Only in Gerryatric world.

Of course there are Iranians in Lebanon. Americans too. Maybe it was the U.S. that fired that missile?

[jochhejaam]

ofcourse it's not. but escalating the incident at such pace is not a path towards peace.

velik, you would have a good point if it weren't for the fact that the goal of Israel's enemies is their annihilation, not peace.

[Nbadan]

Desperate times call for desperate measures dan.
Once again people expect Israel to abide by the International protocol for eagaging the enemy while breaking those rules of engagement is second nature to their enemies.

Israel has every right to protect it citizens, but it should have done so with the aid of the Lebanese government and its elected PM, instead of bombing his offices.

[Gerryatrics]

ofcourse it's not. but escalating the incident at such pace is not a path towards peace.

So what is the path of Peace? Israel has been fighting for it's survival since it's (modern) inception. They've offered almost everything except packing up and abandoning Israel entirely. The Palestinians wont settle for anything short of the entire annihilation of Israel and the Jews. If public statements from Palestinian leaders to that effect haven't been enough to convince you, maybe the election of Hamas clued you in. Suicide Bomber attacks, rocket attacks and other terrorist attacks have continued even after Israel withdrew from the "Occupied Territories". What is it exactly Israel is supposed to do that will magically lead to Peace?

[Gerryatrics]

I didn't know that DU had gone into the publishing business? or is every news article that appears in DU automatically assumed to be compromised? Only in Gerryatric world.

Of course there are Iranians in Lebanon. Americans too. Maybe it was the U.S. that fired that missile?

DU doesn't have original content? Funny, a two second search of the front page got me this


As Israel rains death and ruin upon the helpless Lebanese over two kidnapped soldiers, as Bush's doppleganger in North Korea - a similarly deranged narcissist - shoots wannabe nukes into the Sea of Japan, as Japan itself considers military action in retaliation, as Baghdad rages and riots, as American soldiers continue to be demoralized, depleted, and as we have seen lately, dehumanized; as Mexicans protest in defense of democracy in ways we Americans are much too complacent to dare emulate... as we watch in a mix of despair and surreal disbelief, with only slight punctuations of relief provided by Colbert, Olbermann, or Stewart. And as we all wonder how much more can go wrong, and will go wrong...

Only in Nbadan World... is reading comprehension eschewed to such a degree.

[smeagol]

It's pretty clear Israel's neighbors don't want peace.

[jochhejaam]

Israel has every right to protect it citizens, but it should have done so with the aid of the Lebanese government and its elected PM, instead of bombing his offices.
That would be as successful as the U.S. asking Hugo Chavez to send troops to help us with the battle in Iraq.

[velik_m]

So what is the path of Peace? Israel has been fighting for it's survival since it's (modern) inception. They've offered almost everything except packing up and abandoning Israel entirely. The Palestinians wont settle for anything short of the entire annihilation of Israel and the Jews. If public statements from Palestinian leaders to that effect haven't been enough to convince you, maybe the election of Hamas clued you in. Suicide Bomber attacks, rocket attacks and other terrorist attacks have continued even after Israel withdrew from the "Occupied Territories". What is it exactly Israel is supposed to do that will magically lead to Peace?

Israel is using the same pattern and tactics it used forever. Have the militants and extremists grew weaker? No, in fact, as election of Hamas proved, they've got stronger.

A road to peace? How about "suck it up". If a buch of nuts blow themself up and kill israelis, you don't need to strike back with air-to-ground missiles on a crowded street. There are other more subtle methods you can use.
Besides if you move your entire army over such little incidents, you just show them that this is extremly important to you, that it hurt you. You are showing weakness and inviting them to do it again.

[smeagol]

Israel is using the same pattern and tactics it used forever. Have the militants and extremists grew weaker? No, in fact, as election of Hamas proved, they've got stronger.

A road to peace? How about "suck it up". If a buch of nuts blow themself up and kill israelis, you don't need to strike back with air-to-ground missiles on a crowded street. There are other more subtle methods you can use.
Besides if you move your entire army over such little incidents, you just show them that this is extremly important to you, that it hurt you. You are showing weakness and inviting them to do it again.
How about the Palestinians/Syrians/Iranians/etc. stop the nuts from blowing up themselves and killing innocent Isrealis. They would have much more credibility if Israel retaliates after one of these incidents.

[velik_m]

How about the Palestinians/Syrians/Iranians/etc. stop the nuts from blowing up themselves and killing innocent Isrealis. They would have much more credibility if Israel retaliates after one of these incidents.

Israel does retaliate. And it was Israelis that started terrorism and killing in ME in the first place.

[Yonivore]

How could the peace process fail and the whole area be on the brink without the diplomatic example of the U.S.?

47 people killed, countless injured and property destroyed, including civilian infrastructure and a naval blockage all for the kidnapping of two IAF troops? Sounds rational.
You say that as if the Hezbullah didn't invade Israel, attack a military vehicle, kill 8 soldiers, and, only then, did they retreat to Lebanon with two hostages.

What would any other sovereign nation do under those circumstances?

Israel demanded the return of the soldiers. And, except for ridiculous demands for the exchange of a buttload of terrorists for the soldiers (extortion), Hezbullah refused.

So, you go get them and you destroy the ability of those who perpetrated the act to ever do it again.

[Yonivore]

Israel does retaliate. And it was Israelis that started terrorism and killing in ME in the first place.
Really? I'd like to her that version of history.

[Yonivore]

The Jerusalem Post (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150886004498&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull) reports on the Hezbollah attack on an Israeli ship, in which four sailors were killed. The most significant point is that the attack was carried out using a missile made in Iran, not a drone as first reported. And the IDF says the missile was fired by Iranians:


An IDF investigation into the attack showed that Hizbullah had fired an Iranian-made missile at the vessel from the shores of Lebanon, said Brig. Gen. Ido Nehushtan.

A senior IDF intelligence official says that Iran has approximately 100 soldiers in Lebanon and that they helped Hizbullah hit an Israel Navy ship with an anti-ship missile.
And, in a move that is bound to garner them Cairo's sympathies, Hezbollah also apparently sank an Egyptian merchant ship.

Robert Satloff's analysis (http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/012/442luknw.asp) in the new issue of the Weekly Standard anticipates the direct Iranian involvement in the conflict:


Virtually overnight, an audacious Hamas raid has metastasized into a crisis that holds the greatest potential for regional conflagration in years. On a strategic level, the rogues' goal is almost surely to fuse the disparate crises into one--merging either the Hamas or Hezbollah front with Iran's nuclear standoff with the West, perhaps by the transfer of the captive soldiers to Iranian control, by direct involvement of Iranian Revolutionary Guards in the rocket fire against Israel, or by some other means.

If that happens, then Hamas and its fellow quartet members may achieve what Yasser Arafat was not able to accomplish with two intifadas--to regionalize the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and thereby radically alter the strategic balance. And if Iran is able to exploit this crisis to show that its nuclear program earns it and its allies special treatment on the terrorism front, Tehran will have proven precisely how beneficial the decision to invest in a nuclear program really was. As the Iranian newspaper Kayhan, close to Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei, editorialized last Thursday, "Nuclear Iran is eradicating the nuclear prestige of Israel." That's the sort of rising star to which Syria would like to be hitched.

In Gaza and Lebanon, a battle between Israel and two of its enemies has now been joined. Its spread to two other enemies--Iran and Syria--is a stark and urgent possibility. Let us not mistake this conflict for a local skirmish, a pesky diversion from more serious business, like stopping Iran's nuclear program or building a free, stable Iraq. On the contrary, it is all of a piece.

Defeat for Israel--either on the battlefield or via coerced compromises to achieve flawed cease-fires--is a defeat for U.S. interests; it will inspire radicals of every stripe, release Iran and Syria to spread more mayhem inside Iraq, and make more likely our own eventual confrontation with this emboldened alliance of extremists. Victory--in the form of Hezbollah's disarmament, the expulsion of the Iranian military presence from Lebanon, the eviction of Meshal and friends from Damascus, and the demise of the Hamas government in Gaza--is, by the same token, also a victory for U.S. (and Western) interests.
On a related note, YNET News reports (http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3275886,00.html) that Israel has given Syria a 72-hour ultimatum.

[Yonivore]

"Gaza, itself, the latest phase, began on June 24. It was when Israel abducted two Gaza civilians, a doctor and his brother. We don't know their names. You don’t know the names of victims. They were taken to Israel, presumably, and nobody knows their fate."
So, Dan, did ol' Noam say from where this information came or, at least, provide some corroboration?

I don't remember Hamas claiming this when Corporal Shalit was kidnapped.

[velik_m]

Really? I'd like to her that version of history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29

Neither Jewish morality nor Jewish tradition can negate the use of terror as a means of battle.
...
We are quite far from moral hesitations on the national battlefield. We see before us the command of the Torah, the most moral teaching in the world: Obliterate - until destruction. We are particularly far from this sort of hesitation in regard to an enemy whose moral perversion is admitted by all.
But primarily terror is part of our political battle under present conditions and its role is large and great.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_refugees

[Yonivore]

Irgun and Lehi are pre-Israel groups for which there was Jewish condemnation, as well.

How about a terrorist act committed by the State of Israel. Got one of those?

[scott]

How about a terrorist act committed by the State of Israel. Got one of those?

The continued terrorizing of the Palestinian people by bulldozing their homes and shooting rockets into their neighborhoods from helicopters generally qualifies as terrorism to me. Just because the state of Israel has been equiped with a modern military by western allies doesn't make them any less of terrorists as horrid groups like Hezbollah and Hamas.

The losers in this "war" are the Israeli and Palestinian citizens who manage to live together peacefully if not for the instance of their governments to kill each other.

[scott]

Speculation is that the Arab Elements and Hezbollah were going to smuggle the Israeli captives to grain silos in Lebanon. Good thing Israel blew them up.

:spin

[clubalien]

why didn't lebanon or syrian planes shoot down the jewish planes before they were able to bomb the airport?

[MannyIsGod]

Yes, its sooooo easy to just bundle everyone who criticizes Israel foreign policy into one nice hate-filled package. Get real.Dude, its the first card he likes to play on the subject. EVERY time.

[MannyIsGod]

Speculation is that the Arab Elements and Hezbollah were going to smuggle the Israeli captives to grain silos in Lebanon. Good thing Israel blew them up.

:spinThose were strategic Hezbollah assests bombed to the joy of the Lebanese.

[clambake]

Israel is fed up, done. Hard to lay blame entirely in their lap. They have called up ALL of their reserves. I doubt they would do that if their intentions were not resolute.

[Yonivore]

The continued terrorizing of the Palestinian people by bulldozing their homes and shooting rockets into their neighborhoods from helicopters generally qualifies as terrorism to me.
So, Hamas doesn't base their rocket attacks from those neighborhoods?


Just because the state of Israel has been equiped with a modern military by western allies doesn't make them any less of terrorists as horrid groups like Hezbollah and Hamas.
Hezbollah and Hamas intentionally target civilians.


The losers in this "war" are the Israeli and Palestinian citizens who manage to live together peacefully if not for the instance of their governments to kill each other.
So, scott. How many Israelis live peacefully in Palestine? Then again, you're right about the obverse. Palestinians do live peacefully in Israel. They even serve on the Knesset.

[scott]

So, Hamas doesn't base their rocket attacks from those neighborhoods?


Hezbollah and Hamas intentionally target civilians.

Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist organisations that need to be disarmed and or disabled. But so is the government of Israel. The two are not mutually exclusive.



So, scott. How many Israelis live peacefully in Palestine?

Most Palestinian terrorist attacks happen in the populated cities, not Israel's illegal settlments. There are your peacefully living Israeli's in Palestine.


Then again, you're right about the obverse. Palestinians do live peacefully in Israel. They even serve on the Knesset.

Most Palestinians and Israeli citizens are peaceful people and happily live and work with one another. They are the victims of irrational governments.

[gtownspur]

^^Holy stupid logic there.

You disarm Hezbollah and Hamas, you stop violence from those groups.

You disarm israel, you stop israel from existing.

[scott]

^^Holy stupid logic there.

You disarm Hezbollah and Hamas, you stop violence from those groups.

You disarm israel, you stop israel from existing.

.

[scott]

^^Holy stupid logic there.

You disarm Hezbollah and Hamas, you stop violence from those groups.

You disarm israel, you stop israel from existing.

You don't disarm Israel, and their own form of Manifest Destiny begins to spiral out of control. That probably suits your personal desires - but I believe in the right of the people in the region to... you know... live.

[gtownspur]

I give you credit for not saying "dick" in a post...

I would have given you credit for not being a "dick" in return.

Sorry if i offended you. I actually respect you.

But your logic in this thread is idiotic.

If you disarm israel, you contribute to it's extinction.

and by your same logic, FDR was a terrorist, as well as Truman, and the allies for not waging war on open battlefeilds with 0 poplulations.

I guess if you were a general you'd demand your enemy fight out in the open, or else you'd would sit there while their bullets pluck your men since you have such high priniciples.

[gtownspur]

You don't disarm Israel, and their own form of Manifest Destiny begins to spiral out of control. That probably suits your personal desires - but I believe in the right of the people in the region to... you know... live.


So this is about brown vs white to you i guess, seeing how israel just wants to live in peace, and if not attacked would go on with their lives.

I just want you to understand that it's the Palestinian people who want this war. They are the agressors.


And who the hell said i was a zionist?

[DarkReign]

Of course, lets assume for one glorious moment that all the 'ifs' in my previous post were true statements (ahhhh....sweet, sweet Theory-world!)

Of course they will attack Israel. At least, most likely attack Israel.

Then the USs' hand will be forced, directly stating to the world exactly how far reaching our treaty with Israel is. Is it economic only, with only major military contributions? Or is it what everyone thinks, a Mutual Protection Policy.

If its a MPP, then we have to strike back. And lets all be honest and non-partisan for one brief moment, please....Does our President seem like the hesitant type?

Israel strikes back, almost immediately. From that point on, its anyones guess. My guess, you ask? Without being detailed (because details only get in the way)...

Iran strikes Israel (for whatever reason). Israel, also a nuclear power, strikes right back.....only its a total overkill. Im talking wasteland. Islamic world is outraged by the excessiveness, and joins in the fun.

Now, 80% of the worlds crude oil is under the control of countries in total meltdown. Vested interests of all the world's relevant players are completely inaccesible. Obviously, this creates a problem the likes of which the world has never seen.

Long standing alliances are tested. Everyone pulls whatever trump card they have been holding to discern friend from foe. The Players: Russia+China vs USA+Britain.

Thats Doomsday by my calculations.

BUT....

If the Big Players were smart (and didnt hate each other for the very act of breathing), they would sit it out. Literally, the moment someone goes nuclear, make a phone call to China and Russia.

Its time to rest control of the world's Black Blood from these radical neanderthals. Make a deal. We sell out Israel, if you sell out your allies. let them completely kill each other (literally) while we 4 Kings hang back and play politics so as they keep fighting to the death. Make any amount of excuses needed to stall your involvement. Tell them, "We got your back, we're coming" but never show. By the time they realize that no one is coming, it'll be too late. They are way too commited, absorbed so much loss, they have to continue.

Then, whomever wins (using the word 'wins' very, very loosely here), the 4 Kings show up as mop up duty. Explain to the world that its obvious these people are threats to humanity, and that their inability to control themselves by which nuclear holocaust is inevitable, they must be disarmed, disassembled and dismissed.

4 Kings setup whatever government/state/province/etc they want. One that is only populated by the militaries of each country (no civilians, or at least a limited number) as to keep the world's oil from sabotage.

Bang. Case closed. No more Middle Eastern power plays. They would have no power. They would have nothing. After the nuclear winter in the area, it will be completely uninhabitable (for something like 500 years or beyond) and under control of the only governments that actually matter. All card-carrying UN, veto-holding, nuclear powers of the world...united over their lust for oil.

Ahhhh....TheoryWorld. Its beautiful, yet such complete bullshit.

I dont seem to be too far off so far. Just waiting for Iran to get directly involved. Yet, its still bullshit.

[Nbadan]

http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/01015296-c-802.jpg
C-802 (China)


Iran has denied involvement and their embassy in Beirut has released a statement saying: "These accusations by Israeli officials are baseless and constitute an attempt to escape reality and cover up the impotence of this regime in the face of resistance and the Lebanese people."

English Al Jazeera (http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/FCBD9700-D204-44AA-9719-6B2AB11C26C4.htm)

[gtownspur]

Jebus Crikes! Some of you people are totally retarded.


I want to see some solutions from all you witty Chamberlains out there.

C'mon, enlighten me.

Let me give you an example;

You have palestinian terrorist blowing up school children in Israel, Your the Israeli Prime Minister, what do you do to retaliate?

a) Call out all the terrarist and tell them to meet you after school next to the monkey bars so that there will be no civillian casualties.

b) Fire smart bombs at Gaza and program them to seek only terrorist.(Rofl)

c) Don't retaliate, take the morale high ground like Manny and follow his advice and admit you're a terrorist. Oh yeah. And play with your tits like manny.

d) take the fight to the terrorist on their own turf.

[DarkReign]

e) wait for escalation, then make phone calls to relevant parties, strike deal, execute shadow plan.

[gtownspur]

But the question was what "would you do if you were the Israeli Prime Minister?"

[Yonivore]

Hezbollah and Hamas are terrorist organisations that need to be disarmed and or disabled. But so is the government of Israel. The two are not mutually exclusive.
Nice non-answer. Back to the question; if Hamas and Hezbollah initiate their rocket attacks from neighborhoods in Gaza and Southern Lebanon, where should Israel direct their response?

If the terrorists are going to hide among innocents, should Israel just let them be? Further, when's the last time there was a military strategic target in a Tel Aviv market or club? And, I'm sure there are command and control assets on the commuter buses of Israel.

Plus, given the current situation, if Israel were a terrorist organization why haven't they just annihilated whole populations? Surely you believe they have the capability -- and, currently, you claim they are killing indiscriminately in Lebanon and Gaza. Seems to me, if that were the case, Palestinian and Lebanese deaths would be in the thousands, not just over a hundred.


Most Palestinian terrorist attacks happen in the populated cities, not Israel's illegal settlments. There are your peacefully living Israeli's in Palestine.
Please, the settlements are one of the (illegitimate) reason why the terrorists claim they strike. But, seriously, how long would an Israeli last in Gaza? Could they serve on the Palestinian Authority?


Most Palestinians and Israeli citizens are peaceful people and happily live and work with one another. They are the victims of irrational governments.
I agree to an extent. The peaceful coexistence only occurs on one side of the border. The side of the rational government.

Seriously, there must be something in your life -- ancestral, familial, or something -- that makes you so irrational on this subject. You sound like Manny.

[scott]

I would have given you credit for not being a "dick" in return.

Sorry if i offended you. I actually respect you.

But your logic in this thread is idiotic.

If you disarm israel, you contribute to it's extinction.

and by your same logic, FDR was a terrorist, as well as Truman, and the allies for not waging war on open battlefeilds with 0 poplulations.

I guess if you were a general you'd demand your enemy fight out in the open, or else you'd would sit there while their bullets pluck your men since you have such high priniciples.

The United States of America was attacked by the nation of Japan, who was in with the Axis Power. The nation of Israel was not attacked by the nation of Lebanon. The two are not parallel.

[scott]

So this is about brown vs white to you i guess, seeing how israel just wants to live in peace, and if not attacked would go on with their lives.

I just want you to understand that it's the Palestinian people who want this war. They are the agressors.


And who the hell said i was a zionist?

The people of Israel very much want to "live in peace" and it is an absolute travesty that they are constantly being put in harms way by the terrorist organizations Hamas and Hezbollah and then their own government.

Hezbollah is a Syrian terrorist organization. Hezbollah is not the Palestinian people. And it goes just beyond saying "the Arabs are the agressors" - there is a long history between these two countries and both are at fault for the current situation. Pointing at this entire situation and saying "it's all Hezbollah's fault because they kidnapped 2 Israeli soldiers" is a simplistic beyond the border of stupid view of things.

Who called you a Zionist? Are you a member of the Israeli government?

[scott]

Nice non-answer. Back to the question; if Hamas and Hezbollah initiate their rocket attacks from neighborhoods in Gaza and Southern Lebanon, where should Israel direct their response?

I wouldn't lay waste to a bunch of innocent citizens in Beirut, for starters, since Beirut is pretty far away from the conflict zone where the rocket attacks were initiated. It may be collateral damage to you - but they are human lives to me. Innocents die in war, and sometimes war is justified. Every single Israeli or Lebanese citizen who has been killed over the last 5 days, or 5 decades for that matter, has died because of the irrationality of their own governments.

My complaint is not Israel's objective to nuetralize the terrorist organization Hezbollah, it is the manner in which they are doing so.

If a Canadian militia faction fired rockets into Mexico from somewhere along the Texas-Mexico border, would Mexico be justified in bombing San Antonio? (Hint: the answer starts with "no")


If the terrorists are going to hide among innocents, should Israel just let them be?

There seems to be an aweful disporportionate number of Lebanese innocents being killed relative to Hezbollah members. Maybe Israel should kill every single person in Lebanon, because approximately (reported) 100 Hezbollah members are in Lebanon.

Funny how you criticized someone for their simple "black and white" perspective on things the other day, because here it is again. There is not a binary set of decisions here that read "let them be" or "bomb Beirut".


Further, when's the last time there was a military strategic target in a Tel Aviv market or club? And, I'm sure there are command and control assets on the commuter buses of Israel.

And what, exactly, does that have to do with the current topic? The terrorists who attack these places crowded with innocents are evil and need to be dealt with, there is no question about it. For someone who likes the phrase "don't be stuck on stupid" so much, you sure do fill that bill when it comes to defending your weak and transparent positions on such topics.


Plus, given the current situation, if Israel were a terrorist organization why haven't they just annihilated whole populations? Surely you believe they have the capability -- and, currently, you claim they are killing indiscriminately in Lebanon and Gaza. Seems to me, if that were the case, Palestinian and Lebanese deaths would be in the thousands, not just over a hundred.

The goal of terrorism is not to rack up your body count - it is to put your adversaries in a constant state of terror. Israeli rockets sure do mistakenly hit the "wrong" target a lot - sounds like indiscriminant killing to me. Do you think Palestinians don't live in fear of Israeli tanks marching in and "mistakingly" killing them to?



Please, the settlements are one of the (illegitimate) reason why the terrorists claim they strike. But, seriously, how long would an Israeli last in Gaza? Could they serve on the Palestinian Authority?

Whether or not the terrorists claim them as a reason for striking is irrelevant. The fact that there truely exists a Zionist element in Israel. How'd you like it if Mexico came in and bulldozed your home so a couple of wealthy Mexicans could come retake the land that was formely theirs?



I agree to an extent. The peaceful coexistence only occurs on one side of the border. The side of the rational government.

Rational government? Never heard of one. You claim Israel is a rational government, but you also claim George W. Bush is a good president, so your credibility on such subjects is in question.


Seriously, there must be something in your life -- ancestral, familial, or something -- that makes you so irrational on this subject. You sound like Manny.

Of course there must be, because anyone who doesn't share your opinion obviously must have some sort of mental defect. You still sound like you, and that isn't a compliment.

[Yonivore]

I wouldn't lay waste to a bunch of innocent citizens in Beirut, for starters, since Beirut is pretty far away from the conflict zone where the rocket attacks were initiated. It may be collateral damage to you - but they are human lives to me. Innocents die in war, and sometimes war is justified. Every single Israeli or Lebanese citizen who has been killed over the last 5 days, or 5 decades for that matter, has died because of the irrationality of their own governments.

My complaint is not Israel's objective to nuetralize the terrorist organization Hezbollah, it is the manner in which they are doing so.

If a Canadian militia faction fired rockets into Mexico from somewhere along the Texas-Mexico border, would Mexico be justified in bombing San Antonio? (Hint: the answer starts with "no")
If Washington was supplying (or allowing Canada to supply) the Canadians with the rockets through an airport in San Antonio, I think I'd be more than justified in bombing San Antonio. I'd also bomb all the roads between San Antonio and Washington and the train stations, bridges, communications facilities, etc...


There seems to be an aweful disporportionate number of Lebanese innocents being killed relative to Hezbollah members. Maybe Israel should kill every single person in Lebanon, because approximately (reported) 100 Hezbollah members are in Lebanon.

Funny how you criticized someone for their simple "black and white" perspective on things the other day, because here it is again. There is not a binary set of decisions here that read "let them be" or "bomb Beirut".
First, where do you get your figures? Just how many Hezbollah have been killed? I believe the 100 figure relates to the number of Iranian Republican Guard members that are supposedly in Lebanon. You don't honestly believe there are only 100 Hezbollah there, do you?

And, second, considering the amount of ordinance dropped on Lebanon, I'd say 150 killed is small, however tragic. Third, aren't there still rockets flying out of Southern Lebanon into Israel? Finally, why aren't the innocent Lebanese fleeing to safer quarters? After all, most of Northern Israel civilians (with the exception of the major cities) has gone underground or left the area.

That would explain why there are more Lebanese than Israelis affected. They're apparently smart enough to get out of the way. And, maybe the innocent women, men, and children killed were associated with someone not so innocent?


And what, exactly, does that have to do with the current topic? The terrorists who attack these places crowded with innocents are evil and need to be dealt with, there is no question about it. For someone who likes the phrase "don't be stuck on stupid" so much, you sure do fill that bill when it comes to defending your weak and transparent positions on such topics.
Seems to me Israel is dealing with them...since no one else will. Hell, the Lebanese and Palestinians vote them into office.


The goal of terrorism is not to rack up your body count - it is to put your adversaries in a constant state of terror. Israeli rockets sure do mistakenly hit the "wrong" target a lot - sounds like indiscriminant killing to me. Do you think Palestinians don't live in fear of Israeli tanks marching in and "mistakingly" killing them to?
That's the Palestinian claim. Israel disagrees. Tell me this, scott. Considering how Palestinians are wont to launch strikes from civilian neighborhoods, I'm more inclined to believe Israel was hitting a legitimate military target.

How many times have Palestinians held their "military" accountable for mistreating Israeli soldiers or civilians? Obversely, there are Israeli soldiers sitting in Israeli prisons for murdering and abusing Palestinians.

And, as far as Palestinians living in fear? What about summary executions for cooperating with Israel and why the fuck did they elect terrorists to represent them? Talk about stuck on stupid.


Whether or not the terrorists claim them as a reason for striking is irrelevant. The fact that there truely exists a Zionist element in Israel. How'd you like it if Mexico came in and bulldozed your home so a couple of wealthy Mexicans could come retake the land that was formely theirs?
Weren't these activities ceased in Gaza and the West Bank? Haven't the settlers been removed -- by force -- from most of these disputed areas by the Israeli government? So, the Palestinians get what they want and still they fire rockets and kill civilians and kidnap soldiers?


Rational government? Never heard of one. You claim Israel is a rational government, but you also claim George W. Bush is a good president, so your credibility on such subjects is in question.
More rational than the Palestinian Authority and whoever's in charge of the Hezbollah. And, yes, President Bush is a good President.


Of course there must be, because anyone who doesn't share your opinion obviously must have some sort of mental defect. You still sound like you, and that isn't a compliment.
You're defending the terrorists more than much of the Arab nations at this point. How rational is that?

Hezbollah committed an act of war. Israel is responding -- after giving them a chance to return the kidnapped soldiers. I've seen nothing that indicates they are indiscriminately killing Lebanese. There is a good collection of Lebanese and Israeli blogs here (http://truthlaidbear.com/mideastcrisis.php). There are some that agree with you but, there are some that agree with me. Many of the Lebanese, probably most, blame Hezbollah -- even those who are clearly anti-Israel (who also believe Israel has overreacted). Even some Lebanese hope Israel will rid them of Hezbollah so that their impotent government might, with UN help, take back their country.

Browse the blogs for awhile. You'll see there are some Lebanese that don't exactly see it your way. I find that encouraging.

[Yonivore]

http://www.bigpharaoh.com/2006/07/15/i-can-see-pigs-flying/

I Can See Pigs Flying
Topics: Uncategorized


Someone hit me right now to wake me up. I think I'm day dreaming. I can see pigs flying. The conference of Arab foreign ministers in Cairo are not, as usual, arguing over Israel, they're discussing the legitimacy of Hezbollah. Saudi Arabia is leading the camp of ministers criticizing Hezbollah.


"These acts will pull the whole region back to years ago, and we cannot simply accept them," Saudi al-Faisal told his counterparts.

Supporting his stance were representatives of Egypt, Jordan, Kuwait, Iraq, the Palestinian Authority, the United Arab Emirates and Bahrain, delegates said on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the talks.
The Palestinian Authority is taking a wise decision here. I think the guy representing the PA at the Arab League is a Fatah and not Hamas member.

Syria foreign minister is seething.


Syrian Foreign Minister Walid Moallem lashed back al-Faisal, asking "How can we come here to discuss the burning situation in Lebanon while others are making statements criticizing the resistance?"

Moallem emerged as the leader of another camp of ministers defending Hezbollah as carrying out "legitimate acts in line with international resolutions and the UN charter, as acts of resistance," delegates said.
So is Lebanon's foreign minister, a shia who is close to Hezbollah.


Salloukh, a Shiite close to the mainstream Amal faction as well as the militant Hezbollah, said Arab governments were not doing enough to protest Israel's assault on Lebanon.

"What our Arab brothers have called 'involvement' has only resulted in frustration and bitterness among Arab people," Salloukh told participants at the meeting Saturday.

"If [Arab] governments are not serious and determined… our people will sooner or later take things into their own hands," he said.
Isn't it refreshing to see the Arabs finally discussing something useful instead of the "Israel is bad, Israel is bad" chorus.

Nasrallah, I can sense trouble coming your way.
Speaking of cause and effect. I believe the changing Arab sentiment is directly related to our actions in Iraq.

[velik_m]

Deadly Hezbollah attack on Haifa
Rockets fired by Hezbollah militants in Lebanon have killed at least eight people and wounded many others in the coastal Israeli city of Haifa.

Meanwhile, Israeli jets have hit targets in the south of the Lebanese capital Beirut, including Hezbollah's al-Manar TV and a power station.

The fifth day of violence came as the UN Security Council failed to agree on a statement calling for a ceasefire.

The Israeli air raids began after Hezbollah seized two Israeli soldiers.

It is the second time Haifa has been hit by Hezbollah rockets in recent days and the worst attack on Israel since hostilities with Lebanon broke out.

In a first salvo at least 13 rockets were reported to have landed in the city, including one which hit a train station.

According to Israel Radio a second wave of four rockets then hit, one landing in city street. People driving on the roads in Haifa reportedly abandoned their cars as they fled from the onslaught.

The BBC's Bethany Bell in Jerusalem says that until now it had been thought that towns like Haifa, which is some 30km (19 miles) south of the Lebanese border and, Tiberias, on the Sea of Galilee, which was attacked on Saturday, had been out of range of Hezbollah's rockets.

The militant group has claimed responsibility for the attack, saying it was retaliation for the death of at least 80 Lebanese civilians and destruction of the country's infrastructure during the Israeli air raids.

The BBC's Ian Pannell in Beirut says that there have already been a number of Israeli air strikes against Lebanese targets on Sunday.

In the southern suburbs of Beirut, Hezbollah's al-Manar TV was attacked along with a major power station.

Our correspondent says that the fire engines sent to put out the burning power station ran out of water and there was an appeal on Lebanese TV for local people to go and assist.

There was also a raid in the eastern city of Baalbek, where local Hezbollah leaders were believed to have gathered.

Foreign nationals have been leaving Lebanon to escape the violence. Our correspondent says that at first they were joined by a small number of locals who opted to stay with relatives in areas that were not being targeted or cross the border into Syria.

As the violence has escalated the number of locals attempting to flee has grown, but with the Israelis targeting the border areas and nearby roads, this has become increasingly difficult.

On Saturday, Lebanon's Prime Minister Fouad Siniora made an emotional appeal for a UN-supervised ceasefire to end the Israeli raids.

Lebanese diplomats blamed the US for blocking the ceasefire move.

The current president of the UN Security Council, French ambassador Jean-Marc de La Sabliere, said there would be "no agreement tonight" on a truce statement following a closed-door session late on Saturday.

Lebanese representative Nouhad Mahmoud said he was "very disappointed" and that this would "send a very wrong signal not only to the Lebanese people, but to Arab people".

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/2/hi/middle_east/5184428.stm

[sabar]

Well this is going to be one lopsided conflict. Modern air and ground troops against 1940-1950s soviet technology. This won't take long to win the initial fight.


Earlier, Israel's chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, told Israel's Channel 10, "If the soldiers are not returned, we will turn Lebanon's clock back 20 years."

CNN

People need to realize that there will be war. You cannot solve every issue diplomatically. Look at the initial abduction. What do you do? You can do nothing and essentially say that it's ok, you can get some worthless UN resolutions, or you can attack.

Is the size of the attack justified? That's debatable. Isreal is clearly fed up and prepared to wipe the radical terrorist/political organizations off the face of the earth in response.

You can't just back down all the time. There is no such thing as a world with no war.

[Gerryatrics]

I wouldn't lay waste to a bunch of innocent citizens in Beirut, for starters, since Beirut is pretty far away from the conflict zone where the rocket attacks were initiated.

Hezbollah's headquarters were in South Beirut, until they were destroyed by an Israeli air strike.


There seems to be an aweful disporportionate number of Lebanese innocents being killed relative to Hezbollah members. Maybe Israel should kill every single person in Lebanon, because approximately (reported) 100 Hezbollah members are in Lebanon.

Hezbollah has an estimated 1,000 active members of it's military wing in Lebanon, not 100. There's no way to know how many Hezbollah members have been killed yet, I doubt Lebanese hospitals are going to put out press releases a couple of hours after air strikes breaking down the organizational affiliation of all the victims. Besides, most of the numbers of casualties in Lebanon are coming from Al-Manar, Hezbollah's television network.

[sabar]

Casualties

Israeli: Ten Israeli soldiers were killed, two abducted and five more wounded. 14 civilians have been killed, Nine in the Haifa region on 16 July, and another 500 civilians were injured, 56 seriously. The INS Hanit was fired upon and heavily damaged. The Israeli newspaper Jerusalem Post reports three IDF Sailors missing, one confirmed dead.

Lebanese: Three Hezbollah members have been killed as well as three soldiers in the Lebanese army. So far over 100 Lebanese civilians have been killed and another 203 have been wounded as of July 14.

WIKIPEDIA - Reports from Israeli/Lebanese gov't

Hezbollah's numbers are unknown, likely in the thousands. If history is any indication, expect up to and over 50% of the casualties inflicted to be on civilian targets, on both sides.

[boutons_]

Hizbollah/Hamas makes a violent act (kills Isaeli soldiers on Isreali territory, takes military prisoners as hostages), then Isreal responds with diplomacy and talking. The Israelis know that is simply not an option.

Isreal knows that diplomacy will be seen by Hizbollah/Hamas as weakness that will encourge Hizbollah/Hamas.

Isreal knows the only way to counter Hizbollah/Hamas violence is with more violence, overhwelming violence, death, and destruction, the only actions that Hizbollah/Hamas understands.

The Lebanese PM admitted recently that his governement is not responsible for what Hizbollah does, which in effect admits that Hisbollah is running its own state in south Lebanon, just as violent minority Hamas is controlling "democratic" Gaza.

I expect Isreal to strike infrastructure in Syria next to the Lebanese border or wherever Syrian infrastructure could help move men and materiel into Lebanon, which would bring Syria and perhaps Iran into the war, instead of their well-known but unofficial support for Hizbollah.

There is absolutely no reason for any optimism in this situation, even BEFORE 9 Israelis were killed in Haifa by Hizbollah rockets.

btw, this Israel/Hizbollah/Hamas war is just another nail in the coffin of the Repub fiasco in Iraq. With Shiite Syria and Shiite Iran soon openly involved in Lebanon, Shiites in Iraq will be emboldened against Iraqi Sunnis in the on-going Iraq civil war.

You can be damn sure the dubya/dickhead/Repugs couldn't have dreamed up a better way to increase oil co wind-fall profits than a Israeli/Lebanese war in parallel with the Repug disaster in Iraq. Sell your 10 MPG vehicules, and buy oilco stocks.

============

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/16/weekinreview/16bronner.html?pagewanted=print

Israeli intelligence officials say they have evidence that the Hezbollah attack was partly ordered by Iran and its ally Syria to take attention away from international pressure on Iran over its nuclear program. If so, it would surprise no one to see Israel flex its muscles in their direction. But so far the contrary has been true. Israel has insisted that it holds the Lebanese government, rather than Iran and Syria, responsible for Hezbollah.

....

Uri Dromi, a former government spokesman who is now at the Israel Democracy Institute, said lessons were indeed learned, but he added that what is happening in Lebanon cannot be separated from what is happening in Iraq — the “regional superstory,” in his words. He said that Hassan Nasrallah, head of Hezbollah, a Shiite movement — like the dominant force in Iraq today — is trying to impress Arabs everywhere by working with the Palestinians against Israel.

The conflict already has had some effect in Iraq. On Friday, the firebrand Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr (http://topics.nytimes.com/top/reference/timestopics/people/s/moktada_al_sadr/index.html?inline=nyt-per) said in Baghdad that Iraqis would not “sit by with folded hands” while Israel strikes at Lebanon, signaling a possible increase in attacks from his militia on Americans in Iraq.

Mr. Nasrallah, the Hezbollah leader, said Friday that Israel’s leaders were playing with fire. “For the people of the Zionist entity in this hour, I tell them,” he said in a statement, “you will find out how much your new leadership and new government are stupid and do not know how to evaluate the issues and have no experience at this level.”

==================

Another aspect of the Lebanon mess is that the democratically elected Lebanese government, supposedly a huge victory for the US's no-WMD-so-let's-push-democracy policy, is Sunni led while the south Lebanon is Syrian/Iranian Shiite Hizbollah. The Sunni Lebanese govt has been, and is, intimidated into inaction by Shiite Hizbollah.

[scott]

If Washington was supplying (or allowing Canada to supply) the Canadians with the rockets through an airport in San Antonio, I think I'd be more than justified in bombing San Antonio. I'd also bomb all the roads between San Antonio and Washington and the train stations, bridges, communications facilities, etc...

The Lebanese government is in shambles, partly because they are still recovering from years of strife in that region. The Lebanese PM is highly anti-Syrian, and by proxy very anti-Hezbollah. But he admittedly no control over southern Lebanon. That is a problem. You hold the opinion that laying waste to an entire nation because of its problemic elements is an okay response to the kidnapping of two Israeli soldiers. I find that response disporportionate and rather appauling. But at least now I know where you stand on the bombing of San Antonio, though.



First, where do you get your figures? Just how many Hezbollah have been killed? I believe the 100 figure relates to the number of Iranian Republican Guard members that are supposedly in Lebanon. You don't honestly believe there are only 100 Hezbollah there, do you?

100 was supposed to be 1000 - pardon the typo. We don't know how many Hezbollah have been killed, but we have an approximation of how many Lebanese civilians have been killed - which outnumbers the number of Israeli civilians killed.


And, second, considering the amount of ordinance dropped on Lebanon, I'd say 150 killed is small, however tragic. Third, aren't there still rockets flying out of Southern Lebanon into Israel? Finally, why aren't the innocent Lebanese fleeing to safer quarters? After all, most of Northern Israel civilians (with the exception of the major cities) has gone underground or left the area.

Yes, there are rockets flying out of Southern Lebanon into Israel. Maybe Israel should focus their attacks there, instead of downtown Beirut.

Why aren't Lebanese fleeing? A lot of them have. A lot of them are like the people who got stuck in New Orleans after Katrina - no way to leave (and there weren't a bunch of busses sitting around to evacute the Lebanese either). And then at least 15 of them were killed by Israeli rocket fire for trying to leave.


That would explain why there are more Lebanese than Israelis affected. They're apparently smart enough to get out of the way. And, maybe the innocent women, men, and children killed were associated with someone not so innocent?

It is awefully easy for you to write of the death of other people as "being associatied with someone not so innocent" especially considering you have no evidence to support such a claim. But it fits nicely with your "Israel did it, so it must be right" attitude.



Seems to me Israel is dealing with them...since no one else will. Hell, the Lebanese and Palestinians vote them into office.

We are talking about the Lebanese people, not terrorist organizations in the region. Those terrorist organizations need to be dealt with, but not in the cavalier fashion Israel seems to enjoy employing.



That's the Palestinian claim. Israel disagrees. Tell me this, scott. Considering how Palestinians are wont to launch strikes from civilian neighborhoods, I'm more inclined to believe Israel was hitting a legitimate military target.

Of course you are inclined to believe that Israel can do no wrong. Many of Israel's military actions are justified - I'm not here to discuss those. I'm discussing Israel's attack on the country of Lebanon (which has repeatedly requested a cease fire to no avail).


How many times have Palestinians held their "military" accountable for mistreating Israeli soldiers or civilians? Obversely, there are Israeli soldiers sitting in Israeli prisons for murdering and abusing Palestinians.

The Palestinian government is a corrupt terrorist organization. What's your point? There are also prisoners of other governments (terrorist organizations) sitting in Israeli prison. I wouldn't condone their actions should they chose to attack Israel for those reasons either.



And, as far as Palestinians living in fear? What about summary executions for cooperating with Israel and why the fuck did they elect terrorists to represent them? Talk about stuck on stupid.

Yes, Palestinians are terrorized by their own "government" as well - I've never denied this. Talk about stuck on stupid, yes you are - you still fail to see beyond the Yonivore black and white world. This is not a world of binary mutually exclusive decision sets. Put your idiocy aside for a second and realize that this issue is more complex than you like to think it is.



Weren't these activities ceased in Gaza and the West Bank? Haven't the settlers been removed -- by force -- from most of these disputed areas by the Israeli government? So, the Palestinians get what they want and still they fire rockets and kill civilians and kidnap soldiers?

Again, so you can get it this time, the Palestinian government is a terrorist organization. They are not rational. They do not want peace, they want to rule what is now the State of Israel.

The fact that Israel is forced to deal with such evil elements does not give them carte blance approval to do whatever they want.



More rational than the Palestinian Authority and whoever's in charge of the Hezbollah. And, yes, President Bush is a good President.

"More rational" is not the same thing as rational. I agree Israel is more rational. That doesn't make them rational.



You're defending the terrorists more than much of the Arab nations at this point. How rational is that?

Wow, you managed to stop short of telling me I hate America. You must not have read your Hannity Talking Points email this morning.

I'm not defending terrorists, I'm defending the right of the nation of Lebanon to not come under attack. Get a grip.


Hezbollah committed an act of war. Israel is responding -- after giving them a chance to return the kidnapped soldiers. I've seen nothing that indicates they are indiscriminately killing Lebanese. There is a good collection of Lebanese and Israeli blogs here (http://truthlaidbear.com/mideastcrisis.php). There are some that agree with you but, there are some that agree with me. Many of the Lebanese, probably most, blame Hezbollah -- even those who are clearly anti-Israel (who also believe Israel has overreacted). Even some Lebanese hope Israel will rid them of Hezbollah so that their impotent government might, with UN help, take back their country.

Browse the blogs for awhile. You'll see there are some Lebanese that don't exactly see it your way. I find that encouraging.

Since you obviously fail to understand what my position is, I don't see how you can see that any of these blogs agree with me.

Hezbollah *is* responsible for the current violence. Israel *is* overreacting. Lebanon *needs* to be rid of Hezbollah influence. Israel *is* using the current situation as an excuse to carry out further reaching goals. You see, all these things are capable of being true simultaneously.

[Yonivore]

Since you obviously fail to understand what my position is, I don't see how you can see that any of these blogs agree with me.
I do understand your positions, I just disagree. And, thanks (sincere) for making the four points of your argument below.


Hezbollah *is* responsible for the current violence.
Agreed, if you throw in Hamas.


Israel *is* overreacting.
Disagree, for all the reasons I've stated.


Lebanon *needs* to be rid of Hezbollah influence.
Agreed and, further, they seem incapable of doing so quickly enough to stop them from terrorizing Israel. I believe your characterizing Israel's response of "overreacting" fails to recognize that 1) Hamas has continually terrorized Israel, from Gaza, without ceasing and 2) Hezbollah has been preparing for this for a long time by storing weapons and making plans in South Lebanon.


Israel *is* using the current situation as an excuse to carry out further reaching goals.
Absolutely. But, I don't believe it is to either destroy or occupy Lebanon but, rather, to rid the nation of Hezbollah so the Lebanese can try and form a government that will live in peace next to Israel. And, this is the point over which there is some agreement in the Arab world and, yes, even among some Lebanese. And, that is a spectacular change from the standard pro forma condemnations that normally come from all quarters of the Arab world.

Maybe, just maybe, everyone (with the exception of Syria and Iran) are fed up with organizations such as Hezbollah and Hamas continuing to pull the scab off the Israeli/Middle East conflict.


You see, all these things are capable of being true simultaneously.
They're also capable of being true but not for the reasons you believe. And, some are even capable of being untrue -- in spite of the truthfulness of the others.

[Yonivore]

From where do the civilian casualties come? Here's one possible answer:

This photo, which I found on some Free Republic post (http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1666537/posts?q=1&&page=801), is allegedly of Hamas fighters, well-armored with human shields:

http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger/2040/308/320/HamasHumanShields.jpg

See all those kids around the Hamas fighters? If any of them were hurt or killed by Israeli counterfire, their blood is on the hands of Hamas, not Israel. If you fight without uniforms and use civilians as shielding or camouflage, you are responsible for their deaths, not the uniformed soldiers on the other side who shoot back. Hezbollah is using all of Lebanon as its shield. Do not become confused on this point, for it is essential to understanding the morality, or lack thereof, in this ugly war.

[clambake]

I'm sure Israel is not interested in laying waste to Lebanon. Lebanon gov. has no control in the south or any other part of their country. If they did, hezbollah would be trapped in the south. Many lebanese are grateful to hezbollah because of their charity, schools, hospital funding. Thats how you win a people over.

Israel has little choice.

[Yonivore]

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/007514.php

[MannyIsGod]

So now that we're at this point, I wonder how this comes to a conclusive end without an escalation at some point that involves nothing short of a large scale invasion of Lebanon. Surely no one things Israel is going to bomb Hezbollah out of existance. Because if the plan is to bomb untill Hezbollah capitulates then the people in charge are rather idiotic.

And really, even if you invade Lebanon, unless Israel plans on keeping troops there for a long long time, how do they plan to keep Hezbollah out of the area? Hezbollah members will simply flee into Syria so where does the strategy then take you?

The Israeli warhawks have undertaken a strategy that provides short term satisfaction in terms of giving the people spilled blood in return for blood that has been spilled but how will this work in the long term with anything short of a large ground war that eventually takes Israel's army into Syria?

One thing is clear to anyone who wishes to see it. Hezbollah will not die, it will have to be killed. I'm not sure Israel has the stomach to make sure that happens. Bombing Lebanon's airports, highways and power plants may give the appearence of having some use, but what is it going to accomplish in the long run?

[Trainwreck2100]

Bombing Lebanon's airports, highways and power plants may give the appearence of having some use, but what is it going to accomplish in the long run?


Make for damn good television

[Nbadan]

Yesterday Iran, today Syria...

Haifa-hit rockets were Syrian made

C
hief of General Staff Lt.-Gen. Dan Halutz said on Sunday afternoon that the more advanced Fajar missiles that were fired with a barrage of other rockets at Haifa on Sunday morning, killing eight people, were made in Syria

JPost (http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1150886006292&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull)

Still waiting for them to lay the blame on lil Kim.

[xrayzebra]

lil Kim is pissed off that this is taking away from him. He is sitting and pouting and
hitting the old bottle hard(er).

[DarkReign]

lil Kim is pissed off that this is taking away from him. He is sitting and pouting and
hitting the old bottle hard(er).

:lmao

True.

[DarkReign]

You know, finally there is a government willing to do something in that region. I say go balls out!

Fuck it! Who wanted to live forever anyway?

I hope Israel declares war on the entire region and fist-fucks everyone. CNN will be on 24 hour watch again in my house. I am so sick and tired of bending over for these Muslim fuckers, I dont even care anymore.

Hopefully, some day, this country will realize that some people dont belong in your borders. Dont kill em, just 'Return to Sender'.


then kill em

[Nbadan]

Israel, meanwhile, seems to have no interest in another occupation..

MATT MOORE
Associated Press


JERUSALEM — Israeli ground troops entered southern Lebanon to attack Hezbollah bases on the border, but they rapidly returned to Israel after conducting their military operations, officials said Monday.

Israel's six-day-old offensive against Hezbollah following the capture of two Israeli soldiers has been primarily an aerial campaign, but government spokesman, Asaf Shariv, said the Israeli army chief of staff confirmed that ground troops had gone into Lebanon, if only briefly.

A military official, insisting on anonymity, said a small group of Israeli troops had crossed into Lebanon overnight to attack a Hezbollah position but then returned to Israel.

“There was a small operation in a very limited area overnight,” the official said. “That is over.”

Israel has been reluctant to send ground troops into southern Lebanon, an area that officials say has been heavily mined by Hezbollah and could lead to many Israeli casualties.

Israel would also want to quickly withdraw from the area, rather than get involved in a prolonged conflict like its 18-year occupation of southern Lebanon that ended in May, 2000. The bloody nature of the fighting at the that time and the high number of casualties finally forced the government to cave into public pressure to withdraw from southern Lebanon and end the contentious occupation.

GLOBE AND MAIL (http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20060717.wisraleba0717/BNStory/International/home)

[MannyIsGod]

Well, if they think they can bomb them into submission I wish them luck in their foolish games.

[Nbadan]

More on Israeli intentions in Lebanon...


snip

Israeli commanders said today that Israel intended to enforce a no-go zone extending about a half-mile north of the border. Israel also confirmed what an army spokesman described as a "very small incursion" overnight to dismantle Hezbollah positions, returning to Israel before first light. No casualties were reported.

The developments came one day after Israel and Hezbollah escalated their blood feud, as dozens of Lebanese died during airstrikes across their nation and the eight Israelis were killed when militants slammed rockets into the port city of Haifa. As explosions shook the earth and families cowered in shelters, both sides vowed to deliver even fiercer blows in the days to come. And world leaders struggled to find a diplomatic path out of the bloodshed.

snip

Although Israel's clash is with Hezbollah, the attacks on this seaside country appear to have done far greater damage to Lebanese civilians and infrastructure. Hezbollah has continued to shoot an unabated barrage of rockets into Israel, in turn frequently hitting civilians, even after Israeli missiles shattered the airport and highways, struck predominantly Christian neighborhoods and drove thousands of people from their homes.

Israel has attacked Hezbollah offices and the headquarters of the group's leader. But about 1,500 airstrikes have also targeted a lighthouse, grain silos, power plants, bridges, airports and a truck packed with children, targets with no apparent relationship to Hezbollah.

"Why are we killing each other? Why are we creating these victims?" asked 60-year-old Yemen Srour, a Lebanese woman whose home was crushed and family members wounded in Sunday morning attacks on Beirut's southern suburbs.
Crouched on a thin foam mattress at a makeshift refugee shelter in Beirut, Srour used the tails of her Islamic head scarf to dab the tears from her cheeks. "I don't think there is a point to this," she said.

Despite the relentless bombings, Israel has not disrupted Hezbollah's leadership or smashed the militants' ability to wage guerrilla war, said Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, Hezbollah's chief.

snip

Former Israeli army chief of staff Shaul Mofaz, now a Cabinet minister, described the rockets used in the Haifa strike as "Syrian ammunition." Israel also said Hezbollah had made first use of Iranian-made Fajr missiles, with a 25-mile range and a much bigger warhead. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice echoed the criticism of Syria and Iran on Sunday, blaming them in part for the crisis.

"I absolutely see that Syria and Iran are playing a part in this. They're not even trying to hide their hand," Rice said in an interview on CBS' "Face the Nation." Rice declined to say whether the U.S. would go so far as to support Israel if it chose to strike Iran in retaliation for that country's alleged role in some of the missile strikes hitting Israel.

Many Lebanese scoff at criticism that Hezbollah is using Iranian-made weaponry, pointing out bitterly that the United States manufactures much of Israel's arsenal.

snip

The Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot reported that elite forces had been deployed in Lebanon.

But Israeli military analysts said a large-scale ground offensive would occur only after military strategists felt that other options — including the air campaign, the naval blockade and the severing of major land routes — had been exhausted.

LA Times (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-071706mideast,0,5229469,full.story?coll=la-home-headlines)

[Nbadan]

Well, if they think they can bomb them into submission I wish them luck in their foolish games.

Utimately, it may be a half-mile buffer zone that Israel is after.

[MannyIsGod]

:lol a half mile buffer zone is the equivlant of a bullet proof vest made of saran wrap.

[MannyIsGod]

Although Israel's clash is with Hezbollah, the attacks on this seaside country appear to have done far greater damage to Lebanese civilians and infrastructure. Hezbollah has continued to shoot an unabated barrage of rockets into Israel, in turn frequently hitting civilians, even after Israeli missiles shattered the airport and highways, struck predominantly Christian neighborhoods and drove thousands of people from their homes.

Israel has attacked Hezbollah offices and the headquarters of the group's leader. But about 1,500 airstrikes have also targeted a lighthouse, grain silos, power plants, bridges, airports and a truck packed with children, targets with no apparent relationship to Hezbollah.

[Nbadan]

:lol a half mile buffer zone is the equivlant of a bullet proof vest made of saran wrap.

This is why the fact that Hezbollah can lob missiles 25-30 miles into Israel complicates things.

[MannyIsGod]

Exactly, which is why I don't see anything short of a ground invasion fixing this. And even then, they're going to need to go into Syria as well because thats exactly where Hezbollah will flee to.

[Nbadan]

Exactly, which is why I don't see anything short of a ground invasion fixing this. And even then, they're going to need to go into Syria as well because thats exactly where Hezbollah will flee to.

Either that, or capitulate and release the Islamic prisoners and remove Hezbollah's main reason for existing as a militant wing. Turn it into a political wing if they want to continue to be a part of Lebanon.

[smeagol]

So what's the solution, Manny and Dan?

[Nbadan]

So what's the solution, Manny and Dan?

Move Israel to South Carolina.

:hat

[Cant_Be_Faded]

Very interesting debate between manny/scott/yoni/gtown (i throw in gtown cuz he's like the comedic relief)

I think one thing you all have to realize is that its not necessarily the truth that we have ALL of the truth in this situation. With the available facts, it is definitely arguable that the Israeli bombings are flat out stupid strategy. But how do we, not having the exact intel Israel does, KNOW that these bombings into Beirut, etc, are not taking out important Hizbollah infrastructure, weapons, etc? Putting aside the question of how these attacks will affect the common Lebanese person, how do we know its not really weakening Hizbollah?

Manny seems to not give Israel the benefit of the doubt, but I do. I agree with Yoni on alot of this, but I'm not so neocon that I don't admit Isreal is BLATANTLY using more force than necessary.

What I want to see from all this is Israel go awol. I want them to follow through with what they say, and root out Hizbollah from Lebanon. What I see here are feints within feints within feints. I am thinking that Israel wants Syria and Iran to be out in the open with their support for Hizbollah and then has a hidden card to play after that.

Who's to say that hte U.S. isn't secretly backing this and maybe even planning it for Israel throughout this entire northern offensive? If Iran joins the battle openly, isn't that want the republicans want? More reason to invade htem and take their assets.

It benefits both sides of the U.S. Israel alliance.

I am thinking Israel sticks to its guns, begins a land invasion of lebanon and tries its very best to get syria to get involved. If they are doing this SOLELY for the quieting of Lebanese based Hizbollah activity, without any future plans of a broader offensive, they are in fact MORONS---i just give them more credit than this I guess.

I also have to say that I believ these airstrikes in Lebanon can weaken Hizbollah, but only temporarily. They need to capitilize, use even more disproportionate use of power, and strike as hard as they can to strike the terrorists a crippling blow.

If they air strike, and just twiddle their thumbs, then it appears Manny has owned you all.


One last thing--on the surface, we see that Israel attacked Lebanon, then Hizbollah unleashed weapons we "didn't know" they had. But what if Israel knew they had them, and expected them to use them, and now confirmed their beliefs? It only connects Syria and Iran further to this terrorist organization. And you all know what the World Police thinks about them terraists! World War Three: Be all that You can be.

[gtownspur]

If they air strike, and just twiddle their thumbs, then it appears Manny has owned you all.



I don't see what the fuck was up with your pussyfooting long post to say such a wasteful sentence.

If Israel does not follow on what they have planned as their objective. Than you're fat ass freind manny had nothing to do with the brilliant discussion.

As you have stated, Israel has to move boldly on this, Manny opposes any bold move, from the outset.

So to your standards, Manny is already fucked.

But who gives a shit about who owns who, and who your favorite poster is, this is not fucking USC vs UT, if Israel fails, no one here is a victor.

We will all reap the repurcussions of this.

It's funny how you have owned yourself, by admitting to this terror problem. Only a year ago did i hound you for being a ludicrous dumbass, because you thought that the islamofascist problem was small and that negotiations was the right course to deal with this.

But it took this situation to finally wake you up to realize that the war on terror is not fought in french palaces with pens and papyrus. It is faught with brute force. Diplomacy is dead. Diplomacy is best after the victors have been decided.

[gtownspur]

So what's the solution, Manny and Dan?


Give up more territories. :rolleyes

[xrayzebra]

A little article about the Israeli Air Force.


The Washington Times
www.washingtontimes.com
Israel capable of air strike on Iran
By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES
Published July 18, 2006

Israel is in the best position militarily in its history to mount air strikes against Iran, after a decade of buying U.S.-produced long-range aircraft, penetrating bombs and aerial refueling tankers.
Tel Aviv has ratcheted up the volume in attacking the hard-line Islamic regime as it fights the Iranian-backed Hezbollah in southern Lebanon. In the past, Israeli politicians have talked openly of attacking Iranian nuclear sites to prevent the U.S.-designated terror state from building atomic warheads.
Israel has purchased 25 $84 million F-15I (I for Israel) Ra'am, a special version of the U.S. F-15E long-range interdiction bomber. It also is buying 102 of another long-range tactical jet, the $45 million F-16I Sufa. About 60 have been delivered.
The Jewish state also is buying 500 U.S. BLU-109 "bunker buster" bombs that could penetrate the concrete protection around some of Iran's underground facilities, such as the uranium enrichment site at Natanz. The final piece of the enterprise is a fleet of B-707 air-to-air refuelers that could nurse strike aircraft as they made the 900-mile-plus trip inside Iran, dropped their bombs and returned to Israel.
"They have the capability to strike Iran," said retired Air Force Lt. Gen. Thomas G. McInerney, a former fighter pilot who has trained with Israelis. "It would be limited, though. They could do 30 to 40 'aim points' in the array. I'm not worried about them hitting the targets. They will suffer losses, but they are capable of doing it."
He said Israeli fighter pilots are "the best in the world. I've flown against them. They train better. They get more flying time."
Perhaps just as important as weapon systems is airspace.
The most direct route would be through Jordanian and Iraqi airspace. Two Israeli pilots showed that they could navigate both without being shot down in 1981, when they flew the 600 miles to the Osirak nuclear reactor near Baghdad, dropped their bombs and returned over Jordan to an air base in southern Israel.
Today, the United States, not Saddam Hussein, controls Iraq's vast airspace. Military analysts suggest the United States might approve the mission passively by letting the jets fly both ways unencumbered.
Gen. McInerney said the United States must grant airspace rights. "They really can't do this without us," he said. "I wouldn't have them do it. We can do it much more aggressively and more decisively. We shouldn't force the Israelis to do it when we should do it."
The retired pilot called Iran's air defenses "1960s vintage" and not as good as the Iraqi defenses that Israeli pilots avoided in 1981.
Vice President Dick Cheney last year revealed Bush administration suspicions that Israel may take pre-emptive action.
"One of the concerns people have is that Israel might do it without being asked, that if, in fact, the Israelis became convinced the Iranians had significant nuclear capability, given the fact that Iran has a stated policy that their objective is the destruction of Israel, the Israelis might well decide to act first, and let the rest of the world worry about cleaning up the diplomatic mess afterwards," he said on the "Imus in the Morning" radio show.
In the Osirak strike, both F-16s made the round trip without aerial refueling, but targets in Iran are at least 300 miles farther away. Although the F-15Is and F-16Is have a combat radius of more than 1,000 miles, the numbers would indicate that the mission might require aerial refueling, thus complicating an already daunting operation.
However, the Web site GlobalSecurity.org says the F-15Is and F-16Is "extended flight range reportedly allows Israeli forces to attack targets well within Iran without having to refuel."
Israeli political leaders have pressed the Bush administration to halt Iran's nuclear weapons program. At the same time, some have publicly stated that Israel will take unilateral action to destroy Iranian facilities if Washington fails to stop it.




Copyright © 2006 News World Communications, Inc. All rights reserved.

Copyright The Washington Times valeoip beacon

[Nbadan]

So what's the solution, Manny and Dan?

Well, there's always the possibility of meaningful negotiations between the two sides. You know, Israel could give up the rest of the occupied territories and release some of the less dangerous prisoners. Hezbollah could be challenged to change from a militant-wing in a polical-wing, you know, kinda like Al-Sadr in Iraq. Maybe put in a multi-national UN force between the two sides like we did in the former Yugoslavia, if Israel would allow it. Turn Jeruselum in a city-state like the Vatican, only not binded to any one religion.

This is a UN problem after all, they put Israel back on the map and this is what years of neglect of the growing tensions between Jews and Palestinians has manifested into.

[Yonivore]

Well, there's always the possibility of meaningful negotiations between the two sides. You know, Israel could give up the rest of the occupied territories and release some of the less dangerous prisoners. Hezbollah could be challenged to change from a militant-wing in a polical-wing, you know, kinda like Al-Sadr in Iraq. Maybe put in a multi-national UN force between the two sides like we did in the former Yugoslavia, if Israel would allow it. Turn Jeruselum in a city-state like the Vatican, only not binded to any one religion.

This is a UN problem after all, they put Israel back on the map and this is what years of neglect of the growing tensions between Jews and Palestinians has manifested into.
Noticeably absent from your negotian points is the whole "Israel has no right to exist and will be wiped from the map" position of their enemies.

A) Can you get them to put that on the bargaining table?

B) How do you assure Israel they've actually dropped that ambition?

It's a foundational tenet of the PLO (and by proxy the PA), Hamas, Hezbollah, and you've got Iran and Syria singing this tune every day.

[Nbadan]

Noticeably absent from your negotian points is the whole "Israel has no right to exist and will be wiped from the map" position of their enemies.

A) Can you get them to put that on the bargaining table?

B) How do you assure Israel they've actually dropped that ambition?

It's a foundational tenet of the PLO (and by proxy the PA), Hamas, Hezbollah, and you've got Iran and Syria singing this tune every day.

Blah, thats just posturing and political pandering. Israel has nuclear weapons and a superior conventional military force to anything the Arabs have. It's not going anywhere. So since Israel basically holds all the political and military cards in the region, it has the most to deal as far as negotiations.

You'll never be able to convince the Israelis to their right to self defense, it has served them well over the years, but they have to realize that they need to recognize Palestinian's citizens right to due process and respect Lebanese borders. For instance, cross-border incursions to soften Hezbollah should include Lebanese forces, they shouldn't be bombing the country's military forces in their barracks, and they certainly shouldn't be bombing Nazarath.

[gtownspur]

Dan.

You know in your own heart that the palestinian people do not want to live peacefully with israel.

[Nbadan]

Dan.

You know in your own heart that the palestinian people do not want to live peacefully with israel.

The Palestinians are tired of war. That's why they chose a pro-US guy like Abbass. The exodus of Syrian troops however has strengthened the political power of Hezbollah, the Syrians actually back another group. The Lebanese Army is too weak to crack down on Hezbollah, much less guard its border against Israeli troops.

[Nbadan]

Worthwhile link...If Americans Knew (http://www.ifamericansknew.org/)

[MannyIsGod]

Give up more territories. :rolleyes:lol

Um, the next terroritory Israel gives up will be the first.

[boutons_]

If Americans knew ...

Palestianians/Hamas and Hezbollah ALSO OUGHT TO KNOW by now that they get their butts kicked every fucking time they attack Israel, they end up losing more people than Israel, but still they keep attacking Israel.

[MannyIsGod]

There are talks of a cease fire within a few days. I dont' think Hezbollah is about to remove itself from southern Lebanon, so I don't know how this is possible. Israel is going to have to invade at some point, I don't see how they can avoid it and actually make this bombing worthwhile. If they call a ceasefire without removing Hezbollah, they've accomplished NOTHING and that will make this bombing all the worse.

At this point, they need to do whatever it takes to get rid of these fuckers. I don't like the path they've started on but the one way to make it way worse would be not to follow through and finish the job.

[boutons_]

I agree Manny, to get at those crappy bottle rockets (small, mobile, easily hidden), IDF will have to put wheels and boots into Lebanon.

[clambake]

How can they possibly finish the job, anyways. They will just flee over the border and reorganize in Syria. Israel can't possibly afford to keep troops in Lebanon forever. The UN couldn't guard a buried safe. The majority of lebanese are blaming Israel as it is.

You can't go after hezbollah without entering syria.

[MannyIsGod]

The solution lies in a stronger Lebanese government and army. You know, the one Israel has been busy bombing.

[Nbadan]

You can't go after hezbollah without entering syria.

They can't go into Syria without opening a whole new can of worms and they also can't destroy ideology with bullets in Lebanon.

[clambake]

A stronger Lebanese army? How about one at all.

There's a new joke going around, origins began in Vietnam.

"Want to buy a Lebanese army gun? It's never been shot and only dropped once".

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I don't see what the fuck was up with your pussyfooting long post to say such a wasteful sentence.

If Israel does not follow on what they have planned as their objective. Than you're fat ass freind manny had nothing to do with the brilliant discussion.

As you have stated, Israel has to move boldly on this, Manny opposes any bold move, from the outset.

So to your standards, Manny is already fucked.

But who gives a shit about who owns who, and who your favorite poster is, this is not fucking USC vs UT, if Israel fails, no one here is a victor.

We will all reap the repurcussions of this.

It's funny how you have owned yourself, by admitting to this terror problem. Only a year ago did i hound you for being a ludicrous dumbass, because you thought that the islamofascist problem was small and that negotiations was the right course to deal with this.

But it took this situation to finally wake you up to realize that the war on terror is not fought in french palaces with pens and papyrus. It is faught with brute force. Diplomacy is dead. Diplomacy is best after the victors have been decided.

I was saying that if all they plan to do is airstrike, then back off and do jack shit, then manny's argument is legit, and the closest to reality.
I said i mostly agreed with yoni. But alot of it is hope on my part that Israel isn't as stupid as Manny thinks they are.
Notice the word if, you comedic genius.
Gtown you are such a silly stupid asshole. I never said we'd feel no reprucussions and I never remember saying the problem of violent muslims was small, I never compared this to usc vs ut, and negotiations could have been decent, but now that israel is going all out, i want them to go ALL OUT.

[MannyIsGod]

It's G culo, who really cares?

[AFE7FATMAN]

The only real way to end the violence along the Lebanese-Israeli border is for the government of Lebanon or United Nations forces them to remove the catalyst for violence — Hezbollah.

[velik_m]

I think the only thing Israel has achieved for now is strenghten support for Hezbolah in Lebanon.

[NuGGeTs-FaN]

I havent read this thread yet but has anyone added a prophetic twist to this saga? :lol

[jochhejaam]

I think the only thing Israel has achieved for now is strenghten support for Hezbolah in Lebanon.
Who's supporting Hezbollah in Lebanon? Other than Iran and other terrorist groups, most of the World has condemned Hezbollah and their actions.

[MannyIsGod]

Thus far, the IAF managed to intercept a number of trucks transporting rockets from Syria to Hizbullah, including trucks laden with the 220mm-diameter rockets with warheads like the one that hit the Haifa train depot Monday, claiming eight lives. Maj.-Gen. Eisenkot said he would be very surprised if official elements in Syria were unaware of these transports.


“These are rockets that belong to the Syrian army. You can’t find them in the Damascus market, and the Syrian government is responsible for this smuggling,” Eisenkot said, but stressed, “We are not operating against Syria or the Lebanese army.”

The fuck? They accuse Syria of arming them but they refuse to act agianst Syria yet they have no problem bombing the Lebanese back into the stone age??!!?!?!?!?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278029,00.html

[jochhejaam]

The fuck? They accuse Syria of arming them but they refuse to act agianst Syria yet they have no problem bombing the Lebanese back into the stone age??!!?!?!?!?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3278029,00.html
Terrorist factions and most Countries are armed by others and you're suggesting that Battles should include the suppliers of arms? Good thinking Manny...

Hezbollah is firing their (Irans/Syrias) rockets from heavily populated areas in Lebanon so where else would the Israeli's strike in retailiation?

[MannyIsGod]

You're telling me that while Isreal is in a direct fight with a group and another group is sitting there handing them bullets for a gun they shouldn't do shit? Thats pretty damn amazing.

Hezbollah isn't firing rockets from apartment buildings in downtown Beriut.

Is there anyone here who actually believes Hezbollah can be defeated from the air?

[jochhejaam]

[QUOTE=MannyIsGod]You're telling me that while Isreal is in a direct fight with a group and another group is sitting there handing them bullets for a gun they shouldn't do shit? Thats pretty damn amazing.
Why would you suggest an escalation of the conflict? That's intelligent Manny.

Who do you think is a major supplier of Israel's armaments? How far would you suggest we take this?
China provided Iran with the C-803 fired by Hezbollah that hit the Israel warship, should they attack Iran and China too?






Hezbollah isn't firing rockets from apartment buildings in downtown Beriut.
Link to where all the rockets are being fired from?





Is there anyone here who actually believes Hezbollah can be defeated from the air?
Again your suggesting an escalation of the battle while most are hoping diplomacy prevails. Why is that?

If you've made me late for work you'll pay Manny :lol

[boutons_]

I think Israel may very well hit Syrian military installations, sooner or later.

Not only do we have Sunni vs Shiite, but also Persians/Iran vs Arabs.

After extensive bombing and shelling of the Hezbollah strongholds, S. Lebanon and S and E Beirut, I think IDF will invade Lebanon precisely becaue they know that's the only chance of really clearing out the Hezbollah. A good chance of working? I don't know.

Israel will have to move against Syria directly, a devastating surprise attack that is made to look like just another attack on Lebanon, if Israel wants this Hezbollah-bashing episode to have really increase Israel security.

I expect UN troops will be delpoyed to S Lebanon to keep Hezbollah down or out.

[MannyIsGod]

Why am I suggestion an escalation? Because thats the only way you're going to finish off Hezbollah. You can't even answer a direct question, Joch. I asked you straight up if you felt Hezbollah was going to be destroyed through arial bombardment and you avoided the question by asking a question of your own.

I flat out think it is amazing that you feel that Syria delivering the. rockets that Israel is trying to destroy is not worthy of a military response. You will support the attack fo a nation based on supposed weapons, but not the attack on a country who is clearly deliverying weapons used in terrorism?

The bottom line is that if Israel doesn't see this through entirely, it is all a gigantic fucking waste. If one week from now we're looking at a ceasefire and you've not done a damn thing on the ground, then you may as well have done nothing but weaken the newest democracy in the region.

Sometimes I really wonder whether you, Yonivore, and Gculo ever actually try to think and develop a position based on the available information or you simply go along with what you are told. Actually, I don't wonder about Yoni doing that because it has become insanely clear that he really does just regurgiate what other people tell him he should think.

Anyhow, what is it that you think can be done dimplomaticly in the region to solves the Hezbollah problem.

[MannyIsGod]

You know, I hate watching Israel hit apartment buildings in Gaza to kill one fucking terrorist while they kill 20 people who's only crime was to live in the wrong place. I hate watching them occupy and keep people in a hellish refugee camps while destroying their infrastructe over and over and over again. I hate the double standard that allows their methods to go unquestioned while an abduction of their troops is a reason to plunge the region into war.

But here they have a chance to actually do something that shows results, and they're managing to fuck that up to. They have the arab world PISSED as hell at Hezbollah, and they're shitting back and bombing the Beruit airport over and over again. Well thats just dandy. I really hope they manage to do this right. Hezbollah is a cancer on Lebanon that needs to be removed, but if they don't do it right and all the way through then this whole thing will have been wasteful idiocy.