Spurs Roster as it stands right now [Archive]

El_Mago

07-14-2006, 12:46 PM

PG:Parker,Udrih,Vaughn
SG:Ginobili,Barry,
SF:Bowen,Finley,Williams,
PF:Bonner,*Butler,Horry
C: Duncan,*Elson,Oberto

*Offersheets need to be matched.

Now, with Javtokas it appears like the deal with him is dead, and he will be heading over to Greece.

The possibility of getting Elson is rather high at the moment especially since his own coach has spoken about how it will be hard to match Elson's deal and it will be hard to find a replacement for him.

The possibility of getting Butler has improved over the past few days, with reports out of NY saying that it's more like 50/50.

I can live with splitting the MLE with both of Elson and Butler because what Elson does good is run the floor, and I have no doubt Duncan can make him a bit better, but nothing to where we can expect double-doubles from him on a consistent basis. But, he is quick on his feet, hustles, and hopefully can get some offense going...because defense does not look like his cup of tea.

Butler has the upside, grit down low, good hands, and low post efficiency. I like the demeanor he has, and he never quits down low and can be aggressive.

I wish the Spurs would be able to get a little more youth at the wing position (maybe someone like Woods), but that does not appear likely via free agency....

However, if Butler does not end up a Spur, we still have the other half of the MLE and that changes the dynamics of things, so the could then make a push for a young wing with the rest of the MLE.....

If that occurs, Jackie would then be back in NY, and Woods would be available or even someone like Ariza or even Butler out of NO.....

What do you guys think? Comfortable with the roster?

It doesn't look great, but if a team can come together and mesh.....you never know what can happen.....

Spurologist

07-14-2006, 12:57 PM

You are speaking of now, so you might as well take out Butler and Silver Star's future star player.

As of now, the Spurs Roster is COMPLETE GARBAGE, reletively speaking

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 12:57 PM

What do you guys think? Comfortable with the roster?

Absolutely not. I'm fairly disgusted by it.

I understand getting Bonner. Get rid of Rasho. Sure. But if Bonner starts, we're losing .500 of our games. He ain't much of a player. Williams is nothing more than a contract.

Elson can play physical and is fast or something. He was also one of the worst performers in the playoffs last year. If he's all we get out of this offseason, this will probably be the worst offseason in Spurs' history.

If we get Butler, I feel much better about things. It means we have stolen a very young big man with a very bright future. Excellent.

I don't like that we screwed up the Scola situation, but understand how difficult it was. I can't stand that we screwed the pooch on the Javtokas situation. Not living in SA, I don't go to local games. Otherwise I'd be waving the Lithuanian flag and taunting both R.C. and Elson for every crap play and foul he committs. That's my right as a fan.

If we don't manage to trade for a young wing, we're utterly screwed.

The roster is putrid. After the Three plus Bowen, plus Finley, we're in wretched shape. Barry and Horry are in quantum decline.

LEONARD

07-14-2006, 12:59 PM

Seems pretty solid... :fro

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 01:00 PM

Seems pretty solid... :fro
For a car wash. :fro :drunk

MaNu4Tres

07-14-2006, 01:02 PM

i agree spurs still need to get younger and more athletic at the 2 or 3. Hopefully a trade is in the works with barry or williams departing.

1Parker1

07-14-2006, 01:03 PM

PG:Parker,Udrih,Vaughn
SG:Ginobili,Barry,
SF:Bowen,Finley,Williams
PF:Bonner,*Butler,Horry
C: Duncan,*Elson,Oberto

Spurs 2006-2007 Champs :drunk

SA210

07-14-2006, 01:04 PM

Absolutely not. I'm fairly disgusted by it.

I understand getting Bonner. Get rid of Rasho. Sure. But if Bonner starts, we're losing .500 of our games. He ain't much of a player. Williams is nothing more than a contract.

Elson can play physical and is fast or something. He was also one of the worst performers in the playoffs last year. If he's all we get out of this offseason, this will probably be the worst offseason in Spurs' history.

If we get Butler, I feel much better about things. It means we have stolen a very young big man with a very bright future. Excellent.

I don't like that we screwed up the Scola situation, but understand how difficult it was. I can't stand that we screwed the pooch on the Javtokas situation. Not living in SA, I don't go to local games. Otherwise I'd be waving the Lithuanian flag and taunting both R.C. and Elson for every crap play and foul he committs. That's my right as a fan.

If we don't manage to trade for a young wing, we're utterly screwed.

The roster is putrid. After the Three plus Bowen, plus Finley, we're in wretched shape. Barry and Horry are in quantum decline.
All this x10

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 01:06 PM

You forgot Melzer....

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 01:08 PM

You forgot Poland!! :lol

El_Mago

07-14-2006, 01:11 PM

Did I or did I just not want to acknowledge that signing. :depressed

Seriously, the Spurs did not need to do that, but whatever.

But, you're right...he's on the roster.

The team does not look strong.

Thinking trade is alot to ask for when talking about the Spurs. Knowing they already did one this summer, and hoping for a second one to bring in a wing is asking way too much....I wouldn't hold my breath.

Spurologist

07-14-2006, 01:12 PM

For a car wash. :fro :drunk

Since sucking is not involved in car washing, what will Melzer's role be?

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 01:17 PM

Since sucking is not involved in car washing, what will Melzer's role be?

Hold the towel? He has extremely long arms. It's one of his 'talents.'

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 01:20 PM

But, you're right...he's on the roster.He's not, unless you are going to expand our roster to 28.

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 01:24 PM

He's not, unless you are going to expand our roster to 28.

That's an idea, like when King Kong Bundy took on all those midget wrestlers...

El_Mago

07-14-2006, 01:28 PM

Well, techincally he is on the Roster right?

I mean, he can get cut....but isn't part of the deal guaranteed?

shaggy17

07-14-2006, 01:35 PM

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 01:35 PM

Well, techincally he is on the Roster right?

I mean, he can get cut....but isn't part of the deal guaranteed?So put all 28 on there then.

Streakyshooter08

07-14-2006, 01:38 PM

I am also not thrilled with the current roster but that it "sucks" or is "trash" is a little bit over- reacting. If the Spurs get Butler/ Elson it is not that bad, Rasho and Nazr also did not play that much of a role.

They kind of "traded" Rasho/ Nazr for Bonner/ Elson/ Buttler and I don't see how a 63 win team is going to be a bad team because they got rid of 2 C's that did not play much. The rotation will be:

Butler/ TD/ Horry/ Bonner
Bruce/ Manu/ Finley
Parker/ Vaughn

That is NOT a bad team.. but it might not be good enough to win it all though

:pctoss

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 01:38 PM

Agreed with everything you just said yet people think what we got is enough to win the title! :rolleyes However... I am going to keep my trust that the front office knows what they are doing and that they replace most of these nbdl scrubs and get some actual quality for once. Believe!

I didn't mean to suggest the Spurs could win the championship this year. I mark them as savvy 2nd rounders that simply run out of steam. And in that round won't be as competitive as last year.

I don't trust this front office. Not anymore. I think they're getting chintzy and it's really hurting.

El_Mago

07-14-2006, 01:39 PM

I get you now, Dumper.

I didn't read the length of the Meltzer article.

It was just a summer league signing......the first lines make it sound like he had secured a roster spot for two years.

Thanks.

SpursChampsIII

07-14-2006, 01:47 PM

Add Butler, Elson, and either Woods, Ariza, R. Butler, and we are NBA Champs for sure. Add either Butler or Elson and one of the aforementioned SF's, and we are definitely in the running for the title. The Spurs are without two players that didn't play in the series vs. Dallas, and we still lost that series and likely the NBA championship with a 15-second span. They added Bonner, Williams and will likely add at least two of the players mentioned above...what the problem is?

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 01:50 PM

Ah, Rasual Butler is the answer! But what was the question?

El_Mago

07-14-2006, 01:54 PM

Well, to even consider Woods or Butler from New Orleans, Butler for NY would have to be matched because I doubt Elson is matched, and I doubt Bulter (NO) or Woods would come to the Spurs for the LLE.

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 01:56 PM

The SF will have to come by trade. Hence my sarcastic mentions of a Barry + cash + 1st rounder trade for Rasual Butler.

El_Mago

07-14-2006, 02:04 PM

I don't think NO is interested in dealing with SA, and especially for that package of Barry and Cash because the Spurs are not going to give up a 1st rounder.

NO, no longer has interest in Butler, and Butler will more than likely just be signed out-right by someone.

The Spurs also don't seem to want to spend the LLE this year, so unless the Knicks don't match.....I don't see a SF coming onto this team, unless they are from the Summer League.

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 02:13 PM

Jesus, I hope my trade proposal was a joke. Butler ain't worth even Barry.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 02:39 PM

PG:Parker,Udrih,Vaughn
SG:Ginobili,Barry,
SF:Bowen,Finley,Williams,
PF:Bonner,*Butler,Horry
C: Duncan,*Elson,Oberto

Obviously age is a problem.

PG - Parker will have to play major minutes as nobody trusts Udrih and Vaughn is a journeyman.

SG - Ginobili will have to play major minutes as Barry is very old, I can see Finley playing back-up here ... alot.

SF - Bowen will have to play alot, backed up by Finley at this position as well as Williams is useless.

PF - Bonner is untested with big minutes, Horry is the old timer on the team (that's saying something on this team) and Butler is a question mark ... If Butler comes, this position will still be the weakest ... having a weak PF position in the West with the likes of Dirk, Garrnet, AK-47, Gasol, Odom, Brand is a recipe for disaster.

C - Duncan will have to play alot as the two behind him have nothing to offer. On the good side this becomes a solid position with this line-up :)

In short the starters will have to play ALOT of minutes and the sixth man (Finley) will also be counted on for big minutes .... Any injury to a starter (besides PF's, that position sucks anyway :) ) will be a killer of an injury.

furry_spurry

07-14-2006, 02:40 PM

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 02:40 PM

Gee, starters play alot.

Shocking.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 02:42 PM

Poeple are so focused on one play-off series with Dallas that they seem to have forgotten there is an ENTIRE regular season. That roster- as it now stands- will not win enough games to secure a top 3 record in the West. Regardless of how little Nazr and Rasho played in that one series, they did contribute to the best record in franchise history.
If the big men know where to stand, we'll be fine. All we're shooting for with centers is mediocrity. Nazr and Rasho didn't set an unattainable standard.

JGrice02

07-14-2006, 02:43 PM

The Spurs also don't seem to want to spend the LLE this year, so unless the Knicks don't match.....I don't see a SF coming onto this team, unless they are from the Summer League.

I can't say I agree with this. My guess is the Spurs offered Javtokas the LLE but he wanted more. They are probably willing to spend it on the right player. That player has not surfaced though. That or the Spurs want to settle the big man situation before using the LLE on someone else. If either Butle or Elson do not come I would not be surprised to see the Spurs find another big with the LLE and use the remainder of the MLE on a SF.

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 02:44 PM

It's how MUCH you play your starters. Play them too many minutes, say Hello! to injuries and extreme fatigue when the POs come around.

We'll have fun resting a huge burden on all Three. Have fun watching them be All-Stars. Have fun watch them collapse in the Second Round.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 02:45 PM

The Spurs also don't seem to want to spend the LLE this yearIt's two days into the signing period. What team has already used its LLE?

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 02:45 PM

Gee, starters play alot.

Shocking.

The differance is that the will HAVE to play alot to win games ... no days off for rest and such (unless playing the Hawks, of course)

Last year Nick could play some minutes if Parker needed a breather ... no such luxury this year .... with Finley covering two positions ... The same goes for Manu and Bowen

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 02:46 PM

furry_spurry

07-14-2006, 02:46 PM

Aren't they at the luxury tax with the MLE?

Leetonidas

07-14-2006, 02:47 PM

Whatever happend to CJ Watson?

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 02:47 PM

Eh, Manu is the only one who will flame out, but that happens every year.

Like 2005. We might have won the Championship if he had only been around to have a series of career performances. :rolleyes

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 02:49 PM

They paid tax last season, in spite of all the tractor comments and "Beno for a second rounder" fables.

That said, it's more likely there will be a trade at some point.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 02:50 PM

I really think that this line-up would be a mistake ... Bonner is not ready for the Wests power forwards, they are going to eat him alive.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 02:51 PM

Like 2005. We might have won the Championship if he had only been around to have a series of career performances. :rolleyesSo are you worried about him or not? We're fucking loaded at the swing spots. Manu should be the least likely to be overplayed.

Leetonidas

07-14-2006, 02:52 PM

By the way, Jackie Butler is a center, not a PF.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 02:52 PM

I really think that this line-up would be a mistake ... Bonner is not ready for the Wests power forwards, they are going to eat him alive.Bonner won't start.

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 02:53 PM

So are you worried about him or not? We're fucking loaded at the swing spots. Manu should be the least likely to be overplayed.

What the hell are you talking about? Swing spots - Manu, Bowen, Barry, Finley.

That's loaded? Oh, I forgot even more geriatric Eric Williams. :rolleyes

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 02:54 PM

What the hell are you talking about? Swing spots - Manu, Bowen, Barry, Finley.

That's loaded? Oh, I forgot even more geriatric Eric Williams. :rolleyesYes, that's loaded.

Winnipeg_Spur

07-14-2006, 02:56 PM

Spurs don't usually overplay their stars to win regular season games, I don't see why they'll start now.

If Duncan is healthy and stays healthy *knock on wood* the Spurs are already better than last year, so let's just all calm down...

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 02:58 PM

Bowen+Barry+Finely = 100+ years of living experiance

Thats good right? In life YES, in basketball .... NOT

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 02:59 PM

Bowen+Barry+Finely = 100+ years of living experiance

Thats good right? In life YES, in basketball .... NOTWould've beaten Miami....

infinite styles

07-14-2006, 03:02 PM

Whats so different about this team from the other championship teams? 2003 and 2005 had Tony, Manu, and Tim and a bunch of unknowns and washed up old timers. Nothing has changed. I think that they match up well with the rest of the NBA and especially with a healthy Tim and Manu and a much improved Parker. I won't be jumping ship at all even if it does get bad.

El_Mago

07-14-2006, 03:02 PM

It's two days into the signing period. What team has already used its LLE?

Not every team can use it this year.

I said it does not seem, and I didn't say they wouldn't.

I would think Ludden would have at least mentioned it in the papers if the Spurs were planning on using it. They could very well be saving it for next year.

By the way, if anyone really thought Jak was coming to this team based on the LLE you're out of your mind. He wanted half the MLE at least......if Oberto got that, Jak should of too....Oberto screwed us over by never living up to his contract......yeah, it might of been small, but the Spurs are not going to pay Euro's so easily now....at least until Oberto is off the books....and especially since Euro teams are starting to pay their NBA quality players good money.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 03:05 PM

If Duncan is healthy and stays healthy *knock on wood* the Spurs are already better than last year, so let's just all calm down...

Holy Cow!

Better?

Wow, I don't know where to start .. BETTER?

Vaughn > NVE?
35yr Bowen, 36yr Horry, 35yr Barry, 33yr Finley > 34yr Bowen, 35yr Horry, 34yr Barry, 32yr Finley?
Elston+Oberto > Nazr and Rasho?

You are kidding right?

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 03:06 PM

Not every team can use it this year.But many can -- who has used it?
I said it does not seem, and I didn't say they wouldn't.I don't think they will unless they sent out some players in a trade.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 03:08 PM

Bonner won't start.

A team needs to have five on the floor. Now we know who four of the five are ... but who will be the fifth?

phxspurfan

07-14-2006, 03:09 PM

team goes where time goes. once again. his performance + some clutch shots or plays = another championship. dont forget how much better he makes everyone around him.

phxspurfan

07-14-2006, 03:10 PM

tim^

Winnipeg_Spur

07-14-2006, 03:11 PM

Holy Cow!

Better?

Wow, I don't know where to start .. BETTER?

Vaughn > NVE?
35yr Bowen, 36yr Horry, 35yr Barry, 33yr Finley > 34yr Bowen, 35yr Horry, 34yr Barry, 32yr Finley?
Elston+Oberto > Nazr and Rasho?

You are kidding right?
Healthy Duncan >>>>>>>>> Injured Duncan

The rest of the inequalities pale in comparison to this one.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 03:12 PM

A team needs to have five on the floor. Now we know who four of the five are ... but who will be the fifth?If he's not matched, it will be Elson.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 03:17 PM

Healthy Duncan >>>>>>>>> Injured Duncan

The rest of the inequalities pale in comparison to this one.

Isn't that sort of an "If". Lets say that it is true for arguements sake though. Duncan averaged what vs the Mavs while injured? 35-14 ... something like that? I don't know the numbers but it seemed like he was getting about that.

How much better to you expect a healthly TD to play? Seriously, are you expecting him to do that all years and continue in the playoffs?

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 03:19 PM

I expect him to play the way he did in the playoffs against Dallas.

His usual dominant self.

If you don't know anything about his injury last season, don't act like you do.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 03:22 PM

If he's not matched, it will be Elson.

So you are saying it will be

Parker
Manu
Bowen
Duncan
Elston

If Duncan is at PF then the center position is very weak, if he is at center then PF is weak ... Either way the Spurs have a grand total of one big man that has demonstrated that he can play big minutes in the league (Horry is past that point)

And that does not bode well for the upcoming season

SenorSpur

07-14-2006, 03:24 PM

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 03:25 PM

If Duncan is at PF then the center position is very weakAnd in what way is this a change?

It's not, so you're whining is moot.

Now run along and try to change the rules so you won't lose to freaking Miami again. That does not bode well for the Mavs.

El_Mago

07-14-2006, 03:26 PM

But many can -- who has used it?

Don't know, Dumper. I don't keep up with as many other teams as I do with the Spurs. If anyone has, I have not heard of any....plus, teams keeps signings disclosed sometimes.

Bonner won't start.

I was not going to but, Butler as starting because he is not a guarantee yet. Horry is too old to start. So, Bonner was the only one that truly fit.

I'm not putting Duncan at PF, because I believe RC had mentioned that they see Duncan as playing the Center spot from here on out......

Oberto does not deserve to start, and Elson like Butler is not a guarantee.....

Therefore, I just put Bonner as the starting PF....

I imagine if Butler joins we throw the kid into the fire and it looks like this:

Parker
Ginobili
Bowen
Butler
Duncan

Spurs Dynasty 21

07-14-2006, 03:27 PM

Roster is VERY old and ass right now that's how it stand

Pop better have some trades up his sleeve

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 03:27 PM

I expect him to play the way he did in the playoffs against Dallas.

His usual dominant self.

If you don't know anything about his injury last season, don't act like you do.

At no point in his career has he played like that in the regular season, now he does do well in the playoffs ... at least against the Mavs anyway .... he kind of faultered vs the Kings ..... I don't think that a 23-10 player can turn it up THAT MUCH at this point in his career.

As for his injury, I was mearly saying that if guy gets 35-15 while injured he should get something like 45-20 when healthy .... Right? Either the injury slowed him ... or it didn't .... I don't think that it did (at least vs the Mavs)

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 03:29 PM

At no point in his career has he played like that in the regular season, now he does do well in the playoffs ... at least against the Mavs anyway .... he kind of faultered vs the Kings ..... I don't think that a 23-10 player can turn it up THAT MUCH at this point in his career.

As for his injury, I was mearly saying that if guy gets 35-15 while injured he should get something like 45-20 when healthy .... Right? Either the injury slowed him ... or it didn't .... I don't think that it did (at least vs the Mavs)Again, you don't know anything about his injury, so run along to the rules committee.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 03:35 PM

And in what way is this a change?

It's not, so you're whining is moot.

Elston and Butler are not even NBA proven at this point in their careers, neither has ever gotten starter minutes for any length of time. Nazr and Rasho have shown that they at least know what to do with the minutes (They didn't do it very well, but they did know)

Now run along and try to change the rules so you won't lose to freaking Miami again. That does not bode well for the Mavs.

I don't think that Miami will make it to the Finals next year. They are in the East, that means that it is not a team to "build against". The Spurs and Suns on the other hand are in the West .... Those are the teams a pay most attention to.

I don't think that rules need to be changed .... I think that they are fine how they are.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 03:38 PM

Again, you don't know anything about his injury, so run along to the rules committee.

So I take it that you think that his numbers were kept down because of his injury? Even though he played like Superman

El_Mago

07-14-2006, 03:39 PM

Duncan's injury was really hard to heal.....he just couldn't sit out for a week during the season and expect it to heal....he needed nearly a complete offseason to even get back to 100%.....come november Duncan should be good to go.

If anything, Bigmen like Duncan don't start hitting their peak until early 30's. I believe Hakeem was MVP, DPOY, and won the Championship at age 34. O'Neal went on the rampage with the Lakers during his very early 30's and now just one a title this year with the Heat.

Duncan is a finese player. He does not rely on athleticism to dominate, and he plays a low post game, and is fundamentally sound. He's not like a SG, or SF....who end up having bad knee's by the time they hit 34. Duncan has taken good care of himself, will be rested, and we still have a lot more to see of him.......

I expect him to pick up his game and come out hungry for a title....

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 03:39 PM

So I take it that you think that his numbers were kept down because of his injury? Even though he played like SupermanI take it that you know nothing about his injury.

JGrice02

07-14-2006, 03:40 PM

Again, you don't know anything about his injury, so run along to the rules committee.

I think he's right. Considering how well Duncan played against the Mavs I don't think his injury bothered him much, especially on offense. He admitted to as much before the series started, saying he felt as healthy as he had all season. Was he 100%? No, but who is at that point in the season?

The Duncan that showed up against Dallas is about as good as it gets at this point in his career (offensively). There was really only one area I thought Duncan struggled in the Mavs series and that was on defense. I don't know that he can play much better on offense. But I definitely think he can be better on defense.

Winnipeg_Spur

07-14-2006, 03:40 PM

Isn't that sort of an "If". Lets say that it is true for arguements sake though. Duncan averaged what vs the Mavs while injured? 35-14 ... something like that? I don't know the numbers but it seemed like he was getting about that.

How much better to you expect a healthly TD to play? Seriously, are you expecting him to do that all years and continue in the playoffs?
It's a huge if, just like it's a huge if to expect Dirk to be healthy all year. A player can be hit with an injury (minor or major) pretty much any time, and that can have a huge impact on your season. Just ask the Suns.

It's not all about the numbers. Duncan had a ridiculous series against the Mavs but a large part of that was because they were single covering him with scrubs like Dampier and Diop so it's hard to compare that with his regular season numbers when even injured he sees so many double teams.

The biggest impact his injury and lack of mobility had on him last year was it really hurt his help defense, and as a result it crippled the Spurs defensively. As much as people talk about Rasho, Nazr and going small, Tim is our defensive anchor and so if he is back to his normal defensively dominant self our D will be fine, no matter which random scrub is next to him.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 03:41 PM

Elston and Butler are not even NBA proven at this point in their careers, neither has ever gotten starter minutes for any length of time. Nazr and Rasho have shown that they at least know what to do with the minutes (They didn't do it very well, but they did know)So you don't know anything about Elson either. Why are you here?
I don't think that rules need to be changed .... I think that they are fine how they are.Then find out a way to not suck so bad against a clearly inferior team. That does not bode well for the Mavs.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 03:56 PM

I take it that you know nothing about his injury.
I think that your comebacks are getting a little repetitious, you should come up with a new one ... But then again, I am already over it :)

I expect him to pick up his game and come out hungry for a title....
Good points El Mago

I don't know that he can play much better on offense. But I definitely think he can be better on defense.

Also a good point, though vs the Mavs his defense was not tested much (Dampier and Diop ... you understand)

Tim is our defensive anchor and so if he is back to his normal defensively dominant self our D will be fine, no matter which random scrub is next to him.

It seems like everyone is making good points but ChumpDumper.

I am just not sure that his improvement will be enough to compensate for the rest of the teams slippage.

Why are you here?

One of your posters (uses a different name then the one I know, I guess) pointed this site out to me and said that my posts would spark conversation .... I think that he was right :)

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 04:00 PM

I think that your comebacks are getting a little repetitious, you should come up with a new one Not until you prove otherwise.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 04:05 PM

Not until you prove otherwise.

That's a good one, you can use that for many topics, its very versatile ... good work coming up with it.

Honestly, I am not TDs doctor ... I don't know how much it slowed him .... His stats would indicate that it didn't slow him at all though ... Do you want me to post his numbers vs the Mavs and show you just how well he played? Just how far above anything he did in the regular season? Would that prove that his play was not slowed?

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 04:08 PM

No, if you knew anything about his injury, you wouldn't even be bringing it up now.

Kori Ellis

07-14-2006, 04:13 PM

PG:Parker,Udrih,Vaughn
SG:Ginobili,Barry,
SF:Bowen,Finley,Williams,
PF:Bonner,*Butler,Horry
C: Duncan,*Elson,Oberto

That roster sucks.

But I don't think Bonner would ever start at PF ... that would be Tim. If Butler and Elson are signed, then Elson might start in the beginning of the season at center but I'd hope Butler would take over quick at that spot.

Also I don't think Barry or Williams will be here to start the season, so their might be other options.

nkdlunch

07-14-2006, 04:16 PM

All healthy Duncan + Manu + Bowen + Parker + Finley + Barry
sounds pretty good.

If that's the same come next playoffs we have a good chance

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 04:17 PM

My thoughts are Elson is here almost exclusively to start at center for a while, then fade away and come off the bench to let Butler take over. I believe he's on a 2-yr contract. They must expect to trade him away next summer coupled with another expiring (Oberto/Barry). It's a one-year rental.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 04:21 PM

No, if you knew anything about his injury,

OUCH, I guess were back to the old comeback :).

I didn't bring up his injury ... someone else did ... I brought up Parkers injury ... on a different thread.

Overall, I am just sick of every player claiming injury or sickness before games and then playing like they have no such thing wrong with them.

I call it Jordan-itus. They all want to be like Mike and play well with the flu ... or whatever to show their greatness (or want to be greatness as the case maybe)

I go to work reguardness of any pain that I may have, If I am hurt to the point that I cannot do something, I tell someone to get reduced duties. I don't claim sickness then go out and do the best job or my career.

If I am going to do my best, then that is what I do, reguardless of pain.

Now to TDs sake, he didn't claim injury (TV did it for him) and he went out and played through it, and played out of his mind.

For that series he put the pain behind him, and played great. Now the question is this "Can he play any better then what he did while ignoring the pain vs the Mavs?" because 35-15 is more then MVP numbers, its more the Hall of Fame numbers

I don't think that he can do it all season .... not even close. He played that well and the Spurs lost .... He played that well, and the Spurs were a tip-in away from going out 4-1

Just how good does he have to be?

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 04:23 PM

Jesus, you don't even know what it was, do you?

FromWayDowntown

07-14-2006, 04:24 PM

Just how good does he have to be?

Good enough to win 16 playoff games.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 04:27 PM

Also I don't think Barry or Williams will be here to start the season, so their might be other options.

Williams has value (expiring contract) Barry on the other hand is dead money, next year his contract will be expiring, then he will have value

All healthy Duncan + Manu + Bowen + Parker + Finley + Barry
sounds pretty good.

All healthy ... I agree, I don't think its very likely though

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 04:32 PM

Jesus, you don't even know what it was, do you?

Truth be told, I have no idea how to spell it .... not even good enough to give "spell checker" a shot.

Good enough to win 16 playoff games.

So better then what he did vs the Mavs? That's not realistic. The rest of the team has to play better ... and that the part that is not being improved during this off-season.

FromWayDowntown

07-14-2006, 04:33 PM

I'm moderately surprised that Mav fan hasn't turned to the old player-by-player comparison to further delude himself that he has nothing to worry about.

FromWayDowntown

07-14-2006, 04:35 PM

So better then what he did vs the Mavs? That's not realistic. The rest of the team has to play better ... and that the part that is not being improved during this off-season.

Yes, you're right. The Spurs have no chance at all in 2006-07 unless Tim Duncan averages 50 and 25.

:rolleyes

If you're trying to spark posting by presenting nothing by asinine takes, you're succeeding.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 04:39 PM

I'm moderately surprised that Mav fan hasn't turned to the old player-by-player comparison to further delude himself that he has nothing to worry about.
Is that a poster here (Mavs fan) or is that directed at me?

If toward me, I will respond :)

Player-by-player is fun (and would favor the Mavs :) ) but really I am B-ball fan that would like all Texas teams to do well, I live in the Dallas area so they are my favorate, but I hold no hard feeling for anyother team.

As for worry ... Amare returning to the Suns worries me (just a little). The Spurs worry me (They have a lot of heart and a young core ... just an old bench :) ) Possible injury to Dirk and one other Mavs starter worries me (always possible)

Other then that ... I don't worry much about the Mavs ... they are fine.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 04:44 PM

Yes, you're right. The Spurs have no chance at all in 2006-07 unless Tim Duncan averages 50 and 25.

If you're trying to spark posting by presenting nothing by asinine takes, you're succeeding.

I didn't post that ... you did.

I said that the rest of the team has to play better because Duncan is not realistcaly going to get MASSIVE numbers in every game.

Parker has to play better, Manu has to play better (and smarter) and the bench (what little there is of it) has to play better, better would be to find that player that slipped under the radar (like Diaw with the Suns)

doldrums

07-14-2006, 04:46 PM

hey guys, as a ny'er who has seen Butler play many times, there is a lot of upside there. A few games he looked t absolutely terrific, other games he didn't get many touches. The Knick announcers would always comment that he was a work in progress with a lot of upside potential(they also mentioned how the uneven line-ups hurt him). He is also a great leaper, I really like him, young and athletic.

Slinkyman

07-14-2006, 04:53 PM

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 04:55 PM

He is also a great leaper, I really like him, young and athletic.

I wonder how much of the announcer speak is company line.

If this is true then it sounds as though he maybe a Diop type player for the Spurs .... which is good, no matter what you all think of Diop :)

I am not sure that they can trust someone like that from the get go, but really, they have no choice.

For the record the scout report I saw on him said the same things but also said that he was foul prone ... nothing new there for a young player. I do worry that the Spurs depth at the position is not well suited for "foul prone"

Maybe he will learn more under Pop then Brown, who knows?

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 04:57 PM

doldrums

07-14-2006, 05:05 PM

He's light years ahead of Diop offensively, but that's not saying much. He can be foul prone. Won't be the blocker Diop is.

If they're both here, Elson will start and with any luck, Butler will develop and replace him.

agreed, but he can bring instant energy around the offensive net. Many times he appeared out of nowhere to slam home a rebound.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 05:05 PM

why do we need all stars at every position? Miami won this year with 2 great studs (really one great player one used to be great but still very good player) and a bunch of roll players like the lakers did in 2000-2002. We just need Bonner, Butler, Elson, Finley, Bruce and Horry to fill roles and let Tim, Manu and Tony be the studs.

Good point, the problem is that Finely, Bruce and Horry (And Williams, Barry and Oberto) are alot closer to the end of their careers the the middle of their careers.

Older = more likely to be injured

Horry and Barry are about done as it is. You need a bench player to step up and make a key play ... if not Finley, then who?

If there is an injury to Manu or Bowen and they miss time (likely with Manu, not so much with Bowen) and Finley moves in to start ... the bench then has nothing.

This team as-is has only Finley on the bench .. that is not enough for a championship team

Udrih, Vaughn, Finley, Williams, Horry, Barry

mabber

07-14-2006, 05:08 PM

He's light years ahead of Diop offensively, but that's not saying much. He can be foul prone. Won't be the blocker Diop is.

If they're both here, Elson will start and with any luck, Butler will develop and replace him.

I'm light years ahead of Diop offensively and I'm old & short :lol He's only good for 1-2 tip ins a game (and maybe 1-2 at the free throw line). He'll never amount to much on the offensive end. Now, MBenga has some offensive upside. He can hit a 12-15 jumpshot at a good %.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 05:10 PM

This team as-is has only Finley on the bench .. that is not enough for a championship teamGee, we didn't even have him when we won the championship the season before....

Cant_Be_Faded

07-14-2006, 05:12 PM

chumpdumper should hook us up with some good inside information i saiddd

talk to your inside scoops over on spurs report
we keep talking in circles

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 05:13 PM

:lol

Slinkyman

07-14-2006, 05:17 PM

Good point, the problem is that Finely, Bruce and Horry (And Williams, Barry and Oberto) are alot closer to the end of their careers the the middle of their careers.

Older = more likely to be injured

Horry and Barry are about done as it is. You need a bench player to step up and make a key play ... if not Finley, then who?

If there is an injury to Manu or Bowen and they miss time (likely with Manu, not so much with Bowen) and Finley moves in to start ... the bench then has nothing.

This team as-is has only Finley on the bench .. that is not enough for a championship team

Udrih, Vaughn, Finley, Williams, Horry, Barry

True, the bench is too old. That's really the only area of concern for me. Hopefully Williams, Oberto and/or Barry can be traded for some youth. The big key is for NY not to match butler's deal, If we can add Butler, Elson and Bonner while losing Rasho and Nazr to me that's a win. Butler and Bonner are both young guys who can contribute right away and give us energy off the bench. Trade for a wing who's young and athletic and we're set.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 05:21 PM

Gee, we didn't even have him when we won the championship the season before....

True .... you did have Rasho though :) ... sorry bad joke.

An example would be "Kerr for THREE"

I remember that ... I am sure you do too ... they dont have the dedicated shooter for one.

Winnipeg_Spur

07-14-2006, 05:26 PM

Since when were the Spurs lacking shooters? If anything that's where we have a surplus...

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 05:28 PM

True .... you did have Rasho though :) ... sorry bad joke.

An example would be "Kerr for THREE"

I remember that ... I am sure you do too ... they dont have the dedicated shooter for one.Kerr?

Was he making three pointers from the press table?

Do your homework before bringing this weak smack.

Please_dont_ban_me

07-14-2006, 05:28 PM

More like...

+Parker / Udrih / Vaughn
+Manu / Finley / Barry
+Bowen / Williams
+Duncan / Bonner / Horry
+Elson / Butler / Oberto

I like it.

Looks well rounded, stil very deep. Let's get to work.

Please_dont_ban_me

07-14-2006, 05:30 PM

Since when were the Spurs lacking shooters? If anything that's where we have a surplus...

I wouldn't go that far.

Finley's the best we have, Bowens good if he's on his spot and doesn't have to create the shot himself. Other then that, Parker's average...Manu's streaky. We don't have that sweet stroke outside guy like Kerr...or SJax...or what Barry should be.

Maybe Bonner helps with that, iuno.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 05:31 PM

If Beno learns to handle the press, you can count him too.

Please_dont_ban_me

07-14-2006, 05:34 PM

Vaughn should work wonders for Beno's self-confidence.

furry_spurry

07-14-2006, 05:41 PM

Bruce Bowen was interviewed at a Get Fit with Bruce event and said that he would not have expected when the summer started that the Spurs would lose both centers.

It seemed pretty apparent to everyone that Nazr was not interested in coming back to the Spurs- especially given what happend throughout the play-offs for him- it was worse for him than Rasho. Did they think Nazr would suddenly want to stay if he did not have to feel like he was competing for minutes with Rasho? Surely Rasho's trade was not a shock to anyone- and I don't believe the Spurs even made an offer to Nazr. He decided on Detroit while the Spurs were still thinking about Przybilla.

texasqb2

07-14-2006, 05:45 PM

you guys are so funny, last year we were a last second mistake away from going to the finals and whipping up on Miami. We lost Van Exel, Nazr, and Rasho-3 guys who never helped us in the playoffs anyway. We cleared up some cap for next summer and kept our nucleus while adding Bonner, Butler, Elson, and Vaughn. We didn't need a whole lot more, Phoenix lost Tim Thomas, Detroit lost Ben Wallace, Shaq is a year older, Dallas did not improve, so why is everyone so down in the dumps?

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 05:45 PM

I'm glad Nazr didn't come back. I just wish we had more of a plan when we got rid of Rasho.

furry_spurry

07-14-2006, 05:54 PM

I'm glad Nazr didn't come back. I just wish we had more of a plan when we got rid of Rasho.
Many people assumed the Spurs had a more surefire plan when they got rid of Rasho. Apparently, not. I think that is what is disappointing to some fans. They find it hard to fathom that the Spurs are at a point of possibly starting Elson at center on opening night. No matter how people want to spin it or talk the stats, he is a worse basketball player than both Nazr and Rasho. The idea of taking a step down in quality does not seem to be a good move, especially if it was done for merely the financial reasons that even Johnny Ludden admitted to. To say you know there is a good chance these guys won't be as good but that they are cheaper does not instill confidence that the priority is a championship.

Extra Stout

07-14-2006, 05:57 PM

Winnipeg_Spur

07-14-2006, 06:01 PM

I wouldn't go that far.

Finley's the best we have, Bowens good if he's on his spot and doesn't have to create the shot himself. Other then that, Parker's average...Manu's streaky. We don't have that sweet stroke outside guy like Kerr...or SJax...or what Barry should be.

Maybe Bonner helps with that, iuno.
Maybe we don't have a pure shooter (SJax wouldn't qualify btw, he's a 34% career 3 point shooter) but we've got enough capable ones that I really don't think it's a big position of need for us. If the Spurs got another swingman I'd much rather get a young, athletic defender than a pure shooter.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 06:03 PM

Eh, it doesn't matter that a player is better if he's not going to play.

furry_spurry

07-14-2006, 06:08 PM

Sorry if some of us just are not overjoyed at this group of big men--
Duncan / Bonner / Horry
Elson / Butler / Oberto

As for that list, after Duncan- I am most interested in Butler, but until he's actually a Spur, I'm not getting excited.

I think, also, people are disappointed because the Spurs got rid of their two centers and were then forced to focus the available resources on more big men, when the fans were hoping more for an athletic 3 and a better back-up PG. It would have been more expensive, obviously, but if you keep Rasho or re-sign Nazr, you then have the MLE to spend on those other needs.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 06:23 PM

I'm not overjoyed either, but personal feelings aside there's probably not going to be a huge decline in production from the center position.

Better backup PG? Beno just needs to stop dropping his purse.

Athletic long three? There are maybe two on the market, and one has an insane asking price.

Real improvements have to be made through trades. That was going to be the case no matter what.

mabber

07-14-2006, 06:24 PM

True, the bench is too old. That's really the only area of concern for me. Hopefully Williams, Oberto and/or Barry can be traded for some youth. The big key is for NY not to match butler's deal, If we can add Butler, Elson and Bonner while losing Rasho and Nazr to me that's a win. Butler and Bonner are both young guys who can contribute right away and give us energy off the bench. Trade for a wing who's young and athletic and we're set.

What was the consensus on Barry's performance last season (regular season & playoffs)? All I know is he scares the shit out of me when he has an open 3 pointer. I think the Mavs did a decent job during their playoff series with Spurs of closing out on his 3 point shot for the most part. I know he couldn't guard Stack and was often matched up with him.

mabber

07-14-2006, 06:29 PM

More like...

+Parker / Udrih / Vaughn
+Manu / Finley / Barry
+Bowen / Williams
+Duncan / Bonner / Horry
+Elson / Butler / Oberto

I like it.

Looks well rounded, stil very deep. Let's get to work.

Looks good to me. My only concern would be the quality of the depth. I don't think the Spurs could handle injuries to the top 3-4 players for a long period of time. You'd be f..ked if Parker got hurt for any length of time.

furry_spurry

07-14-2006, 06:35 PM

Real improvements have to be made through trades. That was going to be the case no matter what.
Yeah- but the Rasho trade was for $$- not improvement- no matter how much people try to sell me on Bonner- and I just don't see how much improvement will be made over dangling Barry and Williams.

As a side note- every time that I type Barry and Williams- which I feel I have typed a thousand times- I can't help it:
http://www.brandymd.com/images/barry.jpg

Extra Stout

07-14-2006, 06:37 PM

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 06:39 PM

Yeah- but the Rasho trade was for $$- not improvement- no matter how much people try to sell me on BonnerSure enough. There is a fair chance we can get the same performance for less though. That's the bottom line.
I just don't see how much improvement will be made over dangling Barry and Williams.I don't think we will be limiting our offers to those two.
As a side note- every time that I type Barry and Williams- which I feel I have typed a thousand times- I can't help it:The picture I posted of him was better.

Extra Stout

07-14-2006, 06:40 PM

If the Knicks match Butler, the Spurs will have no frontcourt players other than Tim Duncan who aren't either at least 35 years of age, a journeyman scrub, or an outright piece of crap.

He will have absolutely zero help inside.

Extra Stout

07-14-2006, 06:41 PM

BTW, if the Spurs can get something of value back for Bowen, they should trade him.

picnroll

07-14-2006, 06:47 PM

If Spurs get Butler they'll be better at center than last year. If they sign Woods they'll be better at the swing positon than last year. If they sign a deadman to replace NVE they'll be better than last year. All possible Isiah willing. Butler and Woods will take the Spurs past the Mavs without breaking a sweat.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

07-14-2006, 08:10 PM

All these people claiming that the team is crap and that the FO don't know what they are doing should outline a PLAUSIBLE scenario that the Spurs have missed out on whereby we significantly increase our talent level.

Joel Pryz? C'mon, he's another Rasho with a bit more rebounding. Wells/Harrington? Not ever going to happen. The simple fact is that there isn't much on offer this year for us to do that would vault the team to favourite status (and who wants to be favourites anyway?).

Winning championships is primarily about luck with injuries and chemistry. If the current roster gels like they did in 2005, it's as good as any other Spurs roster.

Remember 2005? We played 7-deep the entire playoffs because Pop unly trusted 7 of his players, yet it worked out.

Remember 2003? What was so much better then than what we have now? We got surprising contributions from castoffs like Kerr in that championship run, otherwise we wouldn't have made it. Oh, and Tony and Manu were both role players, not stars.

Give the team a chance to show you what it is capable of before you start assigning when it's going out of the playoffs, please! :rolleyes

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 08:14 PM

BTW, if the Spurs can get something of value back for Bowen, they should trade him.

At this point, they should start shopping Parker.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

07-14-2006, 08:16 PM

BTW, if the Spurs can get something of value back for Bowen, they should trade him.

And right there you show your ignorance. Why the hell would we trade Bowen??? He's on a small contract, is the best defender of 1-3s in the league, and everyone loves him. He is the glue guy on this team.

But no, let's trade him!

You just shot your credibility out yer arse.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 08:19 PM

I don't think the Spurs could handle injuries to the top 3-4 players for a long period of time. You'd be f..ked if Parker got hurt for any length of time.

The loss of Bowen or Manu can be offset for a limited time by Finley, but your right a Parker injury would be devistating

Finley's the best we have, Bowens good if he's on his spot and doesn't have to create the shot himself. Other then that, Parker's average...Manu's streaky. We don't have that sweet stroke outside guy like Kerr...or SJax...or what Barry should be.

Maybe Bonner helps with that, iuno.

He does have long range, and it is what he does best ... but he hasn't made a name doing it (Unlike Kerr)

All I know is he scares the shit out of me when he has an open 3 pointer.
And that was the key to the Mavs win, "No doubles of Duncan and make the others beat us"

Teams need that pure shooter

Butler and Woods will take the Spurs past the Mavs without breaking a sweat.

Can Butler play defense on Howard? If not, then they will have the same problem as last year. When the Mavs play small these are the match-ups

Harris - Parker
Terry - Manu
Howard - ????
Dirk - Bowen
Diop - Duncan

If you put a center on the floor he has to guard Howard. Can Butler guard a fast SF?

RuffnReadyOzStyle

07-14-2006, 08:20 PM

At this point, they should start shopping Parker.

And Mr Body, you just shot yours.

Why would we trade Parker? A 24yo PG who was a first time all-star last year, on a very reasonable contract for the next 5 years, who knows the Spurs inside out, and was the Spurs' best player last year. Oh, and whose jumpshot is starting to look markedly improved.

Yeah, let's trade him for Stephon Marbury! :rolleyes

Pulease, go jump off the cliff already, these ideas are not helping anyone.

Please_dont_ban_me

07-14-2006, 08:20 PM

Looks good to me. My only concern would be the quality of the depth. I don't think the Spurs could handle injuries to the top 3-4 players for a long period of time. You'd be f..ked if Parker got hurt for any length of time.

Udrih could keep us afloat if Parker was injured...as long as it's not a big game, or a playoff game. :D

Finley could fill in Manu for an extended period of time.

My concern is if Duncan goes down. In the past Rasho/Nazr played better when Timmy was injured or on the bench. But where would go for our low post punch now? Not Elson...I love his game but he's filling a role and offense firepower isn't one of them. I guess you have to hope Jackie Butler is the answer.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 08:21 PM

LMAO - he pulled out the matchup list in July!

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 08:22 PM

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 08:35 PM

LMAO - he pulled out the matchup list in July!

I didn't say who was better, I mearly pointed out the reason that you want an athletic SF. A center will not see the floor when playing the Mavs, signing a center does not make this team more able to beat the Mavs.

Signing a SF would go along way. that gap in the "match-up" will be there ... right now it will be filled by either Finley or Barry, I am sure that will not make many of you happy ... but its the truth.

The one team that you couldn't beat last year didn't loss any real pieces, what they will throw at you has not changed and without signing a SF that can guard Howard, what you will do to stop it has not changed.

Now what Butler will do is inable you to match-up Duncan a little better as at 6-10 he is more a PF then C. You could move Duncan to guard either the PF or C position without worrying about Butler being "to slow" for PFs

But that doesn't address the problem with facing the team that ended your season this past year.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

07-14-2006, 08:37 PM

All these people claiming that the team is crap and that the FO don't know what they are doing should outline a PLAUSIBLE scenario that the Spurs have missed out on whereby we significantly increase our talent level.

Body, fair enough that you were joking. Once Tim has faded significantly, I could see that scenario playing out too... maybe. But that's a long way off.

C'mon naysayers, where are these PLAUSIBLE scenarios that would have so improved our roster???

Please outline them, I am interested.

If there was no salary cap, life would be easy. We could have a lineup of:

Parker/Banks/Udrih
Manu/Finley/Salmons
Bowen/Wells/Williams
Duncan/Gooden/Horry
Wallace/Pryzbilla/Oberto

But, unfortunately, THERE IS A CAP and we have to abide by it.

Strangely enough, I don't think the team above would've worked that well anyway. Banks and Wells would whinge about pt, Gooden is much better starting than off the bench, none of our centres can score a lick, and there's not a huge quantity of good 3-pt shooting there.

We are Butler and a shooter away from having a well balanced roster this year (like it or not, looks like Williams is our long defensive backup 3 for a year while we find a young guy, and I don't mind that too much).

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 08:40 PM

Meh, we'll try Elson on Dirk and Bowen on Howard and see what happens.

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 08:43 PM

RROS-- If we get Butler and manage a trade for a difference-making SF, then it'll be a successful offseason (and I'll get over my Jak-heartbreak). That SF has to be better than Rasual Butler.

strangeweather

07-14-2006, 08:44 PM

He might develop a good jumpshot, but he'll never be more than an adequate floor general.
Why do you say that?

At 24, Chauncey Billups was a below-average floor general, and Nash was nothing to write home about at that age either. That's a skill that a lot of PGs seem to pick up over time.

There's no guarantee that Parker will be one of them, but I can't see why you'd write him off already.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 08:46 PM

You want a signing :)

Adrian Griffen. With the Mavs signing of Buckner ... Griffen should be on the market .... he can guard Howard in that line-up

Harris - Parker
Terry - Manu
Howard - Griffen
Dirk - Bowen
Diop - Duncan

That looks alot better then putting a center on Howard, though you loose some offence, you gain defence.

Meh, we'll try Elson on Dirk and Bowen on Howard and see what happens.

OUCH, how long before Elton fouls out?

strangeweather

07-14-2006, 08:46 PM

Meh, we'll try Elson on Dirk and Bowen on Howard and see what happens.
Elson may look pretty good next year if he can cover Dirk even semi-decently.

Of course, we'll still have to see if he really can.

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 08:51 PM

Why do you say that?

At 24, Chauncey Billups was a below-average floor general, and Nash was nothing to write home about at that age either. That's a skill that a lot of PGs seem to pick up over time.

There's no guarantee that Parker will be one of them, but I can't see why you'd write him off already.

I'll enjoy being wrong, but he has a selfish streak and tunnel vision/lack of peripheral vision in 7/10 plays. I concede it may simply be youthful exuberance. But even Billups isn't a natural playmaker - he's Mr. Big Shot, not Mr. Big Pass. It's not natural to these guys like it is for the Kidds, Stocktons, and Pauls of the world.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 08:57 PM

That is what confuses me about the moves that the Spurs are making. It was not the match-up with Howard that ended the Spurs season, it was creating the match-up that was the problem.

With that one move (moving Harris into a starter position) the Mavs took the Spurs out of there comfert zone and what they did all season, they forced the Spurs to remove their center .... As weak as Nazr and Rasho were they did contribute and they did take a starters spot and minutes.

That move forced another SF into the game instead of coming off the bench, and messed up the player rotations.

Howard didn't kill the Spurs, the match-up problem did and the Spurs moves to this point have not address that at all.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 08:59 PM

OUCH, how long before Elton fouls out?He's stayed in Mav games before. I'm not overly worried. We have plenty of people to throw at him.

furry_spurry

07-14-2006, 09:09 PM

The picture I posted of him was better.
I missed that. :)

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 09:09 PM

Butler is a center, Bonner won't start, and Williams is younger than Bowen. If Butler turns out to be remotely decent the Spurs will be flirting with 60 wins again. If the Spurs change up their game plan and try something they've never done before as soon as the playoffs start they will get their asses kicked again.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 09:11 PM

He's stayed in Mav games before. I'm not overly worried. We have plenty of people to throw at him.

This tactic works against Shaq, Wallace and to a lesser degree Duncan, but Dirk hits his FTs ... it could get ugly.

I have a question - On a team with all-world defence Bowen and Duncan ... why would you put Elson on Dirk?

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 09:18 PM

I'm not talking hacking Dirk, just rotating defenders.

Elson is one of many options. One that might get a board every so often. In the real world outside of paper matchups this is what happens.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 09:21 PM

Please_dont_ban_me

07-14-2006, 09:25 PM

I'm half-assed joking.

However, I do think Parker will be traded eventually, when his value is at a peak. I don't think he'll ever be much more than he is right now - an excellent scorer and ball-handler. He might develop a good jumpshot, but he'll never be more than an adequate floor general. I could see them trading him in three years or so once he plateaus, in order to get someone who can truly orchestrate an offense plus some other young talent. This would match the decline of Manu and Duncan as playmakers, as they age.

But no, not right now. I was kidding.

Slow your role, big boy.

Him adding a jumpshot would be a HUGE difference to his game from what it is now. Also, you talk about trading him for a 'adequate floor general' but what exactly will he be orchestrating?

This team IS tony parker 5-10 years from now. Without him, it'll be a PG leading scrubs.

Please_dont_ban_me

07-14-2006, 09:26 PM

Is there any reason Elson can't do for us what Haslem did for the Heat?

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 09:28 PM

Is there any reason Elson can't do for us what Haslem did for the Heat?
Do you mean what Haslem actually did, or what Haslem is given credit for doing?

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 09:28 PM

I'm not talking hacking Dirk, just rotating defenders.

Elson is one of many options. One that might get a board every so often. In the real world outside of paper matchups this is what happens.

OK, that's cool .... kind of like when sometimes Howard guards Duncan .... i can see that.

I don't think that is a solution though, Dirk is more of a threat then Howard. Its a tough problem to solve because Duncan can't play Dirk. I don't see anything that the Spurs can do, right now, to keep their center on the court vs the Mavs without Dirk Killing them. Other then Duncan how many of the big men are known for their defense?

They will be forced to put Bowen on him ... or Duncan

The Spurs need to sign a SF to guard Howard. If they do that, they play their game and win. If they don't, the Mavs force the switch to small ball

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 09:29 PM

Slow your role, big boy.

Him adding a jumpshot would be a HUGE difference to his game from what it is now. Also, you talk about trading him for a 'adequate floor general' but what exactly will he be orchestrating?

This team IS tony parker 5-10 years from now. Without him, it'll be a PG leading scrubs.

I'm projecting, naturally. Parker leading scrubs will be a lottery team every single year. I can see trading him for value as Manu and Duncan are about to ride into the sunset. He'd have a lot of value -- replaceable value. He's not going to be pushing a team into the playoffs by himself, so why not restock, help those two guys out a couple last years, and look to the future?

I would absolutely not be stunned to see this happen. This is not 'Parker's team' once Duncan retires.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 09:32 PM

OK, that's cool .... kind of like when sometimes Howard guards Duncan .... i can see that.

I don't think that is a solution though, Dirk is more of a threat then Howard. Its a tough problem to solve because Duncan can't play Dirk. I don't see anything that the Spurs can do, right now, to keep their center on the court vs the Mavs without Dirk Killing them. Other then Duncan how many of the big men are known for their defense?

They will be forced to put Bowen on him ... or Duncan

The Spurs need to sign a SF to guard Howard. If they do that, they play their game and win. If they don't, the Mavs force the switch to small ballIf we sign a SF to guard Howard and have Bowen on Dirk, that's small ball.

Do you even think about things before you type?
I don't see anything that the Spurs can doI have never met a Mavfan on these boards who ever gave the Spurs any chance of ever winning any game against the Mavs.

Never.

Please_dont_ban_me

07-14-2006, 09:34 PM

I'm projecting, naturally. Parker leading scrubs will be a lottery team every single year. I can see trading him for value as Manu and Duncan are about to ride into the sunset. He'd have a lot of value -- replaceable value. He's not going to be pushing a team into the playoffs by himself, so why not restock, help those two guys out a couple last years, and look to the future?

I would absolutely not be stunned to see this happen. This is not 'Parker's team' once Duncan retires.

I'm not against trading Parker.

But you made it sound like you would let him go for a "floor general" type Point Guard. I would let him go for a reliable big, then pursue a "floor general" through other teams.

I'm not sure how good John Stockton would be on the hawks. But I bet if you stick Tony Parker on them they win a few games. So I would trade Parker for a Malone, then go after a Stockton via free-agency or the draft...whatever.

Please_dont_ban_me

07-14-2006, 09:34 PM

Do you mean what Haslem actually did, or what Haslem is given credit for doing?

I hate to pull the "well if you actually watched the series..." card, but honestly if you did watch it you saw what Haslem did. Maybe not the stats, but his physical play really bothered Dirk.

Mr. Body

07-14-2006, 09:37 PM

I'm not against trading Parker.

But you made it sound like you would let him go for a "floor general" type Point Guard. I would let him go for a reliable big, then pursue a "floor general" through other teams.

I'm not sure how good John Stockton would be on the hawks. But I bet if you stick Tony Parker on them they win a few games. So I would trade Parker for a Malone, then go after a Stockton via free-agency or the draft...whatever.

Well, we'll see. Chris Paul's contract comes up in a few years and I don't see him sticking in New Orleans (bad cap management this year). I could see the Spurs do a S&T and the Hornets grabbing Parker. That sort of thing. Highly speculative, but... it doesn't really matter at this point. I'm very happy with Parker (mostly).

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 09:44 PM

Is there any reason Elson can't do for us what Haslem did for the Heat?

Can a 30yr old center (with two years in the league) do the same job on Dirk as a young athletic PF ... I guess the technical anser is "Yes, it is possable"

Reality is a different though.

Not many euro-players are known for their spectacular defense (he has player 4yrs in Euro and 2 in NBA)

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 09:46 PM

Eh, we have decent luck with getting tall guys to play good D -- even guys with no history of it like Hedo and Ferry. If Elson is coachable he might work out pretty well.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 09:47 PM

I hate to pull the "well if you actually watched the series..." card, but honestly if you did watch it you saw what Haslem did. Maybe not the stats, but his physical play really bothered Dirk.
Unfortunately the "if you actually watched" card is about all you've got, because Dirk was about the same against the Heat as he was against the Spurs. Haslem had a shot blocker behind him. Had Bowen that luxury he could have actually spent all his time on Dirk instead of trying to stop the guards that were able to parade unmolested to the rim all series.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 09:50 PM

Chris Paul's contract comes up in a few years and I don't see him sticking in New Orleans (bad cap management this year).

He is signed till the 09-10 season. I would not overlook the Hornets. they have Cap to burn; 30M salary this next season, and 2.5M in salary for the following year, they have no commited money after that (Paul has several years of team options) They will be looking to sign all the big players.

Please_dont_ban_me

07-14-2006, 09:50 PM

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 09:54 PM

I'm not sure how good John Stockton would be on the hawks. But I bet if you stick Tony Parker on them they win a few games.

Stockton had one of the sweetest shots of any guard to play the game ... and he knew when to shoot and when to pass

RuffnReadyOzStyle

07-14-2006, 09:54 PM

RROS-- If we get Butler and manage a trade for a difference-making SF, then it'll be a successful offseason (and I'll get over my Jak-heartbreak). That SF has to be better than Rasual Butler.

Jumaine Jones would also be nice from a trade.

Agreed, Mr Body. Fingers crossed.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 09:55 PM

So we agree on fuck small ball.

And Dirk wasn't the same against the Heat. Haslem wore him down, against us he'd just pull up and shoot over Bowen, Finley, Manu and at times yes...Tony parker.
You and I have to agree that the problem with the above is anyone NOT named Bowen covering Dirk. Haslem wore him down because he didn't have to leave him. Dirk's stats are virtually identical for both series. Imagine if Bowen had gotten to stay on him. Imagine if the Spurs had been able to actually stop someone from scoring. Is the dream of "defense first" so foggy that nobody remembers how successful it was?

Because I DAMN sure remember what a fucking trainwreck it was to completely change the rotation as soon as the playoffs started.

Winnipeg_Spur

07-14-2006, 09:55 PM

Hopefully since Dallas is paying Buckner all that money they'll play him and we can stick a big on him for some minutes, if need be.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 09:57 PM

Hopefully since Dallas is paying Buckner all that money they'll play him and we can stick a big on him for some minutes, if need be.
Buckner can shoot from the outside.

When did the Spurs become a team that has to make adjustments for other teams rather than forcing other teams to adjust to them?

Please_dont_ban_me

07-14-2006, 09:58 PM

You and I have to agree that the problem with the above is anyone NOT named Bowen covering Dirk. Haslem wore him down because he didn't have to leave him. Dirk's stats are virtually identical for both series. Imagine if Bowen had gotten to stay on him. Imagine if the Spurs had been able to actually stop someone from scoring. Is the dream of "defense first" so foggy that nobody remembers how successful it was?

I think the hard-on Pop got from being able to beat the opponent at there own game just clouded his judgement.

Bowen would defend Dirk as well if not better than Haslem. Imagine that funnel defense this year with Timmy and Elson right there to meet/greet Dirk. :D I pray Pop's learned his lesson.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 10:01 PM

You all know what the Mavs line-up will be vs the Spurs

Harris
Terry
Howard
Dirk
Diop

Bowen has to cover Dirk, Duncan has to cover Diop and that leaves the Spurs center to guard Howard ... or get him off the floor for a SF.

They need to sign a SF

If we get Butler and manage a trade for a difference-making SF, then it'll be a successful offseason (and I'll get over my Jak-heartbreak). That SF has to be better than Rasual Butler.

This is VERY TRUE

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:01 PM

I think the hard-on Pop got from being able to beat the opponent at there own game just clouded his judgement.

Bowen would defend Dirk as well if not better than Haslem. Imagine that funnel defense this year with Timmy and Elson right there to meet/greet Dirk. :D I pray Pop's learned his lesson.
Imagine the funnel defense last year with Timmy and Rasho there to meet Dirk. If five games of layup lines didn't convince him, he's lost his mind. My wife actually suggested during the series that Pop was doing something nice for AJ. That's as close to a sensible explanation as anything I've been able to come up with.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 10:04 PM

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:06 PM

You all know what the Mavs line-up will be vs the Spurs

Harris
Terry
Howard
Dirk
Diop

Bowen has to cover Dirk, Duncan has to cover Diop and that leaves the Spurs center to guard Howard ... or get him off the floor for a SF.

Obviously that's what Pop thought. Of course, he got his ass handed to him. Since Howard and Harris did all their scoring in the paint a Spurs center could have defended them quite easily. There's no rule saying the center has to chase them around.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:09 PM

All the talk of Bowen on Dirk is not the problem ... Its who the center has to play on defense when your SF plays the PF and your PF plays the C

There just are not many centers in the league that can guard a young athletic SF (like Howard)
And they don't have to. The Spurs defensive philosophy is to funnel dribblers to the shot blockers. It's always been that way. Howard is not the most athletic SF the Spurs have faced. Howard is not a great jump shooter, and he could not possibly have gotten enough shots off to do more damage to the Spurs than the lack of a shot blocker did. It was a stupid adjustment, and it blew up in the Spurs' face. As a Mavs fan, you'd better pray that my signature is the truth.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 10:09 PM

Damn, why are Spurfans and Mavfans all acting like we got swept and lost by 50 each game?

Winnipeg_Spur

07-14-2006, 10:11 PM

Buckner can shoot from the outside.
As long as he doesn't penetrate the Spurs could get away with a big on him. In 05 against the Suns Duncan was actually matching up with Richardson for much of the game and he had range too.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:12 PM

Damn, why are Spurfans and Mavfans all acting like we got swept and lost by 50 each game?
I don't understand how anyone thinks the Spurs could have done worse with Rasho and Nazr in the game. The Spurs were victimized in the paint, committed a ton of fouls, couldn't get an open three pointer off and still managed to lose in overtime of game 7. All I'm saying is a minute or two of having two shot blockers in the game would have probably tipped the scales.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 10:12 PM

The only thing that the Spurs can do to get out of this predictament with the center trying to play Howard is this

POST UP THE MAVS SMALL GUARDS

Parker on Harris and Manu on Terry

They have to punish the Mavs guards to the point where they take one of them out as a defensive substitution. I know that it is not in Parker's or Manu's game to do this, but it is the only way.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 10:13 PM

Shit. Manu keeping his hands to himself one play would've probably tipped the scales.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:13 PM

As long as he doesn't penetrate the Spurs could get away with a big on him. In 05 against the Suns Duncan was actually matching up with Richardson for much of the game and he had range too.
If the Spurs put Duncan out on an island to be the lone shot blocker Buckner would be stupid not to penetrate.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:14 PM

Shit. Manu keeping his hands to himself one play would've probably tipped the scales.
Right. So that extra rebound or shot block might have come in handy by then.

Spurologist

07-14-2006, 10:14 PM

Buckner can shoot from the outside.

:lmao

You are certainly living up to your name with that statement.

Buckner is an overrated, media-hyped, bowen-wanna-be. He is a decent shooter at best.

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 10:18 PM

Right. So that extra rebound or shot block might have come in handy by then.What? We were in a position to win with 23 seconds left and blew it. End of story.

I have never seen a group of fans so snakebit by a loss. We've been through much worse.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:18 PM

:lmao

You are certainly living up to your name with that statement.

Buckner is an overrated, media-hyped, bowen-wanna-be. He is a decent shooter at best.
Okay, Devin Harris is a way better outside shooter than Buckner is. You win. Thanks for showing me the light. :lol

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 10:20 PM

And they don't have to. The Spurs defensive philosophy is to funnel dribblers to the shot blockers. It's always been that way.

If howard is standing outside the tree point line ... where does that leave the Spurs center? If he comes out, Howard blows by him ... if he doesn't its an open look.

This is why the Spurs went small .... Pop knew that Howard was too much for Nazr and Rasho and that the Mavs are not afread to let him shoot the open look.

If you think that leaving the third best scorer on the Mavs is a good plan ..... well, its not ... you have to cover him ... somehow.

What thety did was try to cover him with Finley and Barry and at times Bowen when Duncan switched to Dirk.

Its a problem that cannot be solved with a center on the floor (unless he has freakist athletisim ... Amare comes to mind)

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:22 PM

What? We were in a position to win with 23 seconds left and blew it. End of story.

I have never seen a group of fans so snakebit by a loss. We've been through much worse.
It's not a loss. It's four losses. It's called a series. It never should have come down to blaming Manu for a stupid foul. I've never seen anything worse as a Spurs fan but I've only been a fan since 1990. Rodman quitting wasn't worse. The entire team quitting wasn't worse.

Winnipeg_Spur

07-14-2006, 10:22 PM

If the Spurs put Duncan out on an island to be the lone shot blocker Buckner would be stupid not to penetrate.
If you can make defensive adjustments that lead to Greg Buckner shooting and penetrating against a defense with 2 bigs in there, then I'll my chances with that. :p

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 10:23 PM

snake

bit

Mavs own joo.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:24 PM

If howard is standing outside the tree point line ... where does that leave the Spurs center? If he comes out, Howard blows by him ... if he doesn't its an open look.

Okay, except that you can run Harris' man at Josh Howard and I'll let Devin Harris shoot wide open threes all fucking day, bro. The Spurs can rotate on three point shooting teams. The 2005 Suns were better shooters with better interior players.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:26 PM

If you can make defensive adjustments that lead to Greg Buckner shooting and penetrating against a defense with 2 bigs in there, then I'll my chances with that. :p
If the Spurs keep two bigs in there, I'll take my chances. If the Spurs have Finley or Horry in there as a shot blocker, I don't need to watch the game to know the outcome.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:26 PM

snake

bit

Mavs own joo.
Too bad I knew it about ten minutes into game 3.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 10:33 PM

Okay, except that you can run Harris' man at Josh Howard and I'll let Devin Harris shoot wide open threes all fucking day, bro.

He won't shoot (Terry would, he wouldn't), he would drive to about 10ft and shoot a open jumper .... or go for the foul call at the rim

Or even worst as soon as Howard gets it both him and Harris break for the rim leaving the defender in no mans land ... I guess the bigs could try for the shot block, but on which player Howard coming un-obstucted or Harris coming un-obstructed?

One player cannot cover two .... if he tries he ends up covering neither.

This would be the Lay-up drill you didn't want to see.

Spurologist

07-14-2006, 10:33 PM

Okay, Devin Harris is a way better outside shooter than Buckner is. You win. Thanks for showing me the light. :lol

who said anything about Devin Harris. He is a choke-shooter, meaning the higher/creater the occasion, the more he starts creating noise polution by clanking the rims. Not an ideal situation for a shooter.

Buckner, on the other hand just sucks ass. A good defender, but that shot needs work. On second thought, even Cubie's money couldn't fix that disaster. He's one of those goodform-bad result type shooters. Mr. 4-year-Chicago Bull Benny Wallace knows all about that. But hey, Buckner is a shooter, so he's got to let those PRAYERS fly.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:38 PM

He won't shoot (Terry would, he wouldn't), he would drive to about 10ft and shoot a open jumper .... or go for the foul call at the rim

Or even worst as soon as Howard gets it both him and Harris break for the rim leaving the defender in no mans land ... I guess the bigs could try for the shot block, but on which player Howard coming un-obstucted or Harris coming un-obstructed?

One player cannot cover two .... if he tries he ends up covering neither.

This would be the Lay-up drill you didn't want to see.
:lol Oh my God. Maybe all five Mavericks could run to the rim at the exact same time. Man, then they would score every time.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 10:40 PM

Or even worst as soon as Howard gets it both him and Harris break for the rim leaving the defender in no mans land ... I guess the bigs could try for the shot block, but on which player Howard coming un-obstucted or Harris coming un-obstructed?

Wow ... quoting my own post .... let me laugh for a second

Alright

I actually think that this happened in the games. Only they had Manu as the defender ... he didn't do too bad (quick hands) He got some steals as the two (Harris and Howard) went by him.

Maybe it could work long term .... who knows

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 10:43 PM

Howard is a very good with "back cuts" and Harris is a penitrator ... not a shooter

Oh my God. Maybe all five Mavericks could run to the rim at the exact same time. Man, then they would score every time.

That would be a blast to watch ... the game would last forever with all the foul calls :)

Spurologist

07-14-2006, 10:43 PM

Wow ... quoting my own post .... let me laugh for a second

Alright

I actually think that this happened in the games. Only they had Manu as the defender ... he didn't do too bad (quick hands) He got some steals as the two (Harris and Howard) went by him.

Maybe it could work long term .... who knows

I have been trying to research for hours what Dalhoop means. It is definately not synonymous with intellect.

SCdac

07-14-2006, 10:44 PM

The answer is finding PF's/C's who can guard Dirk, or at least turn him into more of the jumpshooter that he is. Thats something our "smalls" could never do and will never do, Dirk is going to drive all day against them, esp if he's getting rewarded by the zebras. And these PF's/C's dont have to be "freakishly athletic" and they dont have to be "lockdown defenders", they just have to be able to roam out to the perimeter, body Dirk up a bit, and keep him from consistently getting to the paint, MAKING him shoot jumpers. Let him get his shot off, he's not going to win the game himself. We then move Bowen to Howard and we're back to playing our normal lineup. Sure Bowen guards Dirk best, but if he doesnt have to for us to win, he shouldnt.

We turn the Mavs into a jumpshooting team, like the Heat did (particulary in game 6), and we have a much better chance of winning (like another poster said earlier). That smallball crap plays right into their hands.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:44 PM

Wow ... quoting my own post .... let me laugh for a second

Alright

I actually think that this happened in the games. Only they had Manu as the defender ... he didn't do too bad (quick hands) He got some steals as the two (Harris and Howard) went by him.

Maybe it could work long term .... who knows
It might have some success, but having two shot blockers behind you covers a multitude of sins. I'll do everyone a favor and end on that, as most everybody is clear on my position. Like CD suggested, time to start getting over it.

Obstructed_View

07-14-2006, 10:45 PM

I have been trying to research for hours what Dalhoop means. It is definately not synonymous with intellect.
He knows a hell of a lot more about basketball than you do.

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 10:45 PM

It is definately not synonymous with intellect.

Hey now ... I try to avoid cut-downs.

That was a first for me though ... maybe I will make it my signature "quoting myself" .... Sorry ... too funny :)

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 10:51 PM

The answer is finding PF's/C's who can guard Dirk, or at least turn him into more of the jumpshooter that he is.

This would work, as it is putting Bowen on Dirk that causes the problem in the first place. As a matter of fact if All-Defense Team Tim Duncan could find the skill to play Dirk on defense they would be able to put Bowen on Howard and most likely win.

God knows why they haven't tried that .. makes sense to me. they wouldn't need the athletic SF then :)

jman3000

07-14-2006, 10:54 PM

For as great as Tim is on defense he's not built to guard quick big men ... he does his damage against bigger, more methodical players and as a help defender. Making him guard a perimeter oriented big man would wreak havoc with the interior defense.

Spurologist

07-14-2006, 10:56 PM

He knows a hell of a lot more about basketball than you do.

Your view-point is always appreciated. How it is even a view is beyond me, but I lilke you ST name though.

Hey now ... I try to avoid cut-downs.

That was a first for me though ... maybe I will make it my signature "quoting myself" .... Sorry ... too funny :)

Cut-downs are part of ST preamble. I have just had vast experiences with Mav trolls. That is all. If you don't become/are one, then you will do fine. They seems to have all disappeared after the finals. hmmmmm interesting. Fairweather times I guess

And I quote myself all the time. Mostly to present a view that if clearly unobstructed if you know what I mean

Winnipeg_Spur

07-14-2006, 10:57 PM

This would work, as it is putting Bowen on Dirk that causes the problem in the first place. As a matter of fact if All-Defense Team Tim Duncan could find the skill to play Dirk on defense they would be able to put Bowen on Howard and most likely win.

God knows why they haven't tried that .. makes sense to me. they wouldn't need the athletic SF then :)
They've done that in the past, but Tim's mobility was compromised this year and perhaps more importantly Dirk became much more aggressive taking the ball to the hoop and drawing fouls. In the past he tended to settle for more Js so Duncan could do a decent job hanging with him, but this year Dirk would've driven it at him at will and probably got him into foul trouble.

I think it could still be a decent option, but I'd save it for later in the game and only try it if Duncan had a few fouls he could afford to give.

phxspurfan

07-14-2006, 10:57 PM

http://www.azcentral.com/sports/suns/articles/0714suns0714.html

"Devean George and Jumaine Jones head the list of free agents Phoenix likes, as well as Marcus Banks, Chucky Atkins, Jannero Pargo, Tony Delk, Marko Jaric, Rasual Butler and Matt Barnes. Even with House, the Suns will add a true point guard."

youre telling me spurs couldnt wait to get ANY of these guys (instead of vaughn)? :[ [ [ [ [ [

ChumpDumper

07-14-2006, 10:59 PM

Damn the Suns are going to have 24 players!

What depth!

Spurologist

07-14-2006, 11:02 PM

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 11:02 PM

Devean George and Jumaine Jones head the list of free agents Phoenix likes, as well as Marcus Banks, Chucky Atkins, Jannero Pargo, Tony Delk, Marko Jaric, Rasual Butler and Matt Barnes. Even with House, the Suns will add a true point guard."
Sheesh, are they going to sign all of them? I guess that would fix their bench problem :)

Dalhoop

07-14-2006, 11:04 PM

You'll must be on High Speed .... all I have is slow ass dial up :(

mabber

07-15-2006, 07:57 AM

Jump shooting teams don't win championships. Up until this year, the Spurs defense forced teams into becoming jump shooting teams. The Miami Heat won the title by forcing the Mavericks into being a jump shooting team.

Yeah they did. Not sure where the Mav team that beat the Spurs went to in the finals. :depressed

mabber

07-15-2006, 08:04 AM

Unfortunately the "if you actually watched" card is about all you've got, because Dirk was about the same against the Heat as he was against the Spurs. Haslem had a shot blocker behind him. Had Bowen that luxury he could have actually spent all his time on Dirk instead of trying to stop the guards that were able to parade unmolested to the rim all series.

Very true about the shotblocker being behind Haslem (especially when Zo was on the floor) but Haslem bothered Dirk more than Bowen did mostly cuz he got up a little bit higher to challenge his shots. But yes, if Bowen didn't have to help trying to stop the guards he'd have been able to spend more time on Dirk. Also, Dirk was getting more calls in the Spurs series than he was in the Heat series. The refs really let them play in the finals (outside of not being able to breath on Wade). The Spurs series was called much more tightly but I don't have to tell you that.

mabber

07-15-2006, 08:07 AM

Hopefully since Dallas is paying Buckner all that money they'll play him and we can stick a big on him for some minutes, if need be.

They won't play him as much against the Spurs unless one of your big man acquisitions can defend the rim against their quick guards. There's no point in not playing Harris & Terry together against the Spurs if Duncan is the biggest guy in the lineup.

mabber

07-15-2006, 08:11 AM

Shit. Manu keeping his hands to himself one play would've probably tipped the scales.

Yep, as much as it felt like the Mavs controlled the series and the tempo of the play...if Manu hadn't fucked up on that one play the Spurs would have still won. I attribute that to the Spurs being a championship team and somehow finding a way to win when they probably shouldn't IMO. I think they'll lose some of that edge against the Mavs going forward though.

mabber

07-15-2006, 08:14 AM

If you can make defensive adjustments that lead to Greg Buckner shooting and penetrating against a defense with 2 bigs in there, then I'll my chances with that. :p

You guys do know that Buckner may not even start don't you? If Harris continues to progress like he's been then he'll start at point with Terry starting at the 2.

Obstructed_View

07-15-2006, 08:51 AM

Also, Dirk was getting more calls in the Spurs series than he was in the Heat series. The refs really let them play in the finals (outside of not being able to breath on Wade). The Spurs series was called much more tightly but I don't have to tell you that.
I don't buy that. The Spurs weren't playing their game, they were out of position and learning on the run against a good team. They committed more fouls. There were bad calls, but no more than there usually are. The Spurs put themselves in a position this year where the officiating mattered, and that's their fault.

I attribute that to the Spurs being a championship team and somehow finding a way to win when they probably shouldn't IMO.
I agree completely. I thought the Spurs' heart was the only thing that gave them any chance in that series. That's why it pisses me off that people bad mouth Manu for the foul when he played his fucking guts out just to try to keep up with what amounted to a much better team, yet so little blame goes to his coach for gutting the roster and throwing them out there.

Dalhoop

07-15-2006, 09:03 AM

The Spurs put themselves in a position this year where the officiating mattered, and that's their fault.

I wrote the same thing after the Finals.

mabber

07-15-2006, 11:01 AM

That's why it pisses me off that people bad mouth Manu for the foul when he played his fucking guts out just to try to keep up with what amounted to a much better team, yet so little blame goes to his coach for gutting the roster and throwing them out there.

Yeah, I don't understand why so many Spur fans have been so hard on Ginobli. He made a mistake and it was huge, but the guy has made so many great plays for the franchise that he should get a pass. If Dirk had made the bad foul the other way around that cost the Mavs the series there's no way I would have bad mouthed him for it.