Butler will be Isaiah's Folly

[GhostofAlfrederickHughes]

Well, just another in a SERIES of follies, really.

The guy's 21 years old. Give him a couple of years developing his post moves under the tutelage of Duncan, a few pointers from a savvy vet like Horry, and maybe the occassional 'big man' clinic from the Admiral (yes, I know Robinson wasn't a post-up center, but he knows defensive positioning, etc.). Popovich knows the guy has a good work ethic after talking it over with Larry Brown.
Trust me, folks, if they get him, it'll be the Knicks---not the Spurs---who are sorry.

[doldrums]

I agree, this guy got the skills. Just needs the tutelage.

[TDMVPDPOY]

then why dont we lock him up for 6 years at 2mill a season :D instead of the 2 yrs we offered

[ShoogarBear]

It's easy to dump on Isiah, but the fact is when it comes to picking out good young talent, almost nobody else in the NBA has as good a record.

If you're going to trash Isiah, do it based on facts, not randomly. His gluttony for overrated, high-contract veterans is what does him in.

[picnroll]

It's easy to dump on Isiah, but the fact is when it comes to picking out good young talent, almost nobody else in the NBA has as good a record.

If you're going to trash Isaiah, do it based on facts, not randomly. His gluttony for overrated, high-contract veterans is what does him in.
True. I wouldn't mind Isaiah scouting for the Spurs at all. But I'd want him nowhere near the pocketbook.

[Solid D]

It's easy to dump on Isiah, but the fact is when it comes to picking out good young talent, almost nobody else in the NBA has as good a record.

If you're going to trash Isaiah, do it based on facts, not randomly. His gluttony for overrated, high-contract veterans is what does him in.

It's true that people shouldn't dump on Isiah. "Judge not, or you too will be judged"...but we should also remember that "by their fruit you will recognize them. A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit."

Everyone has things in their life they are not proud of, but this article had some interesting things brought to light quoting some previous employees and associates of Isiah.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/basketball/story/388513p-329665c.html

[ShoogarBear]

I wasn't defending anything about Isiah other than his ability to pick talent.

[Supergirl]

Isiah may have an eye for talent, but the man needs to gain some humility and learn the limits of his abilities. He SUCKS ASS as a coach. He needs to back to fuck off the coaching and let the coach he hires work with the talent he gives him. Or else, he'll run himself right out of the NBA business.

[picnroll]

Regardless I'm rooting for Thomas to have a kickass year. I'm not too keen on the already stacked Bulls getting a top three pick off the Knicks in '07.

[Solid D]

I wasn't defending anything about Isiah other than his ability to pick talent.

I know ShoogarBear. I quoted you just to follow the flow of conversation and not really as a rebuttal.

[MoSpur]

Well, two days to go. We'll see if they match or not.

[Phenomanul]

Channing Frye, Trevor Ariza, Nate Robinson.... am I missing anyone??... maybe someone from his days as a Pacer FO associate....

Isaiah has eye for talent... true.

But he is a sucker for bad contracts...
Stephon Marbury
Jerome James
Quentin Richardson
Eddy Curry
Jalen Rose
Steve Francis
Malik Rose

That's about half a roster's worth of bad contracts... and now he wants Keynon Martin's???

[Phenomanul]

Well, two days to go. We'll see if they match or not.


Sigh! seems like an eternity...

[Mr. Body]

We may see some fireworks in the next couple days, Denver or New York involved in a big trade. That would indicate which direction they're going.

[ShoogarBear]

Channing Frye, Trevor Ariza, Nate Robinson.... am I missing anyone??... maybe someone from his days as a Pacer FO associate....

with the Knicks
David Lee
Jackie Butler

with the Raptors
Damon Stoudamire
Marcus Camby
Tracy McGrady
Vince Carter (traded for after the Raptors drafted Antawn Jamison)

[whottt]

Channing Frye, Trevor Ariza, Nate Robinson.... am I missing anyone??...


Damon Stoudamire Tracy MaGrady....both of those picks went against the conventional wisdom of the other GM's around the league...as well as the "draft experts".





maybe someone from his days as a Pacer FO associate....

Isaiah has eye for talent... true.

But he is a sucker for bad contracts...
Stephon Marbury
Jerome James
Quentin Richardson
Eddy Curry
Jalen Rose
Steve Francis
Malik Rose

That's about half a roster's worth of bad contracts... and now he wants Keynon Martin's???


The Knicks can(could) afford to take on those contracts...

You can't rebuild the conventional way in NY when you have the leagues highest average ticket price...not to mention the Yankees...it's NY.



And I don't see how anyone can say Isiah didn't smoke us on the Nazr trade. He had Nazr pegged as being non-essential long before the Spurs figured it out....and he got 2#1 picks in addition to an equally talented player in Malik.

Honestly...if we'd just traded Malik for Nazr Isiah still would have gotten the better end of the deal in terms of on court contributions and desire to win.

[whottt]

BTW...Isiah's problem is not mismanaging payroll...

It's being totally unconcerned with the character and attitude of the players he puts together...

In fact he almost seems to have an affinity for the guys with bad attitudes...

Perhaps that's because that's what he once was himself?


The difference between he and the bad tudes he trades for though...

He always wanted to win. The guys he trades for generally seemed to be more concerned with numbers.

[whottt]

He also figured out that Charlie Ward sucked way before the Spurs did.

I've never seen Isiah make a bad decision with regards to giving up on a player either.

The guy does know talent..without a doubt.

[timvp]

When the playing field is level, Isiah is probably the best in the league at picking talent. The Spurs (RC/Pop/Presti) are the best at finding players around the globe but Isiah runs circles around them in terms of known talent.

He picked a Rookie of the Year at 7 (Damon Stoudamire). He picked a potential Hall of Famer at 9 (Tracy McGrady). He picked Marcus Camby, who would have gone down as a great pick if he wasn't a china doll.

In his first draft with the Knicks, his first draft pick was Trevor Ariza at 43. Ariza was projected by many to go undrafted. Additionally, the Spurs picked Viktor Sanikidze at 42 that year. Turns out Ariza was a huge steal and a player the Spurs would love to have.

Last year he picked Channing Frye, Nate Robinson and David Lee out of the first round. That's a heck of a grab, especially considering that all three were considered reaches.

The Spurs, on the other hand, can't draft domestic talent at all. Who was the last American player they drafted who amounted to anything? If you don't count Tim Duncan, you might have to go all the way back to Sean Elliott 15+ years ago :lol

[JamStone]

Isiah did not draft Vince Carter. He was already gone from the organization. He may have expressed interested in Vince Carter before he left, but it wasn't like Vince Carter was a stretch at #5 in his draft pick anyway.

And, Damon Stoudamire was a stud coming out of college. He was not an unconventional pick at #7 of the 1995 draft class.

I do agree that Isiah has been pretty strong identifying talent, even later in the draft. He also spotted out guys like James Jones and Trevor Ariza in the second round. The one draft pick that people questioned him about that turned out to be a good pick in retrospect was Fred Jones in 2002. He turned out better than other players so-called experts claimed he should have taken like Kareem Rush or Casey Jacobsen.

So, I agree for the most part that Isiah has been very good identifying young talent. Just wanted to clarify a few of those picks.


ALSO, how will it be Isiah's folly if Jackie Butler becomes a very good player for the Spurs? The first post on this thread specifically states how Butler will get tutelage from Tim Duncan, get savvy veteran pointers from Robert Horry, and maybe an occassional clinic from David Robinson. Yeah, I would agree that could really make Jackie Butler a very good player. But, Jackie Butler WOULD NOT get those things if he stays a New York Knick. So, under those circumstances, unless Isiah traded for Duncan and Horry and hired David Robinsons as a developmental coach, it really wouldn't be a folly by Isiah at all. He doesn't have the resources that the Spurs have to really help with Butler's development.

[Mr. Body]

Balkman looks far from a bust. High energy player in the Ariza mold.

And yes, the Spurs suck at drafting Americans.

The best thing for Butler at this point, really, would be to go to the Spurs. Basketball-wise, his development would stall in New York.

[ShoogarBear]

Isiah did not draft Vince Carter. He was already gone from the organization. He may have expressed interested in Vince Carter before he left, but it wasn't like Vince Carter was a stretch at #5 in his draft pick anyway.

I couldn't remember if Isiah was still there or not, but actually the Raptors picked Jamison, then GS picked Carter with the next pick, and then they worked a trade. So the Raptors got the better player, plus (I presume) something else.



And, Damon Stoudamire was a stud coming out of college. He was not an unconventional pick at #7 of the 1995 draft class.

The hell you say. Stoudamire was an college stud, but a definitely undersized guard who most people had projected for second round, or late first round at best. Thomas got blasted for that pick when it happened.

[ShoogarBear]

The only other criticism I could make for Thomas' draft is that he doesn't trade down when he could still get the same players (i.e., Balkman). I think his ego ("later on I'm going to be able to say what a great pick this was") gets in the way of good business sense.

[Mr. Body]

not getting Balkman later was a gaffe, true

Mardy Collins hasn't been doing much

[SenorSpur]

The Spurs, on the other hand, can't draft domestic talent at all. Who was the last American player they drafted who amounted to anything? If you don't count Tim Duncan, you might have to go all the way back to Sean Elliott 15+ years ago :lol


A fact that has continued to plague this franchise. It's almost as though they've completely ignored domestic talent in favor of the international talent.

Personally, I'm still pissed about them not drafting Josh Howard preferring instead to trade out of the first round of the 2003 draft.

Don't get me wrong, they've been great at finding and locating talent across the globe. However, they should strive to do well at both.

[timvp]

Here are the Spurs' American born picks over the years:

2001 Bryan Bracey - The big story when he got drafted was how he dominated a Michael Finley charity game in Chicago. Turns out he sucked so bad he got cut from the summer league team.

2000 Chris Carrawell - The Spurs flew this guy in first class, held a press conference and gave him guaranteed money. Turns out guy was a super scrub who got cut early into training camp. He never played in an NBA game. Michael Redd was still on the board when the Spurs picked Carrawell :shootme

1998 Derrick Dial - Spurs hyped up this kid when they drafted him. Turns out he was a small shooting guard who couldn't really shoot. In 2000, the final cut in training camp came down to Dial versus Raja Bell. Pop wanted Bell. RC wanted Dial. You know the rest :shootme

1995 Corey Alexander - This was Pop's first draft pick as GM. He was so proud of Alexander and compared him to Tim Hardaway. Pop was so giddy about him. Turns out he sucked. Eric Snow or Fred Hoiberg would have been nice :shootme



So actually, in the Pop era the Spurs have never drafted an American player who has done anything.

[ShoogarBear]

A fact that has continued to plague this franchise. It's almost as though they've completely ignored domestic talent in favor of the international talent.

Personally, I'm still pissed about them not drafting Josh Howard preferring instead to trade out of the first round of the 2003 draft.

Don't get me wrong, they've been great at finding and locating talent across the globe. However, they should strive to do well at both.

Especially now since a) other teams have pretty much caught up on international talent evaluation, and b) international players are no longer guaranteed to dance to the Spurs' tune just because they say so.

[ShoogarBear]

That's a pretty sorry list, timvp.

[Mr. Body]

Derrick Dial was Earl Boykins' teammate, right? We all had the "Dial it in From Long Range" slogans ready.

[timvp]

The hell you say. Stoudamire was an college stud, but a definitely undersized guard who most people had projected for second round, or late first round at best. Thomas got blasted for that pick when it happened.

Exactly. Thomas was laughed at for that pick. Stoudamire had game coming out of college but most said he was a 5'10 shooting guard. Khalid Reeves was oftentimes the point guard of those Arizona teams.

[JamStone]

The hell you say. Stoudamire was an college stud, but a definitely undersized guard who most people had projected for second round, or late first round at best. Thomas got blasted for that pick when it happened.


I know people questioned Stoudamire because of his height. But, I don't recall Thomas getting blasted for taking Damon. I'd love to read articles that say as much. Because, where the Raptors picked in that draft, #7, I don't remember Stoudamire being a questionable pick. Now, maybe Toronto fans hoped for Ed O'Bannon. But, acknowledging that Zeke wanted to start building with a point guard, who really blasted him for taking Stoudamire, and what exactly did they say about it being a bad pick?

[timvp]

I know people questioned Stoudamire because of his height. But, I don't recall Thomas getting blasted for taking Damon. I'd love to read articles that say as much. Because, where the Raptors picked in that draft, #7, I don't remember Stoudamire being a questionable pick. Now, maybe Toronto fans hoped for Ed O'Bannon. But, acknowledging that Zeke wanted to start building with a point guard, who really blasted him for taking Stoudamire, and what exactly did they say about it being a bad pick?

Seeing as that was 1995, it'd be pretty hard to find any articles on it. But Thomas was ripped pretty good. Most everyone said he way overpicked Stoudamire just because he wanted a point guard.

[JamStone]

I don't buy it. I was still living in Detroit at the time. I was following what Zeke was doing. The only thing that even remotely corroborates what you guys are saying is that the Toronto fans were hoping for Ed O'Bannon. But, fans don't always know what they're talking about. I'm talking about NBA analysts and sportswriters "blasting" Zeke for the pick. I don't recall it. And, I question that it happened. Again, I was excited about the Raptors franchise. I even have cousins in Missausaga, Toronto, and they were pretty hyped about Damon.

Again, maybe some people thought Isiah should have taken Ed O'Bannon. But, thinking he should have selected another player does not mean he was getting "BLASTED" for selecting Damon.

[Mr. Body]

Damon Stoudamire and Ed O'Bannon. What a year that was.

[JamStone]

Damon Stoudamire and Ed O'Bannon. What a year that was.


Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace, Jerry Stackhouse, Antonio McDyess, and Joe Smith were top five picks in that class. It went pretty downhill after that.

That's my point. It wasn't a great or deep draft class in 1995. At the #7 pick, there were not really any great alternatives to Damon Stoudamire other than maybe Ed O'Bannon. So, again, I question anyone who claims Isiah was really blasted for picking Damon.

[timvp]

Kevin Garnett, Rasheed Wallace, Jerry Stackhouse, Antonio McDyess, and Joe Smith were top five picks in that class. It went pretty downhill after that.

That's my point. It wasn't a great or deep draft class in 1995. At the #7 pick, there were not really any great alternatives to Damon Stoudamire other than maybe Ed O'Bannon. So, again, I question anyone who claims Isiah was really blasted for picking Damon.

Again I would be able to point out the articles to you but this happened over a decade ago. I don't think ESPN.com even existed yet.

But if you watched the draft on TV, you would have seen the commentators blast Isiah for the pick. Not much more I can tell you unless I can link a recording of the draft from 1995.

[whottt]

The pick of Stoudamire over O'Bannon was panned by just about every one.

[ShoogarBear]

It's easy in retrospect to say it wasn't that deep of draft, but at the time there were a lot of players projected to go before Stoudamire.

Corliss Williamson and Randolph Childress definitely. Almost definitely Bob Sura, Alan Henderson, Shawn Respert. Probably also Brent Barry. These are just the ones that I'm pretty confident about; I'm sure there were others.

I doubt it would be hard to find references to the pick as "surprising" if there was some way of finding 1995 media links.

[Spurminator]

FWIW, the scout on this page had Damon projected as a mid-First Round pick.

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1995_draft/scout/pg.html

[GhostofAlfrederickHughes]

ALSO, how will it be Isiah's folly if Jackie Butler becomes a very good player for the Spurs? The first post on this thread specifically states how Butler will get tutelage from Tim Duncan, get savvy veteran pointers from Robert Horry, and maybe an occassional clinic from David Robinson. Yeah, I would agree that could really make Jackie Butler a very good player. But, Jackie Butler WOULD NOT get those things if he stays a New York Knick. So, under those circumstances, unless Isiah traded for Duncan and Horry and hired David Robinsons as a developmental coach, it really wouldn't be a folly by Isiah at all. He doesn't have the resources that the Spurs have to really help with Butler's development.The folly is that Thomas took on so many bloated contracts (not to mention bloated players like Jerome James) that he is now stuck in a situation where he can't keep a potential diamond-in-the-rough like Butler.

[Mr. Body]

Isiah has already found his next plaything in Jeffries. He has to make a splash in free agency somehow. This is a good sign he's forgotten about his old toy Butler and moved on.

[strangeweather]

The other saving grace for the Spurs over the years besides the international guys has been their ability to find low-end free agents that nobody else was all that wild for and turn them into solid contributors. Bowen, Stephen Jackson, Malik, guys like that.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

Here are the Spurs' American born picks over the years:

2001 Bryan Bracey - The big story when he got drafted was how he dominated a Michael Finley charity game in Chicago. Turns out he sucked so bad he got cut from the summer league team.

2000 Chris Carrawell - The Spurs flew this guy in first class, held a press conference and gave him guaranteed money. Turns out guy was a super scrub who got cut early into training camp. He never played in an NBA game. Michael Redd was still on the board when the Spurs picked Carrawell :shootme

1998 Derrick Dial - Spurs hyped up this kid when they drafted him. Turns out he was a small shooting guard who couldn't really shoot. In 2000, the final cut in training camp came down to Dial versus Raja Bell. Pop wanted Bell. RC wanted Dial. You know the rest :shootme

1995 Corey Alexander - This was Pop's first draft pick as GM. He was so proud of Alexander and compared him to Tim Hardaway. Pop was so giddy about him. Turns out he sucked. Eric Snow or Fred Hoiberg would have been nice :shootme



So actually, in the Pop era the Spurs have never drafted an American player who has done anything.


Usually the Spurs pick at the crapshoot point of the draft anyway. If the Spurs had ever had a decent pick during those years...say a number one overall[/dream on]....well, then, I'd bet they could have drafted an American player who could of done something substantial. Heck, even if the guy wasn't necessarily a resident of the continental U.S. it still would of counted as "American".












Too bad Pop and the Spurs never had that chance.

[Ed Helicopter Jones]

^^^ Of course a 3rd grader could have successfully picked #1 that year.

[Jamtas#2]

Yeah what lousy drafts the spurs have had. They must have been been one of the worst NBA teams during this time. What? Only 3 Titles? Pop doesn't know what he's doing.
Show me a team that is consistently getting top talent in the drafts and I'll show you a team that keeps losing.

[ShoogarBear]

^missed the point

[CaptainLate]

The guy's 21 years old. Give him a couple of years developing his post moves under the tutelage of Duncan, a few pointers from a savvy vet like Horry, and maybe the occassional 'big man' clinic from the Admiral (yes, I know Robinson wasn't a post-up center, but he knows defensive positioning, etc.). Popovich knows the guy has a good work ethic after talking it over with Larry Brown.
Trust me, folks, if they get him, it'll be the Knicks---not the Spurs---who are sorry.

Add Mahimi to the mix and we've got the new twin towers for 10+ yrs (vice the unfortunate few that DRob and Tim had together). Yes, the Knicks will be sorry...but the rest of the teams in the league will be pissed at how the Knicks handed the Spurs another 1st pick "lottery" ball -- AGAIN. :lol

[CaptainLate]

The other saving grace for the Spurs over the years besides the international guys has been their ability to find low-end free agents that nobody else was all that wild for and turn them into solid contributors. Bowen, Stephen Jackson, Malik, guys like that.

Hey, it doesn't take too much FO genius to find solid contributors when you have DRob and Tim anchoring the middle. That's why only a tweak or two is needed each year. But if we get Butler, and Mahimi works out, that is genius.

[T Park]

1995 Corey Alexander - This was Pop's first draft pick as GM. He was so proud of Alexander and compared him to Tim Hardaway. Pop was so giddy about him. Turns out he sucked. Eric Snow or Fred Hoiberg would have been nice

Id say Cory Alexander's atitude did him in more than his talent.



2000 Chris Carrawell - The Spurs flew this guy in first class, held a press conference and gave him guaranteed money. Turns out guy was a super scrub who got cut early into training camp. He never played in an NBA game. Michael Redd was still on the board when the Spurs picked Carrawell

Was also a big name coming out of college and lauded as a great pick.

The freakin draft is a crapshoot.


Good lord.

[Jamtas#2]

Ok. Seeing as how the draft is a world draft and not just american talent, it is not a necessary criticism. If we were only able to draft from US players then fine, but it's not. Seeing seeing as how we were able to draft a player like Tony Parker at the end of the 1st round and a Ginobili in the 2nd shows that we have had recent success. Our recent draft picks haven't either played or played enough yet to be graded. List me a team that has had draft success often and translated that into a great team and I'll see where this is something to get so worried about. We have had good drafts and bad drafts. But our good picks have been really good and helped us to win titles. I'm sure happy that Isah has been able to draft such high quality all-stars who don't help their teams win championships. If I'm missing the point, please tell me why I as a Spurs fan should be so upset.

[ShoogarBear]

You guys do realize that Butler and Mahinmi are still very much projects/long shots? And that DRob and TD were essentially Hall-of-Famers from day 1?

I mean if we're extremely lucky, they might pan out to be Theo Ratliff and Dale Davis. The odds are that neither one will ever be as good as, say, Tyson Chandler. If they can develop while Duncan's still in his prime, great, but they're hardly something to plan to next dynasty over.

[T Park]

People forget, coming out of Virginia, Alexander was considered one of the best point guards.

Hell LOTS of commentators said it was a great pick due to his great shooting ability and speed.


His foot injury in college didn't help.


Alexander though wasn't a horrible pick, I don't think it helped that Bob Hill was coaching at the time.


The assistant coaches and player developers are much better now than they were in 95.

[Taking it to the Hole]

The problem with Isiah is that he doesn't know how to mold talent. He is very good at finding it and bringing it in, but sucks completely in taking a player to that next level. Now as a coach he is going to try to do what he couldn't do in Indiana again and he just doesn't have the necessary skill set to do that. He's a not a very good GM, but was a terrific player. He's a great scouter of talent, but a terrible coach. He just hasn't come to terms with it yet.

[JamStone]

Again, thinking a few players were better at #7 than Damon Stoudamire does not mean Isiah was blasted for taking him. Randolph Childress and maybe Corliss Williamson were arguably the better pick at the time, but there was no higher rated point guard, and that's what Isiah wanted.

http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1995_draft/1995_draft.html
http://www.ibiblio.org/craig/draft/1995_draft/summary.html

"Everyone thought that Stoudamire would go here. He probably would have had Toronto not picked him at #7. Trent was traded to Portland for Shawn Respert, Moving Day to the bench (where he belongs)."


I know there aren't a lot of internet links to the 1995 NBA draft. I tried to do a little searching myself. Didn't really find much, but found a few other links connected to the one Spurminator found. At the above links, it looks like some basketball enthusiasts did their own mock draft. All of the participants had Damon Stoudamire being selected by the Milwaukee Bucks at #11. Now, do four draft slots appear to be enough for "everyone" you guys remember to "blast" on Zeke's pick of Stoudamire? I don't know. You'll have to answer that yourselves. I'll keep trying to find other links and articles.

[CaptainLate]

Yeah what lousy drafts the spurs have had. They must have been been one of the worst NBA teams during this time. What? Only 3 Titles? Pop doesn't know what he's doing.
Show me a team that is consistently getting top talent in the drafts and I'll show you a team that keeps losing.

Hey, Spurs FO had no homework to do in drafting no-brainers like DRob AND Tim. Had the Angels not smiled down on the Spurs then, we'd still be waiting for title #1. You don't honestly think the FO could have achieved three titles thru their drafting ability, do you? :rolleyes

[strangeweather]

Hey, it doesn't take too much FO genius to find solid contributors when you have DRob and Tim anchoring the middle. That's why only a tweak or two is needed each year.
Two words: Minnesota Timberwolves.

[whottt]

You guys do realize that Butler and Mahinmi are still very much projects/long shots? And that DRob and TD were essentially Hall-of-Famers from day 1?

I mean if we're extremely lucky, they might pan out to be Theo Ratliff and Dale Davis. The odds are that neither one will ever be as good as, say, Tyson Chandler. If they can develop while Duncan's still in his prime, great, but they're hardly something to plan to next dynasty over.


Drob wasn't a HOF'er at the age of 20. He didn't even start to look like a legit future NBA player till he was 20.

[Jamtas#2]

Hey, Spurs FO had no homework to do in drafting no-brainers like DRob AND Tim. Had the Angels not smiled down on the Spurs then, we'd still be waiting for title #1. You don't honestly think the FO could have achieved three titles thru their drafting ability, do you? :rolleyes

No, I don't. And that is why we shouldn't be making such a big deal out of the draft. But, I will say that it took hell of a front office to win those 3 titles and have been a contender for the title in the years we didn't win.

[GrandeDavid]

You guys are going a bit too far with your Isaiah talent evaluation love. Give me a break.

[ShoogarBear]

Drob wasn't a HOF'er at the age of 20. He didn't even start to look like a legit future NBA player till he was 20.
Point taken, but I meant from the time they started playing professional ball.

Regardless, the odds are much more in favor of Mahinmi being a Ratliff or Davis than a Robinson.

[T Park]

Ratliff or Davis

In his prime, Davis was an all star.


Ill take it.