Spurs vs. Mavs -- Current State [Archive]

timvp

07-25-2006, 04:05 PM

DALLAS MAVERICKS
PG: Jason Terry, Anthony Johnson
SG: Devin Harris, Jerry Stackhouse, Maurice Ager
SF: Josh Howard, Greg Buckner, Devean George
PF: Dirk Nowitzki, Austin Croshere
C: Erick Dampier, DeSagana Diop, DJ Mbenga, Pavel Podkolzine

Props to the Mavs so far this summer. They added guys with a history of being clutch in the playoffs (Johnson, George, Croshere), they upgraded their defensive specialist (Buckner >>> Griffin) and they got rid of duplicate talent (Daniels). On top of that, Ager got some pretty good reviews and might be a player.

I think the Mavs have gotten quite a bit better this summer. Anthony Johnson is a top three backup point guard. Austin Croshere fits in perfectly in their isolation offensive sets. Buckner, unlike Griffin, can actually play in the playoffs because he now can shoot the three. Marquis Daniels is a good player but his skillset didn't really help the Mavs.

Dallas hasn't done anything major but they tweaked their roster and made it even more playoff ready. They've gone about it in a very Spur-esque way instead of your traditional Cuban roster explosion.

SAN ANTONIO SPURS
PG: Tony Parker, Beno Udrih, Jacque Vaughn
SG: Manu Ginobili, Brent Barry
SF: Bruce Bowen, Michael Finley, Eric Williams
PF: Tim Duncan, Robert Horry, Matt Bonner
C: Francisco Elson, Jackie Butler, Fabricio Oberto

The Spurs have had pretty much a par summer. They lost Rasho and Nazr and replaced them with Elson, Butler and Bonner. It's tough to tell whether that threesome will be good enough to make the Spurs forget about their centers from last season.

The additions of Vaughn and Williams are for insurance more than anything. Vaughn is here just in case Beno collapses. Williams is here just in case the Spurs can't trade him before the season starts.

Questions:

1) Have the Mavs clearly surpassed the Spurs with their transactions this summer?

2) Is the Spurs' roster as it stands as good as their roster was at the end of last season?

3) Would you be confident against the Mavs next season if neither team made any more moves? If not, what moves do you think the Spurs need to make?

spurs_fan_in_exile

07-25-2006, 04:11 PM

1) Clearly? I'm not convinced. You can't really say whether or not a team has clearly improved by FA signings until you've seen the new guys play.

2) Given that the moves have gotten rid of two centers who Pop wouldn't play, I'd say the Spurs are still where they were last year just with a smaller payroll.

3) I would still be plenty confident, but I'd be even more confident if the Spurs can get themselves a young wing.

Should be a hell of a rivalry this year.

ChumpDumper

07-25-2006, 04:11 PM

1. Yes

2. No

3. Reggie Evans.

Where's my prize?

Mr. Body

07-25-2006, 04:12 PM

1) The Mavs surpassed the Spurs by beating them last year. They may be neck-and-neck with a healthy Spurs team. A big 'if' with a long summer for three starters.

2) The Spurs' roster is probably as good as it was last year. We have more 'versatility', the catch word of the summer, but it comes from a handful of sub-par players. Josh Howard by himself equals Elson, Bonner, and at this point Butler. Williams I don't expect will be on the team.

3) I wouldn't be confident if either team stays pat. The Spurs need a good, agile, young backup swingman. It doesn't have to be the long-term answer, but we need someone. Rebounding is still a huge problem.

1Parker1

07-25-2006, 04:17 PM

1) Have the Mavs clearly surpassed the Spurs with their transactions this summer?

Yes, Mavs made some minor, but good changes this offseason to counter the Spurs. Buckner is a vast improvement over Griffin and will be able to help defend Ginobili/Barry, etc. Not to mention he's a three point shooter which they needed last season, but couldn't find thanks to the disappearance of KVH. Same for Devean George, who always seems to do well against the Spurs. He's also not a bad defender to have coming off your bench.

Spurs on the other hand, while they definitely got rid of bench wasters Rasho and Nazr, may have shot themselves in the foot. Where's the rebounding? Where's the interior defense? Elson/Oberto/Butler are not going to give you much in those areas next season...at least any more so than Rasho/Nazr, imo. Also, I'm doubtful as to how much of a help they'll be in guarding Dirk next season, should the Spurs and Mavs meet up again. Finally, I'd feel more comfortable with Rasho guarding the Shaq and Yao's of the league, than the current combo.

I give Dallas the edge here.

2) Is the Spurs' roster as it stands as good as their roster was at the end of last season?

I'd say so. Considering the fact that Rasho/Nazr were hardly used in the Dallas series and NVE never showed up, the new roster is comparable to the old one.

3) Would you be confident against the Mavs next season if neither team made any more moves? If not, what moves do you think the Spurs need to make?

I'd have to wait until the season started and saw how Butler/Elson fared with the Spurs before I feel comfortable answering this. :angel

Kori Ellis

07-25-2006, 04:20 PM

3. The Spurs bench is old. I'd like to move someone to get younger on the wing.

If Butler starts, the Spurs bench will consistent of 7 guys between 30-36 plus Beno and Bonner.

Solid D

07-25-2006, 04:24 PM

Nice "Current State" LJ. Dallas has done a great job of re-signing key players too! That was not "a given".

Bruno

07-25-2006, 04:27 PM

FromWayDowntown

07-25-2006, 04:37 PM

After reading timvp's take, I've just gotten off the phone with the Spurs, asking that they refund the money I've paid for my season tickets.

:depressed

T Park

07-25-2006, 04:43 PM

:lol @ FWD

Amuseddaysleeper

07-25-2006, 04:44 PM

1) yes
2) No
3) I'll be nervous

td4mvp3

07-25-2006, 04:45 PM

[SIZE=6Questions:

1) Have the Mavs clearly surpassed the Spurs with their transactions this summer?

2) Is the Spurs' roster as it stands as good as their roster was at the end of last season?

3) Would you be confident against the Mavs next season if neither team made any more moves? If not, what moves do you think the Spurs need to make?[/COLOR]
1. have they gotten better players? yeah, depending on if this butler guy is as great as people seem to thing. but we were pretty close last year with what we had and the core's of both teams haven't changed that much. i think we're still pretty even.

2. yes. nazr was a constant disappointment throughout the season, rasho for much of his tenure, nve in the playoffs. at the very least we're equal right now.

3. confident, probably not. surprised that we beat them? not at all. we're neck and neck, and if duncan goes off on them like he did last year and manu does his thing without fouling, we don't even have this discussion.

timvp

07-25-2006, 04:45 PM

After reading timvp's take, I've just gotten off the phone with the Spurs, asking that they refund the money I've paid for my season tickets.

:depressed

Where's my take? I just threw the pitch.

Kori Ellis

07-25-2006, 04:47 PM

2) Is the Spurs' roster as it stands as good as their roster was at the end of last season?

I'd say so. Considering the fact that Rasho/Nazr were hardly used in the Dallas series and NVE never showed up, the new roster is comparable to the old one.

I don't get this argument and a lot of people seem to have it.

Just because Rasho/Nazr weren't useful against Dallas doesn't mean they weren't useful all last season for the Spurs. So, IMO, we can't just say ... yeah the team is equal because we didn't use Rasho/Nazr anyway. We did use them -- in 82 games during the season that got us to the playoffs.

So I will have reserve judgement on whether the team is as good as last year until I see Elson/Butler on the court. For all we know at this point, they could be a big upgrade (or downgrade) from Nazr/Rasho. Or they could be relatively equal. The Spurs have to win all season long -- not just against the Mavs.

E20

07-25-2006, 04:48 PM

Current state?

Dallas > San Antonio

Nothing else to really say or talk about.

T Park

07-25-2006, 04:50 PM

Im waiting till training camp to answer.

Im sure RC and pop are burning up the phone lines trying to package Barry and Williams for something.

timvp

07-25-2006, 04:52 PM

Im waiting till training camp to answer.

Way to go out on a limb about the current state of this intrastate battle.

G0D

07-25-2006, 04:55 PM

Bruno

07-25-2006, 04:57 PM

I don't get this argument and a lot of people seem to have it.

Just because Rasho/Nazr weren't useful against Dallas doesn't mean they weren't useful all last season for the Spurs. So, IMO, we can't just say ... yeah the team is equal because we didn't use Rasho/Nazr anyway. We did use them -- in 82 games during the season that got us to the playoffs.

I have too this argument.
I don't care how good will be Spurs next year in regular season, it's all about the playoff and matchups : Spurs can be worse against Atlanta if they are better against Dallas.
But if we met Houston with an healthy TMac and Yao, we will badly miss Rasho.

E20

07-25-2006, 04:57 PM

G0D

07-25-2006, 05:00 PM

God, how come you spell your name with a zero?

The Spurs need proven bigs to get a ship next year.

because somebody already took my name, pretending to be me

T Park

07-25-2006, 05:03 PM

Way to go out on a limb about the current state of this intrastate battle

Alright.

The Mavs are still better right now.

Adding Croshure is a sideways move to Van Horn.

Johnson is a solid backup for when Devin Harris dissapears ala games 5 6 and 7.

Devean George will help more than Spurs fans would like to let on.

George and Johnson make them more solid, and a better team than last year.

Spurs?

Its too much of an unknown of what they have gotten, and what they might get to say if they are better.

If Butler comes in, is agressive, rebounds the ball, and does what is asked.

Then they become better.

ShoogarBear

07-25-2006, 05:11 PM

1. Yes
2. No, no way. Look at the centers. There's a reasonable chance that, without improving a lick, last year's third-string center may end up this year's starter.
3. There is still one big intangible here. Mavs had a career season with Dirk having a career year . . . and still didn't win it. So you have to figure they have to play even better than they did last year. Can they do that, or will Terry become complacent and Dirk be listening to the whispers about his Finals performance? Spurs, on the other hand, had a record setting regular season with only Tony Parker having his best year. Parker figures to continue to improve, Manu and Tim can't have worst years than last. Oh, yeah, and the Spurs' core has already proven it knows how to win it all.

picnroll

07-25-2006, 05:15 PM

In the playoffs you go seven, maybe eight deep. Which player/s has Dallas added that will be in that top seven/eight? I don't think they've added a player that will see a lot of playing time in the playoffs unless one of their mainstays is injured.

Mavs have more depth to sustain an injury but for the Spurs to be even or better they need to improve their top seven/eight? Have they? Depends on whether Butler and/or Elson can do more than Nazr, Horry and/or Rasho or if some perimeter player, here or to be added, can do more than Van Exel and/or Barry. I find it hard to believe and will be disappointed if Pop and Buford don't have another move in them.

shaggy17

07-25-2006, 05:19 PM

Dalhoop

07-25-2006, 05:32 PM

Actually you got the Mavs line-up wrong, Harris will be the PG with Johnson as his back-up. (Minor point)

The moves alter the Mavs more then in just player moves. Harris wil now be the full-time PG and Terry the full-time SG. The two will be on the floor much more together this year then last.

Bottom line, they plan on playing speed ball all year long. This will effect the Spurs series because it will not be something that we will "try" but something that we will have been doing all year long.

As to the Questions

1) Have the Mavs clearly surpassed the Spurs with their transactions this summer?

In terms of just transactions ... Yes. They have signed their players (the ones they wanted) and traded to fill voids, however small.

If one is to say that the Mavs were the better team last year, then ... Yes, they are still the better team ... based on the moves.

2) Is the Spurs' roster as it stands as good as their roster was at the end of last season?

No, even if Butler and Elson are a wash with Rasho and Nazr (remains to be seen), the entire team is a year older .... Thats alot of age adding up.

3) Would you be confident against the Mavs next season if neither team made any more moves? If not, what moves do you think the Spurs need to make?

As a Mavs fan I am very confident. The Spurs need someone to guard Howard, thet didn't get that person, though Griffen would help.

Harris, Terry, Howard, Nowitzki, Diop
Parker, Manu, Bowen, Duncan, ?Butler?

Thats pretty close.

Johnson, Stackhouse, George, Crosher, Dampier
Udrih, Barry, Finley, Bonner, ?Elson?

Thats not even close, even putting in Williams, Vaughn, or Horry doesn't make it close. I do think that it is worth noting that the current Spurs centers wont see the floor vs the Mavs anymore then the last two ... They have no one to guard, until the Spurs take Bowen off of Nowitzki and trust the job of guarding him to someone else, it creates a situation that will keep Butler, Elson and Oberto off the floor.

kobe_bryant

07-25-2006, 05:36 PM

They upgraded their defensive specialist (Buckner >>> Griffin)
Buckner, unlike Griffin, can actually play in the playoffs because he now can shoot the three. Marquis Daniels is a good player but his skillset didn't really help the Mavs.

Buckner is a vast improvement over Griffin and will be able to help defend Ginobili/Barry, etc. Not to mention he's a three point shooter which they needed last season.

So what was the diffrenence between these two?
Just re-writing the words different your post?

SenorSpur

07-25-2006, 05:37 PM

Questions:

1) Have the Mavs clearly surpassed the Spurs with their transactions this summer?

With their overall youth, athleticism and new-found confidence, I believe the Mavs had a slight edge.

2) Is the Spurs' roster as it stands as good as their roster was at the end of last season?

Push

3) Would you be confident against the Mavs next season if neither team made any more moves? No.

If not, what moves do you think the Spurs need to make?
Sign either Qyntel Woods or trade for Trevor Ariza.

FromWayDowntown

07-25-2006, 05:38 PM

Where's my take? I just threw the pitch.

High and tight with some serious mustard.

You sold me at the first insinuation.

Kori Ellis

07-25-2006, 05:58 PM

I have too this argument.
I don't care how good will be Spurs next year in regular season, it's all about the playoff and matchups : Spurs can be worse against Atlanta if they are better against Dallas. But if we met Houston with an healthy TMac and Yao, we will badly miss Rasho.

:lol If they are worse than Atlanta, they won't make the playoffs. The point is that we don't know how many regular season games the Spurs will win with Elson/Butler upfront yet. So they might not even be in position to meet Dallas in the playoffs. That's why I choose to wait and see.

Butler might not be ready to be a full time starter.
Elson might not defend or rebound consistently in a starting role.
Spurs could end up with Oberto starting.

Kori Ellis

07-25-2006, 06:05 PM

Anyway to answer the questions.

Questions:

1) Have the Mavs clearly surpassed the Spurs with their transactions this summer?

Yes. They were already better than the Spurs and they have improved their roster.

2) Is the Spurs' roster as it stands as good as their roster was at the end of last season?

Wait and see. It depends on if Elson/Butler = Nazr/Rasho.

3) Would you be confident against the Mavs next season if neither team made any more moves? If not, what moves do you think the Spurs need to make?

Not at all. They didn't get by them last year and haven't address issues of rebounding, getting a younger bench, or bringing in an athletic forward (long 3/athletic 4 or whatever you want to call it).

dbestpro

07-25-2006, 06:07 PM

addition
Johnson, George, Croshere, Ager, Buckner
loss
Armstrong, Daniels, Van Horn, Griffen

The third string point guard spot is an ungrade, but not by much. Either way its pine time and really no help.

Griffen for Buckner is a wash.

So, the real issue comes down to Van Horn and Daniels for Croshere and George.

Dallas looses a lot from Van Horn to Croshere. Croshere can't hit the outside shot anymore and is slow of foot. Van Horn was slow too, but when he was healthy he could always hit the big three. I think they will miss Van Horn's offense from the bench.

The real damage occurs wth George who is older and slower and no where near the energy that Daniels provides. I believe that Dallas has actually slowed themselves a bit with this trades and in no way have they improved. The loss of Daniels alone drives home this point.

So, I believe Dallas has actually taken a step back. Has the Spurs moved back as well? That answer will be decided by the play of Butler and the still impending trades that will eventually occur with Barry and Williams. These trades may not happen until near the trade deadline during the season.

The real team to worry about in the west is the Suns. A healthy Stoudamire and Nash will win his first ring. Dallas has nothing that can compete with that and unless Butler can play out of his mind the Spurs will have trouble too.

Bruno

07-25-2006, 06:22 PM

The point is that we don't know how many regular season games the Spurs will win with Elson/Butler upfront yet. So they might not even be in position to meet Dallas in the playoffs. That's why I choose to wait and see.

Do you really think that Spurs won't make the playoff next year ?
The loss of Rasho/Nazr won't turn Spurs into a lottery team : if Spurs without Manu can be 12/5 last year, I have no doubt that Spurs without Rasho/Nazr will be able to win at least 50 games.

Butler might not be ready to be a full time starter.
Elson might not defend or rebound consistently in a starting role.
Spurs could end up with Oberto starting.

Butler is an upside guy, he can be a bust.
Elson is a solid player : he has played more minutes than Rasho or Nazr last year and has started more games than Rasho or Nazr.
A crazy way to turn the thing :
If Elson, who plays a lot of minutes last year, is able to make the playoffs with denver, will he be able to make the playoffs with a better supporting cast in SA ?

My point :
Spurs are talented enough with Duncan/Parker/Manu/Bruce/Finley/Pop to beat 80-90% of nba teams : we beat Sacramento who was a matchup nightmare only with our talent.
Spurs really need to matchup well against the other 10-20%.

Kori Ellis

07-25-2006, 06:25 PM

Do you really think that Spurs won't make the playoff next year ?
The loss of Rasho/Nazr won't turn Spurs into a lottery team : if Spurs without Manu can be 12/5 last year, I have no doubt that Spurs without Rasho/Nazr will be able to win at least 50 games.

Where did I say they won't make the playoffs. I'm not saying they won't be in the playoffs. I'm saying we have no idea if they will meet Dallas in the playoffs -- meaning they could get knocked out before meeting Dallas.

Butler is an upside guy, he can be a bust.
Elson is a solid player : he has played more minutes than Rasho or Nazr last year and has started more games than Rasho or Nazr.
A crazy way to turn the thing :
If Elson, who plays a lot of minutes last year, is able to make the playoffs with denver, will he be able to make the playoffs with a better supporting cast in SA ?

I don't think Elson is a solid player. He does some things well -- run and hit jumpers. But he's not a good rebounder, defender, or shotblocker. He doesn't have good hands. Maybe all those things will change in San Antonio, maybe not.

loveforthegame

07-25-2006, 06:31 PM

1) Have the Mavs clearly surpassed the Spurs with their transactions this summer?

So far, yes. They got a backup pg that is better than our 2 backups combined. They upgraded Griffin/Daniels with Buckner/George/Ager. And I must be the only one who thinks Croshere is an upgrade over KVH. He shoots 3's and rebounds and won't buckle under pressure like KVH.

They still have a roster spot open. I'm not sure if they s/t KVH for that player or sign a guy like Pops who they liked during summer league.

2) Is the Spurs' roster as it stands as good as their roster was at the end of last season?

It's hard to say. I'm tempted to say no.

Right now, we're hoping that Elson/Butler prove they're at least as productive as Rasho/Nazr were during the season. What if they're not? Does Pop sit them during the playoffs too?

I like Bonner as a scrappy/3 pt shooter. Williams is a question mark. Does he have enough left in the tank for spot minutes? I just don't see those minutes after Bowen/Finley.

I like Vaughn as a 3rd pg. I do like that signing. Beno is who I'm concerned about. I just can't believe he's going to be given the chance to win the backup role. Even if he proves himself in camp, how long before Pop yanks him back to the doghouse?

And we still haven't addressed the long athletic sf the FO pointed out as a need. Melzer sounds interesting but could he really be the answer?

Other than Butler and Bonner, we've not addressed getting younger either.

I guess August 21st will be a telling day.

3) Would you be confident against the Mavs next season if neither team made any more moves? If not, what moves do you think the Spurs need to make?

We'll have to see what the new additions bring to the table.

I'd like to see them upgrade Barry/Oberto/Udrih/Williams.

T Park

07-25-2006, 06:31 PM

I don't see where you guys think Stoudamire is going to return to form.

Players after this surgery NEVER return to form.

Dalhoop

07-25-2006, 06:40 PM

The third string point guard spot is an ungrade, but not by much. Either way its pine time and really no help.

Griffen for Buckner is a wash.

So, the real issue comes down to Van Horn and Daniels for Croshere and George.

Wow, this is completely wrong.

Starters - Harris, Terry, Howard, Nowitzki, Diop

Johnson becomes the #2 PG and Buckner the #2 or #3 SG (depending on Agers development)

Armstrong (No minutes), Danials (No minutes), KVH (Often injured), Griffen (offensive liability)

For ..

Johnson (#2 PG), Buckner (Shooting and Defence makes him an upgrade over Griffen and maybe the #2 SG), Croshere (Same game as KVH but more healthy; #2 PF), Goerge (Injury insurance), Ager (Showing good things to this point and will see some minutes this year at SG)

I would make that trade in a heartbeat.

I don't really think too much about the Suns, they are going through the biggest "IF" of any team in the NBA.

Bruno

07-25-2006, 06:40 PM

Where did I say they won't make the playoffs.

When you have said : "The point is that we don't know how many regular season games the Spurs will win" , I've thought that you think that Spurs won't make Playoffs. My bad if I haven't well understood.

I'm not saying they won't be in the playoffs. I'm saying we have no idea if they will meet Dallas in the playoffs -- meaning they could get knocked out before meeting Dallas.

Maybe but the loss of Rasho/Nazr won't be a huge loss against a lot of western playoff teams : when Duncan defend the opposite center, Rasho/Nazr are quite useless.

I don't think Elson is a solid player. He does some things well -- run and hit jumpers. But he's not a good rebounder, defender, or shotblocker. He doesn't have good hands. Maybe all those things will change in San Antonio, maybe not.

Quite agree, Elson is a downgrade from Rasho or Nazr. By solid, I mean that he is nba proven (even if he wasn't very good).

Bruno

07-25-2006, 06:43 PM

Johnson (#2 PG), Buckner (Shooting and Defence makes him an upgrade over Griffen and maybe the #2 SG), Croshere (Same game as KVH but more healthy; #2 PF), Goerge (Injury insurance), Ager (Showing good things to this point and will see some minutes this year at SG)

As I said before, you don't play with 6 or 7 players at the same time.

So let's say you are AJ : make the minute breakdown for Dallas in a Spurs-Mavs playoffs series ?

Cant_Be_Faded

07-25-2006, 06:52 PM

Yeah this is obviously going to be a gimmick season. Mavs got way better, spurs were worse before, now even more behind the curve. lol.

T Park

07-25-2006, 06:57 PM

Gimmick season?

BigVee

07-25-2006, 07:05 PM

I must have bee watching players with fake names on the back of their jerseys. George, Croshere, clutch? Are you serious? They will miss two for every one they make. Buckner better on Manu? Did anyone see the first round v. the Nuggets last year? Can't believe the doom and gloom. I watched a lot of Mav games last year and they got every break imagineable...down big and came back...shots going in the last second... that is not going to happen every year....just like the Pistons came back to earth at the end of the season. Can't wait to get it started. Then the speculation can go away.

Dalhoop

07-25-2006, 07:06 PM

make the minute breakdown for Dallas in a Spurs-Mavs playoffs series ?

PG - Harris (30), Terry (10), Johnson (8)
SG - Terry (20), Buckner (20), Stackhouse (4), Ager (4)
SF - Howard (30), Stackhouse (10), George (8)
PF - Dirk (35), Croshere (10), Stackhouse (3)
C - Diop (24), Dampier (24)

Dalhoop

07-25-2006, 07:10 PM

Of course if Buckner, Stackhouse or George gets hot they will absorb minutes from the other two.

picnroll

07-25-2006, 07:12 PM

Mavs' minutes/game in the Mavs - Spurs series

D. Nowitzki - 44.3
J. Howard - 37.7
J. Stackhouse - 35.0
D. Harris - 31.6
M. Daniels - 12.8*
E. Dampier - 24.6
D. Diop - 15.4
J. Powell - 0.7
D. Mbenga - 1.3
K Van Horn - 2.3
D Armstrong - 1.7
Griffin - 5.7*

* significant number of minutes from game that Terry missed for nut shoting Finley

So who's going to sit giving these prized acquisition all the additional floortime? Dirk? Stackhouse? Terry? Harris? Mavs have to keep the sumo wrestlers Diop and Dump on the floor to mug Duncan with.

Bruno

07-25-2006, 07:14 PM

PG - Harris (30), Terry (10), Johnson (8)
SG - Terry (20), Buckner (20), Stackhouse (4), Ager (4)
SF - Howard (30), Stackhouse (10), George (8)
PF - Dirk (35), Croshere (10), Stackhouse (3)
C - Diop (24), Dampier (24)

Thanks AJ.

Thanks for giving Terry who scored 20ppg against us only 30mpg while he can play 38 mpg.

Thanks for giving Stackhouse who scored 16ppg against us and hurt us with his physical style of play only 17mpg while he can play 30 mpg.

Thanks for giving Dirk who scored 27ppg against us and give us a matchup nightmare only 35mpg while he can play 42 mpg.

Thanks for giving Howard who scored 16 ppg and grab 7 rpg only 30 mpg while he can play 36 mpg.

Thanks AJ, your 2007 Mavs > 2006 Mavs.

Cant_Be_Faded

07-25-2006, 07:28 PM

The tides have totally changed; instead of the mavs fearing us and not wanting to play us, now its us who don't want anything to do with them. All we have to do is hope the new seeding system prevents us and them from meeting too early.

Dalhoop

07-25-2006, 07:32 PM

Thats the luxury of our team ... If your hot ... you play more, if your not ... you don't. The Mavs had different people step up in most games. Sometimes its Harris, others its Terry and more often then not Stackhouse. If your hot, you play more, if not, you don't. How many minutes did Stackhouse get in "off" games? Only Dirks minutes are set in stone.

With Stackhouse ... I think that he will be traded before the deadline ... He has a ruff contract.

NuGGeTs-FaN

07-25-2006, 07:54 PM

i wouldnt worry about Buckner in the playoffs :lol

Buck went 6 from 27 from 3 pt land during the first 4 games vs the Clippers. The only time he hit at a decent clip was during game 5 where he hit 4 from 5. The only reason he hit four from 5 was coz the Nuggets were down 20+ and he hit a few in the 4th qtr :lol

He Even managed a game where he went 0-8 and one where he went 1 from 7. Id rather KVH raining bombs over Buck :smokin

If i was a Mavs fan, id be more concerned about the impact that Frankie will have against them in the playoffs, instead of thinking Buck will help them in the postseason :smokin

Wanna see the effetciveness of Buck on D?

http://www.nba.com/statistics/player/Scoring.jsp?league=00&season=22005&conf=OVERALL&position=5&splitType=86&splitScope=GAME&qualified=N&yearsExp=-1&splitDD=vs%20Denver

SG's OWNED the Nuggets. Even an injury riddled Manu put up 18.7 on them.

Dont overrate Buck and make the same mistake as some of us Nuggets fan made :fro

strangeweather

07-25-2006, 08:13 PM

Questions:

1) Have the Mavs clearly surpassed the Spurs with their transactions this summer?

2) Is the Spurs' roster as it stands as good as their roster was at the end of last season?

3) Would you be confident against the Mavs next season if neither team made any more moves? If not, what moves do you think the Spurs need to make?

1. No. They've improved the bottom of their rotation by adding some nice backups. Barring key injuries or outright boredom, they should win more games in the regular season, and they should also be a somewhat tougher matchup in the postseason. Which still doesn't mean they've clearly surpassed us.

2. In the power rankings? Maybe not. We might only win 59 or 60 games next year. I don't think that's the issue, because I don't think the number of games we win in the regular season is going to be an issue for anything except playoff seeding. We might have to play a series or two on the road next year if our wins drop off and Dallas and Phoenix really tear things up.

Against the team that sent us home? Hell yes, we got better. We added a promising young center, and we added an older center whose main skill set seems to be the speed and mobility to play against quick Western Conference teams. His rebounding and blocking are pretty poor -- until you compare him with Michael Finley, who is the guy we had out there last year.

Yeah, based on regular season stats, we got worse. But here's a stat for you: 2 > 0. We have two centers that might earn minutes against the Mavs. Heck, even if Elson is a total face plant, 1 still > 0.

3. Confident? Of course not. But I'm not ready to write our team off yet, either. It should be another good dogfight.

Dalhoop

07-25-2006, 08:15 PM

Overrate? I had him at around 20 minutes a game. On the Nuggets he was the only threat from three land, here we have Terry (always around the top in the league in %), Stackhouse (streaky but does drive to the rim), Dirk (Nothing more to say there :) ) and Howard is starting to develop his long range shot.

I would bet that Buckner doesn't take more then 5 shots in any game next year, and if he misses most of them he could be on the pine for a "back-strain" :)

Russ

07-25-2006, 08:26 PM

The Spurs will beat the Mavs next year for the same reasons the Mavs won this year -- because the Spurs are hungrier and feel more disrespected. And they will not take their opponent for granted on their way to the match they are really looking to (Detroit last year).

Overanalysis of every off-season move has its place but . . .

It's an emotional game and the team that wants it more will win if they are close. That factor will be with the Spurs next year and it will mean a lot more than who the last guy on the roster is this year as opposed to last. :)

Guru of Nothing

07-25-2006, 08:39 PM

3) Would you be confident against the Mavs next season if neither team made any more moves? If not, what moves do you think the Spurs need to make?

Not at all. They didn't get by them last year and haven't address issues of rebounding, getting a younger bench, or bringing in an athletic forward (long 3/athletic 4 or whatever you want to call it).

Would the rebounding issues you mention have anything to do with the small-ball approach, or is it totally on the individuals?

In other words, does Pop need to make philosophical adjustments this off-season? If so, please discuss.

Bruno

07-25-2006, 08:47 PM

With Stackhouse ... I think that he will be traded before the deadline ... He has a ruff contract.

It will be a mistake if you don't get a SF back : If Howard is injured (like last year) or if he is in foul trouble (it happens sometimes with him) , only George will be able to play SF.

boutons_

07-25-2006, 08:58 PM

"the rebounding issues"

... dated way back into the season, did not erupt only in the playoffs.

We bitched about defense (aka hustle),
we bitched about uncontested layups,
we bitched about rebounding (aka hustle)

.... at a point in the season where we had to admit the poor performance was chronic, not episodic.

Fuck the simpletons harping on 63 W, the Spurs just didn't want it bad enough in 05/06. March/April sucked, and the Spurs couldn't turn it on in the playoffs.

GrandeDavid

07-25-2006, 09:05 PM

I think the Spurs are still the better team. They'll prove me right next season.

Mavs<Spurs

07-25-2006, 09:41 PM

Wow, what happened last year? Did we get swept last year and I missed it?

People are conceding too much from a close series.

They are overestimating Dallas and underestimating Tim Duncan.

If the Heat can beat them in the Finals, we can beat them also.

RuffnReadyOzStyle

07-25-2006, 09:43 PM

Spurs are like the Cowboys. they dont spend a lot of money and actually go further then there rivals and win the right way.

Mavs are like the Redskins. they use signing bonuses and get a lot of players but always underachieve.

Redskins/Mavs finally got past their rival. now will it be a fluke or are they actually turning the corner?

G0D has nailed it.

We generally do better with less, they spend to their heart's content.

On paper, they are the better team, but what does paper mean?

It's too hard to judge this offseason until they actually hit the court. I think we did about as well as we could given the circumstances.

PS How much did they pay Johnson and Buckner?

Mavs<Spurs

07-25-2006, 09:44 PM

Did the Mavs sweep the Spurs in 4 last year and I just missed it?

I thought I saw a 7 game series which had 3 overtime games including the last one. Am I just imagining things? Please don't jump. Come off of the ledge.

I know this will probably get locked, but it is worth it.

Mavs<Spurs

07-25-2006, 09:46 PM

Really.

Perhaps people are trying a kind of reverse jinx.

Is that what's going on or did half the Spurs fans just lose their heart as well as their mind?

Leetonidas

07-25-2006, 09:50 PM

I don't get it.

spurs=bling

07-25-2006, 09:51 PM

what are you talking about?

conqueso

07-25-2006, 09:51 PM

Leetonidas

07-25-2006, 09:51 PM

The series was two months ago man. It's over.

Mavs<Spurs

07-25-2006, 09:52 PM

Clearly, then, many posters here think Spurs are mediocre, Mavs are world beaters and

Mavs > Spurs by so much that probably Mavs will sweep the Spurs in 4 just like last year.

The words Tim Duncan and plantar fascitis appear to be unknown to some here.

Season ain't over yet folks.

Believe!

Whatever happened to believe. Tim Duncan healthy is the best player in the world (remember offense and defense not just offense counts).

Mavs<Spurs

07-25-2006, 09:57 PM

The series was two months ago man. It's over.

Anyone ever watch Rocky 3. After Clubber Lang knocked Rocky out, Rocky was so shaken from his beating that he could not even think about getting back into the ring again with Clubber.

The Spurs fans are like Rocky after the beating from Clubber.

Many have jumped to conclusions because we lost a close series to the Mavs that the Mavs are way, way better than us.

Evidence is not all in yet, but I think that the demise of the Spurs is greatly exaggerated and very premature.

Mavs<Spurs

07-25-2006, 09:59 PM

what are you talking about?

At least half the Spurs fans here are posting that the Mavs are better than the Spurs.

We lost a close series. If the Mavs had actually swept us last year in 4, then perhaps the conclusions that the Mavs are much better than us would be justified. However, that is not what happened.

There is not enough evidence in to justify any certainty to the conclusion that the Mavs are much better than us.

It might be true, but it might not be and I think that it is a little early to jump to that conclusion.

spurs=bling

07-25-2006, 10:03 PM

At least half the Spurs fans here are posting that the Mavs are better than the Spurs.

We lost a close series. If the Mavs had actually swept us last year in 4, then perhaps the conclusions that the Mavs are much better than us would be justified. However, that is not what happened.

There is not enough evidence in to justify any certainty to the conclusion that the Mavs are much better than us.

It might be true, but it might not be and I think that it is a little early to jump to that conclusion.
i've never said that the mavs are better than the spurs. the spurs lost. it wasn't our year,and it wasn't the mavs year either. i still think that the spurs can win it again. and i'm looking foward to the new basketball season, Duncan has left me wanting to see more 30+ point games from him.

Mavs<Spurs

07-25-2006, 10:05 PM

Some Spurs fans remind me of what happened to Rocky in Rocky 3 after he lost to Clubber Lang. Who's afraid of the big bad wolf?

Yeah, Dallas is invincible just ask the Heat. And Spurs can't beat anybody, just don't ask Tim Duncan.

GrandeDavid

07-25-2006, 10:06 PM

Ed Helicopter Jones

07-25-2006, 10:08 PM

1. no
2. yes
3. granger

Mavs<Spurs

07-25-2006, 10:09 PM

i've never said that the mavs are better than the spurs. the spurs lost. it wasn't our year,and it wasn't the mavs year either. i still think that the spurs can win it again. and i'm looking foward to the new basketball season, Duncan has left me wanting to see more 30+ point games from him.

Exactly.

If only more Spurs fans were more optimistic about this upcoming season like us.

But to some, the cup is half empty and the sky is falling chicken little.

Mavs<Spurs

07-25-2006, 10:12 PM

Bro, Clubber whipped Rocky's ass in one or two rounds. The Spurs were kicked by refs, whining, bad luck and boneheaded execution in losing three extremely close games. I would compare that series more to the fight in Rocky II.

Exactly!!! Clubber did wax Rocky and the Mavs barely beat us in a close series. So, while I understand how Rocky got depressed and felt like he could not win, I don't understand how some Spurs fans are so pessimistic about our chances to beat Dallas next year.

That's part of my point. It was a 7 game series which was very close and which had a lot of questionable calls.

So, this pessimism is not at all justified.

Mavs<Spurs

07-25-2006, 10:14 PM

spurs=bling

07-25-2006, 10:17 PM

For me, this ultimately boils down to the question:

Is a healthy Tim Duncan the best player in the world (if you count offense and defense -- not just offense like some)?

My answer to that question is yes.

That is all.
Timmy is a great player. even though we lost the series. Tim was scoring 30,40 points a game. sadly enough he isn't appreciated by some people.

Mavs<Spurs

07-25-2006, 10:20 PM

Timmy is a great player. even though we lost the series. Tim was scoring 30,40 points a game.

True, he had an awesome game 7 which thanks to TPark (assisted by Kori) I was privileged to watch.

It is my belief that the Spurs playoffs were affected by how they played in the regular season. I do not think that we played Spurs basketball in the regular season. Tony played great and carried us a lot, but he dominated the ball. We became used to that. When it came down to the playoffs, we were not as comfortable and as crisp at executing our offense through Tim and still getting other people involved.

That's my opinion.

RogerIsEatingASandwich

07-25-2006, 10:23 PM

1. No, not quite...as long as Manu plays better and our guys stay healthy
2. No, we have no clue how well Butler or Elson will perform for us.
3. No, we need a long three.

violentkitten

07-25-2006, 10:49 PM

2012 is ours, bitches.

RogerIsEatingASandwich

07-25-2006, 10:53 PM

2012 is ours, bitches.

:lol :depressed

Ed Helicopter Jones

07-25-2006, 10:54 PM

2012 is ours, bitches.

I'd be with you on that if it were an odd-numbered year! :lol

violentkitten

07-25-2006, 10:57 PM

rich melzer save us

confined

07-25-2006, 11:08 PM

my 2 cents...

diop / damp/mbenga > elson/ butler
dirk/ croshere = dunacn/ bonner
howard/ george/stack > bowen/ williams/barry
terry/ buckner/ager = manu/fin
harris/ johnson = parker/ beno/ vaughn

IMO we hold a clear advantage in the 5 and 3

i really dont think u guys get it...the spurs need to make moves to get better and to counter teams...right now they just dont have the personel to match the mavs or suns

violentkitten

07-25-2006, 11:10 PM

wait, no fucking way. dont be shitting me now. without you we couldnt have figured that out.

ShoogarBear

07-25-2006, 11:14 PM

ChumpDumper

07-25-2006, 11:16 PM

Mavfan drops the paper champion post!

Took him long enough!

violentkitten

07-25-2006, 11:18 PM

2007
all of cube's curses and all of cube's men ;) couldnt get the mavs back to the finals again

violentkitten

07-25-2006, 11:21 PM

2007
the butler did it

sorry, i had to be the first

Cant_Be_Faded

07-25-2006, 11:23 PM

Shit, the Spurs had less talent than the Mavs almost every year of the Dirk-Fin-Nash triumvirate.

Spurs have never had the most talented team. It's about the parts fitting together and addressing the weaknesses.

It's also going to be about whether Dirk is going to have another year like last one, or whether Finals Dirk is the real Dirk.

EXCELLENT post, and possibly the best collective truths we can come up with. About dirk:

His German Shot Doctor explicitely told the Dallas Morning News that Dirk was at level 7 of his 12(14?) step program that he devised for Dirk to reach his potential since he was a boy. He said Dirk will become far far greater than he is now. But non hypothetically speaking, the one thing I noticed Dirk did this season was take far less threes for more dependable short range jumpers. This technique works for him like a charm with the new rules cuz he becomes one of the most dangerous free throw shooters while remaining a jump shooter. IMO, that garbage about him improving rebounding and defense is just that: garbage. He forces us to play small and NATURALLY rebounds well.

I personally think Dirk is a choke job, who rode a shitload of momentum into the greatest post season of his career. Look at the final quarter of the season. Choke Job.

My opinion stated, he is still the most dangerous threat. But what more could he possibly do? Barring more future rule changes, what could Dirk possibly do to become better? I know that what we saw last postseason was the best Dirk that Dirk can ever be. I just know it. He'll never be able to bang with a real powerforward, and is just as shitty a defender as he was back in the day.

Shoog said something we all know but maybe just haven't heard it said in a while: We've never had the best talent. Mavs were LOADED in '03.

The only caveat is that this time around, instead of addressing minor needs, our need is HUGE: rebounding.

And I feel we have done nothing to address it.

SequSpur

07-25-2006, 11:28 PM

Deven George sucks.

The Spurs need to get rid of the reason they lost to Dallas.

Ginobili's brain.

Cant_Be_Faded

07-25-2006, 11:28 PM

Deven George sucks.

The Spurs need to get rid of the reason they lost to Dallas.

Ginobili's brain.

Yeah I hate Ginobili now.

Beer is Good

07-25-2006, 11:33 PM

Deven George sucks.

The Spurs need to get rid of the reason they lost to Dallas.

Ginobili's brain.
Or they could just off the refs and david stern mobster style. Go Goodfellas on them. That was as big of a reason as any.

ShoogarBear

07-25-2006, 11:35 PM

Damn, nobody makes me laugh louder than Sequ.

I agree that I don't see Dirk improving any more, while TP probably will, and Manu should have a better year, and Tim's PF (knock wood) won't be haunting him. Just those three having better seasons than last may be enough, if everybody else can do their jobs.

Leetonidas

07-25-2006, 11:36 PM

1) Have the Mavs clearly surpassed the Spurs with their transactions this summer?

While the Spurs did get two centers, one of whom is only 21 and holds massive upside and potential, the Mavs dumped Daniels, got Croshere, Johnson, Deaven George, Buckner and Ager. The Spurs definetly were on the right track to counter the Mavs with the aquisition of Matt Bonner. Robert Horry couldn't hit jack in the WCSF and Matt Bonner is a great 3 point shooter. This should give Tim more room to operate, and given that, Tim is unstoppable.

The Spurs' trasnactions aren't over yet though, IMO.

2) Is the Spurs' roster as it stands as good as their roster was at the end of last season?

Minus Van Exel, minus Rasho, minus Nazr, plus Bonner, plus Elson, plus Butler, plus Williams, plus Vaughn. I'd say better. Vaughn will be able to play much better as a backup PG if needed than NVE and he defends much better. Bonner is a good floor spacer and should give Tim more room to operate. Elson and Butler are a good 1-2 punch at the center position. Let's face it, Nazr and Rasho didn't do much. Butler has a good post game and Elson is fast for a big man.

3) Would you be confident against the Mavs next season if neither team made any more moves? If not, what moves do you think the Spurs need to make?

I would be. The Spurs have never been more talented than the Mavericks as a whole, and it's all about determination. Manu made one mistake that cost this team Game 7. That won't happen next year. HOWEVER, I would like to see the Spurs go after a SF to make this offseason complete.

Solid D

07-25-2006, 11:37 PM

Yeah I hate Ginobili now.

Nice sig for someone

Beer is Good

07-25-2006, 11:40 PM

Yeah I hate Ginobili now.
Damn, talk about fair weather... you gonna hate UT if the freshman QB's suck this year? I hope they don't, but you never know

infinite styles

07-25-2006, 11:41 PM

They lost Rasho and Nazr and replaced them with Elson, Butler and Bonner. It's tough to tell whether that threesome will be good enough to make the Spurs forget about their centers from last season.

I had forgotten about Rasho and Nazr by game 3 so I doubt that it will be too hard for that to happen.

timvp

07-25-2006, 11:42 PM

Cant_Be_Faded

07-25-2006, 11:42 PM

Damn, talk about fair weather... you gonna hate UT if the freshman QB's suck this year? I hope they don't, but you never know

I was joking, but honestly, if you set up the big three on the Faith Scale:

Duncan tops with ~999 points

Parker is at about 300

And Ginobili came into the playoffs with a 350 but is now at like a 180

So as you can see, I still like him, but his faith points took a major hit.

Cant_Be_Faded

07-25-2006, 11:44 PM

What if Pop is willing to put Elson on Dirk? The Spurs sure have made a lot of noise about that Dutch guy's speed.

If Pop is willing to try Elson on Dirk, that could explain why the Spurs don't think they need anymore moves. They've also mentioned that Eric Williams is a guy who could possibly guard Dirk. So perhaps the Spurs see Elson and Williams as their Haslem and Posey.

I don't think Elson can guard Dirk any better than Rasho or Horry but I this theory would explain why the Spurs aren't out desperately searching for a Long Three.

We should save this question for later, cuz I think its safe to say most of us have no real first hand view of Elson on the court. I never even heard of him before a couple weeks ago.
Everything I know about him comes from this board.
If he can do a decent job on him, he still needs to rebound doesn't he?

strangeweather

07-25-2006, 11:51 PM

What if Pop is willing to put Elson on Dirk? The Spurs sure have made a lot of noise about that Dutch guy's speed.

If Pop is willing to try Elson on Dirk, that could explain why the Spurs don't think they need anymore moves. They've also mentioned that Eric Williams is a guy who could possibly guard Dirk. So perhaps the Spurs see Elson and Williams as their Haslem and Posey.

I don't think Elson can guard Dirk any better than Rasho or Horry but I this theory would explain why the Spurs aren't out desperately searching for a Long Three.
Other than a midrange jumper, the only identifiable skill that Elson brings to the table is his ability to run the floor decently. I don't know that they see the problem as solved -- I still think they're looking for the right trade -- but I think they think Elson can give them decent minutes against the Mavs.

They may think the same thing about Bonner. I don't know what to think about Williams, since they haven't so much as introduced him.

SequSpur

07-25-2006, 11:51 PM

spurs support is at an all time low right now. only a person in a coma wouldn't be critical of Pop's game plan in the playoffs and his off season moves.

Players like bonner, williams, elson, butler and vaughn couldn't get beer selling minutes on the Silver Stars team. Horry and Bowen are another day older. Beno must be Pop's illegitimate son. He isn't worthy of getting minutes doing the Sean Elliott make a bed contest.

There is no hope for the Spurs. Dallas is going to run away with the division and the Spurs will probably be the 5th or 6th seed going into the playoffs.

I took it upon myself to notify the Spurs sales dept. before they asked. Saved them some time.

It's going to be a great year.

furry_spurry

07-25-2006, 11:58 PM

As I said all last year when people focused on matching up with Detroit and that never even happend, I predict the Spurs will not even play Dallas in the play-offs next year.

As for the questions-- no matter how you slice it or upon whom you want to put the blame, Dallas beat SA in 2006 and the Spurs have not improved while Dallas has. No way is that current roster at this point in time better than the previous one. In the past 2 seasons, Tim only had to play 33.4 and 34.8 minutes per game- down from his career averages- and the Spurs still won 59 and 63 games. I just wonder how many minutes he may have to play just to win regular season games-- Horry, as well.

Beer is Good

07-25-2006, 11:59 PM

Buddy Holly

07-26-2006, 12:04 AM

Yeah, a series/season is won on paper.

Great thread! :rolleyes

ShoogarBear

07-26-2006, 12:35 AM

You're right. Let's talk about comparative per capita incomes instead.

Mavs_man_41

07-26-2006, 12:47 AM

People need to stop forgetting the Suns a team who will be better then the Mavs and could very much be better then the Spurs if Amare is anywhere near the 04-05 player. They can win the west next year and they have what it takes to do it.

STFU and look what micro fracture surgury did to penny hardaway and allan houston. Just to say the suns will be better than the mavs, and "maybe better than the spurs" is ignorant. First of all if they are better than the mavs then i garantee they will be better than the spurs. The spurs dont have near the athleticism to match up with the suns. Amare Stoudamire will be very fortunate to be the player he was and was going to be. Microfracture surgery is no joke. Why dont u wait and see what happens before u make idiotic assumptions.

Mavs_man_41

07-26-2006, 12:50 AM

ATX Spur

07-26-2006, 01:06 AM

Half the people posting on this page need to go outside and take a deep breath. You get so worked up over nothing.

mavsfan1000

07-26-2006, 01:18 AM

I see the spurs having a good chance at winning next year. It really is hard to predict but I would give the slight edge to the mavs but anything can happen.

Roundrockers

07-26-2006, 01:25 AM

I cant take it anymore!! I found this board last week and I think overall its 10 times better then any other Spur forum I have seen and most seem to have a good basketball I.Q., but a whole lot of the posters are annoying little t!tt!e babies. Im seeing things like 5th in the confrence, Mavs are way superior, were way to old, Elson and Butler are scrubs, etc.. I know most of the people on here have been Spurs fans since before 2005, stop crying and try to have a little faith in the coaching staff that has brought you three championships in the last 8 years. I recall winning a championship with Jarron Jackson as our starting 2, then the spurs followed that with another championship starting a 2 guard that had a career average of about 4 pts a game going into that season. The Spurs then won a third championship with Nazr "couldnt catch a freaken cold" Homed as there starting Center. As long as the Spurs have Pop and the big three their chances of winning a championship is the same as it was in 99-05, and it will be that way for at least 4 or 5 more years. Like always the spurs will win 57-63 games and they will either win a championship or loose in a heartbreaking fashion to the eventual confrence champs. I cant believe some of you guys havent figured that out!

shaggy17

07-26-2006, 01:26 AM

STFU and look what micro fracture surgury did to penny hardaway and allan houston. Just to say the suns will be better than the mavs, and "maybe better than the spurs" is ignorant. First of all if they are better than the mavs then i garantee they will be better than the spurs. The spurs dont have near the athleticism to match up with the suns. Amare Stoudamire will be very fortunate to be the player he was and was going to be. Microfracture surgery is no joke. Why dont u wait and see what happens before u make idiotic assumptions.

:rolleyes :blah The suns took you to 6 games with no kurt thomas,no amare, and a 1 legged raja bell and they nearly pushed you the full 7. The suns have proven they can beat the mavs when healthy but they havent proven they can beat the Spurs yet. I also said IF Amare comes back and can be anything close to that you guys wont beat them. Also the Heat didnt have the athleticim the mavs had and they still beat you in a 7 game series.Also stop acting like your run to the finals was impressive. Bullshit refs in games 3 and 4 along with that hack Dirk got away with at the end of game 7 but that shit hit the fan on you fuckers in the finals which justified this whole situation to an extent. :lol Go watch your championship dvd...oh wait you fuckers have yet to win one. Yes Tim Duncan can be argued as the best player in the world what is your fucking point? Want to throw your all star Dirk as the #1 guy?? And Yes I said all star because he is a soft piece of shit who proved he cant perform in the clutch when the refs arent by his side and SUPERSTARS dont rely on that. SUPERSTARS also arent scared as shit to take shots in the 4th quarter of game 6 of the finals.

ChumpDumper

07-26-2006, 01:27 AM

Dude, you can say tittie.

Titty even, that's your style.

ATX Spur

07-26-2006, 01:30 AM

Pretty much sums up the board. A handful of knowledgeable NBA fans, and then others who worry, complain, and oversell toughness to fans of opposing teams. But that's how people are. This forum is still a great place to get lots of basketball info.

Roundrockers

07-26-2006, 01:31 AM

Roundrockers

07-26-2006, 01:33 AM

Dude, you can say tittie.

Titty even, that's your style.

Sweet, I come from a strict land

J.T.

07-26-2006, 01:39 AM

Dude, you can say tittie.

Titty even, that's your style.

I know this guy on another forum that uses $hit and a$$ like it's second nature. Some people must be afraid of cursing on the internet...god forbid what they would do if someone linked them to a nudie photo.

I say fuck $elf-cen$or$h!p

Kori Ellis

07-26-2006, 01:50 AM

Half the people posting on this page need to go outside and take a deep breath. You get so worked up over nothing.

No one is worked up. It's called discussion. It's what people do.

Don't want to discuss this topic. Go to another one.

Simple.

RogerIsEatingASandwich

07-26-2006, 01:57 AM

You cocky piece of shit.......You really think Tim Duncan is the best player in the world? Fuck this spurs homerism thread.

Well then, who do you think is the best player in the world?

J.T.

07-26-2006, 02:02 AM

Well then, who do you think is the best player in the world?

Dirk Nowitzki for $500, Alex.

ChumpDumper

07-26-2006, 02:05 AM

You cocky piece of shit.......You really think Tim Duncan is the best player in the world? Fuck this spurs homerism thread.
http://www.sportal.it/sportal/immagini/imagelib/70260.jpg

ShoogarBear

07-26-2006, 02:12 AM

Dirk Nowitzki for $500, Alex.
Unless he's getting D-up'd by another one of those exercise bikes.

RogerIsEatingASandwich

07-26-2006, 02:14 AM

Unless he's getting D-up'd by another one of those exercise bikes.

:lol

:spin

Mavs_man_41

07-26-2006, 02:44 AM

Well then, who do you think is the best player in the world?

As much as I hate to say it Kobe Bryant is the best player in the world. And no dirk is not close.

Mavs_man_41

07-26-2006, 02:55 AM

Dirk Nowitzki for $500, Alex.

Lol i think its funny how u guys think all mavs fans just ride dirk's nuts all day and think hes the best player ever. I'll be the first to tell u that Dirk needs to become alot more clutch and play defense before he even thinks about being the best player in the world.

J.T.

07-26-2006, 03:01 AM

Well he won the three point contest, show some respect.

z0sa

07-26-2006, 04:15 AM

You cocky piece of shit.......You really think Tim Duncan is the best player in the world? Fuck this spurs homerism thread.

Obviously you didn't see Duncan sink 32/11/3 during the playoffs on your ass... with an injury.

Let's also not forget than before the 06 season started, Tim was #1 on everybody's Best Player list.

AFBlue

07-26-2006, 07:49 AM

1) Have the Mavs clearly surpassed the Spurs with their transactions this summer?

2) Is the Spurs' roster as it stands as good as their roster was at the end of last season?

3) Would you be confident against the Mavs next season if neither team made any more moves? If not, what moves do you think the Spurs need to make?[/COLOR]

Didn't read the whole five pages, so I don't know when this turned into a Tim v. Dirk thing, but to comment on the original questions...

1) The Mavs have become the "deeper" team with their off-season transactions, but as someone else said, you can only put five on the floor at one time. Being deeper gives you more options, but it doesn't necessarily make you better. One could argue that the Mavs were deeper than us last year and they pretty much stuck to an 8 man rotation in the playoffs.

2) This is a tough question, a great one, but tough. It's best if we go by position:

C: Wash - we added athleticism and upside, but subtracted proven production.

PF: Upgrade - Tim is healthy, added depth and long range shooting (Bonner); downer is that Big Shot and Oberto are 1yr older

SF: Downgrade - Bowen is 1 yr older and will play alot this summer, Finley is 1yr older, Williams is most likely IL material

SG: Wash - Manu is healthy, but will play alot this summer and Barry is 1yr older

PG: Upgrade - Tony Parker is 1yr older (a positive in this case) and should extend his shooting range out to 3pt line, Beno's growth was stinted by NVE taking minutes, not a problem w/ Vaughn so he should see more time and production

This assesment is also based on the Current Roster, and I fully expect the Spurs to trade expiring contracts (Williams) and/or duplicate talents (Old shooter Brent Barry) to get younger and more athletic. Either way, our team is still driven by three players and it depends on how they perform...based on Tim's playoff performance, Manu gaining confidence in world play (had stellar season after winning gold), and TP's expected growth I'd say our roster is better.

3. Another good question.... as even as it was last year, I think it'd be foolish for anyone to say their "confident" the Spurs can beat the Mavs, but I know they haven't taken a step back w/ the current roster.

reydawg

07-26-2006, 10:07 AM

Spurs vs. Mavs -- Current State

What is Texas, Alex?

cheguevara

07-26-2006, 10:09 AM

WGAF how we stack up vs. Mavs??? season hasnt even started. anything could happen

LEONARD

07-26-2006, 10:37 AM

Good thread :fro

I think the Mavs slightly improved...
I think the Spurs are about the same...
I think a series next season, barring either team missing either of it's top 3 players will go 7 games again and basically be a coin flip... :smokin

fonzy16

07-26-2006, 12:01 PM

Mavs
great, with a small upgrade

SpurS
- lost defensive center, rebounder
- who will rebound
- who will guard Nowitzki
- who will guard Shaq

ducks

07-26-2006, 01:15 PM

will shaq be a force in the finals if shaq gets there?

ponky

07-26-2006, 02:16 PM

Nothing's clear until gametime. On paper, the Mavs look very good as an overall team but then again, the Spurs have a better and more experienced trio right now with Duncan/Parker/Ginobili and it looks like Duncan is back judging from the way he played in the playoffs. Regardless of what happens, I'm looking forward to the games, they should be exciting.

velik_m

07-26-2006, 02:48 PM

will shaq be a force in the finals if shaq gets there?

he will be if they guard him with finley.

LaMarcus Bryant

07-26-2006, 05:42 PM

I am shocked by how well timvp likes Buckner.

Dalhoop

07-26-2006, 06:40 PM

Can you believe that the Mavs are talking about a Croshere for Martin trade (with a KVH sign and trade to make numbers match)?

I think this would be a step back for the Mavs.

ChumpDumper

07-26-2006, 06:43 PM

They'd have to wait awhile to do that.

Dalhoop

07-26-2006, 06:47 PM

If he didn't like the minutes battle in Denver vs Camby, what do you think he will do in Dallas? There is no way that he will take any of Dirks minutes

Shank

07-26-2006, 07:10 PM

November 2nd - Mavs/Spurs

big3bigD

07-26-2006, 07:45 PM

Can you believe that the Mavs are talking about a Croshere for Martin trade (with a KVH sign and trade to make numbers match)?

I think this would be a step back for the Mavs.

I've been hearing that it will be Dampier and a KVH sign and trade for KMart.

I agree though that they shouldn't do it. KMart is both overpaid and overrated.

ChumpDumper

07-26-2006, 07:47 PM

:lol where were you guys the other day to explain this to the other, less intelligent Mavfans?

LaMarcus Bryant

07-26-2006, 07:49 PM

Whottt is a big KMart fan.

Mavs_man_41

07-26-2006, 09:10 PM

Kenyon Martin may be over paid and overrated but Dampier is just plain garbage. A healthy Kenyon Martin is 10 times more productive than Erick Dampier.

mavsfan1000

07-26-2006, 09:12 PM

Erick Dampier is a rebounding beast. He also clogs up the middle on defense. He does have weaknesses but Dallas wouldn't have gotten to the finals without Dampier.

ChumpDumper

07-26-2006, 09:13 PM

I heartily endorse this deal. Please do it as quickly as possible.

Eric Dampier

07-26-2006, 09:15 PM

Erick Dampier is a rebounding beast. He also clogs up the middle on defense. He does have weaknesses but Dallas wouldn't have gotten to the finals without Dampier.

we made the Finals?

THE SIXTH MAN

07-26-2006, 09:16 PM

November 2nd - Mavs/Spurs
Should be a good one. :fro

LEONARD

07-27-2006, 11:26 AM

Croshere / KVH for Martin? Sure...why not...I don't like the guy, but he's better than Croshere and KVH won't be here next season anyway. I don't care about money...Cuban will be fine :lol

Dampier / KVH for Martin? Nope...don't want to see that...

ponky

07-27-2006, 11:31 AM

Kenyon Martin may be over paid and overrated but Dampier is just plain garbage. A healthy Kenyon Martin is 10 times more productive than Erick Dampier.

HAHAHA!....well, at least you qualified your statement by using the word "healthy" which, while not a realistic expectation (look at k-mart's health status history), is a laudable effort at wishful thinking

btw, k-mart acts like an a-hole, reason enough to forget about this deal

AFBlue

07-27-2006, 11:43 AM

Martin isn't going anywhere, anytime soon. Right now his Trade Value is in the toilet after a couple injury-riddled seasons and the Nuggets would be nuts to settle for the expiring contract of Austin Croshere and his twin brother KVH. Most likely, they'll start K-Mart alongside Marcus Camby and bring Nene off the bench. If K-Mart is healthy, he'll produce decent enough numbers that trading him will actually return value and won't be a salary-dumping move. After all, his trade value can't get any lower, so what do the Nuggets have to lose by waiting?

Dalhoop

07-27-2006, 05:10 PM

They stand to lose the same thing that the Mavs could lose, team chemistry.

AFBlue

07-28-2006, 10:02 AM

They stand to lose the same thing that the Mavs could lose, team chemistry.

If K-Mart is starting, he's not affecting team chemistry. I think he'll be gone eventually, but the Nuggets will want to get max value for him in return...no matter how bad his relationship w/ George Karl.

He's a classic "bad contract" for "bad contract" trade for two players looking for a change of scenery. Warriors Troy Murphy + cheap young guy comes to mind.

But like I said, they're not making any moves until his trade value climbs, even just a little bit...no matter how it affects chemistry.

Extra Stout

07-28-2006, 10:41 AM

1. Phoenix
2. Dallas
3. San Antonio

my2sons

07-28-2006, 01:41 PM

Mavs
great, with a small upgrade

SpurS
- lost defensive center, rebounder
- who will rebound
- who will guard Nowitzki
- who will guard Shaq

I would think a healthy duncan can cover most of these scenarious, and albeit, nowitzki would pressure duncan defensively a healthy duncan will cause all kinds of problems at the other end. Duncan is taking the summer off is nowtizki working this summer, that could definitely add to the equation.

AFBlue

07-28-2006, 03:31 PM

Mavs
great, with a small upgrade

SpurS
- lost defensive center, rebounder
- who will rebound
- who will guard Nowitzki
- who will guard Shaq

Heeeeeyyyyyyy. Got to address your concerns real quick. You're worried about our defense and rebounding? If there's anything the Spurs do best it's teach the fundamentals of Defense and Rebounding.

And I wouldn't totally agree that we lost defense...just "half-court" defense. We had two slow centers that clogged the lane in the half court, but how many points got scored on us in transition? Elson will help w/ that, Butler will be the clogger, and both of them will improve defensively when standing next to Tim Duncan...I mean who wouldn't?

As far as rebounding is concerned, I agree with you about replacing Nazr's Offensive Rebounding, but the guy was uncanny. We'll miss that for sure, but I got to think that Butler will be parked under the basket enough to get some Rebounds. His "per 40 minute" numbers are solid (10 RPG).

The one thing that both MUST come with is "hustle". Nazr always gave his best and I expect nothing less from these two.

Defensively, Butler has the mass to handle Shaq, but honestly who really "guards" Shaq besides Yao Ming. We'll front him and double etc. As far as Nowitzki is concerned, my personal opinion is to focus on other components of the Mavs (Howard, Terry, Stack) and "let" Nowitzki get his 35 or 40....worked w/ Amare and Kobe.

mabber

07-28-2006, 04:07 PM

I would think a healthy duncan can cover most of these scenarious, and albeit, nowitzki would pressure duncan defensively a healthy duncan will cause all kinds of problems at the other end. Duncan is taking the summer off is nowtizki working this summer, that could definitely add to the equation.

It should help Duncan but it won't hurt Dirk. Dirk is a big time gym rat. If he's not playing, he's shooting all year around. Plus, he has his own personal coach/trainer that he works with most of the offseason. He's very used to playing and/or practicing year around. Now if he gets hurt playing for Germany...that's another story.

leemajors

07-28-2006, 05:02 PM

duncan took last summer off too.

Big Dee Chi-Born

07-28-2006, 05:13 PM

I would think a healthy duncan can cover most of these scenarious, and albeit, nowitzki would pressure duncan defensively a healthy duncan will cause all kinds of problems at the other end. Duncan is taking the summer off is nowtizki working this summer, that could definitely add to the equation.

Tim Duncan not playing in Adidas would be invaluable to his health. Have you noticed how Tim started getting all these nagging foot and knee injuries once he started wearing Adidas? It's not just him either it's T-Mac, KG, and Kobe's knee troubles started back when he was wearing Adidas. It's a bad look for Timmy. :hang

clambake

07-28-2006, 05:54 PM

Are you serious Big Dee? DEATH TO ADIDAS!!!!!!!

Everyone burn your shoes now!!!!!

DEATH TO ANY STORE THAT SELLS ADIDAS.

mabber

07-28-2006, 06:16 PM

Nikos

07-28-2006, 06:30 PM

mabber

07-28-2006, 06:35 PM

If the Spurs rebound reasonably against Dallas they can beat them. A healthy Phoenix to me is potentially a more dangerous team. Obvious Dallas is a huge threat, but I don't even see them as the better team, nor worse really. They are about even, and I actually think the Spurs have more POWER at the Top (Spurs Big Three is greater than Dallas).

I really don't understand why some of you feel that Phoenix is a bigger threat than Dallas. The Suns don't even try to play defense. I'd think that very point would turn you off to the Suns (in the playoffs). ESPECIALLY, Spurs fans since your team is built around playing solid D. Not a big deal, but It's just strange to me that a Spurs fan would be more concerned about an offensive team that doesn't play defense.

Nikos

07-28-2006, 06:53 PM

I really don't understand why some of you feel that Phoenix is a bigger threat than Dallas. The Suns don't even try to play defense. I'd think that very point would turn you off to the Suns (in the playoffs). ESPECIALLY, Spurs fans since your team is built around playing solid D. Not a big deal, but It's just strange to me that a Spurs fan would be more concerned about an offensive team that doesn't play defense.

They have the tools to play solid defense. Not great, but good enough considering they could be a historically elite offensive team if Amare is healthy (and Nash/Marion of course). Dallas wasn't exactly an awesome team on D either, just very good, but not quite elite. Phoenix can get close to that IMO, with better offense.

AFBlue

07-28-2006, 09:27 PM

Do ya'll think Duncan's foot injury had any effect on the outcome of the Spur's season? They still got the best record even though they weren't playing him as many minutes and he looked as good as ever in the playoffs to me (he was easily the best player on the court in the Spurs/Mavs series). He was kinda gassed in the OT of game 7 but I think that was more a product of the Spurs having to play so hard to come back from the big, early game, deficit.

Honestly, I think that Duncan's health problems all season long did affect the Spurs in the playoffs. I think it has to do w/ the way a team plays. Tony took the team over offensively during the regular season, but when Duncan came alive in the playoffs Tony never seemed to get into his groove. With Duncan healthy all season and Tony figuring out when to use his speed, quickness I think the Spurs could've been even better offensively last season. Makes me excited about next season...a healthy Tim, healthy Manu, and improving Tony. Gotta love it. Go Spurs!

John McEnroe

07-28-2006, 10:08 PM

If the Spurs rebound reasonably against Dallas they can beat them. A healthy Phoenix to me is potentially a more dangerous team. Obvious Dallas is a huge threat, but I don't even see them as the better team, nor worse really. They are about even, and I actually think the Spurs have more POWER at the Top (Spurs Big Three is greater than Dallas).

YOU CANNNOT BE SERIOUS!!!!!!!! MAVS ALREADY BEAT PHOENIX YOU IDIOT!!!!!!!!!! MAVS ARE BETTER THAN THE SPURS DESPITE GETTING SCREWED BY THE REFS!!!!!!!!! :madrun :madrun

THE REFS WERE WORSE THAN THE ONES DOING MY MATCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!! :madrun :madrun

AAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGHHHHHHH!!!!! :madrun :madrun

my2sons

07-29-2006, 07:34 AM

ponky

07-29-2006, 12:09 PM

makes you wonder how many more games would have been won

I wonder the same thing had the Mavs hadn't had 3-4 players with injuries the last couple of weeks of the season. Anyway, I think both teams are still about even and I think the Suns hype is overrated. Sure, they CAN become a bit better defensively, but will they? Someone above pointed out how the Mavs became a bit better defensively while still not great at it, they are better than the run and gun style under Nelly but that only happened with AJ's arrival...D'Antoni is still D'Antoni, hyper and crazy as ever about run and gun ball. The Suns had some crazy leads for awhile in the Mavs/Suns series but they can't play that way the entire game, just like the Mavs couldn't back in the days of Nelly. The Suns will still be a great team but Nash's prediction that they can win a championship with their offensive style of play will never come true.

furry_spurry

07-29-2006, 12:55 PM

makes you wonder how many more games would have been won
And how many games might the Suns have won with a healthy Amare? Every team has injuries.

The Spurs started the season 40-10, even with Tim's foot problems. I don't think they would have won many more games early on even with a healthy Tim. Ironically, when Tim's foot got better was when the Spurs were losing games late in the season. I agree with the person who said the team never quite meshed. Between injuries and playing musical chairs with the line-up from the all-star break all the way through the play-offs, the team and several of the players never got into a proper rhythm.