Andrea Yates Not Guilty/insanity

[ObiwanGinobili]

12:05 pm - Andrea Yates found not guilty by reason that she is a fucking nutjob.

She will now spend the rest of her life in a state mental facility with her fellow nutjobs.

Apparently she will stay in custody at the state looney bin untill she is "ready and able" to rejoin society.

Pretty much everyone thinks that will never happen.

[Kori Ellis]

She should have received the death penalty.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Bulshit. She deserves nothing better than death.

[Taco]

12:05 pm - Andrea Yates found not guilty by reason that she is a fucking nutjob.

She will now spend the rest of her life in a state mental facility with her fellow nutjobs.

Apparently she will stay in custody at the state looney bin untill she is "ready and able" to rejoin society.

Pretty much everyone thinks that will never happen.

Kill that crazy bitch :soapbox: :cuss :frying: :nutkick: :makemyday :hang

[midgetonadonkey]

She deserves torture before death. Death is too easy a punishment for that bitch.

[1Parker1]

Apparently she will stay in custody at the state looney bin untill she is "ready and able" to rejoin society

Are you kidding me? So if in 10, 15, 20 years she's deemed "healthy and normal" she'll be out free?

[clambake]

If doctors feel it's in her best interest, she'll eventually be set free.

[atxrocker]

i just read about this. what a fucking joke. that bitch deserves to be fucking fryed. the legal system is a joke for this decision. how the fuck does a bitch get to kill her kids and get away with it? i sincerely hope she burns in hell for this shit.

[SpursWoman]

If doctors feel it's in her best interest, she'll eventually be set free.

Who gives a shit what her *best interests* are? She murdered innocent children ... ironically, those children who's best interests were her responsibility.

[1Parker1]

I don't get it...why are people so sure that doctors won't set her free eventually and deem her mentally stable? She's not that old and has a lot of time left.

[Pistons < Spurs]

Am I the only one who doesn't get the father? How could he be supporting her? If I'm him, I'm killing her, not teling the media how proud he is of the jury and their decision. I just don't get it.

[TheRage]

she should not die. she should not be in a fucking mental institute either. they need to put her in general population. If she was not crazy before she did it, she probably turned in lock up.
Inmates tortured her everyday, making baby noises and cries, and yelling things like "no mommy" "please"..etc. that is what she needs till she dies.

[Ocotillo]

If doctors feel it's in her best interest, she'll eventually be set free.

Once the doctors have made that determination, a judge will then have to rule for her to be released. Down here in Houston they had the verdict on live radio and the attorney analysts said she would never be released even though there is this "possibility".

[ObiwanGinobili]

I don't get it...why are people so sure that doctors won't set her free eventually and deem her mentally stable? She's not that old and has a lot of time left.

Because apparently everytime they have her on stable meds and she is starting to become more "sane" she comes to a sane person;s realization of what she did and she starts flipping out and having nightmares and going all whacko all over again.
Thats been her cycle since she was 1st jailed so I doubt that will ever end.

[Yonivore]

Apparently she will stay in custody at the state looney bin untill she is "ready and able" to rejoin society.

Pretty much everyone thinks that will never happen.
I wouldn't be so sure. Her "insanity" defense hinged on a diagnosis of post-partum psychosis which, if she doesn't get knocked up again, is prevented.

Look for her to be "cured" in the next couple of years.

Nice job by the defense team. Stupid jurors.

[ObiwanGinobili]

Am I the only one who doesn't get the father? How could he be supporting her? If I'm him, I'm killing her, not teling the media how proud he is of the jury and their decision. I just don't get it.


I think he feels some culpability in this for his denial of her having any problems prior to the killings. Friends and family stated that she was pretty much vacant and emotionless for months prior to her murdering her children. She was i nthe hospitol for one of those 7 day stints but that was about it.
He was teliing people she was "ok".

[ashbeeigh]

I didn't want to say anything to the contrary on everyone's "She should fry for the things she did to her kids" while this was still in the club, and this is my first post in the politics forum, so please no one eat me alive here either:

I whole heartedly believe in the ngbri defense and verdict (as most people would probably guess) and through proper treatment she should get better. (and if she doesn't get knocked up again...:lol) If any of the people who thinks she should die for her actions look at the diagnostics of a postpartum depression/psychosis they'd see she fit most, if not all the criteria. One of the main reasons she was found guilty during the first trial was because the psychologist/psychiatrist wasn't avaible to provide the expertise on the very topic which provided the not guilty by reason of insanity verdict.

[boutons_]

Have any of you been under extreme stress, like a bitter divorce or attacked and harassed continually by colleague that your job is in jeopardy, that drives you nearly crazy? can't sleep, can't find your balance, have violent thoiughts? Ever heard of "crimes of passion" ?

Have any of you women been so chemically unbalanced by PMS that your monthly insanity drives everybody around you crazy for days? Or menopausal conditons? And do you even remember how fucked up you were during your period? More likely, your insanity is blanked out, and/or something to laugh about. Yeah, right.

Now take that PMS/menopaual insanity and slide it way down the chemical unblance scale, and you end up with a Yates.

What cool, sane, healthy mother would drown here own kids?

Just as I thought, the "religious" "Christian" revival supposedly sweeping the USA (it's not the first) is really Old Testament, fire-and-brimstone, eye-for-an-eye, high dudgeon vengeance, witch-burning, self-righteous bloviating, not New Testament Christian compassion and love.

The lady was/is nuts with depression. So you self-righteous asshole Cotton Mathers want to burn the witch? She knew, in her sane periods, that she was nuts, her husband knew that, her doctors new that. The failures were by people all around her.

Lock her up and try to fix her chemistry. Even tie off her tubes.

2 NYC policemen were convicted of murdering a bunch of people for hire by the mob. They walk free, statute of limitations. No outrage here.

10's of 1000s of innocent Iraqis are dead because dickhead and Rove chose to lie their way and the USA into an unnecesary war. No outrage here.

[Kori Ellis]

If any of the people who thinks she should die for her actions look at the diagnostics of a postpartum depression/psychosis they'd see she fit most, if not all the criteria.

I don't really care about the diagnostics of it. Psychiatry is mostly a crock. Anyone can get upset, sad or whatever about anything and a psychiatrist can find that they fit into the criteria of some syndrome or disorder, then deem them "mentally unstable".

She killed her kids. I don't have any sort of sympathy for whatever she believes she was going through.

[ashbeeigh]

I don't really care about the diagnostics of it. Psychiatry is mostly a crock. Anyone can get upset, sad or whatever about anything and a psychiatrist can find that they fit into the criteria of some syndrome or disorder, then deem them "mentally unstable".


Okay, that's your opinion and I have mine about what I think she was going through. Different views make the world go 'round. I was never up for an argument about it.

[Kori Ellis]

Okay, that's your opinion and I have mine about what I think she was going through. Different views make the world go 'round. I was never up for an argument about it.

If you didn't want to argue about it, then you probably shouldn't have posted in the thread. That's kind of what the Political Forum is for.
:lol

[clambake]

Alot of people get upset, sad, whatever Kori, but they don't pop their cork. That is the fine line that seperates sanity from insanity.

This woman HAS TO BE INSANE.

[SpursWoman]

If postpartum depression was a rare ailment, I might buy it ... but sorry, it's not. IMO, that's a gigantic load of crap.

[ashbeeigh]

If you didn't want to argue about it, then you probably shouldn't have posted in the thread. That's kind of what the Political Forum is for.
:lol

I strongly believe in it, I just can never get my words around the thoughts to argue it. I'm open to everyones ideas on most politics, iraq, democrats, republicans, gas, africa, bird flu, what not, but I'm sure most people know, if they've read the oh shit! threads, I strongly believe in psychiatry and its daignostics, nothing would ever change it. I know a lot of people here think it's a load of crap and nothing will change their views. No point in arguing about it. She was found not guilty. Lo que pasa, pasa. If I come along anything about postpartum psychosis, chemically or diagnostically, I'll be sure to share it and bring my A, game and y'all bring your C game just to be even. :)

[SpursWoman]

And BTW, has anyone noticed how much boutons has been posting about PMS and a woman's period the last couple of days? Is it creeping anyone else out besides me?

:wtf :lol

[Kori Ellis]

Alot of people get upset, sad, whatever Kori, but they don't pop their cork. That is the fine line that seperates sanity from insanity.

This woman HAS TO BE INSANE.

Every person who "pops their cork" isn't insane or mentally unstable. Sometimes people just make the wrong decisions (crimes of passion). Sometimes people are just bad seeds (or whatever you want to say).

This country believes everyone is insane or has some sort of disorder and is just dying to overmedicate everyone.

I think a very small, small percentage of people are actually insane. Everyone else who cops insanity, depression, etc. are just people who CHOOSE not to handle life.

[SpursWoman]

I don't really care about the diagnostics of it. Psychiatry is mostly a crock. Anyone can get upset, sad or whatever about anything and a psychiatrist can find that they fit into the criteria of some syndrome or disorder, then deem them "mentally unstable".

She killed her kids. I don't have any sort of sympathy for whatever she believes she was going through.


Seriously. A case could be made for anyone who has ever killed anyone else ... because they are all off of their rockers. They'd have to be. But they are all getting life with no parole or the death penalty. Why should she be any different?

I'm all for equal opportunity lethal injection.

[clambake]

I agree with your "small percentage" theory.

Andrea Yates is a member of that group. I don't believe in people trying to cop an insanity plea because they momentarily flipped and cut their wifes head off.

To methodically kill your 5 children = insane.

[ashbeeigh]

Sometimes people are just bad seeds (or whatever you want to say).


A lot of things play into the "bad seed" thing. Environment, genetics, stress, etc.

[FromWayDowntown]

Technically, the jury found her not guilty of the crime of murder. They did that because they found that she lacked the ability to form the requisite mental state -- intent to kill -- to support a conviction for murder. The inability to form that mental state arose because they found that she was insance.

I think what she did is reprehensible, regardless of whether her intention was to kill her kids or not. But the law requires that the State prove intent to get a conviction for murder and this jury didn't believe that Andrea Yates had that intent when she killed her kids. I don't know enough about criminal procedure to know if the State asked the jury (or could have asked the jury) about the culpable mental states for other varieties of homicide -- manslaughter, criminally negligent homicide. I doubt it would have mattered because the jury's verdict seems to indicate a belief that Yates was detached from reality in some meaningful way when she killed the kids.

[Jekka]

I think he feels some culpability in this for his denial of her having any problems prior to the killings. Friends and family stated that she was pretty much vacant and emotionless for months prior to her murdering her children. She was i nthe hospitol for one of those 7 day stints but that was about it.
He was teliing people she was "ok".

He should feel some culpability. They knew another psychotic episode would probably happen if she got pregnant again - they should never have allowed another pregnancy to happen, I don't care if they had to abstain since they refused to use contraception - for her mental health if nothing else. She had plainly shown she was willing to hurt herself, so at the least they were willing to risk that in exchange for another child.


•Feb. 26, 1994: Noah Yates is born. Yates later tells doctors that shortly after the birth that Satan told her to get a knife and stab someone.

•Dec. 12, 1995: John Yates is born.

•Sept. 13, 1997: Paul Yates is born.

•Feb. 15, 1999: Luke Yates is born.

•June 16, 1999: Andrea Yates calls her husband at work and asks him to come home. He returns to find her shaking and crying.

•June 17, 1999: Yates overdoses on Trazodone, a prescription sleeping medicine given to her father after a stroke.

•June 18, 1999: Yates is transferred to Houston’s Methodist Hospital psychiatric unit and is diagnosed with a major depressive disorder.

•June 24, 1999: Yates is discharged from Methodist.

•July 20, 1999: Russell Yates wrestles knife away from his wife, who was holding it to her neck in the bathroom at her mother’s house.

•July 21, 1999: Yates is admitted to Memorial Spring Shadows Glen for psychiatric treatment and is prescribed Haldol, an anti-psychotic drug.

•Aug. 9, 1999: Yates is discharged from Memorial Spring Shadows Glen.

•Aug. 10, 1999: Yates begins daily outpatient care.

•Aug. 18, 1999: Psychiatrist Eileen Starbranch warns the Yates couple that having another child could trigger another psychotic episode.

•Nov. 30, 2000: Mary Yates is born. Link (http://www.khou.com/news/local/crime/stories/khou060726_ac_yatestimeline.659a215.html)


"If I'd known she was psychotic, we'd never have even considered having more kids," Yates told the Dallas Observer. Link (http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/special/drownings/3733316.html)
He'd been told at least twice about the psychosis, and I think the father shares some of the blame - for negligence if nothing else.

[ashbeeigh]

The birth of a child is supposed to make a new mother happy, but that is not always the way it works out. Emotional disturbances and psychiatric disorders after childbirth are so common that they have their own Latin-derived names: postpartum, postnatal, or puerperal disorders. Three kinds are generally recognized: baby blues, postpartum depression, and postpartum psychosis.

Baby blues appear in the first few days after childbirth and last a week or two at most. Common symptoms are crying spells, shifting moods, fatigue, restlessness, sadness, irritability, and loss of sleep and appetite. The prevalence of baby blues is difficult to judge, because the condition is vaguely defined and described in varying ways, but it is certainly common. One study found that nearly half of new mothers had the symptoms; others using stricter definitions have found lower rates.

This usually mild and brief upset does not deserve to be called a psychiatric disorder, but in about 15% of new mothers it deepens into a more serious and lasting postpartum depression. Women have a higher than average rate of hospital admissions for mood disorders in the two years after childbirth and especially in the first three months. Depressed mothers are weepy, anxious, and easily upset, exhausted but unable to sleep. They may have physical symptoms typical of anxiety as well ...

One out of 1,000 new mothers has a psychotic episode, usually in the first few weeks. It generally takes the form of severe depression or mania, with symptoms that include rapid mood changes, despair or elation, confusion, severe insomnia, and suicidal thoughts. Delusions and hallucinations often center on the baby; the mother may think that the baby is dead, a devil, doomed to a terrible fate, or destined for an exalted one.

In most cases, the mother's concerns about her child are more realistic, because depression itself makes them so ...

Mood fluctuations caused by the rapid hormonal change that occurs at childbirth are a possible source of postpartum disorders. ...

Postpartum disorders are sometimes considered a product of modern industrial society,...

Many other possible causes of postpartum disorders have been proposed, including poverty, single motherhood, unemployment, complications during pregnancy, and unwanted pregnancy. Some women may be physically exhausted; others may be overwhelmed and frightened by new responsibilities. ...


Women with postpartum depression also consistently complain of lacking support from others -- especially their husbands, whom they often describe as neglectful or unloving. A woman in an unhappy marriage may hope that the arrival of a child will change everything and become depressed when she is disappointed. ....


Studies of postpartum psychosis raise the question of whether postpartum reactions are a distinct type of psychiatric disorder. There is a high rate of psychiatric disorders and psychoses in the families of women with postpartum psychosis, and they themselves have a high rate of psychiatric disorders and psychosis (especially bipolar disorder). Half of them suffer a later psychotic reaction; researchers disagree on whether it is more likely to occur after the birth of a child. ...

The stress of pregnancy and childbirth may sometimes provoke a psychotic reaction that would not occur otherwise, but there is no proof that childbirth is associated with a distinct form of depression or mania. ...

Psychiatric drugs can be helpful as well, but their side effects must be kept in mind. ...

Recent research shows that both antidepressants and mood stabilizers can also prevent the development of postpartum disorders. In one controlled experiment, valproate prevented postpartum episodes in women with a history of bipolar disorder. In a study of women with a history of postpartum depression, only 7% of those who chose an antidepressant but 62% of those who took no drug relapsed after childbirth.

Electroconvulsive therapy (ECT) (Why?, I ask) is highly effective for severe depression or mania and can be safely administered a week after delivery. Patients are not supposed to drink liquids before undergoing ECT, but dehydration can be prevented with intravenous fluids if necessary.

Estrogen may also have some promise as a treatment. ...

Psychotherapy and self-help groups can also be useful. Interpersonal therapy (see Mental Health Letter, October 1993) ...

Being constantly alone with a baby is not good for any mother. Group therapy and self-help groups provide her with companionship, advice, the opportunity to help others, and the comfort of learning that her problems are not unique. ...

When a new mother must be hospitalized for severe depression or psychosis, caring for the child presents special problems. Usually the child is separated from the mother, for several reasons: the effects of her illness may be damaging to the child, the infant would be disruptive or harmed by the hospital environment, and the expense and logistical problems are too great.....

[Spurminator]

You can't really punish someone who is clinically insane, but there's also such a grey area between insanity and malice and I don't trust myself or the rest of the general public (jury) to determine which is which.

It's times like these when it's probably best to just let someone kill herself.

[Yonivore]

And BTW, has anyone noticed how much boutons has been posting about PMS and a woman's period the last couple of days? Is it creeping anyone else out besides me?

:wtf :lol
I have boutons on ignore...so, no.

[SpursWoman]

It's times like these when it's probably best to just let someone kill herself.



:tu :tu :lol

[SpursWoman]

I have boutons on ignore...so, no.


Good thing ... he seems obsessed with it for some reason these days. If he was 12 I might understand it, but given that he's almost twice my age ... it just seems particularly odd. :lol

[Yonivore]

Good thing ... he seems obsessed with it for some reason these days. If he was 12 I might understand it, but given that he's almost twice my age ... it just seems particularly odd. :lol
So, how have you been?

[boutons_]

SW, have you been on the victim side of PMS-fucked-up woman? :)

Seems like women want men to appreciate and understand women, but when men the make the effort, and even live through first-hand women's female specific experiences, and survive to talk about them, we get labelled as "creepy".

Just as we men all know, we're damned if we do, damned if we don't. :)

As Chris Rock jokes, men can't ever win with women, because men have a genetic need to be logical, while women don't. :)

[Kori Ellis]

PMS is just an excuse for women to bitch. :angel

[1Parker1]

PMS is just an excuse for women to bitch. :angel

:lmao Like we need an excuse...

[1Parker1]

As to the verdict of this case, I'll have to agree that Yates was probably insane. However, you have to look at the bigger picture; this woman drowned her FIVE children. That act is simply inexcusable as a human being. If you think about all the crazy people in the world who kill and commit horrible crimes, it can be argued that almost all of them have some sort of "mental diffienciecy" that drives them to commit those crimes if you use Phyciatry to back it up. Because no normal, sane person would commit those crimes.

In the case of Yates, what kind of quality of life will she be living at a mental institute? Especially if they say that it's probably not likely that she will ever get better or good enough to be a part of society. Sometimes killing a person who is that mentally unstable is the best solution.

[MannyIsGod]

With all the compassion that has been shown in this thread, it is amazing to me that the world is a place where events like this can happen.

[MannyIsGod]

As to the verdict of this case, I'll have to agree that Yates was probably insane. However, you have to look at the bigger picture; this woman drowned her FIVE children. That act is simply inexcusable as a human being. If you think about all the crazy people in the world who kill and commit horrible crimes, it can be argued that almost all of them have some sort of "mental diffienciecy" that drives them to commit those crimes if you use Phyciatry to back it up. Because no normal, sane person would commit those crimes.

In the case of Yates, what kind of quality of life will she be living at a mental institute? Especially if they say that it's probably not likely that she will ever get better or good enough to be a part of society. Sometimes killing a person who is that mentally unstable is the best solution.Where do you get that most people who kill are insane? I'd have to disagree with that entirely. Murders happen for lots of reasons, but I am positive (although I have nothing to back it up at this time because I haven't looked) that the majority of murders are not commited by people suffering from insanity.

Some people simply have a lower value of life. I would say that Americans in general don't have that high a value on life and that is one reason we have a high murder rate. People in this very thread have been calling to extinguish a life. We watch people die everyday. We hear the numbers of people dying in other places and it doesn't even cause us to blink.

That woman had severe issues. I don't know how bad they were, but I can believe that she wasn't well enough to be in full touch with reality. Killing her doesn't solve that. Anyone can sit there and say what she did is inexcuseable, but the bottom line is that people with far more training in the feild than anyone in this thread looked at the situation and decided that she had issues that few will ever experience. I don't get what killing her solves.

[1Parker1]

Where do you get that most people who kill are insane? I'd have to disagree with that entirely. Murders happen for lots of reasons, but I am positive (although I have nothing to back it up at this time because I haven't looked) that the majority of murders are not commited by people suffering from insanity.

Some people simply have a lower value of life. I would say that Americans in general don't have that high a value on life and that is one reason we have a high murder rate. People in this very thread have been calling to extinguish a life. We watch people die everyday. We hear the numbers of people dying in other places and it doesn't even cause us to blink.

That woman had severe issues. I don't know how bad they were, but I can believe that she wasn't well enough to be in full touch with reality. Killing her doesn't solve that. Anyone can sit there and say what she did is inexcuseable, but the bottom line is that people with far more training in the feild than anyone in this thread looked at the situation and decided that she had issues that few will ever experience. I don't get what killing her solves.


If you think about all the crazy people in the world who kill and commit horrible crimes, it can be argued that almost all of them have some sort of "mental diffienciecy" that drives them to commit those crimes if you use Phyciatry to back it up. Because no normal, sane person would commit those crimes.

If you re-read my post I never said I personally thought that most people who kill are insane...I said that if you use "Psychiatry" to back up evidence...almost any person who kills or commits a crime would be considered mentally unstable based on psychiatric theories and "evidence"

[Spurminator]

Manny stole my thunder.

If you accept insanity, what reason do we have to punish her? Is it our own lust for revenge?

[1Parker1]

I don't get what killing her solves.

And I don't get what locking her up in a mental institution the rest of her life solves. Especially if lawyers and those "Experts" already say that she will most likely never get good healthy enough to leave there. Also, say she does somehow get better, you think she'll be able to live with herself once she realizes she killed her FIVE children?

[1Parker1]

Manny stole my thunder.

If you accept insanity, what reason do we have to punish her? Is it our own lust for revenge?

Sadly that's probably true.

[MannyIsGod]

If you re-read my post I never said I personally thought that most people who kill are insane...I said that if you use "Psychiatry" to back up evidence...almost any person who kills or commits a crime would be considered mentally unstable based on psychiatric theories and "evidence"What I'm saying is that Psychaitry will say that most people are not insane. Having a mental disorder alone is not insanity. Being insane means that your mental disorder(s) are so severe that you cannot be held responsible for the crime you commited.

If the majority of murders were commited by insane individuals no one would be in jail.

[Spurminator]

And I don't get what locking her up in a mental institution the rest of her life solves.


Behavior/medical study, perhaps.

[Yonivore]

Behavior/medical study, perhaps.
I like the Guinea Pig scenario. I hope there's lot of electricity, needles, and scalpels involved. Maybe some kind of submersion therapy.

[Kori Ellis]

I don't get what killing her solves.


Among other things, it makes sure that she never gets out into society where someone could accidentally ask her to babysit.

[MannyIsGod]

And I don't get what locking her up in a mental institution the rest of her life solves. Especially if lawyers and those "Experts" already say that she will most likely never get good healthy enough to leave there. Also, say she does somehow get better, you think she'll be able to live with herself once she realizes she killed her FIVE children?If you have a better option, go ahead and voice it. But killing someone because you don't feel that institutionalization will solve anything isn't the way the death penalty is used.

[MannyIsGod]

Among other things, it makes sure that she never gets out into society where someone could accidentally ask her to babysit.I'm fairly certain thats not a likely scenario.

[Kori Ellis]

I'm fairly certain thats not a likely scenario.

I'm fairly certain that you didn't realize I was being sarcastic.

[Yonivore]

I'm fairly certain thats not a likely scenario.
...fairly certain... doesn't cut it with this parent.

[MannyIsGod]

...fairly certain... doesn't cut it with this parent.

I'm fairly certain that you didn't realize I was being sarcastic.
:lol


I wonder why I can't pick up on sarcasm of that sort in this forum?

[exstatic]

They need to put here in a small padded cell with one of those 6X6 inch thick glass windows for observation, and a tray slot at the bottom, and just feed and medicate her for life, and never let her out of that cell, EVER.

Also, if they ever DO decide to let her out, I think forcable sterilization should be required. That bitch should NEVER EVER have another baby. She forfeited that right.

[Guru of Nothing]

Here's an interesting read for those so inclined.

Slate.com (http://www.slate.com/?id=2063086)


Women do not, by and large, make terrific criminals. In the United States, women commit only two crimes as frequently as men. The first is shoplifting. The second is the murder of their own children. Andrea Yates, the Houston mother whose trial for the murders of three of her children ends today, and Marilyn Lemak, the Chicago nurse recently convicted of killing her three children, are not at all statistical anomalies. Somehow, women—who commit less than 13 percent of all violent crimes in the United States—commit about 50 percent of all parental murders. Why do so many women direct their most violent impulses toward their own children? While it may once have been true that women were the sole—and often frustrated—caregivers of small children, mothers now work, yet they don't kill their colleagues; they kill their babies. Why? Feminists and legal researchers tend to claim that such women must be extremely ill. Judges and juries mostly agree, with the result being that women who kill their children in this country are disproportionately hospitalized or treated, while men who do so are disproportionately jailed, even executed.

According to a recent book entitled Mothers Who Kill Their Children, by Michelle Oberman—a professor of law at DePaul University—juries are loath to hand down murder convictions for mothers accused of killing their own children. Such juries are even more reluctant to impose draconian penalties. A 1969 study by Dr. Phillip Resnick, the "father" of maternal filicide (the murder of a child by a parent), found that while mothers convicted of murdering their children were hospitalized 68 percent of the time and imprisoned 27 percent of the time, fathers convicted of killing their children were sentenced to prison or executed 72 percent of the time and hospitalized only 14 percent of the time. More recent British studies by P.T. D'Orban support these findings. And although the United States does not have any formal equivalent to England's Infanticide Act—which codifies a sort of postpartum depression defense—American juries and judges have taken it upon themselves to excuse and treat most of these mothers for mental illness while condemning the fathers as violent criminals.

The scholars, the media, and most of the studies do their best to persuade us that these murderous moms really are ill. Perhaps it comforts us to believe that anyone who violates the sacred mother-child bond is simply crazy; it would be unimaginable if these mothers were making rational criminal choices. And since women are not violent in other contexts, most scholars, including Oberman, argue that the majority of maternal murderers suffer from depression, postpartum psychoses, and other mental afflictions. But no one has put forth an analogous medical theory to explain whether fathers who kill their offspring are also depressed, isolated, or psychotic.

The problem with the "illness" theory is that it only goes partway toward explaining why women kill their babies. Illness may explain how some women eventually snap and behave violently. But it doesn't begin to explain why they direct this madness so disproportionately toward their own offspring. Even taking into account that some small fraction of the mental illnesses associated with maternal filicide—most notably postpartum depression—are triggered by the births themselves, the illness theory doesn't explain why mothers suffering from other mental illnesses, or who aren't ill at all, act out with their own children rather than strangers. The illness theory doesn't explain why we don't consider fathers who kill their children to be sick. Pulling murderous mothers out of the field of ordinary criminology and viewing them as fundamentally different raises more questions than it answers. Perhaps murderous mothers are no crazier than fathers. Perhaps murderous fathers are even crazier than mothers. Either way, the failure to view these crimes as morally or legally equivalent reflects a more central legal truth: We still view children as the mother's property. Since destroying one's own property is considered crazy while destroying someone else's property is criminal, women who murder their own children are sent to hospitals, whereas their husbands are criminals, who go to jail or the electric chair.

Why does the legal system treat a mother who kills someone else's child as though she were a sociopathic killer while showing mercy toward a mom who drowns her own? For the same reason the law treats individuals who burn down other people's houses as criminals and institutionalizes those who burn down their own. Men are disproportionately jailed for filicide not because they are more evil than women but because we believe they have harmed a woman's property—as opposed to their own.

The Numbers
Children under the age of 5 in the United States are more likely to be killed by their parents than anyone else. Contrary to popular mythology, they are rarely killed by a sex-crazed stranger. FBI crime statistics show that in 1999 parents were responsible for 57 percent of these murders, with family friends and acquaintances accounting for another 30 percent and other family members accounting for 8 percent. Crime statistics further reveal that of the children under 5 killed from 1976 to 1999, 30 percent were murdered by their mothers while 31 percent were killed by their fathers. And while the strangers, acquaintances, and other family members who kill children skew heavily toward males (as does the entire class of murderers), children are as likely to be murdered by their fathers as by their mothers.

The Newspapers
Doug Saunders observed recently in the Toronto newspaper the Globe and Mail that the media is complicit in treating maternal killers as newsworthy and paternal killers as ordinary criminals. Newspapers currently following every motion in the Andrea Yates trial completely ignored last month's Los Angeles filicide, in which Adair Garcia killed five of his six children by asphyxiating them with a barbeque he'd lit in the living room. He did it to punish his estranged wife, who had moved out a week earlier. Coverage of Ukranian immigrant Nikolay Soltys, who killed his pregnant wife and 3-year-old son last August, was less focused on his mental state than his dramatic flight and capture. Why is Yates a front-page story while Garcia is disregarded? To paraphrase Michelle Oberman: Murdering mothers are just different.

The Motives
The same studies that have been used to prove that murderous mothers are "sick" can as readily be used to support the theory that both mothers and fathers consider children to be a woman's property. Social science research and FBI crime statistics show that men and women differ in the reasons they kill their children, in the methods they employ, and in the ways they behave following such murders. None of this data proves that fathers are crazier than mothers. Much of it suggests that we all simply believe children "belong" to their moms.

Researchers, building on the work of Phillip Resnick, have shown that women tend to kill their own offspring for one of several reasons: because the child is unwanted; out of mercy; as a result of some mental illness in the mother; in retaliation against a spouse; as a result of abuse. Frequent themes are that they themselves deserved to be punished, that killing the children would be an altruistic or loving act, or that children need to be "erased" in order to save or preserve a relationship. Contrast this with the reasons men kill their children: Most frequently—like Garcia or Soltys—they kill because they feel they have lost control over their finances, or their families, or the relationship, or out of revenge for a perceived slight or infidelity. The consistent idea is that women usually kill their children either because they are angry at themselves or because they want to destroy that which they created, whereas more often than not, men kill their children to get back at a woman—to take away what she most cherishes.

According to a recent article by Elizabeth Fernandez in the San Francisco Chronicle, studies further reveal that fathers are far more likely to commit suicide after killing their children. Mothers attempt post-filicide suicide but rarely succeed. Some scholars suggest this is because mothers tend to view their children as mere extensions of themselves and that these homicides are in fact suicidal.

The Murders
Perhaps more revealing than the differences in why they kill their offspring are the differences between how fathers and mothers do so. For one thing, parental murderers tend to be highly physical. According to a 1988 survey done by the U.S. Justice Department, while 61 percent of all murder defendants used a gun in 1988, only 20 percent of the parents who killed their children used one. Children were drowned and shaken, beaten, poisoned, stabbed, and suffocated. These methods betray a certain "craziness" in both genders—they betray an intense passion and a lack of planning. But a study by the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children shows that fathers are far more violent. And mothers frequently dispose of the corpses in what researchers call a "womblike" fashion. Bodies are swaddled, submerged in water, or wrapped in plastic. Moreover, the NCMEC study showed that while the victims of maternal killings are almost always found either in or close to the home, fathers will, on average, dispose of the bodies hundreds of miles away. All these behaviors suggest that women associate these murders with themselves, their homes, and their bodies

None of the arguments here assumes that there is no such thing as postpartum depression or, in rarer cases, postpartum psychosis—a deep break from reality that affects less than one in 500 new mothers. Andrea Yates is actually a good example of someone who was overdetermined to experience some kind of psychotic break that would end tragically. But Yates is only one of hundreds of mothers who kill every year, and while complete psychotic breaks explain why some of this homicidal rage and violence is turned upon one's own children, it doesn't account for either the staggering numbers of maternal homicides or for society's leniency toward women in these cases. The property theory does provide these answers. Women still believe that they have sole dominion over so little property that arson and armed robbery and rape make no intuitive sense to them. But the destruction and control of something deemed to be a woman's sole property sends a powerful message about who's really in charge, and this message hasn't changed since the time of Jason and Medea.

It would, of course, help if we could stop thinking of children as anyone's property. It does nothing to advance the feminist cause to simply assume that all mothers who kill their children must necessarily be crazy. It will do a good deal to advance the cause of children's rights if we begin to consider them as legal entities in and of themselves.

[Gatita]

I whole heartedly believe in the ngbri defense and verdict (as most people would probably guess) and through proper treatment she should get better. .


That might be true, but she will never be cured of her "illness". She will for the rest of her life be on meds and as soon as she stops taking them for a duration she will revert to the same old deal.

IMO, they should have medicated her while in prison. She doesn't deserve the comforts of a State Hospital.


If postpartum depression was a rare ailment, I might buy it ... but sorry, it's not. IMO, that's a gigantic load of crap.

Postpartum Depression happens, but it should not be used as an excuse for a violent crime and/or other actions. People need to own up and take responsiblity for themselves. They are alot of resources/organizations out there who are willing and able to help.

[ChumpDumper]

Is it up to the doctors or the judge to determine whether she can be released?

If it's the doctors - there might be something to worry about. Hopefully she gets her tubes tued if nothing else.

If it's the judge, we have nothing to worry about. No Texas judge who is elected to his post could possibly let her go free.

[Mr. Peabody]

That might be true, but she will never be cured of her "illness". She will for the rest of her life be on meds and as soon as she stops taking them for a duration she will revert to the same old deal.

IMO, they should have medicated her while in prison. She doesn't deserve the comforts of a State Hospital.



Postpartum Depression happens, but it should not be used as an excuse for a violent crime and/or other actions. People need to own up and take responsiblity for themselves. They are alot of resources/organizations out there who are willing and able to help.

I agree. It's about damn time that the mentally ill quit shirking their responsibilities and take the logical steps to make themselves better.

Damn you Matt Lauer, Tom Cruise knew what he was talking about!!!!

http://www.andpop.com/images/TomCruiseJune242005bmuoiwyhk.jpg

Next thing you know, the mentally retarded will want special treatment in court as well.

I say, live up to your responsibilities people!!

[ObiwanGinobili]

there is a big differnence between post partum depression (happens alot) and post partum phsycosis (rare - nad makes you insane).

Andrea Yates had post partum phsycosis.

[Mr. Peabody]

there is a big differnence between post partum depression (happens alot) and post partum phsycosis (rare - nad makes you insane).

Andrea Yates had post partum phsycosis.

Quit boring us with the facts of the case. We want revenge!!!

[Yonivore]

Quit boring us with the facts of the case. We want revenge!!!
Not revenge, justice. And, the certainty she will never again have the opportunity to do this again.

http://www.chelationtherapyonline.com/anatomy/images/top.yates.children.jpg

[Mr. Peabody]

Not revenge, justice. And, the certainty she will never again have the opportunity to do this again.

http://www.chelationtherapyonline.com/anatomy/images/top.yates.children.jpg

Justice...vengeance...whatever, it's all the same to some people.

[Yonivore]

Justice...vengeance...whatever, it's all the same to some people.
But, not to everyone.

[Mr. Peabody]

But, not to everyone.

Thank god.

[Crookshanks]

To go back to the husband - I saw his interview with Matt Lauer this morning and that guy is almost as nutty as Andrea. He said he was disappointed that charges were ever brought against Andrea in the first place! And he said that what's important was Andrea's quality of life for the rest of her life. Can you believe that?!

I wonder if he's so happy about the insanity verdict because no one would ever believe it if Andrea said he had something to do with it. Let's face it, he got rid of his kids and his wife in one fell swoop - and now he has a new, younger, prettier wife and he gets to start all over again! Kinda scary isn't it?

[SpursWoman]

Quit boring us with the facts of the case. We want revenge!!!


If you're referring to me, I suppose reading doesn't fall into your "facts of the case." I said that post-partum depression as an excuse to murder your four children was a crock of shit, because millions of women suffer from this to a certain degree and don't fucking kill anyone because of it ... which is what ashbeeigh referred to it as. If it was post-partum psychosis ... whatever. I never said that I didn't think that bitch wasn't seriously crazy ... how could anyone possibly believe she's not?

I really don't give a rats ass where she spends the rest of her life, whether it's a short rest of her life or a long one, as long as someone removes any remote possibly of that woman ever becoming pregnant again.

Or wait. Maybe not ... because that would be like, violating her rights or something. Right?

[Mr. Peabody]

I never said that I didn't think that bitch wasn't seriously crazy ... how could anyone possibly believe she's not?

I really don't give a rats ass where she spends the rest of her life, whether it's a short rest of her life or a long one, as long as someone removes any remote possibly of that woman ever becoming pregnant again.

Or wait. Maybe not ... because that would be like, violating her rights or something. Right?

Not at all. I am on board with Justice Holmes' opinion in Buck v. Bell. The mandatory sterilization of the dregs of society is long overdue -- one generation of seriously crazy bitches is enough.

[Yonivore]

Not at all. I am on board with Justice Holmes' opinion in Buck v. Bell. The mandatory sterilization of the dregs of society is long overdue -- one generation of seriously crazy bitches is enough.
How "Chinese" of you. Define "dregs."

[Mr. Peabody]

How "Chinese" of you.

Are you saying that I have a little penis?


Define "dregs."

They are matted ropes of hair which will form by themselves if the hair is allowed to grow without the use of brushes, combs, razors or scissors for a long period of time.

No, seriously, by "dregs" I mean the "undesirables" of society. You know -- retards, crazies, gays, Mexicans, Ann Coulter....(OK, so only one of these is actually undesirable)

[SpursWoman]

one generation of seriously crazy bitches is enough.


Four dead children are enough.

[SpursWoman]

Are you saying that I have a little penis?



:lmao

[Yonivore]

Are you saying that I have a little penis?
I have no interest in knowing.

They are matted ropes of hair which will form by themselves if the hair is allowed to grow without the use of brushes, combs, razors or scissors for a long period of time.

No, seriously, by "dregs" I mean the "undesirables" of society. You know -- retards, crazies, gays, Mexicans, Ann Coulter....
And you think this President has acted extra-constitutionally?

[Yonivore]

Four dead children are enough.
It was five.

[Mr. Peabody]

And you think this President has acted extra-constitutionally?

Ummm...what?

That's pretty random.

[SpursWoman]

It was five.



But it only took 1 to be enough. I wouldn't promote mandatory sterilization across the board, but in this specific instance I'm fairly certain she has proven to be a tremendous threat to any future children she might have, medication or not....which I wouldn't trust completely anyway.

[Yonivore]

But it only took 1 to be enough. I wouldn't promote mandatory sterilization across the board, but in this specific instance I'm fairly certain she has proven to be a tremendous threat to any future children she might have, medication or not....which I wouldn't trust completely anyway.
And, yet, there are some that would look you in the eye and with a straight face tell you she could be cured and become a productive member of society again.