Ludden: Spurs wait on Knicks' reply [Archive]

Kori Ellis

07-15-2006, 12:15 AM

Spurs wait on Knicks' reply: Butler's agent says New York front office is unpredictable

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/basketball/nba/spurs/stories/MYSA071506.1C.BKNspurs.butler.1b6a669.html

Web Posted: 07/15/2006 12:03 AM CDT
Johnny Ludden
Express-News Staff Writer

Unsure about New York's plans for his client — possibly because New York also may not be sure — Jackie Butler's agent wouldn't speculate Friday whether the center will be wearing a Spurs uniform next season.

Keith Glass, who represents Butler, was in Las Vegas the previous few days where New York's summer-league team was playing, but said Knicks officials hadn't spoken to him about whether they intend to match the Spurs' three-year, $7 million offer sheet for the 21-year-old center.

"I really can't predict this one, to say the least," Glass said. "I think it's a tossup."

The Spurs signed Butler and Denver's Francisco Elson to offer sheets on Wednesday. The seven-day window the Knicks and Nuggets have to keep the restricted free agents didn't start until Thursday because NBA lawyers asked the Spurs to clarify some of the language in both contract offers.

Glass said Butler declined a more lucrative offer from another team because he thought the Spurs would be a better fit. With Rasho Nesterovic traded to Toronto and Nazr Mohammed signing with Detroit, the Spurs don't have a true center on their roster.

The Knicks have 14 players with guaranteed contracts, one shy of the league maximum, and have almost $70 million already committed to centers Eddy Curry and Jerome James. Butler's contract also would essentially cost New York double because the team's payroll figures to incur the league's dollar-for-dollar luxury tax.

"Nothing is going to surprise me what they do," Glass said. "It's a very weird situation. At least, on some type of list, Jackie is behind Eddy and Jerome. But he also was playing ahead of them, at times, last season."

Former Knicks coach Larry Brown, who is represented by Glass' father, Joe, favored Butler over Curry and James by the end of last season, often playing him in the fourth quarter.

"Everybody said Jackie was Larry's guy, but (Knicks president and coach) Isiah (Thomas) is the one who signed him out of the CBA," Glass said. "He gave (Butler) a chance, and we're grateful for that.

"Obviously, the chance to play with the Spurs and contribute on a team that could have a championship year is attractive. But we just have to wait and see. There's a real chance he could be going back to New York."

The Spurs had hoped to restart negotiations with Lithuanian center Robertas Javtokas if they don't get either Butler or Elson. But Javtokas' agent, Herb Rudoy, said the deadline for Javtokas to get out the contract with his Greek team, Panathinaikos, ended Friday.

"That's over," Rudoy said of his negotiations with the Spurs. "(Robertas) is committed (to playing in Greece)."

Javtokas will be free to try to come to the NBA next summer, Rudoy said.

The Spurs did make a couple of minor roster additions Friday, signing rookie forwards Rich Melzer and Jamar Smith.

Both players signed minimum-salary contracts with only a small percentage guaranteed. Each essentially will be trying to make the team in training camp in October.

Spurs coach Gregg Popovich watched Melzer and Smith play in the Pepsi Summer Pro League this week in Orlando, Fla. Both participated in the Spurs' recent mini-camp and joined the Spurs' summer-league team Friday in Salt Lake City.

Melzer, 26, is a 6-foot-8 forward who attended Wisconsin-River Falls. He spent last season playing in the NBA's developmental league and in New Zealand.

Smith, 26, is a 6-9 forward who played at Maryland. He played for Austin in the NBDL last season, averaging 11.4 points and 7.2 rebounds.

Mohammed farewell: Bruce Bowen said Friday he was surprised that Mohammed left the Spurs to sign with Detroit.

"This is where he won a championship, and that ought to say something to someone," Bowen said. "This is a great organization and community, and the people loved him here.

"He went to Detroit, and I was saddened (about) that. That's part of the business, but of all places, he goes to Detroit, a team we beat in the Finals. I don't understand it."

Mohammed received a more lucrative contract from the Pistons than what the Spurs offered.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 12:22 AM

This would be the perfect time for Butler to go into Isiah's office and say "Fuck you" in his face a few times. That's his would-be coach, after all, and this is the perfect one time in his life to be unprofessional.

Kori Ellis

07-15-2006, 12:22 AM

Das Texan

07-15-2006, 12:24 AM

Yippee. We have to wait an extra day :lol

fuckin lawyers

:blah

Please_dont_ban_me

07-15-2006, 12:24 AM

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 12:26 AM

And can we please shelve these ideas that the Spurs didn't want Javtokas? It's clear they wanted to finesse the situation and screwed up the negotiating. This was a significant failure on their part, as we may easily go into next season with only Elson as our center.

CubanMustGo

07-15-2006, 12:27 AM

"He went to Detroit, and I was saddened (about) that. That's part of the business, but of all places, he goes to Detroit, a team we beat in the Finals. I don't understand it."

Mohammed received a more lucrative contract from the Pistons than what the Spurs offered.

Dear Bruce, please read the next line. For most players it's all about the money.

Spurologist

07-15-2006, 12:29 AM

A GARBAGE time three pointer in the playoffs =

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/2860/nazrdoghousezm1.png

= No mins + Growing Frustion + Displaced Anger with teammates (this case = Bowen) + Wanting to leave for more money.

whottt

07-15-2006, 12:34 AM

Bowens comments are interesting.

He seems a little bitter. I never thought of it that way until just now, but Nazr did go to our rivals. Is that fucked up? It doesn't bother me for some reason. Probably because most posters on here think he'll be the best player on our team in a Pistons vs. Spurs game. :elephant

I don't think Bruce is bitter...he's just loyal, and obviously, as he's proven throughout his Spurs career, winning means more to Bruce than getting $$$$.

I don't think it's so much bitterness as just not understanding Nazr's mindest.

If he's wants to win a championship, why doesn't he just stay here? Where he already knows this system and his teamates....even if he has to give up a few bucks.

It's just the mindset of one guy, a talent challenged journeymen whose jersey will probably be retired by his team, VS the mindset of a much more talented player who will likely never get his jersey retired and probably won't even be remembered much by the fans of his teams...

Buddy Holly

07-15-2006, 12:34 AM

For most players it's all about the money.

And Bruce isn't one of those players.

Please_dont_ban_me

07-15-2006, 12:37 AM

I don't think Bruce is bitter...he's just loyal, and obviously, as he's proven throughout his Spurs career, winning means more to Bruce than getting $$$$.

I don't think it's so much bitterness as just not understanding Nazr's mindest.

If he's wants to win a championship, why doesn't he just stay here? Where he already knows this system and his teamates....even if he has to give up a few bucks.

It's just the mindset of one guy, a talent challenged journeymen whose jersey will probably be retired by his team, VS the mindset of a much more talented player who will likely never get his jersey retired and probably won't even be remembered much by the fans of his teams...

How much is he making in Detroit, much more than 5 mill a year?

That's about what he'd make here. I think his leaving had more to do with minutes and feeling like he was actually a part of the team. It just seemed like he was somewhat of an outsider here, then the Mavs debacle probably put the icing on the cake.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 12:38 AM

His family is in Chicago, right? Detroit's about 3 hours away.

furry_spurry

07-15-2006, 12:44 AM

You fulfill your contract- you get paid by the team what you agreed to- you go where you are sent- and when your contract is up- no one owes anyone anything- nothing more than what was in the contract. If it's true for one side- ownership- it is true for the other- the player.

whottt

07-15-2006, 12:47 AM

How much is he making in Detroit, much more than 5 mill a year?

Dunno but I don't think the Pistons had more than the MLE to offer...

Either they were over the cap and had the MLE, or they were under it(in which case not by much) and probably wouldn't even have the amount of MLE available.

That's about what he'd make here. I think his leaving had more to do with minutes and feeling like he was actually a part of the team. It just seemed like he was somewhat of an outsider here.

And he's assured of Detroit being a better situation, how?

Replacing a multiple DPOY winner?

Didn't the heart and soul of their team just bail on them?

That's an easy job?

then the Mavs debacle probably put the icing on the cake.

This would be my guess too. I don't think he liked riding the bench in the Mavs Series and FWIW, I agree he should have gotten more PT, at least situationally...

But what we'll never know for sure is if it was just the lack of PT that pissed him off, or the damage it did to his earning power...

In any case...he probably would have been better off staying here. I don't think Detroit's going to work out to well for him, because of the shoes he is filling, and the obvious chemistry problems they started to have at the end of last season.

And Bruce's comments were probably about championships and loyalty more than anything...he just doesn't get Nazr's mindset.

jman3000

07-15-2006, 12:52 AM

He's their Rasho going to replace David Robinson (to a lesser extent)... like whottt said, he's entering a very tough situation, and it wouldn't surprise me if sometime during the season he gets frustrated and vents a little in the media. He's has big shoes to fill, and chances are he won't even come close.

furry_spurry

07-15-2006, 12:55 AM

MannyIsGod

07-15-2006, 12:56 AM

Please_dont_ban_me

07-15-2006, 12:57 AM

I wish Javtokas' highlights were marked post/pre injury.

MannyIsGod

07-15-2006, 12:59 AM

Most of them are post, but none of them were in the NBA. I think the dude will be good and it sucks he's not here, but no need to go overboard.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 01:02 AM

Mr Body, Javaktovas not coming sucks but lets not make it seem like a huge error. The dude may be good in the NBA, he may not. You keep making it seem like this is some gigantic error and that remains to be seen.

Did you read the article? The Spurs wanted to sign him when one of either Elson or Butler is matched. They did not want him to sign a contract overseas until they finished negotiating with him, but failed to communicate in some way. It was a mistake. You've got to face it. How big a mistake will be seen - if Butler is matched, it's pretty bad, because then of course all we have is Elson.

Russ

07-15-2006, 01:07 AM

The seven-day window the Knicks and Nuggets have to keep the restricted free agents didn't start until Thursday because NBA lawyers asked the Spurs to clarify some of the language in both contract offers.
That actually may be a good thing -- it sounds like the Spurs legal staff put some funky, off-beat clauses in the contracts, probably to make them less attractive to match.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 01:10 AM

Pig Latin.

MannyIsGod

07-15-2006, 01:32 AM

Did you read the article? The Spurs wanted to sign him when one of either Elson or Butler is matched. They did not want him to sign a contract overseas until they finished negotiating with him, but failed to communicate in some way. It was a mistake. You've got to face it. How big a mistake will be seen - if Butler is matched, it's pretty bad, because then of course all we have is Elson.Yeah, but the guy is unprooven in the NBA so while you miss out on potential, you don't miss out on a sure thing

Kori Ellis

07-15-2006, 01:36 AM

Did you read the article? The Spurs wanted to sign him when one of either Elson or Butler is matched. They did not want him to sign a contract overseas until they finished negotiating with him, but failed to communicate in some way. It was a mistake. You've got to face it. How big a mistake will be seen - if Butler is matched, it's pretty bad, because then of course all we have is Elson.

The Spurs had hoped to restart negotiations with Lithuanian center Robertas Javtokas if they don't get either Butler or Elson.

But Javtokas was still their third choice, right? They wanted Butler and Elson. And then if they didn't get one of them, then they wanted Jav. Or am I misreading it?

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 01:38 AM

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 01:41 AM

But Javtokas was still their third choice, right? They wanted Butler and Elson. And then if they didn't get one of them, then they wanted Jav. Or am I misreading it?

That's what I'm thinking. They wanted Javtokas to wait until Butler was or wasn't matched, then sign him to that slot if it was available. (Or Elson, which was less likely.)

Javtokas was their third choice.

Actually, I think Elson is separate. They might recognize him as the third best of the three, but need someone with NBA experience who has started NBA games. They needed to take a flyer on Butler due to the RFA deal, so it's not even clear that they think Javtokas isn't the best of the three (likely 2nd).

MannyIsGod

07-15-2006, 02:09 AM

Manny, no disrespect, but I don't think you're getting it. The issue is not picking Elson over Javtokas. The issue is losing their insurance policy through bad communication. The article clearly states they wanted to sign him to whichever slot was matched. They somehow screwed up, Javtokas went for another contract instead of waiting, and they risk having only one center (Elson) instead of a guaranteed two (either Elson/Butler or Elson/Javtokas).No, I get what you're saying but you're not getting a few things and you're assuming others. Now, you're assuming that there was a comunication faliure but they may have communicated clear as day to his agent and Robertas but Robertas may have just decided that waiting was not in his best interests. You simply have no way of knowing for sure.

Next, Javaktovas seems to be their 3rd option behind Elson and Butler, so if they get both Elson and Butler there is no mistake.

Lastly, as I've been saying Robertas wasn't a lock to be a good NBA player so there's no way to say for certain that they made a huge mistake by not bringing him in regardless of the circumstances.

MannyIsGod

07-15-2006, 02:10 AM

If they thought Robertas was the 2nd best of the 3, he'd be here.

whottt

07-15-2006, 02:13 AM

But- why are players held to a higher standard? If the Spurs did not want to bring Nazr back- would he be questioning their loyalty- after all Nazr helped them win a championship- right? I just find it funny because teams get rid of players all the time, but then when a player leaves a team, he is the disloyal one.

Who knows? But in this case the comments about Nazr we are analyzing come from a fellow player...not a fan, not a team honcho.

It also depends on the organization...some organizations are pretty loyal.

milkyway21

07-15-2006, 02:19 AM

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 02:20 AM

Read my response to Kori. Elson was selected because they wanted a starter with NBA experience. At least someone who has started before. Whether they thought Javtokas was better or not is irrelevant. They went with Elson because they knew they could get him and they knew what he could provide.

Then they went after Butler. As an RFA, they had to as soon as possible, knowing it would take seven days to find out and the answer could very well be 'No.' In which case they would swing their attention to Javtokas.

They want to go into next season with two centers. One is Elson, automatically. The other is Butler/Javtokas. They needed to set it up so that, if Butler was matched, they could then sign Javtokas. Yet, as it stands, there is no Javtokas to be signed. This is where the mistake was made.

One of two things went wrong: 1) they did not amply communicate to him their plans and failed to access his sympathies enough to have him wait another week. Or, 2) they did, he was pissed, and signed another contract. Their mistake here was in not planning any contingencies in that case.

This is a mess. They're in really bad shape at the moment, because they are very close to only getting Francisco Elson out of this. If Isiah doesn't match, they're in great shape, that was option one. If Isiah matches, there are no other centers on the market and this might just be a busted year. Even if Javtokas would be a below-average center, he is still somebody they have on the bench. Someone who's not there right now. You're also failing to read these articles - the team wanted to keep negotiating with Robertas, but because they floundered the option was lost. Their insurance is gone.

How you fail to see the mistake here, I don't know.

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 02:22 AM

Javtokas wanted more money than the Spurs wanted to give him. He got pissed and showed them whatfor by going to Greece.

How tough is this to figure out?

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 02:24 AM

No. Chump, you're wrong.

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 02:24 AM

No. You're wrong.

There. We're even.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 02:26 AM

Seriously. You have nothing to substantiate this claim. You're talking out your ass, when all evidence points to a different situation.

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 02:32 AM

Shit. Javtokas spent months here. Underwent surgery. Hobbled around the SBC on his futuro crutches. You'd think in that time he'd get some kind of idea how the Spurs organization works, right?

You give him no credit.

He wanted money and the Greek contract and deadline were bargaining angles, just like the Spurs' deadline for Zo was a bargaining angle. I know you have a priapism for this guy, but he's been noncommittal about being a Spur before, making claims about playing time and whatnot. If he really wanted to be a Spur that badly, he wouldn't have agreed to the Greek team's arbitrary deadline.

No one held a gun to this guy's head.

Quadzilla99

07-15-2006, 02:35 AM

He signed a 1 year $1.5 million dollar contract. I don't see how it was about money.

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 02:36 AM

He wanted more from the Spurs.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 02:46 AM

The Spurs org helped him out big time, absolutely. And I give him total credit for expecting to play for the team this year. So why isn't he? I can't really tell, but you seem to think it's his fault.

I don't understand any of your arguments, because there don't seem to be any. Javtokas signed with Panathanaikos when the Spurs went for two other centers. Why wouldn't he? The offer was on the table, as you point out, as a bargaining chip. Yes. But also an escape clause. We've all seen how the Spurs have failed to get Scola into the NBA.

Maybe Javtokas asked for too much money. Whatever it was, I can assure you it wasn't out of market price - Rudoy wouldn't do it, anyway. But if the terms were too high, the Spurs might have tried a little thing like 'negotiation' and offer a lower price. For centuries humans have done this sort of thing.

Instead, the Spurs took the offer off the table and then, on signing day, instead of getting the next series of faxes, the Jak camp gets word that Elson and Butler were signed to contracts. What the hell is this? Perhaps punitively, they sign right away with Pan, but I'm not sure why they wouldn't.

I think what happened was someone in the F.O. got a stiffie about stealing Butler away from NYK. They also wanted a 'starter' and thought Elson fit the bill. Sent out contracts. Failed utterly to communicate with Jak. Or, conceivably, he was pretty wounded by their about face. We'll see what the damage is next year when the train comes to the station again.

The issue was not money. You've failed on this account. It wasn't playing time or guarantees. Javtokas wasn't being a prima donna or ungrateful for what the Spurs did for him. They said NO to him and he did what any reasonable person would do - find employment elsewhere.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 02:47 AM

He signed a 1 year $1.5 million dollar contract I don't see how it was about money.

Dump isn't really getting it. He has his panties in a twist trying to defend the FO's cheapness and dubious tactics, but it doesn't make much sense.

T Park

07-15-2006, 02:50 AM

:lol

Dubious.....

Heaven forbid he work with the Spurs a little more after they payed for everything in his recovery when they could've told him fuck off wtf are you doing riding a damn motorcycle.

But the Spurs are horrible and everyone in the front office should be fired and Bob Bass and John Lucas should be brought back obviously.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 02:52 AM

T Park buddy, did it ever occur to you Javtokas wasn't even given the opportunity to play hard for the Spurs and pay off some of the debt to them?

What part of "wasn't offered a contract" don't you understand?

T Park

07-15-2006, 02:57 AM

did it ever occur to you Javtokas wasn't even given the opportunity to play hard for the Spurs and pay off some of the debt to them

All he had to do was wait till next thursday and sign a contract.

Not that fucking hard.

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 02:59 AM

I can't really tell, but you seem to think it's his fault.It's no one's fault. He did what he wanted and the Spurs did what they wanted. They just didn't mix.
The issue was not money. You've failed on this account.Bullshit. These things are ALWAYS about money. I can't believe you are being so willfully stupid about this.

Here's my theory on what happened.

1. Before negotiations could even start. Jav's agent says he expects a 2+1 deal. It was reported.

2. Spurs for whatever reason thought they could sign him for the LLE. Why not? This guy can play at this level again because of them. We should get a discount for now. This makes perfect sense because they were offerring the full MLE to Przybilla. That's a fact.

3. Rudoy has been negotiating with Euro teams the entire time. He's an agent.

4. Rudoy and Jav are pissed that the offer is on Manu money. WTF? Oberto got more! Rudoy say fuck the LLE, we can get that from this Greek team! We'll tell the Spurs we're taking this deal and give them until the end of the week to give us more money.

5. Spurs have been talking to the Butler and Elson camps, and they know that they will require more than the LLE because they are restricted. They decide to go ahead and make offers to those two rather than lose them to other teams that may be offerring more (this is a fact with Butler). If one or both players are matched, then they would think about giving Jav more money or years.

Friday comes and goes. Javtokas is playing for at least as much as the Spurs were originally offerring him.

Makes perfect sense.

It was about money.

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 03:03 AM

The Spurs simply couldn't tell Rudoy "Hey, maybe we'll give you more money if this RFA shit doesn't work out" even though that's exactly what would've happened.

Dingle Barry

07-15-2006, 03:15 AM

Chump, you are completely glossing over the diplomacy that might have kept Jav from turning around and signing a Greek contract. Your theory makes it sound like Rudoy and Buford were passing notes with contract figures through a hole in the wall.

The simple fact is that the FO bungled the Jav situation, regardless of how it happened.

MannyIsGod

07-15-2006, 03:20 AM

They didn't bungle anything. The front office has what they want at the moment!

You can say they're stupid for wanting Elson over Javaktovas and I'd be inclided to agree, but they obviously did not want Javaktovas all that much or he'd be under contract at this time.

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 03:24 AM

Chump, you are completely glossing over the diplomacy that might have kept Jav from turning around and signing a Greek contract. Your theory makes it sound like Rudoy and Buford were passing notes with contract figures through a hole in the wall.You're acting like theirs is not a naturally adversarial relationship. Rudoy is a SPORTS AGENT. Buford is a GM. They aren't buddies of family.
The simple fact is that the FO bungled the Jav situation, regardless of how it happened.You're just pissed Javtokas didn't wait to see if he could get more money next week. I don't blame either side for how things went down. You HAVE to blame someone and there's no way you are going to blame your object d'amour Javtokas. So who does that leave?

T Park

07-15-2006, 03:26 AM

The simple fact is that the FO bungled the Jav situation, regardless of how it happened.

So If Javtokas was asking for a ridiculous amount of money for a totally unproven player in the NBA, then thats the FO's fault?

:lol

of course...

EVERYTHING is the FO's fault.

Quadzilla99

07-15-2006, 03:31 AM

Chumpdumper dropping the french like its hot.

velik_m

07-15-2006, 04:03 AM

It's simple Panathinaikos (as most Euro teams) is finnalizing their roster. they weren't willing to wait for a week to see what the Spurs will do, especially since the probabal result would be Spurs signing Javtokas.
And Javtokas wanted more than LLE, so the Spurs couldn't sign him right away.
Javtokas didn't want to risk, so he signed one year sure deal.

texbumTHElife

07-15-2006, 04:33 AM

It makes no sense to say Javtokas was any more than their third priority. Javtokas could have been had and the Spurs knew the price. The Spurs made him the contingiency/back up plan thinking he would wait. They made the offers to Elson and Butler and Javtokas realized what they were doing. He got offended, as I think most would, and decided it wasnt worth waiting around for if he wasnt a priority.

polandprzem

07-15-2006, 04:42 AM

So If Javtokas was asking for a ridiculous amount of money for a totally unproven player in the NBA, then thats the FO's fault?

:lol

of course...

EVERYTHING is the FO's fault.

Yeah - they alwayes could sign 30 more players and wait what will javtokas do :rolleyes

td4mvp3

07-15-2006, 08:26 AM

yeah, the thing about jav not being the third option seems dubious considering that if the spurs won out with elson and butler, there'd be no money, presumably, for jav, which is probably what he figured. the big x factor is new york, which we now see isn't 100 percent going to sign butler. if you're overseas trying to get in and see that much uncertainty, esp. if you think you're worth more, then going with the sure bet makes sense.

itzsoweezee

07-15-2006, 08:56 AM

Obstructed_View

07-15-2006, 09:12 AM

Javtokas got pissed that he wasn't enough of a priority for the Spurs? What was all that time he spent in San Antonio? Scola and Jav have really stupid agents.

ducks

07-15-2006, 09:36 AM

he is also manu's agent and oberta

ducks

07-15-2006, 09:38 AM

scola's issue was not the money

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 10:30 AM

The seven-day window the Knicks and Nuggets have to keep the restricted free agents didn't start until Thursday because NBA lawyers asked the Spurs to clarify some of the language in both contract offers.

Hmm, sounds like we put some real curve balls in the contracts. I'd say we're looking a little better as far as our chances go...

Manny, no disrespect, but I don't think you're getting it. The issue is not picking Elson over Javtokas. The issue is losing their insurance policy through bad communication. The article clearly states they wanted to sign him to whichever slot was matched.

Mr. Body, I don't think you're getting it either. The way I read the article it sounds like there was something in his Greek contract that set a deadline of Friday to either take it or leave it.

There was no miscommunication or lack thereof there, just the devil in the details.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 10:32 AM

Seriously. You have nothing to substantiate this claim. You're talking out your ass, when all evidence points to a different situation.

You've got nothing to substantiate your claims either, other than your hard on for Javtokas.

Fucking get over it.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 10:36 AM

Maybe Javtokas asked for too much money. Whatever it was, I can assure you it wasn't out of market price - Rudoy wouldn't do it, anyway. But if the terms were too high, the Spurs might have tried a little thing like 'negotiation' and offer a lower price. For centuries humans have done this sort of thing.

It's been widely reported the Spurs offered the MLE, and that Rudoy was asking for more than the LLE. Which totally go in the face of your argument. You're wrong.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 10:38 AM

i hope the knicks match just so i can hear the excuses the idiots on here have for passing up on Javtokas.

so butler and elson was the plan? fucking dumb.

neither elson nor butler are better than narz or rasho. anyone with any basketball sense knows that. considering all the bitching you fools did over nazr and rasho's play, i can't i can't imagine the whine fest that will be this board come this season.

So you want to see the Spurs team miss out and have a hole at center just so you can say I told you so on a fucking bulletin board?

You're not a Spurs fan, you're a dumbass. Anyone who wants to see their team get fucked in the FA chase just so they can egg someone on a bulletin board doesn't deserve to be able to say they are a fan of their team.

Weak.

FromWayDowntown

07-15-2006, 11:38 AM

I actually think it's quite plausible that the calculations associated with the Javtokas situation came down to a conclusion that the Spurs could find a basketball value similar to Javtokas elsewhere. They've made a decision that both Elson and Buter are more likely to provide immediate help to the basketball team than Javtokas and so they prioritized the RFAs. I think they also HAD to prioritize them in order to get these deals done -- it's unlikely that they could have offered one, waited, and then offered the other if the first offer was matched. But my point is that the decision to prioritize those guys and to take a "take-it-or-leave-it, we'll come back to you if something falls through" stance with Javtokas makes great sense if you think that Javtokas will be marginal at best and that his skill set are easily duplicated by other available players.

It seems to me that a significant assumption underlying Mr. Body's argument (adopted by the pro-Javotaks camp) is that Javtokas is going to be able to contribute in the NBA and that the Spurs will regret their choices because they won't be able to find a player of his quality a week from now.

I don't know how anyone can make that assumption -- he's never done it. And you can try to point to the Olympics or his play in Euro games as evidence, but we've seen in recent years that for all of the Manus and Nowitzkis and Gasols of the world who excel in every context, there are many international players who look good in some contexts but can't get it done in the NBA -- players like Sarunas Jasikevicius or Arvydas Macijauskas (or even Oberto, perhaps) for instance. I'm not sure there's a justifiable basis for an assumption that Javtokas will be able to contribute at the NBA level to an extent that would exceed the contributions the Spurs might get from the average player still left on the market. It's purely an article of faith by fans who have, for whatever reason, taken up the Javtokas flag.

If the Spurs have reached the opposite conclusion, however, I'd be willing to assume that that's a reasoned determination based on extensive scouting and an intimate familiarity with the nuances of the NBA.

baseline bum

07-15-2006, 12:19 PM

Yippee. We have to wait an extra day :lol

Looks like the Spurs threw a hell of a poison pill in the contract. :lol

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 12:24 PM

The argument I've made lately has nothing to do with what Javtokas will be able to do in the NBA. It has to do with bodies. As in, beginning the season with two centers (not named Duncan). My presumption at this point is that there is very little difference in talent level in the Butler/Javtokas/Elson triad. If there are variances in experience and upside, then fine.

The Spurs are taking an enormous risk in possibly going into the year with only Elson as their man, with Butler being matched. My argument is that Javtokas was intended to slide into the Butler slot if he was. Just to get the two bodies. It has nothing to do with how good he is, and RJ would have been glad to get what was offered Butler. I see nothing to suggest otherwise, plus it's much more money than what Greece offered (for those delerious with the "RJ is a greedy bastard" idea).

Now, the Spurs must have thought they could have Javtokas stand by while those offers waited for a week. They had to have - or else they're foolhardy. Something went wrong in the couple days surrounding the beginning of free agent contract signing and either he thought the offers were off the board entirely and he signed with Pan, or he was a little ticked that the Spurs took a massive and unexpected turn in negotiations and he took a better offer to play elsewhere ('better' = anywhere). In both cases, a lot of fault lies with the Spurs org, if more so in the first case.

This no longer has to do with "is Javtokas better than Elson"? That's a moot point now. The question is, "Will the Spurs have enough capable players in uniform?" And, if they don't, then I fail to see how it's anybody's fault but their own.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 12:41 PM

My presumption at this point is that there is very little difference in talent level in the Butler/Javtokas/Elson triad. If there are variances in experience and upside, then fine.

If you presume there is very little difference in talent level, then why are you mad at the front office for not handing Jav and his agent a blank check? Because that's about the only argument you have at this point.

If there is only a marginal gap in talent levels between the three, then you can't expect the Spurs front office to be willing to overpay one of the three just because you've told all your friends how great the guy is going to be when he comes to the Spurs based off some video clips against weak Euro competition.

This no longer has to do with "is Javtokas better than Elson"? That's a moot point now. The question is, "Will the Spurs have enough capable players in uniform?" And, if they don't, then I fail to see how it's anybody's fault but their own.

If September 1 gets here and we still don't have any centers, feel free to bitch. Until then you just look like a bitter Javtokas cheerleader.

infinite styles

07-15-2006, 12:47 PM

I think that everybody is making assumptions in what went down between the FO and Jav and his agent. To me its nobody's fault, Jav felt he had a better opportunity and the Spurs felt obligated to go with players that have actually played in the NBA and don't need a half or full season to adjust to a culture shock. If I was running the team and I had arguably the best player in the league in his prime I would go with experience over a project with potential. When it comes to Butler and Elson you've seen them play and know how they play against the same players you play against. With Jav you just don't know. Highlights are great but they aren't against the same people you play against.

Money had something to do with it on both sides cause it always does. The Spurs know what they want and know what they want to pay for it. Everybody loved Malik when he was on the cheap but hated him when he got money. Rasho did good for a minute but with what they were paying him wouldn't have been worth it and would have strapped the team for a couple more years. Unlike the Knicks the Spurs management will try not to keep over spending on average talent just because others want them too.

Nobody wanted Nazr back including me and I feel like if we would have had to spend the full MLE on him we would have been in worse shape than what everybody thinks. Imagine you give Nazr the MLE then what. What do you do after that. You have one center, no money and possibly two more holes to fill with LLE money. I like the moves the Spurs have made. When you start to look at the other teams and the moves they make you start to try to force the hand and make irrational decisions. We still have the big three and major contributors with championship experience. After that all you need is servicable role players that understand team concept and bust their ass.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 12:48 PM

If you presume there is very little difference in talent level, then why are you mad at the front office for not handing Jav and his agent a blank check? Because that's about the only argument you have at this point.

Ag, like a lot of people on this board, you have a talent for creating straw men arguments. Where did I say they should have presented him with a blank check? He would be offered the Butler money, if it were matched. I was ticked for a while that they selected Elson over Jak. What I'm talking about now has nothing to do with that, which doesn't say much for your reading comprehension.

If there is only a marginal gap in talent levels between the three, then you can't expect the Spurs front office to be willing to overpay one of the three just because you've told all your friends how great the guy is going to be when he comes to the Spurs based off some video clips against weak Euro competition.

Now you're either being willfully obtuse or you just can't read. Listen to me: THIS IS AN ISSUE OF HAVING TWO CENTERS NEXT YEAR TO PLAY WITH DUNCAN. I don't care if that is Elson/Butler or if it is Elson/Javtokas. What has happened, however, is the Plan B IS NOT THERE. I'm questioning WHY.

If September 1 gets here and we still don't have any centers, feel free to bitch. Until then you just look like a bitter Javtokas cheerleader.

I feel like I'm talking to someone who barely speaks English and has never even heard of the language.

furry_spurry

07-15-2006, 12:53 PM

I think the choice the Spurs made was very clear. They had he MLE and decided first that they needed a real center. Going into the season with Tim as your biggest guy is not a good move. They wanted someone short term and went after Elson. To get him here and to prevent the matching, they are overpaying him at $3M per year, but they would rather do that than get someone long term. With the money left, they decided they would rather take a stab at Butler than sign Javtokas. They took a gamble. Maybe they thought Robertas would wait- who knows- but they took that gamble. If the Knicks do not match and Butler comes, people will think it was a great move. If the Knicks match and the Spurs end up with only Elson out of the three, people will be mad and say it was stupid. We will know which in a few days. Similarly, Spurs traded Rasho and took the gamble that Nazr would stay. He didn't. Now in hindsight, some of the people who liked the Rasho trade, question it.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 12:57 PM

Mr. Body, I get the same sense about you and the 'english language'.

Now you're either being willfully obtuse or you just can't read. Listen to me: THIS IS AN ISSUE OF HAVING TWO CENTERS NEXT YEAR TO PLAY WITH DUNCAN. I don't care if that is Elson/Butler or if it is Elson/Javtokas. What has happened, however, is the Plan B IS NOT THERE. I'm questioning WHY.

So, if the Spurs can have their two centers for a combined 5 million, but they would have had to have spend 7 million for the two to make Jav one of them, tell me again why they should have gone through with it.

And keep in mind, that's not a true 7 million, it's really closer to 10 million with where they are with respect to the salary cap.

The simple fact is the Spurs didn't feel Jav was worth what his agent was asking, and they didn't buy his agent's bluff. That doesn't give you free reign to *blame* the front office for it not working out, as you seem hellbent on doing.

As for reading comprehension, you aren't even making the same argument as you made back on page 2, so I guess you could stand to do a little bit of learning about consistency as well.

T Park

07-15-2006, 12:58 PM

Now in hindsight, some of the people who liked the Rasho trade, question it.

Not at all.

Getting rid of that stiff makes the offseason all the more worthwhile.

Gmafb.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 01:02 PM

Agg-- please find me where it said Javtokas was asking for too much money and that was anywhere close to $5M/yr. Your argument shores against an entirely fabricated notion.

Quadzilla99

07-15-2006, 01:05 PM

Javtokas never asked for $4 million if that's what he saying. $7 million for two centers when Elson is asking for $3 million means Jav is asking for $4million.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 01:08 PM

You are calling our front office a failure for not signing Javtokas. Media reports indicate the reason he isn't with the team is due to the finances of the contract.

So, if you're blaming the front office, and the front office felt he was asking too much, you're in essence blaming them for not ponying up for the guy.

Where else is there to go with all the whining about Jav not signing here being the fault of our front office?

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 01:10 PM

Agg-- please find me where it said Javtokas was asking for too much money and that was anywhere close to $5M/yr. Your argument shores against an entirely fabricated notion.

I never said he was. I'm saying it would have cost more to land Javtokas + one of either Elson or Butler than it will should we land Elson and Butler.

I thought that was pretty clear in my argument, I apologize if not.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 01:26 PM

Aggie, you have nothing to stand on. You've made up this idea that Jak was asking for too much money, when it seems pretty apparent he would have been happy with what Butler received. How could he not, anyway - the only other offer he got was from Pan for much less. Butler was offered slightly less than Oberto gets, and by all indications Jak would have accepted it.

The argument we're making is that it was either Elson/Butler or Elson/Javtokas FOR THE SAME AMOUNT OF MONEY. Either one set or the other for approx. $5M/yr. If Butler got matched, the Spurs would have turned around and offered that money to Javtokas. IT'S RIGHT THERE IN ALL THE ARTICLES.

What went wrong was Javtokas wasn't around to be their insurance if/when Butler got matched, which means we're facing the prospect of going in with Elson, and Elson only, next year. They didn't cover their bases well enough.

objective

07-15-2006, 01:32 PM

It's been widely reported the Spurs offered the MLE, and that Rudoy was asking for more than the LLE.

sorry, where has that been reported?

nowhere that I've seen.

Spurs aren't even offering the LLE to anyone, probably because of luxury tax issues.

spurster

07-15-2006, 01:36 PM

Who knows what Javtokas was offered? At this point, I don't think he is worth more than LLE money given that he has zero NBA experience. We might not like Elson, but at least he a proven (albeit mediocre) NBA center.

I don't really see a problem as far as bigs are concerned. Nazr and Rasho are replaced by Bonner and Elson or Butler. If need be, the Spurs will pick up Sean Marks or a lookalike.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 01:48 PM

I don't really see a problem as far as bigs are concerned. Nazr and Rasho are replaced by Bonner and Elson or Butler. If need be, the Spurs will pick up Sean Marks or a lookalike.

Spurster, my issue now isn't Elson vs. Javtokas. RJ isn't coming. It's over and I've moved on. I like Butler very much, Elson is adequate. My issue is that we're insanely close to only having Elson. Maybe that was inevitable, but going in with Elson and Marks is going to be a serious problem. Bonner's not going to be any help here. He's an energy player (read: little talent) who can shoot well.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 01:48 PM

Aggie, you have nothing to stand on. You've made up this idea that Jak was asking for too much money, when it seems pretty apparent he would have been happy with what Butler received. How could he not, anyway - the only other offer he got was from Pan for much less. Butler was offered slightly less than Oberto gets, and by all indications Jak would have accepted it.

Look in the mirror? Nothing to stand on? The only thing that is out there in articles is that Jav and his agent both said what the Spurs were offering wasn't enough.

Hence, it's still about the almighty dollar, and you're still a bitter little Javtokas nut rider who doesn't get to see his white knight ride into the AT&T Center this fall.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 01:50 PM

Aggie, you've still failed to provide any facts to this conversation. We know you hate Javtokas. For whatever reason, I don't know. You're probably of the contingent that immediately started hating Scola the moment the buyout came to light. If you want to believe the FO is peerless, squeaky clean, and does everything absolutely right, then that's your given right as an Aggie. There's really no need to continue this.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 02:21 PM

:lol

I don't hate Javtokas. Fuck, I had already sent several friends links to his highlight footage online a couple of days after the season ended.

I don't hate Scola either. Yes, I think he is a dumbass for agreeing to a contract with the terms for buyouts he did. Hate, no.

I was looking forward to Javtokas being a Spur this year, but I don't think he should automatically be handed the keys to the vault as far as pay goes.

Fuck, even Manu and Oberto got small deals for their initial contracts. I don't know why Rudoy or Jav were expecting or asking for more than a comparable deal as far as what those two got. The Spurs have shown that as a Euro coming in you're going to get a small deal from them, and if you prove you're worth it (Tony, Manu) then you'll be rewarded.

The only thing that disappoints me about Javtokas is his attitude. He's had two chances to come over now and in both instances has ended up staying in Europe over money.

If you think you belong in the league, step up to the plate, take what the Spurs have offered you, and prove you deserve more. I mean hell, the Spurs paid for all his surgeries, rehab, etc. already. Do you realize how much that must have cost? Probably 200-300K alone considering how fucked up he was after his wreck.

And now you've got his agent asking for more than the LLE, when we don't even know if his body (as ripped as he is) can handle the beating of an NBA season. The Spurs were prudent for not overspending on someone whose physical endurance is still somewhat questionable.

Like I said, if Javtokas wants to play he should take the contract they offered, come over, and prove he's worth more.

MannyIsGod

07-15-2006, 02:27 PM

Dude, Body. All you have is speculation but you keep saying nobody except you has facts. What the fuck?

ducks

07-15-2006, 02:28 PM

body needs to get laid

objective

07-15-2006, 02:30 PM

even Manu and Oberto got small deals for their initial contracts. I don't know why Rudoy or Jav were expecting or asking for more than a comparable deal as far as what those two got.

there's nothing that's been credibly reported that he was asking for more than Oberto. Rudoy knows the market for back-up big men without NBA experience. And that was set by Oberto. Same thing is about to happen with Garbajosa in Toronto who will make 0.5-1.5 more per year than Oberto if news accounts are to be believed.

I haven't seen the LLE number reported anywhere. What is true is that the Spurs aren't offering the LLE to anybody.

He's had two chances to come over now and in both instances has ended up staying in Europe over money.

the first time was about the lockout. Lots of informed people believed a lockout was coming. He didn't want to be caught in limbo AND had the extra motivation of staying in Lithuania so his wife could finish university. If he wanted the money he wouldn't have re-upped with Rytas for last year. Rytas can't even make a almost competitive offer to keep him for next year and acknoweledged that months ago.

Quadzilla99

07-15-2006, 02:34 PM

Oberto getting $2.5 million for 3 years definitely didn't help in the Jav/Scola negotiations.

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 02:51 PM

:lol

We're still on about this?

Look, the Spurs never offerred anything more than the LLE. That's clear. The offseason plan started out like this:

Przybilla - full MLE, Javtokas - LLE

Both parties rejected these deals, so the Spurs went looking for other big men to whom they could give the MLE. The next plan was probably something like this:

Mourning/Butler or Mourning/Elson for the MLE.

Keep in mind they were speaking with all three parties at this time. Mourning was given the deadline to decide because they didn't want Elson or Butler signing with someone else while they were waiting for Zo to decide.

So Zo drops out and signing day comes around. What else can the Spurs do but go ahead with the deals they already have worked out with guys who can actually sign with other NBA teams? -- in Butler's case for more money. The only competition for Javtokas are non-NBA teams that won't give him any more money than the Spurs.

Javtokas might have ended up with MLE money and years had he waited another week. He didn't want to. Spurs could've had Javtokas if they offerred him an MLE deal Wednesday instead of Butler or Elson. They didn't want to.

C'est la vie.

picnroll

07-15-2006, 02:58 PM

Only quibble is Javtokas was probably being squeezed by the Greek team as well to sign a deal or it would be taken off the table, so for him it was bird in hand or bird in bush.

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 03:01 PM

Only quibble is Javtokas was probably being squeezed by the Greek team as well to sign a deal or it would be taken off the table, so for him it was bird in hand or bird in bush.Just as it was with the Spurs.

objective

07-15-2006, 03:07 PM

so . . . nowhere is this LLE info to be found? There's no offseason plan that I can find that lays that out.

what I do remember from June was speculation/reports either in the Express or in the foreign news sites about a 3 year deal for Javtokas, which would make him ineligible for the LLE.

The Spurs have still yet to offer an LLE deal to anyone that's been reported.

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 03:09 PM

If they talked to Przybilla and Javtokas at the same time, what could they possibly have offerred Javtokas?
what I do remember from June was speculation/reports either in the Express or in the foreign news sites about a 3 year deal for Javtokas, which would make him ineligible for the LLE.Foreign report from the Javtokas camp before the negotiation period. It makes since that they wold reject an LLE offer if they were expecting the "2+1" that was reported.

objective

07-15-2006, 03:15 PM

If they talked to Przybilla and Javtokas at the same time, what could they possibly have offerred Javtokas?

I'm thinking they weren't going to offer Javtokas a deal if Pryzbilla accepted.

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 03:16 PM

Why not? The Spurs still needed two centers and signing Joel would've precluded Elson or Butler.

objective

07-15-2006, 03:21 PM

Why not? The Spurs still needed two centers and signing Joel would've precluded Elson or Butler.

I don't think it's clear that they needed 2 centers. They didn't even play 1 center against the mavs and their centers got marginal time against Sacramento. An alternative was that they knew Elson wasn't close to what Pryzbilla would give them (after all they offered Pryzbilla more for more years), and needed a second body to try and equal the production so they got Butler.

Quadzilla99

07-15-2006, 03:21 PM

C'est la vie.
I love it when Chumpdumper drops the french on 'em. I don't know why but I do. That's the 2nd time I've seen it.

Do the Knicks have any min. contracts? If they match, like I unfortunately think they will, they will have 3rd string center in James or Butler making a couple million a year.

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 03:26 PM

I don't think it's clear that they needed 2 centers. They didn't even play 1 center against the mavs and their centers got marginal time against Sacramento. An alternative was that they knew Elson wasn't close to what Pryzbilla would give them (after all they offered Pryzbilla more for more years), and needed a second body to try and equal the production so they got Butler.Um, we lost two centers, so we need two centers. The difference is the emphasis on athleticism.

Do the Knicks have any min. contracts? If they match like I unfortunately think they will they will have 3rd string center in James or Butler making a couple million a year.James actually has a full MLE deal that Zeke signed him to -- and now he's in full control of who gets the minutes. If he can't make a deal to clear the logjams at the PF and C spots, it becomes much more difficult to convince Dolan to spend $14 million on Butler.

exstatic

07-15-2006, 03:28 PM

Oberto getting $2.5 million for 3 years definitely didn't help in the Jav/Scola negotiations.
Oberto - open market commodity. Free agent.

Jav/Scola - exclusive negotiating rights and right of refusal. Draft picks.

Is the difference really THAT hard to understand?

Even if the situations were the same (and they're NOT), if anything, Oberto's underwhelming performance supports the Spurs position of caution and frugality with unproven Euros.

Quadzilla99

07-15-2006, 03:32 PM

Oberto - open market commodity. Free agent.

Jav/Scola - exclusive negotiating rights and right of refusal. Draft picks.

Is the difference really THAT hard to understand?

Even if the situations were the same (and they're NOT), if anything, Oberto's underwhelming performance supports the Spurs position of caution and frugality with unproven Euros.I'm just saying their agents probably mentioned it during negotiations. I'm not saying whether it was right to do so. The Spurs probably came back with the same argument you just posted.

objective

07-15-2006, 03:38 PM

Um, we lost two centers, so we need two centers. The difference is the emphasis on athleticism.

did the Spurs play both of those centers in the 05 playoffs? No, they just played one. So in their championship run they went with one guy. That one guy just didn't perform as well the next year.

Oberto - open market commodity. Free agent.

Jav/Scola - exclusive negotiating rights and right of refusal. Draft picks.

Is the difference really THAT hard to understand?

what's so hard to understand that both FAs and 2nd round draftees can refuse NBA deals and stay in Europe? No difference there. Neither is bound by salary rankings like 1st rounders. Only difference is that one can sign with anyone and the other can't. So what?

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 03:39 PM

did the Spurs play both of those centers in the 05 playoffs? No, they just played one.So you propose an 8-man team?

That would buy some tractors....

objective

07-15-2006, 03:43 PM

So you propose an 8-man team?

That would buy some tractors....

lol, pointing out that Rasho was nowhere to be found in the 05 playoffs (along with Massenburg) equates to proposing an 8 man team.

exstatic

07-15-2006, 03:44 PM

what's so hard to understand that both FAs and 2nd round draftees can refuse NBA deals and stay in Europe? No difference there. Neither is bound by salary rankings like 1st rounders. Only difference is that one can sign with anyone and the other can't. So what?
That's a big difference. For instance, if Butler had received no offers, he would have had to either play for $900K in NY or go to Europe. Because he can negotiate with multiple teams, his price more than doubled.

As for Euros, I recognize that either FAs or second rounders can refuse a deal and go to europe, BUT, the major difference is that FAs can negotiate with multiple NBA teams and drive their price up. They have multiple avenues into the NBA where the draft pick has only one. The Spurs (mistakenly) paid Oberto $2.5M because he probably had other NBA offers. Jav and Scola don't have that option.

strangeweather

07-15-2006, 04:20 PM

The Spurs (mistakenly) paid Oberto $2.5M because he probably had other NBA offers. Jav and Scola don't have that option.
Oberto also had a much longer resume (and a higher pay scale) than Javtokas in Europe.

It may be that Javtokas's agent thought Oberto set the market value, despite the points you've made to the contrary. The Spurs thought it was the LLE. Result: impasse.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 04:23 PM

Only difference is that one can sign with anyone and the other can't. So what?

The very obvious 'so what' is that free agents can negotiate deals with multiple NBA teams and increase their market value.

Those second rounders you speak of are stuck talking to the team that drafted them.

BIG difference.

objective

07-15-2006, 04:24 PM

The Spurs (mistakenly) paid Oberto $2.5M because he probably had other NBA offers.

He was said to be close to signing with Memphis when the Spurs dropped the Scola negotiations and swooped in to sign Oberto

Quadzilla99

07-15-2006, 04:27 PM

It may be that Javtokas's agent thought Oberto set the market value, despite the points you've made to the contrary. The Spurs thought it was the LLE. Result: impasse.That's exactly what I was saying. That deal may have put their side on one position and the Spurs on the other side, on your position. You keep saying your side is right. But they would probably refer to the Oberto deal and say look what you did here etc. etc.

I'm not saying who is right just what each side may have been thinking.

FromWayDowntown

07-15-2006, 06:39 PM

I still think that there's a missing step in the arguments that Mr. Body and others are making here. My point in my earlier post is one about relative values. I think it's quite plausible that the Spurs made a calculation in deciding how to dole out offers after the initial talks with Przybilla and Mourning. That calculation went something like: in this market, the 2 we can live with are Butler and Elson. We'll offer both and see what happens. They made Javtokas a third option, but I think they decided that if Javtokas wasn't willing to take what was offered, the difference between Javtokas and anyone else who might be available is marginal. They may end up being wrong about it, but it sure looks to me like that was how this went down. They asked Javtokas to cool out and see what happened, understanding that he might not and accepting the fact that they might have to look to a domestic player to fill that other big man slot. But I suspect that they've concluded that the difference between Javtokas and another domestic big man is fairly close to zero.

If that's true, there is no miscommunication and the only error might arise in a talent evaluation sense, but that's something that we won't know until RJ plays a season in the NBA. For all we know, the Spurs think they can get sufficient contributions -- contributions that would at least be commensurate with what they might expect from Javtokas -- from someone like Lonny Baxter or Jake Voskuhl (I'm not suggesting that either is a target, just trying to provide examples) -- and are willing to explore those avenues if the Butler and/or Elson offers are matched.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 07:04 PM

FWD, this sounds very reasonable. We're trying to guess at what happened behind closed doors. At this point I'm very afraid we wind up with Elson and only Elson. They must have thought the chance for Butler was very high. I can accept that - I hope so.

MannyIsGod

07-15-2006, 07:15 PM

Godamn dude. At least 3 people have tried to tell you what FWD did and you finally got it.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 07:19 PM

Godamn dude. At least 3 people have tried to tell you what FWD did and you finally got it.

July 15, 2006. Another rare day where Manny and AHF are thinking the same thing :lol

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 07:20 PM

Godamn dude. At least 3 people have tried to tell you what FWD did and you finally got it.

I was only hypothesizing what happened. His account is markedly different than the "RJ was a GREEDY BASTARD and WOULDN'T TAKE the MLE HE WAS OFFERED" hysterics some of you guys are pounding. I'm willing to accept his views because it makes a lot more sense.

For the record, I don't think you or AHF have been close to right on this issue at all.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 07:22 PM

But I suspect that they've concluded that the difference between Javtokas and another domestic big man is fairly close to zero.

However, if this is true, FWD, then why not sign the sure thing in RJ rather than chase after RFAs? It must come back to Javtokas being lowballed, them trying to get him to accept close to the LLE, which to me is unacceptable.

... And we go round n round...

ChumpDumper

07-15-2006, 07:23 PM

It must come back to the Spurs not having as high an opinon of Javtokas' worth as message board posters.

timvp

07-15-2006, 07:28 PM

MannyIsGod

07-15-2006, 07:30 PM

Man, I'm too tired to go back and quote you my posts, but if you'd like to go back and reread them - slowly this time - maybe you'll see I've made the exact same posts FWD did.

Kori Ellis

07-15-2006, 07:33 PM

It must come back to the Spurs not having as high an opinon of Javtokas' worth as message board posters.

True.

It was the same for Scola.

I believe the scenario was like this ... the initial talks with Javtokas included numbers that were lower than he had anticipated but no official offer was extended. When Javtokas/agent scoffed at the discussion, negotiations were stalled. The Spurs simultaneous looked around at other options and decided to make a stab at two restricted free agents. The Spurs called Jav/agent and said they were going in another direction. Jav's agent said in the press they were "surprised". Spurs probably thought Jav would wait around until they finished with RFA's to see what would happen. He didn't and jumped at an opportunity with Greece. Greece only gave him an NBA out clause through yesterday. He is officially signed in Greece. End of Jav to the Spurs discussions for 06-07.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 07:35 PM

However, if this is true, FWD, then why not sign the sure thing in RJ rather than chase after RFAs? It must come back to Javtokas being lowballed, them trying to get him to accept close to the LLE, which to me is unacceptable.

... And we go round n round...

1. Where is Air Gay coming from in this situation?

2. Air Gay (Jefferson) is overrated, so I'm glad we didn't think about signing him.

3. Javtokas getting low balled is your opinion, not a fact, and until he comes to the NBA and proves his worth one way or another, you are sorely misguided in saying that we lowballed him.

them trying to get him to accept close to the LLE, which to me is unacceptable.

... And we go round n round...

You could have saved everyone a lot of time and just said you've got your head too far up Javtokas' ass to be reasonable about him.

Just curious, what do you think was 'acceptable'? The whole MLE?

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-15-2006, 07:37 PM

to me is unacceptable.

Herb Rudoy = Mr. Body?

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 08:01 PM

True.

It was the same for Scola.

I believe the scenario was like this ... the initial talks with Javtokas included numbers that were lower than he had anticipated but no official offer was extended. When Javtokas/agent scoffed at the discussion, negotiations were stalled. The Spurs simultaneous looked around at other options and decided to make a stab at two restricted free agents. The Spurs called Jav/agent and said they were going in another direction. Jav's agent said in the press they were "surprised". Spurs probably thought Jav would wait around until they finished with RFA's to see what would happen. He didn't and jumped at an opportunity with Greece. Greece only gave him an NBA out clause through yesterday. He is officially signed in Greece. End of Jav to the Spurs discussions for 06-07.

Peace be unto you. This is exactly what I think happened.

FromWayDowntown

07-15-2006, 10:02 PM

However, if this is true, FWD, then why not sign the sure thing in RJ rather than chase after RFAs? It must come back to Javtokas being lowballed, them trying to get him to accept close to the LLE, which to me is unacceptable.

... And we go round n round...

You've still not gotten my point, at least in that regard. My supposition is that the Spurs think Elson > Javtokas and that Butler > Javtokas. I suspect, furthermore that the Spurs think Javtokas <= the remaining unrestricted free agent big men.

If you want to quibble with their talent evaluations, fine. I'm inclined to buy their view of relative talents because someone pays them obscene amounts of money to make those decisions and they've generally been pretty good in their calls.

But assuming the last of my premises is correct (the Spurs think Javtokas <= other UFAs) then why on Earth would it ever make sense for the Spurs to offer him anything beyond what they would offer those sorts of players?

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 10:08 PM

FromWayDowntown

07-15-2006, 10:13 PM

I don't think they were. They would offer Javtokas only as much as they offered Butler. Maybe a little less, but that's why they wanted him to stay tuned until Butler was matched or wasn't.

If you're saying Javtokas is evaluated as worse than the rest of the UFAs, that I doubt. They've stated they would have wanted to revive negotiations with him once Elson or Butler fell through, which indicates he's rated higher than anybody left (the Lorenzen Wrights of the world).

I'm not sure I'd make that deduction from what has been said. And I can't see this front office, in this climate, overpaying a guy like Javtokas. If they had offered him, for instance, the LLE and then caved in to give him some part of the MLE, they'd be setting an awfully bad precedent. As much as the front office is castigated in some corners for being cheap, I can't see a desperation move with a guy like Javtokas, which would result in the Spurs being seen as frivolous when pushed to the point of desperation. Like I say, I suspect that the Spurs believe that the replacement value of Javtokas lingers somewhere around the existing talent level among the remaining free agents. And that makes me wonder why we're spending so much time discussing this.

Mr. Body

07-15-2006, 10:43 PM

We're not sure how much the initial offer was, whether it was around the LLE or not. Offering him more at some later point wouldn't be seen as 'caving'; it would simply be the next stage in a negotiation. The Spurs put the negotiations on hold in order to go another direction with the RFAs, desiring for him to wait. If one of them got matched, they would continue negotiations with him.

The other point I disagree with you is in ranking the players. I believe they do not consider Elson as better than Butler or Javtokas, but see him as the more experienced player who can start right away, and possibly through the season. (I believe at that point they will try to trade the last year of his contract.) The ranking, as I see it, is:

1. Butler
2. Javtokas
3. Elson

A better way to look at it may be, there was the experienced Elson, and then a pick of Butler or Javtokas (Butler might be ranked much higher than Javtokas). Not getting their number 1, they'd go for number 2. They always knew they'd get #3.

Anyway, we'll never know. At this point we can only hope they get Butler.

Supergirl

07-15-2006, 11:05 PM

A few additional thoughts;
1. Whether or not Elson, Butler, or Javtokas is better big picture, we won't know for a couple years. Whether or not Javtokas will be best for NEXT YEAR, we can probably predict that the Spurs management is right in guessing he won't - simply because the learning curve for European players is usually a couple years. I might expect Oberto to better than Javtokas (or Scola) in his first year, simply because he has a year ahead of them in adjusting.

2. When the Spurs first started drafting foreign players, I think that it was assumed that of course they would jump at the opportunity to play in the NBA, because the NBA was so much better than the rest of the world. They had the Dream Team, and had always dominated the world basketball scene. But in the last few years, sparked by our own Manu Ginobili, things have changed. It doesn't seem that foreign players are as eager to come over here, and I think the perception has changed, so that now other teams are considered equally viable for gold medals and success. This may hurt the Spurs in the short term, since they've banked on a couple different foreign players in the past few years. So far the last two (Scola, Javtokas) haven't worked out, but of course the two before that (Parker, Manu) have worked out splendidly.

furry_spurry

07-15-2006, 11:49 PM

I believe the scenario was like this ... the initial talks with Javtokas included numbers that were lower than he had anticipated but no official offer was extended. When Javtokas/agent scoffed at the discussion, negotiations were stalled. The Spurs simultaneous looked around at other options and decided to make a stab at two restricted free agents. The Spurs called Jav/agent and said they were going in another direction. Jav's agent said in the press they were "surprised". Spurs probably thought Jav would wait around until they finished with RFA's to see what would happen. He didn't and jumped at an opportunity with Greece. Greece only gave him an NBA out clause through yesterday. He is officially signed in Greece. End of Jav to the Spurs discussions for 06-07.
Good explanation. I DO think that the Spurs expressed a great deal of interest in Robertas and that led him to believe- possibly incorrectly- that the Spurs valued him more than they apparently did. Maybe, he felt a little bit "led on." I also believe that the Spurs anticipated having a starting center in place and being able to bring Robertas in as a back-up, but that did not materialize when Rasho was traded- Nazr left- and Przybilla said no. I am assuming the Spurs wanted someone who had NBA starting experience, even if that was Francisco Elson. I am also guessing Tim wanted someone to play center.

Aggie Hoopsfan

07-16-2006, 02:31 AM

I believe they do not consider Elson as better than Butler or Javtokas, but see him as the more experienced player who can start right away, and possibly through the season.

When have the Spurs ever cared about finding someone to be a hoss on day 1 of the season relative to what said player can give them in the playoffs? Pretty much never, at least in the Tim Duncan era.

Fucking get over it already, we know you think Javtokas is the shit, fine. Just say so instead of all the veiled shots at the front office and what not.

Solid D

07-16-2006, 02:55 AM

So far, we know option A was Ben Wallace, option B was Joel Przybilla, option C was Alonzo Mourning, option D and E were Francisco Elson and Jackie Butler. We assume option F is Javtokas, but we don't know.

After Butler is matched (:(), if they have someone else lined up then we'll never know who real option F was.

You may be right in assuming Butler is matched, but I really don't see the Knicks matching. Isiah has been saying he wants to see Eddie Curry flourish and signing Butler locks the Knicks into 15 contracts with no options other than trading or cutting. They want to run more uptempo and they've already got 3 guys who can play Center (Curry, James, and Frye). If they sign Butler, the "No Vacancy" sign goes up in Qyntel Woods' face.

BTW, Malik Rose's $6.5M this year and $7.1M next year must be a real choker about now...and Mo Taylor losing time to all these other Bigs would seem a pity, seeing as how the Knicks will pay him $9.75M in his final year in 2006-07.