Marc Stein: Lapdog to Spurs Front Office?

[FromWayDowntown]

If I've read many of the recent posts around here correctly, I must deduce that Marc Stein is a total Popsucker who has consumed a great deal of the Front Office Kool-Aid:


Ray (San Antonio, TX): Give me a Spurs question Marc, please! No Scola, Oberto not looking great, no real offensive pickups in the offseason! What are my Spurs doing? It looks like Dallas and Pheonix are moving forward and the Spurs are running in place. Any chance we can convince Duncan to play the 5 and pick up another strong 4 (or bring Scola in)? They don't look like an elite team to me next year with this bench.

Marc Stein: What? I thought the Spurs had a quietly HUGE week last week. I'd much rather have Elson and Butler splitting $5 mil than spending it all on Mohammed, who was facing a long road out of Pop's doghouse. I'm betting on the Spurs, at worst, to make a player out of one of the new bigs.

Stein Chat (http://proxy.espn.go.com/chat/chatESPN?event_id=12375)

[1Parker1]

:lol FWD said "Popsucker" I'm just in shock...

[timvp]

How do you "make a player" out of a guy who is 30-years-old?

I do agree with him that Butler > Nazr ... especially considering contracts.

[Phenomanul]

How do you "make a player" out of a guy who is 30-years-old?

I do agree with him that Butler > Nazr ... especially considering contracts.


i.e. one out of the two... I guess the verdict is in. BUTLER.

Marc was being conservative about what he wrote... my guess is that he thinks we will be able to to make Elson better as well.

[Johnny_Blaze_47]

:lol FWD said "Popsucker" I'm just in shock...

Next thing you know...

Solid D's going to begin cursing and using bad grammar.

Manny's going to proclaim his love for everybody.

[BigVee]

Time will tell. I am one who agrees that the Spurs have made some excellent moves and that right now...have a very good chance to be a better team than last year...and that is saying something. Probably not a better record but a much farther trip in the playoffs.

[1Parker1]

Next thing you know...

Solid D's going to begin cursing and using bad grammar.

Manny's going to proclaim his love for everybody.

:lol

[ducks]

elson is good trade bait next year

[T Park]

How do you "make a player" out of a guy who is 30-years-old?

Spurs seemed to do it with Bruce Bowen.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Spurs seemed to do it with Bruce Bowen.

That doesn't count.

[Kori Ellis]

Bowen was already a damn good defender in Miami and averaging 8 ppg (same as he does with the Spurs). He's certainly added to his game in San Antonio, but the Spurs didn't make him.

Anyway, I don't know any bigmen that have gone from mediocre players to very good players after the age of 30. Maybe Elson will be the first but I doubt it.

If he just doesn't miss his defensive rotations and can improve his hands somehow, he should be fine for 15 mpg.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Bowen was already a damn good defender in Miami and averaging 8 ppg (same as he does with the Spurs). He's certainly added to his game in San Antonio, bu the Spurs didn't make him.

He made himself a house-hold name here though.

Who knew who Bruce Bowen was in Miami? The average NBA fan doesn't really know who Francisco Elson is either. Hopefully he gets under people's skin like Bruce.

[50 cent]

Why not?

[Kori Ellis]

He made himself a house-hold name here though.

Who knew who Bruce Bowen was in Miami? The average NBA fan doesn't really know who Francisco Elson is either. Hopefully he gets under people's skin like Bruce.

Why would you expect him to get under people's skin when he's not known for defense?

I think Elson will be fine, but people should just accept him for what he is. A big guy who can run and shoot jumpshots. If he just does the basics on D, he'll be okay.

[T Park]

He's certainly added to his game in San Antonio, bu the Spurs didn't make him.



I think your selling the Spurs short there Kori.

Sure Bowen busted his ass and improved, but the Spurs had a hand in it I'm sure.


Anyway, I don't know any bigmen that have gone from mediocre players to very good players after the age of 30

Well I don't think were looking for VERY good. Were just looking for solid to good.

Don't F up, hustle, rebound, block a shot or two.

Pretty much be a 7 foot Malik Rose.

Wich is what Nuggets fans have told me, they think he is, and can be for the Spurs.

[T Park]

A big guy who can run and shoot jumpshots. If he just does the basics on D, he'll be okay.

On D, like I said, all hes gotta do is use his head, and play hard.

If I was pop, on day 1, I would show film of Malik Rose in 2003 and say COPY HIM!

Thats it.

[Kori Ellis]

I think your selling the Spurs short there Kori.

Sure Bowen busted his ass and improved, but the Spurs had a hand in it I'm sure.



Well I don't think were looking for VERY good. Were just looking for solid to good.

Don't F up, hustle, rebound, block a shot or two.

Pretty much be a 7 foot Malik Rose.

Wich is what Nuggets fans have told me, they think he is, and can be for the Spurs.

I'm just saying you are looking for the wrong things from him. He's not a good rebounder or shot blocker. He's not someone who likes to bang like Malik. Look at him as a center who can run the floor with the running teams. He's not a plodder like Rasho, so he can stay in the game when teams want to run. He runs really well and knocks down midrange jumpers.

[Ocotillo]

I'm just saying you are looking for the wrong things from him. He's not a good rebounder or shot blocker. He's not someone who likes to bang like Malik. Look at him as a center who can run the floor with the running teams. He's not a plodder like Rasho, so he can stay in the game when teams want to run. He runs really well and knocks down midrange jumpers.

Might be interesting against Dallas to have him and Bonner in the game together when Duncan is catching a blow.

[FromWayDowntown]

Bowen was a 2nd team All-NBA defender the season before he joined the Spurs. For their purposes, the Spurs didn't have to "make a player out of him." He was already the player that they wanted him to be when they acquired him. And with the exception of his overall FG% and, to a lesser extent, his 3pt%, Bruce's numbers today are quite similar to the numbers he was putting up in Miami.

I don't think anyone can make a realistic argument that Bowen was a player that the Spurs made -- he might be a player that the Spurs revealed.

I'm with Kori in thinking that expectations for Elson should be very low and that success with Elson should be measured in terms of intanglible things. The phrase of the year is that it "is what it is" -- well, Elson at this point is what he is. It would be unrealistic IMO to think that he'll ever become a major league rebounder or shot blocker or defensive stopper. I hope Spurs fans who are prone to fits of irrational exuberance and create unrealistic expectations will understand those truths.

With that said, my point in posting Stein's comment was more about the fact that it's realistic to hope that the Spurs will get something approximating the contributions that Nazr and Rasho made from the combination of players who are now available to play alongside Timmy on a night-in-night-out basis. It's just that those guys should be able to provide that production at less than half the price. I think that's a good thing and makes the offseason, to this point, no worse than a push with last season.

I think the Spurs are actually marginally better, but I'm prone to irrational exuberance.

[leemajors]

not to brag, but i knew who bowen was when he was in miami. people that followed the NBA somewhat closely had heard of him. miami was a pretty good team then, an eastern conference contender at least.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

Might be interesting against Dallas to have him and Bonner in the game together when Duncan is catching a blow.

That should be very interesting:

+Elson
+Bonner
+Bowen
+Manu
+TP


You have some guys that can run the floor, play up tempo, can defend, can make some plays. Well Bonner can't defend, but still...he can run the floor and sit in a corner and pop 3's all night long.

[FromWayDowntown]

not to brag, but i knew who bowen was when he was in miami. people that followed the NBA somewhat closely had heard of him. miami was a pretty good team then, an eastern conference contender at least.

Not to rain on your parade there, leemajors, but I think many who followed the Spurs closely after the 2001 playoff debacle pointed to Bruce Bowen as "the target" of the 2001 offseason because of the possibility that he might be able to offer the Spurs some meaningful ability to defend Kobe Bryant. And that thought had developed over the course of the preceding season, really, when Bowen had shown himself to be an elite defender even if a relatively unknown quantity to the masses.

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I'll be honest, I didn't know who he was.

In fact when I heard he would be the guy to help D up on Kobe I laughed. Thinking who can D up on Kobe? Boy was I wrong. Bless the Spurs FO.

[Gino20]

Bowen was already a damn good defender in Miami and averaging 8 ppg (same as he does with the Spurs). He's certainly added to his game in San Antonio, but the Spurs didn't make him.

Anyway, I don't know any bigmen that have gone from mediocre players to very good players after the age of 30. Maybe Elson will be the first but I doubt it.

If he just doesn't miss his defensive rotations and can improve his hands somehow, he should be fine for 15 mpg.


I guess playing next to TD does not help him at all. Yeah right! TD opens up so many shots for the other players.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I don't think anyone has a problem with the pickup of Butler and his potential.

Where most of the Pop critics are coming from is the same place they were the day after our season ended - we need more youth, athleticism, and length on the perimeter.

Dirk didn't kill us in the Dallas series, it was Howard and Terry alternating. We still have exactly zero players to even think about matching up with Howard. That's where a J.R. Smith, Qyntel Woods, or Trevor Ariza would have come in nice.

Instead, in the prime of Tim Duncan's career, we've put our eggs in the Rich Melzer basket. :/

[Slinkyman]

I'm just saying you are looking for the wrong things from him. He's not a good rebounder or shot blocker. He's not someone who likes to bang like Malik. Look at him as a center who can run the floor with the running teams. He's not a plodder like Rasho, so he can stay in the game when teams want to run. He runs really well and knocks down midrange jumpers.

since when was Malik a shot blocker or even a good rebounder?

[Buddy Holly]

Who did Miami have to guard those players?

[Please_dont_ban_me]

I don't think anyone has a problem with the pickup of Butler and his potential.

Where most of the Pop critics are coming from is the same place they were the day after our season ended - we need more youth, athleticism, and length on the perimeter.

Dirk didn't kill us in the Dallas series, it was Howard and Terry alternating. We still have exactly zero players to even think about matching up with Howard. That's where a J.R. Smith, Qyntel Woods, or Trevor Ariza would have come in nice.

Instead, in the prime of Tim Duncan's career, we've put our eggs in the Rich Melzer basket. :/

If it wasn't Dirk, I think the guy that killed us was Terry.

The guy is just a clutch shooter. I think Payton did just enough to bug him into not torching the Heat. We don't have a PG like that we can use to get Terry off his spot just enough to miss.

[T Park]

That's where a J.R. Smith, Qyntel Woods, or Trevor Ariza would have come in nice.

Instead, in the prime of Tim Duncan's career, we've put our eggs in the Rich Melzer basket

:lol yeah

Trevor Ariza is the "answer"

:lmao

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

:lol yeah

Trevor Ariza is the "answer"

:lmao

Ariza is actually a pretty good defender and has quick feet. I guess if you watched someone outside the Spurs you'd know it.

Oh wait, you're telling me that the same roster of players on the Spurs who couldn't do it last year magically will this year?

:lmao

Why have a 6'8" Ariza to matchup with Howard when we can let Bowen, Finley, and Ginobili take turns letting him blow by them because they can't keep up.

Typical TFart take.

[leemajors]

Not to rain on your parade there, leemajors, but I think many who followed the Spurs closely after the 2001 playoff debacle pointed to Bruce Bowen as "the target" of the 2001 offseason because of the possibility that he might be able to offer the Spurs some meaningful ability to defend Kobe Bryant. And that thought had developed over the course of the preceding season, really, when Bowen had shown himself to be an elite defender even if a relatively unknown quantity to the masses.

i didn't have one planned, i was just pointing out i was aware of who he was :lol

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

:lol yeah

Trevor Ariza is the "answer"

:lmao

And this coming from someone who would have had the guy's jersey the day after he signed :lol

[exstatic]

Who did Miami have to guard those players?
James Posey is a fucking good defender. I would not mind AT ALL if the Spurs threw their entire MCE at him next summer.

[FromWayDowntown]

Ariza is actually a pretty good defender and has quick feet. I guess if you watched someone outside the Spurs you'd know it.

Oh wait, you're telling me that the same roster of players on the Spurs who couldn't do it last year magically will this year?

:lmao

Why have a 6'8" Ariza to matchup with Howard when we can let Bowen, Finley, and Ginobili take turns letting him blow by them because they can't keep up.

Typical TFart take.

I guess I haven't completely given up on the idea that the Spurs will be able to find the athletic wing that they need; I'm more convinced that they: (1) weren't sold on most of what's available on the free agent market to fit that need; and (2) didn't think that the RFAs who were available would go unmatched.

I guess it might be another of the "we don't know because they didn't try it" scenarios, but my hunch is that there is something else coming and that the something else will involve filling that need somehow. I'd certainly agree that Ariza would be an awfully nice fill, but I have to think the Spurs must have feared that Orlando would be willing to match most any offer and leave them holding the bag on that one while depriving them of the opportunity to find quality to fill the need at center -- for instance, I think its reasonable to believe that it would have taken enough of an offer to Ariza that the Spurs' offer for Butler might have been more easily match-able.

[Solid D]

Okay, so I'm trying to picture some different scenarios. Please be quiet for a moment, I'm trying to concentrate.

To the voice of Bill Schoening:

"10 seconds to go in the game. Howard screens for Nowitzki, Ariza switches to Nowitzki who leans in and puts up a prayer...(tweet). Whistled by Salvatore. Foul on Trevor Ariza? You've got to be kidding me!"

"10 seconds to go in the game. Howard screens for Nowitzki, Woods switches to Nowitzki who leans in and puts up a prayer...(tweet). Whistled by Salvatore. Foul on Qyntel Woods? You've got to be kidding me!"

"10 seconds to go in the game. Howard screens for Nowitzki, Melzer switches to Nowitzki who leans in and puts up a prayer...(tweet). Whistled by Salvatore. Foul on Rich Melzer? You've got to be kidding me!"

Hmmm....I just keep coming up with the same results. :smokin

[ducks]

"10 seconds to go in the game. Howard screens for Nowitzki, MANU switches to Nowitzki who leans in and puts up a prayer...(tweet). Whistled by Salvatore. Foul on MANU? You've got to be kidding me!"

UNFORTUNALLY THAT DID HAPPEN

[Solid D]

Manu, Bowen, Tim....that's sort of the point.

[bigdog]

I wouldnt mind putting Finley on Dirk in that situation, he did guard Dirk decently when he had that assignment in the Dallas series.

[timvp]

I think as far as centers go, the Spurs did a good job of replacing Rasho and Nazr. Elson is like that pitcher who has a 5+ ERA but can eat up 200+ innings. Butler has more potential than any center the Spurs have had since they drafted David Robinson.

The next area the Spurs have to address is athleticism at the swing positions. They need a player who can guard multiple positions outside of Bruce Bowen. Dallas and Phoenix can both put teams on the floor with 4 or 5 players who can penetrate off the dribble. Even Miami has a lot of those type of players.

Right now the Spurs don't have enough defenders on the perimeter. Bowen can defend. Manu is a good defender against players his size. Parker is a pretty good defender against point guards. But other than those three, the Spurs have nobody to guard the perimeter. If a team goes big at small forward or has multiple players with size, the Spurs can't defend them.

As is, Dallas is still the better team. The Spurs need to make a move to get back to the top. Barry, Oberto and Beno are the players I'd look to trade to address needs. Even if the Spurs can't find a Long Three, a player like in the Antonio Daniels mode who can guard quick guards on the perimeter would be helpful at this point.

[ducks]

barry for hedo?

[timvp]

barry for hedo?

I'd do it.

Or Barry for AD. AD is a playoff player who'd be nice against the Harris and Terry backcourt.

But it'd never happen because AD has a contract longer than two years :jack

[ShoogarBear]

Okay, so I'm trying to picture some different scenarios. Please be quiet for a moment, I'm trying to concentrate.

To the voice of Bill Schoening:

"10 seconds to go in the game. Howard screens for Nowitzki, Ariza switches to Nowitzki who leans in and puts up a prayer...(tweet). Whistled by Salvatore. Foul on Trevor Ariza? You've got to be kidding me!"

"10 seconds to go in the game. Howard screens for Nowitzki, Woods switches to Nowitzki who leans in and puts up a prayer...(tweet). Whistled by Salvatore. Foul on Qyntel Woods? You've got to be kidding me!"

"10 seconds to go in the game. Howard screens for Nowitzki, Melzer switches to Nowitzki who leans in and puts up a prayer...(tweet). Whistled by Salvatore. Foul on Rich Melzer? You've got to be kidding me!"

Hmmm....I just keep coming up with the same results. :smokin
Maybe the point is that with Ariza or Woods, the Spurs might not be in that situation to begin with. :fro

[itzsoweezee]

Okay, so I'm trying to picture some different scenarios. Please be quiet for a moment, I'm trying to concentrate.

To the voice of Bill Schoening:

"10 seconds to go in the game. Howard screens for Nowitzki, Ariza switches to Nowitzki who leans in and puts up a prayer...(tweet). Whistled by Salvatore. Foul on Trevor Ariza? You've got to be kidding me!"

"10 seconds to go in the game. Howard screens for Nowitzki, Woods switches to Nowitzki who leans in and puts up a prayer...(tweet). Whistled by Salvatore. Foul on Qyntel Woods? You've got to be kidding me!"

"10 seconds to go in the game. Howard screens for Nowitzki, Melzer switches to Nowitzki who leans in and puts up a prayer...(tweet). Whistled by Salvatore. Foul on Rich Melzer? You've got to be kidding me!"

Hmmm....I just keep coming up with the same results. :smokin


the game would not be that close if the other mavs players don't destroy the spurs inside. the spurs basically made josh howard into a superstar. everyone was scoring at will on san antonio in that series.

defending nowitzski is NOT the problem.

[picnroll]

I wonder if Spurs didn't figure Elson might be the guy that can play some D on Dirk.

I still can't figure why the Spurs don't land Woods. He's cheap and fits their two year limit on contracts. They obviously had no confidence in Barry and his lack of D.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Maybe the point is that with Ariza or Woods, the Spurs might not be in that situation to begin with. :fro

Ding ding ding...

If Josh Howard isn't going for 20 points a game, it's not coming down to the end.

[Solid D]

defending nowitzski is NOT the problem.

If only you were right. Miami defended him and defended him well. The Spurs could not.

I agree that with different players, the Spurs MIGHT have had bigger leads on the Mavs. As close as the games were, the Spurs could not avoid the bad breaks they got in the last 10 seconds of some of those games.

[timvp]

If only your were right. Miami defended him and defended him well. The Spurs could not.

I agree.

Not being able to guard Dirk or keep him off the boards was problem number one. With that part of the defense broken, the Spurs' overall scheme just collapsed. Bowen was forced to guard him, which put a small player on Josh Howard. With Dirk able to hide defensively on Bowen, the Spurs were forced to go smaller.

If the Spurs could find a player to put on Dirk and then keep Bowen on Howard, they'd have a damn good chance of beating the Mavs. Bowen could guard Howard so well that AJ would just take Howard out.

Bowen on Dirk has to be avoided this upcoming year. Finley isn't an option either because he can't rebound against him.

Miami showed how to do it. Put strong players on him who can also rebound and you turn Dirk into a jumpshooter. Do what the Spurs did to Dirk and you turn him into a better version of Larry Bird.

Bottomline is Dirk is the problem and the Spurs still have no answer.

[ShoogarBear]

And I say if Howard and Terry could have been stopped from waltzing into the paint, it wouldn't have mattered what Dirk did.

[Solid D]

http://www.nba.com/media/mavericks/DirkNowitzki_400_060515.jpg

[JUUOT]

The next area the Spurs have to address is athleticism at the swing positions. They need a player who can guard multiple positions outside of Bruce Bowen. Dallas and Phoenix can both put teams on the floor with 4 or 5 players who can penetrate off the dribble. Even Miami has a lot of those type of players.

Right now the Spurs don't have enough defenders on the perimeter. Bowen can defend. Manu is a good defender against players his size. Parker is a pretty good defender against point guards. But other than those three, the Spurs have nobody to guard the perimeter. If a team goes big at small forward or has multiple players with size, the Spurs can't defend them.

As is, Dallas is still the better team. The Spurs need to make a move to get back to the top. Barry, Oberto and Beno are the players I'd look to trade to address needs. Even if the Spurs can't find a Long Three, a player like in the Antonio Daniels mode who can guard quick guards on the perimeter would be helpful at this point.

This is why i thought getting vaughn as the 3rd PG was filling more than the experienced PG. He could be one part of the solution when dallas play a backcourt of terry and harris or phoenix goes with nash and barbosa. At least he brings versatility to our PG rotation we did not have last year with NVE. For me it is huge improvement.

The market is drying for solutions so it will have to come frome trades. Moreover if we want someone that will get playing time and be ready come play-off time to stood up we need to get rid of one swingmen and we all know too well it is barrry. if we go this route:

Barry could be bundled with one of our BIG since there is no room for all of them, Oberto being a good candidate, draft pics, rights to scola, to get an athletic swingmen being able to defend the 2 and the 3 or the 3 and the 4 or ideally 3 positions. I do not see beno going anywhere now and if we trade barry we can keep E.williams around as a insurance before getting rid of it before the trade deadline.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Miami showed how to do it. Put strong players on him who can also rebound and you turn Dirk into a jumpshooter.

Of course those of us advocating putting someone like Tim or Nazr on him and having them lay off and daring him to shoot jumpers were chastized for it, yet here you are advocating the same thing.

It was always about turning Dirk into a jump shooter instead of giving him a matchup he could exploit and either shoot over or take to the rack.

It still comes down to the fact that, like 'Sug said, if you protect the paint with two bigs and turn them into a jump shooting team, as opposed to a layup line, your chances increase greatly.

The greatest irony of all is Dallas did exactly that to us - challenged us to beat them with the jumper, and we lost. Same shit Lakers did to us a couple of times in the days of Kobe and Shaq.

But oh hell no we can't use that against another team, we've got to ditch our 7 year old system that got us 63 wins because of what a couple of highly physical guards did to us in the Sacramento series.

Same ol' same ol'...

[JUUOT]

Tim, horry and oberto are not the answers and even with all the enthousiast on earth i do not think bonner will prove to be a dirk killer. I will watch with intensity who of Elson or Butler can get the job done during regular season. If none than plan B is having a long three replacing barry, it could be williams or ariza or woods but i do not see them keeping dirk out of the game.

PLAN C: trade Oberto and get a banger 6-9 PF that has good speed laterally. I do not think Jamar Smith from camp can do it but you get the idea.

[SenorSpur]

I don't think anyone has a problem with the pickup of Butler and his potential.

Where most of the Pop critics are coming from is the same place they were the day after our season ended - we need more youth, athleticism, and length on the perimeter.

Dirk didn't kill us in the Dallas series, it was Howard and Terry alternating. We still have exactly zero players to even think about matching up with Howard. That's where a J.R. Smith, Qyntel Woods, or Trevor Ariza would have come in nice.

Instead, in the prime of Tim Duncan's career, we've put our eggs in the Rich Melzer basket. :/

I'm jumping into this late, but very nicely put AHF.

I know a lot of folks here claim that we shouldn't be concerned solely about PHX and DAL, but the fact is they are two of the top teams (along with the Clips) in the Western conference. All of which are expected to better this upcoming season. All of which are younger and more athletic than us.

Pop will continue to draw criticism until both he and R.C. address this specific need for which Pop himself labeled as a area of need that they wanted to address this offseason. If he is serious about fielding a more versatile, quicker, lineup for certain situations (as evidenced by ridding the team of plodders like Rasho and Nazr), then I would expect him to make this an offseason priority this year as opposed to next. At this point, it seems as though he and the rest of the FO are either being coy or unconcerned about this roster deficiency.

I, for one, feel this coaching staff relies too much on Bruce's superb, all-world, defensive abilities. Imagine the havoc that could be wreaked with a 6-8, athletic, forward such as Woods or Ariza.

[ChumpDumper]

Why in the world would Ariza sign here folks?

For the chance to play 8 mpg behind two former all-stars and an all-defense swingman? And Brent Barry half the time?

Maybe another 3 mpg at power forward would change his mind?

[JUUOT]

Why in the world would Ariza sign here folks?

For the chance to play 8 mpg behind two former all-stars and an all-defense swingman? And Brent Barry half the time?

Maybe another 3 mpg at power forward would change his mind?

i totally agree. The only way we will bring a capable swing man is to free up minutes in the rotation more so than cap space.

Bowen - manu - finley are unmovable so it comes down to moving barry and eventually williams depending on who you can get. Even with barry out there are no more than around 15mn to deal with if we do not go small ball.

[SenorSpur]

the game would not be that close if the other mavs players don't destroy the spurs inside. the spurs basically made josh howard into a superstar. everyone was scoring at will on san antonio in that series.

defending nowitzski is NOT the problem.

It's amazing how people seem to forget that. The Mavs made the Spurs look more like the Toronto Raptors in that series. Between Terry, Howard and Stack (at times) they were simply raining points on the Spurs "vaunted" defense.

Having Bowen superior abilities on Dirk or whoever the "hot guy" is is one thing, but doesn't account for all the opposition's offensive weapons.

[FromWayDowntown]

Why in the world would Ariza sign here folks?

For the chance to play 8 mpg behind two former all-stars and an all-defense swingman? And Brent Barry half the time?

Maybe another 3 mpg at power forward would change his mind?

And if he's all that he's claimed to be here in these parts, unless the Spurs offered him something like the full MLE over a number of years -- in other words, unless the Spurs ridiculously overpaid him -- why wouldn't Orlando match?

[Solid D]

It's amazing how people seem to forget that. The Mavs made the Spurs look more like the Toronto Raptors in that series.

:rolleyes

2 OT games, 2 one point margins, 1 two point margin, one 5 point victory by the Spurs, one blowout by the Mavs.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Okay, fine, it doesn't have to be Ariza. Qyntel Woods would have been a nice project as well, was an unrestricted free agent, and wouldn't have come in demanding starters minutes.

Fuck it. Maybe when all of our wings hit age 35 we can start thinking about a long SF or someone under the age of 28 to play out there.

[ChumpDumper]

Shhh!

Don't say the "Q" word. whottt may be here.

Woods might be talked into coming down here if he was overpaid, I'm just showing the team will have to make a trade for one of these guys.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

I hope to God a trade to address our long SF problem is coming. If not, we'll be on the wrong end of another series with the Mavs next summer.

[ducks]

Josh Childress your answer agh?

[SenorSpur]

:rolleyes

2 OT games, 2 one point margins, 1 two point margin, one 5 point victory by the Spurs, one blowout by the Mavs.

Of course the games were close, except for one, but you're underselling the point. The Spurs couldn't stop the Mavs offensively. Pop realized he had serious matchup problems against this team. Therefore, he changed his strategy and decided to go smaller and try to outscore them. Of course, he sacrificied rebounding in the process.

The Mavs clearly held an obvious advantage on the perimeter and on the glass against this team. Had it not been for Duncan's brilliance on offense, it may have been many more blowouts.

[SpursWillOwn]

Josh Childress without that fro's my answer

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Hell yeah, I'd be all for pilfering a SF from Atlanta, they've got enough of them (Childress, Smith, Williams).

[FromWayDowntown]

I hope to God a trade to address our long SF problem is coming. If not, we'll be on the wrong end of another series with the Mavs next summer.

In his comments after the Butler signing, R.C. specifically mentioned that problem, so you can at least be sure that the front office is aware that the problem exists.

Frankly, I'd rather see them work to find the right deal than do something rash and end up with someone who looks the part but can't get the job done.

[picnroll]

Of course those of us advocating putting someone like Tim or Nazr on him and having them lay off and daring him to shoot jumpers were chastized for it, yet here you are advocating the same thing.

It was always about turning Dirk into a jump shooter instead of giving him a matchup he could exploit and either shoot over or take to the rack.


That's where the FUCK SMALL BALL rant falls apart. Heat didn't lay off Dirk. Posey and Walker crowded him to contest the outside shot and could still stay in front of him. Nazr, Rasho and Horry (the real failure) couldn't.

[Quasar]

Posey and Walker crowded him to contest the outside shot and could still stay in front of him. That's because fouls got called on him left and right.

Don't really know why as I have yet to watch any game of that series because I was so disheartened after the loss I couldn't get around to downloading the games.

I was so sure the Spurs were gonna win game 7, down to the last 20secs... This is almost as bad as 0.4

[GhostofAlfrederickHughes]

Jesus, just let the Dallas series go already. It was a (mostly) tight, 7 game series that could have gone either way. In the end, Dallas got some of the additional luck, benefit of calls, and all the other 'intangibles' that teams that win those series get. Win some, lose some. Play it again, and it probably swings the other way.

Move on!

[Obstructed_View]

If only you were right. Miami defended him and defended him well. The Spurs could not.
Nowitzki's stats are virtually identical in the Heat series as the Spurs series. This is with Bowen unable to cover him full time due to the lack of shot blocking.


I agree that with different players, the Spurs MIGHT have had bigger leads on the Mavs. As close as the games were, the Spurs could not avoid the bad breaks they got in the last 10 seconds of some of those games.
A couple of centers and a backup point guard that the coach has some faith in would be nice for that.

[Obstructed_View]

That's where the FUCK SMALL BALL rant falls apart. Heat didn't lay off Dirk. Posey and Walker crowded him to contest the outside shot and could still stay in front of him. Nazr, Rasho and Horry (the real failure) couldn't.
So Antoine Walker and James Posey are better defenders than Tim Duncan and Bruce Bowen. Sensible.

By the way, the idea is to lay off Josh Howard and Devin Harris and turn THEM into jump shooters, figuring Dirk is going to do damage by being a great player.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Jesus, just let the Dallas series go already. It was a (mostly) tight, 7 game series that could have gone either way. In the end, Dallas got some of the additional luck, benefit of calls, and all the other 'intangibles' that teams that win those series get. Win some, lose some. Play it again, and it probably swings the other way.

Move on!

The problem with that viewpoint is that like it or not, we have to go through Dallas to get back to the NBA Finals.

Not looking at that series with them to identify our weaknesses is ignorant, and borderline criminal.

And it's not like Dallas is going anywhere. This igorant, myopic view that we were 'just one point away in a couple of games' is so ridiculous I don't even know where to start.

You're talking about a team that is still extremely young, just grew more confident in their play by leaps and bounds, and now has it in their head that they can beat the big bad Spurs. They got a taste of the Finals, and know what it takes to get there. Dirk has been elevated to Humpty Dumpty status (touch him, he falls off the wall and you get a foul), Josh Howard is blowing up, and Terry is about as cocky as an NBA two guard can be.

And we still basically have no answer for any of those three.

Saying we just need to improve 5 points over the course of 3 games to reclaim supremacy is about the dumbest thing I've ever heard on this site.

Dallas built a team to kill the Spurs. I want to see Spurs management build a team to kill small ball, and so far I'm not seeing it.

[furry_spurry]

The only way those two moves are HUGE is if the Spurs were getting desperate for big men. Butler- good move; Elson- he's going to have to prove he can play defense.

The problem with his opinion is that he acts as if there were only two options-- option 1; paying Nazr the MLE or option 2: Elson and Butler. We all know there were plenty of other options.

I also enjoy how people who hated Rasho and Nazr are so sure of what the Spurs can turn Elson into, especially given that Elson is older than both of them.

[alamo50]

I think Elson will be fine, but people should just accept him for what he is. A big guy who can run and shoot jumpshots. If he just does the basics on D, he'll be okay.

Word.

[mabber]

I wouldnt mind putting Finley on Dirk in that situation, he did guard Dirk decently when he had that assignment in the Dallas series.

Finley guarded Dirk in that series better than everyone else (including Bowen) on the Spurs. Obviously, Bowen is a much better defender than Finley but for some reason Dirk was missing his shots when Finley was on him. It was strange.

[picnroll]

So Antoine Walker and James Posey are better defenders than Tim Duncan and Bruce Bowen. Sensible.

Walker and Posey have a lot more lateral quickness than Duncan, particularly the plantar faciitis version of Duncan. And you may have missed the part where they switched Bowen to cover Howard and had Finley on Dirk.

[timvp]

The thing about Posey, Walker and Haslem is they are all very good rebounders for their size. You put one of them on Dirk and not only can they keep up with him, they also can keep him off the boards. Finley and Bowen are both bad rebounders for their size so it just doesn't work.

Not having anyone to guard Dirk and rebounding were the two main flaws last year.

And I'm still waiting for the Spurs to address either matter. , ,

[furry_spurry]

The thing about Posey, Walker and Haslem is they are all very good rebounders for their size. You put one of them on Dirk and not only can they keep up with him, they also can keep him off the boards. Finley and Bowen are both bad rebounders for their size so it just doesn't work.
Bingo!! Give that man a prize.

[Slinkyman]

Nowitzki's stats are virtually identical in the Heat series as the Spurs series. This is with Bowen unable to cover him full time due to the lack of shot blocking.


A couple of centers and a backup point guard that the coach has some faith in would be nice for that.

You couldn't be more wrong about that,
SA series vs. Mia Series:
FG% 52% vs. 39%
PPG 27.1 vs. 22.8
RPG 13.3 vs. 10.8

Pretty big differences there

[CaptainLate]

i totally agree. The only way we will bring a capable swing man is to free up minutes in the rotation more so than cap space.

Bowen - manu - finley are unmovable so it comes down to...

The only unmovables are Tim-Manu-TP-Bowen. Depending on the scenario, everyone else is expendable -- including Finley.

[strangeweather]

Where most of the Pop critics are coming from is the same place they were the day after our season ended - we need more youth, athleticism, and length on the perimeter.
Not to accuse you of revisionism or anything, but I could have sworn that the day after the season you went on and on about how we would have owned the Mavs if we had only played our centers. So the Spurs go out and get some centers that they have more confidence in, and now center wasn't the real problem at all?

WTF?

[furry_spurry]

So the Spurs go out and get some centers that they have more confidence in...

More Confidence??

"Spurs officials acknowledge Elson and Butler might not provide the same level of production as Mohammed and Rasho Nesterovic..."

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/stories/MYSA071306.1C.BKNspurs.vaughn.1585d2f.html

[strangeweather]

More Confidence??

"Spurs officials acknowledge Elson and Butler might not provide the same level of production as Mohammed and Rasho Nesterovic..."

http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/stories/MYSA071306.1C.BKNspurs.vaughn.1585d2f.html
So in your opinion the Spurs signed the centers they did to kill minutes in the regular season and keep Finley fresh for when he takes over as the starting PF again in next year's playoffs?

[furry_spurry]

That is the opinion of the Spurs themselves-- Elson and Butler are not as good as Rasho and Nazr- just cheaper

If Horry pulls his head out, they are place holders and minute-eaters for him. That, to me, has always been a big part of the irony. People already liked Rob because of his 2005 heroics and they don't seem to want to pin blame on him, but he is the guy who sucked so much against Dallas. That series was SUPPOSED to be for him. So many claim the Spurs went small because Pop lost faith in Nazr and Rasho- when actually it had much more to do with having no faith in Rob. No one in their right mind expected Rasho to match up against Dallas- but surely, Horry was supposed to and he played awful. Pop played Finley instead of Rob- even in the clutch.

[Beer is Good]

Elson and Butler will do just as well as Nazr and Rasho.

[furry_spurry]

Yoo do realize that the #5 big man from last season- Oberto- actually has a chance to start on opening night? People still don't want to believe me. No way the Spurs put any pressure on Butler and depending on whom the Spurs play- if Tim is at center, Oberto is at PF. Wait and see.

[ChumpDumper]

Why would the Spurs not put pressure on Butler if he's capable? I can see Oberto's starting because he knows the system better, but if Butler has a strong training camp, who knows?

[T Park]

I see Rasho's bitch has reemerged.

[z0sa]

Butler has the ability to be one of the best center's in the league, and after a season next to Tim, don't be surprised if hes well on his way there.

[mabber]

Butler has the ability to be one of the best center's in the league, and after a season next to Tim, don't be surprised if hes well on his way there.

Butler definitely has a lot of upside. As a Spurs fan you have to hope he realizes some of it before Duncan passes his prime in a couple of years.

[strangeweather]

That is the opinion of the Spurs themselves-- Elson and Butler are not as good as Rasho and Nazr- just cheaper
Not "provid[ing] the same level of production" is not the same thing as being less effective in the playoffs. Even if their PERs are lower, if they can provide us productive minutes in the playoffs, that will be quite a step up from this past season.

[Aggie Hoopsfan]

Not to accuse you of revisionism or anything, but I could have sworn that the day after the season you went on and on about how we would have owned the Mavs if we had only played our centers. So the Spurs go out and get some centers that they have more confidence in, and now center wasn't the real problem at all?

WTF?

Playing our centers would have helped. Strategically speaking, I feel it would have. The discussion on our (non) use of our centers focused on what we had available for use in that series. Not playing them was a strategic and personnel mistake. It's kind of pointless to complain about not having a long SF in that situation, because that's along the same lines as saying if we had Wade on our team we could have won.

What's the point? You don't talk about players you wish you had to use, you talk about about the ones you had sitting on the pine pulling splinters out of their rear ends while the Mavs waltzed in for layup after layup.

Since then, it appears that the Twin Towers concept is basically dead, based off the moves of the front office so far this summer. Not because it should, but based off the actions of Pop and RC they feel it is.

My comment about us needing a long three is because that was the penultimate personnel problem heading into the summer for this team, and it's still there three months later. X's and O's talk for the Mavs series has been beaten to death and shouldn't side track this thread about roster moves.

[strangeweather]

Playing our centers would have helped. Strategically speaking, I feel it would have. The discussion on our (non) use of our centers focused on what we had available for use in that series. Not playing them was a strategic and personnel mistake. It's kind of pointless to complain about not having a long SF in that situation, because that's along the same lines as saying if we had Wade on our team we could have won.

What's the point? You don't talk about players you wish you had to use, you talk about about the ones you had sitting on the pine pulling splinters out of their rear ends while the Mavs waltzed in for layup after layup.

Since then, it appears that the Twin Towers concept is basically dead, based off the moves of the front office so far this summer. Not because it should, but based off the actions of Pop and RC they feel it is.

My comment about us needing a long three is because that was the penultimate personnel problem heading into the summer for this team, and it's still there three months later. X's and O's talk for the Mavs series has been beaten to death and shouldn't side track this thread about roster moves.
Fair enough -- put in that context, I don't really disagree with you, except to say that I think their hope is that they can get good playoff minutes out of both Elson and Butler. And I agree -- getting younger and more athletic depth on the wing was our number two priority this offseason. They've added some interesting pieces inside, but haven't addressed the perimeter rotation yet (except for a third point).

I'm still hopeful that they are planning on addressing that area through a trade -- the have several potential pieces to trade, and things may open up more after August 21 when we can include Williams in a package. The other thing to remember is that, as an expiring contract, Williams' value will continue to grow from now until February. Even if we start the season with the roster we have in place, there are likely to be opportunities to trade up after some of the front offices realize that their teams suck and look to cut salary.

[CaptainLate]

Why would the Spurs not put pressure on Butler if he's capable? I can see Oberto's starting because he knows the system better, but if Butler has a strong training camp, who knows?

Correct. He did start some games for the NYK, yes?

[wildbill2u]

It's amazing how people seem to forget that. The Mavs made the Spurs look more like the Toronto Raptors in that series. Between Terry, Howard and Stack (at times) they were simply raining points on the Spurs "vaunted" defense.

Having Bowen superior abilities on Dirk or whoever the "hot guy" is is one thing, but doesn't account for all the opposition's offensive weapons.

Teams don't usually shoot 75% like Dallas did in one half. The Mavs are good shooters, but not that good. I don't know of a team in the league that could have stopped them on that roll in that one particular game.

Shit happens. :madrun

[wildbill2u]

Hell yeah, I'd be all for pilfering a SF from Atlanta, they've got enough of them (Childress, Smith, Williams).

Spurs tried to do a trade with them last year I think, offering Rasho plus???

They probably needed a center, but wouldn't take Rasho.

[wildbill2u]

That is the opinion of the Spurs themselves-- Elson and Butler are not as good as Rasho and Nazr- just cheaper

If Horry pulls his head out, they are place holders and minute-eaters for him. That, to me, has always been a big part of the irony. People already liked Rob because of his 2005 heroics and they don't seem to want to pin blame on him, but he is the guy who sucked so much against Dallas. That series was SUPPOSED to be for him. So many claim the Spurs went small because Pop lost faith in Nazr and Rasho- when actually it had much more to do with having no faith in Rob. No one in their right mind expected Rasho to match up against Dallas- but surely, Horry was supposed to and he played awful. Pop played Finley instead of Rob- even in the clutch.

Horry has had a fortunate career. He's made some big shots at crucial times--and everyone remembers those. I don't know it that's his luck, but how many shots did he miss that we remember.

Throughout his career, he's also had a reputation, fully earned, of disappearing into the wallpaper at times when he's really needed.

Since coming into the league, he has had all the physical assets to become a league superstar, but he's never even been a reliable star on his various teams. I warned everyone when he came to the Spurs that he'd give you some occasional thrills, but would break your heart in the end.

He didn't do much of anything against the Mavs and I don't forecast much improvement next year as his legs get another year older.

[Obstructed_View]

You couldn't be more wrong about that,
SA series vs. Mia Series:
FG% 52% vs. 39%
PPG 27.1 vs. 22.8
RPG 13.3 vs. 10.8

Pretty big differences there
Yeah, I could have sworn in was closer than that. However it's the difference between shooting jump shots and taking layups. The free throws brought the points per game up and the lack of centers allowed him to pull in boards. My statement was completely wrong, though.

[Obstructed_View]

Horry has had a fortunate career. He's made some big shots at crucial times--and everyone remembers those. I don't know it that's his luck, but how many shots did he miss that we remember.

Throughout his career, he's also had a reputation, fully earned, of disappearing into the wallpaper at times when he's really needed.

Since coming into the league, he has had all the physical assets to become a league superstar, but he's never even been a reliable star on his various teams. I warned everyone when he came to the Spurs that he'd give you some occasional thrills, but would break your heart in the end.

He didn't do much of anything against the Mavs and I don't forecast much improvement next year as his legs get another year older.
That's not fair. Horry has never been quick, a good defender or a good shot blocker. That's what the Spurs asked him to do.