Why Nobody Seems To Like Spurs Recent Moves???

[TheAffricanFan]

- Shaq is no longer a force in the NBA, So two Big Players Can Do The Job to Body him throughout the Game. Nazr Mohamed is not a good defender and is not a force on offense so you will see how detroit will sooner then you think regret the signing.

- Rasho was not a good rebounder for his size and just couldn´t stand in front of players in this new fast paced NBA last year.
- I didn´t watch Matt BOnner nor Erick Williams play last year but both will help the Spurs win Games. From my point of view Bonner is a good shooter and will help to space up the floor for TP penetration or TD passes.
- I remember Erick Williams playin in Boston and he was a pretty good defender. At 6´8 220 lbs. he can defend the long, athletic SF of this league, at least try to.
- These Moves gave us some flexibility for the next year aquisitions.

I think that we did good B+ moves :wakeup

[ducks]

they want a rebounding guy
smith might do that IF HE MAKES THE TEAM
spur fans want to know they addressed that issue

[Mr. Body]

We have no rebounding. We have no youth. The guys we added this summer are not very good.

[dknights411]

We have no rebounding. We have no youth. The guys we added this summer are not very good.

What were you expecting anyway? Outside of Ben Wallace and maybe Pryz, there wasn't much of anything this summer anyway, especially in areas that the Spurs are looking for.

[ducks]

I get elelphants out for you :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant :elephant
no do you feel better :fro

[SenorSpur]

We have no rebounding. We have no youth. The guys we added this summer are not very good.

which all means that we'll be a far worse rebounding team that we were last year. That doesn't translate into many playoff victories.

[T Park]

Elson or Butler or both, will prove out to be better than Rashosniff and Lobsterclaws Mohammed.

But SPurs fans always have to bitch about something.

[alamo50]

Sad to see Nazr go (I don't blame him at all), but excited to be seeing Elson's best in silver and black.

[Quadzilla99]

We have no rebounding. We have no youth. The guys we added this summer are not very good.
Besides that we did fine. :lmao

[Dalhoop]

I think that we did good B+ moves

This is a crazy vote

This is the roster as it stands

Parker - Udrih - Vaughn (31)
Manu - Finley (33) - Sanders
Bowen (35) - Barry (35) - Williams (34)
Duncan (30) - Bonner - Horry (36)
Oberto (31)

Does this look like an improvement? I want you to look closely at that bottom line on the depth chart ....

B+ ?

With all that age .... where are the players that are being groomed as their replacements? Where is a player with "upside"?

[Dalhoop]

Based on need

Need 1 (Better center play): Removed both Nazr and Rasho and added nobody ... GRADE F

Need 2 (back-up for Parker): Signed 31yr journeyman Vaughn ... GRADE D

Need 3 (Athleteic SF): 34yr Williams ..... GRADE D-

Need 4 (Back-up for Duncan): Bonner (plays totally different game ... outside shooter) .... GRADE C-

Over all need addressing: Grade D

Effect on roster: F (you have no center)

[Quadzilla99]

Based on need

Need 1 (Better center play): Removed both Nazr and Rasho and added nobody ... GRADE F

Need 2 (back-up for Parker): Signed 31yr journeyman Vaughn ... GRADE D

Need 3 (Athleteic SF): 34yr Williams ..... GRADE D-

Need 4 (Back-up for Duncan): Bonner (plays totally different game ... outside shooter) .... GRADE C-

Over all need addressing: Grade D

Effect on roster: F (you have no center)
I actually agree with shitface Mavs Fan over here if we don't get Butler. Oh and Dalhoop have no center either unless you consider Diop or the stiff who got beaten out by Diop acceptable.

[shaggy17]

:rolleyes The Mavs needs:

1.)Needing the help of the Refs to bullshit your way back to the finals... Grade F

2.)Finding Irk Noshitski some testicles,composure, and not needing to rely on the refs in the clutch to bail him out...Grade F

3.)Praying that the Spurs and the Suns dont reload (especially with Amare coming back your team is fucked if he comes back in good form)...A+


Go do yourself a favor and brag to your pals on how the Mavericks are the only NBA Texas team to have NEVER won the trophy. Also brag to them about how you bullshitted your way to the finals but couldnt get the fucking job done! :rolleyes

[Dalhoop]

Oh and Dalhoop have no center either unless you consider Diop or the stiff who got beaten out by Diop acceptable.

Oh its on now ... just kidding :)

At least we have TWO bodies :)

[Dalhoop]

1.)Needing the help of the Refs to bullshit your way back to the finals... Grade F

2.)Finding Irk Noshitski some testicles,composure, and not needing to rely on the refs in the clutch to bail him out...Grade F

3.)Praying that the Spurs and the Suns dont reload (especially with Amare coming back your team is fucked if he comes back in good form)...A+

These grades are all wrong.

1) How can you grade us on getting back to the Finals when the season hasn't been played yet? I would give an incomplete on that one.

2) Granted, I am not his doctor, but he showed some testicular aggression on that exercise bike didn't he? He did drive to rim to accept the gift of Manus hand foul .... I would give that a C

3) A grade for Praying ..... Okay, I'll take the A :)

That adds up to a B with one incomplete. Still better then the Spurs :)

[Bruno]

First, it's too soon to grade the offseason but I agree Spurs have make good moves for the moment.

If we don't make another move (and I doubt it will be the case), we are a worst team than last year but we are a better team against teams like Mavs.

[Dalhoop]

First, it's too soon to grade the offseason but I agree Spurs have make good moves for the moment.

Its true it is too soon, as I tried to point out with showing the current roster with only Oberto at Center and no back-up


If we don't make another move (and I doubt it will be the case), we are a worst team than last year but we are a better team against teams like Mavs.

The team HAS to make further moves (or the current, on the table moves work out) because they don't have enough bodies.

About the Mavs ... This team would be the same as last years vs the Mavs, only this time they would have to play without a center ... they don't have one after all. I think that playing small ball all year would work to the Spurs advantage vs the Mavs, but cost them against the rest of the league.

I don't think that they would win however because the age problem just gets bigger and bigger with eash passing year

[Bruno]

Its true it is too soon, as I tried to point out with showing the current roster with only Oberto at Center and no back-up


The current roster doesn't play.
Judging how a team has addressed his need while the offseason has just started is just stupid.





The team HAS to make further moves (or the current, on the table moves work out) because they don't have enough bodies.

What's your point, Spurs aren't ready on july 15th ?
As fas as I know, playoffs start in 9 months.



About the Mavs ... This team would be the same as last years vs the Mavs, only this time they would have to play without a center ... they don't have one after all. I think that playing small ball all year would work to the Spurs advantage vs the Mavs, but cost them against the rest of the league.

Spurs will be better against Mavs if they don't do a move. Vaughn and Udrih can't be worse than NVE. Williams and Bonner will be more helpfull than Nazr and Rasho.



I don't think that they would win however because the age problem just gets bigger and bigger with eash passing year

Stop thinking, because you say stupid things. Most of Spurs' players will be better next year than this year.

[Dalhoop]

The current roster doesn't play. Judging how a team has addressed his need while the offseason has just started is just stupid.

I didn't start the thread talk to someone else about it.


What's your point, Spurs aren't ready on july 15th? As fas as I know, playoffs start in 9 months.

My point is that you have thirteen bodys and that more moves have to be made ..... did you read the post?


Spurs will be better against Mavs if they don't do a move. Vaughn and Udrih can't be worse than NVE. Williams and Bonner will be more helpfull than Nazr and Rasho.

Agreed


Stop thinking, because you say stupid things. Most of Spurs' players will be better next year than this year.

Because age doesn't matter in Spur-land?

[Obstructed_View]

Parker - Udrih - Vaughn (31)
Manu - Finley (33) - Sanders
Bowen (35) - Barry (35) - Williams (34)
Duncan (30) - Bonner - Horry (36)
Oberto (31)

Does this look like an improvement?

Here's the lineup at the end of the season:

Parker - Van Exel
Manu - Barry
Bowen
Finley - Horry
Duncan

Looks like a fuckin' improvement to me.

[Bruno]

I didn't start the thread talk to someone else about it.


Grading moves isn't the same thing than grading a roster. If you don't undertand the difference, I can't do nothing for you.
You're the first to start looking at the roster and even if you weren't the first, it's not because someone make something stupid that you had to do the same.
If a guy jump in SA swamp, will you jump too ?




My point is that you have thirteen bodys and that more moves have to be made .....

... And Spurs are making some moves with Elson and Butler.



Because age doesn't matter in Spur-land?

You aren't a worse player at 25 than at 24 or at 31 than at 30.

Only players that are old enough to be in the cateory : will be worse each years are Finley, Horry, Bowen and Barry.

Finley will likely be better because it will be his second year with Spurs and he will be more comfortable.
Horry has been so bad that even if he is worse that won't be a huge loss.
Barry isn't a big factor too.

There are Bruce case but :
- He has made his best season this year.
- His conditioning is great.
- He is never injured (something like 400 games without a miss)
- He hasn't played a lot of minutes in nba (he has played some season in europe where you play way less). As an example, Dirk has played 25,000 min in nba and Bruce 20,000 min.

[Obstructed_View]

San Antonio has a swamp?

[Bruno]

San Antonio has a swamp?

The River Walk according to the great Mark Cuban.

[Obstructed_View]

The River Walk according to the great Mark Cuban.
He's apparently never seen the Trinity.

[Dalhoop]

Grading moves isn't the same thing than grading a roster. If you don't undertand the difference, I can't do nothing for you.

Move don't take place in a vaccum. There is a cause and effect .. Rasho and Nazr in themselves are good, if just for the money. You cannot ignore the fact that the Spurs have lost both of the centers from last year and replaced them with nothing.

A trade of Parker for .... Dwight Howard would be seen as a bad move, not because of the talent in the trade, but it where it leaves the team (without a PG and with two starting PFs)

The moves of Nazr and Rasho are good in a vaccum, but it leaves the team without a center


You're the first to start looking at the roster and even if you weren't the first, it's not because someone make something stupid that you had to do the same.
If a guy jump in SA swamp, will you jump too ?

His opening statment about two bodies on Shaq opened the roster question, in fact the Spurs only have Oberto at center right now ... they don't have two bodies.

You have swamps down there? I didn't know that.

I am here to post on topics ... both good and bad ... its what I do :)


And Spurs are making some moves with Elson and Butler.

The question was to this point

The last paragraph is long so I wont quote it.

Bowen is a marvel, I will give you that. I think that he can do it again and play big minutes ... he is not the concern.

Finley on the other hand led the league in minutes for several years and dispite his game now, was a slasher ... there are alot of miles on the knees and legs .... I don't think that he will have a health season.

Barry although "not a factor" is on the roster and will see the floor .... his age will be on display ... the same goes for Horry.

All this means nothing if everyone stays healthy, but with that many players 30+ years of age, what are the chanses that they will all stay healthy? When one goes down it puts pressure on the next ... and more minutes ... and more chance for injury.

The team needs to get younger, they need to get more athletic, they need to get faster .... the moves (to this point) have done nothing about this (Butler will help, Elson is already 30) and have gutted the big men from the team with only Bonner to show.

[venitian navigator]

I agree that if you give more time to players (see Oberto at c/pf; Udrih back up pg) they can prove to be better...and that maybe some positions/players now, possibly, could are better "insurances" than before (bonner for Horry; voughn for the back up pg spot; E. Wiullimas, in case he effectively polays for us, for bowen).
The point is that, at the moment, is :

a) we have quite nothing really relieble at the center/pf position except td and :

1) is more than possible that elson and butler don't sign;
2) is alot more than possible that, also in nba unproven, Scola and Javtokas were a lot better than them and we know they already will not come for this season (at least);
3) for f.o. admission, rasho and nazr were better than them;
4) looking at the market, we could have no more options avalilable in case they both don't sign...(ex. Evans wants the mle and I don't think our f.o. is supposed to give that to him...while other teams are ready to do that)

b) we have nothing more in the back court that can compare with "fresh and speedy" legs that likely kiled us against the "small ball" dallas (the terry, harris, howard trio) and/or other teams that are gonna adopt the some strategy

c) we're effectively growing old...and our passed draft choices are not gonna contribute (at least for this year) and don't make see a lot of signs to be so good as we were hoping...


So, everything can happen, but at the moment I don't see a lot of lights shining in our way...

[Bruno]

Move don't take place in a vaccum. There is a cause and effect ..
The moves of Nazr and Rasho are good in a vaccum, but it leaves the team without a center.

So you are judging a team while the offseason isn't finished. You agreed that's it's too soon to judge and you do it, be a little logical.



His opening statment about two bodies on Shaq opened the roster question, in fact the Spurs only have Oberto at center right now ... they don't have two bodies.

I'm repeating myself but
Right now, Spurs don't play.



You have swamps down there? I didn't know that.

Ask Cuban.



I am here to post on topics ... both good and bad ... its what I do :)

First, this topic isn't bad. You haven't understand the difference between grading moves and grading an offseason.
Second, you can still post good things in a bad topic.



All this means nothing if everyone stays healthy, but with that many players 30+ years of age, what are the chanses that they will all stay healthy? When one goes down it puts pressure on the next ... and more minutes ... and more chance for injury.

30 years isn't old for a player. the only old player that play a lot is Bowen and as you said, he is "a marvel".
And I'm not sold on the fact that a 30 years old player is more injury prone than a 23 years old player. Just look at your team, Harris and Howard were more injured last year than Terry, Dirk or Dampier.



The team needs to get younger, they need to get more athletic, they need to get faster .... the moves (to this point) have done nothing about this (Butler will help, Elson is already 30)

Elson is more athletic and faster than Rasho/Nazr and 30 years old isn't old for a center.
Bonner and butler are quite young.
Vaughn is quite old but we don't need to be younger at the PG spot with Parker and Udrih.



have gutted the big men from the team with only Bonner to show.

Sure Rasho and Nazr were really helpful during playoffs.

[Dalhoop]

So you are judging a team while the offseason isn't finished. You agreed that's it's too soon to judge and you do it, be a little logical.

We both agree that it is too early to grade the off-season, but that is what the topic started wanted.

If you don't give the team an Incomplete ... which is an appropreate grade at this point ... then you have to give them a failing grade because of the effect of the moves on the team and needs that were not addressed ... and new needs that were created by the moves.

Now Nazr walking isn't really a move ... Its more of a wave ... The Spurs had no say.

Rasho was a trade .... they controlled that one. In that trade they gave away a center and got a PF ... Both back-ups though Rasho is more likely to start games next year.

Knowing what the Spurs did about Nazr and his play (and attitude) what would be more important? Getting a center back in the trade that may cover for a "acting out" Nazr, or getting a power forward to play 15 minutes behind Duncan?

That trade was not a good one because it didn't address the resulting need.

Vaughn's signing .... well, at least he is a warm body (I would rather give the minutes to Udrih and see if you can build his convidence). There are two schools of thought with back-ups. you can have "young and developing" or "old and steady". The team needs "young and developing"

Williams is in the same boat as Vaughn.

Is there no "combo guard" out there that the Spurs could get (Daniels comes to mind) and develop?

[Dalhoop]

Sure Rasho and Nazr were really helpful during playoffs.

I didn't watch the Kings series so I will have to take your word for that. i have already go into depths to try to explain why the Spurs centers had no playing time in the Mavs series ..... The coaches had no choice .... They were not quick enough to cover Howard or Stackhouse on defense ... they had to come out of the game.

It was that simple.

Now how many centers out there can cover a young athletic SF? Just because Nazr and Rasho couldn't do it doesn't mean that everyone else can. They were ineffective in that series .... in my opionion, not worth gutting the corp for

[strangeweather]

If you don't give the team an Incomplete ... which is an appropreate grade at this point ... then you have to give them a failing grade because of the effect of the moves on the team and needs that were not addressed ... and new needs that were created by the moves.
Of course they get an incomplete. They're not actually done yet. Even if they don't make another move, they still have two moves pending, and we're not sure what happens with either of them.


Rasho was a trade .... they controlled that one. In that trade they gave away a center and got a PF ... Both back-ups though Rasho is more likely to start games next year.

Knowing what the Spurs did about Nazr and his play (and attitude) what would be more important? Getting a center back in the trade that may cover for a "acting out" Nazr, or getting a power forward to play 15 minutes behind Duncan?

That trade was not a good one because it didn't address the resulting need.
Considering that they seem to be addressing their center position in other ways, I don't see anything wrong with what they got back for Rasho.

Also, if you saw Horry in the postseason, someone who can give us backup minutes at PF is also a need.


Vaughn's signing .... well, at least he is a warm body (I would rather give the minutes to Udrih and see if you can build his convidence). There are two schools of thought with back-ups. you can have "young and developing" or "old and steady". The team needs "young and developing"
The team has young and developing -- Beno. But Beno has played his way out of playoff minutes for two years in a row now, and we need a fallback option. A veteran defender who can handle pressure is a pretty good fallback.


Williams is in the same boat as Vaughn.
Williams is trade bait or cap relief.


Is there no "combo guard" out there that the Spurs could get (Daniels comes to mind) and develop?
We have a developing PG, and I expect the Spurs are working on getting a swingman. A guy who can play both swing spots is a much bigger priority than a combo guard.

[Bruno]

We both agree that it is too early to grade the off-season, but that is what the topic started wanted.

If you don't give the team an Incomplete ... which is an appropreate grade at this point ... then you have to give them a failing grade because of the effect of the moves on the team and needs that were not addressed ... and new needs that were created by the moves.

So you say that's it's too soon to judge and you want to give a grade for the offeason ?

For the 20th times, the topic starter grade trades and moves not the whole offseason.



Knowing what the Spurs did about Nazr and his play (and attitude) what would be more important? Getting a center back in the trade that may cover for a "acting out" Nazr, or getting a power forward to play 15 minutes behind Duncan?

So you want to trade a center for a center, I'm impressed.
Spurs have never planed to re-sign Nazr.
Maybe you haven't notice but Duncan is more a center than a PF.



That trade was not a good one because it didn't address the resulting need.

Never heard of Salary dump. This trade was very good for Spurs. There are the whole offseason to address Spurs' needs.



Vaughn's signing .... well, at least he is a warm body (I would rather give the minutes to Udrih and see if you can build his convidence). There are two schools of thought with back-ups. you can have "young and developing" or "old and steady". The team needs "young and developing"


Vaughn is the 3rd PG, Beno is the main backup.
When your starting PG is 24 years old and when your backup PG is 24 years old, you don't need a third young point guard. Booth are what you called "young and developing".
Spurs needed what you called an "old and steady" PG as insurance if Beno struggles.

[Bruno]

They were ineffective in that series .... in my opionion, not worth gutting the corp for

You don't spend $23M/3 years (Rasho) or $24m/4 years (Nazr) for an useless player against your main rival (and not that great against Phoenix too).
Playoffs are everything, regular season is just a preseason for teams like Spurs or mavs.

It is that simple.

[beirmeistr]

I realize that the summer is young, but, considering the tight budget that the Spurs run, I think they made good decisions pinning down Elson and Butler to offer sheets.
I think Elson will be a Spur, and, from what I read, the Knicks would be dumb to match the Spurs' offer for Butler because of luxury tax considerations. If, and I am using the word IF, the Spurs land both Elson and Butler, they will probably be an improvement over Rasho and Nazr. I just wonder if either one can put up some resistance against Shaq or Yao. Old Rasho did an adequate job huffing and puffing against the big centers. It's a shame that Javtokas didn't make it, but, like some others have poinyed out, it's a business and the Spurs made a business decision. I think Beno and Oberto deserve more time to prove themselves.
And I am still waiting for a juicy trade by the Spurs.

[Bruno]

:lol strangeweather, are you in my mind ?

[strangeweather]

:lol strangeweather, are you in my mind ?
GMTA, I guess. :lol

[Dalhoop]

Considering that they seem to be addressing their center position in other ways, I don't see anything wrong with what they got back for Rasho.

As long as things in the future work out ... the grade was for the moves made to this point.

To this point they have addressed the back-up to TD and the third string PG while at the same time losing both centers and creating a void

The grade to this point is not a good one.


The team has young and developing -- Beno. But Beno has played his way out of playoff minutes for two years in a row now, and we need a fallback option. A veteran defender who can handle pressure is a pretty good fallback.

If he doesn't work out, then they need to get another developing PG. After two full seasons they should have a good idea of whether he is going to be the answer or not ... If not then trade him for another.


A guy who can play both swing spots is a much bigger priority than a combo guard. They would both do the same thing, releave the pressure for the oldsters in those positions right now (I am talking about the back-ups)


So you say that's it's too soon to judge and you want to give a grade for the offeason ?

For the 20th times, the topic starter grade trades and moves not the whole offseason.

And for the 20th time that is what I am doing .. the grades suck and the off season is not done. they need to do better before the season starts ... as they are about out of money, it will have to be though trades .... I am not sure that Elson and Butler are going to help as much as Nazr and Rasho ... Butler is Raw and Elson is a euro-center (not known for defense)


You don't spend $23M/3 years (Rasho) or $24m/4 years (Nazr) for an useless player against your main rival (and not that great against Phoenix too).

Alright 13.6M is a little steep to pay, but we have the same problem when playing the Suns .. Diop and Dampier can't get on the floor (no one to guard). But just because they have noone to play vs the Suns doesn't mean that they were usless vs the Spurs, Grizzlies and Heat.

Its about ALL the play-offs, not just one opponent.

[strangeweather]

As long as things in the future work out ... the grade was for the moves made to this point.

To this point they have addressed the back-up to TD and the third string PG while at the same time losing both centers and creating a void

The grade to this point is not a good one.
Hence the repeated discussion about why it's awfully silly to give them an offseason grade other than incomplete at this point.


If he doesn't work out, then they need to get another developing PG. After two full seasons they should have a good idea of whether he is going to be the answer or not ... If not then trade him for another.
I expect this year is the key. If he finally puts it together, we have our backup. If not, he's unlikely to stick around. Either way, it makes more sense to address the position after this year, not right now. Hence Vaughn.


They would both do the same thing, releave the pressure for the oldsters in those positions right now (I am talking about the back-ups)
We're old in the swing positions. We're downright young at point. We're also undersized at SF. Adding a combo guard without the size to be a legit SF would be completely the wrong move.



I am not sure that Elson and Butler are going to help as much as Nazr and Rasho ... Butler is Raw and Elson is a euro-center (not known for defense)
Elson has plenty of deficiencies, but defense is probably the least of them.


Alright 13.6M is a little steep to pay, but we have the same problem when playing the Suns .. Diop and Dampier can't get on the floor (no one to guard). But just because they have noone to play vs the Suns doesn't mean that they were usless vs the Spurs, Grizzlies and Heat.

Its about ALL the play-offs, not just one opponent.
Yes, but Rasho and Nazr weren't very effective vs. Sacto, either.

Your needs are different then ours. If we end up somehow trading for a starting PF, we will start the best center in pro basketball in Duncan. By contrast, Dirk needs a big guy next to him to provide the toughness inside. That makes Rasho and Nazr a lot less crucial to us than Damp and Diop are to you guys.

[Bruno]

GMTA, I guess. :lol

It should be that :)