49 pick in draft gets 2 million if he completes his contract....

[ducks]

Leon Powe: Signs with Celtics

RotoWire.com Staff - RotoWire.com
Sunday, July 16, 2006
Update: The Celtics agreed to terms with Powe, the Boston Globe reports.

Recommendation: The No. 49 pick, acquired in a draft-night deal with Denver, received a deal almost identical to the partially guaranteed three-year contract given to Ryan Gomes, the No. 50 pick in the 2005 draft. Given the numbers for Gomes, Powe could earn approximately $2 million if he completes his contract. ``We have agreed to terms with Leon Powe, but the contract has not been signed yet," President Danny Ainge said. ``Leon is a low-post scorer and rebounder and a really tough kid. He plays with a lot of passion and enthusiasm. We like what we've seen. We think he has a good future." The team saw enough of that future in the now concluded Las Vegas Summer League to commit to a three-year deal with the 6-8 rookie form Cal.



49 pick completes his contract and makes 2 whole million dollars

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news?slug=rotowire-eonoweignswitheltics&prov=rotowire&type=lgns

[ChumpDumper]

It's a three year minimum deal.

$412,718

$687,456

$797,581

[boutons_]

This utterly fascinating tidbit is posted in Spurs forum because Denver is in the same conference as Spurs?

[Winnipeg_Spur]

I'm guessing this is a semi-veiled shot at Javtokas?

[exstatic]

I'm guessing this is a semi-veiled shot at Javtokas?
No, it's a semi-veiled shot at the Javotkas/Scola apologists. This is actually what second round picks usually earn, yet the LLE ($1.75M starting pay) is not good enough.

[TDMVPDPOY]

the guy we drafted traded to the bucks is also on that deal, they gave him a 2mill/3 year contract, and 500k to pay out his contract with the euro club.

[furry_spurry]

Somehow I doubt he has a team in Europe willing to pay him about $2M US for ONE season.

[Quadzilla99]

So this thread was started about Leon Powe and the Celtics just to carry on the Jav/Scola vs. Spurs FO argument?

[ChumpDumper]

Yes, it is de rigueur to argue the same point in at least three threads.

Bonus points if it can be maintained in other forums simultaneously.

[Mr. Body]

No, it's a semi-veiled shot at the Javotkas/Scola apologists. This is actually what second round picks usually earn, yet the LLE ($1.75M starting pay) is not good enough.

Because Powe has been playing in Euroleague playoffs and shutting down some of the best centers in Europe? :rolleyes

Powe's contract suggests absolutely nothing about the Javtokas situation. The contracts of these players apply: Macijuaskas, Jacikevicius, Anthony Parker, Oberto, Garbajosa's projected salary.

Powe has absolutely nothing to do with RJ. Nor did Gomes.

If the Spurs' FO has the same thinking as you, it goes a long way in explaining why we have very little youthful talent on our bench. You guys are completely overlooking the changes in the marketplace for established veterans in Europe.

[Mr. Body]

So this thread was started about Leon Powe and the Celtics just to carry on the Jav/Scola vs. Spurs FO argument?

Apparently. :rolleyes

But there was no point to make. :blah

[ducks]

yeah there is so much to talk about now tell thursday

[SequNets]

No, it's a semi-veiled shot at the Javotkas/Scola apologists. This is actually what second round picks usually earn, yet the LLE ($1.75M starting pay) is not good enough.


Exactly.

[ducks]

Anthony Parker, Oberto WERE FA's
BIG DIFFERENCE

[Mr. Body]

The market value is still placed. What you guys keep saying is that the players the Spurs have rights to ought to be pleased to play for an extreme fraction of what they're worth. I'm sure you'd try to get Scola to play for the LLE once his contract expires. This is akin to Microsoft trying to hire you, as a systems designer, for $20,000 a year. You'd tell them no thanks and go find work in India, anywhere, to get your value.

[ducks]

You are not obligated to pay market price for second round draft picks
no one in the nba is bidding against you
euro may give a player a bigger contract for one or 2 years but if you believe in yourself you get a much bigger payday in america

jav did not even have confidence in himself to beat out nazr,rasho,horry and oberta to get playing time

[ducks]

microsoft is not like the nba that will give you millions if you prove you are worthy to be in the nba

[Mr. Body]

You are not obligated to pay market price for second round draft picks
no one in the nba is bidding against you
euro may give a player a bigger contract for one or 2 years but if you believe in yourself you get a much bigger payday in america

jav did not even have confidence in himself to beat out nazr,rasho,horry and oberta to get playing time

The point is - and the point everyone is failing to grasp - is that Javtokas is not ever going to come over if he is lowballed. And, in the future, our late second round 'project players' will not come over if they are lowballed, either. Entrapping them with 2nd round picks and taking advantage of the situation will only piss them off. You may say "oh, well, they must not be confident enough in their abilities!!!"

Who cares? We're missing out on talent. And for these players, playing in Europe is more than acceptable as a substitute. And European salaries can make a player wealthy enough.

We had better sign Sanikidze soon, before his value rises above the LLE threshold.

[ducks]

jav is maybe 10-15 minute a guy in the nba
I hope jav does not come over next year
that does not have a leg put back to gather
I hope they have someone better then that
and can trade jav to someone else


spurs may use the development league they did not have the choice earlier

sandikidze I think will be brought over next year

[ducks]

I take ian over jav next year

[Mr. Body]

Fair enough. The Spurs will trade him if they won't pony up the $2.5M or so he's worth. I don't doubt he'll send a couple of Parker's shots flying.

The NBDL may be the savior for this concept (of below-market cheapness). Letting young talents develop overseas on 2nd round contracts didn't work out. Bringing Sanikidze soon needs to happen, to keep the cost down. Unlike Mahinmi, he doesn't have a rate locked down.

[ducks]

spurs will not have a problem trading jav since he has no buyout

[ducks]

jav did not get even 2.5 million in europe this year
he got 2 million usa dollars

[Mr. Body]

True, and a lot of teams will be intrigued by his potential.

RJ is worth $2-2.5M, I'd say.

[ducks]

I do not call it cheap it actually makes sence this is the first time it did not work out
and they were hoping jav would give them more time and see
jav was not the first plan but he could not wait even though spurs wanted on him to get healthy

[ducks]

spurs may pony up next year if what they get do not work out or if noone is better next year

also depends on injurys and what ian does


did oberta sign a 2 year deal or three?

if two and oberta does not work out next year he could take him place maybe with his 2.5 money

[Mr. Body]

It's unfortunate he couldn't wait, but he had to take the Greece job. He had to play somewhere.

The FO being cheap is out of necessity. It's worked pretty well so far. It's amazing what a fine line they've had to walk between fielding an excellent team and being frugal.

Scola and Javtokas will both be in the league within 2 years. I'm feeling Scola will be somewhere else and there's still a possibility Javtokas will be a Spur. Regardless, I feel they'll both turn out to be solid contributors somewhere off the bench. And I don't think the teams that have them will think they've overpaid.

[Mr. Body]

Oberto has a player option for a third year. I can see him packaged with other expiring deals (I feel Elson is a one-year try out and they'll try to trade him, too) to get a talented player.

At that point I can see Javtokas moving in to take his spot.

[ducks]

I think scola could be a 8 point 3 -5 rebound guy
it is to bad he can not play here because he likes the ball where duncan is
I also think spurs are going to try to trade him to the east not the west.....
I would like scola to go to the bobcats......................

[Slinkyman]

Because Powe has been playing in Euroleague playoffs and shutting down some of the best centers in Europe? :rolleyes

Powe's contract suggests absolutely nothing about the Javtokas situation. The contracts of these players apply: Macijuaskas, Jacikevicius, Anthony Parker, Oberto, Garbajosa's projected salary.

Powe has absolutely nothing to do with RJ. Nor did Gomes.

If the Spurs' FO has the same thinking as you, it goes a long way in explaining why we have very little youthful talent on our bench. You guys are completely overlooking the changes in the marketplace for established veterans in Europe.

As if they're any good centers in Europe, Oberto was one of the best and he sucks.

[Slinkyman]

Somehow I doubt he has a team in Europe willing to pay him about $2M US for ONE season.

Somehow i doubt the celtics would pay Powe's medical bills if he crashed his motorcycle

[ChumpDumper]

Javtokas simply has no confidence in his ability to succeed in the NBA and wants his money up front. If he doesn't come over next year, he'll never get the money he could've gotten had he come over this summer.

If he can't stand gambling less than half a million dollars over two years for the huge paycheck he would receive after two years in the NBA, he simply doesn't think that highly of his own abilities. That's fine. the Spurs will give that money to Jackie Butler.

[Mr. Body]

If Javtokas believed in his abilities, he would have played for free.

[ChumpDumper]

If Javtokas believed in his abilities, he would have played for free.He wouldn't starve on the full LLE - it's more guaranteed money than he's getting now.

[Mr. Body]

If Javtokas believed in himself, he would have said, "No way do I want the LLE, give me $200K! I want to prove myself."

[ChumpDumper]

You're right, we HIGHballed him with a minimum offer.

he was insulted that we offerred $200,000 more than he wanted.

[Mr. Body]

I think he should be paying us for the right to play for the Spurs. That'd be awesome.

[ChumpDumper]

All that dude does is lift weights and fish. If he's afraid to risk 1/4 of his salary over two years for the big NBA payoff, that's his problem.

Tick-tock.

[Obstructed_View]

Yes, it is de rigueur to argue the same point in at least three threads.
<--- Trendsetter. :cooldevil

[Jekka]

Mr. Body is a fool. We've signed our 2nd round picks to the LLE in the past, and we'll do so in the future. Javaktovas is no Manu. I'm not worried about him sitting out for the rest of his damn life.

-Manny

[Mr. Body]

Mr. Body is a fool. We've signed our 2nd round picks to the LLE in the past, and we'll do so in the future. Javaktovas is no Manu. I'm not worried about him sitting out for the rest of his damn life.

-Manny

Like everybody else on your side of the equation, you fail to grasp what's going on here. The problem is the cost of established European veterans has gone up above the LLE. The days of pinching a Manu for the LLE are over. Signing a European talent for the LLE is not impossible, but that player will be wholly untested.

You cannot get a good, Euroleague-tested player to sign anymore for the LLE. It's insulting. But I'm sure the Spurs will keep trying in the hopes of finding someone willing to play for charity. Other teams will take the risks and find the Nocionis of the world. Meanwhile, players will avoid getting drafted by the Spurs in the 2nd round. That way lies a perdition of reduced salaries and years of waiting if you wind up being any good.

My suggestion to you: Call the FO and get them to bring in Sanikidze in the next year, before he asks for more than the LLE. Or stash him somewhere where his exposure isn't that great. I'm sure the second he asks for at least $2M you'll draw out your knives like the typical simplistic homers you are.

[furry_spurry]

One thing people have not grasped is that Robertas is not as desperate to come to the NBA as some people think. I have known that for some time. He has a life and a wife in Europe. More and more there are players choosing to stay in Europe, especially because of the experiences of some who have gone to the NBA recently. I don't think he is nearly as upset about not being in the NBA as Scola is. I think he just felt like the Spurs "misled" him and it would have been better to be more upfront. He could have just signed a deal in Europe in June and been done with it, but he waited for the Spurs until mid-July. They chose other players as their priority and he chose another team. Again, I wonder about those who direct all the "anger" at the individual player and his choice but never at the team and their choice.

[Mr. Body]

Again, I wonder about those who direct all the "anger" at the individual player and his choice but never at the team and their choice.

It's the pathology of this board. Maybe it's the pathology of Spurs fans.

They hate Scola the second he can't come because he signed a long-term contract when he was a kid.

They hate Javtokas for selecting the better life for himself after the Spurs halted negotiations with him.

The second either player comes over, they'll be the best players in existence. :madrun

[furry_spurry]

Manu is the exception and not the rule. The problem for the Spurs is that their source of cheap contracts has dried up. Not only has the market value for these guys in the NBA gone up, but the European teams are paying more, too. Manu came to the team in 2002. A lot has changed since then.

[MannyIsGod]

Like everybody else on your side of the equation, you fail to grasp what's going on here. The problem is the cost of established European veterans has gone up above the LLE. The days of pinching a Manu for the LLE are over. Signing a European talent for the LLE is not impossible, but that player will be wholly untested.

IE - Javaktovas. Next.




You cannot get a good, Euroleague-tested player to sign anymore for the LLE. It's insulting. But I'm sure the Spurs will keep trying in the hopes of finding someone willing to play for charity. Other teams will take the risks and find the Nocionis of the world. Meanwhile, players will avoid getting drafted by the Spurs in the 2nd round. That way lies a perdition of reduced salaries and years of waiting if you wind up being any good.
[quote]

The LLE is more than what Javaktovas is making this year. If he was insulted enough to go take less money, then he's very stupid.

[quote]
My suggestion to you: Call the FO and get them to bring in Sanikidze in the next year, before he asks for more than the LLE. Or stash him somewhere where his exposure isn't that great. I'm sure the second he asks for at least $2M you'll draw out your knives like the typical simplistic homers you are.
Now you want to offer a guy who hasn't played ball in a year a contract and a roster spot in the NBA because he might blow up later? This is like your plan of drafting possible non scrubs in the second round on the off chance they might blow up.

But you're definetly right. You're the only one who gets it and the rest of us are all confused. Congrats. You're so smart.

[MannyIsGod]

It's the pathology of this board. Maybe it's the pathology of Spurs fans.

They hate Scola the second he can't come because he signed a long-term contract when he was a kid.

They hate Javtokas for selecting the better life for himself after the Spurs halted negotiations with him.

The second either player comes over, they'll be the best players in existence. :madrunYou're retarded. No one hates Scola or Javaktovas. Because people don't go along with your pipe dream ideas they hate them? Scola isn't worth the full MLE, and Javaktovas is worth about what the LLE stands at. That doesn't mean anyone hates them.

If anyone is hated, it is Scola's agent. This is not the first time he's said shit about the Spurs. He must think pissing them off each offseason is a great negotiating tactic. Well Luis stayed in Europe again, so think again.

[ChumpDumper]

Robertas can stay in Europe and make less money over the course of his career. He didn't and doesn't even have to enter into negotiations with us if he is so goddam happy.

And all this crap about the market -- all those higher contracts were for free agents, and all of them have pretty much been busts compared to their expectations.

Go find the highest 2nd round contract ever signed in the modern CBA era. IIRC, that guy was a Euro bust too.

[Mr. Body]

Just because I'm bored...

Javtokas is not worth the LLE. He's worth more.

Sanikidze might get quite good in Europe. My prediction: the Spurs will offer him the LLE. MannyIsUnclearOnTheConcept and others will applaud. He and his agent look around. Everyone else of his generation and talent is getting at least $2M. He'll say no thanks, go play for Maccabi, making good money and is a star. The Spurs get booted again in the 2nd round with an awful bench. Another couple seasons go by, each summer they offer him even less. Then they trade his rights to Chicago for a 2nd round pick. Sanikidze is a fine bench player for them. They go deep in the playoffs. Duncan retires.

So damn predictable. :rolleyes

[Mr. Body]

Robertas can stay in Europe and make less money over the course of his career. He didn't and doesn't even have to enter into negotiations with us if he is so goddam happy.

And all this crap about the market -- all those higher contracts were for free agents, and all of them have pretty much been busts compared to their expectations.

Go find the highest 2nd round contract ever signed in the modern CBA era. IIRC, that guy was a Euro bust too.

Again... because I'm bored...

You're never going to see talent on the Spurs' bench if you lowball them. Entrapping them with 2nd round picks is going to infuriate them. No one has a hard on to play for the Spurs. You guys will hate them because they want to be paid what they're worth. So what if they're busts? So what if they become superstars? A player feels disrespected when a FO tries to take advantage of them.

Etc.

This is really quite stupid. You and Manny are completely oblivious.

[ChumpDumper]

Javtokas is not worth the LLE. He's worth more.Right now all he thinks he's worth is $210,000 more than the LLE. If he believes that, he can cash in two years from now.

[leemajors]

Again... because I'm bored...

You're never going to see talent on the Spurs' bench if you lowball them. Entrapping them with 2nd round picks is going to infuriate them. No one has a hard on to play for the Spurs. You guys will hate them because they want to be paid what they're worth. So what if they're busts? So what if they become superstars? A player feels disrespected when a FO tries to take advantage of them.

Etc.

This is really quite stupid. You and Manny are completely oblivious.

oblivious to your baseless assumptions and circular logic, yes.

[Mr. Body]

Scola and Javtokas are actually doing the smart thing. By not signing with the Spurs for peanuts, they're forcing their rights to be traded. Their rights will be traded to an NBA team that 1) values them; and 2) will pay them market. They'll get their market contracts.

So, by taking less this year, Javtokas might be looking at an excellent payday in the next couple years. Excellent = what he's worth. Same with Scola.

Good luck with GM'ing on the cheap.

[ChumpDumper]

Could our Euros be any more overrated?

With any luck, RJ will get that extra $210,000.

[MannyIsGod]

Market value is set by the customer. The Spurs are Javaktovas' ONE AND ONLY customer in the NBA. They set his value at the LLE. Thats what it is. Unless they set it higher, he's not getting more than that to play in the NBA.

:lmao @ this guy continously calling us oblivious and stupid and wondering why we dont' get it. We get it fine dude, but we disagree with you.

[MannyIsGod]

Scola and Javtokas are actually doing the smart thing. By not signing with the Spurs for peanuts, they're forcing their rights to be traded. Their rights will be traded to an NBA team that 1) values them; and 2) will pay them market. They'll get their market contracts.

So, by taking less this year, Javtokas might be looking at an excellent payday in the next couple years. Excellent = what he's worth. Same with Scola.

Good luck with GM'ing on the cheap.Forcing their rights to be traded? Ok, nobody wants Scola. The Spurs were unable to move his rights this offseason. So what does that say bout Scola's market value.

Secondly, you really think theres enough interest in the leauge to garner a trade for Javaktovas' rights?

hahahahhahahahahahhahahahahhaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaa









ha

[leemajors]

Scola and Javtokas are actually doing the smart thing. By not signing with the Spurs for peanuts, they're forcing their rights to be traded. Their rights will be traded to an NBA team that 1) values them; and 2) will pay them market. They'll get their market contracts.

So, by taking less this year, Javtokas might be looking at an excellent payday in the next couple years. Excellent = what he's worth. Same with Scola.

Good luck with GM'ing on the cheap.

if other teams valued scola so much, wouldn't they be beating our doors down looking to trade for his rights? if these players are as coveted as you think they are, we should get something decent in return.

[ducks]

I think jav will be traded

cavs and mem never even offered anything for scola they wanted him but no formal offer was even made

[Mr. Body]

Market value is set by the customer. The Spurs are Javaktovas' ONE AND ONLY customer in the NBA. They set his value at the LLE. Thats what it is. Unless they set it higher, he's not getting more than that to play in the NBA.

:lmao @ this guy continously calling us oblivious and stupid and wondering why we dont' get it. We get it fine dude, but we disagree with you.

Failed economics, eh? Fine. The Market includes all players in the pile, which includes the NBA and players in European leagues. This is regardless of whether the Spurs are the only NBA team they have to deal with. They still know how much they are worth. And they see the Spurs lowballing them.

What we're talking about is WHY JAVTOKAS WILL NOT ACCEPT THE LLE. That's the reason why. He's worth more than that. And Scola, minus his buyout, is certainly worth more. Maybe eventually they accept the LLE out of extreme desparation... maybe. Maybe eventually Javtokas accepts worse than he should demand. But developing a history of this is going to 1) piss off agents, 2) piss off players. San Antonio develops a reputation for not paying rates? Nice. Look at a lot of shut doors all over Europe.

You are wrong about this, too:
There was interest in Scola this year, but his buyout is still too much to handle, especially since the Spurs were asking for 1st rounders or the like. Next year may be different.

There will be interest in Javtokas. There are many, many teams that would be excited about an athletic, tough, young, shotblocking center for an extremely cheap $2-$2.5M pricetag. If the Spurs can't bring him over next year, they'll certainly be moving his rights.

[Mr. Body]

if other teams valued scola so much, wouldn't they be beating our doors down looking to trade for his rights? if these players are as coveted as you think they are, we should get something decent in return.

Read the above: with a large buyout and the Spurs' price tag (a first rounder is what we heard), this year it was too much.

[ChumpDumper]

There will be interest in Javtokas. There are many, many teams that would be excited about an athletic, tough, young, shotblocking center for an extremely cheap $2-$2.5M pricetag. If the Spurs can't bring him over next year, they'll certainly be moving his rights.:lmao Won't he be worth at least $6 million by then with the market for Euroscrubs going through the roof?

Again, this dispute was over $210,000. Rudoy miscalculated.

[ducks]

Read the above: with a large buyout and the Spurs' price tag (a first rounder is what we heard), this year it was too much.


why?

his market value was not that high?

I think spurs would have came to terms with scola had they thought he could play 20-25 minutes a game on the spurs

scola is worth atleast a first round pick so why not leave him over there tell next year when the buyout is lower?

[Winnipeg_Spur]

So, by taking less this year, Javtokas might be looking at an excellent payday in the next couple years. Excellent = what he's worth. Same with Scola.
That's exactly why he should've come to the Spurs as soon as possible for whatever money. In one or two years he'd be a free agent in the NBA and he'd be able to sign wherever they'd pay him the big bucks, that is unless he did nothing in the big leagues...

[Mr. Body]

Won't he be worth at least $6 million by then with the market for Euroscrubs going through the roof?

Who knows what the market will be then? Other teams tend to be crazy with their spending. I don't think Garbajosa is worth $4M. I happen to think Oberto, Macijauskas, and Jacikevicius were all overpaid; in retrospect, they were all badly overpaid, but even at the time they were getting too much money. This has made it hard for the Spurs, since they don't like to spend that kind of scratch on unproven players (but they stupidly did, with Oberto).

So who knows where things go?


Again, this dispute was over $210,000. Rudoy miscalculated.

Rudoy didn't miscalculate. He thought the negotiations were ongoing. Send a contract... send it back... send a new figure... send it back. That's how it goes. Rudoy sent back the first contract...

And never got another one. The Spurs about-faced and went in an entirely new direction.

[ChumpDumper]

Rudoy didn't miscalculate. He thought the negotiations were ongoing. Send a contract... send it back... send a new figure... send it back. That's how it goes. Rudoy sent back the first contract...

And never got another one. The Spurs about-faced and went in an entirely new direction.How is that NOT a miscalculation? :lmao again!

[Mr. Body]

That's exactly why he should've come to the Spurs as soon as possible for whatever money. In one or two years he'd be a free agent in the NBA and he'd be able to sign wherever they'd pay him the big bucks, that is unless he did nothing in the big leagues...

I honestly think he would have taken slightly more than they offered; he might have even taken the LLE. What was stunning to him - and to me, and to most observers - is that negotiations completely stopped. The Spurs just... didn't offer him the next contract. Had he known they'd do that, he might have taken the less money, as you describe.

I happen to think he's easily worth more than that, and I've been talking about why he and his agent would have refused the first round of contracts.

I also think the Spurs made a big mistake by pulling out of negotiations.

[ducks]

spurs told jav to wait
jav I CAN NOT I might break my leg....

[Mr. Body]

How is that NOT a miscalculation? :lmao again!

Alright, yes, in a way it was a miscalculation, but on a completely different level. So yes, oh wizard, in a matter of semantics you are right.

[ducks]

what do you think jav's numbers would have been in the nba this season MR BODY

[ChumpDumper]

I honestly think he would have taken slightly more than they offered; he might have even taken the LLE. What was stunning to him - and to me, and to most observers - is that negotiations completely stopped. The Spurs just... didn't offer him the next contract. Had he known they'd do that, he might have taken the less money, as you describe.

I happen to think he's easily worth more than that, and I've been talking about why he and his agent would have refused the first round of contracts.

I also think the Spurs made a big mistake by pulling out of negotiations.The Spurs didn't pull out of negotiations. They were going to come back if one of the MLE deals was matched. So Rudoy and Javtokas actually ended any chance of further negotiations.

for $210,000.

Actually less money when you consider the years.

Hope he stays healthy.

[Mr. Body]

I think spurs would have came to terms with scola had they thought he could play 20-25 minutes a game on the spurs

scola is worth atleast a first round pick so why not leave him over there tell next year when the buyout is lower?

I think he'd be a Spur today if his buyout wasn't there. I don't buy the "he can't play next to Duncan" business; if he was cheaper, they would have given it a shot.

Scola might be worth a first round pick. I certainly hope so. This buyout insanity is still unclear, whether it actually goes down next year or not.


spurs told jav to wait
jav I CAN NOT I might break my leg....

We're unclear here, too. What was communicated to Javtokas' camp? AFAIK, they just called to say they were "going in a different direction." RJ unfortunately had a deadline from Panathinaikos and did the smart thing of taking it. We don't know if he's happy about it or not; he's had to move regardless.

[MannyIsGod]

Failed economics, eh? Fine. The Market includes all players in the pile, which includes the NBA and players in European leagues. This is regardless of whether the Spurs are the only NBA team they have to deal with. They still know how much they are worth. And they see the Spurs lowballing them.

Failed English, eh? The term was Market Value, not the market. And I said his NBA Market value. I think it has pretty much been established that if he wants to make more in Europe, then no one cares and he can right ahead and do so. If he wants to play in the NBA, he's going to do so at whatever the Spurs are willing to pay him because they are the only ones setting his Market Value.




What we're talking about is WHY JAVTOKAS WILL NOT ACCEPT THE LLE. That's the reason why. He's worth more than that. And Scola, minus his buyout, is certainly worth more. Maybe eventually they accept the LLE out of extreme desparation... maybe. Maybe eventually Javtokas accepts worse than he should demand. But developing a history of this is going to 1) piss off agents, 2) piss off players. San Antonio develops a reputation for not paying rates? Nice. Look at a lot of shut doors all over Europe.

Everyone knows why Javaktovas won't accept the LLE. He thinks he should get more money. Thats fine, but what he thinks should be reality and what the reality actually is are 2 completely different things.

The Spurs have all kinds of connections in Europe. I'm not worried about closed doors. I have no idea what kind of misguided judgement has lead you to believe that the Spurs using the leverage they have against these players in negotiations is going to hurt them in the long run, but it is judgement that apparently fails to understand exactly what is involved in contract negotiations.



You are wrong about this, too:
There was interest in Scola this year, but his buyout is still too much to handle, especially since the Spurs were asking for 1st rounders or the like. Next year may be different.

There will be interest in Javtokas. There are many, many teams that would be excited about an athletic, tough, young, shotblocking center for an extremely cheap $2-$2.5M pricetag. If the Spurs can't bring him over next year, they'll certainly be moving his rights.Your logic is so fucking stupid. You claim Scola's buyout isn't what is driving up his price, then you turn around and say its scaring teams away. Why is it scaring teams away? If a team is willing to pay 4-5 million a year for Scola, what the fuck do they care what it goes to?

The team isn't going to pay a significant portion of the buyout, Scola is. Thats the only damn reason his going rate is so high. If he doesn't get a contract of that size, he can't afford to pay his buyout. It has nothing to do with his talent level.

Whats more ironic is that you think the if the Spurs trade these players rights the players win but the Spurs lose. If these players are as overvalued by other leauge GMs as they are by you, then you could possibly see those 2nd round picks parlayed into 1st round picks by the Spurs. Yeah, really devistating for the Spurs. It hurts man, it hurts.

[Mr. Body]

The Spurs didn't pull out of negotiations. They were going to come back if one of the MLE deals was matched. So Rudoy and Javtokas actually ended any chance of further negotiations.

for $210,000.

Actually less money when you consider the years.

Hope he stays healthy.

Again, we don't know if the Spurs knew there was a deadline to the Panathinaikos offer. Perhaps they didn't. If, then, messing up happened on both sides and, to use your parlance, the Spurs also miscalculated.

It's a stupid business, but it winds up hurting the Spurs a lot. Again, we'll see with the Elson and Butler resolutions. If we get both, then we're in good shape.

[MannyIsGod]

Again, we don't know if the Spurs knew there was a deadline to the Panathinaikos offer. Perhaps they didn't. If, then, messing up happened on both sides and, to use your parlance, the Spurs also miscalculated.

It's a stupid business, but it winds up hurting the Spurs a lot. Again, we'll see with the Elson and Butler resolutions. If we get both, then we're in good shape.You're fucking retarded. You can't even keep your message the same in one paragraph.

[Mr. Body]

Your logic is so fucking stupid. You claim Scola's buyout isn't what is driving up his price, then you turn around and say its scaring teams away. Why is it scaring teams away? If a team is willing to pay 4-5 million a year for Scola, what the fuck do they care what it goes to?

You're confused. Scola's contract demands are so high because of the buyout, which should be obvious to you. Teams balked at the double price of 1) trading a valuable 1st round pick to the Spurs for him, then 2) paying him a very large salary.

It's pretty simple.

[leemajors]

This buyout insanity is still unclear, whether it actually goes down next year or not.
i'm pretty sure his contract is done after this season.

[MannyIsGod]

I think he'd be a Spur today if his buyout wasn't there. I don't buy the "he can't play next to Duncan" business; if he was cheaper, they would have given it a shot.

No shit, becuase he woudl have come over for the LLE.

[ChumpDumper]

Again, we don't know if the Spurs knew there was a deadline to the Panathinaikos offer. Perhaps they didn't. If, then, messing up happened on both sides and, to use your parlance, the Spurs also miscalculated.They had already made their decision about what to do with the MLE -- they value Elson and Butler more than Javtokas. I know that's your main problem with all this, but there it is. That's what the Spurs think and most GMs would likely agree - especially when a team has exclusive rights to RJ.

[leemajors]

You're confused. Scola's contract demands are so high because of the buyout, which should be obvious to you. Teams balked at the double price of 1) trading a valuable 1st round pick to the Spurs for him, then 2) paying him a very large salary.

It's pretty simple.

most euro players with big buyouts take loans to pay the buyout, get on a payment plan, then pay it off when they get their second contract. that's scola's problem, not an NBA team's. or. if you are kristic, vlade pays it for you! :lol

[MannyIsGod]

You're confused. Scola's contract demands are so high because of the buyout, which should be obvious to you. Teams balked at the double price of 1) trading a valuable 1st round pick to the Spurs for him, then 2) paying him a very large salary.

It's pretty simple.Thats exactly what I said dumbass! Which why I said yesterday he'd come over for the LLE without the buyout.


Me - "The sky is blue."

Mr. Body - "No, you are oblivious and don't understand: The sky is blue"

[MannyIsGod]

Having a players exlusive rights is a major source of leverage in any type of contract negotiation. They have always been as much, and will continue to be as much even though Euro players have other avenues to get paid because to the vast majority of these players coming to NBA has a higher salary ceiling and has its own value outside of what you get in a contract.

[Mr. Body]

They had already made their decision about what to do with the MLE -- they value Elson and Butler more than Javtokas. I know that's your main problem with all this, but there it is. That's what the Spurs think and most GMs would likely agree - especially when a team has exclusive rights to RJ.

I understand that. What we've mostly been arguing about for seemingly like 10 years is how much RJ's value is and whether he was worth more than the LLE. I, of course, am saying he was. We don't know what was going on behind closed doors. In a free market, RJ is clearly worth more than the LLE. I understand why you're saying the Spurs were right only to lowball him -- because they could get away with it. I don't understand why you don't understand why he'd say no to it (for the glory of playing for future contracts? umm, okay...). Most GMs might agree that, with exclusive rights, a team has the right to lowball a player. I'm not sure most teams would do it. Regardless of whether they would, there's a slew of teams out there ready to pry him away from the Spurs next year who would pay him correctly, bring him over, and enjoy watching him block some shots.

The other risk to the lowballing strategy, which Manny seems to think is the most preposterous idea under heaven, is that it sets a bad precedent. When players see the Spurs' scout enter the arena, alone or with a pack of other scouts, will they be excited and play their best? Or will they recognize him as coming from the team that habitually lassoes young players into 2nd round picks and then forces them into below-market contracts? Coaches won't be too pleased these scouts are around - they want the best for their players. Agents certainly won't be too pleased. This is what I mean about doors closing. Getting drafted by the Spurs in the 2nd round would be significantly worse than getting drafted by any other team in that round.

[ChumpDumper]

Given that he only signed for a couple hundred thousand more, I can't really call it a lowball offer.

And there is no way I or you would've started any higher than the LLE when there were full MLE centers out there. Robertas didn't want to wait until Thursday to see if he cold get more. If he was feeling pressure to take the pretty modest deal from Greece, maybe he's just not that great.

[leemajors]

so it's in a player's best interest to not play hard when scouts from a specific team are in the arena? you are really reaching now. to risk getting a bad rep for half assing it?

[Mr. Body]

so it's in a player's best interest to not play hard when scouts from a specific team are in the arena? you are really reaching now. to risk getting a bad rep for half assing it?

Oh, they'd play well enough. The point is more that, literally and figuratively, doors will be closed. Coaches will shrug when the scout is around. The scouts won't be called up with exclusive tips as often, and so on. Having a reputation like that can dry up a lot of wells. Coaches and agents know what's up, and "playing cheap for the glory of the Spurs' empire" is not high on anybody's list.

[ChumpDumper]

That is the biggest load of shit I have ever heard.

Euros everywhere will dog it in front of Spurs scouts because Javtokas didn't want to wait and see if he could get another $200k!

[Mr. Body]

Read above post please and use powers of reading. Magic! Understanding!

And, as always, wonderful strawman argument!! A++++

[ChumpDumper]

Read above post please and use powers of reading. Magic! Understanding!

And, as always, wonderful strawman argument!! A++++
When players see the Spurs' scout enter the arena, alone or with a pack of other scouts, will they be excited and play their best? Or will they recognize him as coming from the team that habitually lassoes young players into 2nd round picks and then forces them into below-market contracts?

[Mr. Body]

Eh?

I'll keep talking, since you seem to be coughing up phlegm.

There are 29 other teams in the NBA European players and agents would rather give their tips to, work with, etc., than the Spurs, IF they continue this lowballing procedure.

[MannyIsGod]

I was copying and pasting from 2 posts to post the exact same thing. You beat me, fuck.

[MannyIsGod]

Eh?

I'll keep talking, since you seem to be coughing up phlegm.

There are 29 other teams in the NBA European players and agents would rather give their tips to, work with, etc., than the Spurs, IF they continue this lowballing procedure.You have no real idea on how hard it is to get into the NBA, do you? If an NBA scout comes, you don't fuck around.

[Mr. Body]

You have no real idea on how hard it is to get into the NBA, do you? If an NBA scout comes, you don't fuck around.

Read above post, please.

Nevermind, I'll go get it --


There are 29 other teams in the NBA European players and agents would rather give their tips to, work with, etc., than the Spurs, IF they continue this lowballing procedure.

You do realize scouting is more than just going to games, right?

[ChumpDumper]

I'll keep talking, since you seem to be coughing up phlegm.You're calling your own posts phlegm?

[Mr. Body]

You're calling your own posts phlegm?

No, that gobbledy crap awful tagging you had, that you thankfully fixed.

[leemajors]

i am pretty sure the spurs scouting staff and organization has a good relationship with a lot of european coaches. when the scenario you proposes happens, do you think the agent will think of the way the spurs treated ginobili or them "lowballing" javtokas? the same firm represents both.

[MannyIsGod]

Read above post, please.

Nevermind, I'll go get it --



You do realize scouting is more than just going to games, right?
:lmao

This now because the Spurs didn't give Javaktovas more money other players are going to jeparordize their NBA futures by black listing the Spurs?

Holy shit dude.

:lmao

[ChumpDumper]

No, that gobbledy crap awful tagging you had, that you thankfully fixed.I was lacking an "=".

Sue me for $210,000 and dog it in your workouts.

[Mr. Body]

i am pretty sure the spurs scouting staff and organization has a good relationship with a lot of european coaches. when the scenario you proposes happens, do you think the agent will think of the way the spurs treated ginobili or them "lowballing" javtokas? the same firm represents both.

Subjunctive case, my friend. I said "IF" they keep going this route, which is the route A-1 stamped with approval by Manny/Chump. They love this idea of bracketing players in with 2nd rounders then making them sign cheap contracts.

I know the Spurs have a good relationship with coaches, etc. They've spent a lot of money and effort building that network. IF they continue with this process (A-1 approved by 'geniuses' Manny/Chump) then there will be serious effects and no one will go out of their way to help us.

HOWEVER, I believe the Spurs recognize this. I hope they recognize this. I'm interested in seeing what happens next year with

1) Scola and Javtokas' rights, whether they are traded finally or Javtokas signs, and for what.

2) Their two 2nd rounders, one very late. I suspect they are changing their philosophy of letting talent develop overseas under the exclusive canopy of having 2nd round rights.

[ChumpDumper]

The moral of this story is:

Be better than Francisco Elson and you might get that extra $200k.

[Mr. Body]

The moral of this story is:

Be better than Francisco Elson and you might get that extra $200k.

Yet Elson is making way more than the LLE. Go figure.

[ChumpDumper]

Exactly.

[MannyIsGod]

It has been funny watching Mr. Body completely reinvent his arguement as time goes along in order to try to stay one step ahead.

But but then this, but then this, no no you don't understand its like this....

[MannyIsGod]

Yet Elson is making way more than the LLE. Go figure.Because Elson is better than Javaktovas (in the Spurs eyes) and is a free agent?

If you get anything out of this, it should be that free agency makes a big difference in a players price.

[Mr. Body]

I actually haven't reinvented my argument at all. Rather, you're coming around...

Feels good, doesn't it, swimming up to the light? :lol

[Mr. Body]

Because Elson is better than Javaktovas?

Nah. I'll never believe that. But that's an entirely different thread...

[leemajors]

if you run around in circles enough, you get dizzy.

[MannyIsGod]

I actually haven't reinvented my argument at all. Rather, you're coming around...

Feels good, doesn't it, swimming up to the light? :lolWhat exactly am I coming around to? I've changed nothing that I've stated from the very begining where you said this was a mistake back in the Butler thread. You started off with how it was obviously a miscommunication. Now you're saying that it was a mistake because of the implications it has on future signings. Actually, NOW you've changed that to say that it hasnt' hurt their overseas dealings yet, but it could if they continue it.

[MannyIsGod]

Question: If they could go back and do it again knowing what they know now, would Javaktovas accept a LLE offer at the begining of negotiations?

[ChumpDumper]

Nah, he would've waited to see if he could've gotten more money after Thursday. If he's the best center in Europe, you'd think Euro teams might be a little more patient with him. He and his agent got buffaloed into playing in Greece for less guaranteed money than an LLE deal would've given him and none of the potential future earnings he could've achieved by actually playing an NBA game.

[conqueso]

I understand that. What we've mostly been arguing about for seemingly like 10 years is how much RJ's value is and whether he was worth more than the LLE. I, of course, am saying he was. We don't know what was going on behind closed doors. In a free market, RJ is clearly worth more than the LLE. I understand why you're saying the Spurs were right only to lowball him -- because they could get away with it....

That line in bold, could you justify that for me please. I know you think he's worth more than the LLE, and that you think the Spurs lowballed him. But what evidence do you have that the market would say he's worth more than the LLE and that the market would say that he got lowballed? No one's banging down the door trying to trade for his rights, so where do you get that from?

[conqueso]

Plus, as far as the reputation for being a cheap skate goes...

I don't think it affects the Spurs' reputation as much as you say. Here's my reasoning. When a Euro player decides they want to play in the NBA, they realize that they might not be getting paid what they're worth when they are a relative unknown. Someone like RJ can get pissed and play for $1 mil a year for the rest of their career in Europe. On the other hand, they can play one or two years for less than they're worth, then when time comes to re-up, if they've been performing well, they'll cash the fuck in and make mad bank. That much money more than makes up for the $200K they got shafted when they first came across.

That's the example that Euro players will see when they look at RJ: "Man, that guy could have been making millions like Manu if he'd just swallowed his pride and played for less than he thought he was worth. But he didn't, and he pissed away his career by being an obstinate prick."

Of course, if he gets to the NBA and turns out to be a dud, everyone will know that he wasn't worth what they thought he was at first, the Spurs won't have overpaid another shitty Euro player, and all the guys over there will see that you have to actually have skills to get paid the bills.