How can Spurs draft a player but not use them?

[PlaneFast]

One of the things that seems odd to me is how the Spurs can draft someone like Javtokas, choose not to sign him, and yet no other NBA team can sign him.

Can someone explain if any of this isn't correct:
1) 1st round draft picks receive guaranteed contracts, so generally that person will be on a roster somewhere
2) 2nd round draft picks do not get guaranteed contracts. So if the team that drafts them (or has rights) after training camp decides they don't want to sign them right now, they must be waived, at which point another NBA team can pick them up of waivers or as an FA.
3) Foreign players don't seem to have this restriction. They can be drafted but can be held indefinitely away from any other NBA team. Why is that? It doesn't seem fair that they can be locked out of the NBA on the whim of a single GM.

With such a shortage of centers, it seems Javtokas or Scola might be able to sign with another NBA team.

Jack
PlaneFast.com (http://planefast.com)

[Kori Ellis]

Foreign players who are drafted can sit out a year and then the NBA team that drafted them will lose their rights.

[PlaneFast]

2005 NBA 1 28 Ian Mahinmi
2002 NBA 1 26 John Salmons University of Miami
2 27 Luis Scola
2001 NBA 1 28 Tony Parker
2 27 Robertas Javtokas

So Mahinmi, Scola, and Javtokas have sat out at least a year each. Do we no longer have rights to them?

[ChumpDumper]

Sitting out means playing no pro ball at all.

[exstatic]

2005 NBA 1 28 Ian Mahinmi
2002 NBA 1 26 John Salmons University of Miami
2 27 Luis Scola
2001 NBA 1 28 Tony Parker
2 27 Robertas Javtokas

So Mahinmi, Scola, and Javtokas have sat out at least a year each. Do we no longer have rights to them?
SIT OUT, as in not play anywhere.

[Kori Ellis]

2005 NBA 1 28 Ian Mahinmi
2002 NBA 1 26 John Salmons University of Miami
2 27 Luis Scola
2001 NBA 1 28 Tony Parker
2 27 Robertas Javtokas

So Mahinmi, Scola, and Javtokas have sat out at least a year each. Do we no longer have rights to them?

They haven't sat out. They have to not be under contract with any team anywhere for a year.

[PlaneFast]

OK, I get that.

But it still seems strange to me that for instance,
1) if the Nets don't need a point guard, but say,
2) Atlanta desperately needed a point guard that the Nets drafted 3 years ago
3) and is the best point guard in Euroleague but not as good as Kidd or Williams
4) the Nets never have to transfer rights, even though the drafted player desperately wants to play in the NBA, effectively never allowing him to play in the NBA

Say he calls up the Nets GM and says he wants to play now, but the Nets don't need or want him, and he insults the GM's momma. He's screwed for life and has no recourse as far as I can tell.

This doesn't seem fair.

[TDMVPDPOY]

seriously that fuckn sucks, waste of draft picks if your not goin to use them.

[SPARKY]

How can Spurs draft a player but not use them?

When the Spurs learn they have to pay them.

[Kori Ellis]

OK, I get that.

But it still seems strange to me that for instance,
1) if the Nets don't need a point guard, but say,
2) Atlanta desperately needed a point guard that the Nets drafted 3 years ago
3) and is the best point guard in Euroleague but not as good as Kidd or Williams
4) the Nets never have to transfer rights, even though the drafted player desperately wants to play in the NBA, effectively never allowing him to play in the NBA

Say he calls up the Nets GM and says he wants to play now, but the Nets don't need or want him, and he insults the GM's momma. He's screwed for life and has no recourse as far as I can tell.

This doesn't seem fair.

It might not seem fair, but they know the rules when they enter the draft. If they don't want to enter the draft, then they don't have to do so -- then they can just shop themselves to any NBA team any time.

But if they get drafted, the only way to get away from the NBA team that has their rights is to sit out (or if the team trades their rights).

[ChumpDumper]

Last year we would've taken Scola for sure, but his buyout was astronomical.

It's all about timing.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

What I don't quite get is that 1st round draft picks seem to have salaries structured entirely based on where they were drafted, so as far as I understand it, if we had drafted Scola or Javtokas in the first round there'd be no room for negotiation here, they'd just have to take the standard rookie contract if they want to come.

So by being drafted in the 2nd round they can actually make more money in their first contract than by being drafted earlier. There are other disadvantages to being drafted later (like no guaranteed contract :)) but it just seems weird to me that you can gain some bargaining power by being drafted later.

[timvp]

When the Spurs drafted these players, they thought that they'd be able to bring them over with the LLE like they did Manu. Now for some reason these Euros want big guaranteed money up front so it's a lot harder to bring them over.

[ducks]

TIME FOR STERN TO TAKE CONTRAL
AND MAKE RULES ON MONEY ON SECOND ROUND DRAFT PICKS TO HELP THE SPURS

STERN HATES THE SPURS








































































sacrasm

[ducks]

yeah the euro's are getting paid more over seas
and then some are having success in the nba and now they want the big money
they are starting to act greedy like american players

[PlaneFast]

It might not seem fair, but they know the rules when they enter the draft. If they don't want to enter the draft, then they don't have to do so -- then they can just shop themselves to any NBA team any time.

But if they get drafted, the only way to get away from the NBA team that has their rights is to sit out (or if the team trades their rights).

That introduces an interesting twist. Why would any Euro pro enter the draft unless they are guaranteed to be a 1st round pick? The only difference between being drafted in the 2nd round and being an FA is that if you're drafted, then you're restricted to hoping a single team will sign you instead of being able to be signed by anyone.

There must be some other benefit of being drafted in the 2nd round instead of being an FA.

[strangeweather]

It might not seem fair, but they know the rules when they enter the draft. If they don't want to enter the draft, then they don't have to do so -- then they can just shop themselves to any NBA team any time.
Are you sure that's right?

I thought that foreign players were automatically eligible for the draft when they reach 22, and only players that had previously been draft eligible (because they declared, or because they were 22) and had not been drafted became free agents.

[Mr. Body]

You're right. Once you're 22, you're automatically in. Tiago Splitter faces that pretty soon.

[PlaneFast]

seriously that fuckn sucks, waste of draft picks if your not goin to use them.

Happens every year. Not everyone who gets drafted gets signed:

Drafted by Spurs for Seattle

Chris Carrawell – Duke – 2000 1st Team All-American

The year 2000 was a crummy year to be an All-American also. Half of the selections that season aren’t playing in the NBA right now. We begin things with another Blue Devil, Carrawell. He is the rarest exception of a 1st Team All-American selection – he didn’t play a single minute in the NBA despite being a 2nd round pick of Seattle. To add insult to injury, Duke won a National Championship the year AFTER he graduated! Carrawell now plays in the ballers graveyard that is the ABA, averaging 19.6 points and 5.7 boards for the Rochester RazorSharks.

[ducks]

atleast nba now has a development league

[Mr. Body]

Carrawell wasn't NBA quality. By all rights, two of our foreign stock are, who aren't in the NBA.

[Kori Ellis]

Are you sure that's right?

I thought that foreign players were automatically eligible for the draft when they reach 22, and only players that had previously been draft eligible (because they declared, or because they were 22) and had not been drafted became free agents.

Yeah that's what I'm saying. When they are of automatic draft age (22) and when they aren't drafted they can just go shop themselves to the NBA. Basically I'm saying that no one forced them to be in the draft.

[Mr. Body]

But... their age forced them to be in the draft.

[Kori Ellis]

But... their age forced them to be in the draft.

Wasn't Javtokas drafted at 21? Didn't he want to be drafted?

Also, if a player doesn't want to be drafted and makes it clear he's not coming to the NBA if he's drafted, then I don't think any team would draft him. These players wanted to be drafted. Scola was dying to be drafted. He got mad he didn't get drafted in the first round.

[Mr. Body]

The old paradigm was a player would eventually come over to play with the team that drafted him.

The new paradigm: whatever the fuck the Spurs are doing.

[ducks]

the problem with the players they can cry and get traded
once the first owner said fine it was over
demanding out should never be made public

[Kori Ellis]

No need for Vulgar Language young man!

You see its a long process. I shall explain. Its because I Averaged 25.7 mpg/9.6 ppg/6.3 rpg/1.9 apg/1.3 bpg/1.7 spg ... Led team in RPG, STL; 3rd in PPG; 4th in APG ... In NIT finals win over Michigan, scored 10 PT w/ 12 REB, 5 BLK, 4 STL in 35 MIN ... In NIT semi-final win vs. Louisville, scored 23 PT w/ 8 REB, 3 AST, 4 BLK in 36 MIN ... In NIT second round OT win at Florida State pulled in 13 REB (6 off, 7 def) w/ 8 PT, 3 AST, 5 STL (tied career high) in 42 MIN ... In SEC Tournament final loss to Florida, scored 12 PT w/ 11 REB (fourth double-double of the year), 4 STL, 1 BLK in 34 MIN ... Scored 8 PT w/ 8 REB, 3 AST, 2 STL in 27 MIN in SEC semifinal win over Kentucky ... Tacked together second super game off the bench in SEC Tourney win over UT scoring 16 PT w/ 7 REB, 2 AST, 3 STL and 1 BLK in 27 MIN ... Scored game-high 12 PT w/ 3 REB, 2 AST, 2 BLK, 1 STL in 28 MIN of play in win over MSU in SEC Tourney ... After starting five straight, hasn't started the past three games, but played very well off the bench in win at AU: 6 PT, 6 REB, 2 AST, 1 STL in 26 MIN ... No very effective: 2 PT, 2 REB, 1 TO in 12 MIN in loss to No. 21 LSU ... Scored 10 PT 2/ 6 REB, 3 STL in 24 MIN in loss to Vandy ... Had the game of his life in win over Alabama: 28 PT (11-15 including 2-3 3 PT), 16 REB (7 off, 9 def), 4 STL, 2 BLK, 1 AST in 35 MIN -- career high in points, FG made, FT att, minutes played; tied career high in rebounds, FT att, 3PT made (rewrote almost all season highs) ... Started second straight game in win over MSU, playing 24 MIN w/ 6 PT, 3 REB, 2 BLK and 3 STL ... Started in win at No. 6 UF (first start since UT (1/8/06); 8 PT, 8 REB, 2 AST, 2 STL in 35 MIN -- played with Renaldo-type positive energy ... Shot off the bench like a rocket, scoring 14 PT (6-7) w/ team-high 6 REB in win over No. 4 Florida; 3 STL, 2 AST in 28MIN ... Team leader in REB had just 1 in the 1st half and 1 in the 2nd half vs. UGA; team leader with 14 PT; 1 AST, 1 STL; 12 of 16 games in double figures ... Scored 12 PT w/ 7 REB, 1 BLK, 1 STL in 21 MIN off the bench in loss at Ole Miss ... Tacked together another fine game, scoring 9 PT w/ 9 REB, a career-high 5 AST, 4 STL in 24 MIN in win over S.C. State ... Led team in PT, REB, STL, AST, BLK in Clemson loss, playing heart out in 34 MIN he was on the floor; scored 15 PT, 12 REB (2nd career DD) ... Scored 16 PT (1 off a career high) in win over UNCG; added game-high 7 REB, 2 AST, career-high 5 STL in 27 MIN ... Named to Great Alaska Shootout All-Tournament team; averaged 14.7 PPG, 8.7 RPG, 2.7 APG, 3.0 BPG, 1.3 SPG ... In OT Shootout loss to Marquette again scored in double figures w/ 16 PT, 8 REB, career-high 6 AST, 3 BLK in 30 MIN ... In Monmouth win scored 14 PT w/ 6 REB, 6 TO, 2 BLK, 1 STL in 26 MIN ... Named Player of the Game in win over UAA; first double-double of his career w/ 14 PT, 12 REB, 4 BLK, 3 STL in 34 MIN ... Played on the Score International team with teammate Stephen McDowell that traveled to Germany for competition this past summer playing in five games against international competition ... Led the USA team in rebounds and was second in ppg playing in the Nation's Cup.


Please go to the Troll Forum if you are just going to Troll.

[furry_spurry]

The only other way they can get out, if I remember correctly, is to sign a deal- come to camp- and get cut.

The info about salaries for first round picks is why the Spurs used a first round pick on Ian- to guarantee that non-negotiable cheap salary.

[venitian navigator]

Wasn't Javtokas drafted at 21? Didn't he want to be drafted?

Also, if a player doesn't want to be drafted and makes it clear he's not coming to the NBA if he's drafted, then I don't think any team would draft him. These players wanted to be drafted. Scola was dying to be drafted. He got mad he didn't get drafted in the first round.


If I remember correctly, he was dying to be selected in the first round but he didn't want to be selected in the second...
The reason was obvious because, if there was in his contract an "NBA escape clause" just for the first round of the draft.
However, I think the sistem is actually right, but not absolutely fair, in giving a team the choice to have rights in a player... 'cause the sportlife of some players could be really damaged by these rules.
Maybe something must be worked out...but I understand that is really difficult to find a way to protect all players expectations...

[Bruno]

The info about salaries for first round picks is why the Spurs used a first round pick on Ian- to guarantee that non-negotiable cheap salary.

No, They drafedt him with a first round pick because he wanted a first round guarantee to stay in the draft and because they haven't a second round pick this year.

Mahinmi isn't one of the best player in europe and hasn't a buyout. You can't compare his case to Scola or even Javtokas.

[furry_spurry]

It worked for both sides-- people wondered why the Spurs did not trade down into the second round because they could have gotten him in the second round. Sure, he wanted the guarantee but also so did the Spurs- that they would not have to negotiate when it became time to bring him here. Win-Win.

[Bruno]

Sure, he wanted the guarantee but also so did the Spurs- that they would not have to negotiate when it became time to bring him here. Win-Win.

Disagree because Mahinmi isn't good enough to get more than the min.
I'm pretty sure that Spurs rather draft Mahinmi with a second round pick.

[furry_spurry]

Mahinmi isn't good enough to get more than the min.
Then there are going to be some mighty disappointed Spurs fans. :lol I have never seen such hype over a guy who hasn't done anything.

[Bruno]

Then there are going to be some mighty disappointed Spurs fans. :lol I have never seen such hype over a guy who hasn't done anything.

He is 19 years old.
He looks like a great prospect.

[picnroll]

Also, if a player doesn't want to be drafted and makes it clear he's not coming to the NBA if he's drafted, then I don't think any team would draft him. That would probably have some influence on a marginal NBA quality player but a probable NBA quality player someone would likely throw a late second round pick at even if he said he was giving up basketball to become a Buddhist monk.

Ultimately there aren't too many players of ability in Europe that haven't made it to the NBA if they wanted to. In fact there are quite a few Euro players lacking in ability that have made it.

I'd imagine if the Spurs don't bring Javtokas now or soon they'll start shopping his rights and what then waht might keep him from coming is more teams' perception of his ability than anything else

[Mr. Body]

Ultimately there aren't too many players of ability in Europe that haven't made it to the NBA if they wanted to.

It's redundant, but... I can think of two.

[spur219]

If I was Scola and Jovotkas I would sit out for a year. Its not fair for them.

[PlaneFast]

It worked for both sides-- people wondered why the Spurs did not trade down into the second round because they could have gotten him in the second round. Sure, he wanted the guarantee but also so did the Spurs- that they would not have to negotiate when it became time to bring him here. Win-Win.

It's even better for the Spurs: they don't have to sign him at all. It costs them nothing to "leave him in Europe" for years, or even his entire career.

What I think is weird is Javtokas, who, if he's as good as everyone here is saying he is :lol , might get some interest from non-Spurs teams who might be willing to pay him a bit more than the Spurs. He's stuck, like an indentured servant, even though the Spurs have done literally nothing for him, haven't paid him a dime, they still control whether he plays in the NBA or not. I wonder if that breaks some EU competition/monopoly rules.

As another side observation, I think it's weird that someone who is theoretically NBA caliber and thus pro caliber, would be forced to sit out a year and make no money as a bballer and get rusty, so that he can get off his draft team and join a team that needs him.

The amount of control individual NBA teams have over players' lives, who they don't pay, is remarkable.

[Mr. Body]

If I were Scola, I'd sue the NBA to change rules for 2nd rounders. Something like, if a team fails to sign a player (foreign or not) within 3 years, they lose the rights. That sounds reasonable to me.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

If Scola or Javtokas were willing to take the LLE I'm sure the Spurs would bring them over in a heartbeat, so I don't see how this makes the Spurs the ultimate bad guys in all this.

It's a two way street. Maybe the Spurs are being cheap and not giving them as much money as they deserve, but the players could also be acting greedy and asking for too much...

[Bruno]

If I were Scola, I'd sue the NBA to change rules for 2nd rounders. Something like, if a team fails to sign a player (foreign or not) within 3 years, they lose the rights. That sounds reasonable to me.

Changing 2nd rounders rule is a good idea but I don't like your idea because a player can simply ask for a max contract during 3 years if he wants to enter in the nba as a free agent.
A good rule can be to have a rookie contract scale for 2nd rounders (likely the min salary) like for 1st rounder and teams able to give $1M for buyout instead of $500K.

[Mr. Body]

If Scola or Javtokas were willing to take the LLE I'm sure the Spurs would bring them over in a heartbeat, so I don't see how this makes the Spurs the ultimate bad guys in all this.

But that's not market value. Market value for accomplished internationals is at least twice the LLE now. With Garbajosa, Jasikevicius, and Parker coming over lately, the price has gone up even higher than that.

The Spurs are living in the stone age.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

But that's not market value. Market value for accomplished internationals is at least twice the LLE now. With Garbajosa, Jasikevicius, and Parker coming over lately, the price has gone up even higher than that.

The Spurs are living in the stone age.
The Spurs have his NBA rights though, so the feeling probably is they don't have to pay his market value because he's not actually on the NBA free market. All those other players (you can add Oberto to that list as well) were all undrafted, iirc, so they were able to go wherever they pleased, hence able to obtain their "market value".

[ChumpDumper]

If I were Scola, I'd build a time machine to avoid signing that stupid contract with Tau.

[Mr. Body]

That's just nuts. The Spurs will never bring aboard any of their draftees if they keep playing their own version of "one team's idea of market value." Coaches will stop catering to their scouting trips, agents and players will be less receptive to recruiting visits, and the hard work the Spurs have put in creating a scouting network overseas in the last 10 years will go down the crapper.

[Mr. Body]

If I were Scola, I'd build a time machine to avoid signing that stupid contract with Tau.

And somehow not let the Spurs draft him.

[ChumpDumper]

He'd already be a Spur if not for that stupid contract.

[Mr. Body]

He'd already be a Spur if not for that stupid contract.

And the Spurs wouldn't be spouting the stupid "He can't play next to Duncan" bullshit.

[ChumpDumper]

Depends on how he would've done against the Mavs.

[Winnipeg_Spur]

That's just nuts. The Spurs will never bring aboard any of their draftees if they keep playing their own version of "one team's idea of market value." Coaches will stop catering to their scouting trips, agents and players will be less receptive to recruiting visits, and the hard work the Spurs have put in creating a scouting network overseas in the last 10 years will go down the crapper.
Even if these players have completely soured them on taking international players with 2nd round picks (which I doubt) the Spurs can still draft international players they really want in the 1st round. That way the amount they can sign for is already decided (and in most cases even less than the LLE) and so there won't be any negotating about market value or such. So I don't think all that work will be wasted.

[Mr. Body]

You're right, Winny, but doubtless San Antonio's reputation with foreign talent is now no longer unbesmirched.

[furry_spurry]

I think one thing also is that while we just look at the money and the dollar signs, to a player it is a measure of how much that team values you- what they think you are worth. When the Spurs will give Oberto 3/$7M and Elson 2/$6M- what message does it send to a guy like Javtokas if they lowball him with a cheap offer. Of course, it is because the team with the draft rights holds all the power and can hold it over the guy that they control the only was into the NBA. But what I think the Spurs are newly experiencing is that more European players are saying- OK- then I'll just stay in Europe.

The Spurs don't really care about anything but the Spurs. That is their job and why they have the positions within the organization that they do. They are used to being hardasses about things and it is starting to backfire. No longer are players begging to come to the Spurs. When people ask why the Spurs signed Elson to the offer sheet- I tell them it is simple- he is who they could get. For a big guy and only wanting to give a two-year deal, Elson was the option who would agree.

[Mr. Body]

:hang

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

This is a good thread with lots of informative and useful material.















Where the hell am I?