Back to Saddam's WMD's

[Yonivore]

In December 1998, President Bill Clinton ordered missile strikes on specific targets in Iraq after Saddam Hussein reneged on a promise to cooperate with UNSCOM inspections. The missiles targeted sites known or thought to have connections to Saddam's hidden efforts to continue his WMD development programs, including chemical, biological, and nuclear weapons. These strikes, the second in as many months, put an end to UN inspections until the US threatened an invasion almost exactly four years later.

Clinton told the press on December 18th (http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/stories/1998/12/17/impeachment/transcript.html) of that year the Pentagon had selected the targets carefully, especially the presidential sites. After the invasion toppled Saddam in 2003, however, conventional wisdom has it that Saddam had shelved all his WMD programs, and therefore these strikes must not have hit any R&D assets, but rather just constituted a headache for the dictator. However, at the same time that Clinton held his press conference, Saddam issued orders that seem to indicate a high-level panic about the effects of the strikes (document ISGP-2003-00300134-X (http://fmso.leavenworth.army.mil/index.htm)):


Republic of Iraq Administrative office of the Presidency In the name of God, Most Gracious Most Merciful

Number:M.Kh. 1/4/5373
Date:18/12/1998
Top Secret and Immediate ORDER

The President had ordered,

To form committees from the Health Ministry, Military Industrialization Commission, the Atomic Energy Organization, and the IIS, whose duties will be:

To inspect all sites bombarded by the enemy. To assure that no contamination or radioactivity are present (TN: in the areas that were hit), in particular and with utmost urgency the presidential sites. To collect all debris present, and to coordinate with Dr. Muna Al -Jubori, School of Science instructor at the University of Baghdad.

(Signed)
Ahmed Hussein Khudayr
The Chief of the Administrative Office of the Presidency
18/12/1998

Copy to:
The Presidency of the Republic, IIS, Office of the IIS Director, with regards and for the same purpose. These committees will have permission to visit those sites.

The Health Ministry/Office of the Minister, The Military Industrialization Commission, Office of the MIC Director, Atomic Energy Agency, Office of the Agency Director,for the same purpose, with regards.

Also copy to Dr.Muna Al-Jubori , Science instructor at the University of Baghdad, for the same purpose, with regards.
Two possible explanations exist for this memo. One could be that Saddam was afraid we had hit him with nuclear, chemical, or biological weapons in this strike. It seems a bit farfetched, however, since we had no tactical need to do so; if we wanted to really do damage, we simply could have sent a wave of bombers across Baghdad and hit a lot more targets with conventional weapons. He also had to know that any use of those kinds of weapons by the US would have resulted in a firestorm of criticism and could have caused the fall of the Clinton administration, already hanging by a thread at that point.

The only other explanation was that the missiles really did hit WMD facilities and that our intelligence had selected good targets for the limited missile strikes. The emphasis on the urgency of checking the presidential sites seems to confirm this. Saddam had attempted to exclude a number of facilities on the premise that they were his personal palaces and not subject to UNSCOM inspections. That, in fact, was what caused Saddam to bar inspectors in late 1998, and what prompted the missile attacks.

Someone very high up worried about nuclear and at least chemical contamination at these presidential sites. That anxiety seems to have come from the knowledge of what those sites actually held.

But, this isn't the only reference to chemical operations in 1998, either. Document ISGP-2003-00300159-X has a summary of several documents regarding Iraqi Air Force capabilities and training from February 1998, and chemicals come up frequently. Here's a good representative sample:


Page 3: A hand written report about a visit on Ali Air Base, dated February 3rd 1998. This report is signed by: Brigadier Haytham Natehk Saleem Imperative Air Force Chemical Detachment.

1. The locations for the base units: ...

• Chemical warehouses:

1. The assigned for incoming is good but needs to be organized and maintained.

2. The supply percentage for the protective masks; is higher than the set percentage of 65%, comparing to the number of individuals in the base.

3. The records are available but needs to be maintained, and regularly recorded.

2. The chemical detachment:

• Training side:

1. Training memorandum: A special memorandum has been designed for the chemical detachment; which needs to be classified according to the memorandum of the imperative Air Force Chemical Detachment.

2. Training approaches: Training approaches has been designed for the chemical detachment, and non-chemical units in base.

3. Training area: Well organized.
For a military that had no chemical weapons, they had a lot of activity going on in these "Chemical Detachments".

[ChumpDumper]

Where are they now?

[Yonivore]

Where are they now?
South Lebanon, for all I know.

But, surely, you have to admit the documents are incriminating. No?

[boutons_]

Yoni-dawg won't give up, but he's always barkin up the wrong tree.

In spring 2003, there was no immediate, compelling reason to invade Iraq other than the US presidential campaign. This Iraq-war-as-re-election tactic was confirmed by dubya's padded-crotch flyboy "mission accomplished" theatre-for-rabble-dumbshits a couple months later.

Saddam and his miltary had been castrated by Poppy multi-lateral coaltion and General Powell 12 years earlier, and nailed down by US troops, satellite/radar surveilance, embargos, flyovers between the first Gulf war and 2003.

Iraq posed no immediate threat to the USA or even the M/E, compared to the M/E instability now that the Repug unmitigated, unqualified Iraq disaster has provoked.

[01Snake]

Saddam and his miltary had been castrated by Poppy multi-lateral coaltion and General Powell 12 years earlier, and nailed down by US troops, satellite/radar surveilance, embargos, flyovers between the first Gulf war and 2003.



Hmm...then why again did Clinton bomb them? If they were "castrated" by Gulf War I, what were the targets Clinton was talking about in 98'??

[Yonivore]

Hmm...then why again did Clinton bomb them? If they were "castrated" by Gulf War I, what were the targets Clinton was talking about in 98'??
Better yet, what was Saddam talking about in the document regardin the '98 bombing?

[boutons_]

If the Iraqis weren't castrated and had WMD, where was Saddam's miliatary might, his vaunted Republican Guard, his scary WMD threatening the USA with immediate distruction when the US threw the shit at his fan during the invasion?

There was nothing there, nothing.

Quit going back to 1998, Clinton, and all that old shit.

The Repug's IMMEDIATE THREAT to the USA, requiring an IMMEDIATE US military invasion as THE ONLY OPTION, was dated March 2003, NOT 5+ years before.

[Nesterofish]

Hmm...then why again did Clinton bomb them? If they were "castrated" by Gulf War I, what were the targets Clinton was talking about in 98'??
Clinton bombed Iraq to draw attention away from his depravity.

[ChumpDumper]

I'm not convinced our intel during 1998 was all that great either.

My point is that if you're going to make this war about WMDs, it was an abject failure. You don't want to go there.

[Yonivore]

I'm not convinced our intel during 1998 was all that great either.

My point is that if you're going to make this war about WMDs, it was an abject failure. You don't want to go there.
Well, first, it was about more than WMD.

Second, what was Saddam Hussein talking about in the letter?

Damn, when you adopt an article of faith, you won't be swayed. Got to admire the consistency. Even in the face of mounting evidence to the contrary.

[ChumpDumper]

If you are going to pimp WMDs as a reason to go to war, you have to accept the it was a horrible failure not finding or securing any WMDs.

I have yet to see you do that.

[boutons_]

"it was about more than WMD."

You fucking dishonest, revisionist liar.

WMD was the entire justificaiton for the Repug war.

Nuclear: the aluminum tubes, the African yellowcake (dickhead viciously going after Wilson because Wilson DARED to doubt the yellowcake story)

Biological: Powell going dramatically to the UN for a final vote with "irreftuable" evidence that the trucks were mobile bioweapons labs (althouth the CIA already knew that was bullshit).

The UN inspectors trying to find WMD, WMD, WMD.

Saddam was either:

1. going to find miraculous to deliver WMD right into the US heartland and/or

2. he was going to give WMD to terrorists.

WMD! WMD! WMD! WMD! WMD!

The entire justification for the Repug fiasco was WMD.

[Yonivore]

If you are going to pimp WMDs as a reason to go to war, you have to accept the it was a horrible failure not finding or securing any WMDs.

I have yet to see you do that.
If you're going to pimp your opposition to the war on the belief that Saddam Hussein did not have WMD's nor a connection with al Qaeda you'll have to accept you were wrong.

[ChumpDumper]

My contention is even if he had them he would never use them on the US or its armed forces.

I was right.

Now where are they?

Will those who posess them use them on the US?

Go google up a blog telling me where they are and why we haven't invaded there yet.

[Yonivore]

My contention is even if he had them he would never use them on the US or its armed forces.

I was right.
You're disregarding his emerging relationship with al Qaeda, the attempts by Russia, France and Germany to get sanctions lifted, the OFF scandal. I think the U.S. saw and quickly emerging threat.


Now where are they?

Will those who posess them use them on the US?
I don't know. I suspect the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East will help resolve that.


Go google up a blog telling me where they are and why we haven't invaded there yet.
Sorry, I've searched. There's a lot of opinion on where they are...most say in Syria. Which, incidentally, is in the hot seat at the moment. Who knows, maybe the current conflict will cause Assad to cough them up.

We'll see.

I do know that Saddam Hussein no longer has them. But, for all we know, they're hidden Iraq undiscovered. It's a big country.

[Yonivore]

There is this to show that Saddam Hussein was operating outside his borders...

Another document released by the FMSO from the captured files of the Iraqi Intelligence Services shows that Uday Hussein, in 1999, ordered a series of bombings and assassinations in London, Iran, and in the autonomous areas of Iraq. Document ISGZ-2004-018948 shows a response from a Saddam Fedayeen operative to Uday himself outlining the plan, known as Operation Blessed July:


In the name of God the most merciful, the most compassionate Respectful Mr. in charge of Fedayeen Saddam

My respects and regards, Sir:

Referral to your Excellency’s orders on the days of 20-25/05/1999, to start planning from now on to perform special operations (assassinations/ bombings) for the centers and the traitor symbols in the fields of (London/ Iran/ Self ruled areas) and for coordination with the Intelligence service to secure deliveries, accommodations, and target guidance. Also, I would like to indicate here (according to the first directed operational plan) the explanations of all the orders and directives that have been issued to us by you during the first and the second meetings with your Excellency which lay the groundwork towards our achieving the goal .

1- Code name of the special operations (Tamooz Mubarak) [Blessed July].
2- The duties will be divided into two branches which are:

A- Bombings
B- Assassinations ...

5- Execution steps

A- Select (50) fedayeen martyrs according to required specifications.
B- Admit them in a seminar at the Intelligence School to prepare them for the required duties.
C- After passing the tests they will be selected for the targets as follows:

First: The first ten will work in the European field (London).
Second: The second ten will be working in the Iranian field.
Third: The third ten will be working in the Self ruled area.

D- After passing the final test the fedayeens will be sent as undercover passengers, each one according to his work site, for the purpose of preparations and to acquire from and coordinate with the Intelligence Apparatus and Mr.’Aiath

6- After completion of what was indicated in (5) above the major and general steps should be prepared for execution and are to be supervised by the respectful Mr. Supervisor [Commander] to determine his remarks.

7- Revisions of the plan, according to the [Supervisor’s] remarks, coordination, and description of the plans will be presented to Intelligence Apparatus Director as follows. ...

9- The study (execution plan) submitted to the respectful Mr. Commander to determine his final comments.

10- Reforming the plan after noticing any revisions or additions that need to be re-written.

11- The final plans, with timing, and the necessary fundamentals for execution, should be written in two copies. One copy for the higher authorities and the other copy to be kept with the working team until the orders are issued.

12- General subjects

A- The ex - order in the Jordanian field is cancelled.
B- The traitors must be followed (movements, residences, activities) at all fields at this time.
C- Discussion of the work possibilities at the Lebanese field.
D- Reminders of the usage of the death capsules (Penephedine) when members are captured at the European fields.
E- Any limitations that will arise… [Incomplete]

[At the bottom left is a hand-written note] The morning is a blessed verse, by the name of merciful God, their appointment is in the morning, and indeed the morning is near.
This clearly shows that the Iraqis intended to use its commandos as terrorists, primarily to attack former regime officials who defected to the West and ex-patriates working towards the overthrow of Saddam's dictatorship. Saddam had a long history of assassination attempts against his political foes; former PM Ayad Allawi almost lost a leg to Saddam's assassins in 1980.

Enough evidence shows that Saddam had plenty of connections to Islamist terrorism. Now we know that Saddam had every intention of using his fanatical commandos to commit terrorist acts abroad, under the direct control of his son Uday.

[ChumpDumper]

You're disregarding his emerging relationship with al Qaeda, the attempts by Russia, France and Germany to get sanctions lifted, the OFF scandal. I think the U.S. saw and quickly emerging threat.You're disregarding the fact he never used them against the US when he could have, and the fact that Saddam couldn't wipe his ass without us flying over him. All the Euros together coldn't get that lifted.
I don't know. I suspect the ongoing conflicts in the Middle East will help resolve that.Yeah with any luck whoever has these stockpiles will use them on us. I feel so much safer now. What a worthwhile war.
I do know that Saddam Hussein no longer has them. But, for all we know, they're hidden Iraq undiscovered. It's a big country.For all we know, they didn't exist at the time of the invasion. That's the whole point

[ChumpDumper]

There is this to show that Saddam Hussein was operating outside his borders...

Another document released by the FMSO from the captured files of the Iraqi Intelligence Services shows that Uday Hussein, in 1999, ordered a series of bombings and assassinations in London, Iran, and in the autonomous areas of Iraq. Document ISGZ-2004-018948 shows a response from a Saddam Fedayeen operative to Uday himself outlining the plan, known as Operation Blessed July:


This clearly shows that the Iraqis intended to use its commandos as terrorists, primarily to attack former regime officials who defected to the West and ex-patriates working towards the overthrow of Saddam's dictatorship. Saddam had a long history of assassination attempts against his political foes; former PM Ayad Allawi almost lost a leg to Saddam's assassins in 1980.

Enough evidence shows that Saddam had plenty of connections to Islamist terrorism. Now we know that Saddam had every intention of using his fanatical commandos to commit terrorist acts abroad, under the direct control of his son Uday.Anything in that blog about gassing the NY subway?

Nuking LA?

Poisoning Hetch Hecthy?

This is the stuff the administration had us shitting our pants about. Now all you can steal off blogs is that Saddam wanted to off some of his old enemies?

[Yonivore]

You're disregarding the fact he never used them against the US when he could have, and the fact that Saddam couldn't wipe his ass without us flying over him.
I believe he thought -- and probably had assurances to the same -- that Germany, Russia, and France would be able to stall any military action from the U.S. I literally believe he was caught with his pants down.

How else do you explain a three week defeat of the largest army in that part of the world?

All the Euros together coldn't get that lifted.
They were trying hard. And, they were trading with Iraq on the sly.


Yeah with any luck whoever has these stockpiles will use them on us. I feel so much safer now. What a worthwhile war.
I think the Islamo-fascist stranglehold on the Middle East is loosening. And, if that happens, it will have been a worthwhile effort.


For all we know, they didn't exist at the time of the invasion. That's the whole point
I certainly don't think you and I are in a position to know what the President and Saddam Hussein know. I believe they did. So did many other people, including people now singing your tune.

[Yonivore]

Anything in that blog about gassing the NY subway?

Nuking LA?

Poisoning Hetch Hecthy?

This is the stuff the administration had us shitting our pants about. Now all you can steal off blogs is that Saddam wanted to off some of his old enemies?
And, if that document surfaces, what will be your excuse then? Oh yeah, where are the WMDs.

[ChumpDumper]

I believe he thought -- and probably had assurances to the same -- that Germany, Russia, and France would be able to stall any military action from the U.S. I literally believe he was caught with his pants down.But not so much that he couldn't spirit every single WMD out of the country during an invasion. Nice logic
How else do you explain a three week defeat of the largest army in that part of the world?We did the exact same thing 12 years earlier when he was stronger.
They were trying hard. And, they were trading with Iraq on the sly.And?
I think the Islamo-fascist stranglehold on the Middle East is loosening. And, if that happens, it will have been a worthwhile effortI don't believe that for a second. If we left right now would it remain loose? Have we inspired the rank and file of the muslim world that much?
I certainly don't think you and I are in a position to know what the President and Saddam Hussein know. I believe they did. So did many other people, including people now singing your tune.I don't really see anyone who sang my tune.

And we have Saddam right now. Why aren't we torturing him to get the answers. Torture is so effective after all.

As it stands now: No WMDs. I'm all for finding them if they exist, but we certainly don't look like doing anything about finding them if they are outside Iraq and therefore an even greater threat than when they were in Saddam's hands.

So RE: WMDs. If they exist, we're less safe now. Hooray.

[ChumpDumper]

And, if that document surfaces, what will be your excuse then? Oh yeah, where are the WMDs.Not an excuse.

A valid question that your blogs can't help you answer.

If the WMDs exist and are now outside of Iraq, we failed in that regard.

Period.

[Yonivore]

But not so much that he couldn't spirit every single WMD out of the country during an invasion. Nice logic
You don't know that he did.


We did the exact same thing 12 years earlier when he was stronger.
No, we ran him back in to Iraq and it took longer. This time, we unseated him and destroyed his army in 21 days.


And?
They were succeeding.


I don't believe that for a second. If we left right now would it remain loose?
When's the last time you heard any Arab nation blame Islamic terrorists for starting a shooting war with Israel? Yeah, that's right...NEVER. The League of Arab nations can't agree on a position in the current conflict because the can agree on who's at fault.


Have we inspired the rank and file of the muslim world that much?
I believe we have.


I don't really see anyone who sang my tune.
The entire Clinton administration, and Congressional Democrats are all on record saying that Saddam Hussein had WMDs in the late 90's and early 00's. Hell, regime change was the official postion of the U.S.


And we have Saddam right now. Why aren't we torturing him to get the answers. Torture is so effective after all.
Because of people like you. I'm in favor of torturing the prick.


As it stands now: No WMDs. I'm all for finding them if they exist, but we certainly don't look like doing anything about finding them if they are outside Iraq and therefore an even greater threat than when they were in Saddam's hands.
I don't believe you know everything the U.S. is doing (except for what the NYTimes has leaked) ... nor do I. For all either of us knows, they've already been secured. I'm not sure you and I are in the need to know loop on the prosecution of this war. That's why we have the luxury of yakking back and forth about it.


So RE: WMDs. If they exist, we're less safe now. Hooray.
No necessarily.

[Yonivore]

Not an excuse.

A valid question that your blogs can't help you answer.

If the WMDs exist and are now outside of Iraq, we failed in that regard.

Period.
Maybe we have them or we know where they are and it doesn't serve our interests for that to be known. Even if it satisfies your ass.

[ChumpDumper]

For all either of us knows, they've already been secured.:lmao

Yeah, they want to keep that a big secret. Maybe by October.
No necessarily.Yes. Necessarily.

I'll put it to you in Rummyspeak. It's an unknown unknown.

If all you can come back with is "well you don't know either" and don't understand what that means, just shut up and wave your flag.

[ChumpDumper]

Maybe we have them or we know where they are and it doesn't serve our interests for that to be known. Even if it satisfies your ass.Yeah, I'll wait for October. It'll be useful along with announced redeployments.

[exstatic]

Now all you can steal off blogs is that Saddam wanted to off some of his old enemies?

Oh, snap.

PWN3D

[Yonivore]

http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/007516.php#trackbacks

Okay, there. Now, let's see who bothers to read and discuss.

[ChumpDumper]

Maybe if the author posted here....

He knows where the 120,000 liters of anthrax is, after all, right?